“It’s fine to be a religion man,” a distant relative of two of the defendants in the alleged Fort Dix plot, told the New York Times. “But if you get too much to the religion, you get out of your mind and you do stupid things.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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66 Comments
Amen.
“But if you get too much to the religion, you get out of your mind and you do stupid things.”
Yep . . . Phelps clan . . . yep . . . connie morris . . . yep . . . teaching id in school . . . yep.
Sounds like the truth to me.
Too much of anything can be bad for you.Too much liquiorToo much foodToo much sexToo much computingToo much exposure to the media and their masters in the entertainment industryToo great a emphasis on self
All of the above have terrible consequences. Broken bodies, families and societies.
On the opposite side what about:Enough loveEnough hopeEnough generosityEnough belief in something greater than yourself?
These are the things that the founders of this nation (human beings/ thus flawed) believed in. A greater dependency on said principles would not hurt us, but help us, and heaven knows as a people we really need some help.
BTW:As far as the terrorists in Jersey go, when you belong to a religion that teaches that it is OK to convert by the sword this type of behavior is to be expected. “Real” Christians (those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ) outgrew that kind of behavior centuries ago.
And yes I know there are bad Christians, there are bad agnostics and bad atheists too. It goes with being human.
WHHHOOOOO WHAT! seanmahair…
IS there such a thing as “Too much sex”??
What the hell, how is that possible???
Maybe the only thing i could think of is that having too much sex with other people other than your significant other…
I think religion is one of the most distructive forces in our world…just look at how it has justified man’s inhumanity to man throughout our history.Imagine there’s no HeavenIt isn’t hard to doNothing to kill or die forAnd no religion, too
John Lennon said it best!
Islam as a religion does not preach violence. It is the radical Islam that follows the violence path.
But when Pat Robertson advocates assassinating certain foreign leaders, do you Christians not consider that to be violent? Do Christians consider Pat Robertson and his followers to be radical Christians? If so, then why was he not denounced by fellow Christians at the time he made those ridiculous statements?
I don’t remember the “do as I say and not as I do” being one of the Ten Commandments.
Every religion is screwed up in one way or another. The more someone stanchly professes their faith, you can bet there is an alterior motive….and it usually ain’t good.
Ah, “too much religion”. An interesting subject choice on Sunday morning. I would first take the question out of the context of Islamic radicalism and talk about that with which I am familiar; Christianity.
If by religion, we mean the rules and regulations established by men that judge you by your compliance then yes, you can have too much religion.
Otherwise, I struggle with conforming with the life that my Lord and Savior expects me to lead. In cases where I fail as well as in cases I succeed, I realize and experience the wisdom of the truths the Master taught. So, in my life, too much focus on the world and too little focus on the spiritual is more the problem.
I will just say this since everybody here knows how I feel about religious nutcases. I attend service about every Saturday. I give both time and money to the church we attend and my daughter is in the youth choir. I cannot even begin to tell as to how much I believe in and love the Lord Jesus Christ and how much I feel his love for me everyday. I thank him everyday I rise and every night I go to sleep. BUT as much as I love him and as much as He loves me, I will never try to force you to believe as I do nor will I try to force you to behave in a way that my religion dictates. Whether you are a Jew or a Muslim, you are a brother to me and your God is every bit as legit and real as mine is. You keep your God in your heart, your home and your church and I will do likewise. That is the way it should be.
Matt 22:36-4036 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Too bad more of Christianity doesn’t abide by these greatest commandments.
It is amazing to me the things done in the name of “religion”. Like the nation’s best known racist, Al Sharpton this week claiming that Mormons don’t believe in God.
Sad….
Yeah, or Brownback, Huckabee, and Tancredo saying they don’t believe in evolution, even when it’s an unqualified definition of evolution. Heck, just the word was enough for these guys to throw their hands up.
Hopefully that’s a career-limiting stupid thing for each.
The problem is fundamentalism. Islamic, “Christian,” Jewish… any fundamentalism gets carried away with human-made “laws” that attempt to speak for “God.”
As soon as religionists claim to speak for “God,” all negotiation, all hope for tolerance or compromise, every chance for getting along together despite petty differences… die. No fundamentalist will compromise on anything because *they* claim to have *The* “Truth.”
