Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted April 24, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
- Permalink
- Comments RSS
- Both comments and trackbacks are closed
140 Comments
A good cartoon to start the day off.
http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/042207.jpg
Hope this helps start your day:
“Dear Lord, I thank You for the Grace of being alive this morning; I thank You for the sleep that has refreshed me; I thank You for the chance to make a new beginning.”
“O God, our Heavenly Father, we remember before Thee this day,those who laid down their lives in the service of their country.We remember their courage and devotion to the Sovereign and the country they served.We pray that their labours be not in vain but that their spirit may live on in us and the generations to come.We pray that liberty, truth and love may spread over all the world ’til war shall cease to be.We remember our brethren who are in sickness or distress.We remember the widows and other dependants.We dedicate ourselves to Thy service in the name of those whose memory we revere.We ask this in the name of our Lord.”"Amen”
The following was buried on page 4 Section 1 — as I’ve stated before here — I believe it belongs on Page 1 … it has been edited (deleted parts are indicated by ……..) to remove any comments not talking about the casualties:
Iraq: 9 U.S. soldiers killed by car bombBy HAMID AHMEDAssociated Press Writer
BAGHDAD – …………. a suicide car bomber struck a patrol base northeast of Baghdad and killed nine U.S. soldiers and wounded 20, officials said.
An Iraqi civilian also was wounded in the attack on Task Force Lightning soldiers ……….Of the 20 wounded in the attack on the patrol base, 15 soldiers were treated and returned to duty while five others and the Iraqi were evacuated to a medical facility for further care, the military said.…………….
……..On Feb. 19, insurgents struck a U.S. combat post in Tarmiyah, about 30 miles north of Baghdad, killing two soldiers and wounding 17 in what the military called a “coordinated attack.” It began with a suicide car bombing followed by gunfire on soldiers pinned down in a former Iraqi police station where fuel storage tanks were set ablaze by the blast.American troops are facing increasing danger as they step up their presence in outposts and police stations in the Baghdad area as part of the security crackdown ……..
…………………………A U.S. soldier also was killed Monday in a roadside bombing in Muqdadiyah, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, a predominantly Shiite area that also is in Diyala, the military said in an earlier statement. A British soldier was shot to death while on patrol in the southern city of Basra, officials said.…………………………Elsewhere, at least 48 Iraqis were killed in seven other bombings, …….
Two car bombs exploded Tuesday near the Iranian Embassy in Baghdad, police said. The bombs exploded within two minutes of each other at about 10 a.m. in a public parking lot located about 150 yards from the front of the Iranian Embassy, wounding six civilians ………On Monday, two parked car bombs exploded outside the Iranian Embassy. One bomb exploded near the same public parking lot, killing one civilian and wounding another; the other parked car bomb exploded close to a police patrol near the Iranian Embassy, killing one civilian and wounding two officers, police said.…………………………At least 68 Iraqis were killed or found dead Monday, according to police, including 10 in a suicide car bombing against a police station in the Diyala provincial capital of Baqouba.……………………….
Elsewhere, gunmen stormed a house south of Baghdad at dawn, going room to room and killing seven relatives while they were still in their beds, police and neighbors said. The attack occurred in the mostly Shiite village of Jaara, less than 25 miles south of Baghdad.Also Tuesday, gunmen disguised as Iraqi soldiers raided a remote village near the city of Baqouba on Tuesday, killing six people, wounding 15, and burning five homes, police said. ………………
In a separate attack on Monday, a suicide car bomber struck a police station in Baqouba, killing 10 people and wounding 23, police said. The fatalities included Brig. Gen. Safa al-Tamimi, a city police commander, and the wounded included police Col. Bassem Azzawi.
ken– Excellent argument for why we need more troops. Good job!
Fleet
That was not the point — it’s about the loss of the soldiers, and the others mentioned
I intentionally deleted any mention of anything “political” or not relevent to their sacrifice ….
“O God, our Heavenly Father, we remember before Thee this day,those who laid down their lives in the service of their country.We remember their courage and devotion to the Sovereign and the country they served.We pray that their labours be not in vain but that their spirit may live on in us and the generations to come.We pray that liberty, truth and love may spread over all the world ’til war shall cease to be.We remember our brethren who are in sickness or distress.We remember the widows and other dependants.We dedicate ourselves to Thy service in the name of those whose memory we revere.We ask this in the name of our Lord.”"Amen”
Ken,
There’s not a thing that won’t get politicized here. On one of yesterday’s threads, a state senator’s girlfriend was slimed for political reasons.
That your prayer should be politicized should come as no surprise.
… not surprised, and I don’t accuse Fleet of making it poliitcal, his was a statement of his opinion, I don’t even know if he is right or wrong about the need —- but I felt by adressing me, it sounded as if he might be making a statement for me ….
No right — no wrong — just trying to clarify — thank you both though for bringing attention to our loss and the prayer for them ….
Seems like everything gets politicized here. Kind of silly, when you think about it. Global warming, for example, was not solely caused by one political party, but it sure seems to be the rallying cry for some people, doesn’t it?
I have been leaning towards pulling our troops back and calling it a day in Iraq until I read an essay. It paralleled WWII with Iraq. Kid did a pretty good job with it too. OK, long story short; Japan and Germany were after world domination. It seems the hard line radical Islamists are pretty much headed down that road too.
Iraq has given a focal point to the fight AND kept it in place. I would rather his war be fought ‘over there’ rather than here or in England or France (well, ok, France would be OK :->) But seriously, as these extremists gain traction and momentum, you have to see that they will bring their brand of warfare – suicide bombings, kidnappings, beheadings – anywhere they see fit until they gain the power and control they desire.
Our troops are fighting the good fight. They are laying down their lives ‘over there’ so that we don’t have to fight them here and our allies don’t have to fight them on their soil either.
Pray for victory for our troops. Pray that their sacrifice will quell the uprising of the radical Islamists.
his war = this war
An email from Rocky Mountain Institute:
“This Tuesday night at 8:00 pm Eastern, most PBS stations nationwide will premier a NOVA documentary, Saved by the Sun, which features an interview with our Chairman and Chief Scientist Amory Lovins. The 1-hour documentary poses a burning question about the future of life on Earth: Can we harness the hottest thing in the universe to cool down our warming planet?
Although Amory appears late in the show, he does a great job of tying together all the key concepts. And viewers are also treated to a tour of Amory’s amazing, energy-efficient home, which doubles as RMI office space.”
Relevant links,”Saved By the Sun”http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/solar/
‘RMI’s Headquarters Building’http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid379.php
Sol,
Comparing the war in Iraq with WW2 is so far over the top, you’re probably setting off NORAD radars across the north American continent.
Seriously.
WW2 casualties were over *70 million.* That’s when the global population was 1/3rd what it is now. In modern numbers, that’s the equivalent of 210 million dead. To help put that in perspective, that’s the entire population of the US from the Atlantic Ocean to the far side of the Rocky Mountains.
Is that the kind of fight we want to have? To “win” in Iraq, following your WW2 analogy, we’d have to completely crush the Iraqi citizenry, in pretty much the same way we crushed Germany and Japan. If the US heads down that path, the 210 million dead *will* be true. But who will be the Hitler then?
SolDevVB,
“Pray that their sacrifice will quell the uprising of the radical Islamists.”
You’ve got it BACKWARDS — our presence in Iraq is increasing the “uprising”. It’s recruiting new al-Qaeda members, and providing training.
In short, al-Qaeda wants the U.S. bogged down in an open-ended war in Iraq.
Details at ‘Iraq & the Logic of Timetables’http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html
Wanna know why we can’t get rid of the Illegal Alien problem?
Blue-State Bozos – that’s why.
The mayor of San Francisco wants to make the city a HAVEN for the illegals. He says they will not comply with INS round ups.
Some support him – some are calling for his head on a platter.
What say you?
http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=459207
“The policy dates back to 1989, but Newsom is now barring city employees from assisting federal immigration raids.”
Maybe he opposes them because they terrorize citizens more than they catch criminals.
Maybe he opposes them because it wastes city workers’ time.
We got zero quotes from this article and many quotes from the leader of the vigilante squad.
What’s it prove?
It proves that if you do bad reporting, you get untrustworthy conclusions . . .
Thanks for the link, GSheridan. It’s nice when you post the path to the very facts that prove you’re completely wrong.
First off, Newsome doesn’t call SF a “haven.” That’s someone else’s characterization of Newsome’s position. What Newsome has said is: SF is not going to go on immigration raids with INS officials. There’s no law that says they have to, and it’s not SFPD’s job to do so.
