President Bush said that pulling out of Iraq “could unleash chaos in Iraq that could spread across the entire region. It would be an invitation to the enemy to attack America and our friends around the world.” But some of his senior aides think that such doomsday predictions are exaggerated, Newsweek reported. They say that the likelihood of a regional war is low, and they note that Osama bin Laden already has a safe haven in Pakistan for planning attacks.
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95 Comments
Sometimes it is better to let the enemy win the battle so that you can win the war.
There would be a game of “catch up” I feel as to how far it would go is a guess. I would suspect that the civil war would turn into a proxies war for Iran and Saudi Arabia. Or maybe not, with us gone Iran may lose interest and set back. Since most of the problems for the U.S. is the insurgency in Iraq and not Al-Qaeda. And most of the problems for the Iraqis is Al-Qaeda and not the U.S. It could be a win-win if we did pull out. The insurgency would turn their attention to Al-Qaeda and there would be less opportunities to kill Americans. Of course with us out to, why would Al-Qaeda want to stay? Al-Qaeda is Sunni and the majority of Iraq are Shiite. The recent good news that even the Sunni are turning on Al-Qaeda might make them look to greener pastures.
Another way to look at it, true freedom comes in many forms one would be to have a civil war! If I was a betting man I would put my money on the Shiites. Perhaps a compromise is in order, pull our troops back into the Kurdish region. The Kurds I hear love us, maybe more then we love ourselves at this point. Keeping Turkey from invading is the only real reason to stay. As long as we are there The Turks are not as likely to invaded.
The architects of the new Iraq are going to be the Iraqi people themselves. Our attempts to impose “democracy” on them while blowing them to kingdom come illustrates very clearly that our current administration has no idea at all what our Founding Fathers were talking about and fighting for!SELF DETERMINATION, not Brownnose, Biden, Halliburton and Bush determination, are the key words were looking for here.We have a history of installing and supporting dictators because dictators are quick to grasp which side of their bread is buttered (Saddam was one of those, see). Unfortunately, their excesses breed revolutionaries, just like King George’s did, and they have differing concepts about the application of butter, or in this case, oil.Our role in this fiasco is over. It’s up to the people of Iraq to now design and construct a state of their own making. The best we can do is offer them advice on avoiding numbskulls in positions of power who want to bomb people and things. Then get our culturally ignorant asses out of their country!
The architects of the new Iraq are going to be the Iraqi people themselves. Our attempts to impose “democracy” on them while blowing them to kingdom come illustrates very clearly that our current administration has no idea at all what our Founding Fathers were talking about and fighting for!SELF DETERMINATION, not Brownnose, Biden, Halliburton and Bush determination, are the key words were looking for here.We have a history of installing and supporting dictators because dictators are quick to grasp which side of their bread is buttered (Saddam was one of those, see). Unfortunately, their excesses breed revolutionaries, just like King George’s did, and they have differing concepts about the application of butter, or in this case, oil.Our role in this fiasco is over. It’s up to the people of Iraq to now design and construct a state of their own making. The best we can do is offer them advice on avoiding numbskulls in positions of power who want to bomb people and things. Then get our culturally ignorant asses out of their country!
Sorry about the dreaded double post.
Of course there’s going to be chaos. That’s what happens after violent “regime change.” We certainly had chaos following our disagreement of gunfire with the British colonialists; where do you think all them Canadians came from?The Iraqis will get it sorted out, but it very well may not be the ally state we expected when we undertook our ill-advised little excursion there.
The primary threat isn’t a war – it’s that Iran will carve out a sphere of influence for itself that encompasses the whole of Iraq. As wretched a man as Hussein was, one good thing we can say about him is that he kept Iran firmly in check…
Stopping Israel from killing Arabs and stealing their land is what is in the best interests of the United States.
That would stop 3-dollar gas caused by the Jews raising hell in the Middle East and normalize relationships with the United States and the Arab world.
A Palestinian State at the green-line would be the icing on the cake for peace in the Middle East.
Financing the Zionist’s greed brings us nothing besides death and destruction and will eventually bring down the United States, sooner rather than later.
“Spin” nor “chicken little” won’t change that.
“O God, our Heavenly Father, we remember before Thee this day,those who laid down their lives in the service of their country.We remember their courage and devotion to the Sovereign and the country they served.We pray that their labours be not in vain but that their spirit may live on in us and the generations to come.We pray that liberty, truth and love may spread over all the world ’til war shall cease to be.We remember our brethren who are in sickness or distress.We remember the widows and other dependants.We dedicate ourselves to Thy service in the name of those whose memory we revere.We ask this in the name of our Lord.” “Amen”
“But some of his senior aides think that such doomsday predictions are exaggerated,”
Looks like it is time for Bush to fire some more of his senior aides.