I grew up in a small Kansas town that had one Jewish family. When the grandfather couldn’t get a ride to Kansas City to attend temple, he went to his neighbor’s church; the Episcopalian Church. “It’s all the same God,” he said, “and besides, Jesus was one of our guys!” Would that everyone of faith had that attitude.
Whether you depend on the interpretation of the Pope or Martin Luther or Wesley or Calvin or the Buddha or Darwin or or Madilyn Murray O’Hara as to what exactly “God” is, it’s all the same “God.”
“God” can transcend any human’s belief. That’s His job.
When Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell claimed 9/11 was “‘God’ punishing us for abortion, lesbianism, and homosexuality,” they lost most of us who, regardless of our level of faith, think perhaps that Methodists don’t have the inside track on *The* “Truth” as opposed to, say, the Deciples of Christ who must certainly be doomed to hellfire and brimstone.
About fifteen hundred years into Christianity, there was a schism between Roman Catholics and protestants. We’re about fifteen hundred years into Islam and she Sunis and Shi’ites are replicating that schism.
The genius of the Constitution of the United States is that it specifically and purposefully said “God” isn’t part of the rules. It’s like the rules of baseball. No one says a devout worshiper of Bonzo the Sun God can’t play baseball, but it’s still 90 feet between the bases. No matter how many times you cross yourself in the batter’s box, it’s still three strikes and you’re out; Baptists don’t get four strikes and Muslims aren’t called out after two. It simply doesn’t matter.
I’m pretty tolerant of other people’s religious beliefs. Until they try to impose their theology on others by force of law. Fundamentalists — of any and every religion — demean and defile “God” by claiming to speak for “Him.”
Believe what you want. That all of your sins are forgiven because you believe in an unjust execution of a man/god two thousand years ago, or that you’ll protect your mother’s back from being broken if you don’t step on a crack. Just don’t try to impose your superstitions on the rest of us.
That’s the American way.
Agreed!
Mary Caruso,John Lennon was a fanatical, anti-Christian musician who, in 1966, thought his band was more popular than Christ, and that Christianity would therefore vanish.John Lennon is still dead, and Christianity is still here and will be for all eternity.See Beatles pagehttp://www.beatlesagain.com/bapology.html
“Hundreds of thousands of Turks have rallied in the city of Izmir to protest against any government plans to undermine Turkish secularism.”
The people of Turkey want to keep the government secular, the religious right in this country wants to make America a theocracy.
The Turkish people are right.
Mary Caruso,John Lennon was a fanatical, anti-Christian musician who, in 1966, thought his band was more popular than Christ, and that Christianity would therefore vanish.John Lennon is still dead, and Christianity is still here and will be for all eternity.See Beatles pagehttp://www.beatlesagain.com/bapology.htmlPosted by: parkay | May 13, 2007 at 12:33 PM
Your first sentence is just ignorant, probably willfully so. Is that a Christian attitude?
Lennon is unfortunately dead, but his music will thankfully live on forever. And isn’t it amazing how much his son Julian takes after the old man?——————————————
On 4 March 1966, Lennon was interviewed for the London Evening Standard by his friend Maureen Cleave and made an off-the-cuff remark regarding religion.[114]:
“Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink…. I don’t know what will go first, rock ‘n’ roll or Christianity. We’re more popular than Jesus now. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me.”
[...]
On 11 August 1966, the Beatles held a press conference in Chicago, in order to address the growing furor.[citation needed]:
Lennon: I suppose if I had said television was more popular than Jesus, I would have got away with it, but I just happened to be talking to a journalist friend, and I used the words “Beatles” as a remote thing, not as what I think — as Beatles, as those other Beatles, like other people see us. I just said “they” are having more influence on kids and things than anything else, including Jesus. But I said it in that way, which is the wrong way.Reporter: Some teenagers have repeated your statements — “I like the Beatles more than Jesus Christ.” What do you think about that?Lennon: Well, originally I pointed out that fact in reference to England. That we meant more to kids than Jesus did, or religion at that time. I wasn’t knocking it or putting it down. I was just saying it as a fact, and it’s true more for England than here. I’m not saying that we’re better or greater, or comparing us with Jesus Christ as a person or God as a thing, or whatever it is. I just said what I said and it was wrong. Or it was taken wrong. And now it’s all this.Reporter: But are you prepared to apologise?Lennon: I wasn’t saying whatever they’re saying I was saying. I’m sorry I said it really. I never meant it to be a lousy anti-religious thing. I apologise if that will make you happy. I still don’t know quite what I’ve done. I’ve tried to tell you what I did do, but if you want me to apologise, if that will make you happy, then OK, I’m sorry.The Vatican accepted his apology, but the Southern Baptist Convention (the predominant religion in the U.S. Bible Belt) did not.[116] Lennon wrote later, “I always remember to thank Jesus for the end of my touring days; if I hadn’t said that the Beatles were ‘bigger than Jesus’ and upset the very Christian Ku Klux Klan, well, Lord, I might still be up there with all the other performing fleas! God bless America. Thank you, Jesus.”"[117]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_lennon#Christianity
Nobody ever killed anybody in the name of John Lennon.
