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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted April 17, 2007 at 1:06 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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131 Comments
I am not making light of the murders yesterday, I am making light of some of the comments I have heard on the TV. I was home for lunch and on Fox news they had somebody that was a guest talking about the V.T. slaughter. He said “ This could have been avoided, this was a major university but they did not have metal detectors, armed guards or BOMB SNIFFING DOGS… This could have been totally avoided!”Even the reporter caught the bit about dogs, she tried to change the subject.You can always tell when the news has focus too long on a subject when they start saying some of the most off subject things.
There is a old saying, “If you run out of intelligence things to say… then STFU!”.
I think that many of us were grasping at anything to try to make sense of what had happened. Sadly, I think we will be doing so for some time to come.
It’s sad that it takes something like taht to finally end the nonsense that is Anna Nicole and Imus, but then I could be wrong.
Tom Paine,
Indeed. And when the horror of this thing becomes too overwhelming (it already is, really), we’ll be thrown right back into the arms of Imus and Anna Nicole.
Yesterday’s events, as tragic as they were, have been mischaracterized by some of the news media. This was NOT the worst mass killing in US history — not nearly so. Even a cursory review of US history reveals examples of much greater carnage in single events. Have we forgotten Sand Creek? What about Antietam, Shiloh and other battles in the war between the states? For that matter, what about some of the mass killings that took place along the Kansas-Missouri border in the 1850’s? The tragedy that took place at Virgina Tech does not require breathless hype to bring it to our attention.
So – has anyone heard WHO the shooter is yet?
Someone suggested a Chinese National yesterday, but is there any verification?
Frankly, I’m surprised that the news coverage hasn’t been more forthcoming.
It seemed as though right after 9-11, we had a list of names. Of course, some of those proved errant, later, but it seems as though there is a ‘lid’ on this info.
Any thoughts?
From what little I have heard this morning; the shooter in the Engineering Building was a student at VaTech; apparently, Asian, here legally. Lived in one of the residence halls, not the one where the first murders occurred. Identification has been hindered due to no id on the person, coupled with the physical damage to his head resulting from the suicide shot thereto.
From cnn.com; shooter was 23 years old, from South Korea, English major; they give his name, Cho ??? (sorry, guys, cannot recall and didn’t copy). Apparently, he was involved with both incidents.
South Korea, huh? That’s where my son is, in Incheon. For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not.
Some people just go off the deep end. It doesn’t mean that security was lax or that the government didn’t monitor the foreigners closely enough.
I would say however, that there should have been some way to get that information out a bit sooner to the students.
It’s bad enough that the politicization of 32 personal tragedies is happening on the VT thread. That GSheridan has brought it here is disgusting.
I so wish WEBlog had a nic filter. Then I’d never have to see GSheridan’s outrageous posts ever again.
Gee, Tom, I’m sorry that your delicate sensibilities are insulted because you feel this is being politicized.
But this IS political.
How we treat these events is an indicator of the legacy we leave to future children.
You can run around with Ostrich Syndrome all day long, but it won’t help our kids.
Yes, it’s a tragedy. Has anyone said it wasn’t?
All of us are frustrated.
But some of us would really like this to be fixed, so we don’t see MORE tragedies.
Ignoring it won’t make it go away, after all.
An excellent opinion piece from a V.T. grad student.
http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510snipOf all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.
That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.
Heckler,
You just gave me this insane vision of hundreds of students charging across campus with guns in hand, leading to an even worse situation.
Blame my runaway imagination.
So what’s going on with I-don’t-know-why-I-fired-them Gonzales?
GS, as of now, this isn’t political! Of course once ALL of the details are all released we may find out different, but as of now, this is just a case of a guy who caught his girlfriend screwing another guy and lost it. He just happens to have been from another country and here on a school visa. Doesn’t make it any less tragic, but it certainly doesn’t make it political! If we find out later that he had “terroristic” thoughts against the US or something like that, then we can talk about the politics of the situation, until then, give it up please.
I wonder why Tom didn’t bring up the others that posted about the Virginia Tech affair.
Engage brain before you type would be my suggestion.
(insert 10,000 Liberal ranting responses here)
“It’s sad that it takes something like taht to finally end the nonsense that is Anna Nicole and Imus, but then I could be wrong.”
The ironic thing is that if this had happened a week ago, Imus wouldn’t have been fired…
Republican,
I did, on the other thread, last night.
Keep up.
First of all anybody trying to make a political statement using this tragedy as an example should be ashamed of themselves. That being said, I do not believe that the VT police handled this poorly. You cannot anticipate the carnage that was going to take place 2 hours later. You can’t shut down a campus of 25,000 on a whim. I feel that as the emotion of what happened yesterday is removed we will all feel that the police did the best they could given the details they were provided.
Yeah Tom right. You didn’t say anything about the three posters that posted before GSheridan on the same subject here in the open thread.
Maybe the nic filter would include you for trying to start yet another argument.
My question Republican is why would anyone try to politicize this tragedy? And Sheridan how does this event leave a legacy for our children? This is not the first time something like this has happened. What legacy was left for us regarding the University of Texas shootings?
