If the marriage of conservative Christianity and the Republican Party had a matchmaker, it was the Rev. Jerry Falwell, who diedtoday in Lynchburg, Va., at age 73. His Moral Majority became the foundation of the religious right that has so influenced American politics for nearly three decades. His significance was not diminished even by the frequent controversies in which he found himself — such when he said after Sept. 11 that the ACLU, "abortionists," gay rights and the courts had "helped this happen."
For example, though John McCain counted Falwell among the "agents of intolerance" in the GOP in 2000, McCain concluded last year that he would need Falwell if he wanted to win the White House in 2008.
It will be interesting to see how Falwell is eulogized in the coming days, then who rises among social conservatives to take his prominent place in politics.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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It will be interesting to see how Falwell is eulogized in the coming days, then who rises among social conservatives to take his prominent place in politics.Posted by Rhonda Holman
What’s really going to be interesting is who from the Republican presidential lineup is going to grandstand the most at Falwell’s funeral. I predict we’re going to see a race among the radical-conservative candidates, each trying to outdo each other in claiming Falwell’s “legacy.”
That would be sad indeed.
I have my differences with Falwell, but the man had guts.
Many Baptists have never forgiven Falwell for working so hard to bridge the gaps between the faiths, for political ends:
“In an editorial in the Jan. 15, 1988, issue of Christianity Today, author Terry Muck noted Falwells radical, ground-breaking ecumenism:
“Perhaps Falwells greatest accomplishment, however, was getting Protestants, Catholics, and Jews to work together on common causes. The Moral Majority is a coalition of groups that heretofore had let theological differences stand in the way of coordinated activity on shared concerns like abortion and pornography. It stands as a model of ecumenicity of the best sortan agreement to work together on issues without trying simply to gloss over theological differences.”
The forgoing is lifted from a Fundamentalist web page that attacks Falwell on this point:
http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_falwell.html
As a Catholic, I respect Falwell. I don’t always agree with the man, but he showed true courage.Falwell was far from “intolerant” — the truth is, Falwell was one of the most tolerant religious leaders in history, when it comes to mending fences and building relationships with other faiths.
IMO, anyone who says they know anyone’s eternal fate is arrogant beyond belief and so ignorant that they don’t know they are ignorant.
That was supposed to be on the open thread where Falwell’s death is also being discussed. It’s there now too.
I certainly won’t miss this hate monger, I’m just surprised he outlived his ideological buddy Phelps.
What’s that smell? Oh, its me.
I won’t miss him. He’s part of the reason why the line separating church and state is so blurred now.
“Falwell was far from “intolerant” — the truth is, Falwell was one of the most tolerant religious leaders in history” – Econ101
You cannot be serious.
Isn’t he the idiot who railed against the Teletubbies a few years back? Granted they’re quite annoying, but I think he was reading a little too much into a kiddie show…
Yes, that was Falwell. As I recall he also said 9/11, Katrina, etc were all God’s punishment.
I’ll probably kick the hornet’s nest by writing this, but oh well.
Falwell & Co.’s contribution is reminding Christians that it is perfectly acceptable to vote their moral convictions. And why shouldn’t Christians do exactly that? Non-Christians do so, and are not castigated for doing so. I need not leave my faith behind me when I step in the voting booth.
Does that “blur” the line between church and state? Perhaps, but the line was always more than a little fuzzy. The idea that there is a clear demarcation between the two, with no contact and no interaction, is a modern contrivance. Reality is never that simple; it’s not surprising that a religious people have belief reflected in their public institutions. That has not in the least discouraged the practice of any and all religious belief in the US; on the contrary, no where else on the planet is so tolerant, and here, we celebrate that diversity of faith. It is that essentially Judeo-Christian heritage that makes such tolerance possible. Most other faiths have been far less tolerant.
As to what others thought of Falwell – well, Christ said that the world would hate you if you lived by his model. Falwell no doubt believed that the fact that so many vehemently hated him was evidence he must be doing something right.
Where he will spend eternity is God’s judgement, not ours. Those who presume to know are, as Outlander noted, both unbelieveably ignorant and unconscienably arrogant.
He did take a stance against Homosexuality and other issues. He was abiding by the interpretation of the Bible as he others saw it.
Let’s not spit on the man’s grave. He’s at peace with his maker and the wisdom of the Lord fills him up with the glory of God.
I propose that Larry Flynt be the keynote eulagist. Falwell was friggin nuts…just like Robertson and Dobson. It is scary that these guys can get people to follow them.
“Let’s not spit on the man’s grave. He’s at peace with his maker and the wisdom of the Lord fills him up with the glory of God.
Oh, please!
Yeah Mary, that’s right. The typical female response like it means something, “Oh Please!”
Guess what Mary, it doesn’t mean anything and if want to spit on the man’s grave, go ahead. It’s what you will be remembered for and reminded.
If he’d had his way, Jerry Falwell would have been America’s Osama bin Laden.
Thank God America is better than that. Thank God Falwell’s dream of a fundamentalist theoacracy hasn’t prevailed.
Religious fundamentalism has a place in democracy, but not a place of power.
The Constitution of the United States of America is a document of compromise, born of compromise, and thrives on compromise. Falwell — as every religious fundamentalist of any stripe — was loathe to accept compromise; he thought *he* spoke for God; he thought he had the inside track for *the* truth; he manipulated reality to conform with his supposed moral superiority, as when he blamed 9/11 on lesbians and abortion rights advocates.
Falwell did all he could muster to corrupt the United States of America into a fundamentalist evangelistic extention and wholey-owned subsidiary of Thomas Road Baptist Church.
He failed.
Thank God for that.
Personally, I am going to buy a good bottle of wine and pour it over Jerry Falwell’s grave – right after it passes through my kidney’s.
If Falwell and his followers have taken control of our country–look at Worst. President. Ever.
Now the rest of us don’t have a prayer.
*****
Listen to Republican. The guy who claims he isn’t even religious–testify, brother, testify!
I’m more of a John Wayne Christian. Tell it like it is and actually do what I say.
Only in your dreams, Republican, could you be anything like John Wayne.
If you piss away your money to these hustlers you have to justify the expense some how. The fact that these guys are on tv telling people if you give them money you will be in the VIP section in heaven is a hustle plain and simple. Then to further corrupt our society they use those funds to gain political influence. We hear the evangelicals claim that casinos lead to bankruptcy and moral decay, but in the next breath they are telling thier flock to open their wallets and support their cause. What is the difference? I can go to a casino and come out with more than I went in with. There is no chance of that happening when I walk into a building with a cross on it. How many people did this guy scam by saying, “dollars for prayers”? If you believe in Christ then send me 10 bucks. I don’t care if you watch HSN or 700 club, a scam is a scam. You just are pedaling a different pile of sh**.
JM was religious, so the new improved JM under another name isn’t? You know, God doesn’t want you to lie now.
Falwell was tolerant? OMG what crack are you smoking?
I’m sorry that his family is in pain right now. That’s all I can say about him that’s nice.
“Thank God Falwell’s dream of a fundamentalist theoacracy hasn’t prevailed.”
Falwell never proposed same. The charge is a scare tactic, nothing more. No one believes in the 1st Amendment more than Christians.
Do Christians believe that their belief is “the” truth? Yes, just as do believers of every faith. As Christ put it: “I am THE way, THE truth, THE life. No man comes unto the Father except by me.” He said what He said.
Does that mean we hate those who do not believe? Of course not.
Yea, he said what I consider to be some outrageous things. But on balance, his influence has been more good than bad.
“Let’s not spit on the man’s grave.”
No kidding. It is amazing what you people will say about a dead man. The respect meter for you people has hit an all time low.
Hey, gmc, father of good manners. Have you nothing to say to these pigs and their incredible disrespect for Falwell?Hmmmmmm? All I did was call the left “pussies”.
You opinion matters so little Fleet.
Again, lefties
“Know your enemy” is smart in war and politics.
Falwell was different BECAUSE Falwell understood a basic fact of politics:
“In politics, you are not out to save souls —In politics, your goal is to get souls who agree with you out to the polls”
If you would simply read the Fundamentalists who oppose Falwell’s methods, you would understand what made Falwell great:
http://www.cephasministry.com/evangelists_falwell.html
John Wayne . . . heh . . . perfect.
The man who was born Marian Morrison, rejected for the Naval Academy, avoided service in WW2 even though he was only 34 and many of his actor friends were in the war, the man who aided McCarthy by turning in his colleagues, who sent money to the racist George Wallace while marrying (and cheating on) his three Hispanic wives.
You might want to model your life after a real hero instead of a movie actor who played heroes in a world of fantasy . . .
Falwell was a despised character among the left for decades because of his condemnation of homosexuals, pro-choice people and those that “tolerated” liberals.
The only thing that has changed is he has died.
Will I feel any differently when Charles Manson dies?
He died – we all will die – his death does not make him a better or more sympathetic person.
Just as the right attacked Molly Ivins and Paul Wellstone when they died, I will continue to be disgusted by Jerry Falwell, even in death.
He dishonored the dead of 9/11 by his statements – why should I grant him more than that?
He was a highly polarizing figure in American politics. I for one am glad that he is gone. Now if we could get rid of Dobson, Robertson, and all others of their ilk we would be a lot better off. They are the most intolerant “compassionate” people I have ever seen.
Face it Fleet, Falwell hated everyone that was not a white, middle aged, hetro, fetus loving, check writing, Republican. Sorry for your loss. But he is frying for his intolerance, bigotry, narrow minded hate speech. And the 3,000 people that died on 9/11 are roasting marshmellows.
“Sorry for your loss.”
Make no mistake that it’s my loss. I’m not even a believer, but it is telling reading all you guys are saying.
Fleet:
I’ve said before, and will again now. I am responsible only for MY behavior, not the behavior of others. What we call others reflects not at all on them, it reflects only on yourself.
Treat people with respect, fleet. Even those you disagree with. Especially those you disagree with. Those who are your enemies on one issue may well be your allies on another . . . and it’s the right thing to do.
I don’t always live up to it, I’m afraid. At times I, like all of us, will speak (or write) and then regret it on further reflection. But we try.
Once again: What we call others reflects not at all on them, it reflects only on yourself. Think about it.
Let me first express my sympathy to the friends and family of Mr. Falwell. Anyone who has lost a family member knows the pain they are experiencing at this time.
I personally however will shed not one tear over the death of Mr. Falwell. He was, in my opinion, nothing more than an agent of hate and intolerance. I have no doubt that he is now spending eternity in hell lamenting that he did not profess the love of Christ but intstead his own twisted version of what God wants from all of us.
That makes him as good an example as Rush and Newt!
No kidding Fleett, the party of tolerance is now the party of Haters.
I’ve never seen so many haters assembled in one place as here on the WE Blog – the Liberal Democrats.
The seperation of church and state is what makes religion strong in our society. Compare the church attendance in this country with those countries which have a state sponsored religion. We have a more vibrant religious life in this country _because_ of the seperation of church and state, not _in spite of_ the seperation.
Are you shocked? Dismayed? What did you expect after the absurd comments that flowed from this guy everytime something bad happened? We all felt like you do now when he was so crass after 9/11. There are many warnings in the Bible that righties so claim they know so well about judgement, tolerance, and acceptance. He didn’t practice what he preached which makes him a hypocrit.
Well, republican, both you and fleett have shown an awful lot of hate today with all the name-calling etc.
Now let’s see. Why did God take Jerry? Surely we’ll need to find some awful moral dilemma which has brought about this terrible horrible death. Or could it be he died of heart failure and the 911 victims died because of religious whackos….just like Jerry.
“I’ve never seen so many haters assembled in one place…”
I wonder what the editorial board would have to say about their like-minded brethren spewing the “I glad he’s dead”.They have to be shaking their heads saying, “STFU, you are making us look worse that usual.”I wonder what the lurkers think.
So help me, if Bush tries to lower the flag to half staff for this guy… I’m really gonna scream.
He was filth, plain and simple. May he rest in hell with the rest of em.
If you want to see insane, foaming at the mouth, pure and unadulterated, hatred, check out Republican’s 6:27am post on this thread:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/too_much_politi.html#comments
Reminds me of what my den mother used to say, when you point your finger at somebody, there are three pointing back at you.
Or, as Eric Clapton sang, “before you accuse me, you’d better take a look at yourself.”
