Defense Secretary Robert Gates apparently isn’t on board with President Bush’s months-long talking point that any discussion about withdrawing U.S. troops aids the enemy and undercuts our troops.
Gates still thinks a timetable would be a mistake. “But I think the debate itself, and I think the strong feelings expressed in the Congress about the timetable . . . probably has had a positive impact — at least I hope it has in terms of communicating to the Iraqis that this is not an open-ended commitment,” Gates told reporters this week.
Maybe he should give the president that message.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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The question is, does a timetable aid our enemies, or does it put the people we support on notice that we won’t be there forever and they’d better get their shit together?
According to the AP article referenced:”…Gates renewed his opposition to Congress actually approving any such timetable. Both the House and Senate have passed bills calling for an end to the war, and President Bush has said he will veto either version if it is given final approval.
“I’ve been pretty clear that I think the enactment of specific deadlines would be a bad mistake,” Gates said.”
Gates mentioned the word “debate” as being positive, not setting a deadline.
Iraq is going so well…
John McCain joked about bombing Iran.
In response to an audience question about military action against Iran, the senator briefly sang the chorus of the surf-rocker classic song “Barbara Ann.”
“That old, eh, that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran,” he said in jest Wednesday, chuckling with the crowd. Then, he softly sang to the melody: “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, anyway, ah …” The audience responded with more laughter.
The Arizona Republican was asked for his reaction to any negative response to the joke when he arrived in Las Vegas for a fund raiser Thursday night.
“Please, I was talking to some of my old veterans friends,” he told reporters. “My response is, Lighten up and get a life.”
When reporters asked if the joke was insensitive, McCain said: “Insensitive to what? The Iranians?”
On todays Military.com:
Air Force Fills Army RanksAssociated Press | April 16, 2007
CAMP BULLIS, Texas – A row of rumbling flatbed trucks and Humvees outfitted with gun turrets lurches toward a mock village of cinderblock buildings where instructors posing as insurgents wait to test the trainees’ convoy protection skills.
The training range is Army, as is the duty itself – one of the most dangerous in Iraq these days. But the young men and women clad in camouflage and helmets training to run and protect convoys are not Army; they’re Air Force.They are part of a small but steady stream of Airmen being trained to do Army duty under the Army chain of command, a tangible sign the Pentagon was scouring the military to aid an Iraq force that was stretched long before President Bush ordered 21,500 additional U.S. troops there.
“What we’ve seen is the Department of Defense continues to find ways to meet the requirements imposed by the commander in chief,” said retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, a senior fellow at Harvard University’s Belfer Center in the John F. Kennedy School of Government.
No plans to expand the Air Force’s role in convoy operations have been announced since Bush ordered the troop surge in Iraq, but Ryan said the Army and other branches of service have been looking at every possible job that can be shifted – from the Air Force performing convoy duty to the Navy setting up medical facilities far from waterfronts.”I can’t imagine there are any jobs that they could be doing that they aren’t doing, but certainly, that doesn’t mean they’re not continuing to look to find every possible instance where we can use the full military to solve this problem and not just have this be an Army and Marine Corps issue,” he said.
Army Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, the military’s chief spokesman in Iraq, said it makes sense to bring in other branches of service for routine activities such as the convoy operations, whereas “it’s not something we should do to use them to clear buildings and conduct operations.”
The 2,225 Airmen who have been trained and sent to run convoys in Iraq and Afghanistan so far remain a relatively small part of the overall force that includes tens of thousands of Soldiers, who are sent for longer stretches and more frequent deployments.
The training at Camp Bullis began nearly three years ago, without the elaborate camp that evolved with the persistent need for Air Force help and long before Defense Secretary Robert Gates last week extended active Army deployments by three months.
The Air Force is running a regular rotation of 5-week courses for Airmen to work convoys between Kuwait and Iraq. Recently, separate training was created for those being deployed to Afghanistan.
Few of the Airmen, who once mostly moved or fixed equipment on Air Force bases, imagined they would be sent to fight in a ground war, but course trainers say it makes little difference.
“We want to be one team, one fight. It doesn’t matter which service tape you have on your uniform,” said 1st Lt. Matt Addington, the course commander.Most Air Force enlisted personnel haven’t had ground combat training, and the Army has its own sets of weaponry, terminology and command chains – all of which have to be taught to the Airmen.The Camp Bullis training, in an area named for two Airmen killed in Iraq convoys, includes courses on assault rifles, roadside bomb recognition, combat first aid and driving tactics. The Airmen live in a camp designed like a forward operating base, sleeping on cots, eating MREs and scrambling to shelter when air raid sirens sound.
