“Firing a prosecutor for failing to find wide voter fraud is like firing a park ranger for failing to find Sasquatch,” Michael Waldman and Justin Levitt of the New York University School of Law wrote in the Washington Post. They were referring to the Washington state U.S. attorney who was sacked after failing to prosecute voter fraud.
Individual voter fraud is nearly nonexistent, Waldman and Levitt wrote, because it’s not worth it; a person casting two votes risks jail time and a fine for minimal gain. As a result, “proven voter fraud, statistically, happens about as often as death by lightning strike,” they wrote.
Yet the fraud myth fuels attempts in Kansas and elsewhere to place ID restrictions on voting, which studies have shown keep eligible voters from voting. Waldman and Levitt argue that if lawmakers really want to protect against voter fraud, they should do more to ensure that electronic voting machines are hack-proof.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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I made the same point about a week ago.
Phillip,
I won’t bother repeating myself from the March 24 blog thread, but all my arguments still hold. Why this repeat blog entry? What’s changed since March 24?http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/03/lets_make_it_ev.html
WHEN will the Eagle DO SOME RESEARCH?
Using data from the Secretary of State from Dec 2006, Sedgwick County had 233,341 registered voters. But the Sedgwick County Election Office only knows how to contact 207,178 by mail — the “Active” voters as they are called. That is, let’s do the math, the Sedgwick County Election Ofice doesn’t know how to contact by mail 233,341 - 207,178 = 26,163 voters. Could 26,163 voters affect any election? In some elections (like Presidential elections), perhaps 5-10% of these inactive voters show up — it would take time to get exact figures. These “inactive” voters very likely are voting in the WRONG state rep and other district races when they do vote, since often they have moved without a forwarding address.
DO SOME RESEARCH and find out about the problems in the voter registration data. Get a list of some of the inactive voters in Sedgwick County and see if you can find them. Get a list of inactive voters that vote and find out where thy really live, and see if they voted in the State Rep District where they live now, or where they used to live.
Here’s another example but from Reno County. Remember Dennis Langley, the state KDP Chair from 1993 to 1999, who was involved in some political money scandals? Langley moved to South Dakota and has been involved in questionable political money there (see http://southdakotapolitics.blogs.com/south_dakota_politics/2004/week25/index.html#entry-1612434). Even though Langley has not voted in Kansas since 1998, and has lived in South Dakota since about 2000, he is still an active Reno County voter and can show up at his old polling place and vote if he wants to. Actually, unless there is a sharp election official in Hutchinson, anyone saying they are “Dennis Langley” can likely show up at his old polling place and vote for him.
Should we work with election officials and law enforcement and show just how easy it would be to vote for someone else in Kansas?And like I asked last time:
Why does the Eagle continue to try to weaken the integrity of our elections?
They passed it photo ID in Missouri I believe.
They also allowed signature ballots to be mailed in which can be verified with the signature on file. I believe they also allow a utility bill with the voters name on it as a form of identification. Drivers licenses, State ID cards, etc.
I don’t see a problem showing an ID to vote.
Unless of course, you have something to hide.
The VERY interesting thing about this - is watching the faction that does NOT want an ID bill passed.
It begs the question, why?
Why would ANYONE be opposed to protecting the integrity of the VERY foundation of our nation?
Is it, as the two law students claim? Is it because there is so little voter fraud?
Or is it because they KNOW there is room to cheat the system?
Their basis is that ‘individual fraud’ is nearly non-existent.
LOL - what a bunch of hooey. As a person who takes elderly folks to the polls, only to find that one had already ‘voted,’ my guess is that there are (perhaps) some mistakes due to human error, but, there is LOTS of room for fraud.
And do we REALLY trust the Party that sent its members out to slash the tires on Senior Citizen buses so they couldn’t vote to suddenly decide the fraud is too small to deal with?
If ONE PERSON’S vote is taken away - this country has become compromised.
Sad to say - New York University School of Law is turning out more lackluster attorneys.
Is anyone REALLY surprised?
Voter fraud is not a serious issue. It might be IF we had greater than 70% voter turnout, but when was the last time anyone saw that?
It IS voter turnout that is the problem. You want to do something about that? Start fining people for not voting, like the Aussies do. Voting is not only a right; it is a duty
I agree with Brownlee, the machines are what scares me, and I will not use them. Florida has proven time and again how easily those machines can be manipulated.
When this topic was debated on March 24th, several points were made that Republican, KS Meadowlark and GSheridan continue to ignore or refuse to accept. They are, of course, entitled to their opinions and I am grateful, above all, that we live in a country where these matters may be discussed in a public forum.
As Scholfield noted in his March 24 post, Kansas State Sen. Tim Huelskamp’s proposed measure would require a passport or birth certificate from people registering to vote, as well as photo ID from people actually voting. It has also been made clear that the Republican Secretary of State, who has had ample time in office to do research as KS Meadowlark advises, can’t provide us with information that proves we have a voter fraud problem in Kansas. Now Brownlee provides an article that underscores the reason why voter fraud is nearly nonexistent. For one thing, you get thrown in the hoosegow, and to what end? (I am working from the premise that most Americans are like me and prefer to eat lasagna and garlic bread made in their own ovens as opposed to the chow lovingly nuked in the sneezer.)
Therefore, the question must be raised: why are Huelskamp and his fellow Republicans attempting to bestow this wisdom upon us?