New book out by Colonel Hunt on the Iraq War and its implication. Not sure if its available but going to try and get it.
Always like that guy, he reminds me of a cross between Jimmy Cagney (Yankee Doodle Dandy) and George C. Scott (Patton.)
Will be interesting to read what he has to say what happens when we pull out.
Remember the domino effect theory kennedy/johnson/etc. used to justify our idiocy in Vietnam?
This sounds a lot like it.
And what else is interesting is Bushco is starting to talk about, well, maybe it wouldn’t be so bad over there if we pulled out, maybe we should let those folks figure it out on their own, etc., etc. I suggest they are laying the groundwork for a pullout.
Or am I just whistling in the wind?
There was a brief report on NPR today that the sheiks of the Sunni insurgents were turning away from Al Qeada, because the latter group was trying to muscle in on their oil stealing/diversion racket. In one province, Sunnis joining the police force had dramatically increased.
The story made me think of organized crime more than a state sponsored army. It will be years and years before will get out of Iraq if the goal is a stable country. We have spent $21 billion on reconstruction projects that the Iraqis neither have the electrical power nor expertise to maintain. Talk about throwing money down a rat hole.
Mission accomplished.
Another tinpot dictator will rise from the ashes and run the country just like it has been for the last 2000 years. What we did was kill one, and open the door for another. Shakespeare is rolling over in his grave.
Democrats need to get a new slogan other than “Mission Accomplished.” They rant about it like a bunch of school boys.
Guess it’s the lack of substance the whole party has with the exception of a very few.
One thing for sure, the cheese eating surrender monkeys in the Liberal Left will never be able to say that. They will always be to busy raising the white flag and doing the surrender wave similar to those in football stadiums.
Nonsense
Nice generalization Republican. Would be like me saying all GOP supporters are lying, war monging, cheating, decitful, whore loving, child touchers. Since we are painting with a large brush, there you go.
Oh I forgot. Jesus freaks.
Then tell your fellow Democrats Mike, to stop repeating that phrase. It serves no purposes other than to inflame and insult the military. I don’t care who puts up the banner, it was meant as a morale boost for the troops for a job well done on the invasion Combat phase.
It’s repeated by the unpatriotic left quite often.
Wrong Republican. There is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about pointing out how Bush exploits the military for partisan political gain.
No Ben, your WRONG and you constantly display your hippy background and decision making on matters of common sense and national defense of the country.
You figure a few slogans and some name-calling is all that is called for in politics. No substance, empty pallet. No plan – nothing but fluff.
Republican and BenHere is a motto:
“We f*cked up the country, please send intelligent person to pick up the pieces”SignedGW
When the Russians pulled out of Afghanistan, and left the country in limbo, it was over-taken by a bunch of Warlords and the Taliban. They then gave a safe haven for Al-Qaeda to train and plan attacks against the western civilization. There is no way that the Iraqi Army, as it stands right now, can possibly defend it’s self from the onslaught from Islamic fundamentalist that will surely befall them. It would be party time in Iraq for Al- Qaeda, and every other terrorist group with a bone to pick against the US and it’s allies. We must stay put until there is an Army sufficient enough to defend it’s self.
What a joke Rep. How is an MBA from Newman a ‘hippy background’? YOUR response displays your Rush Oxycontin background.
“You figure a few slogans and some name-calling is all that is called for in politics. No substance, empty pallet. No plan – nothing but fluff.” – fits you well.
While I don’t pretend to have an answer, I think the whole question of how and when to leave Iraq needs some serious discussion. i believe that Al Queada and it’s sympathizers are simply biding their time. I believe that when we leave, their will be a wholesale massacre in Iraq of those who stand in opposiiton. I believe that Iran and others will fill the vacuum left behind when the US leaves, regardless of when that is. I also believe that once the United States has shown it’s “weakness” to our enemies, they will once again attack the US on it’s own soil. I think that there are lots of Al Queada that would do so now, but the more senior leaders recognize that they are winning the PR war, and can afford to bide their time. they could care less how many of their own are killed, they only care about the outcome. Likewise, though it is a strength and not a weakness, the US does care about how many of their own die. I have beleived that there would not be an attack on uS for some time. Not only because of better surveillance, but even martyrs know when to lay low and et the enemy defeat himself. When we are gone from the middle east, when they consolidate their power, theywill come for us. to do so now would reinvigorate and add to the number of those who wish to pursue the war over there.Sooner or later we must leave Iraq. Maybe sooner is better than leter, but we need to do so intelligently
Hurts – and how many decades will THAT take? Seems to me that Saddam, despot that he was, DID keep alQuada out.