Or, as written in the CF handbook of notable quotes, “project much?”
In response to Steven Davis..
For a country in which we think we enjoy seperation of church and state. There’s an awful lot of church in the state.
Banning gay marriage, the constant fight over abortions.. If we really did have a true seperation of church and state, these things wouldn’t be an issue.
Fact of the matter is, we are deluding back into what we created this country in the first place to avoid. We came here to be free and different and whoops, we are taking it all away.
“spit on their graves”
Republican = hater
In John 15:18, Jesus said: “If the world hates you, realize that it hated me before it hated you”.
If the reaction here is any clue, he was achieving that measure.
Oh, I see that GMC already made that point.
“God is a Republican” – Jerry Falwell – 1979
“Jesus was the First American.” – Jerry Falwell – circa 1977
“I do question the sincerity of people like the Reverend Martin Luther King…”Jerry Falwell – 1965
“Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a phony.” – Jerry Falwell – August 24, 1985
“The Beast (The Antichrist) when comes he must be, of necessity, a Jewish male”- Jerry Falwell – 2006
“I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we don’t have public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them.” – Jerry Falwell – 1979
“The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.” – Jerry Falwell – July 4, 1976
“If we are going to save America and evangelize the world, we cannot accommodate secular philosophies that are diametrically opposed to Christian truth … We need to pull out all the stops to recruit and train 25 million Americans tobecome informed pro-moral activists whose voices can be heard in the halls of Congress.” – Jerry Falwell – September, 1984
“The Bible is the inerrant … word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history…” – Jerry Falwell -September 1982
“Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.” – Jerry Falwell – May 17, 1997
“I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternativelifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say ‘you helped this happen.’” – Jerry Falwell – September 11, 2001
“The (gay-oriented) Metropolitan Community Churches are brute beasts and a vile and Satanic system that will one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven…” – Jerry Falwell – 1984
Anybody that wants to make a martyr out of Falwell be my guest. You will show how intolerant, and ignorant that you are by doing so. How can anyone defend this guy? Becuase he preached hate and intolerance? Do these things represent you and your family? Do you really believe that 9/11 happened because of homosexuality, or abortions? Why do people care so much about what happens in someone else’s personal life? Is it your business? Who are you to judge? How bout I come to your house and pass judgement on how you raise your kids or talk to your cat? If you live in a glass house you don’t throw stones. And everyone here(including the reich wingers) lives on Shatter Ave. Good night all.
Good posts, Steven and MonkeyHawk–
And let’s look at the kind of hating that Republican likes, shall we:
“The Democratic party has become spineless jellyfish floating in a chaotic sea of morally deficient mouth-breathers.
“The Democratic party now view the American flag and the principles it stands for as one of meaningless fashion.
“No longer will the Democratic party allow pride in Country, Flag or morality. They loathe the American of our grandparents and parents and spit on their graves.
“Witness the death of America, courtesy of the Democratic party.”
*****
Oh, man, I can feel the love, can’t you all.
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya . . .
Blacks and whites, libs and cons, republicans and democrats, all living together in joy and harmony.
It’s a beautiful vision, Republican.
Thanks for sharing . . .
Look – you’re not going to stop judgementalism and intolerance by hating those like Falwell. Your hatred only breeds MORE intolerance.
I have it on good authority that when Brother Jerry entered Heaven this morning, he immediately went exploring. He found a place where he could look straight down into hell, and saw that they were preparing lunch. There were turkeys and hams and sweet potatos and all manner of delicious dishes being fixed. He figured that if that was what was being served in hell, lunch in Heaven must be really something! When the lunch bell rang, he ran and leaped into his chair, and found a plate of leftover tuna casserole. He turned to God and said “What’s this? I saw what they were having in hell!”God smiled, and said “Well, you know how it is when you’re just cooking for two.”
Right, we should just UNDERSTAND intolerant people like Falwall, right, GS?
*****
It just dawned on me why Republican calls him a Christian but doesn’t go to church.
Can’t learn anything when you already know it all . . .
Gsheridan,Good point “you’re not going to stop judgementalism and intolerance by hating those like Falwell. Your hatred only breeds MORE intolerance”
The only way to get past the hatred of people like Falwell, Phelps, and their ilk is to ignore them. They should not have media time, they should not get the spotlight when they spew forth their ignorant vile, they should be summarily dismissed and ignored.
Good one, Jed–
Reminds me of a similar one.
The Pope died and was taking a tour of heaven with St. Peter. Saw golden streets and green valleys and cloudless skies.
Then as they walked through a little mountain meadow, he saw a little clapboard whitewashed country church with beautiful unaccompanied singing billowing out of the opened windows.
“My, isn’t that great singing,” said the Pope. “Let’s go inside and get a better look.”
“Oh, no,” said St. Peter. “Those are the Southern Baptists. You see . . .” and at this point he hesitated . . . “you see, it wouldn’t be heaven for them if they you knew YOU were here.”
Well, I would love to make a comment about some of the mean-spirited things said on here but since I partially started it that probably wouldn’t be a smart thing. I apologize for calling him an idiot. He’s dead and I don’t like to talk ill of the dead, there’s just no point. I don’t really know a lot about him, but being Christian there is probably 1 or 2 things that I could have agreed with him on. The only issue that I specifically remember is the Teletubbies incident that I previously mentioned, and I think that was just stupid. Otherwise, I can’t really add anything to the conversation…
” I need not leave my faith behind me when I step in the voting booth.”
I disagree. Religion has no place in the voting booth, City Hall the courthouse, the public schools. Religion is between you and the God of your choice and belongs in your heart, your home and the church.
Wait till the little phony finds out there isn’t a God, boy will he be pissed.
As a liberal Democrat, I could not stand Falwell or the rest of the idiots that followed him. I think he has done alot of damage to the country and even to Christianity with his fudamentalism and dedication to the conservatve cause at the expense of the real teachings of Jesus. His expressed hate for gays, atheist and Larry Flynt did not show the side of Jesus that I believe in. He was a worshipper of the Republican God of the Old Testament. But, as I pointed out in the past, Falwell did at least put his money where his mouth was. Instead of just opposing abortion, Falwell opened up programs and housing for young pregnant girls and assisted them with their babies or with an adoption to a good family. He also has programs to help people addicted to drugs and Liberty University has programs and scholarships for the poor among us. Unlike other neo con preachers, Falwell did not live excessively, did not own mansions and private jets nor did he have a wife like Tammy Faye (who is also in the final days of her life). Falwell was a man who practiced what he preached and for that I have a grudging respect for the man although his conservative and Republican ideals I would never agree with. And I would never rejoice in the death of anybody- even a Republican.
Capn,
Falwell preached that global warming was a myth.
I’d guess that Republican considers Falwell a hero — he used religion to discredit the almost 200 U.S.A. scientists who say that humans are causing GW, in IPCC’s recent WG1 report.
“Because we don’t think about future generations, they will never forget us.” Henrik Tikkanen
The Republicans often, as did Falwell, support war, death and destruction as long as their kids don’t go. As far as I know neither of Falwell’s sons served a day wearing a uniform and most Republicans will never serve a day. But they will cheer on the kids of working America and wave the flag! They also say they support the Bible but they never read it do they? Most of them don’t because they are too busy drinking, shooting animals, chasing other women around and beating their wives up! Only a Republican could sing songs like “All Jacked Up” and “Redneck Woman” on the same CD as “The Bible and The Flag”.
I think it’s interesting that some people are still spreading the media generated lie that Falwell said anything about the teletubbies. He didn’t. The Journal for Liberty University passed along comments they had discovered on left wing web sites and newspapers and the media bigots went nuts.
How fitting today that the head bigot, the very woman who no doubt channels the Bitch of Belsen should throw this red meat to The Eagle’s usual pack of hatemongers.
Wichita – birthplace of the Fourth Reich, home of The Wichita Eagle, it’s official mouthpiece.
Heil Wichita, Heil The Eagle, Heil Holman.
Angry Ben, how were you able to escape from the home?
“most Republicans will never serve a day.”
I have to take note to this beause 90% of the military members that I know are Republicans and probably 75% of the Republicans that I know were/are in the military.
Wow Kev…
For someone talking about hate, you sure do seem to have a bunch of it.
Gentle Ben, if that is correct then I apologize for my comments but as far as I know, and every source that I can find, supports his belief of a “homosexual teletubby.”
Both my father and I are about as Conservative as you can get.
We have both served in the military. My father retired from the Navy.
I even served in Iraq.
I will continue to serve until I retire too.
“I have to take note to this beause 90% of the military members that I know are Republicans and probably 75% of the Republicans that I know were/are in the military.”
The vast majority of military members are Democrats from my experience. I don’t know if anybody has ever polled them or looked at precint voting in military areas. It would suprise me if they were Republicans because the Democrats have always supported the military people when it comes to medical programs, the GI Bill and pay raises. When I was there, most of those I was with voted for Jimmy Carter as did I.
WeBlog, Where the Wichita Eagle editorial board shares opinions and observations.
Now if Sharpton and Jackson pass, maybe we will have something.
Now if Sharpton and Jackson will just croak, maybe we will have something.
“because the Democrats have always supported the military people when it comes to medical programs, the GI Bill and pay raises.”
Wow, I think I just had an aneurysm from the logical fallacy of that statement. Unfortunately, I can’t stay and argue about it…
For what it’s worth …
Tinky-Winky controversyOne of the Teletubbies, Tinky Winky, was the focus of a still hinted-at controversy in 1999 due to his carrying a bag that looks much like a woman’s handbag (although he was first “outed” by the academic and cultural critic Andy Medhurst in a letter of July 1997 to The Face).
A February 1999 article in the National Liberty Journal, published by evangelical pastor Jerry Falwell, warned parents that Tinky could be a hidden homosexual symbol, saying “he is purple—the gay pride color, and his antenna is shaped like a triangle—the gay pride symbol.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletubbies#Tinky-Winky_controversy
and from BBC …
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/276677.stm
The innocent world of the Teletubbies is under attack from America’s religious right.The Reverend Jerry Falwell, a former spokesman for America’s Moral Majority, has denounced the BBC TV children’s show. He says it does not provide a good role model for children because Tinky Winky is gay.
Cheerful Tinky Winky, the purple character with the triangular aerial on his head, carries a handbag – but apart from that seems much the same as his friends Laa-Laa, Dipsy and Po.
The characters are famous for their use of baby language, including the catchphrases “eh-oh” meaning “hello”, and “uh-oh” for “oh dear”.
But the Teletubbies have made the Rev Falwell, chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia, hot under the collar. He decided to “out” Tinky Winky in the February edition of his National Liberty Journal.
‘Subtle depictions’
In an article called Parents Alert: Tinky Winky Comes Out of the Closet, he says: “He is purple – the gay-pride colour; and his antenna is shaped like a triangle – the gay-pride symbol.”
He said the “subtle depictions” of gay sexuality are intentional and later issued a statement that read: “As a Christian I feel that role modelling the gay lifestyle is damaging to the moral lives of children.”
Interesting that Liberty has deleted the page …
Thanks, Ben–
The neo-cons and uber-cons are dangerous, not because of what they DON’T know, but because of what they THINK they know that ain’t so.
I’m sure that fire-breathing “Gentle Ben” (more like Vicious Ben) will now see the error of his ways and admit he was wrong, very, very wrong.
Nope . . . uber-cons are NEVER wrong, even when they’re wrong.
Just look at Iraq.
“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant; it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.”- Ronald Reagan
Ok, Capn. Looks like borderline plagiarism. Leaning on the Great Communicator. Reversing a Reagan quote to insult conservatives. Shame.
out – I think the proper attribution would be to Mark Twain.
There were dozens upon dozens of articles and columns at the time of the Liberty article falsely attributing the article to Falwell. he had nothing to do with it, and the article itself was written from articles in the online leftist magazine Salon, and other articles from major newspapers here and in England, all of which said pretty much the same thing, Tinky Winky had become a “gay icon” and that the show pretty much sucked.
The KC Star published reports about Falwell making the comments and then published a correction noting that the comments had appeared in the Liberty journal, but not referencing the source of the Liberty Journal’s information.
After printing the correction, it then printed a couple of more columns by the usual national left wing bigots denouncing Falwell for the comments knowing full well that the accusations were false.