Well I will say this- both Lennon and Lenin were wrong about Jesus. If the Beatles were around today and came here to do shows at our huge Georgia Dome, they could sell out the dome probably for 2 or 3 weeks straight. If they did free shows maybe 6 months of a show every night. If Jesus came to the Georgia dome, it would fill up everyday for the next 1000 years probably. While Jesus was unpopular in life, which he did not care about, he is very popular now and more so than any existing human being on Earth. I like the Beatles as much as anybody but they, like many entertainers, need to know when to “shut up and sing”.
That’s just it Jesus isn’t doing any shows right now. And if he was alive now he probably would be killed off by the same religious forces that killed him the first time.
I believe that too much religion makes people stupid. At one time the Arab world were brilliant scholars, scientist’s, they gave us Algebra, the concept of zero, then Islam took hold in the 7th 8th century, and they lost all that and haven’t progressed much since. When the Christian church was the ruling force in Europe is called the “Dark Ages” Scientific progress blocked by religion, whether its Gravity, Evolution, Medicine. You can respect other people’s beliefs all you want but Christian Scientists, Amish so on aren’t going to find a cure for Cancer or develop a new source of energy.
The more a person tells me they are a Christian, the more I distance myself from that person. Did Jesus go around and constantly tell everyone how he was such a good Christian? No, he ministered to the thieves, lepers and other outcasts of society through his compassion and unconditional love.
Unfortunately, today’s so-called Evangelical Christians seem to be the ones that yell the loudest about how great they are. And these same hypocrits are building huge monuments for all the world to see (and tax-free by the way).
with all due respect Kev, Jesus does not need to bother filling up the Georgia Dome for the next 1000 years.
And in using this analogy, isn’t this what turns people off on religion? It is almost like you are trying to make Jesus the next rock star and if you truly believe your religious beliefs, Jesus is much more that label.
Alright…
The problem, once again, has nothing to do with too much religion.
*Almost* every example given here for why too much religion is bad has nothing to do with religion.
It has everything to do with power.
Those in power, wanted to keep their power and/or obtain more.
These horrible things done in the name of religion are perportrated by evil men.
The same thing can happen in the absense of religion too. Lenin, Marx, Stalin… Communism anyone?
Nathan raises an excellent point. The issue is less about a person’s faith than it is about expressing that faith as dogma, and attempting to impose that dogma on others.
As Nathan points out, Communism, like radical Islam, or radical Christianity, is just another tool readily available to those who wish to control and have power over others.
So is restricting a woman’s right to do with her body also a power issue then Nathan?
Don’t tell me it’s a human rights issue, because we’ve already proven that in the places where human rights are the worst is where women’s reproductive freedoms are limited the most.
political_mom,
“So is restricting a woman’s right to do with her body also a power issue then Nathan?”
What are you trying to talk about? Abortion?
Abortion has nothing to do with a womans right or her body or power.
Well, mayber power, it is about a powerless unborn child whom is being killed by it’s mother with no one protecting it.
“Don’t tell me it’s a human rights issue, because we’ve already proven that in the places where human rights are the worst is where women’s reproductive freedoms are limited the most.”
I didn’t say one thing about human rights.
I hardly believe that any CAUSAL link has been proven between what you call “reproductive freedoms” and human rights.
I hope you know what a Causal link is…
You are correct with that point, P Mom. Saudi Arabia is one of the more religious countries in the world. Women there are not allowed to drive, cannot vote, cannot be in public without a male relative, cannot divorce without their husband’s permission and raped women are given lashes because they should have been at home.
