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Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted May 21, 2007 at 1:00 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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40 Comments
It’s time for Sedgwick County Commissioners to forget their pride and do Sedgwick County taxpayers a favor — step up to plate and allow Sedgwick County taxpayers to VOTE AGAIN ON THE PROPOSED DOWNTOWN WHITE ELEPHANT ARENA.
The fact is, Sedgwick County can’t afford it.
It has NO VIABLE PURPOSE NOW and a legitimate use probably won’t be found.
With gasoline prices going up through the ceiling, the cost of everything needed to construct the arena is going to shoot up through the ceiling.
The proposed downtown arena would be worse for Wichita than an F-5 tornado.
The public now doesn’t want the arena. Everyone in their right mind knows that but the pro-arena people selfishly fail to admit it.
The Kansas Coliseum has always made a modest profit. It could be renovated for about $65,000,000 or less without the elaborate sky boxes.
Or build the new arena adjacent to the existing Kansas Coliseum and later implode the venerable old work horse coliseum.
Use the proposed downtown arena site for another public or private use: a super Wal-Mart comes to mind.
Search America for a corporation needing a new corporate site and sell them the downtown arena site.
Or ask the federal government to put a high-rise federal building there such as for transportation, military, health, education, etc. There are plenty of smart people in Wichita who can come up with ideas. Obviously don’t leave it up to our current three hold-over lame-duck county commissioners to think of an idea.
THE BOTTOM-LINE IS EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT ABOUT 85% OF SEDGWICK COUNTIANS NO LONGER WANT THE PROPOSED DOWNTOWN ARENA.
SEDGWICK COUNTY HAS MANY HIGHER PRIORITY NEEDS FOR THE ARENA MONEY. USE THE AGGREGATE INTELLIGENCE OF THE PEOPLE TO PRIORITIZE THE USE OF THE MONEY.
AND STOP THE ARENA FOOLISHNESS NOW|
MRage: You are such a fan of football and football stadiums — why are you muddying up your goal by supporting this albatross downtown arena? Do you want to see a downtown football stadium built next to the downtown arena? I guess I don’t understand your position in this at all.
MRage, I remember meeting you at the EAGLE’s Blogger meetup last winter so I know you have good ideas and express yourself well on a person to person basis. I wish you would review your blog comments a time or two before posting to improve the sentence structure so your comments can be more readily understood. Just a suggestion.
jwink-
We voted. We lost. Enough.
Changing the subject a bit. How many here attended River Festival? My family did – we all had a great time. The grandkids loved getting out in the River even though that know it has sharks and alligators! ;^)
So tired one even fell asleep during the fireworks.
So it’s ok to build a new arena in Park City, but not downtown Wichita.
Ahh! The truth comes out.
Hey JWink! I guess you’re shutting up on the $301,000,000.15 figure. Does your group still stand behind that figure?
Yes, Ben…my wife and I picked and chose a few events to attend, and we thoroughly enjoyed ourselves! The music at the food court was enjoyable, the choices of food are fun, tho a tad expensive. Not complaining, tho, it is quite an event!
Ben, I didn’t attend as many as I usually do, not a big fan of crowds, but the stage musicians, art & book fair, and the fireworks were always good, we sat by the Keeper which was cool. Didn’t eat any food this year, I agree with Raptor, it’s a bit pricey.
Wichi – you should have wandered down by Exploration Place and taken a canoe ride with us.
I picked up some sort cold bug over the weekend kept me from seeing the fireworks. If I’ve been writing weird, I was sick!
Doesn’t mean I wasn’t making sense.
I wandered around the river festival couple of days.
The enjoyment is, a party is happening. Some people have a good time. Wichitans need to be larger crowds more often and cheering for something.
Some day we won’t have cheesy music groups. The weird American Idol situation, where nobody singers can generate huge crowds.
It would be very risky putting AI former singers on stages but some day we might have to. Those singers aren’t tied a time period, maybe that’s the difference.
JWink mentions my love for football and that’s the truth. I’m a “stadium” guy arguing we need a quality arena.