The *real* problem with illegal immigration and the lack of any progress rests with the party that has held absolute power for 6 years. The Federal Government preempts any state or local attempts to control illegal immigration in their jurisdictions, and the party in power refuses to fix the real problem.
zero quotes from the mayor
Capn, you’re right: That’s incredibly bad journalism. There are reporters right here in Kansas that do exactly the same thing – quote your opponent, and “summarize” your remarks in the context of the opposing quote.
I’d name them, but in my public life, I have to talk to them. Argh.
KTAR, the station linked to by GS, is owned by a Salt Lake City media company. They claim to be a:
“values-driven company comprised of values-driven people. Its mission is to Make a Difference in the communities where it operates.”
That explains quite a bit.
Yes, Tom, the mayor used the term, “Sanctuary;” I used the term, “haven.”
Man – that’s a really big difference. I’m so ashamed. Darn, now what will I do?
Capn – you often post anti-conservative stories that don’t employ the use of quotes stating a different opinion.
Is that the best you can come up with? No quotes from the Mayor? Why don’t you find a story with some quotes of his and post it here?
Don’t you want to jump on the difference between “haven” and “sanctuary?” Because, that’s huge, you know.
;)
Someone else posted this here a day or two ago. Try reading it with an OPEN mind before you pass judgment.
Just the facts………………………………SOME OF YOU ARE NOT OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER THAT NEARLY EVERYFAMILY IN AMERICA WAS GROSSLY AFFECTED BY WW II MOST OF YOU DON’TREMEMBER THE RATIONING OF MEAT, SHOES, GASOLINE, AND SUGAR. NO TIRESFOR OUR AUTOMOBILES, AND A SPEED LIMIT OF 35 MILES AN HOUR ON THEROAD, NOT TO MENTION, NO NEW AUTOMOBILES. READ THIS AND THINK ABOUTHOW WE WOULD REACT TO BEING TAKEN OVER BY FOREIGNERS IN 2007.——————————————————————————–This is an EXCELLENT essay . Well thought out and presented.Historical SignificanceSixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all ofEurope and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeatThe Nazis had sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoysbetween England and America taking food and war materials .At that time the US was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, andmost Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941 , and in outrageCongress unanimously declared war on Japan , and the following day onGermany , who had not yet attacked us . It was a dicey thing . We hadfew allies .France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quicklyaligned itself with its German occupiers . Germany was certainly notan ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich inEurope. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owningand controlling all of Asia .Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invadingCanada and Mexico , as launching pads to get into the United Statesover our northern and southern borders, after they finished gainingcontrol of Asia and Europe .America ’s only allies then were England , Ireland , Scotland ,Canada , Australia , and Russia That was about it All of Europe ,from Norway to Italy (except Russia in the East) was already under theNazi heel .The US was certainly not prepared for war. The US had drasticallydowngraded most of its military forces after WW I because of thedepression, so that at the outbreak of WW II, Army units were trainingwith broomsticks because they didn’t have guns, and cars with “tank”painted on the doors because they didn’t have real tanks A huge chunkof our Navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor .Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of$600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England (that was actuallythe property of Belgium ) given by Belgium to England to carry on thewar when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact).Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable tooppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels intorubble the next day just to prove they couldBritain had already been holding out for two years in the face ofstaggering losses and the near decimation of its Royal Air Force inthe Battle of Britain , and was saved from being overrun by Germanyonly because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were arelatively minor threat that could be dealt with later. Hitler, firstturned his attention to Russia , in the late summer of 1940 at a timewhen England was on the verge of collapse.Ironically, Russia saved America ’s butt by putting up a desperatefight for two years, until the US got geared up to begin hammeringaway at GermanyRussia lost something like 24,000,000 people in the sieges ofStalingrad and Moscow alone . . 90% of them from cold andstarvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a 1,000,000 soldiersHad Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus hisentire war effort against the Brits, then America . If that hadhappened, the Nazis could possibly have won the warAll of this has been brought out to illustrate that turning pointsin history are often dicey things. Now, we find ourselves at anotherone of those key moments in history.There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, orwants, and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear,biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the worldThe Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis inKaffiyahs — they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form ofWahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, thenEurope, then the world. To them, all who do not bow to their will ofthinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated . They want tofinish the Holocaust, destroy Israel , and purge the world of JewsThis is their mantra . (goal)There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East — for themost part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having itsInquisition and its Reformation, but it is not yet known which sidewill win — the Inquisitors, or the Reformationists.If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, willcontrol the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US , European, andAsian economies.The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC –not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, butan OPEC dominated by the Jihadis. Do you want gas in your car? Doyou want heating oil next winter? Do you want the dollar to be worthanything? You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition,loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslimswho believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, livein peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th centuryinto the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventuallyfade away. A moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have tofight the Inquisition, i . e . , the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, AlQaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do itsomewhere. We can’t do it everywhere at once. We have created afocal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing . . .. . . in Iraq . Not in New York , not in London , or Paris orBerlin , but in Iraq , where we are doing two important things.(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein wasdirectly involved in the 9/11 terrorist attack or not, it isundisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terroristmovement for decades Saddam is a terrorist! Saddam is, or was, aweapon of mass destruction, responsible for the deaths of probablymore than a 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000 Iranians(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, withIslamic terrorism in Iraq . We have focused the battle. We arekilling bad people, and the ones we get there we won’t have to gethere. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peacefulIraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest ofthe Middle East , and an outpost for a stabilizing American militarypresence in the Middle East for as long as it is neededWW II, the war with the Japanese and German Nazis, really beganwith a “whimper” in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor . Itbegan with the Japanese invasion of China . It was a war for fourteenyears before the US joined it. It officially ended in 1945 — a 17year war — and was followed by another decade of US occupation inGermany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running ontheir own a gain . . . a 27 year war.WW II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately afull year’s GDP — adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trilliondollars. WW II cost America more than 400,000 soldiers killed inaction, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.The Iraq war has, so far, cost the United States about$160,000,000,000, which is roughly what the 9/11 terrorist attack costNew York. It has also cost about 3,000 American lives, which isroughly equivilant to lives that the Jihad killed (within the UnitedStates) in the 9/11 terrorist attack .The cost of not fighting and winning WW II would have beenunimaginably greater — a world dominated by Japanese Imperialism andGerman Nazism .This is not a 60-Minutes TV show, or a 2-hour movie in whicheverything comes out okay . The real world is not like that. It ismessy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. It always has been,and probably always will be .The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamicterrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go awayif we ignore it .If the US can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq ,then we have an ally, like England , in the Middle East , a platform,from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East .The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relativecivility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gatesto conquer the world.The Iraq War is merely another battle in this ancient and neverending war. Now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about toget nuclear weapons. Unless some body prevents them from gettingthem.We have four options:1 We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.2 We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons(which may be as early as next year, if Iran ’s progress on nuclearweapons is what Iran claims it is).3 We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in theMiddle East now; in Europe in the next few years or decades, andultimately in America .OR4 We can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when theJihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad hasdominated France and Germany and possibly most of the rest of Europe .It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expensive, and muchbloodier.If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that yourchildren, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under theMullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes,cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what societyand civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win . Thepacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill themRemember, perspective is every thing, and America ’s schools teachtoo little history for perspective to be clear, especially in theyoung American mind.The Cold War lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wallcame down in 1989; forty-two years!Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon,and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany !World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten yearoccupation, and the US still has troops in Germany and Japan . WorldWar II resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybemore than 100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.The US has taken more than 3,000 killed in action in Iraq . The UStook more than 4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944 ,the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of NaziImperialism.In WW II the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week — for four years. Mostof the individual battles of WW II lost more Americans than the entireIraq war has done so far .The stakes are at least as high . . A world dominated byrepresentative governments with civil rights, human rights, andpersonal freedoms . . or a world dominated by a radical IslamicWahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia(Islamic law) .It’s difficult to understand why the average American does notgrasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty andfreedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.”Peace Activists” always seem to demonstrate here in America ,where it’s safe.Why don’t we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran , Syria ,Iraq , Sudan , North Korea , in the places that really need peaceactivism the most? I’ll tell you why! They would be killed!The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civilrights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc . , but if theJihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights,human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc.Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on theside of their own worst enemy!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Raymond S . Kraft is a writer living in Northern California thathas studied the Middle Eastern culture and religion~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GSheridan:
Go back and read the article. Read every word. Read very carefully. When you’re done reading, please come back and paste in the line from the article that says “Mayor Gavin Newsome said…”
I await the completion of your mission.