The training culminates with a 72-hour exercise that includes instructors dressed in long white shirts and tapestry caps, planting mock roadside bombs and shooting blanks at the convoy from open windows in an “urban warfare village.”Many Airmen were surprised at the assignment.”I was expecting just to be a vehicle operations troop, dealing with wreckers, forklifts – vehicles like that,” said Senior Airman Robert Bledsoe, who manned a 50-caliber gun during his first deployment to Iraq. “It opened my eyes a bunch.”He completed a second round of training last week with a unit that will deploy within about a week for a 6-month tour, longer than the standard 4-month deployments for most Air Force personnel but much shorter than the 15-month tours active Army personnel now face.Staff Sgt. Stewart Jordan, a transport instructor for the course, said even the most reluctant Airmen-turned-Soldiers usually come around, ultimately finding the mission fulfilling.”Those that it’s tougher on realize that they signed on the dotted line,” he said.
Both of my sons (1-25 y.o. and 1 just turned 21) have talked about enlisting in the military. One in the regular Air Force and the youngest in the Air Guard. I would support them in their decision but did warn them as I was warned during Vietnam. About what is called an open enlistment, where the enlistment you sign is not branch specific. Leaving you to the discretion of the military as to which you will be sent.
Both boys had said they were thinking of the military police and the oldest even thought to go into the special service of the Air Force. Meaning he would be going into rescue downed pilots and the like.I asked him if he truly understand what that would mean? That he and his team would being dropped in and holding off enemy troops till a rescue force could come and pick them up. He has watched “Black hawk down” and said that was what he took it to be.
I am not surprised to read the cross training of the different branches, as Hank can attest to in the Navy if the need arrases a sailor pick up a weapon and goes feet dry. (LoL can’t let the Marines has all the fun!)But also it is as the need arrases, there has been such talk before of make our military one branch. There would be pluses and minuses to that.
The Admin. needs to review Gates Fealty card, he may be straying.
Writerdog —
Well said …. when I was a young Airman (aircraft maintenance) in Viet Nam we were issued M-16s to support base security personnel in the event the bad guys were over running the base — the proverbial fly in the oatmeal was: during the big TET campaign of 68 / 69 and the nearby town (Nha Trang) was being attacked and the base mortared / rocketed and VC were attempting to breech base security, we were hunkered down in the bunker next to the barracks and our M-16s were 6 blocks away, locked up near the squadron offices — we were pretty much defenseless until the 2 NCO’s near the S shaped entrance, discussing how to defend ourselves if the VC attempted to enter the bunker, one said “You blind him with the flashlight — I’ll hit em with a shovel” — ahhh although some what amusing at the time —- was a great indication of logical thinking on your feet in a time of great stress …. they probably learned that from the Army ….
Intelligent debate about a timetable and benchmarks of success I’m fine with.”The war is Lost” (Harry Reid) would not fall under that definition.
What we’re doing to the Iraqis is shameful. All this centers around some delusional twisted religious reasoning and it has found its way into America’s foreign policy akin to the reasoning or ramblings of the recent tragic school shootings.
Charlie Manson makes better sense than our sick government, but the American public has, for the most part, come to its senses.
Now is the time for this lynch-mob mentality to do the same.
The Iraqis can settle their differences without being manipulated by those who themselves are in desperate need of therapy.
The Iraqis cannot do that as long as we are there, allied with and serving the needs of religious crackpots.
I still think it should be a military decision rather than a political one.
But with the Party of God so steadfast in a timetable and Bush Co. just wants an open checkbook, although I know the Party of God is all politics, but I’m starting to consider the “no timetable” as one too.
But should the military men making the decisions be only “yes men” to the administration? Those who question the ‘party line’ have been purged.
No they shouldn’t Ben.
The administration should listen.
So what’s new about that Ken? I thought you served two tours in Nam?
Using Airmen in transport is nothing new. Heck even Medics train on weapons from small to large.
I’m beginning to wonder if you did a “Rip Van Winkle” during your service time.
Congrats, Mr. Williams I see you are coming around.
The problem is if we pull out without doing any of the diplomatic work that needs to be done, there undoubtedly will be greater violence, greater chaos, and a response from the region. It would be like a Samolia (an obscenely failed state) in the middle of the oil producing part of the world – that would undoubtedly have regional consequences which would not be good.