My downtown stadium idea won’t be “next” to the arena at all. JWINK knows where I hope to place the stadium. For high school sports, football and track. Track will open to the general public. Gym memberships offered as well.
My stadium will hold future River Festival events.
I’ll solve JWink’s Park City desires.
Let Wink Hartman and Park City buy the Coliseum. Purchase, not hand it over. Sale of the Coliseum goes into the downtown arena. So the sale matters.
The County keeps some control over events using SMG. Guidance on how Park City and Wink construct the new arena.
Wink spending $20 Million for a 5000 seat arena makes no sense to me, if semi professional sports are the main tenant. $20 Million is a great down payment on a better facility.
County should tear down the Coliseum and they build new. A 10,000 to 12,000 seat arena that could have sports like arena football, The THUNDER eventually and dirt shows.
JWINK no longer must you hammer anyone here. Go to Park City and get in Dee Stuart’s face.
They will have their arena!
SMG with Wink can work out a better Arena football league.
We should have a downtown arena with 18,000 seats.
Selling price for the Coliseum that will be destroyed, $1 Million or $2 Million. Depends on how nice Dee acts.
What Park City and Wink are buying is County helping to market the events in future year. County can set prices for tickets better and keep the parking lot free.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Why should Hartman and Stuart deal with the County? Why not just tell the County to go to Hell and build their facility?
Why not Dee re-voters silence themselves. Dee leads the re-vote, you don’t know that?
With Winks small arena, Dee still is making noise about the downtown arena.
So what Mrage? I ahven’t seen Dee as the leader of the re-cote but so what if she is? Is she not a citizen of Sedgwick County? Does that not give her standing?
I have said before and I will say it again. The Park City arena is a horrible idea. If Wink wants to build it then let him. The Thunder has already committed to playing downtown. And why wouldn’t they? They already know what it is like to play out of the city limits. Attendance is 3-4k per game. That number will double when the arena is built downtown. OKC has built 2 arena’s since the brown pile was erected some 27 years ago. KC has built 2 arenas since we opened the Coliseum. This facility is outdated and poorly located. Remember the county had committed to 100 million dollar renovation prior to the vote on the downtown arena. Putting whip cream on a turd doesn’t make it a t-bone steak. Keep this in mind when you re-voters speak. Left to you we would still be driving on dirt roads and going to the outhouse to relieve ourselves.
Ken – From the County, Sept 2004:
“Now, if the vote fails, what will occur at theKansas Coliseum?
Sedgwick County approved a plan to renovate theentire Kansas Coliseum complex at a cost of $55.3million. Design work is continuing through the end of2004. If the vote for a Downtown Arena fails, then theCounty will implement the approved renovation plan(the Britt Brown Arena, along with the pavilions andShow Arena). Construction bids will go out January2005 and construction for the pavilions/Show Arenawill be completed by fall 2005; the Britt Brown Arenarenovations would be completed by Spring 2007.”
That 55.3 million includes the 9.1 million for the Pavilions. That means the renovation cost for Britt Brown as $46.4 million. Far less than the 100 million you claim.
Ben,
If Dee wants to help Wink, she better do it. His goal is the arena and the arena football team.
Look at who they are playing today. Does Wink have the ability to place his team in a better league?
SMG has that ability. SMG has stated some goals for the downtown arena include Arena Football.
Wink better be smart about dealing with SMG. He could use them to better market the team.
SMG was hired to run the Coliseum and downtown arena. So WINK helps to build a new ” Hartman Arena”, he would have SMG as a sports marketing company.
Be against SMG and risk keeping his Arena football team as it is today. Unable to be in a legitimate league.
The new Hartman Arena would have dirt shows and thats more money than nothing! County would help support the Hartman Arena in many ways.
His goals about soccer fields still could happen in the same place as he wants.
Ben,
The arena vote didn’t fail.
Those goals to improve the Coliseum are a map how Wink and Park City could make it happen.