I agree Mike, on the radio this morning some DJs were talking about how it wasn’t handled right, but what else could have been done? They had no reason to believe that this guy was going to keep going on a rampage. As far as notifying the students, this isn’t K-12 where you usually have all of the students in one building with a speaker system to make announcements on. I’ve heard a suggestion of text messages as a way to make the announcement to students but what about those that don’t have a cell phone or a cell phone with text messaging capability, or those students who don’t want the school to use up some of their precious text messages for announcements? Not to mention the fact of keeping records of all of those cell phone numbers and the cost to make a mass announcement like that to multiple numbers with multiple cell phone companies. I think they did the best they could with the information that they had.
Republican,
There’s a big difference between discussing the facts surrounding an event, and politicizing it by making it a statement about South Korea’s citizens’ attitudes towards the United States, and whether or not the shooter hated Americans. There is no evidence of a political motive – at least not one that’s been reported – and unless GS knew this guy, ascribing political motives to his actions is *politicizing* it.
And you’re defending her.
Heh.
Republican, Tom didn’t say that we shouldn’t be talking about this issue, just that we shouldn’t be politicizing (sp?) it!!! GS was the first one to bring up the possible political side to this! You seem to be the one trying to start an argument here today.
It was Vaughn Tolle that brought up the fact that he is a South Korean Citizen.
The following statement by GSheridan that he didn’t love Americans appears to be accurate as he killed 32 of them.
And why are you defending this South Korean nut case that just killed 32 people would be the better question.
I say you are the one with the issues Tom. Taking the side of a murderer.
Republican-
Sometimes I agree with your posts. Sometimes. Sometimes, I think you just don;t get it. Your last post is in that category.
Vaughn Tolle only said that because everyone was questioning the identity! He never tried to point that out as the cause of the shooting!!! That doesn’t mean that he hates Americans, it just means that he hates humans. How many other students in those classes were from other countries? Probably quite a few. Does that mean that he hates all of those countries also? NO ONE here is defending the murderer so pull your head out of your behind and start practicing some reading comprehension!
And that’s puttingit mildly
GSheridan’s comment:
“South Korea, huh? That’s where my son is, in Incheon. For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not.”
Paraphrasing it.”Colorado, huh? …For the most part Coloradoans love Americans, but these guys obviously did not.”
The second comment seems to be rather absurd, correct? But the first statement doesn’t really make any more sense. This jerk’s actions might well have taken place in SK if he had been going to college there, broke up with a girl, and found her having sex with someone else. There is no evidence, none, at this point that his being from SK is relevant.
So when Tim McVey blew up the fed building did he hate Americans? I suppose I will enter the trap that Rep. and GS want us all to fall into….its the gun control debate. Sorry guys, that does not apply to this situation
Republican,
You are embarrassing yourself. Stop it. Please.
So Tom thinks that this is Political?
“South Korea, huh? That’s where my son is, in Incheon. For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not.”Posted by: GSheridan | April 17, 2007 at 09:21 AM
Let’s see,
1) Stating a Country2) Stating where her son is3) Stating that South Koreans’ love Americans4) Stating that the Murderer did not love Americans.
Okay, I give up…what part of that post was political.
I can go through the other post she made as well, but wouldn’t want to embarrass those who say its political.
Everything with the right it seems comes down to Loving America, Being Patriotic, Either you are with us or against us. That mentality is so small minded. This is an unprovoked tragedy. Nothing more, nothing less.
Taking the side of a murderer.Posted by: Republican | April 17, 2007 at 11:12 AM
::sigh::
If it weren’t for the fact that you use TypeKey, I would blame that one on a troll. I’d rather not believe that you or anyone else here could say, and mean, such a thing.
Don’t know the answer but another question:
http://www.kansas.com/197/story/46561.html
“BLACKSBURG, Va. – The gunman suspected of carrying out the Virginia Tech massacre that left 33 people dead was identified Tuesday as a English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service.”
I commented before that I wonder about mental health issues; how many ticking time bombs are out there?
Republican, you want to know how she made it political? Here you go, direct quotes:
“We just reaped (once again) what the liberals have sown.”
“you are spreading your liberal poison”
“The shooter today was a terrorist – maybe not the Muslim kind – but he spread just as much terror and death.”
“Chinese National? Uh-oh.”“For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not.”
“But this IS political.”
By suggesting that this was because of a certain political group or because of his nationality! Now, if after we get more information and find out this was for political reasons, more power to you, but until then STOP. Any questions? Now, as for that reading comprehension???
Don’t let them hate you Republican. The prez is going there today for his photo op.
Republican,
You are a willfully ignorant hack. You know VERY well that GSheridan has been politicizing this issue from the very first moment she commented on it yesterday.
Is this comment from GSheridan political enough for you?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/horror_then_mou.html#comment-66636544
“The fact that I’m exposing you for the pacifist whack-job and failure as a human being that you are – doesn’t mean I hate you.