As I said in my initial post on March 24, the agenda is transparent. Huelskamp and Co. apparently fear a changing voter demographic and they want to protect their advantage in the voter rolls by putting hoops in the system for new arrivals to jump through, thereby slowing down the process. When you consider the Republican edge in the existing voter rolls, it is unquestionably to the GOP’s advantage to put restrictions in the registration process that are resistant to change. The assertion that all Kansas citizens will be able to round up a copy of a birth certificate in time for registration is preposterous. This may come as a shock, but the guy who has 50 or 60 dollars in his pocket on Monday to get him through the week to pittance time is not going to heave 21 of it on a birth certificate for registration. He is going to stock up on spaghetti, he is going to protect his supply of oatmeal, he is going to knock back a couple of candy bars, and he is going to hope to God in Heaven that he does not have car trouble in the meantime. Perhaps the aforementioned posters don’t care if that guy can’t vote. If such is the case, I disagree. I want that guy to have a voice in our system.
Mr. Huelskamp, of course, has been involved in other legislative actions that failed to serve the democratic process. Specifically, I refer to the transcript of the debate on S Sub for Sub HB 3012, which was the gerrymandering case in 2002. I see no reason to hold forth at length about that. Huelskamp’s Republican colleague Derek Schmidt was so eloquent in his protest of the matter that I can only defer to his comments.
Finally, Republican continues to argue that no potential problem exists with requiring photo ID at the polling place. In the March 24 debate, however, a gentleman pointed out that “We cannot permit weary, perhaps partisan-motivated, autocratic poll workers to be the determiners of who gets to vote and who doesn’t.”
These are my thoughts, and I will not be able to participate in the discussion until much later in the day. My employer expects to see me at seven a.m., and I really do enjoy getting paid.
“And do we REALLY trust the Party that sent its members out to slash the tires on Senior Citizen buses so they couldn’t vote to suddenly decide the fraud is too small to deal with?”
Just curious did the above really happen? Which party? I’m presuming the GOP because they have been in charge in KS — but it wouldn’t surprise me if the Dems tried it too. Did it happen in a recent election?
I can’t see the problem with some sort of ID being required to vote.
As I’ve said before there are several things that can be done to increase voter turn out. Elections on weekends. Polling places at places where large numbers of people congregate, i.e. malls, large companies etc ….
Regardless — GO VOTE !! (early and often like they do in Chicago.)
I don’t even know if I can find my own birth certificate.
Nope, just looked in my files, and no birth certificate for me.
I just thought we’d have to show ID, guess I better fork out money to the state of Missouri.
Just how does showing an ID reduce voter turnout? Specifically why do people not vote if they are asked for an ID? You have to have an ID to rent a movie at Blockbuster. You have to have a license to drive. You must show an ID to cash/write a check or in many places to use a credit card. Yet, none of those activities seem to be “harmed”.
Voter fraud is not limited to one party. How many years did the Democrats continue to re-elect John Dailey in Chicago with the votes of dead people? This is not a partisan issue.
What is wrong with addressing it now? Or should we wait until voter fraud is so out of control that it can’t be addressed?
I’m not against showing an ID. I AM against having to have my darn birth certificate in order to register.
Mr. Brownlee is a left wing political hack that is trying to defuse a growing problem in the US. He is probably one to bitch loudest about the 2000 and 2004 elections being “stolen” but when it comes to illegal voting and voter fraud he digs uo crap for research.
Get a life and grow a brain Mr. Phillip.
Will the state make IDs available to low-income Kansans at no charge?
Will the state open more storefronts for people to get their IDs? The only place in Wichita is at 21st and Amidon; that’s hardly accessible to low-income Kansans with transportation and mobility issues.
Will the state keep their ID-issuing facilities open during extended hours or on Saturdays? Many working poor cannot take time off work to walk/bus to 21st and Amidon.
Will the state issue free birth certificates to low-income voters, and pay for the birth certificates for low-income voters who were born in other states?
Unless all the answers are “yes,” then the state is intentionally trying to keep lawful voters from casting their votes.
The fact is, many low income Kansans do not have drivers licenses, do not have state-issued ID cards, and do not have a certified copy of their birth certificates carefully filed away. They make little to no money, and the $50 it would take to acquire both documents is an insurmountable obstacle.
Tyler Durden,
Voter fraud is an increasing problem? OK. Prove it. Provide statistical data showing that it is on the increase, and that requiring voters to show an ID will fix the problem.
raptor,
Show me there’s a problem with widespread voter fraud in the first place. Then show me that requiring ID’s will fix it. And in the course of doing so, show me how it won’t disproportionately impact those groups of voters who don’t vote Republican–namely, elderly black folks, poor folks, and recent Hispanic/Latino immigrants.
Show me there’s a problem that’s widespread enough and sufficiently serious to justify the new restrictions. I’ve seen NO evidence. What I HAVE seen, however, are lots of GOP efforts in states like Georgia and Missouri to rodent-bugger the vote against demographic groups who trend Democratic.
KS Meadowlark,
Has Dennis Langley voted in South Dakota? If he has, he obviously should be prosecuted. If he hasn’t, then what business is it of yours whether or not he continues to be registered here or there? There is such a thing as maintaining legal residency in one place while voting in another. It’s called being an “absentee” voter.
To take the argument a bit further, are you saying it is the state’s judgment call whether somebody is allowed to continue as a registered voter in a state where they don’t happen to reside, but still maintain legal residence? So long as I’m voting only once in any given election, under what identity, what business is it of the state’s to decide where I “ought” to be voting?
You might ask B1 Bob Dornan if voter fraud is a problem.