You would complain about that too. If the county would have moved on that project then you would be claiming…”why are they spending that money on a building out in the middle of the country?” “Why are the residents of Park City benefiting and the residents of Wichita are not?” Its always something with you people. You voted….you lost…..now move on. The tax is 80% collected, construction is scheduled to begin soon. Its time to move into the 21st century folks. I forgot…Kansans don’t even recognize evolution. How are the suppose to think in a forward fashion. KNUCKLE DRAGGERS.
Mike – you don’t know that. You are clueless. Your claim is 100% pure BS. They are LIES.
As for Kansans being KNUCKLE DRAGGERS you should take that up with them. I am a transplant and I have TAUGHT evolution.
IDIOT.
Mrage – the Arena failed by over 2-to-1. Then they did the re-vote where it narrowly passed. The plans I quote above are from the County advertisement for the Arena which I kept for reference.
You sure have a lot of faith in SMG. I hope they manage your 15,000 seat Arena well.
Ben,
Wink isn’t doing well without SMG at all. His team is not in any league right now. There are levels of arena football and he needs them, seriously.
Bringing the past CITY ARENA idea is senseless. The County arena was the proper idea and how we are paying for it. Sales tax is better than property tax.
Sales tax is allowing a better arena than property tax could ever create. Sales tax has a end, property tax takes a long time to roll back if ever.
The County vote for the arena passed.
Races are one by one vote if necessary. By one nose. The vote was enough margin and there was no fraud.
Your arguing about a re-vote is because the areba isn’t 18,000 seats. The County isn’t chasing events we have never seen here.
You can’t be sticking to the supposed cost overruns before all the tax is collected.
You know the County can’t afford two arena’s.
Some plan to sell the Coliseum must happen.
Wink’s $20 Million is a fine down payment on $50 to $60 Million arena with 10 to 12,000 seats.
We can’t survive in the regional arena market with a 12,000 seat arena.
15,000 seats cost Millions more 18,000 seats costs Millions more too.
County hasn’t turned down money to support the arena. Until they do, I see the possibly creating 18,000 seats.
Some executives want the Big 12 tournament here because they see the marketing potential having that on national TV from Wichita.
Typos, I was on the phone!
Good luck with that 18,000 seat deal. You seem to be alone with that.
The “supposed” cost overruns are directly from the Sedgwick County website.
I’m not alone, have no doubts. I’m for improving seating in the arena and many desire it.
For too long the arena wasn’t front page news. I wasn’t involved at all.
Then the challenge about 17,000 seats I wrote from Wiki information, you climbed all over it. That’s when I realized the 15,000 seats was too small.
Now I’m saying its regionally imperative to get 18,000 seats. So we can possibly bid for a better variety of events.
If we had 17,000 for basketball, I might have been fine with it.
Until the Big 12 official said, the facilities they choose should have 18,000 floor seats.
There is the evidence we must improve the arena.
I don’t care if I’m the only one on any project. No one denies my call, they take time to talk. My letters get a response. Others like my views. Their not blogging here.
I’ve met some of the people in the County and City I’ve been writing to prior to years before the arena vote.
Executives that went to Oklahoma City to see the Big 12 tournament, said yes, it should happen here.
Many went to Kemper Arena and saw games on national TV from there for years.
National TV has to show events in our downtown arena occasionally and that’s more likely if the facility had 18,000 seats.
“So it’s ok to build a new arena in Park City, but not downtown Wichita.
Ahh! The truth comes out.”
Joe! The difference is that the small arena being built in Park City is being built by a businessman. I’m sure a Libertarian would support that! That is a capitalist arena; not a Communist (government ownership of the means of production) one.
Good luck with that Mrage.
;^)
No Ben! I wasn’t meaning Wink’s arena. I was speaking directly to JWink proposal to build a new arena next to or on top of the old Brit Brown.
JWink’s word: “Or build the new arena adjacent to the existing Kansas Coliseum and later implode the venerable old work horse coliseum.”
So in his mind, it’s ok to build a $178 million dollar arena, so long as it is in Park City and not downtown Wichita.
Remember yesterday that I said the re-vote group concerns about cost or tax collection is a farse? JWink is one of the main organizers of the re-vote group. His own words confirm that the group is all about not having a downtown arena, but it’s ok to have it in Park City.