I don’t hate you.
I pity you.
I pity anyone who is around you – or looks up to you because you are spreading your liberal poison – the very same kind of poison that took hold at Virgina Tech today – resulting in the slaughter of dozens of innocent kids.”
That seems kind of political to me. Also morally repugnant.
GSheridan was positively itching to get her hate on last night regarding the shooter’s ethnicity:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/horror_then_mou.html#comment-66648628
Chinese National?
Uh-oh.
Posted by: GSheridan | April 16, 2007 at 07:53 PM
I pointed this out last night and Republican put on his dunce cap regarding that comment then too.
And now Republican jumps right in to GSheridan’s cess pool with assertion that people who object to GSheridan’s morally repugnant comments are “Taking the side of a murderer.”
Is there no end to Republican’s dishonesty when it comes to defending the indefensible?
With this tragedy so fresh in our minds. Here is an example of what may and I say may be to come from our soldiers as they come home from Iraq
http://kansas.com/197/story/46646.html
Support the troops! Look at what this guy had to do to get treatment for his PTSD
In many ways he is more American than he is S Korean:
“Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., officials said.”
Moved here at age 8; lived here 15 years. I don’t see how his nationality is an issue; it seems more a simple case of a guy who cracked for whatever reason.
I looked at GSheridan’s post and found nothing political about it. I even broke it down to its logical form. The fact that he did kill Americans is a logical follow that he did not love Americans, especially including the fact of the note he left.
The fact that Tom brings up the fact that GSheridan’s post was political and he no factual basis to show that it was.
The fact that I view posts logically and try not wear my heart on my sleeve.
It’s a well known fact that a lot of South Korean youth do not like Americans, especially those of college age. Ask any G.I. that’s been to South Korea about the never-ending protests against America there.
All of sudden,the folks I had semi-respect for attack me for for stating that yet another Tom ad hominem attack for no reason is out of line.
Sorry, I call them like I see them.
It looks like there are more clueless people on this blog than I thought.
In many ways he is more American than he is S Korean:
“Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., officials said.”
Moved here at age 8; lived here 15 years. I don’t see how his nationality is an issue; it seems more a simple case of a guy who cracked for whatever reason.
How many other students in those classes were from other countries? Probably quite a few.Posted by: AFN | April 17, 2007 at 11:16 AM
MSNBC, CNN and FOX News are posting profiles of the victims on their websites. As AFN speculated, a significant number of the victims are from foreign countries. That’s to be expected at a world-class engineering school.
Are we being political now Tom? Bringing up that some of the students are from foreign countries?
One standard for you and one standard for GSheridan eh?
You should understand that “Republican’s” idea of logic is to apply Hokums Razor (and go with the the most foolish explanation).
Republican appears to have difficulty discerning between statements of fact, and speculations about motive.
Let me get this straight Republican… Not only are you going to ignore the direct quote from GS saying that it is political but you are also going to take Tom’s evidence of my statement AGAINST political involvement and use it to attack him for being political?!?!?! Wow, it’s quite sad…
I see all the Fisters are clocking in under disguised nicks.
Right Tom, and you are the decider that says who can post what and whether it is political or not political?
I don’t recall of anyone conveying that right upon you Tom.
Good Lord.
Republican, I urge you to stop and think about what you’re doing here.
You’ve played these childish games of manipulating people’s words before, but never on an issue like this. Do you really want to cross this line?
Like I said point out the statement in GSheridan’s post that was political.
You can’t have it both ways AFN.
Oh my goodness! The ignorance and denial are giving me an anuerysm…
Please Condor, no lectures from you who uses profanity every three words in a sentence.
In many ways he is more American than he is S Korean:
“Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., officials said.”
Moved here at age 8; lived here 15 years. I don’t see how his nationality is an issue; it seems more a simple case of a guy who cracked for whatever reason.
So AFN, the challenge is there, show me in a logical manner how GSheridan’s statement about a nationality is political.
It’s a challenge, prove your assertion.
By trying to say that this attack was because of his nationality, she is saying that this was some kind of politcal or terroristic (is that even a word?) event. I don’t believe that I can make it any clearer especially since I quoted her as saying, “this IS political.” Any other questions?
Republican-
Stop trying to defend yourself and GS, and think clearly for a moment. I think you will see you have gone over to the dark side (the side of illogical reasoning) in this argument.
Republican:
Take this as friendly advise from one who tends to agree with you from time to time.
Please stop digging. The hole is deep enough. You’re wrong on this one. Let it go.
Republican,
Using the word f*ck is NOT and never will be equivalent to accusing political opponents of “taking the side of a murderer.”
Using the word f*ck is NOT and never will be equivalent to any one of GSheridan’s morally repugnant comments as quoted above.
You are crossing a line here. You’re making a choice. It says a GREAT deal about who you are. And everyone on this thread thus far has shown ample patience with you and provided you plenty of opportunities to turn back. Let there be no mistake. You’re conciously choosing to cross this line because you choose not to ground your arguments with human decency. You choose not to have the humility and self-respect to correct your rhetorical course.