Hank
Everyone should have to have a photo ID to vote. The state should subsidize the cost for low income earners. Possibly funded from gambling proceeds so some could, in effect, get some of the money back they blew at the track.
If this is done, it is fair and no one should complain.
Of course, you will still run into those who don’t care enough about their privilege to vote to get their photo ID, even if its free. But, as I have stated before, if someone doesn’t care enough to register or obtain an ID, they don’t care enough to inform themselves on the issues. They should do the country a favor and stay home.
Oops,
The boy has been on my computer at work too!
Hank
With the growing risk of ID fraud all over the world - why should we wait for a massive problem to occur before we protect the integrity of our system?
Ken - yes, it happened. Chicago. Dem Party.
So now Nathan is trolling Hank Price.
Trouble in the family, I tell you what.
GSheridan,
Something more recent than Richard Daley the First, please. You’ve yet to make your case.
Excuse me, CF?
I’m not talking about Daley’s era - this was the last Presidential Election.
Evidently CF has never heard of ACORN. How come if the Republicans win a raise the Democrats cry Voter Fraud on the National News, in every paper, Internet and just about every where you can look. Then when Republicans get in power they start squealing when they find voter fraud.
Just an example of voter fraud cases:
http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=6715%20
OK. Documentation?
When I return, I’ll have some voter and election fraud indictments of GOP operatives from Ohio and elsewhere to discuss.
Let’s just solve this whole problem and fingerprint everyone.
Good CF2K, If you have proof of GOP operatives committing voter fraud, all the more reason to jail the suckers and it proves the point of having photo ID.
Thanks for that link, Republican. An unbiased source such as the national Republican Party website is the first place I always go when doing online research. I always trust sites that have polls like this:
If the Democrats took control of Congress, what part of their agenda would concern you the most?Cutting and running in the War on Terror?
Republican hit the nail on the head. Go ahead - FIND GOP voter fraud cases - it only serves to STRENGTHEN the need to use ID.
Duh.
I have to show my Drivers License when I use my Credit card to make purchases…
I have to show my Drivers License half the time I order a drink…
I have to show my Drivers License to buy Gas at Quick Trip…
I have to show my Drivers License to renew my registration…
I have to show my Drivers License at the bank when I withdraw money or do other transactions…
I have to have my Drivers License to drive… (How the hell are they getting to the voting place without their ID???)
Yet here we are complaining about the burden of showing your ID to vote?
Give me a break. Make people show their ID to vote. Why are the Democrats so scared?
Nathan, that’s the two hundred dollar question, “Why are the Democrats so scared?”
That’s because the MSM buries voter fraud cases Tom. Just google ACORN Vote Fraud and you will find 308,000 hits.
Or US Voter Fraud in google, you will find 2,460,000 hits.
Why are the Democrats so afraid of using an ID when you vote? Is there something to hide?
You have a party that can’t elect a president without 90% of the black vote.
A party that can’t elect a president with out 60% of the Hispanic vote.
A party that can’t carry Florida if all the military votes are counted.
A party that needs voters so lazy and so stupid that they come up with “motor voter” legislation to ensure the dumbest and laziest amongst us could vote.
A party that could not have elected president Kennedy without wholesale voter fraud in Illinois and Texas.
A party that wants to give the right to vote to convicted felons still in prison.
A party that wants to give mentally handicapped people so debilitated they can not understand the process the right to vote.
A party that fights any law that requires individual responsibility when it comes to voting.
And now, when 98% of the people that can legally vote have picture IDs they want to block legislation that would require them to show those IDs.
Why, if not because they want to corrupt the process for political gain?
Just wondering,
Hank
Republican: “Why are the Democrats so afraid of using an ID when you vote? Is there something to hide?” Did you read my earlier post? I have no objection to requiring ID at the polls, as long as its free and freely available and freely accessible to low-income voters, and voters with mobility/transportation/employment issues.
Nathan: “(How the hell are they getting to the voting place without their ID???)” Until our Republican elections commissioner, Bill Gale, wiped out nearly 70% of the neighborhood polling places, it was VERY EASY to get to the polls without driving.
If you can’t afford a Drivers License, then you have bigger problems to worry about than having to show ID to vote…
If you are too lazy to get a Drivers License, then you are probably (or should be) to lazy to vote…
Nathan has decided, all on his lonesome, that inability to get a drivers license due to income or access issues is a valid barrier to your civil right to vote.
Nice.
Nathan, I registered as a Republican way back in 1979, and voted for far more Republican candidates than Democratic for many years. Two years ago, however, I switched parties. I don’t always feel comfortable in the Democratic party, but statements like yours make me regret my decision less and less.
Thanks for making me feel better about myself today.
it was VERY EASY to get to the polls without driving.
Posted by: Tom | April 02, 2007 at 10:30 AM
Bull! Before the polling stations were changed, I would have still had to walk 14 blocks. Now if you were worried about the disable or the elderly now, then you should have been concerned for them back then.
Doing anything in today’s society requires a photo ID.
If voters don’t want to use a photo ID, then vote provisional ballot which requires a matching signature kept by the Court house.
I don’t see a problem here.
What are the Democrats trying to hide?
Tom,
There are many things in my life which are prohibited by my inability to produce identification.
Wah, Wah, Wah.
Why wouldn’t someone have identification?
It is not that hard or expensive to go down to the Drivers License place and get one.
Sure you might have to wait in line, but cry me a river.
Tom,
If someone doesn’t have an ID and wants to vote, they simply contact the county or their district and explain their circumstances and as Republican mentioned get some type of ballot which is certified?