Note, this is not an opinion, it’s fact. If I’m wrong, I can be sued for libel. If I’m wrong on this, The Star should sue me. I’m not.
As usual you crackers don’t have a clue other than the misinformation you get from these neo-Nazi hate rags like The Eagle.
Actually, I first heard it attributed to Davy Crockett.
At any rate, it’s been around for a long time (I thought everyone KNEW that), so I guess that OUTLANDER will now have to admit that it’s Reagan who plagiarized.
Like I say, they can’t admit they’re wrong even when they dead-to-rights wrong.
Just look at Iraq.
Okay, Vicious Ben, I want to sue you.
What’s your name and address?
Thank you,
Your future plaintiff.
“neo-Nazi” Godwin’s Law applies. You lose not-so-Gentle.
Falwell also blamed 9/11 on the left – “You helped this happen” referring to gays etc and 9/11.
Thanks to Monkey Hawk for the quotes straight from the formerly alive Pastor Jerry.
But wait, there’re more:
AIDS is not just God’s punishment for homosexuals; it is God’s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.Jerry Falwell
And the evangelicals, 80 millions of us in America, everyone knows we’re the best friends Israel has, the best friends Jewish people around the world, including America, have.Jerry Falwell
And, these Islamic fundamentalists, these radical terrorists, these Middle Eastern monsters are committed to destroying the Jewish nation, driving her into the Mediterranean, conquering the world.Jerry Falwell
Any sex outside of the marriage bond between a man and a woman is violating God’s law.Jerry Falwell
Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America.Jerry Falwell
But I do know the Scientology Church, like the Moslems, has a pretty hard, strong grip on their constituents.Jerry Falwell
But I don’t believe anyone begins a homosexual.Jerry Falwell
Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.Jerry Falwell
God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.Jerry Falwell
God created the family to provide the maximum love and support and morality and example that one can imagine.Jerry Falwell
God himself preserved the Bible, and brought it down through the ages.Jerry Falwell
Homosexuality is Satan’s diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.Jerry Falwell
I am a Christian.Jerry Falwell
In my 20 years in the service, virtually no one ever talked about politics and I suspect most are independents or moderates ….
The Hatch Act did not allow us to advocate politically in uniform, I suspect that notion carried over into our social / personal lives.
Davy Crockett?
You may be right about some of us conservatives have a tough time admitting when their wrong. Being wrong happens so rarely.
You seem to able to easily admit you’re wrong though, Capn. Practice makes perfect.
Ok, that’s the last time (well tonight) I participate in one of Capn’s childish insult fests.
Some of Falwell’s comments (9/11 God’s punishment for tolerating gays) sounds very similar to Phelps ‘thank God for IEDs’
Looks like it was the humorous writer Artemis Ward who first penned the saying.
I’m still waiting for outlander to admit that Reagan plagiarized it. As if Old Jelly Bean Brain could ever come with something that clever on his own . . .
And have you heard the latest, Fred Phelps vows to picket Falwell’s funeral.
One religious nutcase hater for another . . . the irony, the delicious irony . . .
Good Riddance!
Every dead fundamentalist, young earth, creationist, gay hating scumbag is a step in the right direction.
Satan must have finally lost the bet and had to let Jerry move in.
The hatefilled libs on this post crack me up.
Falwell preach hate and intolerance. Gee I wonder what about 70 percent of the posting here have been against Falwell. Any of it hateful or intolerant.
I just don’t get it. I don’t like the crap the left puts out so I don’t go to their websites. I don’t like what the San Fran Nan and Splash Kennedy have to say so I change the channel. That is free will, I have that choice. Just because Falwell was a Republican and so am I and he spouts off his own opinion and interpretation of the bible anyone who listens to him and AGREES with him is just a hatefilled, homophobe, bigoted racist. Nevermind that at least some of their money, that their free will sent in, actually went to helping the poor, or spread the Christian faith doesn’t matter, they are all wrong.
Into your hands, O Lord,we humbly entrust our brothers and sisters.In this life you embraced them withyour tender love;deliver them now from every eviland bid them enter eternal rest.
Many people claim Christianity but many pof them will go to Hell too. I don’t know where Falwell went but I suspect most Republicans that die go to a very hot place. There is no way that Jesus would stand at the gates and allow in men that hate, kill, destroy and burn crosses in His name.
“The hatefilled libs on this post crack me up.”
I do not hate Falwell nor do I rejoice in his death. I do not hate James Dobson, John Hagee or GW Bush. I hate the evil these men stand for.
Wonder if Rev Thomas Robb will now take over the “Christian” Conservative Movement?
I suspect most Republicans that die go to a very hot place. There is no way that Jesus would stand at the gates and allow in men that hate, kill, destroy and burn crosses in His name.
Posted by: Kev | May 15, 2007 at 07:12 PM
I don;t know, but I suspect, that you are full of hatred, some Republican must have burnt you badly. Most Republicans I know don;t do any of those things, and in fact, I think those that routinely burned crosses were southern democrats. In fact, Sr Democrat Senator Byrd was a KKK member.
Let’s not play self-righteous, LJ. The “Southern Democrats” have converted to the Republican Party. Richard Shelby of Alabama is a prime example of a “Dem” rolling over to the GOP. Strom Thurmond (R – SC) and Jesse Helms (R – NC) are two other examples.
It was Richard Nixon that first employed the “Southern Strategy” and turned former Democrats into Republicans.
Watsa matter Capn, every word I wrote is true about Democrats.
A bunch of flag burning, conspiracy driven, hate mongers and generally bottom oozing mouth breathers who practice their faith in Poll numbers of the day.
“who practice their faith in Poll numbers of the day.”
Yep, Republican, we practiced our faith in “Poll Numbers” last November and we will be doing the same in November 2008.
When we are done with you GOP’ers, you’ll be looking back on the good old days, before you heard of George W Bush.
And we will be laughing our tails off at you.
“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” – Mark Twain (page 20 of Al Gore’s ‘An Inconvenient Truth’)
This is a very scary thread. Many of you who are dancing on Rev. Falwell’s grave and who think you know he is in hell need to hear this. This is what Christianity is all about.
Jerry Falwell is in a better place now. How can I know that?Well, he is not in heaven because of his actions on this earth. He is there because of his professed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
God tells us in His Word that no matter how much good we do, how much we give etc…we can never measure up to God’s standard. We are all sinners and worthy of eternal separation from Him.
That is why he sent his Son to die for the sins of the world. Yes, everyone’s sins, no matter how heinous they might be. And all you have to do is believe. What an incredible deal! God promises that whosoever calls on Him and believes that Jesus is the Son of God, will have eternal life with Him. So there is always hope. No one’s life is too bad for redemption.
And bless all of you who have cursed Rev. Falwell.
Amen outlander.
“Well, he is not in heaven because of his actions on this earth.”
Didn’t Jesus say “Love thy neighbor as yourself?”
Isn’t the Eighth Commandment “Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor?”
How does that jive with Falwell’s public and official stance regarding homosexuals, the Clintons and liberals in general?
So, because Falwell believes in Jesus, he gets a pass into Heaven despite his hateful approach to his neighbor?
If that is Heaven, then I choose Hell.
WS-
You are right, they changed to Republicans. I should have left of the dem/Reopublican thing. However, my point still stands.
This:
I suspect most Republicans that die go to a very hot place. There is no way that Jesus would stand at the gates and allow in men that hate, kill, destroy and burn crosses in His name.
Posted by: Kev | May 15, 2007 at 07:12 PM
Was nothing more than a hate filled rant.
I know few republicans or democrats that fit this bill, but, the KKK is full of southern Democrats, and I am sure some republicans. He brought up the cross burning. I replied
Some of the best religious conversations I have had have been with Fundamentalists and with Evangelicals, those two groups are NOT always in agreement with each other, but I admire most of their leaders.
Catholics and most mainstream, Protestant churches (Anglican, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian) will probably face at least a little scolding for their failure, in the last several decades, to promote the faith — when Judgement comes.
I admire those who truly believe that love for their neighbor requires conversion of their neighbor, through peaceful evangelism.
Having said that, Fundamentalism fails, logically, on at least one primary point:
Fundamentalists believe that ALL faith must come, directly, from the Bible.
However, nowhere in the Bible can we find much support for that Fundamental belief.
This is, perhaps, because the Bible itself was first edited and published by the Catholic Church (Later modified, of course, by Luther.) The “Books” of the Bible were seperate until bound together by the “Universal” Church, the Catholic Church. It would have been odd for any particular “Book” of the Bible to acknowledge any other Book of the New Testament Bible. It is entirely possible that some of the authors where not, entirely, aware of the works of some of the other authors, given geographic, printing other problems. (Not the least of which were war, cultural differences and persecution of early Christians.)
The Bible was intended as a guide to help us live our lives, not as a scientific journal or as a perfect rendition of history.
“Remember, Peter, that you are Rock and upon this Rock I build my Church, whatever you bind on Earth will be bound in Heaven, whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven”
This is the Catholic foundation for the Papacy as well as other teachings of the Catholic Church. This pasage CAN be found in the Bible!
YES there is great debate about these matters, however, in defense of Catholism, the Orthodox Christian Church is the only Christian Faith which can claim to be anywhere near as old as the Roman Catholic Church. The Beliefs of the Orthodox are VERY similar to those of Catholics, but for the primacy of Rome. If Catholics are so off the mark, how is it that the Orthodox have remained so similar?
To those of you who think Falwell was taking us towards a theocracy, that is NUTS. Falwell’s views were pretty close to the views of our founders.The atheists and liberals on this Blog would not have fit in with any of the founders of this country.
You scream “seperation of church and state” but you ignore history. It was the religious wars and strife that prompted our founders to ensure religious liberty. However, nearly every candidate for President, in our entire history, has made political speeches in Church. It was NEVER intended that religion not be used as a guide or tool in molding national policy.
John Adams wrote, “Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other.” George Washington wrote, “Of all the dispositions which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”
What made Falwell unique was that he was so TOLERANT of theological differences.
Falwell made it clear what he beleived, but he also looked for common ground between the faiths.
Catholics and Baptists have been arguing for centuries. Falwell found common ground.
Jews and Christians, sadly, have been arguing for centuries. Again, Falwell found common ground.
If you count the faiths that came together under Falwell for dialog, you will see that Falwell was a peace maker.
Liberals are intolerant of Falwell due to Falwells success at promoting religious tolerance.
It is not “hate” to warn your fellow man about sin.
I am a sinner too, I just don’t expect my spiritual advisors to endorse my sin. I am not so selfish and ego-centric as to assume that religious leaders hate me just because I am not perfect.
True Christians seek forgiveness, not endorsement of sin.
Again, I find lots of fault with Fundamentalism, but Falwell was a very good man.
Liberals tolerate everyone that agrees with them, it seems.
If I am right about that point, then Falwell WAS more tolerant than any of you libs, if you count the number of people that he “tolerated.”
“Liberals are intolerant of Falwell due to Falwells success at promoting religious tolerance.”
Nonsense. Liberals are intolerant of Falwell because he was intolerant of homosexuals, pro-choice individuals, liberals and his hateful approach to those that disagreed with him.
I could care less about his (supposed) success in promoting religious tolerance.
WSYou, sir, are far more intolerant than Falwell.You prove my point.
WS Clark,
There is nothing about being tolerant as a Christian.
It is not in the Bible. Jesus never said to be tolerant.
Homosexuality is clearly spoken of in the Bible as being a sin.
Jerry Falwell, held to what the Bible said.
Preaching that homosexuality is a sin is not a violation of loving thy neighbor as yourself.
It is not hate. It is truth.
“You, sir, are far more intolerant than Falwell.”
Show me where I have been less tolerant than Falwell, Paul.
“It is not hate. It is truth.”
It is fine that Falwell considers homosexuality to be a sin. It is fine that he preaches that to his congregation.
It is intolerant when he attempts to influence the law of the United States to discriminate against homosexuals, while receiving a tax exempt status.
He can’t (couldn’t) have it both ways.
While you are at it, Nathan, explain how Falwell’s Clinton Body Count video was a Christian thing to do.
Who cares if it is inolerant to try to influence law to not give special treatment to people who choose to be homosexual!
I have every right, just as Falwell did, to influence the law to not give special treatment based on someone being homosexual.