A clump of undifferentiated cells is not a “child,” born or unborn.
This is the problem with dogma. It makes declarative statements that are divorced from fact, and yet are presented as unassailable.
Tom,
It has nothing to do with dogma. Not every person who is against abortion is basing it off of their religion.
Actually, there is nothing in the Christian faith or the Bible which specifically says you can’t have an abortion.
However, what I and many others do is logically conlclude that what is inside the mother is not just a clump of cells, but a child growing.
Since you want to talk about “fact” then please enlighten us as to when life begins for a human according to science?
What is the magical day that it is no longer a clump of cells, but a human life worthy of protecting?
Nathan,
The United States Constitution declares a “person” is someone who is born. From the 14th Amendment:
“1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Various courts have ruled that fetuses that are viable outside the womb are entitled limited protections prior to birth.
I’m comfortable with what the Constitution says, and with the consensus courts have reached.
If, in the Christian mind, abortion is immoral because that “clump of cells” is a preborn human being wouldn’t, by extension, contraception also be immoral? After all a egg cell is just a sperm cell away from being a human being. For that matter, masturbation should be considered immoral also, since a sperm cell is just looking for an egg to make a baby.
I am not joking here – if abortion is immoral shouldn’t all forms of contraception also be immoral? Further, shouldn’t any sex that doesn’t lead to procreation also be immoral?
WS,
You’ve hit Catholic dogma regarding contraception and masturbation right in the bullseye.
WSClark makes the masturbation argument often. I’m beginning to wonder if he practices often.
What is that they say about masturbation – 90% of the population admits to masturbation – the other 10% is lying?
Which are you, Republican, a ten percenter?
Republican,
We’ve been having a nice, no-personal-attack chat today across every thread active. Why are you going to make this personal? Why make snarky comments about another blogger’s personal life?
Tom, Republican has a weird facination with my sex life. I can’t imagine why, but it kind of creeps me out.
Before you good christians get too upset by “Islamic terrorism,” and feeling oh-so-superior, you might do well to look at your own history. In terms of terrorism and genocide, christianity makes Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot look like pikers.From literally the moment christianity gained political power, christians have been busy killing each other and anyone else they could get their hands on in the name of religion. If you doubt that, find me one span of 17 years, a mere 1 percent of that time, when christians weren’t involved in persecutions, wars, genocide or outright theft of land or property from nonchristians or christians of a different stripe, with religion being the reason or the excuse, from the time of Constantine to the present day.Then you need to decide whether to continue your historical course of bringing hell to earth, or changing the direction of christianity toward a humane, tolerant, more Christlike religion, if you will.Until then, don’t complain about the violence of other religions.
Nothing is lower than doing evil but trying to cloak it in some religious cause. I often wonder why God does not reach down from the Heavens and smack some of these self-righteous, sanctimonius Evangelical Christians right in their faces.
God and Christianity gets a black eye from the actions of a few deluded few hungering for power and the feeling of superiority.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E found this interesting
No one ever killed anyone in the name of John Lennon, but someone killed John Lennon in the name of fame. :)
Cat,”God and Christianity gets a black eye from the actions of a few deluded few hungering for power and the feeling of superiority.”
Yes, a few may have begun it, but they have infected millions, for centuries with such poison. I often wonder what it is in religion that makes it’s believers so vulnerable to manipulation by hatemongers. It saddens me to no end that so many otherwise good people have learned the dogma of hatred and murder.
I was trying to cut you off Nathan before you tried to use that response.
But no, please explain what your view is..if it’s not about power…your power to control what others do with their bodies.
And it aint about the babies cause you aren’t the ones raising them either.
Speaking of Catholicism, I once heard from someone who dealt with some Catholic theologians, that abortion is not the all mortal sin that we think they feel it is. That birth control IS however the mortal sin. You’re preventing a soul from being formed. Those who find themselves having an abortion can be forgiven by doing pentance by advocating for the end of others having abortions. But at least that soul is in heaven.
Nathan,”Since you want to talk about “fact” then please enlighten us as to when life begins for a human according to science?”
Actually, science doesn’t address the issue of when life begins, or if it begins at all or is simply a continuation of the parents’ life, or any of a number of other possibilities. That’s a question for philosophers, and they don’t agree on much of anything.