Tom – if you don’t like that link, try one of these:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/23/america/NA-GEN-US-San-Francisco-Sanctuary-City.php
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/04/23/state/n132011D41.DTL&type=politics
http://www.kget.com/news/state/story.aspx?content_id=adba68f9-ff48-41f4-80da-6a92cf552300
http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_21276396.shtml
1. Sol–one word: summarize.
2. GS–I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m saying that you can’t make the conclusions you make based on that article.
3. Right on cue, Rush Limbaugh claims that the Virgina Tech killer is a “liberal.”
Watch this video to see what history tells us about mass killers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUE65Lea6kQ
Man, that Rush Limbaugh must be on drugs.
Oh wait . . .
He is.
Tom – tell that to Capn -he’s the one that said “zero quotes from the Mayor,” after all.
GS–one word: summarize.
Personally, I believe if a parallel is going to be made with another war, Iraq could be compared with Vietnam.In a related thought, David Halberstam died Monday in a car crash. He won a pulitzer for covering the Vietnam war. I found it interesting that HE compared Iraq with Vietnam, which seems more logical than comparing Iraq with WWII.
Absolutely, TDT.
We’re fighting a war in Iraq to prevent a war.
It didn’t even make good nonsense.
GSheridan,
At least SF Gate *quotes* him. The article you first posted didn’t, and as someone who has been the target of that kind of public smear in the recent past, I stand by my comments that KTAR’s reporting was terrible.
I also stand by my other comments re: the responsiblity municipalities and states have in enforcing immigration laws. The Republicans had six years to deal with this, and they did *nothing* except maintain the Fed’s preemption powers over the states desire to take action.
BTW, I heard on the radio today that 2000 uniformed soldiers have broken with military law by signing a petition to stop the Iraq war.
Sol, NORAD has moved your comments to DEFCON 3. Your pasted article only reinforces my point: WW2 and Iraq *ARE NOT THE SAME.* If you want to MAKE them the same, be prepared for consequences similar to WW2’s, but most likely, worse.
If you want to keep going down this path of Iraq/Middle East being analogous to WW2, I get to play in those rules. And here’s one for you: Remember that Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor because we’d embargoed and blockaded their Indonesian oil supply? Think that through. The US attacked Iraq in large part because of the risk posed by Islamic extremists to the US oil supply. Japan’s attack was preemptive. It’s a fact.
Think about it.
Dear God
Protect me from your followers.
————
I think any person who doesn’t abide by the laws of the US and is holding a political office should be removed from office.
So I’ll push for removal of the California dude if you will push for the removal of Bush.
—————
Iraq as viewed in terms of Viet Nam. Guerrilla warfare, quagmire. That is where it ends. WWII, the Germans and Japanese desiring world domination. Kind of on those lines. Especially when you think of it in terms of Japan invading China.
The Muslim extremists are everywhere. Look what they are doing in Africa. Do you think that they will stop there? Australia having problems with the extremists. Don’t you see? They won’t stop ANYWHERE!!
The North Vietnamese just wanted their country to be communist. The extremists want the WORLD.
Sol,
The justification for intervention and escalation in Vietnam wasn’t because North Vietnam wanted to be communist. PLEASE!! You *know* the justification was the so-called “Domino Theory,” that Vietnam was just a step on the road to global communist domination.
Tom,The first line was to read it with an open mind. You obviously can’t get past that and are already into your Anti-Bush Anti-War meme, so further discussion with you is irrelevant.
If you want to kick off with details proving your point that you can’t compare the two, then you have already lost the meaning of the essay. Try reading it once, with an OPEN mind and view point.
Notice how the right-wing always accuses the left of “conspiracy theories” and here they are, worried that a rag-tag bunch of rag-heads will take over the world.
What would you people have if not for enemies bent on overthrowing you?
First it was communists, now its terrorists, pretty soon it’ll be the Salvation Army.
Iraq invaded WHO this time?
Um, NOBODY!
It was Al Qaida we wanted, and it’s AlQaida who are still running around in flipping Afghanistan where we should have stayed with all of our troops to begin with.
Hey Capn, Why don’t you take a little trip down to Darfur and spend about a month there. Rag heads taking over the world. Yeah, let me know how that works for you !!!
Capn wrote yesterday:
This is by design.
Government is working hand in glove with big corporations (corporatism) to give citizens the illusion that everything that happens is “natural” and “inevitable.”
The pundits are doing our thinking for us. The markets are allocating our resources. The government is spending our taxes. The media tells us what’s important. (With the corallary that if they don’t tell us, it must not be important.)
We have allowed ourselves to become exactly what corporatism wants–unthinking buying machines focussed entirely on short-term acquisition.
Government has become shielded from its own constituents, in part by the willing idiots who parrot the corporatist line that “we’re a republic, not a democracy.”
In other words, let the powerful run the country. You’re just a citizen. Sit down and shut up
And he says the right wing makes accusations of conspiracy theories? Seems like the “accusations” are pretty well founded…
What happened to all the global warming Deny-asaurs last night at the library talk?
Nobody wanted to get their a$$ kicked?
Yup, all blow . . . no show.
Sol,
You bet I’m “anti-war.” I’m against wars that are pointless and fought by choice against enemies who don’t exist or don’t threaten the United States.
One of the major reasons I registered as a Republican almost 30 years ago was because of the Republican v. Democratic track record of getting the US involved in overseas conflicts. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam – the US allowed itself to get dragged into every one of them on a Democratic administration’s watch.
Don’t misconstrue my comments as anti-military, however. I believe that the best way to defend this nation is to maintain a strong standing military, using the best technology we have. Unpreparedness is one of the reasons the US was attacked in 1941. That’s hopefully a lesson learned.
Too bad we’re not learning the other lessons – that intervening in civil wars leads to endless occupations and increased instability. Look at Korea in this context. Look at Vietnam in this context. Not as quagmires, but as civil wars that the US stepped into the middle of.
Not real smart, IMO.
Collusion of interests is not a conspiracy.
But thanks for playing the game and feel free to try again . . .
When I went to get the paper this morning at the local kwik Shop (I won’t subscribe until the Beagle starts showing our soldiers a little more respect – I miss them about as much as they miss me), it was to get a “Sudhoko and Cryptoquip” fix
My following post is to serve the same purpose of my other posts regarding the Beagles editorial (for lack of a better term) policy of burying most news of soldiers sacrifices —-
The following was buried on page 6 Section B — as I’ve stated before here — I believe it belongs on Page 1 … :
Fort Riley soldier dies in Baghdad
An infantryman from Florida has become the latest Fort Riley soldier killed in Iraq, the Pentagon said Monday.
The Department of Defense said Pfc. Christopher M. North, 21, of Sarasota, Fla., died Saturday from his wounds after his unit was hit with roadside bombs and small arms fire during combat in Baghdad. North became the 95th Fort Riley soldier killed since the war started in 2003.
North was assigned to 1st Battalion, 4th Cavalry of the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division.
O God, our Heavenly Father, we remember before Thee this day,those who laid down their lives in the service of their country.We remember their courage and devotion to the Sovereign and the country they served.We pray that their labours be not in vain but that their spirit may live on in us and the generations to come.We pray that liberty, truth and love may spread over all the world ’til war shall cease to be.We remember our brethren who are in sickness or distress.We remember the widows and other dependants.We dedicate ourselves to Thy service in the name of those whose memory we revere.We ask this in the name of our Lord.” “Amen”
SolDevVB,
Do YOU have an open mind? Can YOU think logically?
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html“A date certain for American withdrawal also would put non-Iraqi al-Qaeda operatives – who number only an estimated five percent of the armed insurgency – in a tighter fix.Without the United States to point to, al-Qaeda would find it tougher to recruit jihadists and would likely face military pressure from Iraqi nationalists fed up with foreign interference.
That is why al-Qaeda leaders view Bush’s open-ended war in Iraq as crucial to their long-range plans for spreading their radical ideology throughout the Muslim world. As “Atiyah,” one of Osama bin Laden’s top lieutenants, explained in a Dec. 11, 2005, letter, “prolonging the war is in our interest.” ”
Read bottom of page 16, top of 17 at West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center,http://www.ctc.usma.edu/harmony/CTC-AtiyahLetter.pdf
I read these types of letters from the front everyday. A radio station was mentioned as having a petetion signed by 2000 soldiers. Nothing about what station or where this petetion was. Just another view from the New York Post. These are same things I hear from my Air Force neighbors who have been over there multiple times.
April 24, 2007 — WASHINGTON – A tough U.S. Marine stationed in one of the most hostile areas of Iraq has a message for Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid: “We need to stay here and help rebuild.”