Point one – why is allowing gays to marry a “special treatment?” What is special about allowing someone to marry the partner of their choice?
Point two – it is only fundamentalists and intolerant people that claim that homosexuality is a choice.
Point three – I said Falwell can do what ever he want(ed) but he should not get tax exempt status if he is going to involve himself directly in politics.
Remember, Falwell said that God is a Republican.
Is it okay for incestuous marriages to take place?
Like a brother marrying his sister?
Homosexuality and incestuous behavior are two different things. To compare the two is disingenuous, as is comparing bestiality, pedophilia and other sexual practices.
Homosexuals are just like everyone else – they do not choose to be homosexual, but they are and they should have the same rights as heterosexuals.
Remember, Falwell said that God is a Republican.
Posted by: WSClark | May 15, 2007 at 09:09 PM
Falwell would be wrong. But then again,God would not be a Democrat either. I think he is a bit obove all that.
The difference is, LJ, Democrats do not claim that God is a member of the party.
Falwell made the statement – at that point, his church should have lost their tax exempt status.
WS – incestuous relationships are not taboo for any reason other than your ‘ick’ factor.
Does that sound familiar?
You can’t compare them to bestiality where there is only one human.
In incestuous relationships, there are TWO consenting adults.
Does that sound familiar?
It seems to me that you are judging others when you ought not be.
Most everyone else’s sexual behavior gets me to the “ick” factor, whether they are gay, straight or bi. I do not want to see it or hear any details about it.
I have to say that I am the only man in history to fall asleep during 9 1/2 Weeks – twice.
Porn? Forget it – I am likely to puke more than anything else.
I am no prude and I have a rather long list of former girlfriends.
As for homosexuals? They present no threat to heterosexuals – leave them be.
An allow them the same rights as the rest of us.
WS Clark,
There is nothing about the tax exempt status that I know of which would prohibit Falwell from saying God is a Republican.
I am curious as to what the context of his statement was though.
The churches receive their tax exempt status provided that they are non-political. The moment that they endorse a party or candidate, they lose that status.
Falwell’s intent with his statement that “God is a Republican” was a clear endorsement of a political party.
What else needs to be said?
….. and what about his Clinton Body Count video?
Was that non-political?
WS Clark,
I don’t think the law says you have to be non political.
Otherwise, every non-profit organization would be up the creek without a pattle.
If there had been a case, I have no doubt that the ACLU would have already been all over it like a hungry dog on steak.
“I don’t think the law says you have to be non political.”
The law is very specific – no endorsement of party or candidate or no tax exempt status.
Easy enough.
How about the Falwell Clinton Body Count video – do you stand by that as being non-political?
501(c)(3) organizations, which is what a church is, are not allowed to intervene in any campaign for elected office, either for or against any specific candidate. 501(c)(3) organizations are also prohibited from engaging in partisan political activities of any kind. Furthermore, 501(c)(3) organizations may only engage in direct issue advocacy so long as that advocacy does not constitute a “significant part” of that organization’s activities. That “significant part” is generally viewed by the IRS as less than 20% of the annual budget of the organization.
WS Clark,
I have never seen the video.
I just scrolled back through this thread. Oh my…could it be more toxic?
I think I’ll shut off the laptop and watch the news.
Perhaps not – neither have I – but in it Falwell claims that President Clinton was responsible for ordering the murders of some 40 individuals.
That does not seem to me to meet the “non-political” intent of the tax exempt status provisions.
“So, because Falwell believes in Jesus, he gets a pass into Heaven despite his hateful approach to his neighbor?
If that is Heaven, then I choose Hell.”
Have you ever even picked up a Bible??? Yes, if someone believes in Jesus, they will go to heaven no matter what their actions are. That is the wonderful grace of Jesus! We are all humans and we are all flawed, but when we accept his gace, our sins forgiven and we are accepted into his arms. We are also supposed to be Christ-like and try to better ourselves but no matter what, we are forgiven! I have no respect for Christians who do the wrong thing over and over just because they know they can but that is between themselves and God. My favorite saying is, “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven.” Now I’m sure you’ll try to convince how much of an idiot I am but I really don’t care:)
“I think I’ll shut off the laptop and watch the news.”
Don’t watch the debate coverage, Tom, it could be even more painful.
Most of what Falwell contributed to is the fear and paranoia that permeates our oountry now. He preached the ideology of being suspicious and threatened by anyone who doesn’t share his idea of what being a Christian is, thus proving himself anything but a true Christian.Republican, My “Oh please ” comment wasn’t about the idea of someone spitting on his grave, but about your comment “the wisdom of the Lord fills him up with the glory of God.” That declaration absolutely makes me want to throw up.
“Have you ever even picked up a Bible???”
I have read it cover to cover – twice.
How about you?
The difference is, LJ, Democrats do not claim that God is a member of the party.
Falwell made the statement – at that point, his church should have lost their tax exempt status.
Posted by: WSClark | May 15, 2007 at 09:20 PM
No argument here
I always love the people who say they have read the Bible from cover to cover…
as they completely misconstrue what it says…
WSYou are wrong in your interpretation of tax law.
Charities, including churches, can’t endorse candidates.
Charities, including churches, can’t financially support candidates.
Other than that, the First Amendment gives churches, and other charities, the RIGHT to say pretty much anything they want to say.
That is Constitutional Law.
Nazi newspaper. Nazi blog. Corrupt city.
AFN, that is pure bull hockey..that’s what I can’t stand about Christian fundamentalism..the arrogance of beliving that you will be in paradise no matter how you choose to conduct your life.Mother Theresa said it best “If you think you’re going to heaven, then you’re not humble enough to go there”.
“Charities, including churches, can’t endorse candidates.”
Or political parties.
How did Falwell live up to that standard with his “God is a Republican” statement?
“In incestuous relationships, there are TWO consenting adults.”
Even GS would not say anything that incredibly STUPID. Someone must of been trolling her.
Otherwise that post was a new low for her that she will never plunge below.
Shaking my head…
No, WSClark, I have not read the Bible cover to cover. I’ve never had the time although it is something that I’ve always wanted to do. And I don’t claim to be an expert on biblical text, but there is one thing I know and that is how I have been saved by the grace of Jesus. I’m not standing up for Falwell, as I mentioned earlier today, I don’t know much about him but I haven’t been impressed by the little bit that I do know BUT for people to say that all Christians are horrible just because of a few bad examples or to say that they’d prefer hell or heaven because he’s in heaven, that’s just absurd. I really feel sorry for anyone who feels that way.
WSFalwell did not give up his 1st Amendment rights when he became a minister.
You are an intolerant man if your aim is to silence those with whom you do not agree.
So tell us Mary,
How does someone go to heaven?
I am assuming that I did not understand the context in which Ms. Sheridan made her statement. I hope that is true, at least.
Why don’t you enlighten us, Nathan? You think you’re an expert on Christianity and the hereafter.I would never be so arrogant to think I have all the answers to life and death.
No Mary that is NOT bull hockey, I believe that I will get to heaven not on my own actons but because of Jesus and it humbles me to think that someone gave their life so tht I could live for eternity.
“I always love the people who say they have read the Bible from cover to cover…”
Twice, Nathan. My adopted parents were very devout Lutherans. I went to church twice a week, every week until I was eighteen. I was a practicing Christian until about 15-20 years ago.
Yes, I have read the Bible cover to cover – before I disavowed Christianity.
Wanna play dueling scriptures?
We had the privilege of having Dr. Falwell speak at our churches 50th Anniversary in October 2005. I didn’t know Dr. Falwell well, but he graciously offered to speak at the Downtown Hyatt. He didn’t ask for any offering or expenses. When with our church (we are not large or affluent)he was so kind to our people. I was always impressed with how he was unpretentious. I also will fondly remember watching Dr. Falwell and Larry Flynt on Larry King. On the show Larry Flynt stated clearly that Dr. Falwell was his good friend. They disagreed on most issues, but he was personally his friend. I don’t think there could be a higher compliment. He will be missed, and those who are seemingly angry at Dr. Falwell, need to follow his example and disagree without being mean personally.
Pastor Mike
Mary,
I am interested in what you think. You have criticized AFN for what he says, so then what does it take to get to heaven?
I am not an “expert” but I do study the Bible regularly and seem to have a better understanding of it than most.
There are several things which the Bible speaks of in order to acheive salvation.
Some are debated on by different denominations, like being Baptized, but the one ultimate thing is acceptance and belief of Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
I believe that you must believe in Christ and repent of your sins to go to heaven.
When many people say that all you have to do is believe, like AFN, they typically assume that belief in Christ means that you are repentant for your sins and that you do try to follow him.
Truely believing in Christ, in my opinion, is actually following his commandments and being repentant for your sins.
Which Synoid of Lutheran were you?
Keep dreaming AFN…are we really so important that we live for eternity? Religious belief is just a way to deny our mortality. Mankind can’t accept the fact that we don’t exist after we die, and religion is nothing but a form of social control.Many people only live right because of their fear of punishmnent after they die…so religion is necessary to have a civilized society. Humans need external controls because they often lack the internal ones.
“Falwell did not give up his 1st Amendment rights when he became a minister.”
I never said that Jerry Falwell gave up his First Amendment rights, Paul, I said that he gave up his right to tax exempt status. Tax exempt status is not a Constitutional right.
Do you need some help with reading comprehension?
Jeez.
“Which Synoid of Lutheran were you?”
American Lutheran Church. My Aunts and Uncles were Missouri Synod.
What’s your point?
Nathan, I believe that the Bible was written by man, not God. It has no impact in my life except for some of the wisdom it contains.I don’t believe that Jesus is God.
Not that it matters, but just for the record, I’m a she:) And yes you would be correct in assuming that my belief includes being repentant for your sins and trying to follow Him. I guess in my mind those are automatic, IF you truly believe and accept Him. That’s why, like I said earlier, I have no respect for Christians who continue to do things knowingly against God over and over just because they know they can. I don’t pretend to be even close to perfect, it’s something that I can’t obtain, but at least I try to do everything in my power and pray for His power to get as close to that achievement as humanly possible.
Well Mary, you are allowed to have your opinion and I will certainly have mine. And yes, I will keep dreaming, dreaming of the day that I will be at Jesus’ feet and praising Him.
Mary,
I believe the Bible was written by man too, inspired and guided by God.
I find it slightly Ironic that you will sit here and belittle AFN for saying what he believes about salvation and heaven when you don’t even believe in it.
Why would you even care what anyone thought about if someone is going to heaven or not when you don’t even believe in it?
Makes no sense…
Just don’t let it get in the way of enjoying your life on earth.Time is eternal and this may be your only time in eternity. Too many people I know don’t live their life to the fullest because they are just waiting for the next.Not believing in heaven makes this life very special for me..I see my existance as such a wonderful gift and I love life. Just being alive is like winning the lottery.
WS Clark,
Just curious. I grew up in a Missouri Synoid Lutheran Church.
You struck me as a member of the Assembly of God, Nathan, not a Lutheran.
I grew up in a Lutheran Church.
I have attended many Non Denominational churches.
I spent some time with the Orhodox Presbytarian church.
However, I do belong to the Assembly of God church now :)
Nathan, I don’t care. What people believe or don’t believe doesn’t matter in my life and I respect others right to see life and death how they choose as long as they’re not hurting anyone else…I just have no tolerance for arrogance or hypocrisy.I’m not surprised that it makes no sense to you, your thinking is quite concrete and you tend to see things in black and white.As for me, the more I see, the less I know for sure..that comes with age and life experience.
Can I call them or not?
There are members of my birth family that are members of the Assembly of God. I have attended services with them.
I am currently a member of Unity Temple on the Plaza.
Mary, I’m glad you have such a positive outlook on life. I’ll admit that there are times that I wish I could be “somewhere else” but those are personal issues and I do strive to live this life to the fullest – no point in wasting it! Anyways… I must be off to bed, it is way past my bedtime:)
Obviously you do care a bit more than you claim Mary.
Otherwise you wouldn’t be getting riled up because of what AFN thinks about salvation.
Me too, off to bed.
Good night all.
I’m not “riled up”, Nathan…just discussing what I believe in.I’ve got to get up early and go to work..so goodnight all…don’t forget to say your prayers, Nathan.
WS
Jerry Falwell pays taxes just like everyone else. I use the present tense on purpose. Falwell will STILL owe taxes for the 2007 tax year.