I may have to turn in my liberal card for what I am about to say, but it is my view that the best option of the available bad options is to maintain our pre-surge military presence in Iraq at this time.
My conclusion is based on two underlying assumptions:1) our military does provide some degree of stability to Iraq and2) Bush is unable, unwilling, or insufficiently intellectually capitalized to do the necessary diplomacy work that will be required if we were to pull out.
Not only will regional diplomatic work be required, we have to figure out a way to help Iraq’s government to effectively govern. Bush has no idea on how to do that and so…
Given the above, let’s let the 2008 deomcratic president do the job Bush can’t do.
Well said Steven. The most obvious change in strategy would be to start some kind of diplomacy. But these idiots have made such a mess over there that they have to sneak in and out of the country. Even if Bush is not a diplomat(which we all know he is not) he has access to some of the best diplomats this country has ever known. But for some strange reason he doesn’t listen to what they have to say. Even James Baker who has served this country well and is a card carrying Republican. Bush has isolated himself from the brightest in his owm party. Thats why the Bushie’s baffle me so much. Who exactly does this guy represent? Is being a man of faith that important to you people that no other qualifications matter?
Okay Mike, I have a question.
Just who are you going to do this diplomacy with?
The Al Quaeda Terrorists? The Iranian Controlled Shiite Militia? How about the former Ba’ath party members?
Let me be the first to suggest that Democratic Party Leadership go into the depths of these strongholds, go in and be Diplomatic.
Or we can finish training the Iraqi Army and Police, let the Iraqi government get stable and let the Iraqi’s go medieval on this terrorists.
Any thoughts?
“Or we can finish training the Iraqi Army and Police, let the Iraqi government get stable and let the Iraqi’s go medieval on this terrorists.
Any thoughts?”
How many decades should it take to do the training? By “go medeival” are you referring to what we hanged Saddam for?
How bout Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and the other countries that have interests to the peaceful conclusion of this conflict? To continue to isolate yourselves after 4 years of war is questionable at best. The Baker-Hamilton study group recommended engaging the neighbors. Why does this administration continue to do things the same way and expect a different result? Then say we need to give it time to work. 4 years is not enough? Do you need 6 or 8 or 10? If a timetable is disasterous now please tell us when it would be acceptable.
“So what’s new about that Ken? I thought you served two tours in Nam?
Using Airmen in transport is nothing new. Heck even Medics train on weapons from small to large.
I’m beginning to wonder if you did a “Rip Van Winkle” during your service time.”
What is so hard for you to understand / rationalize–
I wasn’t disputing / objecting to the policy I was recognizing the fact that during the Viet Nam war — we in the Air Force were in a position (by virtue of having weapons assigned to us) to help our base security and the nearby Army post to help provide for our defense—- — and willing to do so —
If we had been asked / told to join our Army buddies in slogging through the rice paddies as part of an offensive we would have
I was relating a personal, somewhat humorous story of my experience there, at the moment ‘I’ll blind em while you hit em with a shovel’ was kind of funny but also made a lot of sense –
you choose to make everything an argument — you don’t have the capability of recognizing when some one is on your side ?
Talk about being asleep at the switch !!!
Mike…please..Iran and Syria with peaceful conclusions…oh man…
Saudi Arabia won’t do anything but contribute money, they have a history of non-military engagement even when they need to defend themselves.
Syria is a warehouse of terrorists and their organization. You can talk to the figurehead leader, then what?
Iran, yeah okay. They haven’t issued a Visa so that any Congress Person can get in in the last 10 years. They are also making and supply the weapons that Shiite militia are using in Iraq that are killing our troops.
And you forgot the Al Quaeda factor. Exactly who are you going to talk to? They are in separate cells. There only purpose is to destroy infidels and their supporters. How are you going negotiate with people that want to destroy you by their very ideology?
I’ll wait Mike…go ahead, give me your plan of Diplomacy.
Yo Ken…get a clue. The Airmen are being asked to drive transport trucks and to other ancillary functions. They are not being asked to do direct Combat. The only direct Combat troops we have in the Air Force are Pilots. The rest like Security Police, Combat Controllers and etc. are trained to use defensive postures,not offensive.
Like I said, you fell asleep during your service.
“The Al Quaeda Terrorists? The Iranian Controlled Shiite Militia? How about the former Ba’ath party members?”