Just one more thing Republican. Is combat operations over in Iraq? I understand and to some degree agree with your post regarding the “Mission Accomplished” banner. However, lets not get caught in the emotion of that message. Let’s look at reality(and for some GOP that is difficult). The war is lost! Our troops are dying for a diplomatic cause. And because we do not have any diplomats in Washington they are dying for a lost cause. Let the Iraqis sort out their problems. Pulling the troops back to the north or back to Kuwait would be: 1. A change in strategy. 2. Would show that we are serious about a non-open ended commitment. 3. Give the administration some way to save face given the current situation.
“fill the vacuum left behind when the US leaves” And who created that vacuum?
At first glance,the US. No denying it. however, further thought would be that Saddam, with his ruthlessness, created a vacuum within his own country. Pointing fingers and saying “YOUR fault” may feel good and even be good for elections, it still does nothing to solve the crisis. Coming up with realistic solutions does.
“There is absolutely nothing unpatriotic about pointing out how Bush exploits the military for partisan political gain.”
Ben: Regarding the above, would you please explain how staying in Iraq is “partisan political gain”?
It would seem to me that staying in Iraq is, and has for some time, been a negative politically. It would seem to follow then that something else motivates the president. I think he truly believes that the course he is pursuing is in the best longterm interest of the country. Without a crystal ball, no one can know.
Valid point lj – and I definitely agree that Saddam did a ‘good job’ of decimating any alternative leadership that might have been able to step in. However, that does not excuse the decisions to both decapitate the regime and to also purge all of the rank-and-file cops and soldiers as Bush ordered.
I agree that we need to come up with realistic solutions. However the first step is acknowledging the mess and how it came about. What was it Bush called the Baker report? That turd? or words to that effect? Well, that attitude sure as hell ain’t conducive to finding realistic solutions.
Bush created the mess. Bush is now perpetuating the mess. Step ONE to finding a way out of the mess is to fine realistic leadership. We don’t have that today in Bush.
out – I was referring to the MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner, his cute flightsuit, etc.
Blunt assessment of Senator Hagel upon his return from his fifth visit to Iraq. His comments about leaving creating chaos may be paraphrased as “what do you think is going on now?”. He is not for a sudden, full withdrawal of all forces from Iraq, rather he wants U.S. forces out of Baghdad, with some troop reductions, He’s also critical of the lack of diplomacy in the region.
A good read.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/04/hagel_on_iraq.html
I agree Littlejohn that the vacuum left is the responsiblity of the US. However, Saddam did keep the country in tact and kept the religious sects in check. We did not have a post Saddam plan and thus reaped the whirlwind when he was taken out of power. This is why war should always be a last resort tactic. War should be waged when there is a cohesive decision made of an imminent threat, with the world’s approval. Thus bringing in more forces to shoulder the burden and more opinions to reconstruction etc.. The unilateral decision(and thats what it was) to go to war never works. I do agree that pointing fingers and name calling is only good for politics and nothing more. But we must learn from this and keep this in mind as we move forward. Not recognizing history and not taking history into account causes problems such as the one we face in Iraq.
“fill the vacuum left behind when the US leaves” And who created that vacuum?
Uh I dunno maybe A MURDERER NAMED SADDAM!!
Oh yes and as for your question about how long it will take to adequately develop a military capable of defending it’s self. I think a year from now, it would look a lot better than it does now.
“He deplored the Bush administration’s failure to craft a coherent Middle East policy, blaming the influence of Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams.”
Well said Senator Hagel.
Outlander,
Only one thing scarier than Bush alone. Bush with a crystal ball. Imagine that! Let’s not give the “DECIDER” any new ways to predict the future.
“I think a year from now, it would look a lot better than it does now.”
I heard that a year ago. Two years ago. Three years ago …
outlander,
By staying in Iraq, Bush avoids having to admit he was wrong to invade in the first place.
Then, when whoever succeeds Bush in the White House does the rational thing and gets us the hell out of there, Bush and the coterie who supported him (Neocons and the like) can lay blame for having “lost” Iraq, and for being the politicians who “tied the hands of the generals.”