In raw and emotional language from the bloody front lines, Cpl. Tyler Rock, of the 1st Battalion, 6th Marines, skewered Reid for being far removed from the patriotism and progress in Iraq.
“We could leave this place and say we are sorry to the terrorists. And then we could wait for 3,000 more American civilians to die before we say, ‘Hey, that’s not nice’ again.”
“And the sad thing is after we WIN this war. People like [Reid] will say he was there for us the whole time.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/04242007/news/worldnews/white_flag_harry_furor_worldnews_geoff_earle__post_correspondent.htm
And if we walk away from this war and say to the world ‘We lost’ won’t that just embolden al-Qaeda? Won’t that tell them that we are ineffective and that further attacks cannot be retaliated against?
If we stay and get Iraq back on its feet, won’t that be defeating terrorism? Not only defeating terrorism, but defeating it on its OWN TURF. How will the al-Qaeda recruiting be after that?
Sol,
You keep conflating Al Qaeda with Iraq. They aren’t the same. But earlier you referred to people in that part of the world as ‘rag heads,’ so maybe in your mind, they are all the same.
Put down Dick Cheney’s talking points and back slowly away. They’ve been discredited *by Bush’s own administration* time and time again.
“Won’t that tell them that we are ineffective and that further attacks cannot be retaliated against?”
No, it will scare them because we might wisely decide to turn our resources, along with international cooperation, against them. Us pulling out of Iraq they will try to cast as a victory, but it would be their serious loss, and they know it.
Steven,If the freakin WIND changes direction they claim victory, and their bubble headed followers believe it. I WISH what you wrote were true, I just can’t hang my hat on it.
IMO, we have not had another attack on our soil because of the war we are fighting THERE and to second your point, the resources we have poured into intel. If we could get Iraq stable and pour more resources into intel, then yes, I agree that we would be more productive. But giving these whack job wahabbiests (sp?) a tangible victory like the US pulling out…..
Sol,
The US didn’t go to war in Iraq after the first World Trade Center bombing, and except for Timothy McVeigh’s and Eric Rudolph’s attacks, there were no terrorist attacks on US soil until 2001.
That’s 8 1/2 years. No war in Iraq. There’s no correlation here, Sol. None.
Pat Tillman, Jessica Lynch; used for recruiting, diversion of attention from negative news, or both?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/04/24/tillman.hearing/index.html
Exactly, Tom.
Yes, exactly Tom. There was no retaliation. What, we shot a missile at them? So you prove my point. Once they found out that they could get away with it, you get 9/11. Should we then wait for something even more cataclysmic? How would a nuclear strike grab you? Would that be cataclysmic enough for you?
Sol,
What I’m saying is this: Al Qaeda is planning their next attack on the US *regardless* of anything we do or don’t do in Iraq.
All our adventure in Iraq has accomplished is the creation of yet another failed state in southwest Asia.
Another attack will come. Iraq is meaningless in the context of that attack.
Tom:
“One of the major reasons I registered as a Republican almost 30 years ago was because of the Republican v. Democratic track record of getting the US involved in overseas conflicts. WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam – the US allowed itself to get dragged into every one of them on a Democratic administration’s watch.”
I appreciate your comment about your rational for registering as a Republican (some may deny it here — but there are and were good honorable well serving Republicans I’d say more than not) — it’s one of the things (war) that keeps me an independent, I don’t know which side to believe most of the time and I don’t want them to “give” me my opinion, after 20 yrs in the military, I was happy to realize I actually had opinions (tongue in cheek) — another is growing up in Chicago under the old man Daley regime …
Not an expert on history, but my take is the 2 WW’s were worth it, and the other the jury is still out. In the case of the 2 WW’s, would a Republican admin acted differently?
See, I think wars, no matter who calls for them, are a consequence of everything that has occurred before them — not just dem / gop admins / policies, also world events etc …… i.e. unfair to blame the gop for the war on terror — it is a consequence of events that have occurred over several decades, maybe centuries … so which ever party is in charge, is reacting to history?
As I have been reading posts today I realize one very important stat is missing.
The extremists represent approximately 10% of all Muslims. That being said, would it not better serve us to engage the other 90%? You cannot compare this to other wars due to this. Germany had a very large army and so did the Communist Vietnamese.
It will take alot more than the 10% of extremists to dominate the world. Should we choose to engage the 90% and deal with their issues then that 90% will isolate the extremists and provide some assistance in keeping them quiet.
However, our current strategy of trying to kill the extremists will only create more and isolate the 90%. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
Tom, give this a read…
http://www.meib.org/articles/0106_ir1.htm
“But giving these whack job wahabbiests (sp?) a tangible victory like the US pulling out…..”
Sol,I have read various accounts of how many we are fighting in Iraq are sympathetic or involved with Al Qaeda. The most common estimate I recall seeing is 5% of the insurgents. So, one could seriously raise the question if we are really fighting those who attacked us on 9/11.
A friend of mine says that someone had to pay for 9/11 and if no one else was readily available, Saddam was as good a candidate for receiving our anger as anybody. I am not completely sure I agree with him, but his argument seems more honest to me than the not-so-accurate “fight-them-there-rather-than-here” statement.
IMHO, saying that we are waging a war against terror, that we invaded a muslim country, and that we can’t seem to get out of Iraq has done more for Al Qaeda’s cause and recruitment than anything else we could have done.
I respect your opinion and it is obvioulsy okay for you to disagree with me. I think most people in the U.S. hold your or a similar opinion. I think the numbers holding your view are diminishing, though.
In WWII we sent 10 MILLION men to war. The nation then had 140 million population, of whom about 30 million men were between the ages of 17 and 30. So about 1 out of every 3 prime-fighting-age men became warriors. Women became war-industry workers, because there weren’t enough men at home to fill the need.
We’ve sent approximately 200,000 men to Iraq. Out of a national population of 300 million, and a fighting-age male population of some 20 million (we have fewer now than then because families have far fewer children than in the old days).
Let’s see, 1 out of 3 in WWII, versus 1 out of 100 in Iraq. Some of you want to talk about committing ourselves to victory. Try doing some basic math first.
In WWII, there were substantial numbers of draft deferments granted for various reasons, not the least of which was the need to have a manufacturing and food-production infrastructure here that could support our troops over there.
It was not until Vietnam that college-attendance and simple marriage (used by Dick Cheney, for example) provided deferments. Millions of “smart” young men, the children of a middle-class that didn’t exist in 1941, decided they weren’t interested in fighting. Our nation’s leaders decided to let our young “best and brightest” pass on this adventure.
If you want to win a war of “global strategic importance” you can’t do it by conscripting only 1% of the fighting-age population. Would 33% do it? I don’t know, but it would vastly increase our fighting forces, and therefore increase the odds of success. We could convert 30% of our industrial production to fight the war.
Gee, how come the Republicans didn’t do this when they had the presidency and control of both houses of Congress? You see there is a glaring incongruity between the “We must fight to protect (Western) civilization” propaganda, and the resources that Repubs have actually committed, which are far less than we committed in Vietnam.
On the “history of WWII” post, Ho Chi Minh and Mao-Tse Tung, not to mention Joseph Stalin, fought with us, not against us. How strange. Communists were our allies. Then they became America’s enemies. Then relations thawed. Now China and Vietnam harbor American factories. China is shrewdly issuing joint-ownership contracts, and learning how to do mass manufacturing. One of GM’s Chinese partners, having fed itself at the American knowledge trough, is building its own cars in competition against its American partner. Their aviation industry is working towards the same ultimate goal.
I have said before that by 2030, Wichita will likely no longer be building aircraft, because China will have a massive comparative advantage, based on an engineering corps that works for less money, and a young-vs.-old aircraft-assembly corps.
What is our comunity leaders’ strategic plan to develop an after-aviation 21st century economy? I don’t think they have one. They approved an arena. They could have supported the proposed charter math-and-science school for our most-talented youngsters, and WSU’s development of world-econony-class science and engineering research-and-education infrastructure. These were “above my pay grade”, apparently. They have subjected Wichita to the tyranny of low expectations.
“All our adventure in Iraq has accomplished is the creation of yet another failed state in southwest Asia.”
A failed state in the middle of the oil producing part of the world. A failed state that will likely have political consequences for Iraq’s neighbors and the price of oil – not good consequences on either account.
StevenTake a look at the article I linked to. It is about the first trade center bombing, but it is relevant to this topic.
I don’t think we are fighting much al-qaeda force directly, but I do feel (no links or facts, just my opinion) that we are tying up resources for them in Iraq.