Sorry, thought this would be obvious. The diplomatic efforts would have to be directed toward Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia – these neighbors have vested interests (both state and ethnic) in the outcome in Iraq. This was recommended by the bi-partisan Iraq Study Group.
Helping the Iraqi government function is a seperate problem and I’m not sure what we can do about that. I hesitate to say so, but that may have to be resolved by the Iraqi people — which may only happen after several years of civil war.
Ahhh as usual you miss the point —
As an Airman in Viet Nam — the point you missed (beyond the humor in my incident) we would do anything asked of us to help the war effort – drive a truck, fire a gun, slog through rice paddies — most everyone else here probably got it
You are so blind in your anger and rage that you only see what you want to see ….
So. 146 people killed in Wednesday’s multiple car bombings in Baghdad. Here are the pictures of the debacle.
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2007/04/18/world/20070418iraqbb_slideshow_1.html
More civilians are now dying than before the start of the ’surge.’ And with this uncontested bombing by the Sunnis, it’s hard to imagine the Shi’ite death squads are going to remain quiet for long–particularly since al Sadr withdrew his representatives from the Parliament.
Surge is done. Over. Kaput. Harry Reid is right: this thing is lost. Time to get out while we still can.
Let’s see when a terrorist targets innocent civilians then the reasoning according to the Liberal Left is to pull out right?
Okay, then the people of London should pull out from the U.K., because they were attacked. The people in NYC should pull out because they were attacked by terrorists.
You know what the motto is of Al Quaeda is don’t you CF2K. Kill all infidels and those who support them. Do you think the terrorists will stop once we leave?
I have some swamp land I would like to sell you then.
The reason you have that swamp land is due to the way in which you reason.
I was preserving a natural wildlife habitat ed.
What, for loons?
LOL
Republican,
False analogies. The U.S. is an occupying power being fought by locally-based insurgents. Al Qaeda is a bit player in the Iraq; always has been, Dick Cheney’s lies aside.
It is impossible for us to defeat the insurgents in Baghdad. Period. And our remaining there is killing more Iraqis by the day
Not only that: you know the recruiting strategy of Al Qaeda, don’t you, Republican? Encourage an American presence in the Middle East, to forment war and jihad. By staying in Iraq, and doing just what they predicted we’d do, we’re the best recruiting tool they’ve got.
Given your total lack of understanding about what’s going on, you may want to hang on to that swampland: it may be the only place you and the rest of the Right Wing fever swamp will be welcome once Iraq totally collapses.
But CF2K, your side wants to negotiate…
I think your Democratic Leadership should just march right into those neighborhoods and negotiate with the radicals, the militia and Al Qaeda.
Actually, the policy of Al Qaeda is to have all American presence removed. Just key word Bin Laden if you don’t believe me.
I would say you failed “understanding terrorism 101.”
I am sure that they’re enjoying the way in which you reason.
The misnomer “terrorist” acts as a catalyst in altering the brain’s ability to reason properly.
Oh I forgot Ed, you think Palestinians are freedom fighters.
Like the time they were freedom fighting in the Olympic Games right?
Republican,
Taking Bin Laden at his word? Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well?
Question: what serves Bin Laden’s interests better:
-Having the U.S. tied up in Iraq, causing civilian deaths, and acting as an impetus for Al Qaeda recruiting; or
-Having the U.S. leave Iraq, which then will be run by al Sistani and al Sadr, Shi’ites both, both of whom are hostile to the Sunni Al Qaeda?
Your ignorance of the larger picture, Republican, and your fuzzy picture of how things work, seem to keep you from responding substantively to the points that I was making.
Ignore what doesn’t fit, and fall back on Google: that’s “Republican 101.”
Your Rumsfeld said: “You fight with the army you have, not the one you’d like to have.”
Conveniently changed your mind?
How much does Bin Lade pay you CF2K?
You would be a perfect propagandist for any terrorist-minded organization.
Actually Friedemann, Rumsfeld statement is more true than not true.
A wise thing to say? Probably not.
If I had the choice of an Army I wished to have and one I currently had, which one would I take?
Too bad defeatists and terror supporters like yourself choose to use it as a talking point. It shows your inability to digest statements with a grain of salt and treat as an insignificant event.
Instead, you’ll ride that dead pony until it rots beneath your saddle.
Oh, No, The “terror” bug just chomped down and took another big bite.