It’ll be the post-Vietnam aftermath, all over again: wash, spin, repeat. We’ve been hearing this crap for thirty years; what’s another thirty?
Truth,There are alot of dictators that murder. We are not in the business of ridding the world of dictatorships??? Are we??
If so, then pack your bags we are only 3 years to late to go to Sudan. That regime has killed way more than Saddam ever thought about.
Truth Hurts,
Please. The Administration appears to have given up precisely the rationale that you’re defending, the whole “as they stand up, we stand down” spin.
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17104704.htm
Things aren’t getting better. Staying won’t make them better. We’re FOUR YEARS IN. The American public has had it with being lied to, again and again, by the drunken airman in the White House.
“fill the vacuum left behind when the US leaves” And who created that vacuum?
Uh I dunno maybe A MURDERER NAMED SADDAM!!Posted by: Truth Hurts | April 30, 2007 at 12:32 PM
Dunno about “truth,” but obviously thinking must cause you some significant level of pain.
Here’s the question nobody’s got to yet:
Before March 2003, was Iraq a mess because of Hussein, or was Hussein a brutal dictator because that’s what it takes to govern the tribes of Iraq given arbitrary British colonial boundaries?
It’s a very important question the answer to which is unknown even today. Ask the trial lawyers about this old legal saw: never in a courtroom ask a question you don’t know the answer to. Seems to me that Augustus Stupidus should have made it his duty to know the answer prior to March 2003.
Mike your right. We should have left him alon. Heck we only found 400,000 buried in graves the first two days of occupation. We should have left another dictator alone as well. His name was Adolph.
Cftk I never said things were getting better, even though they are. I said their military will be stronger, which it will.
Mike your right. We should have left him alone. Heck we only found 400,000 buried in graves the first two days of occupation. We should have left another dictator alone as well. His name was Adolph.
Cftk I never said things were getting better, even though they are. I said their military will be stronger, which it will.
TruthThen we need to get to Sudan with the quickness. Over 1,000,000 murdered and another 1,000,000 displaced. And I am pretty sure we have killed 100,000 Iraqis as well so give yourself creditSaddam 400,000 over 25 yearsUS 100,000 in 4 yearsIf we can keep this pace up we will take Saddam’s name off the high score and put Bushes up there instead.
“Seems to me that Augustus Stupidus should have made it his duty to know the answer prior to March 2003.”
He did so because he had no idea what he was getting into. His so-called “intelligence” reports had it all wrong, his advisers had it all wrong, and to this day, he has it all wrong.
He has no exit strategy because he still has no understanding of the religious conflicts that have devastated the area for over 2000 years. And he never will. We will, as Americans, be cleaning up this mess he has left for the next generation, if not longer.
Americans were both lazy and fooled by this incompetent president. He has no business being the president of this country. He is mentally incompetent.
Sorry about the duplicate
And your comparison of Saddam to Adolph is a stretch and you know it. Let’s stay in our shoes, shall we? Saddam had not invaded 75% of Europe with global domination plans. He was a bad guy that lived in a bad neighborhood. Can’t really say I blame the guy for not coming out and announcing to the world that “We have no way to protect ourselves”. Especially, considering the neighborhood he lived in. I wouldn’t ask you to announce to all your neighbors that you are going out of town and your house is unlocked. That may give your neighbors the idea of robbing you. Same premise.
Ah the political left and their “microwave popcorn” non-solutions. The slogan is “we can’t figure out what to do – so we’ll just whine.”
Most people know where my Website is Pedant – It shows Clinton(both of them) Stupidus, Senator Reid Stupidus, Senator Edwards Stupidus, Madeline Albright Stupidus and many other democrats on video for the world to see acknowledging the reasons for going to War with Iraq.
When the going gets tough, the Left runs away and hide, go into denial they ever said those things and generally raise the cheese-eating surrender flag of flaccid no-plan diplomacy.
It takes a long time to turn a country of that size and population around. It doesn’t help when the Left tears up the wager ticket before the race is even finished.
Mike I give. I don’t agree but I’m tired of arguing, and wish that everyone could just party and get along……it will never happen but it never hurts to fantasize.
When the going gets tough, the Left runs away and hide, go into denial they ever said those things and generally raise the cheese-eating surrender flag of flaccid no-plan diplomacy.Posted by: Republican | April 30, 2007 at 01:00 PM
Or we can leave our future to the GOP. Just think about the fun we get to look forward to:
No Constitutional Rights except the Right to Bear Arms.Low taxes for the top 1% wage earners.No more abortion.No social programs what so ever.Civil War in the US between the social classes.No seperation between church and state(oh wait, thats already happened)
What are we waiting on? Sounds like my kind of country. Sure beats those pansy assed demo’s waving their surrender towels(like this is some football game).
