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Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted May 18, 2007 at 1:02 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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49 Comments
Thanks to Phillip, I requested a normally recurring Community thread because Open threads get so national political bickering.
Sometimes local eventsneed similar rants.
So lets use Community for local or in state issues. The arena, water, what Wichita loses or hasn’t fixed.
What the state fails to do. Whatever and wherever people have concerns.
Announcements of community gatherings too.
With ongoing Greensburg situation, that will be talked about for a long time.
I always remember an incident in Scouts at Philmont where our hiking group had run out of water with several miles to hike to our destination. Somehow a canteen was found full of water. One scout grabbed the canteen and drank half of that water leaving the remaining half for the other 15 or so hikers.
This is the way the downtown arena is working. About half the voters voted for it and half voted against it. Its NOW estimated that 85% of Sedgwick County voters, taxpayers and residents NOW DON’T WANT THE PROPOSED DOWNTOWN WHITE ELEPHANT $300,000,000.13 DOWNTOWN ICE ARENA because of its total LACK of purpose.
If Wichita had any politicians with leadership skills who would stand up and face the people, without spin, dodge, weave and duck … he/she would step up and say we’ve got to bring the voters together on this issue, not keep them divided for years down the road on this arena issue.
As the great American observor, Alexis De Toqueville observed, this is TYRANNY OF THE (VERY SMALL) MAJORITY AT ITS WORST.
I know the tiny group of arena supporters would scream like stuck hogs against a revote because it selfishly benefits them.
But the politicians who have these arena billions tied up need to take a realistic look at this huge expenditure for a project for which there is no demonstrated purpose and let the voters VOTE AGAIN ON THE ARENA ISSUE.
As an act of public service Jwink, why don’t you post the objectionable actions of the Sedgwick County Commissions meeting here at the WE Blog.
You can get information online from the open records act at:http://www.sedgwickcounty.org/DIO/kora_request_form.htm
With rising gas prices, I wonder how much higher the cost of the arena will go? (It will rise!!) Is there a point where it becomes a financially bad idea?
My biggest concern is not the initial cost–even tho it keeps going up constantly. But the ongoing operational cost are the great unknown. Will it become another sinkhole for public money forever?
So far, at least for me and my family, River Festival has been a lot of fun. Loved Guess Who and Steppenwolf especially.
Only real complaint is their strict ‘no outside food/drink’ policy. With five kids it (a) gets real expensive and (b) they can’t really eat the food. I think they should allow at least some amount of such food/drink.
raptor – a mechanism for covering the Arena’s operating deficits has been proposed. Ed Wolverton rejected it out-of-hand.
I think it will, Yo have the Hartman arena going to be built in park city private money vs quasi communist arena being built downtown who is more effective at running a business the state of free enterprise. No downtown parking going to a long lasting problem. How about safety, a concert gets out a 12AM do you want your kids walking 5-10 blocks downtown in the dark. Are their enough shows to keep an arena solvent, neither Tool or Toby Kieth sold out the coliseum most show don’t so adding more seats just means more seats remain empty.
Ben you just got to learn the fine art of sneaking? Like bringing your own candy to the movies .88 cents at walmart $5.00 at movie
Kolb needs to respond to the people on why the city is passing up $100 million with the loss of the bowling tournament.
If it is about a casino then he needs to step up and say so.
Why isn’t the city council outraged about this loss? What are they going to do about it? They have not even responded to it.
STS, maybe because they dont give a happy buggered rat?
I mean, if it isnt heavy industry or aircraft related, they dont consider it economic development.
Typical. Jump over a dime to get to a penny….
How in the world does Wichita Festivals, Inc, get away with requiring a button to attend the dedication of the Keeper tonight? That was paid for with taxpayer funds—LOTS of taxpayer funds, and Wichita Festivals, Inc is trying to profit from that?
Something is wrong here…
raptor – I don’t think they are requiring the button for that event.
Adding the $100,000,000.11 loss due to cancellation of the National Bowling Convention in Wichita … to the previously adjusted figure of $300,000,000.33 for the proposed downtown arena and required infrastructure for the surrounding area gives a current total of:
$200,000,000.22 for arena planning, real estate and construction, etc.
plus $100,000,000.11 for improvements to St. Francis and Emporia streets and construction of a giant concrete box culvert to carry rain water from the arena to the Arkansas River,
Plus loss of $100,000,000.35 to offset funds LOST BY WICHITA because of cancellation of the National Bowling Convention that has fled from Wichita.