It’s your choice, Republican.
I would say your wrong.
Let me give you an example.
Illegal Aliens cross the border daily. The U.S. decides on a policy because of its National Interest and Security.
A drunk illegal alien kills two American teenager young women while driving a car.
It’s still not political, all facts so far.
The Mayor of the town takes offense that she is using the town as a safe harbor for illegal aliens.
Now, it’s political.
GSheridan’s statement didn’t even approach that level.
Sorry, but you lose. Your attack characterization on me without resorting to logical discourse, says more about you than it does me.
You lose again, because you can’t discuss without ad hominem.
It looks like there are more clueless people on this blog than I thought.Posted by: Republican | April 17, 2007 at 11:47 AM
LOL
Occam’s razor, dude. To wit: yeah, there’s cluelessnness here, but it’s FAR EASIER to explain it by one poster’s cluelessness — yours — than to explain it by mass cluelessness.
As Tom notes upthread, yet again Republican puts his inability to discern fact from opinion front and center. (paraphrasing, Tom!)
And I bet everbody here knows the difference between “never” and “5 days”!!!
LOL
Okay, I’m wrong for standing up for someone who makes a statement that was in no way political and then point out someone who tried to make it political.
I’m see now I’m not entitled to my opinion on the matter and notice how people turn so quickly against me when I state my opinion.
So it is shut up Republican, when we want your opinion we will ask for it?
You lose again, because you can’t discuss without ad hominem.
Posted by: Republican | April 17, 2007 at 12:15 PM
Is that what this blog is about winning and losing an argument? Not to provoke thought and provide a different opinion? Is this third or fourth grade?
Great… Just found out that a high school in my hometown (not in KS) is on lockdown because some kid has a gun. Just what we need, idiot copycats…
Exactly Mike, which is why I pointed out Tom’s post that didn’t provoke thought or provide a different opinion. Tom’s post was meant to be inflammatory.
It doesn’t sound like this Cho guy was someone who “suddenly cracked”. Mental illness in the form of at least depression had been obvious with him for some time. He was taking antidepressant meds.
http://www.kansas.com/197/story/46561.html
Multiple murders like this account for less than one percent of all homicides in the U.S. Since 1945 there have been approximatley 100 cases of such multiple killings.
Usually the perps are not known to the the Criminal system, but are known to the mental health system. This is not to say that psychiatric patients are more likely to commit these types of crimes than non-psych patients. In the majority of cases such perps gave warning signs concerning their intent to commit violence – often directly telling someone like a family member.
Most perps of multiple killings do not survive their murders – they either kill themselves like Cho did, or commit suicide by cop.
http://www.wamu.org/programs/dr/07/04/17.php#13158
Because of the concerns raised by Cho’s writing assignments he had been referred to the school’s counseling division. So he left signs as well.
So, even in being alert to warning signs and responding appropriately to them is not always sufficient to prevent tragedies like this.
Republican-
And yours stating Tom was”And why are you defending this South Korean nut case that just killed 32 people would be the better question.
I say you are the one with the issues Tom. Taking the side of a murderer.”
was not inflammatory was provoking thought and discussion? Man,get ahold of yourself and realize what you ar saying!
republican says “So it is shut up Republican, when we want your opinion we will ask for it?”
if only!
Republican,
“Bringing up that some of the students are from foreign countries?
One standard for you and one standard for GSheridan eh?”
GSheridan: “For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not….But this IS political.”
There’s a HUGE difference between:1) Identifying what country someone is from,and2) Claiming that their nationality is a motive to commit multiple murders, and insisting that it “IS political”.
No littlejohn, you get a hold of yourself. Linking someone who is a nutcase with a nationality is nothing new. Listen to the news.
If it wasn’t a part of his identity, then why did the news even list him as a South Korean?
Blame the news, not me.
I see a lot of hypocrites are on today.
I think its time for a new topic. We have proven that we are not mature enough to handle this one!
Okay I give up. What new topic?
i see alot of attacks on GS but not for any reason. isnt this suppose to be a place where we talk about opinoins? i read that whole long VT blog and GS told strong opinions but the ones who attacked her just want censorship. they dont like her so they can say what they want but she cant. condor was the worst but others are bad to. go read the bad stuff condor wrote its the worst there. i think this sounds like another plan on email to attack us one at a time. because the attacks dont make any sense like republican pointed out.
Here you go Littlejohn
With the VT tragedy so fresh in our minds. Here is an example of what may and I say may be to come from our soldiers as they come home from Iraq
http://kansas.com/197/story/46646.html
Support the troops! Look at what this guy had to do to get treatment for his PTSD.
Posted by: Mike | April 17, 2007 at 11:47 AM
Thanks AaronS. It appears you are the only one today that can actually see past what is actually happening.
I’ve very disappointed in those who have chosen to lambaste me for pointing out an unnecessary attack post.
Republican,
Many people from all sides of this issue have weighed in here on your willfully ignorant intransigence. You know VERY WELL what’s going on here. Everyone here knows what’s going on here. At this point your “Poor Beleaguered Republican” bit is just embarrassing.