Falwell did not spend tax exempt money on politics.
Falwell owns his own mouth. Falwell did not sell his mouth to the Church.
You need some help here. You dont understand tax law, the Constitution, or plain English!
Another day; Another dead body
To bring this thread back to its topic, namely, “Falwell Changed Politics.” –
More than anyone before him, Falwell introduced the concept of Biblical infallibility into politics.
Remember that old “Moral” Majority bumper sticker? Something like, “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.”
As soon as one claims to speak for God, all chance of compromise, of finding common truths among differing philosophies, of getting along together despite our disagreements on specifics… simply disappears.
“I speak for God” so anything you say I disagree with is “against God.”
Falwell’s career was dedicated to corrupting the Constitution of the United States of America. In previous posts I’ve compared the Constitution to the Rules of Baseball. There’s nothing that says a Christian or a Muslim can’t play baseball; is simply is not supposed to matter!
Falwell wanted to make it 2-strikes-you’re-out for batters who didn’t believe in his version of God. At least that was his approach to the Constitution.
“You need some help here. You dont understand tax law, the Constitution, or plain English!”
Sorry, Paul, he used his tax exempt status operation to produce a video accusing the President of the United States of ordering forty plus murders.
That is just one point.
He can (could) shoot off his mouth all he wanted – his Church should not have been tax exempt.
Easy, right?
Long Time
That is crap, pal. You are wrong.Falwell, politically speaking, promoted views that were absolutely in keeping with everyone who signed the Declaration or attended the Constitutional Convention.Nothing Falwell did or said, in anyway, violated the ideals of our founders.
Why didnt those people write Gay Marriage and Abortion Rights into the Constitution, if you are so sure our founders agreed with you?
Look, America has the ability to change our laws anytime we want to.
Falwell took away NOBODYS rights! Falwell supported a world view in line with our founders.
Disagree all you want, that is your right. But don’t paint Falwell as boogey many just because you liberals dont like to hear that you are out of step.
The Founding Fathers were also pretty cool with slavery – are still in favor of that, Paul?
WSThe IRS does not agree with you.Not even under the Clinton “FBI files in the White House” Administration.You are wrong.Give up on this one.
The Founding Fathers were also not real interested in equal rights for women – rights like voting and all that stuff. Are you cool with that, Paul?
I could care less if the IRS agrees with me, Paul. The IRS was also used by the Nixon Administration as a means of punishing and harassing political opponents. They did so willingly. The IRS is not known for being overtly reasonable.
So, what’s your point?
The Founding Fathers did not consider the Native Americans as being human, nonetheless citizen. They were not allowed to own property, even though this was their country. Are you cool with that, Paul?
The Founding Fathers were also not real interested in equal rights anyone other than white male property owners – rights like voting and all that stuff. Are you cool with that, Paul?
WSYou are avoiding the point.You libs claim that Falwell was “suberting” or undermining the Constitution.Then you trash the men who wrote the Constitution?That is priceless.
The fact is, when our nation was founded, slavery was a common practice.
We fought a war to end slavery. Yes, liberals, our nation has been “divided” in the past.
Still, you cant have it both ways. If our Constitution is horrible because it allowed slavery, how can you get mad at Falwell for “violating” the Constition? (Falwell did not violate anything, of course, not even IRS tax law.)
“You libs claim that Falwell was “suberting” or undermining the Constitution. ”
When did I make that statement, Paul? Didn’t happen, did it? As usual, you are making up stuff.
If I made such a statement, copy and paste it.
Go ahead.
How is slavery different than homosexuality, when it comes to right of an individual?
The Founding Fathers did not specifically allow gay marriage, just as they did not specifically outlaw slavery.
Oh, and how did I trash the men who wrote the Constitution, Paul?
WSMany of our founders wanted to end slavery.That was not possible at the time.Politics is the art of the possible.The American Indians you speak of? Yes, they were treated badly. However, Indians enslaved other Indians. Cannibalism was even practiced by some Native tribes.
America led the way in the abolition of slavery, when the time was right for that movement.
Again, you can’t have it both ways.
You claim the Constitution forbids Falwell from doing what he did, then you say that the founders were evil?
“You claim the Constitution forbids Falwell from doing what he did, then you say that the founders were evil?”
Again, you are making up stuff, Rossell. I never said that the Founding Fathers were evil. I never said that the Constitution forbid Falwell from doing what he did.
Do some copying and pasting, Paul, or admit that you are just making stuff up.
As for this statement:
“America led the way in the abolition of slavery, when the time was right for that movement.”
Wrong, England had banned the practice of slavery many years before. Furthermore, Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the south, not those in border states.
But thanks for playing the game, Paul.
WSYou did.You did trash the founders, why else would you bring up the slavery red-herring if not to downgrade the Founders?
Come on liberals, you say that Falwell violated the “seperation of chuch and state.”
Guess what, that phrase is not in the Constitution.
“Seperation of Church and State” was a phrase used by SLAVEHOLDER Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists!
Paul F. ROSELL,
“Falwell supported a world view in line with our founders.”
Paul F. ROSELL is correct.
Jerry Falwell: “Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.”
But fortunately, the U.S. has changed during the last two centuries. There was the Civil War, etc, etc….
“You did trash the founders”
So you were okay with the Founding Fathers owning slaves and not allowing them equal rights, correct Paul? You are also okay with denying rights to non-property owners and women, Native Americans and non-whites?
All of that is okay, because if you disagree you you are TRASHING THE FOUNDING FATHERS?
Man, you Republicans will go to any lengths to justify discrimination against gays.
WSSlavery was abolished by the Civil War.Yes, Lincoln first freed the Slaves held by rebel states.Politics and pragmatism.So what?Get what you can get and move forward.It doesnt make Lincoln wrong that he tried to win the war first, before all the slaves were free.
“Econ101″ wrote –
“That is crap. You are wrong.”
Well… can’t argue with a thoughtful analysis like that!
The Constitution of the United States of America was both implicitly and explicity determined to exclude religion as a factor of governance.
Whatever you interpret “the ideals of the founding fathers,” they made it as clear as possible that in America, what someone thinks is “God’s” will, or “Allah’s” or “Yaweh’s” or “Bonzo the Sun God” cannot be used as justification or rationalization of civil law. Whomever you believe in is fine, but it cannot be maniupulated into a deciding factor of law.
It’s still 90 feet between the bases, even if you’re an atheist.
Sorry to introduce facts, logic, and rational reasoning into this argument. Perhaps I should lower myself to your level.
Like this: “You are crap, pal. You are wrong.”
Jerry Falwell: “Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.”
WSYou are, once again, going completely goofy on us.
The founders did not live in a perfect world. They did what they could do.
America is and has been an example of how to resolve differences. We have been a model of self-government to the world.
That we have made mistakes is obvious and beside the point. American government gives us the means to correct our own errors, in time.
You are trashing America then claiming that you arent trashing America.
You dont seem very proud of our history, I don’t think anyone would be willing to trust you, or like minded liberals, with our future.
So, you are suggesting, Paul, that to grant gays equal rights we need to have a Civil War?
That seems a little extreme to me, but where do I sign up on the side of gay rights?
“You are trashing America then claiming that you arent trashing America.”
How am I trashing America, Paul? By pointing out that the Founding Fathers were not perfect? That they did not grant equal rights to all Americans?
That means I am trashing America?
Like I said, you Republicans will go to some extreme lengths to deny equal rights to gay folks.
Long time
No, you are still and always will be wrong.The law can not require a “religious test” but, as individuals, we can all decide NOT to vote for an atheist.My guess is that America will not ever have a true, admitted Atheist as President.
The law does not prohibit religious people from being involved in politics.
Reverend Sharpton and Reverend Jackson will even support me on that one.
Again:”John Adams wrote, “Our Constitution was designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other.” George Washington wrote, “Of all the dispositions which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.”
Paul F. Rossell, the man that say truth is what HE says it is.
Good night, Paul don’t stay up all night TRYING to come up with a response that makes you look remotely reasonable.
“Econ101″ –
Adams and Washington may have been motivated by a generic religous belief, but they steadfastly created a government in which *imposing* religion on government was forbidden.
Falwell wanted to impose *his* religious beliefs on government.
You’re convinced I am “…wrong and will always be wrong.” It must logically follow you think you are right and will always be right. Like Falwell, you apparently think you speak for God.
Wonder what God thinks about that?
WSYou are, once again, going completely goofy on us.
The founders did not live in a perfect world. They did what they could do.
America is and has been an example of how to resolve differences. We have been a model of self-government to the world.
That we have made mistakes is obvious and beside the point. American government gives us the means to correct our own errors, in time.
You are trashing America then claiming that you arent trashing America.
You dont seem very proud of our history, I don’t think anyone would be willing to trust you, or like minded liberals, with our future.
WSYou did.You did trash the founders, why else would you bring up the slavery red-herring if not to downgrade the Founders?
Come on liberals, you say that Falwell violated the “seperation of chuch and state.”
Guess what, that phrase is not in the Constitution.
“Seperation of Church and State” was a phrase used by SLAVEHOLDER Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists!
Missing from this thread is any discussion of the real impact Falwell had on real American families.
Falwell’s decades-long crusade against gay and lesbian Americans divided and destroyed families. Parents who took Falwell’s words to heart disowned their children. Congregations shunned their gay and lesbian worshipers. People used his words to justify hatred, intolerance, and violence against their neighbors, their coworkers, and their family members.
Falwell’s unrelenting attacks have caused untold grief and pain for countless Americans. The mainstream media kept giving this man a public forum to spew his filth and to use the lives of others to advance his own agenda.
It doesn’t matter if you believe in a literal Heaven or Hell, or if you believe Jerry Falwell has gone to one or the other. What matters is the undeniable hell he created for others here in this life. That will always be a part of his “legacy.”
Amen, Tom.
Amen too Tom. I would add the shunning of girls who “got in trouble” and the impact that has on their babies – and INCREASING abortion.
That’s what it’s all about Tom. That’s the whole thing in a nutshell. The grief and pain you cause others as a result of your beliefs, religious or not. This is why we loathe this man so much.
Our God is a forgiving God. Sure Falwell had make mistakes, just like you have. Let’s hope God is as forgiving of your sins as he is for Falwell’s. For those that aren’t believers, it doesn’t really matter what you think does it?
Econ it’s in there, just not worded in the same way. That’s why Jefferson’s words mean so much to define exactly what he meant.
God and religion are absent in the constitution..that fact alone should be the most telling.
Then in the VERY SENTENCE OF THE VERY FIRST AMENDMENT…it says :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Falwell inflicted real pain on large groups of people based on nothing more than his arrogant assumption that an entire country should be governed by the rules found in his favorite book of fairy tales and myths.
That’s true JayW. As much as we like to think of ourselves as united, Falwell was a leader of a cause that secularists vehemently oppose. Thus their dishonest character assassination attempts.
By the same token, I suppose you wouldn’t expect Christians to honor a secularist leader like Larry Flynt when he dies. Interestingly though, Falwell and Flynt had debates of issues and actually became friends in the course of those debates. A lesson possibly for some not take things so personally?
Outlander,
I’ve personally witnessed the destruction Falwell has contributed to. There is a direct path from Falwell’s attacks to the outcomes I spoke of in my 7:13 post.
It’s hard not to take it personally when it truly is personal for so many.
pmom
and those “petitions” can be written and signed in CHURCH — Church has been the focal point of political debate in this country since the very beginning.
Also, most of the original 13 colonies had religious references in their own, state, Constitutions. Part of the neutratlity you speak of in the US Constitution is due to the fact that the individual States wished to keep those religious preferences to themselves.
Nobody, at the time of ratification, believed that the US Constitution invalidated any of the State Constitutions.
Don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out, Jerry…good riddance!!
“Keep dreaming AFN…are we really so important that we live for eternity? ”
You don’t live but your soul lives for eternity. And yes, you will pay for all the evil you have done and you will be rewarded for all the good you have done.
Jerry Falwell was an open racist. He thought Brown v. Board of Education was an ungodly decision. He opposed the civil rights movement. He supported apartheid in South Africa encouraging all his good Christian followers to invest in South Africa to keep the Black man down. He said AIDS was God’s cure for homosexuality. He said God doesn’t hear the prayers of the Jews. The guy was an all out a-hole, he was worse the Fred Phelps (primarily because Fred fought for civil rights for Blacks).