Vaughn – Thanks for the link, it was a good read.
But it only reinforces the opinions of those that wish for withdrawal from Iraq. At this point, anyone who believes that we do not need an exit plan, and that “things are getting better”, would probably argue with Bush himself if Bush would finally admit that we need to decide on a new strategy.
TDT, true; but Sen. Hagel’s assessments deserve to be considered, IMHO.
“The slogan is “we can’t figure out what to do – so we’ll just whine.”"
Posted by JM republicant.
Sure we do: out this so-called decider, get someone in there with enough huevos to undo what shrub had done, and get our troops home and out of harms way.
But what republicant can’t seem to understand is most of shrubs loyal followers are deserting the sinking bushtanic. Of course, they must be closet libs, right? hahahahaha!
Vaughn – I agree that Hagel’s assessment deserves to be considered. He has been over there several times, and he is not advocating withdrawal because he dislikes Bush.
As the position of supporting Bush becomes ever more untenable, the shrill desperation from the far-right becomes far more audible. Case in point: Republican’s talking point-infused, mindless diatribes.
Good point, CF2K.
The US has stopped training troops.
Let that sink in for a moment. The US has stopped training Iraqi troops.
Why?
Because it wasn’t working. The trained troops were just as likely to fight against us as for us.
They’re “standing up” alright. Standing up against us . . .
Now Capn, is that one of those things they call a “blatant misrepresentation”? Or hopefully, you just read more into it than was there. Regardless, stick to the facts please. The US has not stopped training Iraqi troops.
You really want to get into a name-calling contest J M Walker? Or is that all you’re really made of?
Of course, your hands are squeaky clean, right Republican?
Linked article on the status of the Iraqi forces, which I believe pertinent to the discussion.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/04/30/riminton.iraqtroops/index.html
There was an opportunity after the fall of Saddam to reconstitute the Iraqi Army using rank-and-file soldiers from the old army – soldiers who in many cases had taken their weapons home with them when they chose to to resist the invasion. Bush ordered that not be done. So, we have twin problems – these armed men have no jobs and nowhere to go and we have no competant base upon which to build the new ARI. A number of people involved in the invasion and aftermath have questioned the wisdom of that order by Bush.
Hard to imagine Iraqis standing in recruitment lines, possibly getting blown up in line, for a job that probably won’t pay them! Wonder if they’re not trying to get some marketable skills.
Mike your right. We should have left him alone. Heck we only found 400,000 buried in graves the first two days of occupation. We should have left another dictator alone as well. His name was Adolph.
I bet over half of those mass graves were filled when Augustus Stupidass’s father, struck a deal to stand by and take no further action for saddam’s surrender.
And another good chunk of them in prior years when Rumsfield was helping to arm him. Remember, back then killing Shiites and Kurds was a good thing – according to our foreign policy at the time.
Leaving Iraq would be a disaster without parallel. It would bring a bloodbath to Iraq and a civil war that outsiders like Saudi Arabia and Iran would become involved in. More than likely Turkey would invade the north to get rid of the Kurd threat on their border. It would also be costly to the USA in that nobody would ever trust us again to stick it out when we said we would. We simply cannot leave and we won’t leave for many many years to come no matter who is elected. The Democrats might run on the “leave Iraq” platform but even if they win (hopefully), they will have second thoughts the day after and then have to explain why we have to to stay. I think a better and more honest approach that the Democrats should take is to simply point out that it was the Republicans who LIED and got us into this mess which is reason enough to get rid of them. And then tell the voters the truth like “I oppose the war but we are there now and, while I hope to bring the boys home as soon as possible, I just cannot make any promises as to when and be responsible”.
“The primary threat isn’t a war – it’s that Iran will carve out a sphere of influence for itself that encompasses the whole of Iraq. As wretched a man as Hussein was, one good thing we can say about him is that he kept Iran firmly in check…”
Iran is going to enjoy much more influence in the neighbourhood whether we stay or not. Many countries are beginning to see Iran as the dominant military and economic power in the middle east. Even “friendly” regimes like the UAE and Bahrain are getting more cozy with Iran. We are just going to have to accept that and deal with it.