You have repeatedly and deliberately ignored information in this thread which you found inconvenient to advancing your argument. You have glibly tossed out at least one truly astonishing ad hominem attack and then set about accusing everyone else of being mean and nasty. In short, you have thrown up a great deal of sand in a pathetic attempt to so confust the conversation that nothing can be agreed upon by anyone. These are the tactics of a petulant child.
It’s one thing for you to use these dishonest tactics when debating global warming or the firings of the US Attorneys. The topic at hand today is entirely different and that should be self-evident. That this didn’t stop GSheridan from using her usual tricks on this topic is of no surprise. Even though you and I have had our run ins, I actually thought you’d have the decency to draw a line somewhere. Apparently not.
With the VT tragedy so fresh in our minds. Here is an example of what may and I say may be to come from our soldiers as they come home from Iraq
http://kansas.com/197/story/46646.html
Support the troops! Look at what this guy had to do to get treatment for his PTSD.
Posted by: Mike | April 17, 2007 at 11:47 AM
How awful! worse than that. I am a big proponent of PTSS debreifings, not offered, but mandantory attendance. Cannot make someone participate, can make them attend. If he asked for help, and did not get it, his commanders should be ashamed. At the same time, it can be worth noting that he may have been one of those that would hav”flipped” regardless. I saw a lot of bad things happen to people upon their return from Viet Nam. Some caused by PTSS, some excused by it. It became a cause celebre for many. This condition has been true of all returning vets, regardless of the war. many have had these problems. My grandfather for one. A lawyer before he left for WW1, a railroad general helper afterward. The trench wars left him without coping abilities. Wha became more significant after Viet Nam was those that resorted toviolence, and the news being national, you heard so many more stories
http://kansas.com/197/story/46646.html
Support the troops! Look at what this guy had to do to get treatment for his PTSD
Posted by: Mike | April 17, 2007 at 11:47 AM
That last sentence of this article is what alarmed me, that he will be getting a psychological evaluation from the MILITARY. Poor guy will never get the help he needs.
Thanks for weighing in Condor. Perhaps you can now continue your crusade of the righteous and go solve the World’s problem now.
TDT-
You could be right, Military health care is not alwsys what it should be, but i suspect that many psychologists that do not understand miitary life or warin general probably would have a difficult time also.
littlejohn,
There are psychiatrists in the military that specialize in this, as there are in the VA. There are neurosurgeons and neurologists in the military.
The press only gets about a tenth of the story and reports on the worst cases.
I am a veteran, the son of a veteran, and the father of a veteran to be. i am quite familiar with the good and the bad of military healthcare. It is better than often reported, but far less than it should be
I have a nephew who has traumatic brain injury after two tours in Iraq. We talk often and I know quite intimately what he has gone through and is going through now.
He probably won’t live a full life because of other complications associated with the injury.
I come from a line of veterans from the Revolutionary War and am a medically retired disabled Veteran. I’m pretty sure I know how the system works more than most reporters.
On those points, we agree. And there are great places of Military medicine and VA medicine, and there are those not so great. AD and Vets deserve the best, all the time.
You go to war with the Army you got. Not the Army you want. I remember some idiot saying that.
To spend the kind of money in Iraq that we are and to not take care of EVERY soldier that comes home is shameful. Why is the status quo ok? Can we not demand better? As I have said before the media is wholly based on the 5 second soundbite. However, if 1 soldier is left behind when they come home how is it the media’s fault that the current system is broken? You cannot point the finger at the media for sensationalizing this case. It was buried on the website. Seems that things like this should get more attention not less.
Oh. My. God. Seriously? 32 people are dead. I am begging everyone to summon your humanity for a moment and not politicize what’s happened.
32 people, think about the reality of that, think about the fear and horror, think about their families and the people who love them.
Don’t assign motive, don’t assume that you know anything that has not been solidly confirmed.
GSheridan: “For the most part SK’s love Americans, but this guy obviously did not.”
The bigger issue is a disrespect for human life as a whole–if you can’t recognize that, well that just makes me even more sad today.
Ummm. Mike, I agree with you. I thought I made that clear. If not, I am doing so now.
LittlejohnMy previous post was in response to Republican. I understand that we agree on this one. Can’t say that everyday…..lol
Yea, we have disagreed once or twice. :-).
There are comments all over the board in this thread. However, one thing that seems to tie many of them together is mental illness.
The shooter in VT – mental illness. The PTSD soldier in Herington – mental illness. Republican – who knows.
Anyway, if we want to stop these kinds of things from happening, there will need to be a major paradigm shift in America. We must begin viewing mental illnesses as seriously as we view physical ones.
Students are required to get annual ‘physicals’ before they can play sports. Maybe students should get annual ‘mentals’ before they go to class?
i went and read the other blog and yes they are posting about here again. i think condor might be wendy becaseu she said almost identical posts. i want to say that im sadened by the shooter and all dead but there are hurt to in hospitals. parents are blaming campus police as they are greif stricken now.