ACCORDING TO MY CALCULATION, THIS TOTALS TO SOME $400,000,000.68 AND STILL RISING FOR THE ILL-ADVISED ALBATROSS, WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ICE HOCKEY ARENA FOR WHICH NO VIABLE USE HAS BEEN DISCOVERED SO FAR.
Remember, the acoustics of a sports arena are not generally conducive for musical concerts, plays or other similar programs EXCEPT where the background music/noise is so deafening that real music cannot be readily heard.
Republican: I’m currently busy working on forming an artistic mold to produce little orange statues of Wichita’s two-time candidate for President of the United States, Mr. Earl Browder, long-time chairman of the American Communist Party. I plan to award these little plastic statues to various Wichita hold-over county commissioners and other politicians entitled: “A little orange Communist statue for the dashboard of your car.”
heheheh Wink!
Is that anything like the song about the “plastic Jesus sittin’ on the dashboard of my car”?
JWink – give the first one to our resident “Libertarian”!
;^)
According to the radio I’ve been listening to all morning at work, a festival button is not required but they are requesting that you wear one if you have it. The request makes no sense but whatever… This having been the first summer that I’ve been in Wichita during the festival since I moved here I was hoping to make it out there, unfortunately I haven’t yet.
I should have specified that I meant for the Keeper of the Plains dedication…
I like the new Keeper exhibit… I have already been over the bridges, through the walk area there around the Keeper… I’m pleased with it…
Has anyone else noticed all of the security cameras mounted out there? By my count there were 8 cameras… As i understand it, thoes cameras (and the ones temp setup for the riverfest) feed directly into the new 911 Ops center. Cool huh?
Tony,
If I were a terrorist, the Keeper of the Plains statue would be my very first target. Having 8 cameras feed directly to the 911 Operations Center makes perfect sense.
Why would terrorists bother to make an attempt to destroy Wichita when the City Council is already doing it?
An attack would be redundant.
Someday I’ll walk on the bridge and take the gander up close. Its fine.
Terrorist would fly a jet into the Epic Center to catch our attention.
The City and County govs, police and sheriff right there would feel the terror and hear it.
FBI and IRS.
That’s the target.
I wish some locals would stop targeting the arena for attacks.
Without vote fraud, there shouldn’t be any reason to revote.
We had to replace the Coliseum.
Cities around us have arena’s. They used tax money too. Ours is costly but worth it.
I demand it must have 18,000 floor seats, less push to get people in luxury boxes.
If doubters understood what events the County was chasing, like the Big 12 basketball tournament, they could understand goals of the facility better.
We’re chasing events other communities, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Omaha and Kansas City are trying to get for their arenas.
Those who want to keep the 15,000 seats are curious to me. 15,000 knocks from the consideration getting some basketball tournaments. The Big 12. March Madness.
Doubtful the MVC tourney would move to a 15,000 seat arena.
The arena is in our community best interest.
“I demand it must have 18,000 floor seats, less push to get people in luxury boxes.” How’s it going with your “demand”?
” If doubters understood what events the County was chasing, like the Big 12 basketball tournament, they could understand goals of the facility better.” Well, even you have acknowledged it won’t be Big 12. So, what WILL it be?
Question: How will be fund the operating subsidies? I have proposed a mechanism; Wolverton rejected it out of hand.
I think the concern that the Arena will soak up funds and that Century II would therefore suffer might be the reason behind the loss of the $100 million bowling tournament.
Why can’t the Arena backers arrange for their Arena to host the bowling tournament?
How is the naming coming along?
For any arena to be remotely viable, it has to seat 18,000 people. If I remember correctly, to be considered for an NCAA tournament game, the facility has to seat at least 17,500. I believe the Big 12 has a similar requirement. To build an arena that is just short of that requirement would be idiotic.
To build a 15,000 seat arena (current Sedgwick County arena plan) knowing that you could not host NCAA or Big 12 Tournament B’Ball games would be ridiculous.
Perhaps what needs to happen is that the pro-18,000 crowd get a ballot measure to support that.
What it’s going to be is 15,000 seats. And, when it fails, they will blame us.
I have not build any arenas lately Ben, but I would imagine that the cost differential between building a 18K facility would not be THAT much greater than a 15K arena.
The difference would be in the type of events that it would attract.
In Phoenix, they wanted to build a domed stadium for the (football)Cardinals, but the team wanted to play on natural grass.
Solution? The grass field is on a massive tray that is kept outside the stadium until just before game time, then it is slid into the stadium on a layer of air.