If the excuse is now that we are there so we, as America, have to see it through to the end, we need to punish those that got us into this.
There is no more disinformation that is acceptable – they lied or mislead or distorted – and now they have to pay.
Keep America in Iraq at the expense of our servicemen and women and our treasury?
Fine – offer up one neocon per day for execution. Offer up one Bush supporter per day for the firing squad. Offer up one right wing commentator for a public hanging.
Cut the crap – let’s hang 3,333 Republicans and war supporters.
Fair is fair, after all…..
Said it before — quoting from others —-
Nations fight wars — not Armies — one of the biggest mistakes that was made on the War on Terror, War in Iraq is the entire nation was not engaged in the war — less than 1% —- are actively engaged —- if we want to stay there some one has to have the nerve to tell the nation “WE” will be fighting the war from now on — not just Cpl Rock etc ….. and implement policies that support that — draft? rationing?
oh ……. that 1 % does not include those that are profiting obscenly (sic) from the war —
Shall we start with
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.
“Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.
“Hussein has … chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.
“There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction.”Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do.”Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. “[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real …Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
Of course, your proposition is preposterous, but makes the point.Is say we execute one congressman for each yay vote authorizing the action. I say that we start with former President Clinton. Cut the crap. Execute one person each day that now controls the purse strings if they don;t cut off the funds for Iraqi missions immediately. Have the balls or go home.
Notice how the party of “personal responsibility” takes ownership of all their lies leading up to the invasion of Iraq, an invasion that was never in question once the pretext of 9-11 had been so conveniently provided?
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/transcript1.html
RICHARD PERLE (ABC THIS WEEK 11/18/01): Weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein, plus his known contact with terrorists, including Al Qaeda terrorists, is simply a threat too large to continue to tolerate.
BILL MOYERS: Among their leading spokesmen were Richard Perle and James Woolsey. Both sat on the Defense Policy Board advising Donald Rumsfeld. And they used their inside status to assure the press that overthrowing Hussein would be easy.
RICHARD PERLE (CNN 11/19/01): We would be seen as liberators in Iraq.
BILL MOYERS: Major newspapers and magazines gave them prime space to make their case, including the possibility that 9/11 had been “sponsored, supported and perhaps even ordered by Saddam Hussein.” The president, they said, should take “Preemptive action.”
WILLIAM KRISTOL (MEET THE PRESS, NBC, 10/7/01): The biggest mistake we have made-it’s our mistake, it’s not the mistake of the Arabs– was not finishing off Saddam Hussein in 1991.
BILL MOYERS: No one got more air time from an arm chair than Bill Kristol, editor of THE WEEKLY STANDARD And a media savvy Republican strategist.
In the 1990s Kristol organized a campaign for increased military spending and a muscular foreign policy. In 1998 he and his allies wrote President Bill Clinton urging him ‘to remove Saddam Hussein from power.
And now, just days after 9/11 with many of their allies serving in the administration, they wrote an open letter to President Bush calling for regime change in bagdad. Over the coming months Kristol’s Weekly Standard kept up the drum beat.
FRED BARNES (BELTWAY BOYS, Fox 11/24/01): What are the consequences if the US does not finish off this Saddam Hussein as a second step in the war on terrorism?
WILLIAM KRISTOL: It would mean that the president having declared a global war on terrorism didn’t follow through– didn’t take out the most threatening terrorist state in the world.”
TIM RUSSERT (MEET THE PRESS, NBC 12/30/01): Safire will you wager Ms. Wright, right now that Saddam will be out of power by the end of 2002.
WILLIAM SAFIRE: Absolutely. I’ll see you here a year from now.
CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: (FOX NEWS 9/22/01) If you go after Iraq you’re gonna lose a lot of allies, but who cares.
BILL MOYERS: Charles Krauthammer and other top columnists at THE WASHINGTON POST also saw the hand of Saddam Hussein in the terrorist attacks . . .
Jim Hoagland implicated Hussein within hours after the suicide bombers struck on 9/11.
. . . and the POST’s George Will fired away on the talk shows.
GEORGE WILL (ABC 10/28/01): The administration knows he’s vowed-Hussein has vowed revenge, he has anthrax, he loves biological weapons, he has terrorist training camps, including 747’s to practice on . . .
*****
If I had gone on TV and said all that bullsh*t, I would have expected to be fired.
But IOKIYAR.
It’s their story, and they’re sticking to it.
I am in favor of that, LJ. Put Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Powell, Frist, Lott, DeLay, Rice, Hastert, Tenent, Ashcroft, Gonzalez, Wolfowitz, Perle, etc, at the head of the list.