As for what your friend said, that sounds about right. I also believe we did the right thing by overthrowing him. The timing is amiss for me though. We should have finished up in Afghanistan first.
Mark,
Let me start by saying I don’t support how Bush handled this war. When we started this war, we were there to overthrow Saddam. We were fighting conventional forces. We had over kill. We really kicked their butts with a quickness. This whole thing went to hell with the insurgency. That, Bush should have anticipated ad planned for with more ‘policing’ forces.
“What is our comunity leaders’ strategic plan to develop an after-aviation 21st century economy? I don’t think they have one. They approved an arena. They could have supported the proposed charter math-and-science school for our most-talented youngsters, and WSU’s development of world-econony-class science and engineering research-and-education infrastructure. These were “above my pay grade”, apparently. They have subjected Wichita to the tyranny of low expectations.”
Dr. Schooley, I could not agree more.
I’ve been trying to tell that to the kids that I am exposed to. China is taking the low end jobs from America – the manufacturing jobs. They are taking that money and pouring it into their future – the children. They are extremely math and science oriented – generating engineers. The kids today, most of them don’t care about school or doing well. The educators are tired of being hamstrung by the parent’s of the children and the system; making school easier and easier while kids learn less and less.
While we bask in the glory of what our predecessors bequeathed us with, China is firing up its furnaces to overthrow us as we are becoming weaker and less educated.
Sol,
I read that “article,” twice. It’s not really an article, though, as much as it is an opinion piece. There’s very little in the way of facts; most of what’s there is speculation. In the “Evidence Against Iraq” section, she uses IF far too many times for any kind of credibility.
I backtracked a bit on the author. It seems she has a long reputation as one who was beating the drums for war against Iraq for a very, very long time.
Short version: I’m not buying into a conspiracy theory.
Yeah those phone records and all. MUST be a conspiracy.
Sol,
If we follow the so-called “evidence” against Iraq in 1993, then let’s apply those same rules to 2001. The hijackers carried Saudi, Kuwaiti, and Egyptian passports. Following your logic, WHY THE HELL DID WE ATTACK IRAQ??
Tom,OK… why would you go by passports alone? The article, with all those pesky references at the bottom, points the first bombing to the probability of Iraqi intelligence.
This article was written in JUNE of 2001. So she is NOT going on the band wagon, this was before the plane attacks.
So there have been ties with Iraq and terrorism on US soil. I didn’t choose who we went after and when, I am pointing out that there ARE ties to attacks on the US and Iraq.
Sol,
Oh my. I didn’t say she was getting on the bandwagon. I said she was the one beating the drums. Don’t let your frustration with this argument interfere with your reading comprehension.
Are you trying to say that no one was advocating war with Iraq prior to 9/11??? She was one of the primary proponents!! Holy cow!!
Investigation after investigation has concluded that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Stop conflating the two.
The Pentagon disagrees with you, SolDevVB – the report released a month ago strongly states that there was no operational connection between Saddam Hussein and radical Islamist groups.
Hussein was a secular Muslim, the worst possible crime in the view of a fundamentalist Muslim.
OK then let’s talk about the first bombing and the ties to Iraq…
What ties? Your own Pentagon disagrees with you sir. Should we believe the Pentagon or a reporter that is drawing a conclusion from suspect sources? All of the US intelligence organizations conclude that Saddam did not have ties to radical Muslim organizations, with the sole exception of Dick Cheney.
EVEN Bush has admited that there was no connection, so why debate the point?
If you take the ties to Iraq from the first bombing, then add the idea of WMD in Iraq, you get a war in Iraq. Was it right to go in? Tough call, but Bush had the backing of Congress and a few allies.
We are there now. Al-qaeda is there now – even as a small percentage. We are tying up al-qaeda resources THERE. Iran is in Iraq, Saudi is in Iraq, Israel is in Iraq, and Syria is in Iraq. How can we leave? Yes it is a civil war. Yes there are terrorists there. Why would we leave them to their own? We stirred up a hornets’ nest and then leave. Doesn’t sound like it would have a positive impact.
The standard response from the administration is “we are fighting them there so we don’t have to fight them here” and “if we leave Iraq they will follow us here.”
BS
Why would they bother to fight us there where we have 150,000 armed soldiers and millions of tons of military equipment when they could just fly into Chicago or LA or Atlanta or Wichita and blow us all up? They could kill a whole lot more of us here with little repercussion than they can in Iraq.
Why don’t they? Because there are truly very few of them and they have little resources. The whole Iraq – terrorist connection is a Bush fabrication.
Al Qaeda doesn’t have a horse in the race in Iraq, that is why they are less than 5% of the insurgency. The rest of the opposition to the US is Iraqi’s that are pissed off at the US for the occupation.
We aren’t tying up anything related to terrorism in Iraq – we are just providing a training base for them.
Bob,Point taken. OK so leave terrorism out for a minute. What you have left seems to be secular violence on top of the Iraqis being pissed that we are there.
If we pull out, what are the chances of the stronger sect using genocide? Or the Turks kicking off on the Kurds?
No one has a crystal ball, but what would be left in the vacuum after the Americans leave?
Thats should be part of the discussion Sol…why did we create the vacuum in the first place? If we would allow the 90% of Muslims to prosper then they would quite the 10% which make up extremists groups. Most Iraqis do not support the insurgency. However, as long as we are there we give the insurgency credibility. Why not leave and make turn the pressure up on the insurgents to protect the majority? Try to push the idea of democracy from a distance and let things take there course. It really doesnt matter when we leave, the insurgents will claim victory and civil war will ensue. Whether that day is today or 10 yrs from now.
When – not if – the US pulls out of Iraq, it will be the region’s other nations problem. As it should have been all along.
OK Mike, point taken.
Civil war will erupt. We caused that by taking the tyrant out of power that kept it from getting this out of hand. So we take no responsibility for that and just walk away?
What if we pulled back but stayed close enough to go in if we had to? What would be the trigger for ‘having to’?
As this civil war rages and more of the nations surrounding Iraq get involved, what do we do then? Are you of the guild that ‘it isn’t our problem’?
Arena Debate Continued:
Heartman Arena will cost 20 Million on the top end.Downtown Arena will cost 201 Million with costs probably still going to go up
Heartman’s Arena will seat 6,500Downtown Arena will seat 15,000 basketball, a few more for concert
Heartman’s arena includes parkingDowntown Arena doesn’t
Heartman’s arena has a full time tenantDowntown Arena doesn’t
Downtown Arena costs 10 Times what Heartman’s arena costs for only 3 Times the seating capacity.
So far, I still don’t see a reason to have the downtown arena. I know there are talks to host the Thunder at Heartmans arena and for their sake, I hope they do.
Dr. Tolle, I appreciate your support, because everybody here respects you as a voice of wisdom. I’m calling you Dr. Tolle, here because you have a Juris Doctor degree, and Doctor is a Latin word that means teacher. And I think the vast majority of WE Blog’s readers see you as such. We need more teachers to be leaders.
SolI would be receptive to the pull back theory that you present. What would constitute a “trigger” to go back in? That is a question that I am not wise enough to answer. However, your theory is one that should be discussed. “Stay the course” is essentially what we are doing now by surging an additional 20k troops. If you are going to surge then put enough boots on the ground to truly impact the situation. Put another 100k on the ground. That would give us the chance to secure the country long enough to begin rebuilding their infastructure. To your last question, if we found solid evidence that other countries were supplying one side or the other then there would have to be some type of consequence.
You cannot beat a determined insurgency with brute force. WW2 has been bandied about here today, so I’m going to grab a couple of examples: The sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad. Stalingrad was bombed into rubble, and then the rubble was bombed into smaller rubble, and the residents kept fighting.
The only way to militarily defeat an insurgency is to so thoroughly crush the civilian population that they have no hope left. Is that what kind of nation we are? Is that what we’re willing to do to “win” in Iraq?
I hope not.
TonyI beg to differ with you on this but the Thunder is committed to going downtown. Their GM has stated several times that he is not interested in the Park City arena. With good cause I may add. The Thunder averages 3500 fans per game and that number is rising. Why would they want a cap on the number of seats that they can sell? Mr Hartman owns the Wichita Wild and sees owning the venue that they play in as a smart business decision. I personally think that he is making a big mistake. There has been 4 indoor football teams in the community over the last 7 years and none of them have had any success. People that live in the city get tired of driving all the way to Park City for entertainment. I wish him all the best but he will not be able to compete with the downtown arena. He can compete with the Cotillion for concerts and have the Wild play there for 3 months out of the year. Outside of that his building will be empty most of the time.