If they can figure out how to have a natural grass field inside a domed stadium, certainly we can figure out how to meet requirements for major sporting events.
WSC – just watch. It will be 15K. I am not involved; just an observer. Maybe Mrage can get it changed. That is the reason for my suggestion to HIM that he get it on the ballot for 18K seats.
Ben,
I don’t support any re-vote. The County shouldn’t have to extend the tax or budget more than their spending today.
If any research is done on other communities constructing their arena’s, business entities were huge partners.
I don’t like Bob Hanson’s views from the Wichita Sports Group at all. He’s alright as a person but thinks Wichita can’t act like a joined business group to support the arena like other communities.
Business has to improve the Carena idea. From 15,000 to 18,000 floor seats.
Including KU as an event consideration. KSU too. WSU creating four teams tournaments events, with national TV exposure.
Business has to promote marketing and advertising packages.
This is more than those who support WSU advertising when they show road games on Channel 12.
SMG hired is the marketing company chosen to run the facility and I’m surprised none of them have spoken up. Marketing a 18,000 seat arena is better than a 15,000 seat.
When people say the Big 12 has no reason to play games in Wichita…
I say the Big 12 must consider State of Kansas to hold their tournament in our border occasionally.
Get the MVC to move their basketball tourney to Wichita.
Occasionally we’ll sell out the arena with concerts. Occasionally we will get college basketball tournaments on national TV.
Maybe the arena will sell out with other events. I don’t know if the Bowling tournament could happen there or not. If so at Century II, I don’t know why not at the arena.
That’s in 2011. We should have the arena done by 2009 or 2010. Just in time!
The Bowling Championship would be interested in an 18,000 seat arena.
We don’t need the re-vote.
Business has to step up and partner in the arena to make it work. The County can only do so much financially.
The Carena! That was a typo but a nice arena name.
I don’t know who yet wants to name the facility.
It’s going to take $20 to $30 Million more to get 18,000 seats.
The Keeper has 12 full color cameras, running over fiber to City Hall where it is monitored 24×7 by City Hall Security (WPD).
Ben,
What’s that downtown financing plan you have that was rejected by Wolverton.
He has a much choice on the arena as you do.
Because he rejects it, the downtown arena long term operation costs are not doomed.
The arena requires corporate partnership.
The downtown arena operations isn’t going to cost anymore than it cost to run the Brit Brown arena.
Do you think that Sedgwick County runs Brit Brown with no money?
The Downtown Arena is going to replace Brit Brown, hence all operation cost and employees will transfer to BB to the new downtown arena.
If the Bowling Congress is lost, then sell Century II to the Casino developers.
And JWink is a damn liar. Yeah! I’m waiting for him to go in front of the County Commissioners next week to explain to them that the arena going to cost $300 to $400 million. What a joke!
JWink and other Jerry Falwell types of anti-arena people don’t recall or know the circumstances that lead to the downtown arena vote.
The Downtown arena is going to cost everybody less money than it would rebuilding Brit Brown, which was already planned and approved without any voters consent. The Downtown Arena brought back the process to the public and democratically.
There was no election fraud or any lies that were told about the Arena. A re-vote is not necessary.
You either voted to approve a 1% sales tax for 30 months to raise $185 million for a downtown arena or you didn’t. End of story!
They are going to collect and exceed the $185 million mark and the arena still will cost, complete less than $185 million.
These are facts.
JWink and the anti-arena, anti-gay, anti-casino, anti-porn shops, anti-Sunday liquor sales can cry a river as much as they want.
“The Bowling Championship would be interested in an 18,000 seat arena.” WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING?
“What’s that downtown financing plan you have that was rejected by Wolverton.
He has a much choice on the arena as you do.”
ACTUALLY, WOLVERTON HAS A HELL OF A LOT MORE PULL THAN I DO ON IT. MY PLAN – ESTABLISH A TAX BENEFIT DISTRICT TO SUPPORT YOUR ARENA. THEY TELL ME IT IS A BENEFIT FOR OLD TOWN BUSINESSES; ESTABLISH A DISTRICT BASED UPON THAT.
“Business has to step up and partner in the arena to make it work. The County can only do so much financially.” GO FOR IT MRAGE; IT IS YOUR JOB TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.
“If the Bowling Congress is lost, then sell Century II to the Casino developers.” TELL THAT TO THE MAYOR.
“anti-gay, anti-casino, anti-porn shops, anti-Sunday liquor sales can cry a river as much as they want.” SINCE I KNOW NOBODY INVOLVED WHO FITS THAT DESCRIPTION I WILL DISMISS THAT AS THE RAVINGS OF A COMMUNIST.