So I wonder about the character of those who honor the life of slime like Falwell.
If you read the Bible, you will see that homosexuality is only mentioned in the Old Testament- “The Law” which Jesus changed when he came to Earth. Jesus never mentioned homosexulity one way or another. We live under grace now and the Law- otherwise we’d be doing blood sacrifices and throwing stones at Bill Clinton and Rudy Guiliani’s heads for adultrey.
1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
TomDo you support the “gay” activists who spit communion hosts on the floor at St. Patricks Cathedral?Do you support the “Gay” activists who belong to NAMBLA, an organization that wants to legalize child porn and abolish statutory rape laws?What do you think of the homosexuals who rebeled against the medical community, resisited the closing of “bath houses” and deliberately infected other gays with AIDS?It happened.What do you think about all of that?
I tend to treat homosexuals as individuals. Many do not like the radical fringe who claim to speak for them. Many do not want to change current law.Among those who are trying to change the laws concerning “domestic partnerships”and the like, I can only imagine how much they would like to silence NAMBLA and stop the desecration of Churches.
I can see people as individuals. We all fall short. Nobody is perfect.
How about you?
You lefties barely know Falwell.
Falwell has done more to help unwed mothers, out of his own pocket and through his organization, than any of you.
Falwell did not hate anyone.
By the way, Falwell specifically singled out the gay rights activists when he spoke, those who are trying to change the laws in this country. He saw people as individuals, too.
The bigotry in this Blog, especially on this thread, is on the left.
Falwell was miles apart from Phelps. If Phelps has ever befriended a gay person or an unwed mother, I am unaware of such charity.
Yet— you libs lump all the people you dont like into the same camp.
What is bigotry, if not the knee-jerk stereo-typing of people you do not understand?
Kev,
Living under grace doesn’t make sin ok or no longer sin.
It only means that you can be forgiven for it.
To be forgiven of sin, you must be repentant.
To be repentant you must acknowledge that what you did was wrong, ask for forgiveness and try to change.
That is, “IF” you read the Bible…
“Falwell did not hate anyone.”
Except Jews, gays, liberals, Blacks, single mothers, non-born again Christians, pro-choicers, feminists, civil libertarians, secularists, and Billy Graham. But you’re probably like Falwell and don’t think these people are human beings.
Doug,
What proof do you have that he hated them?
Because the standard of hate for most liberals is simple disagreement.
Everytime I say I don’t support homosexual marriage I am accused of hating gays…
So I take your accusation of hate with a grain of salt.
Nathan, apparently you aren’t terribly familiar with Jerry’s quotes over the years. Jerry blamed gays for 9/11 and said God brought AIDS to cure the land of homosexuality. To praise God for bringing a disease to wipe millions of people out how else can you take that?
Doug,
I have not paid hardly any attention to the man at all in my lifetime.
DougFalwell met frequently with Jewish leaders.How many Jewish leaders have you met with, in your lifetime?
Falwell did NOT hate Billy Graham, in any way shape or form.
The Baptist Church, throughout history, has been know for some outrageous claims against the Pope and the Catholic Church.
Falwell met frequently with Catholic leaders.
Jews, Catholics and many other denominations worked with Falwell, both on political and charitable projects.
Doug, you are full of hate.
Do not assume that those you hate feel the same way about you.
Nathan,
“I have not paid hardly any attention to the man at all in my lifetime.”
Maybe now is a good time for you to start?
http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell“Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America.”"The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.”"If you’re not a born-again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.”
(and so on…)
Doug, you should be ashamed of yourself. Obviously, Jerry Falwell was a wonderful man that loved everyone. He would never disparage gays, Jews, Democrats, pro-choice advocates or Catholics.
All those quotes attributed to Falwell had to be simply made up. This is just another leftist plot to discredit a good man of God like Falwell, just as they attacked Baker and Swaggart.
These people that attack these Men of God will pay for their sins in the end.
You know it is true – so you should hang your head in shame – just like Paul Rossell says you should do.
After all, the Truth is what Paul Rossell says it is.
And if you believe any of the above………
NathanI am with you most of the time here, but you said something about tolerance that, perhaps, needs clarification.
If we are to “go forth and make disciples of all nations” — dont we have an obligation not to repulse those we wish to convert?
I actually confronted Phelps with that question, once, on the radio.
He had a hard time answering me.
My point is that Christians who deliberately offend people are much like the shop keeper who curses everyone who walks in the door.
Do you really want to make a sale?
You can be honest and not be objectionable in stating your beliefs.
I think Falwell did that, the vast majority of the time.
Also, The Sermon on the Mount pretty much elevates the humble and the meek and the peacemakers among us. Jesus was no pacifist, but he honored the courage of those who would try to work towards resolution of problems in a peaceful way, even against tough odds and at great risk.
Falwell did this. He was an Ecumenical leader because he practiced the Sermon on the Mount.
Many in his own denomination denounced Falwell for his tolerance.—-LiberalsBy the way, If you dont believe in God, why in the world would you care if 9-11 or Katrina was “God’s Judgement” or not?
I dont think God works that way, but I pray when the sirens go off, just in case.
Falwell is free to think otherwise.
We will find out who is right.
Still, the man has a right to his beliefs. You are the hypocrits if you wish to silence his beliefs.
Cosmos, WS and Doug
Most of your Falwell “quotes” are bogus.
Didn’t Paul F. ROSELL post that he was a “lapsed Catholic”?
Econ says, “Falwell has done more to help unwed mothers, out of his own pocket and through his organization, than any of you.”
Heh, yeah.
Give me 40 million dollars, and I’ll do a lot of good too.
Old Jerry just wanted to do some good and he ended up doing very WELL, thank you very much.
Here is another crazy Blog blasting BOIH Graham and Falwell:
http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl09000e.htm
The radical Baptists are actually kind of fun to argue with, since they don’t really understand that Catholic Monks translated and edited and published the Bible they worship.
There are many Baptists who are open minded and don’t find the need to attack other faiths.
The link, above, however, makes clear that Falwell NEVER said the horrible things about Graham that you are attributing to him!
The link shows that radical Baptists are mad at BOTH Falwell and Graham for trying to forge agreement between faiths.
You are wrong, libs.
You are bigots who do not care enough about your fellow man to know someone before you pass judgement.
Of course, Christians are to leave moral judgement to God.
Paul F. ROSELL,
“Here is another crazy Blog blasting BOIH Graham and Falwell:…The link, above, however, makes clear that Falwell NEVER said the horrible things about Graham that you are attributing to him!”
So WHICH is it? A “crazy Blog”, or an accurate, reliable, and credible source?
cosmosI suggest you do some research of your own.
I have, rather artfully, posted one link that proves many points.
I think that radical Baptists are rather lost. They don’t really understand the false premise upon which they rest their entire attack against other faiths: That the Bible, itself, never refers to itself, that the Bible, by the very words of Jesus, is not the ONLY source of faith or dogma!
However, Falwell was big enough to rise above the historical animosity of many Baptists towards other faiths and form a coalition that did “change politics” as the opening title of this thread states.
Falwell was not at all bigoted. It is clear from the link I posted that Falwell paid a price for his victory over bigotry. He wasnt always right, but he had a huge heart and I admire his work.
Those who attack Falwell, in this, linked Webpage, actually are mad at Falwell for supporting Graham:
http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl09000e.htm
Radical Religious web pages are often filled with facts that are correct and conclusions that are wrong.
“Connecting the Dots” is where they have some logical problems.
However, this link is correct in its statement that Falwell had high praise for Graham:
http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl09000e.htm
March 1980: Falwell tells an Anchorage rally about a conversation with President Carter at the White House. Commenting on a January breakfast meeting, Falwell claimed to have asked Carter why he had “practicing homosexuals” on the senior staff at the White House. According to Falwell, Carter replied, “Well, I am president of all the American people, and I believe I should represent everyone.” When others who attended the White House event insisted that the exchange never happened, Falwell responded that his account “was not intended to be a verbatim report,” but rather an “honest portrayal” of Carter’s position.
August 1980: After Southern Baptist Convention President Bailey Smith tells a Dallas Religious Right gathering that “God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew,” Falwell gives a similar view. “I do not believe,” he told reporters, “that God answers the prayer of any unredeemed Gentile or Jew.” After a meeting with an American Jewish Committee rabbi, he changed course, telling an interviewer on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that “God hears the prayers of all persons…. God hears everything.”
July 1984: Falwell is forced to pay gay activist Jerry Sloan $5,000 after losing a court battle. During a TV debate in Sacramento, Falwell denied calling the gay-oriented Metropolitan Community Churches “brute beasts” and “a vile and Satanic system” that will “one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.” When Sloan insisted he had a tape, Falwell promised $5,000 if he could produce it. Sloan did so, Falwell refused to pay and Sloan successfully sued. Falwell appealed, with his attorney charging that the Jewish judge in the case was prejudiced. He lost again and was forced to pay an additional $2,875 in sanctions and court fees.
October 1987: The Federal Election Commission fines Falwell for transferring $6.7 million in funds intended for his ministry to political committees.
February 1988: The U.S. Supreme Court strikes down a $200,000 jury award to Falwell for “emotional distress” he suffered because of a Hustler magazine parody. Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, usually a Falwell favorite, wrote the unanimous opinion in Hustler v. Falwell, ruling that the First Amendment protects free speech.
February 1993: The Internal Revenue Service determines that funds from Falwell’s Old Time Gospel Hour program were illegally funneled to a political action committee. The IRS forced Falwell to pay $50,000 and retroactively revoked the Old Time Gospel Hour’s tax-exempt status for 1986-87.
March 1993: Despite his promise to Jewish groups to stop referring to America as a “Christian nation,” Falwell gives a sermon saying, “We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours.”
1994-1995: Falwell is criticized for using his “Old Time Gospel Hour” to hawk a scurrilous video called “The Clinton Chronicles” that makes a number of unsubstantiated charges against President Bill Clinton  among them that he is a drug addict and that he arranged the murders of political enemies in Arkansas. Despite claims he had no ties to the project, evidence surfaced that Falwell helped bankroll the venture with $200,000 paid to a group called Citizens for Honest Government (CHG). CHG’s Pat Matrisciana later admitted that Falwell and he staged an infomercial interview promoting the video in which a silhouetted reporter said his life was in danger for investigating Clinton. (Matrisciana himself posed as the reporter.) “That was Jerry’s idea to do that,” Matrisciana recalled. “He thought that would be dramatic.”
November 1997: Falwell accepts $3.5 million from a front group representing controversial Korean evangelist Sun Myung Moon to ease Liberty University’s financial woes.
April 1998: Confronted on national television with a controversial quote from America Can Be Saved!, a published collection of his sermons, Falwell denies having written the book or had anything to do with it. In the 1979 work, Falwell wrote, “I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!” Despite Falwell’s denial, Sword of the Lord Publishing, which produced the book, confirms that Falwell wrote it.
January 1999: Falwell tells a pastors’ conference in Kingsport, Tenn., that the Antichrist prophesied in the Bible is alive today and “of course he’ll be Jewish.”
February 1999: Falwell becomes the object of nationwide ridicule after his National Liberty Journal newspaper issues a “parents alert” warning that Tinky Winky, a character on the popular PBS children’s show “Teletubbies,” might be gay.
September 2001: Falwell blames Americans for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. “The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say, ‘You helped this happen.’”
November 2005: Falwell spearheads campaign to resist “war on Christmas.”
February 2007: Falwell describes global warming as a conspiracy orchestrated by Satan, liberals, and The Weather Channel.
Have a nice (judgement) day, Jerry!
Paul Rossell is a complete fool. If you respond to any of his posts, it is proof that you don’t have enough to do to keep you sufficiently occupied. Thank you.
Yeah, Paul once again proves that he’s a moron. Thank goodness this guy doesn’t teach history. All those years pounding the pulpit saying Nelson Mandela shouldn’t be released from prison and supporting apartheid is just whitewashed with Paul. Paul’s a joke, and considering how eager he is to stand up for racists you have to wonder about him.
Jerry thought a telletubby was gay too.
Steven Davis,
You’re correct about Rosell, but I only wasted a few seconds.