Do it and get it over with it.
outlander wrote that we are still training troops.
Technically, that is true and my statement (I was working from memory) was false.
However, the Bush administration is apparently backing away from their claim that training troops is going to do any good even while Bush continues to claim it:
U.S. plan backs off training of Iraqis
Policy shift entrusts security to American troop buildupApril 22, 2007
BY NANCY A. YOUSSEF
MCCLATCHY NEWSPAPERS
WASHINGTON — Military planners have abandoned the idea that training Iraqi troops will enable U.S. troops to start coming home and now say American forces will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.
Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.
. . . .
Although President George W. Bush said in a speech Friday in East Grand Rapids that Iraqi forces are leading the attacks on insurgents, evidence has been building for months that training those troops is no longer the focus of U.S. policy and that the troops have been ineffective.
Pentagon officials said they know of no new training resources in U.S. plans to dispatch 28,000 more troops to Iraq.
*****
Say one thing, do another. That’s my George.
Worst. President. Ever.
FLIP
FLOP
WORST PRESIDENT EVER!
WSClark-
I hope you are being preposterous for preposterous sake. I certainly was. Calling for the execution/ assination of those you disagree with evidence of a madman. I suspect that you are not that, socut the crap. Nobody is going to listen to BS like that. It only makes your rantings more difficult to even consider. Get a life
Gee LJ, all he did was to agree with you. YOU are the one who ranted that we should kill everyone! So …
“cut the crap. Nobody is going to listen to BS like that. It only makes your rantings more difficult to even consider. Get a life”
“Calling for the execution/ assasination of those you disagree with evidence of a madman”
I NEVER called for the assasination of anyone – but if these people led this country into war on false premises, they should be executed.
Fair enough?
WSC – they should get fair trials first – we should set up tribunals to do so.
After a few years in Gitmo…..
Ben and WSCLark-
I bow down to your greater wisdom.And thanks for showing yourselves.I apparently have no further reason to listen to either one of you.
Good for you lj – after your pro-assasinaton rant I was beginning to wonder about you. Figured you might be a follower of terrorist-lover Ann Coulter.
I would not advocate executing people. That just lowers us to the level of the Republicans. I would like to see many Republicans in prison for their lies, theft, deceit and outright treason. They are as much a danger to this country as Al Quada is if not more.
Ann Coulter should be in prison too!
Yes! And it’s despicable what Democrat Politicians are doing. They are literally spitting on the faces of the brave soldiers of America.
May they never forgive the Democrats using them as a political football.
Leaving Iraq would be a disaster without parallel. It would bring a bloodbath to Iraq and a civil war that outsiders like Saudi Arabia and Iran would become involved in. More than likely Turkey would invade the north to get rid of the Kurd threat on their border. It would also be costly to the USA in that nobody would ever trust us again to stick it out when we said we would. We simply cannot leave and we won’t leave for many many years to come no matter who is elected. The Democrats might run on the “leave Iraq” platform but even if they win (hopefully), they will have second thoughts the day after and then have to explain why we have to to stay. I think a better and more honest approach that the Democrats should take is to simply point out that it was the Republicans who LIED and got us into this mess which is reason enough to get rid of them. And then tell the voters the truth like “I oppose the war but we are there now and, while I hope to bring the boys home as soon as possible, I just cannot make any promises as to when and be responsible”.Posted by: Kev | April 30, 2007 at 06:45 PM
Kev, with all due respect it’s just that kind of hysteria that got us into Iraq in the first place.
Calm down, and think.
For instance, some people who are close to Augustus Stupidus and who know the situation in Iraq disagree with you and the president.
From the Newsweek link:***************************************But in private, some of Bush’s most senior aides dispute that scenario. One senior administration official with extensive knowledge of the region, who didn’t want to be identified discussing sensitive policy matters, tells NEWSWEEK that the chances of a regional war in Iraq are low in the event of a U.S. withdrawal. When asked if a regional war would break out, the official said: “Possibly, not probably. It’s more likely that other powers would support their favorite militias, as they’re doing already.”
The senior official said the genocidal bloodbath that Sen. John McCain outlined recently was also unlikely, pointing to the militias’ ability to secure their own neighborhoods after the attack on the Golden Mosque in Samarra in early 2006. (The official’s main concern: the Iraqi government’s failure to unify the nation and address the root cause of sectarian conflict. “Both the Sunni and Shia are too afraid of each other,” the official said.)