“i went and read the other blog and yes they are posting about here again. i think condor might be wendy becaseu she said almost identical posts.”
And the point is???
Yes Mike I can blame the Media. They only see what’s on the surface and never seen what people do in those medical facilities.
All the tremendous medical staff and volunteers.
It takes one report for the whole country to go on a finger-pointing rage trip. I saw this several times as a volunteer in Veterans facility. You work your butt off and then get slapped in the face by people who have no idea what their talking about.
The VA and Military get budget cut by Congress and then are the first in line to blame them when they don’t have the funds to fix them.
I sat on committees in the Military where we made plans far in the future for new buildings, supplies and equipment only have it shot down because it goes unfunded.
Then after you do this for several years it gets frustrated. When you get inspected in the Military by Command or Inspector Generals, they make note about how things are unfunded but we get written up for it anyway because somehow it is our fault.
I bet if you go to Walter Reed right now, you will find that there are years of many reports on fixing the infrastructure that are still open because they couldn’t get funding.
So yeah, the press is clueless on a lot of this.
I can agree with you on this one Republican. Military health care can be great, it can also suck – I’ve lived with it most of my life. But when it does suck it is usually because of funding. The media didn’t even care about military health care until the whole Walter Reed thing and now most in the media are using it as a way to blast the administration when they had nothing to do with it. These problems and conditions have been going on for years, long before this admin ever took over.
The current treatment of our soldiers sickens me. If we as a nation choose to send our Military into harm’s way two things better happen:1. We had better have a damn good reason for sending them in. This would include a specific goal to be accomplished by them so it is clear when their role in the fighting will be over so we can get them out.
2. We had better be prepared to provide them with the best possible health care when they return. We had better be prepared to take care of their families while they are gone.
Oh, good grief. I leave for a few hours and the libs have a heyday.
AFN – do you KNOW for a fact that the guy killed everyone because his girlfriend had another guy? That’s one HECK of a lot more conclusive than my mild comment. Did you even see Vaughn’s link to the site where they are talking about a Muslim connection?
Tom – there is nothing outrageous about saying the guy didn’t love Americans. And there is nothing political about that statement either, although were it political – it would STILL be my right to post it. sheesh
Mike – the ‘legacy’ I was speaking of – is one of what is known as the Zero Tolerance policy. It makes Zero sense.
ksagnostic – the SK comment was based upon my knowledge that the typical South Korean adores America and Americans. Their culture is set up to mimic ours and the popular feeling is one of near-worship of Americans. I was only pondering this young man’s feelings as they related to what is typical. Again – not political.
AaronS – yes, perhaps it is Wendy – perhaps not. Either way it doesn’t matter. They only support ‘free speech’ if it agrees with their agenda. If it doesn’t – they want the opposer’s silenced.
Republican – thanks for the support – sorry they went after your throat on account of me.
GS – I saw the right-wing blog making a “Muslim connection”; also was told that Sean Hannity is doing the same thing. Haven’t seen any evidence though. I did see that he wrote about “debauchery” on the campus as a reason for the killing spree.
Given that he grew up in suburban DC I would say he was more American than Korean.
Ben,That is strange, the typical person from DC’er loves Americans. Apparently the DC’er shooting VT up did not.
Well, he wasn’t really from DC; he was from Virginia.
Ben – in Vaughn’s link they talk about a phrase he had on his arm. But, that seems like a stretch to me. The story has been so protected – how would something like that just ‘leak’ out?
I remember Dan Rather saying that in the first 48 hours after an incident nearly everything you hear about it – should be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, I saw that too. I think it is a bit of a reach too.
Given the fact that both sources I have seen/heard about (AtlasShrugged and Hannity) are absolute haters of Muslims I tend to be a bit dubious.
You want ‘politicizing’ this incident, what about GW’s visit? When he said “It’s impossible to make sense of such violence and suffering,” Bush said at a memorial service on the campus where 33 people, including the suspected gunman, died in shootings the day before.
“Those whose lives were taken did nothing to deserve their fate,” the president said. “They were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now they’re gone — and they leave behind grieving families, and grieving classmates, and a grieving nation.”was he talking about the students in virigina or the soldiers in Iraq.These kind of death tolls are a daily given in Iraq, think about that when you want to make comparisons of Iraq to American cities murder rates.
“You should understand that “Republican’s” idea of logic is to apply Hokums Razor (and go with the the most foolish explanation).”Posted by: Long Time Poster, First Time Lurker | April 17, 2007 at 11:58 AM
Never heard of Hokums Razor. I’ve heard of Ockham’s razor though.
Where did that come from? The Lil’ Abner handbook of Logic?
“i went and read the other blog and yes they are posting about here again.”
They (we) are posting about current events, just as those here are. Are current events now off limits for everyone EXCEPT those on WEBlog?
Good grief. How utterly childish can you get, Aaron? As you probably saw, not everyone over there has the same opinions, yet nobody is calling names.
I heard on the news tonight that the City of Wichita and the FOP have come to a tentative contract agreement. Has anyone heard any details of what the agreement will consist of?