Paul F. ROSELL,
“Cosmos, WS and DougMost of your Falwell “quotes” are bogus.”Posted by ROSELL, May 16, 2007 at 11:23 PM…”cosmosI suggest you do some research of your own.”Posted by ROSELL, May 16, 2007 at 11:51 PM
NOPE!! YOU made the claim that “Most of your Falwell “quotes” are bogus”.
Why should I, WS, and Doug all repeat the “research” that YOU have already done?
It’s up to YOU to defend YOUR claim, with reliable, credible sources.
It’s up to YOU to prove that “most” of the “quotes” at the link I gave are “bogus”.
Or perhaps Paul F. ROSELL does NOT believe in “personal responsibility”?Check this thread later, to find out.
DougSince I know how much you love Ann Coulter, I suggest you fact check her editorial, lol:
http://www.anncoulter.com/cgi-local/welcome.cgi
Coulter is corret, on the telletubby issue: SEVERAL news organizations had reported on the “gay” teletubies before Falwell ever mentioned the issue.
When Falwell did mention the issue, all he did was quote other sources, other MAINSTREAM MEDIA sources!—Steve
Credibility? Please scroll upwards, would you?
It has been claimed, on this Thread, that Falwell “hates Jews” — The historical fact is that Falwell met frequently with Jewish leaders and was an ardent supporter of Israel.
It has been claimed, on this thread, that Falwell called Billy Graham an agent of Satan. I have proven that Falwell had great admiration for Graham.
It has been claimed that Falwell was a bigot. I have proven that Falwell paid a great personal price for forging relationships with many religious leaders of different faiths.
There have been MANY falsehoods printed on this thread.
When one gets knocked down, another pops up.—-As far as South Africa is concerned, no pun intended, but that issue was never black and white.Tribal violence has killed millions, all over Africa.Apartheid was cruel and brutal.What followed was often worse.The last 20 years have seen millions murdered in Africa.Very few of those deaths were at the hands of White people.Also, Nelson Mandela and his wife, are hardly heroes.Remember Winnie? She supported “neclacing” or the placing of a tire around the neck of (Black) political opponents, filling the tire with gasoline, and lighting it on fire.
Do you support necklacing? How can you support Mandella and not support necklacing?
Franklin Graham says “Jerry Falwell was my friend”
A rather odd thing to say if Falwell ever, really, called Billy Graham an ally of Satan, dont you think???
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770515052
This is Cosmos “quote” of Falwell, which has been proven a complete LIE:
“Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan in America.”"The idea that religion and politics don’t mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.”"If you’re not a born-again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.”
(and so on…)
Posted by: cosmos | May 16, 2007 at 11:13 PM “
You libs expect complete, 100% accuracy from Conservatives —Yet you are sloppy as hell in your own posts.
Paul,you are incredibly stupid… We will just leave it at that, okay?
Paul F. ROSELL,
“A rather odd thing to say if Falwell ever, really, called Billy Graham an ally of Satan, dont you think???”
How does Franklin Graham’s not mentioning Falwell’s reported “Satan” quote shortly after Falwell’s death prove that he did NOT say it?
ROSELL: “This is Cosmos “quote” of Falwell, which has been proven a complete LIE:”
NOPE!! I only quoted from http://en.thinkexist.com/quotes/jerry_falwell
And Rosell has still FAILED to prove those quotes, and “most” of the “quotes” at that link are “bogus”.
And Rosell made THAT claim over 2 hours ago??It’s time for Paul F. ROSELL to do some “research”, to back up his claim.
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” -John 3:16-21
The text of St. Matthew runs as follows:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land.Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted.Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Did you read 1 Corinthians 6:9 yet ken?
King James version of 1 Cor 6:9 -Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind
Nathan’s version:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Posted by: Nathan | May 16, 2007 at 10:32 PM
Nice re-write. Congratulations.
Odd that homosexual is in the Bible when it didn’t become a word until 18th 19th century? And Jesus wrote Corth.?
Tom,
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NASB
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NKJV
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
“abusers of themselves with mankind” IS homosexuality. They didn’t use the actual word homosexual when the KJV was written.
I did not change anything.
Nathan,
Tell me what your authority for “abusers of themselves with mankind” IS homosexuality” is.
Thanks.
Tom,
I think it is only fair for me to ask you:
What do you think “abusers of themselves with mankind” means when it was written in the KJV?
Why do you or don’t you agree with the NASB, NIV, or NKJV versions?
Nathan,
“Effeminate” is turned into male prostitutes in one version, sodomites in another. “Abusers” is turned into homosexuals.
I always understood that KJV is the definitive version for Bible literalists. Do you have a different view?
Tom- I think nathan is probably correct in his understanding of the KJV.
Nathan-I think your youthfulness often allows you to go too far.
Mathew 7:1 states”Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment that you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.”While it is untrue that you cannot discern the rightness and wrongness of things through scripture, you cannot judge a person’s status with GOd. As you yourself stated, Salvation is a gift, freely given. It cannot be earned. According to some, neither can it be lost. So, while all these things can be counted as “sin”, and worthy of eternal punishment, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. It is only through acceptance of jesus Christ as lord and savior that one can be saved. It is his work, and purity, that saved. Not man’s. As I have read your posts, that is what I percieve your belief to be. So how is relevant?1) do not judge anyones eternal situation, it is not only wrong, but presumptive upon GOD’s responsibility2) Sin is sin. However, sin is not crime. Crimes can be sins, but this is not a theocracy, so we must learn to discern which sins should be crimes. I would suggest only those that can be shown to be harmful to the state, or to individuals the state has a duty to protect. Homosexuality, and Gay/Lesbian marriages can not be shown tobe either.3)As I recall, Jesus kept his harsh words, as did most of Paul’s writings in the epistles, to those inside the church. Perhaps a good model to follow, no?
Tinky says, “everytime a Republican dies, another gay angel gets their wings.”
Tinky says, “everytime a Republican dies, another gay angel gets their wings.”
Tinky says, “everytime a Republican dies, another gay angel gets their wings.”
Did the Corinthians ever write back?
Did the Corinthians ever write back?
What’s the point of quoting Corinthians and attributing that to what Jesus believed? Paul never knew Jesus, didn’t even think he was a real person. Has Nathan converted from Christianity to Paulinity? Besides, what’s the point of creating a religion out of some guy’s letters? Some people just have nothing better to do I guess.
Tom,
You missed one of my questions:
What do you think “abusers of themselves with mankind” means when it was written in the KJV of the Bible?
I believe that the NASB is the most accurate literal word for word translation we have today.
The KJV is accurate, but written in old english.
The NASB is written in plain English.
Doug,
“Paul didn’t think Jesus was a real person.”
Really? Where do you get that from?
Paul taught Jesus teachings and helped to spread Christianity in the early church.
No one is creating a religion out of his letters. It would be called a doctrine.
Paul was not just “some guy” he was chosen by God on the road to damascus to spread God’s word.
Where are you getting this stuff from?
Someone from the Christian Right answer this question, please – why get so worked up concerning homosexuals when they are such a small portion of the population?
Percentage-wise, there are far more wife-beaters, alcoholics, drug abusers, tax cheats, etc.
Why the fixation on homosexuals?
Littlejohn,
Where have I gone too far?
WS Clark,
There is no fixation. It happens to be a political issue in the spotlight the past few years.
It also happens to be an issue constantly brought up on this blog too.
If you start talking about how beating your wife is not a sin, then I will gladly start quoting scripture to you about how it is.
When someone claims that cheating on your taxses is not a sin, then I will gladly point out how it is.
So far, I have not seen anyone saying the things you listed are not sin, so I don’t post on it.
I have been going to church for many years now and I think the Pastor at any given church maybe talked about homosexuality once or twice.
Nathan- My comment to you is my general opinion, but this is an example, maybe no the best, but an example
“Who cares if it is inolerant to try to influence law to not give special treatment to people who choose to be homosexual!
I have every right, just as Falwell did, to influence the law to not give special treatment based on someone being homosexual.”
Posted by: Nathan | May 15, 2007 at 09:02 PM
Yes, you have a right to try and influence the law, but in this case, why should you? Because it is “sinful” it shouild be illegal?And what “special” rights are the gay/lesbian community asking for?
I think it is quite possible that Jesus cares if you are tolerant or not, particulrly of those outside the church.
WSC-I think because most everyone agrees that your list of scumbags are scumbags, and they are not politically active as a group. I think the Gay/Lesbian community, though smaller, is far more vocal.The squeaky gets the attention and all that. I am not opposed to their civic activity, just explaining while they get attention.
Nathan, perhaps you ought to read parts of the bible that don’t obsess about homosexuality. Paul wrote that Jesus wasn’t a real human in Hebrews 8:4. I’m wondering if you agree with Paul that slavery is okay as well or do you just pick and choose what parts of the bible you’ll agree with?
Well littlejohn,
I appreciate your candor and honesty. I agree with you on many things and appreciate your support when you agree with me.
However, I will not compromise on my not being tolerant of sinful lifestyles.
As Christians in a free society where we can participate at the levels we are allowed, we have a responsability to not condone laws which promote or accept things we believe to be wrong.
Just to be sure:
Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin?
Do you believe that homosexuality is a choice?
If you believe that homosexuality is a choice, then giving homosexuals the privledge of marriage, civil unions, or whatever you want to call them is indeed special treatment for a lifestyle of choice.
My youthfullness has nothing to do with this. There are plenty of “mature” Christians who also do not support homosexual marriage.
Doug,
I read all parts of the Bible.
Hebrews 8:4 says nothing about Paul not believing Jesus wasn’t real. Care to explain how it does?
I don’t pick or choose any part of the Bible.
It is you who is taking parts of the Bible out of context for no other purpose than to bash me and Christianity.
So far I have refuted every point you have made in contradiction to mine about the Bible.
What verse about slavery are you referring to so I can continue?
The point was, as a percentage of the population, there are far more people engaged in the other actions that I mentioned than are homosexual.
Further, simple math will tell you that the number of people that would enter into a gay marriage is infinitesimally small. Why is that perceived as a threat to “traditional” marriage?
Why the interest in activities that affect only a very small portion of the population? Why are the Terry Fox’s and Joe Wright’s making an issue of gay marriage? Why did Mitt Romney flip-flop on support for gay rights? Why is Fred Phelps crazy?
Seems to me that the Christian Right should focus their energies on more pressing issues – like why do 50% of of heterosexual marriages end in divorce?
The point was, as a percentage of the population, there are far more people engaged in the other actions that I mentioned than are homosexual.
Further, simple math will tell you that the number of people that would enter into a gay marriage is infinitesimally small. Why is that perceived as a threat to “traditional” marriage?
Why the interest in activities that affect only a very small portion of the population? Why are the Terry Fox’s and Joe Wright’s making an issue of gay marriage? Why did Mitt Romney flip-flop on support for gay rights? Why is Fred Phelps crazy?
Seems to me that the Christian Right should focus their energies on more pressing issues – like why do 50% of of heterosexual marriages end in divorce?
Nathan,
I disagree with your re-interpretation of the Bible.
Additionally, I believe that most of what Paul had to say in his voluminous letters reflect *his* views, and didn’t necessarily represent what Jesus taught.
Jesus had quite a bit to say about how to treat one another. Jesus has never been reported to have said a single word condemning homosexuality.
Tom,
I have asked you twice now to tell me what you think the KJV means.
I have shown you 3 other Bibles which inerpret the Bible to say homosexuality.
It is not my re-interpretation.
You keep insisting that it is my interpretation or that I rewrote it.
Everytime I show you how you are wrong.
You refuse to anser my questions and instead accuse me more.
I keep answering your questions though.
Anyday you wish to actually start engaging in the discussion and quit with the accusations I am here.
Tom,
If you are going to simply dismiss what is said by Paul because you say it is only his view and not that of Jesus then I must ask you what your standards are.
What parts of the Bible are you willing to accept and which do you refuse because of it being someones view?
Because if at every turn you are going to dismiss what the Bible says, I would like to know what your standards are.
If I open up the red letter Bible, is the only thing you will listen to or accept what is printed in the Red?
I have shown you 3 other Bibles which inerpret the Bible to say homosexuality.Posted by: Nathan | May 17, 2007 at 03:40 PM
I’ll be more clear: I disagree with those re-interpretations, no matter who wrote them.
I understand references to “mankind” to be references to humanity as a whole – men and women. I don’t view sexual orientation to be “abusive.”