“lies that were told about the Arena. ” A 45% INCREASE IN CORE COSTS IS A LOT MORE OVER-RUN THAN SHOULD BE ACCEPTED. THE ADVERTISED COST WAS BOGUS.
12 Cameras at the Keeper? A little much? and there’s no money for cameras in police cars, traffic enforcement, high crime areas ?
A casino downtown will turn the place into a “honky tonk” — downtown will cease to be a family destination — other ways to bring people and investment into downtown —- look at Grant Park in Chicago, Navy Pier, Riverwalk in San Antonio …..
put the casino on the edge of town
I read that Reno County needed about Two million to repair their conditions at the local river and flood sites.
Perhaps Sedgwick County can loan them some of that arena money at a reasonable interest rate. Then Sedgwick County could actually do something good with the Arena money. :)
Ben! Are you familiar with Jerry Winkleman (JWink of this blog) and Darrell Leffew (the guy who started the anti-arena agenda and prior city council candidate) or how about Troy Newman of Operation Rescue?
Who do these people have in common? They belong to a far right Republican organization known as the Kansas Republican Action Assembly.
Their goal is to oppose the right to choose, oppose Sunday Liquor Sales, Gay Marriage and I can go on and on. But to stop the construction of the downtown arena is also another one of their many agendas.
You walk with the anti-arena crowd you walk with them.
Ben,
I have no idea what size space the Bowling Championship needs.
Century II can’t get the tourney, then there is no other place for it.
Your fears of Century II closing and the symphony having no place to do their events aren’t real.
The arena is not a replacement for the convention center, fine! Yell at the City not the County. The arena has nothing to do with Century II.
City won’t have extra funds to build a new convention center until they sell the Hyatt!
Sell the Library building too. Their not moving until a new Library is built.
Wolverton works for the City and may have influence about downtown parking, but the arena specifics, I have no idea his influence there.
City planner is more important than Wolverton?
For the arena to grow, yes, I’m trying to wrangle some corporate help. I don’t control their time to do anything.
Too much uncertainty still exists because the County isn’t chasing events. If Corporations know what events could happen in the arena, they imagine how to market those those things.
County chasing events that could be on national TV, matters! It matters today!
I can’t yell and scream at HOK to speak up either. NONE OF THEM publicly has announced why 15,000 seats is regionally reasonable!
The lack of getting some tournaments with those few seats is a huge problem.
Joe described the personal space per seat, but I’m saying we can have the same quality seating in an arena with 18,000 floor seats.
I reject Joe being okay about it. That comes from using only County money. They have enough tax for the 15,000 seats. They might not for 18,000 seats. It’s going to take some redrawing.
When that change will happen, I don’t know today! I hope we get the process going sooner than later.
If we had a 18,000 floor seat arena equal to other arena’s around and the County is chasing events the public knows about, the protesters wouldn’t being saying anything.
You can have concerns about the long term operation costs but that doesn’t have to end the project.
Anti-arena have to agree, their goal is to keep the poor Coliseum going. Keep Wichita out of the event market. Not competitive with Tulsa, Oklahoma City,or Omaha. We can be in the arena game with Kansas City too.
Downtown is always going to be a better location than where the Coliseum is, that is fact. People can have concerns about the downtown parking, but that’s okay!
Mrage! You’re doing good work.
I plan on going in front of the County Commission soon to speak against the anti-arena group.
I will see if I can speak the same day. It’s this Wednesday, for which I will be going out of town for a couple of days, but I might be able to slip in Wednesday morning, if I can be slotted on the Commission agenda. I might be too late for this coming week, but I will the next following chance I can.
I’ll put a word out on the seating capacity concerns you have.
Joe,
I’m heading out of town myself on Wednesday for a week.
The County Commission and Buchanan know my seating upgrade desires if they read emails to them.
Ron Holt I’ve talked with. Bob Hanson. Don’t let Bob Hanson spout his “we don’t have two arena’s” story.
We only need one 18,000 seat arena, for the Big 12 mens and could use Koch Arena for the Big 12 women.
I’ve written board members of the Wichita Sports group.
Tulsa has no Big 12 teams but they are chasing the tournament.
We can’t have the 15,000 seats and stay competitive, specifically for basketball tournaments.
The Big 12 tourney should happen occasionally in the State of Kansas. The event can’t past us by forever. Going to OKC, possibly Tulsa and Omaha. It has to come here.