“AFN – do you KNOW for a fact that the guy killed everyone because his girlfriend had another guy? That’s one HECK of a lot more conclusive than my mild comment. Did you even see Vaughn’s link to the site where they are talking about a Muslim connection?”
I’ll admit after learning a little more that I was taking something that I had heard form multiple sources and assuming it was correct for that reason. I was wrong. But I will NOT back down from my previous comments related to the narrow-minded bigotry that you posted just because he looked Asian. It is SICK to politicize this tragedy just because you think you know all about the shooter from looking at one picture of him or hearing his name. Having only had a chance to glance at the website that Vaughn posted, I didn’t see a lot of reliable info to link him to any fanatical Muslim groups/beliefs but maybe more info will come out about that soon.
FYI: I’m not a lib, so there is another gross generalization to add to your list…
Yes AFN, let’s all post nice things about the murderer.
I sure hope that’s a joke, otherwise I would like to see some evidence of when I was supposedly saying “nice things about the murderer.”
You flamed GSheridan and me relentlessly on politicizing the event at VT.
Then you and others politicize it by labeling people bigots and other names.
Hypocrites I would say.
Or are you going to say labeling someone a bigot is not political.
Squirm out of that one.
Y’all just simply amaze me. 32 people die because some deranged scorned lover can get a gun, (Don’t twist that I’m not advocating taking away anyone’s guns, be more conscious of who is allowed to have one.) and all most of you can do is insult each other — what about discussions on solutions? Some real empathy / sympathy for the families? No, many of you choose to make it about you and how profound you can be. Shame .. Obviously a lot of intelligent people here — just not real smart …………….
Why is there such debate, furor and hand wringing for those 32 students / staff and their families and so little about the service men, policeman, firemen who die every day? well, it’s because I think we’ve become an issue of the moment society, in 2-3 weeks (at most) this will cease to be a talking point and stories the like of Rosey, Imus, who should win American Idol etc will become front page news once again – and you will bitch at each other over them ….. to see who can out insult the other. Nothing changes – refill the sand buckets we as a nation will be putting our heads back in them.
I was talking with a friend in the mental health field today (a well respected therapist in the area), I don’t remember how but he began talking about narcissists — and he stated some thing to the effect of:
When narcissists can’t get what they want (fail), or can’t support their opinions with facts – relevant specific experiences, they resort to name calling, nit picking and character assassination, in essence avoiding the issue to give them some sense of superiority and they are usually successfully at the character assassination because it’s what others remember of the debate. Because of their narcissism and self absorption (translate “Look at Me”) they some how have garnered a certain amount of credibility in society. We see it in our politicians, our celebrities, the screaming heads on TV — and of course very obviously here on the blog
and of course very obviously here on the blog – yourself included, of course.
Tuesday, April 17th 2007 (Update: 9:17PM)
REST IN PEACE:
Mary ReadFreshman, Interdisciplinary Studies and Elementary Education
Matthew GwaltneyChester, Va.Environmental Engineering
Austin CloydBorn: Charlotte, NC | Residence: Champagne, Il.Graduated Blacksburg High SchoolFreshman, International Studies and French
Erin Peterson
Jeremy HerbstrittBellefonte, PAGraduate Student, Civil Engineering
Brian BluhmCedar Rapids, IAGraduate Student, Civil Engineering
Jocelyne Couture-NowakFrench professor
Nicole WhiteCarrollton, Va.Junior, International Studies and German
Ross AlameddineSaugus, Ma.Class of 2009, English and Business Information Technology
Lauren McCainHampton, Va.Class of 2010, International Studies
Dan O’NeilLafeyette, Rhode IslandGraduate Student, Civil Engineering
Maxine TurnerVienna, Va.Senior, Chemical Engineering
Henry LeeRoanoke, Va.Freshman, Computer Engineering
Matt La PorteDumont, New JerseyFreshman, University Studies
Jamie BishopInstructor, Foreign Languages and Literatures (German)
G.V. LoganathanProfessor, Civil and Environmental Engineering
Juan OrtizGraduate Student, Civil Engineering
Jarrett LaneNarrows, Va.Senior, Civil Engineering
Ryan ClarkColumbia County, Ga.Senior, Biology, English, Psychology
Leslie ShermanSophomore, History and International Studies
Caitlin HammarenSophomore, International Studies and French
Liviu LibrescuProfessor, Engineering Science & Mechanics
Kevin GranataProfessor, Engineering Science & Mechanics
Reema SamahaCentreville, Va.Freshman
Emily HilscherWoodville, Va.Freshman, Animal and Poultry Sciences, Equine Science
Bob – I can see why you might say that — but I didn’t attack any individual here, and I will never again resort to the type of name calling and ridicule that I see here every day — but thanks for proving my point …..