And you think Wink’s arena is capitalist? Do you know how many years that Wink’s arena will be tax free? He got a huge tax abandment for his arena, so did Wild West World. Park City is basically giving away millions to the Wink arena in hopes that it will pay off by having people dine at Craker Barrel and getting a Pepsi at QT on the Pit Stop part of Park City.
The renovations of Kansas Colisuem complex would have shut it down for a year and a half. Meaning no concerts or events in the Wichita area that would have been held at Brit Brown. The Thunder would have to move to Topeka for two seasons while the renovations took place. Without entertainment events and concerts and other shows, that would be millions in lost revenue for the county, not including the arena in loss economic impact and a determent for business recruitment.
Plus the county commissioners would had to issue Bonds to collect the money to pay for the renovations, for which would have cost the county between $80 million to $110 million to pay for it as interest on 20 years on $60 million would add up quick. They would have to tap into property owners to repay the bonds costing a home owner quite the penny over the years just to renovate the Kansas Colisuem.
When finding this out, community leaders and the City of Wichita stepped in for an alternative plan. A downtown arena to replace Brit Brown, in the mean time, the events at Brit Brown would continue and nothing skips a beat.
And by the way. The county was going to be forced by lawsuits to renovate the Kansas Colisuem. It had pending lawsuits for ADA compliance issues that have been going on for a decade.
Take your pick Ben!
I choose the downtown arena for Liberatrian reasons. It was the best option at the time and would cost less for each person. Libertarians are fans of sales tax to fund government, not property tax or debt financing like Bonds. That is why I’m a huge supporter of the Fair Tax. Because sales tax is a tax on consuption. Poor people get refunds on that, so it doesn’t hurt the poor.
“Poor people get refunds on that, so it doesn’t hurt the poor.”
Only a fraction Joe!; not all of it.
According to the County the renovations would have cost (46.4 million) a small fraction of the cost for the new one.
I would likely oppose JWink’s proposal for building an entire new one ‘up there’; however in its defense I would note lower property acquisition costs.
The arena I was referring to as capitalist is Wink Hartman’s; not JWink’s. I support Hartman just as I typically support businessment pursuing their dreams. And that one IS capitalist.
I repeat my question from yesterday: spring 2010 – what events do I anticipate that might draw me in?
Ben,
Wait until SMG tells you what events will happen.
In the meantime we must improve the downtown arena in seating, so SMG has a better marketing situation. You want to see events that have never happened here!
It’s our decision, not SMG to have the increased number of arena seats.
The County has to realize we’ll be better off in a little more larger arena with 18,000 seats. We don’t want the existing plan to squeeze those seats in either. The structure has to be a little larger.
Maybe some of those on site parking spaces for the richest get wiped away.
Designer tried to tell me on site parking would be good for my stadium. Maybe for drive through drop offs but I want equal access for all those who park.
Handicapped should be able to park on my stadium site but that’s it.
Lower costs for rebuilding the Coliseum say nothing about seats increases.
The old information doesn’t say cost is for a 15,000 seat arena.
Those were amounts to replace the 10,000 seats.
Wichita is not regionally competitive with a small arena as the main one.
Downtown has to improve seating.
The Coliseum location is still a viable place for small events. Those with 5000 to 10,000 fans.
Hartman would be a smarter business man if him and Park City bought the Coliseum. The County would tear down for free to them.
Wink puts his $20 Million into a more capable arena for events. He’s smart using SMG to market the arena football team.
I guess I’ll wait for SMG then. And, that means there are no criteria upon which to judge success or failure of your arena.
As for 18,000 seats – ain’t gonna happen. Remember, you even denied that was the number for a long time but belatedly admitted I was right. Now I am telling you that Joe! will have his way – a 15,000 seat Arena.
As for SMG – well, I don’t know what to expect so I will just wait and see.
My prediction stands – no Big 12, no NCAA. And probably no bowling tournament.
Ben! How can it be capitalist, when Park City gave Hartman millions in tax abatements?
$55.3 million initiated with 20 year bonds at 7% and taken to account the future value of that initial $55 million as 20 years pass on its settlement date and your talking about a $212 million dollar bill when all said in done.