Life begins when a person either pays taxes or becomes a tax deduction.
Doug,That can’t be right, because they still collect taxes after you’re dead!
What do you mean that science doesn’t address the issue of when life begins? That doesn’t even make any sense. Science has discovered that plus every other aspect of fetal and human development. Why do those who are so stanchly pro choice determined to spin abortion in a way other that what it is?I guess that’s what drives me nuts, all the pro choice propaganda to make it seem so benign.JUST TELL THE TRUTH.
At least then I could respect you.
Mary,Okay, can we agree that both egg and sperm cell are alive BEFORE conception? And after fusing are STILL alive?Exactly where is a BEGINNING in all this? Couldn’t it all be simply a continuation of the same cell processes? Some scientists have theorized that sexual reproduction began as a means for a cell to rid itself of parasites that would transfer in simple mitosis.Some cellular biologists are presenting evidence that what we call an individual is better described as colony organism consisting of ten trillion or so individual lives. Are each of those lives to be held sacred?DNA can be extracted from a bone hundreds of years old, and when placed in a cell from which the nucleus has been extracted, becomes active. So, did that bone die? When?These may seem like meaningless questions to you, but they are vital to the determination of when, or even if life begins, and have implications far beyond any pro or anti-choice beliefs. Until they can be answered, the question of when life begins remains unanswered.The argument that life begins at conception is deeply rooted in the idea that a soul is somehow infused in the cell at that moment. This is an entirely theological concept, which has been argued bitterly over for the last 2,000 years, with some theologians opting for conception, while others claim quickening, or the soul being inspired with the first breath, and a few holding out for a gradual infusion over the first year or so after birth. Science, having so far been unable to definitively locate a soul, and requiring observable evidence before reaching a conclusion, cannot begin to answer that question.
Human life begins at conception when the sperm infiltrates the ovum and a human will be produced unless it’s interrupted. A sperm left on its own will just remain a sperm, an ovum left on it own will just be an ovum. Plants are alive, cells are alive, but a human life exists once conception occurs.You can use all the rethoric you want..but the truth is that a fertilized ovum that implants into the uterine wall will produce a human being unless it’s destroyed by natural or unnatural occurances.Yes, sometimes it’s necessary to stop a human from developing, that’s what abortion is, preventing an established human life from reaching it’s full potential. Trying to diminish that fact is just not being honest in an effort to deny and not to feel guilty about what abortion is.You can believe in abortion…but at least be honest about what it is.
“Human life begins at conception when the sperm infiltrates the ovum”
So what fate shall befall the fertility clinics that create hundreds of fertilized human eggs in an attempt to impregnate a woman?
You must view in vitro fertilization as the most abominable of practices because of the number of fertilized human ‘babies’ that are created then thrown away.
A couple more things:There is nothing biologically different about a fertilized egg in a petri dish than one on a uterus.
If a woman does not get enough vitamins and that leads to miscarriage, is that an abortion? Should the woman be punished for causing it to happen?
Mary,Would that life were so simple! You’re talking about the most complex process of the arguably most complex system in the universe, and insist on reducing it to simple dogma? Sorry, but that argument wouldn’t have flown with the knowledge available 100 years ago, let alone today. You’re still arguing from a religious viewpoint, not scientific.
Facts are facts, Jed…no amount of spin will ever change that.It doesn’t matter what I “think”, that doesn’t change the truth.You’re the one with your head in the sand, my dear.
“If a woman does not get enough vitamins and that leads to miscarriage, is that an abortion? Should the woman be punished for causing it to happen?”Another example of your emotional and extreme “all or nothing” type of debate…if you feed your kids McDonald’s everyday and they get fat and develop diabetes…should YOU be punished for that?
Mary,Gee, it must be nice to live in a world where facts are facts and truth is absolute. Unfortunately, many, if not most of the “facts” your mother and grandmother thought were immutable are now residing in the trash can. If you wish to hold them sacred, go ahead, nobody’s stopping you! Problems arise though when those “facts” become enshrined in law.If we assume, as you say, that life begins at conception, we confer, as we are now doing, legal personhood on a zygote. Ten years or so from now, it will very likely be possible to relatively easily transform any cell into one that is scientifically indistinguishable from a zygote. Remember that, having conferred legal status to zygotes, lawyers and courts will be involved. If you refuse, then, to allow the cells you normally shed to be collected and so cultured, a court might then find you guilty of murder, each one being a potential person and count. If you do allow it, then who is held responsible to raise and support said 10,000 or so children daily you are now mother to? You? The state? That’s a lot of diapers!If you think that’s an absurd supposition, look at the legal morass now surrounding surrogate mothers and custody of frozen embryos. Lawyers will end up owning the world! I think I’ll send my grandkids to law school.