That would take care of all 3 people who were too lazy or too cheap to go get a drivers license.
Well, it would take care of those too cheap anyhow!
Nathan,
Let me, once again, clue you in. I don’t oppose requiring ID to vote. But if the state is going to require ID to exercise the most basic of civil rights, then it needs to do so in a way that removes cost and access barriers to the most vulnerable in society. See my 8:16 post.
Tom,
How much does it cost for a Drivers License and how hard is it to go to the center to get one?
Oh my goodness!
Nathan,
The bill that Senator Huelskamp is pushing would *require* state-issued picture ID to vote. It would *require* a certified copy of a birth certificate to *register* to vote.
Total cost: about $50.
I’ll take this opportunity to remind you that the minimum wage in Kansas is $2.65 an hour, and there are over 10,000 Kansans who get paid just that.
The thumb print idea holds a lot of water. Bioscanning is alive and well. Thumbprints would be a VERY viable option.
If y’all want to talk about voter fraud, talk about the ballot machines. Look at Florida’s midterm election. 18,000 votes were not counted.
OK, that’s 18,000 folks that made it to the polls, jumped thru the hoops, and voted, but their votes didn’t count.
I’ve posted on this for several months. No one seemed to care. The REAL issue is in the voting and tallying machines.
Oh yeah, that was just in one county too…
Tom,
The federaly mandated minimum wage supercedes that and they are getting paid at least 5.XX per hour.
Waitresses and Waitors are getting paid about what you said, plus tips.
So they make far more than the minimum except in probably the most remote podunk barley making it kind of restaurants.
Sol,
Are you talking about the 18,000 voters who were too dumb to punch their cards properly and then review them to make sure they were punched properly per instructions?
Or are these a different group of people?
Since I don’t know any illegal aliens, I don’t know of anyone who works for $2.65/hour other than teenagers and those in employment where you get tips.
I’m McDonald’s pays more than that. I remember someone telling me that they started at 5.15/hour.
A custodial job usually starts at 6/hr or more.
Nathan,This was not a chad issue. They used the Deibold electronic voting machines. The machines do not offer you the opportunity to review who you have voted for. These machines do not provide an audit trail of the votes received. These 18,000 voters voted on most other issues, but somehow the most heated race on the ballot were not tallied.
Democrats forgot to take into account the pseudo Dixiecrat vote. That is, those registered Democrat but voted Republican. There were lots of Democrats that voted for Jeb Bush for Governor.
Many of the sub-$5.15 earners are agricultural workers.
Most of those work on farms in rural Kansas.
All the farmers in rural Kansas are good, rock-solid Republicans.
Good, rock-solid Republicans don’t hire illegal aliens. They only hire honest, hard-working Americans.
Right?
:::huge effing eyeroll:::
What Slate has to say about voter fraud.http://www.slate.com/id/2108807/
But Tom, you pointed to the $2.65/hour jobs…now they are up to $5.15 hour for farm labor?
How many of those are illegal aliens? How many are teenagers or college students during the summer?
Let’s see some proof of your assertions, I want to see statistics, when, where and who.
And besides, illegal aliens can’t vote, so what exactly was your point?
Tom,
Where in Kansas are people getting paid less than 5.15 an hour?
Specifically.
I typed *SUB*-5.15. Please read carefully.
You’re the one saying illegal aliens are the only ones making that little, and therefore can’t vote. I’m not buying it.
My point remains: Erecting financial and access barriers to voting is unfair and undemocratic. If the state is going to erect these identification requirements, financial and access barriers *to* that ID must be removed.
So these Guest Workers who are citizens of another country that cannot vote in U.S. elections affect the current issue at hand exactly how?
Meaning that they are not allowed to vote in US elections?
Like I said, they can vote provisional ballot which only requires a signature. Let’s say an 80 year old invalid woman lives on a farm and cannot drive. She can ask for a provisional ballot to be mailed to her and then can vote.
So what is the problem now with the majority of Kansans to show an ID card at the Poll stations?
You meant to say unfair to the Democratic party as convicted felons, people who like to jump back and forth from Missouri to Kansas to vote, or never send in a change of address so they can vote in multiple places or are dead can still vote in elections? Is that about it?
What is the problem now to show an ID card at the poll stations?
1. It slows voting down and is wholly unnecessary. When one votes in Kansas, your name is on a list. You give them your name and the poll worker checks you off.
You can’t vote twice under the same name.
2. As for the “dead voters,” how often does this happen? How do they do it and how would a photo ID help?
3. The Republicans know that suppressing the vote helps their side. That’s why they want measures like lengthy and convoluted registration processes (as opposed to “motor voter” automatic registrations) and other vote suppressing tatics to help them eke out “majorities.”
4. Convicted felons? Don’t you want Jack Abramoff, Scooter Libby, Duke Cunningham and Tom DeLay to be able to vote?
If you disenfrancise convicted felons, a lot of former high-government Republicans will never be able to vote again . . . .
“This August, Moschella’s name came up in a sweep of voter registration records by the New York Daily News, which found that he and 46,000 other New Yorkers were registered to vote in both Florida and New York. Moschella also had the bad luck to answer the phone when the News reporter, Russ Buettner, called. So, his name appeared in the paper’s Aug. 21 story revealing that in the 2000 election between 400 and 1,000 of these double-registrants voted in both states.”
Republican’s link brings up a serious problem: people registered to vote in more than one state.
But photo ID’s won’t solve this problem. They just show their ID’s in both places.