It will be in Kansas City, Dallas, San Antonio and St. Louis.
If we want the MVC tourney in Wichita, they would require same as the Big 12 in seating requirements.
County started with a limited plan and the tax will afford it.
But arena evidence around us exists, we would have the smallest facility among our closest event competitors.
The County can’t afford more seats. But they should be chasing corporate dollars demanding partnerships. They would have a better chance getting the same events that go to other arenas.
If Olathe has a chance they would build an 18,000 seat arena and don’t think they aren’t trying to scheme to make it happen. Trying to change Star Bonds, to build a soccer stadium or arena and use the money for buildings. Its only for landscape now and clearing land.
They want to try it because their arena would still be in the Kansas City market.
That’s why Sedgwick County can’t fail this arena idea. It could be eclipsed. Olathe wouldn’t try the arena project if Wichita can get some KU off campus games, occasionally.
Our arena has to include KU. With 15,000 seats they aren’t trying to include KU.
Jayhawks could always deny to play there. Too few seats, lack of TV coverage.
We have to offer the same financial package as the Sprint Center. Business has to partner with the County that way.
SMG has to get busy. It would help if they suggested the 18,000 seat arena would benefit their marketing plans.
“We only need one 18,000 seat arena, for the Big 12 mens and could use Koch Arena for the Big 12 women.”
Mrage – didn’t you say before we need BOTH the Arena and coliseum for that plethora of basketball games you will procure?
River Fest ended on a high note with a fantastic fireworks display. Earlier in the day our group gave canoe and kayak rides on the River to all interested. A lot of festival goers got an opportunity to enjoy the river between the 2nd st bridge and the Keeper.
Never been to a River Fest, too much walking for my screwed up back and legs. Could rent one of those scooters I suppose, but not sure with all the steps and uneven surfaces. What’s the access for handicap like at River fest?
Ben,
Too much uncertainty with the Coliseum.
In the long term, Wichita probably needs two arenas. What about the dirt shows? Is the County getting out of that business?
The Coliseum can’t be sold as is to anyone else as an arena.
Until the Casino location is answered, Bob Knight could take the property over.
I don’t know if Phil Ruffin wants a Casino next door to his dog track with slots. I doubt it!
In the short term, trying to get the Big 12’s attention, the suggestion to use Koch Arena for the Big 12 women’s is allowable.
Tulsa will use Oral Roberts arena for the Big 12 womens.
We need a dirt show facility long term, so if thats the current Coliseum location in the future, okay. Rebuilding that facility, it probably needs 12,000 seats.
County doesn’t want to pay for two arena’s. Some corporate has to buy the Coliseum. Or become the major sponsor.
Park City and Wink could partner in the idea. They would keep it at 10,000 seats.
Again, I doubt the Coliseum location will become a Casino.
Rep – quite good actually. Depending on exactly what you need we might have even been able to get you out in a canoe!
some corporate … good luck with that! And if you really think you will get your Arena to 18,000 you better get on it. It ain’t gonna happen.
Meanwhile, you seem happy to see a $100 million deal fall through.
“SMG has to get busy.” Then YOU better tell them that. It ain’t my job.
Ben,
What $100 Million deal I’m happy to see fail?
SMG isn’t on my email or calling list. They know the difference between marketing a 18,000 and 15,000 seat arena.
SMG is marketing Tulsa BOK arena and they are bidding for a future Big 12 tournament, next week in Colorado.
SMG is doing what next week for us? With 15,000 seats no reason for Sedgwick County to be at the Big 12 meetings.
We have to try for next years Big 12 meetings with a 18,000 seat arena under construction downtown.
Tulsa and Omaha are hoping the Big 12 doesn’t schedule their tournament too many years ahead. Next weeks meeting is about site location for the 2009 season.
In 2008, the Big 12 tournament will be at The Sprint Center.Kansas City is going out of their way to lock up the tournament, like it used to be at Kemper Arena.
Other communities are hoping the Big 12 keeps moving the tournament around.
I don’t know what will happen to the Coliseum, its not my concern to find a corporate to buy it.
Park City and Wink have their oppurtunity. Wink could have a place for Arena football, maybe The Thunder if they don’t do well downtown and dirt shows. A 10,000 seat facility. The Coliseum rebuilt.
SMG has announced desires for arena football in the downtown arena, regardless what Wink is doing.
Should the County stop SMG from considering Arena football downtown.
The $100 Million Bowling Championship…I hope the city works that out but doesn’t seem likely.
What could I do, hope more for them to make it happen?
interesting site