Mike,A little pipe dream I shared here a few months ago. Take all the forces we have in theater now and move them to the far north. Move them southward clearing village after village, town after town enforce. Massive amounts of American troops pulling through the cities.
As we leave a ’safe’ city, we leave in place enough IRAQIS to keep the peace. If they fail, we can actually say, we held up our end, you have to hold up yours.
Then we pull out of the country and stage in Afghanistan or Saudi. The wait for that trigger, should it arrive. I think to forward that, let whatever trigger event happen, then wait a week or a month before we move in. Let them know we are not 911 dial-a-troop.
We need to get things wrapped up in the ‘forgotten war’ of Afghanistan as well.
The American people need to find out what the Iraqi oil income-distribution formula is. A couple months ago, somebody on C-SPAN said the American hegemonists were demanding 75%. The Democratic-led Congress needs to enlighten us.
For example, if Americans said to Iraqis, “We need a cost-plus-15% oil extraction deal, over the next 10 years to expand your prodution, and after that, you own the resource, and sell it on the open market,” is their an open-market “Republican” or “Liberatarian” who would object to that?
So what We the People need is information. About the Iraqi-oil income-distribution formula that our administration is trying to impose.
Mark
“Let’s see, 1 out of 3 in WWII, versus 1 out of 100 in Iraq. Some of you want to talk about committing ourselves to victory.”
Good point — I’ve believed that it has been wrong from the beginning of the War on Terror to only ask us to buy yellow magnets for our cars (TIC) and not actually engage the entire population in the fight in some substantive fashion, certainly a fast forward to a viable energy policy would help too (where is that any way?)
… they attacked all of us —— not just the soldiers, sailors, airmen and their families ……
SolI appreciate your insight. Finally someone with a constructive opinion. Not partisan based bs. Why our leaders cannot put a plan like this together is incredible to me.
MarkRemember what Paul Wolfowitz said about the Iraqi oil revenue. He said that they can produce 75-100 billion dollars. He then stated that it could be used to finance the war. Be careful what you ask for from Washington. It will be skewed.
Sol I appreciate all the thought you have put into this. I think those on this blog that have discounted the power and scope of the terrorists have vastly underestimated them. Look at the number of terrorists attacks and the number of countries involved.
I fear our head in the sand apathy will be our downfall. When you under estimate the enemy you are doomed. I have said before that radical muslims are much more numerous than we are led to believe. They are biding their time. Check the hotspots in the world today and look for the muslim influence. It’s there.
Sometimes we need to get out of our comfort zones and look at the world as it is and not as we wish it were. I hear people making absolute statements like they are truths to bolster their opinion that we should pull out of Iraq.
On the industrial questions raised by Dr. Schooley, I think we have set back and let Asia have their way for far to long. As we speak Intel is building it’s largest factory yet in China and not the US, it’s second largest is in Ireland. The south Korea government has just poured a lot of money into the chip industry to subsidize production until they take away our hold on what is left of that precarious industry. We saw the European Union put billions into the aircraft industry so Airbus could take away market share and capture the top position.
It isn’t all bleak but we do need to wake up. Face facts as they are not as we wish they were. We need to leave a better legacy to our children. NAFTA, CAFTA, Free Trade agreements, the Kyoto agreement – all of these weaken us as a producer. There are answers but we need to have the presure on our best and brightest to find them now.
This has been a nice thread to read today. I’m impressed by both sides. It was also enlightening, and will give me something to use when debating with my friend (yes, I only have one I can have an intelligent debate over politics with).
NAFTA was negotiated by George H W Bush. Kyoto has not even been proposed for ratification. GWB wants to have fast track Free Trade negotiation authority.
Blame it on the Republicans.
Hi grm
Good post
“I think we have set back and let Asia have their way for far to long.”
I would think it’s as much corporate America as the Asians (Mexicans, etc) having their way — it seems those programs benefit them the most ?
There does need to be a balance some where.
If it is wages / salaries that seem to be causing the exodus of jobs — that would be a good start on a national discussion, but that would mean all wages and salaries (CEO’s etc…) ?
Have y’all noticed the drastic change in America over the past 20 years? Businesses work only for the stock holders. It used to be about building a name, standing behind that name, and providing the best product the company could.
Anymore it seems like the companies want to get away with a little as possible, selling it for as much as possible, and disregarding the customer and the name behind the product.
Everyone seems to be selling short the future and sacrificing everything for the quick buck.
Damn shame. Made In America used to MEAN something. Now it is almost impossible to find.
“…selling it for as much as possible, and disregarding the customer and the name behind the product.”
What’s wrong with selling a product for as much as possible?How long do you think a company would last if the company disregarded the customer?
Are you saying the free market system doesn’t work?What system, pray tell, would you prefer?
Bob when you actually start to read the post with the idea that you could learn something you will indeed be able to contribute something worthwhile.
I mentioned neither party for a reason. This is an American problem. Not a political one.
Ken there are many things we could be doing today but some would be very painful. We have become accoustomed to a lifestyle that is being severly erodded by the very things that have allowed us to prosper.
The chip industry employs some of our brightest engineers. Those jobs are swiftly going away and with them the many peripheral jobs they support.
We need to wake up.
At the age of 57 I went back to school to complete my degree. In my econ class I had to research a company previously on the fortune 500 that was in financial trouble.
I choose Goodyear. They had always been a major player in the tire industry until recently. Their stock was then trading at junk bond prices. I took one product that they were producing in their Akron plant. With benefits, wages, overhead added it cost $37 to build a tire they could sell for $27. This was their bottom of the line tire. I took the same tire and tracked it in their Mexico City plant. Even with the added cost of transport they were building that tire for less than $14.
I am in no way advocating cheap labor but I am saying we have to do something about this disparity now. Buy American worked for a while but doesn’t seem to be doing the job now.
Unfortunately I don’t have the answer.
“Bob when you actually start to read”
Obviously there is no reason to discuss anything with you. I learned to read at the age of four. Gotta problem with that?
Yup, Kgrm, and how much did that Mexican tire cost?
Answer: the same as the American tire, because all the profit is going to top management and shareholders and none of it is going to labor.
What’s the answer? The answer is market protection, obviously. Otherwise, it’s a race to the bottom, and the vast majority of Americans are going to lose.
Look at what Europe has done, and do that.
The Euro is way up and the dollar is way down.
That’s cause they have a plan and we have Bush.
Hey, F-wood!
This one’s for you:
Media Advisory: Kucinich to move forward with Impeachment News Conference
Washington, Apr 24 -
The news conference will be
Tuesday, April 24, 2007 at 5 p.m. on the Cannon Terrace, intersection of Independence and New Jersey Avenue
http://kucinich.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=63379
Also, Kgrm, your comment doesn’t explain why Japanese car makers which have the highest labor costs in the world can make cars here in the US and still eat GM’s lunch.
HEY WEBLOG EDITORS!
How about a thread on the Tillman-Lynch hearing going on right now?
You know, the one that shows the American people how Bush’s team lies and distorts the news for its own purposes?
How Lady-Rambo Lynch fired her weapon until the barrel melted down and was taken prisoner with dead Iraqis piled around her? (Total fabrication)
How she was “rescued” in a video-taped (that is, staged) rescue which involved gun-fire and kicking down doors (wholly unnecessary because the staff was not holding Lady Rambo hostage nor were insurgents threatening anyone at the time)?
How Tillman’s family didn’t know the truth–he was killed by American troops–until five months after his death?
Bob I never inferred that you couldn’t read but that you sometimes don’t read an entire post and base your response on selective text.
“Bob when you actually start to read the post with the idea that you could learn something you will indeed be able to contribute something worthwhile.”
You were a little selective in your editing.
Cap I can only draw from the facts presented that the tire costing less to manufacture was subsidizing the more expensive manf. of the American made tire.
I know many CEO make obsense amounts of money. But when you look at this and your first thought is that the execs are paid to much you are missing the point.
Cap you put the EU up as something we should be emulating. I could show you fact by fact why they are not doing well. The following is the best example of this.
“UnemploymentThe Unemployment rate in the European Union in February 2007 was 7.5%, however the rate varies by member state, the lowest rates are in Denmark (3,2%), the Netherlands (3,6%), Estonia (4,2%) and Ireland (4,4%), the highets rates are in Greece (8,7%), Slovakia (11,0%) and Poland (12,6%), this compares with 4.1% in Japan and 4.7% in the United States”
We might learn a few things from them but by and large our economy is the most profitable when you compare apples to apples.