Also, it doesn’t say how many people actually VOTE twice.
Here’s two solutions, indelible ink on the thumb! Or, the State absorbs the cost for issuing birth certificates, and it comes out of our tax money so people can exercise their civic right.The only time elections are stolen is when the political machinery steals it.Why worry about a few individual cases of voter fraud, when one or two individuals could hack the computerized system and determine the winner? Bizzare.
If convicted felons like those you mentioned CapnAmerica, then they should go to jail again. There is no middle ground.
How does a photo ID help as far as dead voters being used? You have to be kidding me Capn. Did you hear about the case in Missouri where a local politician who had been dead since 1990 voted in the 2004 elections as a Democrat? Just a short distance away was his bronze bust show the span of his life time. The voter that was convicted, simply filled out a voter registration card and voted as the dead politician.
Having a photo ID requires that you prove who you say you are. Now next question Capn if you can manage to think out these scenarios in a logical manner.
Voting Twice: Come on Capan, You don’t have to vote twice as the same person. You can simply send in false voter registration cards to different precincts. Having a photo ID will insure that this isn’t done. Why? Because it is much harder to duplicate various photo ID’s with multiple identities.
NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXTTT!
http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/Voter_Registration_Fraud_Clearinghouse#Most_crucial_news
‘Truth behind Republican Florida ACORN Allegations’http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/17/23429/153
CF2K wasn’t quite right about the recount-rigging convictions of two Cuyahoga County election workers. It isn’t clear that there was a partisan intent on their part. However, it is interesting that the County Elections supervisor, Democrat Michael Vu, was asked to resign by the state Democratic Party and then received the support of state GOP chair Bob Bennet.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/24/AR2007012401441.html
So I’ll concede that one, for the time being, at least. With regard to ACORN, here’s some of their commentary regarding the GOP’s use of voter challenges in Cuyahoga County.
“Cleveland Fights Voter SuppressionWhen the Ohio Republican Party filed with the Board of Elections this last weekend to challenge the validity of nearly 17,000 voters in Cuyahoga County, where Cleveland is located, ACORN and allies immediately took action. Geocoding analysis of the list of challenged voters showed that 45% of those targeted live in communities that are majority African American in a county where African Americans constitute only 27% of the entire voting age population – demonstrating that African Americans were disproportionately affected by the challenge. The GOP compiled the list based on returned letters from a mailing that they sent out to registered voters in the county. By simply matching the list with phone numbers, however, ACORN was able to contact many on the list and found that most – including ACORN member William Bacon Jr. – had not had a change of address and were unaware that their right to vote was being challenged. On Wednesday, October 27, ACORN members and voters on the challenge list held a press conference at the Board of Elections and ACORN members Mary Keith and William Bacon Jr. delivered a letter to the Board of Elections demanding that they put a halt to the challenges. ACORN is asserting that it is not the role of a partisan political organization to try to purge the voter roles. Shortly after ACORN’s press conference, a federal judge in Cincinnati issued a temporary restraining order, halting voter challenges in Cuyahoga and Medina Counties. ACORN is planning protests until the Republican challenge to registered voters’ right to vote is either withdrawn by the Ohio Republican Party or the Board of Elections agrees to override it, and is investigating further means of protecting the right to vote for all citizens in Cuyahoga County.”
http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=8520
In fact, voter challenge is a widespread GOP tactic for harrassment and vote suppression. As far as further rodent-buggering, consider the actions of Sproul and Associates, accused of shredding Democratic voter registrations in Oregon and Nevada.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/14/politics/main649380.shtml
If the general GOP game is voter suppression and creating roadblocks to Democratic voting–as is obvious–then the ID legislation is as consistent with such efforts as is the hysteria about pervasive, widespread voter fraud.
Oops . . . I should have read more closely–”between 400 and 1000 actually voted twice.”
Well . . . that’s a heck of a margin of error on that estimate, but even assuming the higher number, it wouldn’t swing too many elections.
But that’s nothing compared to the US Supreme Court’s decision in Bush v Gore to shut down the state mandated recount because . . . wait for it . . . the appeals took too long for the recount to go forward.
Talk about “justice delayed justice denied”! The courts used its own process to thwart the will of the majority.
“The voter that was convicted, simply filled out a voter registration card and voted as the dead politician.”
Except there are a number of problems with that–
1. The voter was convicted. He faces jail time and a heavy fine for something that most people don’t even find important enough to do routinely.
2. Even had he not been caught, this voter was able to vote exactly twice. Most elections are not swung by a few votes, even local ones.
3. You claim that fake ID’s are hard to come by. Yeah, I guess that explains why millions of teenagers have them.
Bottom line is that Phillip Brownlee’s post was exactly right. Voter fraud is not a serious threat to our democratic process.
ELECTION FRAUD–ballot box stuffing by hacking, illegally throwing voters off the roles like Florida did in 2000, suppressing the vote like inner-city precincts did to Democratic voters in Ohio in 2004 etc. continues to be a serious threat to democracy.