And I’ll repeat:
Jesus had quite a bit to say about how to treat one another. Jesus has never been reported to have said a single word condemning homosexuality.
Tom,
So, if Jesus didn’t say anything about something then it is ok?
Is that your standard then?
Jesus said “What you do to the least of these, you do unto me.” and “Love thy neighbor as yourself.”
That is enough for me.
I was at a meeting (sometimes work catches up with me, so I am trying to catch up.
Nathan said”As Christians in a free society where we can participate at the levels we are allowed, we have a responsability to not condone laws which promote or accept things we believe to be wrong”
This is not a theocracy. I would suggest you look at the model I proposed. Pass laws against those things that are harmful to the state, or to the people the state is pledged to protect. Otherwise, we need to pass laws against living together, against the effiminate (whatever that means), against greed and covetous, etc.The list goes on and on. In addition, playing cards is considered immoral by some, playing musical instruments in church is enough to send someone to hell according to some, that list goes on and on too. Civil govenment must look to the interests of all, and while I agree that you have a right to speak your opinion and to push for laws that agree with your position, sometimes the better part of maturity is to not use your “right” to push for your agenda
“Just to be sure:
Do you believe that homosexuality is a sin?”
yes, currently, but not any bigger sin than others. Sins do not equal laws. It can be construed to be sinful to not take care of my body, doesn;t mean it should be illegal
“Do you believe that homosexuality is a choice?
i used to, I am not so sure any more.
“If you believe that homosexuality is a choice, then giving homosexuals the privledge of marriage, civil unions, or whatever you want to call them is indeed special treatment for a lifestyle of choice.”
How is it special? I guess that is where I am coming around to. Same rights as being, or excercising anything else. People have a right to be sinful if they want. They do not have a right to hurt others.
Tom-
I will try and do a little research (don;t have time now) in what the oldest manuscripts have to say, but I generally agree with the interpretation. I also think that Paul was inspired by God to write what he did. However, the background of the letter to the Corinithians, as I recall, was that the Corinthian church was full of sexual immorality of all kinds, and he was admonishing them directly. While the words hold true for all, they were directed specifically to the Corinthian church. That can also be taken in conjunction with Romans 1 as a claim of homosexuality as sin, but certainly not any greater sin than immorality in general. I think the word “abuse” is more of a general term of improper usage of “sexual things” than the abuse is used today. I don;t consider it abusive at all, and I really haven;t heard that taught much. Of course, I could always be wrong
This is an itneresting thought. I don;t know that I buy it, but interesting in it’s proposition. I shall have toponder.
“Paul criticized them because they were engaged in sexual activity which was unnatural for them. For a person with a heterosexual orientation, homosexual behavior is “shameful,” “unnatural,” “indecent,” and a “perversion.” The passage in Romans is not a condemnation of homosexual behavior. Rather, it disapproves of sexual behavior that is against a person’s basic nature (i.e. homosexual behaviors by people whose orientation is heterosexual). Presumably this would condemn heterosexual behavior by gays and lesbians — activity which is equally against their nature. 2
For the vast majority of adults, those who are heterosexual, it is indecent for them to engage in homosexual activities. One can interpret Paul’s writing as stating that, for the small minority of humans who are homosexual, it would be indecent for them to engage in heterosexual activities”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm
Saul/Paul also said that women should not be heard in church, hence the Catholic Church’s ban on women priests.
I am not sure, but I think that if you were to propose at your next congregational meeting that the women remain silent, you might get the gospel beat out of you.
Saul/Paul was just another early Christian leader – no better or worse than any other. The only words that should matter to a true Christian are those of Jesus.
Littlejohn,
I do agree with you. I don’t think we should push anything that is sin as being illegal.
I do not advocate homosexuality being illegal either.
I will not support or promote a law outlawing homosexuality.
Where it becomes a special privledge is that the state is not simply letting it be legal, the state is now sanctioning it.
I disagree with that. I don’t think something which is a chioce behavior deserves special recognition through marriage.
Does that make my position a bit more clear?
WS Clark,
Are you a true Christian? What on earth gives you the audacity to proclaim that the only thing a “true” Christian should care about are the words of Jesus?
What verse are you talking about WS Clark when you speak of Paul. Because you are taking it way out of context.
Context is usually something many of you who wish to attack the Bible do ignore quite frequently.
“What on earth gives you the audacity to proclaim that the only thing a “true” Christian should care about are the words of Jesus?”
The same audacity that allows you to promote a ban on gay marriage – denying your fellow citizens the same rights that you have.
And no, I am no longer a Christian.
I am a reformed Christian, but if you would like to play dueling scriptures, I am up for it. I was raised a strict Lutheran and can quote chapter and verse all day long.
I Corinthians, 14:34-35 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
WS Clark,
Dueling scripture? You are right up there with Doug in that almost every encounter we have had involving scripture you have shown nearly a complete lack of understanding.
What is a reformed Christian?
Let me guess…
You are a unitarian?
Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God, your Saviour, sent to die for your sins?
That is whom he claimed to be, since you quote other things he has said as being good enough for you.
“And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home;…”
I may become a Christian now.
Nathan, you said that I took Saul/Paul’s writings out of context. I posted the verse.
Show me where I took it out of context.
As for Christianity? It is my choice to call myself something other than a Christian. It is also my choice to refer to the words of Jesus.
It is not your choice to criticize my relationship with God or Jesus.
Context is usually something many of you who wish to attack the Bible do ignore quite frequently.Posted by: Nathan | May 17, 2007 at 04:22 PM
Nathan,
Disagreement with your interpretation of the Bible is not the same as “attacking the Bible.” If you have evidence that I’ve attacked anyone’s faith, please paste it in.
Thanks.
By the way, Nathan, you do not “own” Jesus. He is there for alll of us, not just those that see the Bible as a literal text.
WS Clark,
I didn’t say one thing about your choice to do anything or believe anything.
I can disagree with it though.
I never questioned your relationship with God.
I questioned what it is?
You say you are not a Christain, yet you defend your relationship with him.
You say you are not a Christian, yet you also quote Jesus.
I am trying to figure out what your standards are. Right now it appears to be whatever feels good for you, you take. whatever you disagree with you ignore.
So, once again, do you believe all of what Jesus says or only what makes you feel good?
Romney’s going to be the Republican nominee. He needs the conservative Christian vote. He’ll get it, because conservative Christian leaders are giving their imprimatur to him.
Less than two weeks ago Romney gave the commencement address at Regent University, having been invited by 700 Club and Christian Coalition founder (and Regent U founder) Pat Robertson, a Southern Baptist.
Here is what Pentacostalist James Dobson, and the late Southern Baptist Jerry Falwell, both of them mass-media masters, like Pat Robertson, have said about Romney.
Dobson:
“I don’t believe that conservative Christians in large numbers will vote for a Mormon but that remains to be seen, I guess,” Mr. Dobson said on a syndicated radio program hosted by a conservative commentator, Laura Ingraham.
“He’s a nice guy. He’s a very attractive man. He’s got a beautiful wife and a lot of his principles and values are consistent with ours,” Mr. Dobson said.
Falwell:
“If he’s pro-life, pro-family, I don’t think he’ll have any problem getting the support of evangelical Christians,” a founder of the Moral Majority, Rev. Jerry Falwell, told the Clarion-Ledger of Jackson, Mo. earlier this year.
http://www.nysun.com/article/40802
Mark,
I would be curious to see what kind of support he would get.
There are many, many, mant Christians who do not consdier Mormons to be Christian.
I just don’t know…
I would vote for him, because right now my vote is merely against the Democrats.
I have _always_ found the “You’re not a real Christian, I am!”…”NO! I’m the real Christian, NOT YOU!” argument to be patently offensive.
Very broadly: a Christian is one who believes in the divinity of Jesus, and tries to live their lives according to the principles and wisdom attributed to him in the Bible.
Anyone who thinks they speak for what “real” Christianity is, while denying the faith of other Christians, needs to back off and reflect on their faith, and their relationship to the divine.
“So, once again, do you believe all of what Jesus says or only what makes you feel good?”
I would first point you to the Gnostic Gospels, Nathan. While the have yet to be fully translated from the Ancient Greek, it is apparent from them that Jesus did NOT claim to be a Messiah that would die for our sins, merely that he was a (great) spiritual leader.
The most important thing about the Gnostic Gospels is that they are from the third century CE and have not gone through multiple translations during the Middle Ages, as have the King James Version and subsequent editions.
The most telling thing to me is that the story of a Messiah dying for our sins and rising from the dead after three days is an ancient Greek myth.
The (so-called) Apostle Paul was a frequent traveler to Greece.
I am not criticizing anyone’s belief in a Savior or in Jesus as the Son of God, however, I choose to see things differently.
To answer part of your question, I am spiritual, not religious.
I can honor the words of Jesus, just as I can honor the words of Siddhartha.
Nathan, I understand how fundies look at the bible. If I point something out you don’t agree with you just say I’m taking it out of context. Of course you never explain why.
The verse is rather straightforward, “If then he were on earth, he would not be a priest,” Why would someone bother saying “if” if it was a given. Perhaps it’s just the English language you have a problem with. If it was believed he was a real person then the verse would say something completely different like, “He was on Earth and he wasn’t a priest.” But that belief is put in question as a hypothetical. I don’t know why it takes non-believers to point out the obvious; does that frustrate you?
It’s nice to know that you advocate slavery. Do you also share the beliefs that handicapped people shouldn’t be allowed in church?
Falwell no doubt believed that the fact that so many vehemently hated him was evidence he must be doing something right.
In using this logic, Hillary and Bill Clinton must also be in the same class as Falwell. After all, I have seen Republicans still foam at the mouth with hatred for Bill Clinton.
This is what I hate about religion, it always turns into the “I’m right, you’re wrong” debate. And it’s all about nothing.I think you’ll all be disappointed when you die…but of course you’ll be dead so you won’t know how disappointed you are.
That’s true Mary. It’s a very touchy subject.
“I think you’ll all be disappointed when you die…but of course you’ll be dead so you won’t know how disappointed you are.”
To your comment I would add though that if someone who rejects God is wrong, they will find out when they die. I hope that isn’t you.
If the Bible was written today, nobody would think of it as a divine book. It would be rejected without fail because so many people are so cynical these days. Same with Jesus. If he came to your house tomorrow claiming to be the son of God you would throw him out on the street. If people want to believe in fairy tales I have no issue with that. But please keep it in church and out of public life. It is your choice to be miserable because you think you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I for one would rather live my life how I want, and enjoy it. Rather than worrying about Adam and Steve having their wedding vows. It is no threat to me nor is it to traditional marriages, which have an alarmingly high failure rate. Must not be the big institution that the religious right thinks it is.
Outlander, If God is going to send me to hell because I don’t believe in the afterlife and I don’t believe that Jesus was God, then I really wouldn’t want to spend eternity having to worship him/her anyway. To spend eternity with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim Baker, Fred Phelps, and a host of other “holier than thou” types WOULD be hell for me.I’d rather go the other way and be with all the good people like me.
It’s not my opinion Mary, but the words of Jesus. The words that the world hates to hear. And I’m not sure why that is, other than maybe by opening our ears we are forced to face up to our futility and realize that we come woefully short of God’s expectations. No matter how “good” we think we are. And no one really wants to hear that.
When the truth is found, I hope it means the truth to you Mary.
“Heaven for climate, hell for company.” Mark Twain
I can’t think of anything Jesus said that I “hate to hear”, what I “hate to hear” is the way self proclaimed Christians interpet his words to fit their personal agendas and hatreds. He was certainly a lot wiser, kinder, more compassionate, and non violent than a lot of his followers on this blog…I just don’t think he was a god.What you see as the truth is just your faith. I have my own “truths”, but I’m not so arrogant as to tell you that you’re going to be condemned to hell for eternity because you don’t see things the way I do.I’m glad you find peace in the idea that you’ll live forever, but that’s just a little too far from reality for me, and I think it enhances my life, because I believe this is all I’ve got..so I’m going to live every moment for all it’s worth and be happy.
I thought that the WTO would be a good start for transforming the process of government at least across national borders. I quite like the idea of using the secretariat of the WTO as the centre for a Wikipedia of trade – a sort of open source world government at least for a very specific and complicated issue which needs many brains to provide a solution.