It’s like these people who said they just bought a $100K house. I say, No! You just bought yourself a $300,000 house once you get done paying for it.
I’m not a big fan of government borrowing money. It cost a boatload and it does nothing but waste much more than the intital loan to pay it off and it goes straight from your tax payers pocket to the investors pocket.
The Downtown arena is bought and paid for by the end of this year with every single penny being put towards the arena, reserve fund and left over for the pavilions.
It’s the best option. If you don’t see that, then I’m sorry! You’re just going to be against the downtown arena on principle like the rest of the re-vote crowd.
Why do you think JWink suggest putting a Wal-Mart in the footprint of where the downtown arena is going to be? Because he thinks it will be absolutely humiliating to have a Wal-Mart in the downtown area. It’s a great way for him to say that Wichita is so podunk and trailer trash that they have a Wal-mart were an arena going to be. He wants Wichita to be an embarrassment and have no growth, so does Dee Stuart of Park City. He’s an asshole, through and through.
Ben,
You can claim some “win”. I was told by the City planner the information about 17,000 seats. I used Wiki to confirm it.
The info didn’t seats specify for basketball!
15,000 for basketball, I don’t accept at all. Never did. For the longest time I assumed it was 17,000 seats.
You better play the lotto if your predictions are that truthful. Why aren’t odds the same, the County won’t change their mind on increasing the seats.
Joe willing to stand up before the Council and mention concerns about seating capacity needs increasing, he’s partly a believer already.
Can’t blame Joe for believing in the 15,000 seats because Ron Holt does.
They base faith on County tax money coming in and nothing else. They can afford the 15,000 seat arena.
Some “expert” told the County we should only have a 15,000 seat arena.
That expert didn’t understand a traveling event like the Big 12 tournament.
I believe Kansas City HOK might have kept our arena smaller so it wouldn’t be in competition for events with the Sprint Center.
Remember those guys are trying to lock the tournament up forever like it was at Kemper. Why add to the arena competitors so close with Kansas City.
KC has controlled the arena market over State of Kansas forever since Kemper opened.
The info didn’t specify seats for basketball!
Joe why don’t you email the Kansas Libertarian party and ask them what they think of the arena tax, or Karl peterjohns Kansas taxpayer network what they think. I think i know the answer already.
I’m my own person. I don’t follow Political Parties to the tee and take marching orders like sheep. I know you’re used to that, being a Democrat and all.
Jump!
How High?
Joe I’m glad you know what political party I belong to considering that I don’t believe I have ever mentioned it. Yet while you claim to be a Libertarian your support of government funds for the Arena Waterwalk, so on ad infinitum puts you more in the socialism category the exact opposite of Libertarianism. BTW socialism is a far left ideology yet you claim to despise leftists?
http://www.lpks.org/LPKSResources/LPKSDocuments/LPKSPlatform/tabid/98/Default.aspx
“He’s an asshole, through and through.” Did they teach you that in your communications class Joe!? Is that how you attempt to make your feeble points?
Tom P – a clarification: ’socialism’ would be supporting public welfare sorts of things like health care access – this is typically done in European countries for example. What we are seeing with Joe!’s projects is more in line with “government ownership of the means of production.” I would refer you to the writings of Marx and Engels for a further detailing of that economic theory.
Since we don’t have a professional sports entity here, who was supposed to generate the passion for the arena?
The stand alone arena is a civic improvement, that’s necessary. Events that pass by Wichita must be invited to come here.
There is no evil intention to enslave this community forever. The project is borrowing a collection to construct it.
If constructed the right way, I say with 18,000 seats, corporates could find the arena more attractive. Partner with the County so all the costs aren’t theirs alone. Less chance of future tax increases.
We are worse off to keep the Coliseum as our one arena. That would be political degradation forced on the community.
The County was sued to fix it, what if that never happened?
The City was asking for an arena downtown and people rejected it.
It was too vague back then.
Today, we can see new arena’s around us and create one that’s competitive. We voted, it passed.
We can’t stand silently and not demand a regional arena.
What’s the political group to join that supports apathy.