As you can see when looking at the whole picture, cheap labor and a flat tax are two things mentioned when looking at GDP growth.
“Current forecasts see the Union’s economy achieving growth of 2.3% during 2006 [6]. The ten new member states of Eastern Europe have enjoyed a higher average percentage growth rate than their Western European counterparts. Notably the Baltic states have achieved massive GDP growth, with Latvia topping 8.5%, close to China, the world leader at 9% on average for the past 25 years. Reasons for this massive growth include government commitments to stable monetary policy, export-oriented trade policies, low flat-tax rates and the utilisation of relatively cheap labour.
“The current map of EU growth is one of huge regional variation, with the larger economies suffering from stagnant growth and the new nations enjoying sustained, robust economic growth.
Although EU25 GDP is on the increase, the percentage of Gross world product is decreasing due to the emergence of economic powers such as China, India and Brazil. In the medium to long term, the EU will be looking to increase GDP growth in the central European economies such as France, Germany and Italy and stabilise growth in the new Eastern European states to ensure sustained economic prosper.”
Economic performance varies from state to state. The Growth and Stability Pact governs fiscal policy with the European Union. It applies to all member states, with specific rules which apply to the eurozone members that stipulate that each state’s deficit must not exceed 3% of GDP and its public debt must not exceed 60% of GDP. However, many larger members have consistently run deficits substantially in excess of 3%, and the eurozone as a whole has a debt percentage exceeding 60% (see below).”
As you can see they to have a problem with deficits and overspending even with checks in place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union#Unemployment
On the Japan question I don’t have the answer but did find something interesting while looking. In 1994 Japan already 31 plants in Mexico where they could take advantage of the lower labor cost. I can only assume that if the parts cost you less you can sell the car for less.
Dr. Schooley, thank you for the compliment.
A story (perhaps apochryphal) told us as 1-Ls by a professor as to why the designation of the initial law degree was changed from LL.B (Bachelor of Laws) to J.D. (Juris Doctor). It seems that under the federal Civil Service rules one holding a Bachelor’s Degree entered into the federal service at pay grade GS-5; one who entered with a doctorate at GS-11 (as I recall); thus, under federal civil service regs, attorneys were employed at the same level as one with a B.A. or B.S., notwithstanding the additional three-year post-Baccalaureate education. The government found itself short of attorneys, and the J.D. degree was born.
Here’s a good one:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-mcgovern24apr24,0,4084076.story?coll=la-opinion-center
ksgrm,
“…the Kyoto agreement – all of these weaken us as a producer.”
Cutting GHG’s can cut the amount of energy needed, lower utility costs, lower product cost, and increase market share, and/or profit.
Note WalMart’s redesign of buildings, to save 30% to 50% of energy needed.
Higher efficiency, and new technologies to cut carbon and other GHG’s will be huge market in the future.
Denmark took the lead in wind turbines.Japan will be producing hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles soon… while Detroit focuses on low mpg SUV’s and PU’s.
Note that the same groups who deny human-caused GW also claim Kyoto will destroy our economy — fossil-fuel industries, and right-wingers.
Again, PBS’s NOVA tonite:”The 1-hour documentary poses a burning question about the future of life on Earth: Can we harness the hottest thing in the universe to cool down our warming planet?
More info, links upthread,http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/open_thread_23.html#comment-67446394
Cosmos I did’t say nor did I imply that Kyoto is bad. What I have said in the past is that if China, the biggest abuser of our environment right now isn’t affected by this agreement then our economy will take another hit.
We need to play catchup and fast but we also need to fast the facts that we are met by some on the extreme left that are constantly putting roadblocks in front of progress.
In the name of environmentalism they have blocked wind farms, a clean renewable fuel. Blameing it on so called right wingers is why we are doing very little to remedy real problems.
When we can put our differences behind us and move forward we might be able to accomplish something. Until then it will be JPAU and we can pat ourselves on the back and say “I won that round” and all around us the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
ksgrm,
Your claims re Kyoto and China don’t seem to match reality. Note that 471 mayors, representing over 63 million Americans have accepted the Mayors Climate Protection Agreement, and also California’s actions.
Wind farms have been correctly blocked, when they endangered birds or marine life.
The Rev. Moon’s Washington Times, various groups like CEI, Sen. Inhofe, etc DO deserve to be blamed for the confusion and delay they have caused. And continue to cause.
cosmos are you green? What do you do to reduce your carbon footprint?
I’ve asked this question NUMEROUS times but I have yet to get an answer.
If Al Quida showed up on Saddams doorstep and said they wanted to set up terrorist training camps and use some of the Oil For Food debacle money for terrorist activity to kill Americans. What would Saddams response have been.
Cosmos doesn’t have to be green, he is allowed to be a hypocrite. And he still won’t relate what his education level is and if it is in science.
I give mine and he chickens out. I guess that’s why people like Cosmos aren’t soldiers.
Gene,
Who cares, Saddam is dead.
Here’s my next question. If we had proof that Iran provided a nuke to some Jihad group and it was detonated in the U.S. Iran even takes responsibility.
We go in and start bombing Iran. Would the Muslims of Iraq, Lybia, Jordan, Syria, Eqypt think that we had the right or would they join with their Muslim brothers in the fight against the Great Satan Infidel?
Thats not the question Repub.
I have heard that Saddam HATED Al Quida and OBL HATED Saddam. I’m just having trouble believing that if Al Quida had come to Saddam after getting kicked out of Afghanistan, and told Saddam they wanted to kill Americans, could they train in his country, that Saddam would have said NO.
It’s a hypothetical…It is well known that Saddam didn’t like any terrorist that didn’t do his bidding.
Yes America, the Great Satan state of Infidels…hoorah, salute the crescent flag.
Gene! The Great Satan is the Republican Party, so says the leftist Democrats (default: Party of God) on this blog.
So Repub, your response to the question is that Saddam would NOT have let Al Quida have training camps or given monetary support. Is that correct?
And Joe, do you have an answer or opinion on the second question?
“Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family’s unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives.
In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: “When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don’t believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more — that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don’t know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough.”
Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans’ religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, “I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system [by the Tillmans]. So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know.”http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=tillmanpart1
This guy should be run out on a rail. Completely inappropriate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda
For weather fans, The Weather Channel has a great new interactive radar that lets you customize your views, zoom in and out etc.. Pretty cool.
What’s your point Joe?
Nicki, thanks for that report. I’m utterly disgusted at that remark. I hope he’s demoted fast.
Thanks Joe! Note NO EVIDENCE! (from Joe’s link)
“2006 report of Phase II of its investigation into prewar intelligence reports concluded that there was no evidence of Saddam Hussein ties to al-Qaeda.[4] Critics of the Bush Administration have said Bush was intentionally building a case for war with Iraq without regard to factual evidence”
ksgrm – you are correct that China MUST be at the table on reducing carbon emissions. WE, however, need to take the lead – WE have the technology. As the leader of the world, which we are, we should be leading. AND, our carbon output is greater than China’s, even though their population is about 4 times ours.
In other words, we need to be doing both.
As for wind, I cannot speak for other areas, however I know the Kansas Sierra Club supports wind installation. I have seen wonderful pictures of wind farms going up in Kansas at Sierra Club meetings.
I would add to wind and solar NUCLEAR. Many other environmentalists are following suit; particularly those, like me, who also have science background. Some of the more ‘purist’ environmentalists get especially perturbed with me for that. Oh well, they’ll get over it!
“I’ve asked this question NUMEROUS times but I have yet to get an answer.If Al Quida showed up on Saddams doorstep and said they wanted to set up terrorist training camps and use some of the Oil For Food debacle money for terrorist activity to kill Americans. What would Saddams response have been.”
Gene, from capture documents it was learned that Saddam saw OBL and Al-Qaeda as more of a threat to him then he did the United States. Many point to AL-Zakawa (sorry I know I misspelled his name) who claimed to be the leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq. Was there before the invasion but was not there on behave of Al-Qaeda. He was actually hiding out there and was not a force until after the invasion. At first Bin Laden disavowed him as part of Al-Qaeda. But once Al-Zakawa started gaining in notice then finally OBL finally adopted him into Al-Qaeda.
But the short answer is that Saddam would have been wary of having a organized group of Al-Qaeda within Iraq. Since OBL had already said he intended to overthrow Saddam when he got around to it.
Thanks writerdog.
Any comments on my second question?
Gene, the thing one has to remember about Al Qaeda is that it is Cell based. It is not one big organization like what we saw that came of Afghanistan.