You think in extremes, Jed…the real world doesn’t work that way.No matter how much science may change one thing will stay the same…we all get into the world the same way.I love life, I’m glad my mother didn’t abort me..in your view she would have had every reason to. Maybe I’m too empathic, but I believe it’s wrong to deny someone else their chance at life for selfish reasons. Sorry you see it differently.
Mary,”No matter how much science may change one thing will stay the same…we all get into the world the same way.”
Mary, Mary, we don’t now! 50 years ago, the idea of pregnancy without sex was laughable. Artificial insemination happened. 25 years ago, the idea of conception occurring outside the womb was absurd. In Vitro happened. 15 years ago the thought of single parent reproduction was ridiculous. Cloning happened. At the rate discoveries are progressing, it won’t be that many years before we’re assembling new people and animals from basic amino acids! A bad thing? Like most anything else, it depends on how it’s used.Unfortunately, for many complex reasons, law cannot keep up with technology; look at the legal mess surrounding the internet. By the time they get that sorted out, billions will be won and lost in lawsuits and criminal prosecutions, the internet laws will be obsolete all over again, and a lot of lawyers will be very rich. All I’m saying is that we need to be very careful when it comes to passing laws. It is so easy to say “we need a law,” and pass some legislation that will create horrific tragedies when something unforeseen happens. History is full of examples (remember Baby Jessica?), and unforeseen things happen all the time! We grant legal personhood to a zygote and we are likely setting a whole lot of real people up for a terrible fall, and definitely making an incredible amount of money for a whole lot of lawyers. Are you ready for that responsibility?
Excuse me, wrong baby- Baby M.
We still get here the same way, Jed..even if we start out in a petrie dish…do you realize how hard it is just to be born? Do you honestly believe that every zygote develops into a human being? In invitro, do you have any idea how many jygotes are created just to get one to take and make a baby?..or how many jygotes a woman sheds naturally…the fact that you’re here on this earth means that you’ve surpassed inumerable odds…it IS like winning the lottery just to be born.We shouldn’t take this incredible chance to exist for granted, why would you deny it to someone else?I guess it’s easy when you convince yourself that preborn human have no life or value…something I can’t do. To rip away someone’s chance to exist after they have started to develop into a human being is just so selfish and cruel..I don’t care about this law or that law and how it may or may not affect our “right” to kill those who have no voice..what I care about a person’s chance to exist in this world..a right that shouldn’t be denied or taken for granted.Life is precious, it shouldn’t be devalued or denied, maybe sometimes it’s necessary, but that still doesn’t make it right.
Mary,You have tunnel vision here; you are focused only on the baby. You also have to take into account the support structure or lack thereof, that will bring that baby to adulthood.You know, and I know that there are many couples out there that have no business whatsoever having children. You probably see them every day. And there is no way we’re going to cram them all into monasteries and convents.There are others, many others who can make it with two kids, but three are just too heavy a drain on available resources.For all these people we have various methods of birth control, but even when used properly, none are 100% effective. But women forget to take their pills, or can’t afford them in the first place. Men improperly apply condoms in the heat of whatever heat they’re in or dispense with them entirely because they’re uncomfortable, and before you know it, someone’s preggers!Now we have a child being raised by crack-head parents, by children too young to know how, by couples too stressed to care, by an abusive parent who blames the child for using up the available money. What happens is usually nothing at all. In a few of the most egregious cases, the child is removed from the family and placed in a foster home where abuse is replaced by uncertainty, probably until the child ages out and is dumped on the street with next to nothing and nobody to turn to. This is the best case scenario. It can get worse. A lot worse! We’re left with a fairly damaged percentage of a generation of kids, whose only hope for success is now down to crime or PowerBall. Many end up homeless, or whose home address is a county jail or an institution with Nurse Ratchet.Okay, for the moment we’ll assume your contention that that zygote is a person, and abortion causes it’s death. I’ve been around long enough to know that there are many things in this world worse than death, and that many of these kids will find them. Others will simply find death in gangs or drugs. Maybe a few will make it out of the abyss, but is their success worth the suffering of all those others? You say life is precious, but isn’t precious reserved for things that are rare? That’s hardly the case here.This seems building towards a case for enforced euthanasia, but I must stop short of that. I believe a woman is in a better position to know her life and circumstances than a bureaucracy or a church. She is the primary person whose life is affected by a pregnancy and a life of raising the kid, and she is the one who must make that final decision of whether to keep a child or abort it. She may be presented with the facts and options (not propaganda), but in the end, it must be her decision to make, and our responsibility to support her and help her implement whatever decision she makes!