Hmm. I am a Republican. I want people to prove who their are by a phot id before they vote, therefore I am trying to rig the voting against those that don’t support Republican candidates? B.S. I don’t give a crap who you are, or what your individual party identification is. I just want to maintain as clean as possible the voting process. Just because someone says voter fraud won’t happen because the price is too high flies in the face of all the jailhouse residents who found their action worth the possible price. Notice I said possible.If the state needs to provide free birthcertificates to those that have not registered before and do not have a birth certificate. Fine. If you can afford to pay for it, you should, but wouldn’t have to. If you need help getting the photo id, fine. If it’s transportation, I sure many campaign workers or party workers would be glad to transport you. If not, shame on them. If you didn’t have the foresight to get registered or get a phot id before the election, maybe that’s good that you can’t vote. Showing and ID is only a concern for those that wish to hide or are trying to prove a point. Vote fraud happens. Can I prove it? Probably not empiracally. Can I prove the homeless are undercounted? PRobably not. Can I prove that over 50% of all rapes are not reported? No. And neither can anybody else. But we all ascertain those facts to be true. Same with vote fraud. It happens. Denying it doesn’t is unrealistic. Putting one protection in place is a small step. I don’t care which party it helps
Littlejohn–
When you pick up a sportcoat at the dry cleaners, do you show a photo ID?
No, you show them the receipt for the purchase.
Likewise, when you go to vote, you give the poll worker your name which links to your registration information–your receipt.
A photo ID is wholly unnecessary.
Now, if you want to replace voter REGISTRATION with a photo ID, I might be in favor of that . . .
So Capn, what exactly are you afraid of in showing a Photo ID at a Polling Place?
Don’t give me the often cloned “disenfranchised” voter scenario either. Most Democrats could give a rats behind about poor people.
Is this what you mean by rights being violated?
“The latest batch of questionable cards tied to ACORN included one that attempted to register Miya Hinton, who is listed as a 20-year-old residing at an address in the 4800 block of Sacramento Avenue. It turns out that Hinton is 16 and lives at a different address in that block.
Her mother, Monique Hinton, alerted the Election Board after the family received the board’s standard letter confirming the new registration. Hinton says she became concerned about how someone had obtained some of her daughter’s personal information, such as the correct month and day she was born.
“Her rights are being violated,” Hinton said.
Miya Hinton’s signature appears to have been forged on the voter registration card, Leiendecker said.”
Nathan,
My dad, who was 76 when he died 20 years ago last month, did not drive. When I was in high school, he did get a license after taking a driver’s ed class, but I can only remember him driving twice after that. He didn’t renew his license after that first one.
He wasn’t poor–he worked at Boeing for 25 years after working at Fox-Vliet for 20 years–so it wasn’t because he couldn’t afford one. He could have bought a car with cash. And he sure wasn’t lazy.
SOME PEOPLE JUST DON’T DRIVE.
How does verifying identification help one party over the other? Is one party claiming to have a preponderance of people without the means to get a legal id? Is this a valid, verifiable claim?
Roxann,
If you don’t mind me asking, how did your Dad get to Boeing for 25 years of work if he didn’t drive?
Did your Dad know that he could have mailed in his ballet? Surely he did, lot’s of people do this.
As a Liberal Democrat, I don’t have a problem with showing ID to vote. (Are those gasps I hear from the Right?)
I also, personally, don’t have a problem with providing a birth certificate with initial registration. My daughters were all required to show proof of birth when they got their drivers licenses.
However, it’s a small pain to get your bc. It can be done online, but that requires a credit card, and is over $10. Still, I’d rather have to pay for that than to pay the $90+ it takes to get a passport. That’s ridiculous.
And I’m not kidding about fingerprinting everyone. The government already has mine, because I had a government job.
We should absolutely have to prove who we are to vote. Some of the left-wing on Weblog have long cried that they only want reasonable government regulation of things. That is what is being proposed.
As to the wish that free IDs should be available to low-income people. . .No. Offer free identification to all potential voters equally or not at all. It’s time we stopped allowing being poor to be an excuse. If you are going to hand it out to one person, you should hand it out to everyone. Have not those of us providing the financial foundation of this country earned that much? Why ask me to pay for my neighbors ID and refuse to provide me with one as well? If the government actually paid attention to the 14th amendment and ‘equal treatment under the law’ these types of farces would not happen.
(Stepping off soapbox. . .)
CapnAmerica-
No, I don’t have to show an id at the dry cleaners unless i write a check, or use a credit card. Then I do. I could go to a polling area and claim to be anybody on that registration roll, nobody knows the difference. In fact, I could probably go to many places, and do the same. By watching the obituaries, I could probably tell who what active politically and who not, then I could vote under their registration. A photo id stops that. I don;t know how often it happens. I just think we should not let it. As far as nondrivers. My dad, who does not drive–Thankfully because he is legally blind!– Went and got a state issued id. Still no stopper for those who wish to participate.
Capn, when you pick up a coat at the cleaners, the laundry slip has a number and a name on it. You should have a matching slip that has your name and the Laundry’s ticket number.
I’ve been asked by Laundry attendants when I’ve lost my laundry ticket to show proof of address. I showed them my driver’s license.
Republican–
I gave you the reasons already but if you want them again, I’ll give them to you again.
With registration, a photo ID is unnecessary.
You haven’t shown how a photo ID would cut down on voter fraud.
The questionable anecdote you cite of the 16 year old girl who got registered to vote relates to the issue of a photo ID not at all. If she had a photo ID, she could still FRAUDULANTLY vote if she wanted to.
If someone forged a signature, they should be investigated and the perpetrator prosecuted.
But that has nothing to do with a photo ID.
Also, as far as Democratic voters giving a “rat’s ass” about poor people and the disenfranchised, yeah, that’s why we passed the Social Security program over vehement Republican opposition then and now, why we passed Medicare, Medicaid, etc. and why ever elected African-American office-holder at the federal level is Democratic.