***************************
The US military is finished with its mission in Iraq. There are no military solutions there because the US simply blew the chance to build a meaningful coalition in 2003 that could have provided the 300,000-500,000+ troops it would have taken (in 2003-4) to secure Iraq and incubate a nascent democracy.
And that’s assuming a lot, frankly. I guess many Americans still don’t know that Islam skipped the Enlightenment. The US is a country born of the Enlightenment (in fact, believe it or not right here in Kansas public schools it used to be taught to all students that the US Declaration of Independence and the Bill of rights were the greatest products of the Age of Reason) and we’ve had roughly 230 years to work out just how reason or rationality is the basis of all governmental power, not religion.
That’s a 230+ year head start on Iraq, and I don’t think anybody in Europe or anywhere else reasonably expects the US to incubate Iraq through its own Age of Reason.
The only solutions remaining in 2007 are political. They must come from Iraqis themselves, and Iraq must travel a road of its own unique design. The US military has finished its mission in Iraq; our presence now only prolongs the inevitable and lengthens Iraq’s journey. That’s what the “senior US official” in my link is talking about, too.
How about as a political prop … with a nice photo op wearing a flightsuit in front of a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner!
Not to pick on you Ben, but it must be “Mission Accomplished” day out there in Libville. I notice the alphabet news orgs are doing their part too.
When do the next posting orders come down for y’all?
…it must be “Mission Accomplished” day out there…Posted by: outlander | April 30, 2007 at 09:32 PM
Isn’t tomorrow Commander Codpiece Day?
I think THAT may explain a lot, lol.
You know, I’m surprised we haven’t seen Commander Codpiece contests yet. In fact, I’m surprised some enterprising young person hasn’t yet thought to organize a Marching Codpiece Brigade or some such in this years River Festival. I think codpieces and kazoos would go well together, probably get a big laugh along the parade route…
Hell, lots of potential there. Just think, maybe Commander Codpiece Day will someday be a Federal holiday.
Nice ring: May 1, Commander Codpiece Day!
Outlander – They don’t.
All right — cookies for everyone, coloring books and crayons are on the shelf — the adults want to talk
OK — how about a discussion about how we, (the rest of the nation that doesn’t live and work in the beltway) , have failed to do our part to support the war effort?
Starting points for discussion:
1. We did not ask or demand more oversight of the war effort from Day 1. Particularly in planning and defining goals? … and insuring our troops had all the right equipment, support and medical care for them and their families?
2. We allowed ourselves to be “SOLD” on the war and not “ENLISTED” for the war.
3. We don’t demand adult behavior from our leaders — we let them get away with spin, name calling, pork barrel, questionable ethical behavior, we really don’t hold them accountable …. add your own…
4. Our attention span is very short …..
5. We elected these clowns — all of em …..
… but we don’t want to talk about that — it’s “their” fault
What a joke
JUST IN
BELL AIRE SOLDIER
4-30-07 – 21-year-old Alex Funcheon died in Baghdad over the weekend when the humvee he was riding in hit a roadside bomb. All three soldiers in the vehicle died.Alex went to Heights high school and joined the military right after high school. His parents describe him as fun and happy-go-lucky, but serious about his position in the army.He is survived by his parents of Bel Aire and his 18-year-old sister. The funeral will take place sometime in the next week to ten days.”O God, our Heavenly Father, we remember before Thee this day,those who laid down their lives in the service of their country.We remember their courage and devotion to the Sovereign and the country they served.We pray that their labours be not in vain but that their spirit may live on in us and the generations to come.We pray that liberty, truth and love may spread over all the world ’til war shall cease to be.We remember our brethren who are in sickness or distress.We remember the widows and other dependants.We dedicate ourselves to Thy service in the name of those whose memory we revere.We ask this in the name of our Lord.” “Amen
th,”I think a year from now, it would look a lot better than it does now.”
Isn’t that what you guys were saying a year ago, two years ago and three years ago? Their military won’t stand up as long as we’re the ones taking the hits. Further, nobody knows whose side the Iraqi military will be on when they do stand up.This war, from start to finish, was based on an ideology that was flawed and failed over a century ago. Unfortunately, the neo-cons never read their history lessons, so we’re stuck with repeating them.
Ben – I hope you come back to read this, but WSC was the first one to start talking about executing those in power, and LJ replied. I think you missed the first rant of WSC’s. It was definitely out there, and even hating Bush as much as I do, it did sound like the rantings of a madman.
Thanks TDT – I missed that part.