Jed, I don’t think I have “tunnel visio” and yes, I agree and accept the fact that some things are worse than abortion. I know really dysfunctional people, drug addicted people, mentally ill people, who should never reproduce or raise children. I have friends who aborted because their baby was going to be born with severe birth defects. I would nevercondemn or expect a woman to carry a pregnacy to term if she was raped or it was a threat to her life. What I can’t accept is the ideology or belief that human life doesn’t exist in the womb..it does. Abortion is the termination of a human life..and it shouldn’t be viewed as if someone is just having a tooth pulled. You say I’m only focused on the baby, but you only focus on the mother..there IS another life involved here, whether you’re willing to admit it or not. Yes, there are times when it may be a better alternative to abort the baby..but to do it for selfish reasons is wrong. To deny someone’s life because they’re inconvenient or the timing is off is just wrong, and that’s the circumstances of most abortions, but those on your side always use the extreme examples to justify the killing of innocents for any reason whatsoever. And yes, abortion will always be legal, because it has to be and because too many people think the way you do…but that doesn’t make it right. The taking of a human life should be taken more seriously than it is in our society…and to deny the humanity of a child developing in the womb just allows our society to put blinders on and not see aborton for what it is… the taking of an innocent human life.I feel this way about any issue where innocent human life is destroyed..abortion, war, genocide, etc, it’s all wrong and unfortunately, a big aspect of man’s imperfection and selfishness.
I think it’s interesting the way you and I debate this subject, because I have the impression that you consider yourself a Christian..and I’m not. You would think our stand on this issue would be just the opposite of what it is.I appreciate the fact that you and I CAN have a rationale debate, even though we disagree, I respect your right to believe the way you do, because your intentions are good, even if you are wrong.
Sorry for the spelling errors, I really need to “preview” before I post!!
Mary,I’ve seen a lot of women walk through the doors of clinics, and I don’t think any of them take it as lightly as that. Sure, you’ll find an occasional idiot, but I have faith in the vast majority of women to know what they’re doing.The point I was making was that for nearly all kids, mom is the only support structure they have. Destroy that support structure and the child is destroyed. One of the first things I learned about being a care-giver is that the most important person to take care of is the care-giver. If you ruin yourself, you also ruin the person you’re caring for! Therefore, if a whole child is necessary, I place the emphasis on the mother.By the way, I am not and have never been christian.
Who
Catholic ProtestantMuslim and JewsLook at each otherWith frightening viewsWhat are we doingThis isn’t God’s planWe are meant to be brothersOur family of manThere seems to be somethingThat gets in the wayConfusing ours mindsFrom what his words sayLove one anotherThe gist of his bookNo matter the languageNor how it may lookI’ve missed somethingI don’t understandWHO is it thenIf it isn’t God’s handWho darkens dreamsWith hatred and fearClouding our visionTill nothing is clearSharpens our rageAt the point of a knifeWho sends the misguidedTo cause loss of lifeWho wants the worldTo tremble and shakeWho takes innocentLives in his wakeWho breaks a spiritThen fills it with hateDemonic decisionsSealing their fateWho takes a manAnd warps his soulDeath and destructionHis devious goalWho turns souls blackWith power or greedWho preaches hatePlanting the seedFor the slaughter of othersBut who do we blameThe ultimate evilIt’s done in God’s name
mr_alleycat
I agree … like have a booming loud rock concert at the Native American Center and keeping everyone up until 12 a.m. The people came to Jesus …. I’m not sure why it was thought the unexpecting people.
needed Jesus blasted to them.