KIA — DoD release 4/16/07
Rest in Peace
Blue, Shaun M. 1st Lieutenant 25 U.S. Marine 2nd BN, 7th Marine Reg, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force Hostile – hostile fire Al Anbar Province Munster Indiana US
Delatorre, Jesse D. Lance Corporal 29 U.S. Marine 2nd BN, 7th Marine Reg, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force Hostile – hostile fire Al Anbar Province Aurora Illinois US
Scherry, Daniel R. Lance Corporal 20 U.S. Marine 1st BN, 2nd Marine Reg, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force Non-hostile – accident Al Anbar Province Rocky River Ohio US
Starcevich, Lucas V. Private 1st Class 25 U.S. Army 1st BN, 18th Infantry Reg, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division Hostile – hostile fire – IED attack Baghdad (southern part) Canton Illinois US
Genevie, Aaron M. Private 1st Class 22 U.S. Army 1st Squadron, 4th Cavalry Reg, 4th Infantry Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division Hostile – hostile fire – IED attack Baghdad (southern part) Chambersburg Pennsylvania US
De Leon, Mario K. Sergeant 26 U.S. Army 1st BN, 18th Infantry Reg, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Infantry Division Hostile – hostile fire – small arms fire
I can’t believe the gun advocates haven’t been screaming because the students weren’t armed…afterall, if everyone had a gun, then they could have defended themselves.I’m sure they’ll twist this event into a reason why CCW is a wonderful thing. Where are you Nathan?Sad, maybe if guns weren’t so available, it might not have happened.
Mary,
Nathan already responded on the Wichita Voice about this and people responded back.
You want a second “shot” at him here?
One thing I’ll give you Republican – you certainly don’t give up, unfortunately, sometimes you become a little misguided.
First of all, I didn’t “flame” you and GSheridan “relentlessly.” I simply commented on the disgusting politicization of the situation by GSheridan, after that you argued multiple points over and over again which I replied to. Now who is the relentless one there?
Second of all, calling someone a bigot is not political. Miriam-Webster defines bigot as a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance. The only thing political here is GSheridan’s attitude towards the shooter because of his appearance/name, I was simply calling her out on that.
I don’t see any squirming here… Now I’m off to do more important things such as sleep since I am terribly disappointed in the amount of time and energy that I have devoted to this today.
Yep, if everyone had a gun, nothing would have happened. All we need is more guns. Yep, more guns, bigger, more powerful, faster, more automatic, bigger and better. All we need is more guns.
Thank you Ken for posting the bios of the victims. I would like to add that Maxine Turner was a beloved charter member of the Rho Chapter of Alpha Omega Epsilon and that she would have graduated in just a few weeks…
The ironic thing is that if this had happened a week ago, Imus wouldn’t have been fired…Posted by: AFN | April 17, 2007 at 10:51 AM
Yeah AFN, you would never politicize or make a bigoted remark.
And Republican would never make a political or bigoted remark either.
Bob as part of the Fisters, you are violated your code.
Excuse me? What code and wtf are you accusing?
Do you own the blog republican? Arre you kicking even the moderates off? Who the hell are you to decide you can or can not post here?
For the record, Republican, I posted the reasons we boycotters were leaving the WEBlog. I used the name “Fists of Freedom.”
I was a hokey reference to the Chinese Boxers . . . “the society of righteous fists.”
It wasn’t brilliant or even good, but it was a name, heigh ho.
You and Fleetttwood can quit ridiculing other posters with that epithet. I was all my idea . . .
Republican,I am one of the “fisters” you described earlier.You don’t even know me.In fact, if you go to my blog, you’ll find my take on it probably is a hell of a lot different than those of my friends (I’d post here, but I’m too damn tired to type all that over again).Kindly cut the ad hominem crap. That’s always in bad taste.
My ribs are sure sore from all that kicking I took in the ribs from “reasonable” posters.
Gives dog piling a whole new meaning.
We feel so bad for you.
Ah Bob, the consummate Blog baiter always looking for an opportunity to invoke a flame fest.
I don’t understand how calling some one a bigot is political (there are bigots in both parties) — it certainly may be baiting. It is an opinion of some one’s character based on experiences, dialogues etc …… right or wrong —-
I understand the why of the VT police response as viewed through static’s a domestic shooting the victim for the most part is the only one in danger from the shooter. A secondary threat is to anyone that might get in the way. The first shooting sounded to be that case, there for the logical assumption would have been the crisis was over.
Within the two hours between the shootings the police would have went from a response and determine the situation to investigation. Having no indication that there was a continuing threat, the majority of the officers would have gone back to their regular duties. This may have been happenstance or planning of the shooter?
One of the guest commentator I heard addressed the why of the secondary shooting. If the shooter had a grudge against the university, he could not kill the university so he would kill those attending the university.He mentioned another case where a orient student killed a professor and a student aid and then himself because he received a B on a dictation where if he had gotten an A he would have received a grant. His parents had saved to sent him to college and he felt that he deserved the A and that he had let down his parents.
Though the shooter at VT seem to be more American and perhaps he was not influenced by a Asian thought process. The fact that there was such a distance between the two shootings and there would have been several other building and classes he could have entered. It will not be a surprise to learn he had a personal grudge.