Republican,
So, run out of arguments, have you? Guess that makes you the ultimate Right Wing dead-ender ’round these parts.
As soon as Republican starts singing the same old “Democrats = Terrorists” tune, he’s basically admitted that he’s got nothing.
How’s it feel to be a nothing who has no better argument than to impute make-believe actions to CF2K, Republican?
I think the argument “support Bush’s plan, or you’re with the terrorists” has worked real well so far.
Oh, and given the apparent lack of interest on the part of your “President” in tracking down or capturing Bin Laden, I’d say that the Republican Party has proven itself to be the most reliable base of support for Al Qaeda in the American political landscape.
Been saving that Al Qaeda money for a rainy day, Republican?
“How much does Bin Lade pay you CF2K?
You would be a perfect propagandist for any terrorist-minded organization” – republican
Remember on Happy Days when Fonzie jumped the shark?
Ken, I was stationed at the Army post a Nha Trang ‘71/’72′, beautiful country there. Spent quite a bit of time on the beach, when I wasn’t flying out on missions.
CF2K,
You party is the one that wants to do Diplomacy with Iran.
Do yourself a favor and email Tom Lantos (D) of California and ask him how many years he’s been trying to get a Visa to enter Iran for talks.
Watch the documentaries with Pakistan’s President and listen to his words about how he says in one sentence that he cannot go in after the terrorists encampments and how they do not go into Afghanistan. Then in the very next statement, he tells how Taliban and their supporters go into Afghanistan on raids and he can’t do anything about it. huh?
But C2FK keep repeating your Democratic mantra of making plans and then doing nothing about it. Keep repeating about how your party is a party of change, then get into Congress and do the same old tired tactics they used to.
Keep on stating in your collective shrill voices how you are going to do this and that and have no plan to do so.
Leadership without a plan – The Democrats, no thank you.
ddub,
My thoughts exactly.
Republican,
Digging the hole, digging the hole–the Republican Party. No thank you.
Republican:
I was Security Police (81170) during the Reagan administration, and I most certainly learned offensive techniques.
As usual, you do not know what you are talking about.
The misnomer “terrorist” worked real well for 40 years for the Israelis, but the Internet has changed all that.
Now, first the truth about the Palestinians came out with the Iraqis not far behind.
What happened to Lebanon showed the world who is “terrorizing” everybody. Especially after leaving 4 million cluster bombs, shipped from the United States, and strewn all over Lebanon as the Israelis left.
Actually, setting a withdrawal timetable is more logical than the “surge”, which seems to be increasing the violence.
Plus it has 3 additional advantages* It could reduce violence over ALL of Iraq — the “surge” is only in Baghdad.* It reduces the U.S. “occupation” factor, which is fueling insurgents.* It puts non-Iraqi al-Qaeda operatives at a disadvantage.
Details at,’Iraq & the Logic of Timetables’http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html
So much for training the Iraqis so “when they stand up, we’ll stand down”. Even the military isnt relying on THAT strategy anymore.
Since it is always “cut and paste” day at the WE…
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/nation/...
Training Iraqi troops no longer driving force in U.S. policyBy Nancy A. YoussefMcClatchy Newspapers
WASHINGTON – Military planners have abandoned the idea that standing up Iraqi troops will enable American soldiers to start coming home soon and now believe that U.S. troops will have to defeat the insurgents and secure control of troubled provinces.
Training Iraqi troops, which had been the cornerstone of the Bush administration’s Iraq policy since 2005, has dropped in priority, officials in Baghdad and Washington said.
No change has been announced, and a Pentagon spokesman, Col. Gary Keck, said training Iraqis remains important. “We are just adding another leg to our mission,” Keck said, referring to the greater U.S. role in establishing security that new troops arriving in Iraq will undertake.
But evidence has been building for months that training Iraqi troops is no longer the focus of U.S. policy. Pentagon officials said they know of no new training resources that have been included in U.S. plans to dispatch 28,000 additional troops to Iraq. The officials spoke only on the condition of anonymity because they aren’t authorized to discuss the policy shift publicly. Defense Secretary Robert Gates made no public mention of training Iraqi troops on Thursday during a visit to Iraq.
In a reflection of the need for more U.S. troops, the Pentagon decided earlier this month to increase the length of U.S. Army tours in Iraq from 12 to 15 months. The extension came amid speculation that the U.S. commander there, Army Gen. David Petraeus, will ask that the troop increase be maintained well into 2008.