Republican,
My dad always rode to work with others. And he paid his share in gas to do that.
I can’t recall a time that he didn’t vote. I do remember my mother saying that if you don’t vote, you don’t get to complain.
BTW, my mother DID drive and later, so did I.
If the person who fraudulently used the girl’s name had shown a photo ID to register to vote, that would have never happened. If they were a first time voter, a birth certificate would have been required and if they were a repeat voter, a photo ID would have been required.
Yeah PhotoID’s can be forged, but personally I don’t want to be on the side with an argument like that. You know, photo ID’s can be forged and other illegal stuff too…would make someone look like they actually support illegal voter activities.
Your point about the laudromat proves what I’m saying.
They give you a ticket just like the Election Office gives you a voter registration card. You don’t need your card because the poll worker has your information.
Anyone trying to vote as you runs the risk of being quickly and easily discovered, just like someone trying to pick up your laundry after you’ve already picked it up.
Unless you’re a little bit nuts, stealing laundry or voting twice is not worth major prison time.
Just a little off the voter registration discussion, but related to ID. Sort of.
My daughter lost her 5-year-old’s SS card. Because it’s need for her daughter’s military ID/insurance, she made a trip up to the SS office on Friday. But even with a birth certificate, she was told she would have to provide other proof THAT THE CHILD WAS STILL LIVING, even though said child was standing right there.
Because my granddaughter doesn’t have utility bills in her name, my daughter was told that she would need to get a signed letter from the family doctor, stating that the child is who her bc said she is and that she is still living.
I understand the reasoning for this. I’m sure there’s a lot of fraud for SS numbers and cards going on with all the illegal immigrants. But it is going to mean that my daughter will have to take another day off work to get it done.
Roxann,
Thanks for answering.
And please no sympathy on this. I have a spine injury and can still drive, but just can’t walk worth a darn. I can find little excuse for those too lazy to go to the polls. It is excruciating painful for me to stand in line on election day, so I usually vote early.
I despise people that make excuses because of so-called handicaps. Blind, quadriplegics, paraplegics and the infirmed I can see need help.
Even if I couldn’t drive, which I suppose will happen someday, my Doctor tells me it will. I will take a bus, call a friend, call a cab, vote absentee, but will still vote.
“If they were a first time voter, a birth certificate would have been required . . . ”
Are you kidding me?! You gotta be kidding me.
I don’t know where the hell my birth certificate is. I don’t even have my Social Security card anymore. It soaked away after I fell out of a boat fishing when I was about 14.
Requiring all this paperwork is going to hurt voter turnout and skew the voting to people who have things like credit cards and passports.
The Republicans know this and that’s why they want it.
Capn,
You can get a social security card replaced for free.
A birth certificate is like 14 bucks.
How did you apply for jobs not having a social security card? I always had to show one.
“I despise people that make excuses because of so-called handicaps. Blind, quadriplegics, paraplegics and the infirmed I can see need help.”
I propose that we petition the Kansas Legislature to require that all voters be able and willing to endure the same level of suffering as Republican in order to vote.
I’m sure that’ll pass both houses, and will certainly pass at the polls.
Count me as the first proponent.
Oh, and I agree with Proudman. If voting is going to be free to some, it should be free to all.
Of course, we already have a free system of voting. Fancy that…
Same deal, Republican.
There’s no advantage to giving a fake number. If I give them a wrong number, then I’m the one that’s out the money for my retirement.
As a matter of fact, one positive aspect of all the illegal aliens working illegally is that they usually give fake SS numbers, which means they are paying in billions of dollars that can never be withdrawn.
Thanks to illegals, SS is in better shape than it would be other wise.
Using birth certificates and photo IDs to establish identity for voting purposes would be acceptable if there were a mechanism to ensure that Everyone that wanted to vote and was legally qualified to would be able to easily obtain the documentation needed to do so.
It has been argued that photo ids are ubiquitous in our society, and Most people should have or could afford to get one. That is true. Notwithstanding that, there are some people that do not have them. The same is true for birth certificates. There is no legal requirement to have either.
The fact of the matter is that the current proposal to require a drivers license and birth certificate Would have the effect that at least a few people that would have otherwise legally voted will not be able to do so.
To quote part of Gsheridan’s post from earlier: ” If ONE PERSON’S vote is taken away - this country has become compromised.”
Don’t worry this will all be taken care of when we initiate the new National ID card.
Brian,
I agree with your proposal, and there should be every attempt to make sure those that can legally vote are able to excercise their right, including providing free birth certificates and/or phot ids. However, the requirement is not a drivers liscence, but a photo id. In fact, as I read the proposal, many types,including employee badges would work. And the birth certificate would only be required for those newly registering. I could be wrong, but I saw nothing that would disenfranchise current voters.
BG, I am holding out for the implementation of NIPP (National Identity Protection Plan.)
Every US citizen will be required to have an RFID chip with a unique personal identifying number implanted under their skin (this will be done intra-uterine for fetuses, at Phil Kline’s request).
To unlock the voting booth, the RFID tag will be scanned and the personal number will be matched to a database of registered voters. After voting, the voter would again scan their RFID implant to have their vote official counted and the database would record that they had voted already.
Littlejohn,
The legislative proposal is for a state or Federal government issued ID. Employee badges aren’t going to count.
I thought I read it otherwise. I stand corrected.