There are no Franchises like McDonalds sold for Al Qaeda. A group of Muslims who follow the teachings and philosophy of Osama Bin Laden and live in South America can be considered Al Qaeda if Bin Laden wishes them to be.
The biggest terrorist group imo is probably the Ba’ath party. They will through influence and money hire anyone to do their dirty work. They will also coerce people into doing their work.
As writerdog pointed out, there was Al Qaeda in the area, but formal recognition was not give by Bin Laden until well after the War in Iraq had started.
I don’t see the point of the discussion as the elements that were already there cause enough trouble.
Ben I certainly understand what you are saying. But can an economy survive when hit with unfunded sanctions and forced to compete with industry in a country like China with no guidelines?
“This startling reality is setting in on the world as scientists across the globe predict rising sea levels, severe storms and wacky weather. There still looms the possibility of yet a greater polluter cutting into the Earth’s life. Another country, China, can cause more damage than anyone can imagine. In past years, as nations quickly raced to the future, China held back. It was this indecision that held China from the club of the greatest polluters. Now China is racing to join the future. The surging growth of factories has polluted many rivers but also is drying them up.
As China’s carbon dioxide emissions increase, global warming continues to speed up. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says the increase in carbon dioxide emissions is causing a hastening of the warming process.”
It is articles like this that concern me greatly. We already have a huge trade deficit with China and if we add in a new roadblock what will happen?
Republican,
I’m STILL waiting for your examples of how “cronyism”, or some other factors, have blocked anti-AGW theories from being scientifically accepted.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/open_thread_21.html#comment-67309920
Republican: “I could contribute nothing but my personal, uneducated opinions on GW and would most likely confuse the issue.Leave the scientists from both sides to duke it out.”
They’ve “duked it out”, and your side lost. But you refuse to admit it.
You’re the hypocrite, Republican. You don’t have a climate science background, yet you insist that the science in the IPCC reports is wrong.
So what are your science degrees in Cosmos?
This is about the 30th time I’ve asked him.
If he doesn’t answer again, it will prove he is a hypocrite.
ksgrm – you raise valid points. Kyoto was to be but the first step. We go after the ‘low-hanging fruit’, the easy stuff. With over an order of magnitude more emissions per capita we (and Europe) have a lot of fat that can be cut before getting into muscle. We also have the technology for nuclear, wind, etc better than developing countries do. That is why we need to start first. Also, it comes off as hypocrisy if we tell a guy on a bicyle to reduce his output when we are driving Hummers.
The longer we wait to start doing something the more difficult it will be. What will our grandchildren think about us when there is no polar ice cap, when the old dust bowl looks like the good times, when there is no New Orleans at all? I don’t know about your grandkids but I am certain mine will DAMN us for what we did to their planet.
Rep – I cannot speak for cosmos but I CAN tell you my science degrees. SB Chemistry MIT (home of Animal House) PhD Chmistry UCLA. BS Geology and MS Environmental Science WSU. Additional education at U Arizona and Cal Tech (home of Wierd Science).
cosmos strikes me as quite knowledgeable in the field; more importantly he links good scientific sites. Their work is well-vetted.
Republican,
Science is very specialized. Even highly credentialed and qualified scientists rely on other scientists, when the topic is outside their field of expertise.
So AGAIN, what qualifies YOU, with your “degree isn’t a science degree”, to insist that the peer-reviewed climate science contained in IPCC’s reports is wrong?
It seems to be because you hate the U.N., and carbon taxes.
cosmos – absolutely correct. Even having taken paleoclimatology along with the rest of my background I would never be able to hold my own against those in the IPCC. However, I have found that I can carry on a professional conversation with several of them over the years.
The topic IS difficult to try to fully understand; however it does get easier with continuous study.
Nighty nite –
“God our Father I come to say, ‘Thank You for Your Love Today; Thank You for my family and all the friends You give to me. Guard me in the dark of night and in the morning send Your light”
“So what are your science degrees in Cosmos?”
Please.
This is a completely irrelevant attempt at derailment. Cosmos links to peer reviewed science and to the top climate science organizations in the world. He backs up what he says, and he does so honestly. He does not post arguments from personal authority, therefore his personal qualifications are irrelevant.
“This is about the 30th time I’ve asked him.”
He backs up what he says much better than you do. He makes statements about the state of the science on global warming and backs it up. More to the point, he has several times been able to demonstrate when such science has been misrepresented. Apparently because you are unable to come up with an effective response to the information he posts, you attempt to shift attention to cosmos’ qualifications. Not once that I have seen has cosmos attempted an argument from personal authority. His typical argument is “this is what the science says”, then he provides multiple links to primary source material to back it up. He also provides factual information about others’ links.
“If he doesn’t answer again, it will prove he is a hypocrite.”
Wrong. He doesn’t represent himself as an expert whose personal authority supercedes others. When others attempt to use links to “experts” to refute him, cosmos’ response has reliably been to reference and link to critiques of such persons from the mainstream scientific community. The ability to read and apply critical thinking is required to honorably post the arguments cosmos uses. Professional qualifications in climatic science field or any other field are not requirements to do so. Furthermore, criticizing others for attempting to use arguments from personal authority is not hypocritical if he himself is not making such arguments. And he is not, cosmos post links to references to support his positions on global warming related issues. Every time. In fact, as I recall you tend to whine about it.
What that means, however, is that his refusal to respond to your requests for his qualifications are not hypocritical.
You however, Republican, ARE a hypocrite. You advance Lindzen as an expert, then get all huffy when cosmos posts and links to criticisms by scientific experts of Lindzen.
You sir, are still embarassing yourself.
Okay Cosmos, I have given you a more than fair chance to discuss what degrees you have.
Since you have no science degree and rely solely on hyperlinks, I find your discussions unworthy.
I tried to discuss the issues with you and you use ad hominem or say so and so isn’t credible.
How would you know if you are not a Scientist? You can’t use your degree in hyperlinks to get by in life.
Sometimes you have to stand on your own two feet. And that Cosmos, shows me that you can’t discuss issues without hyperlink.
Just like ksagnostic and yourself Cosmos, discrediting Lindzen.
Do either of you have a PhD in Meteorology specializing in Climate change in Oceanography?
I didn’t think so. So what do you do? You discrediting him by press clippings from hyperlinks.
Hells bells, if that’s all it took in life all the Universities just need to close down.
At least I discuss the issues, educate myself on them and attempt to find alternative view.
I don’t rely on unscientific papers to make my points. Yes Cosmos, I know what papers look like and there are very very few on the Internet. By far, most of them would not be understood by non-scientists in that field.
So what do you use Cosmos? You use translated copies of Scientific papers and draw your conclusions. That is a very dangerous proposition to use in a discussion. Claiming that the discussion is backed in Science, but it is only backed on some Web site interpretation which may not even be by the Scientist, but some Web rat.
Okay Cosmos, I’ve tried to accommodate you, but since you can’t be honest with me and tell me if you have science in your degrees or any college level science at all, then I must discredit you as a Web junkie whose degree is in hyperlink.
Now go apply for a job with hyperlink Cosmos. Go ahead, see if you can.
“What if we pulled back but stayed close enough to go in if we had to?”
Damn, solly, that sounds like you are agreeing with Democrat John Murtha. Isnt that what his “over the horizon” strategy was?
Farmie,
Don’t know John Murtha. I don’t really care which political party comes up with the answer to this, just want our troops to not be shot at. I want the damn Iraqis to stand up for and police themselves. Could give a rats ass who gets the oil, I’d rather be of the OPEC tit anyway. If I could afford an electric car, I’d be driving one.
Ever notice it is the shit sticks in the world that control the oil? Now were they shit sticks to begin with or did the oil make them that way?
**off the opec tit…
Republican,
AGAIN, my degrees are IRRELEVANT. I did NOT personally claim that Lindzen’s water vapor theory was wrong — three qualified research teams did.
YOUR “degree isn’t a science degree” does NOT qualify you to say that those scientists are wrong.
And Lindzen HIMSELF admits his theory is wrong. Go argue with him!
Lindzen’s op-eds ARE filled with misleading, and false statements. For example, Benny Peiser has admitted that his study was wrong. And CO2 causes much more than 2% of the greenhouse effect.
Republican: “Claiming that the discussion is backed in Science, but it is only backed on some Web site interpretation which may not even be by the Scientist, but some Web rat.”
Looks like Republican believes that all of these highly qualified scientists are “Web rats”.http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/558.htm
I’m STILL waiting for your examples of how “cronyism”, or some other factors, have blocked anti-AGW theories from being scientifically accepted.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/open_thread_21.html#comment-67309920