CF2K
Like or not he is “our” President, not just the bloggers’ your speaking to
Fortunatley we have a constitution that allows us to disagree with him — as you so eloquently do …I don’t have the wherewithal to do the research that you do — but you make some interesting points in supporting your views —
Don’t fall in to the trap — of being bated and arguing with idiots —- the audience may not be able to tell which is which (No, I am not calling you an idiot)
I do agree with this statement of yours:”So, run out of arguments, have you? Guess that makes you the ultimate Right Wing dead-ender ’round these parts.
As soon as ———- starts singing the same old “Democrats = Terrorists” tune, he’s basically admitted that he’s got nothing.”
In the absence of the ability to prove a point, narcissists will resort to name calling, nit picking, changing the subject ….
I read yesterday that the best way to handle em is to politely agree with them – they will crawl back into the corner with the cookie of validation you give them and be appeased so the rest can resume an intelligent discussion –
Independent,
Of course you were trained in offensive techniques. Part of the Security Police function was to repel attacks on a base and provide a clear zone in which the base to operate.
However, they were never trained to commit to an infantry style of battle in which long term engagement with an enemy would occur. Security Police are not trained like Marine or Army recon to do covert missions deep into enemy territory.
I stand by my statements.
When I was on board that undisclosed aircraft, part of my job was to relay to operations the location of enemies on the ground and in the air. I assure you, they did not send in the security police to take care of the situation described.
Repub, you said: “The only direct Combat troops we have in the Air Force are Pilots. The rest like Security Police, Combat Controllers and etc. are trained to use defensive postures,not offensive.”
Then, you contradict yourself and say: “Of course you were trained in offensive techniques.”
You seem to be basing your opinionon some limited knowledge, such as knowing what ABGD school is. However, I was trained in techinques that may allow teams toassault and capture an enemy air base. No, it certainly isn’t “infantry style of battle”; but it is an offensive. You were incorrect in your above quoted statement, and you can’t weasel out of it by limiting your statement to some “situation”. You should just shut up if you do not know the facts.
Steve
That was Camp Sheridan if I remember correctly. I remember going there to play IM softball, and I worked at the AF NCO Club with my flight line NCO boss on my off time in the stores / supply room — we’d go over and trade AF Pilot Sunglasses and “Bomber” jackets with the guys at the ARMY supply depot for fresh milk, fresh bologna, steaks etc …. our section was one of the best fed on the AF side — you guys had all the good stuff we had to hook and crook to get them — when I first got there we drank powdered milk, ate powdered eggs, took cold showers 90% of the time …. butttt weren’t the beaches great, was 100P alley still there? Our barracks were right behind the Special Forces Headquarters area — used to walk over to thier camp — they had an indoor movie theater and the best food at the enlisted / NCO club — was a real eye opener walking over — had to pass the mortar pits — brought one back to reality for a moment —
Was there from 67-69 …. extended once — wasn’t allowed to again, thought I was having too much fun (kidding) — beaches, town etc …. felt a little guilty when I left that I had a relatively good time — while the Army etc … was carrying the brunt of the war effort —- didn’t talk about it much the first ten years ago or so —
Google Nha Trang — amazing how much has changed — Nha Trang reverted back to the recreation area it had been before — but now there’s big hotels and resorts along beach road — some remnants of the Air base remains
Stop arguing over semantics Independent. You know what is meant by direct Combat related offensive strikes and limited defensive perimeter settings that can utilize some offensive techniques.
A medic defending a patient can use offensive techniques as well, but it doesn’t make him/her a combatant.
And capturing an enemy Air Base is fine during the Cold War era during a scenario where all stops are pulled and everything goes.
So Independent, just how many Air Bases do you take over since then?
How many Air Bases has the Air Force taken over through direct combat since then utilizing Security Police?
Give me a number Independent,any number, something?
Republican,
“Gates mentioned the word “debate” as being positive, not setting a deadline.”
That’s what the 2nd paragraph of the header post says.
You were incorrect in your above quoted statement, and you can’t weasel out of it by limiting your statement to some “situation”. You still were wrong, and now you want to spin. Keep it up. Your credibility is gone. Everyone, have a nice weekend.
Can’t handle the truth eh Independent? That Security Police training in the Cold War era was meant to be utilized in the extreme instances of an all out war.
The offensive operations by the AF Security Police were never intended to engage in offensive operations of a ground war such as Iraq.