PhillipNobody who is legally allowed to vote will be prevented from voting under any proposal I have seen.My mind goes back to the contested State Rep race between Danny Jones and Mr. Shriver, down in Cowley County, I believe.The County Clerk came up with a whole bag of ballots that had not been counted in the first round, when we got to the recount.No, these new proposals cant stop that, but there were other problems.People voting in the wrong State Rep race because of a move, people not allowed to vote in the correct state rep race because they have moved.Democrats dont want us to go after voter fraud because voter fraud HELPS Democrats, it is that simple!It is almost NEVER prosecuted, so there is very little risk involved, under current law.
I am curious how my fellow posters feel about the electronic voting machines, like those made by Diebold.
Should the public be able to review testing of machines made by different manufacturers?Should each machine have a unique identifier so we can find how many votes for each candidiate came from each machine? Should voters be given a ‘receipt’ for the vote so it can be recounted if needed? What level of auditability should be required for machines used in public elections?
Well, if it’s “never prosecuted,” there’s the problem, Econ.
Why didn’t Republican prosecutors like Phill Kline prosecute the perps?
I think it gets prosecuted plenty. A husband and wife tried to vote absentee and then vote in person, and they were whacked with a jail term.
Turnout helps Democrats because most people identify with Democratic positions (even if they don’t call themselves Democrats).
That’s why the Repubs are so desperate to limit access to the polls.
I dislike the machines, I dislike the mechanical machines which have also been shown to be rigged. I guess I would be all for complete testing of each machine, and publicly publishing the results. I would certainly be for a paper reciept of a type that cannot be forged given to each voter
Employee badges do not include addresses and usually not a date, either. That’s why they can’t be used and probably shouldn’t.
Brian,
I refuse to be chipped. Take my fingerprints, take my DNA. But don’t chip me.
Just for my own record of not having to wade through the 100 posts since I posted… show of hands, which dems do NOT support showing an ID when voting?
No ID.
I support voters identifying themselves. I also support making sure it doesn’t present a financial or access burden to low-income Americans.
CapnThe Shriver/Jones contest was about 10 years ago.Different AG.
I agree with Tom’s 2:28 pm post on this issue; I also agree with Sol and others urging that the electronic machines be made as secure as possible, with an audit trail available.
Political Mama: “I agree with Brownlee, the machines are what scare me”
Finally, we agree on something .
Data quality of Kansas voter registration/election data is usually so poor that one cannot do statistical analysis after an election to look for voting irregularities at the precinct level. It’s as if the system were designed so there is no way to perform any statistical analysis or external audit checks. BTW, no one noticed the precinct-by-precinct results published online by the Secretary of State for the Aug 2002 Primary Elections did not sum to the published totals for statewide candidates. I reported the problem, but it was ignored.
Some related stories:
Prosecutor urged to examine reports of double votingKansas City Star, September 9, 2004
“Missouri Secretary of State Matt Blunt has asked the Jackson County prosecutor to investigate cases of possible vote fraud reported Sunday in The Kansas City Star.”
“More than 300 people may have voted twice in the same election in Missouri, The Star reported. The newspaper found three persons who acknowledged voting in both Kansas and Missouri in the same election in 2000 or 2002.”…”In Kansas, a spokesman for Secretary of State Ron Thornburgh said Wednesday that Thornburgh would meet today with U.S. Attorney Eric F. Melgren to discuss The Star’s findings. Thornburgh said last week he was ready to seek prosecution if vote fraud was established in the examples cited in the article.”
Requiring ID won’t drive off votersManhattan Mercury, April 11, 2003″If requiring identification is enough to keep people from voting, then our system of government is in more trouble than it seems.” …
“As for the worry expressed by some Democratic legislative leaders that the inconvenience of having to show identification will reduce voter turnout, we don’t buy it - though it will give nonvoters a new excuse. People who want to vote will do so, and people who aren’t interested - despite official efforts that make both registering to vote and voting ridiculously easy - won’t.”
“The exaggerated fear that showing ID will insult voters or be too much trouble should not keep the governor from signing this bill.”
“Data quality of Kansas voter registration/election data is usually so poor that one cannot do statistical analysis after an election to look for voting irregularities at the precinct level.”
Just curious, what type of statistical analysis were you planning on doing?
As a We Blogger who only posts occasionally, I have to admit to mild amusement watching KS Meadowlark tutor the Eagle, not only on how to conduct journalism, but also on what topics may be mentioned for debate, and when. Yesterday, for instance, it apparently was not permissible for Brownlee to bring up Huelskamp’s proposed sweeping reform of Kansas voting measures. To hear Meadowlark shed light from On High, Brownlee was somehow completely out of line to bring the topic up again a week or so after Scholfield was audacious enough to question Topeka in the first place. You get the impression that the indefatigable provider of meaningless statistics more or less expects the Eagle Editorial Board to consult with the aristocracy prior to picking topics for discussion. Did McClatchy hire Meadowlark to oversee the Board and then somehow forget to tell Brownlee? Until this corporate matter is resolved, I wish to notify Meadowlark of the following: your gerrymandering boy Huelskamp is proposing sweeping reform to the state’s election system and the Legislature is still in session.
I’ll allow that individual voter fraud is probably low. But institutional voter fraud is larger than ever. It used to only exist in large metropolitan areas. Now it’s rampant in sparsely-populated states, small urban areas and so on. It’s documented: the dead vote almost on the same level as senior citizens.
But you’d rather not talk about that. It’s easier to divert from facts by picking smaller nits, such as individual fraud. Particularly since I can’t say I ever saw anyone claim individuals were the problem.
“It’s documented: the dead vote almost on the same level as senior citizens.”
Please post that documentation.