Have a nice day and thanks for your service to your country.
Yeah Independent
The thread isn’t about wether Gates is undermining the troops — it’s all about you : (tongue in cheek — finger wagging — hah)
just how many Air Bases do you take over since then? yeah how many — huh huh?
or maybe it’s about the Air Force:
“How many Air Bases has the Air Force taken over through direct combat since then utilizing Security Police?”
or maybe it’s about the posterwho said this:
“When I was on board that undisclosed aircraft, part of my job was to relay to operations the location of enemies on the ground and in the air. I assure you, they did not send in the security police to take care of the situation described.”
So quit playing with the semantics –
I’m pretty sure though it’s not about a war and the politics fought 40 years ago
Thanks Indy
I remember going out of the post front gate leaving, and usually coming back on via the back gate, manned by a couple ARVN’s. Just about got shot once by them, the post had gone on alert, and the motorcycle driver refused to stop, so I jumped off the back, and the driver then turned around. Guess he thought I had his back! I took my R&R there, had been stationed at Camp Evans & Camp Eagle off of the DMZ by Hue And Way. From Nha Trang, I flew all over the country, as a door gunner on a Huey. Do you remember a little place not far from the Beach, think it was across from it? I’m thinking it was an officers’ compound.
Republican,
“Actually, the policy of Al Qaeda is to have all American presence removed.”
WRONG!
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html“A date certain for American withdrawal also would put non-Iraqi al-Qaeda operatives – who number only an estimated five percent of the armed insurgency – in a tighter fix. Without the United States to point to, al-Qaeda would find it tougher to recruit jihadists and would likely face military pressure from Iraqi nationalists fed up with foreign interference.
That is why al-Qaeda leaders view Bush’s open-ended war in Iraq as crucial to their long-range plans for spreading their radical ideology throughout the Muslim world. As “Atiyah,” one of Osama bin Laden’s top lieutenants, explained in a Dec. 11, 2005, letter, “prolonging the war is in our interest.”
[To read the “prolonging the war” passage from the Atiyah letter at the Web site of West Point's Combating Terrorism Center, click here http://www.ctc.usma.edu/harmony/CTC-AtiyahLetter.pdf and then scroll down to the bottom of page 16 and the top of page 17.]“
ken,
“The cookie of validation”–I like that. Good one. It gives Republican something to dip in his milk.
Steve
The Beach was huge 20-30 miles — there was a MAC V or III compound across Beach road — real close to town. I wasn’t an officer then We hung out at a beach bar — next to a bar that was run by the ROK’s (Koreans) — use to play volley ball with and had our asses handed to us regularly always with a big toothed grin — the ROKs were awesome ..
Worked grave shift doing pre-flights for morning launches of EC-47’s — got off around 7am — grabbed our bathing suits headed for the beach — slept / ate there a lot — at curfew around 7-8 PM headed back to the base …
Our barracks was close to the AF helo area that had a few Huey’s — is that where you took off from or did you have your own tarmac on your side?
Speaking of almost getting shot — was driving a drunk NCO back to his villa downtown(one of the grave shift jobs was to provide transportation for those NCO’s going off shift and anyone who might need a ride from the clubs …. had another airman in the back of the pickup riding shot gun — the drunk NCO next to me unable to provide reasonably coherent directiosn — meandering about the villa area we were behind the MAC V compound — street lights were a 60 watt bulb every 2-300 yards — out of the shadowy bushes comes this ARVN soldier I guess doing perimeter guard duty carrying a weapon that looked like a machine gun – as he approaches the truck the guy riding shot gun in back takes the safety off the M-16 with a click that sounded like a firecracker going off — the ARVN drops to one knee, shoves his gun into the open cab door on my side and begins grunting something in Viet Namese — with a panicky what do I do next look — I immediatley began a rosary, pledge of allegiance worried that he was VC — after a few seconds (seemed like hours) he smiled — stood and waved us by — my closest brush with anything that resembled combat — I can only imagine how tough a job you and your army comrades had, confronting situations much more hostile than that, like that all the time, always on edge — I know we in the AF were glad you were nearby
Ken, Wasn’t it Camp McCormick? Amazing, until just now I coldn’t think of the name of the compound!
Cosmos,
I still see your wagging the dog to make the tail move.
Nice try, but no cigar.
Bingo — Camp M it was …. or MacDonald
I must be thinking of the old Fort Sheridan near Chicago
Steve,Was it Vung Tau? Outside Saigon? The other one was China beach outside DaNang.
I was at Vung Tau with some friends who flew Ranch hand (agent orange) missions for a little “relaxation”. We flew over the beach and dropped water ballons there. Big mess, big trouble, hehehe.
Ken,I used to pick up or drop off munitions from DaNamg to the navel dock downtown. Came back with a spear sticking out the side of the duece and a half one time. Another was at night when my shotgun yelled stop. There was a mine in the middle of the road, and we were carrying clusters. Changed my shorts about an hour later.
“Ranch Hand” haven’t heard that term in a long time — we had 1-2 of the what? C-123’s twin tail prop trash haulers we called em — didn’t find out til much later thet were doing Agent Orange
So – JM it was you with the ballons — (shake of the fist and a 1 finger salute to you) neener neener you missed me
y’all did some scary heroic things — thanks
It was the Mac V compound. And, I couldn’t swear to the name being Camp McCormick, or camp McDonald, (but I think there would have been some jokes about a camp McDonald!) I and a friend crashed into a party at the Mac V compound. They had a gourmet set up, and the prettiest women in Nha Trang at their call. Wasn’t long until we were thrown out! I was by myself one night, and got mobbed by some cowboys that completely surrounded the lumbretta (little 3 wheller), the drive wouldn’t take off, and they were all grabbing at me, so I pulled out my switch blade, made a few swings, and they backed off. And I made the driver de de mau!Another time our driver wasn’t taking us to where we wanted to go, and one of the guys put a 45 up to his head, and he complied.I almost never maintained curfew, hence the back gate! One time, I stayed out all night in town, after spending the day at the beach, and when I came back the next morning found out the camp had went on red alert. Someone had reported an American being swept out, and everyone thought I was dead! Got a little heat for that one.
Yes, we used the air field, and had a hangar there. I used to be a helicopter mechanic, then got assigned to be a door gunner for some time.
Steve — scary stuff — several cabs / lumbretta’s with GI’s got blown up by sappers (?) while I was there an AF bus too
The curfew thing was kind of selectively adhered to — as long as you made your duty calls, you didn’t get much crap —
I never met the cream of the crop ladies my self — maybe 2nd – 3rd tier — I do fondly remember the mama sans that strolled the beach with their baskets of fresh pinapple and fruits who would sit with you, carve up the pineapple — one used to stop, sell her wares and play tic-tac-toe with you — always was worth the small piaster (?) TIP. I think I have a few of the old scripts and some piasters in the archives — and on my refrigerator (motivation?) is a pic of me in my AF pilot sunglasses in my bathing suit at the beach, all young and buff with my arm around a beautiful young VN woman in a bikini — if I remember I had to give some P notes for her to take the pic with me –
“neener neener you missed me “Damn! Thought we hit everybody:-)
We lost one 123 in ‘66. We flew out to look for the wreckage. I freaked when I saw a B52 dropping 750’s on the jungle. We were at 5000′ and could feel the blasts even up there. Some scary s**t indeed.
We used to fly to Saigon and spent a few nights at the (brain fart) International. Kobe steaks, some of the most beautiful women I have never seen (gotta protect myself:-), and imported bands from Japan, Europe and even a couple from the ststes. And I was a freakin’ two-striper!
Republican,
“I still see your wagging the dog to make the tail move.”
Translation: Republican is UNABLE to defend his opinion with facts and/or logic.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html“Helping al-QaedaU.S. intelligence analysts have long understood that Bush’s Iraq strategy is playing into al-Qaeda’s hands.”
The PNAC plan does not call for leaving.
That’s how Cosmos classifies winning an argument. He makes a statement no one will agree to, then states “he wins” when the opposition can’t defend some sort of hypothetical situation that Cosmos creates in his mind as ‘correct.’
Reads like psychopathic rantings Cosmos.
Cosmos line is the U.N. is all powerful, support the terrorists because they are smarter and generally anything that is anti-U.S.
Anyone who gives creedence to Consortium News is a sheep.Looks like sedition is coming from harry reid on down.
“Impeach traitorous Robert Gates.”
Yep Fleettwood, Cosmos constantly uses Websites whose owners are well-known “impeach-Bush” campaigners. (realclimate and Consortium News, etc.) Sam Parry even went after the elder Bush. True Liberal Websites to the core.
Republican,
So you admit that you have NO facts and/or logic to support your opinion: “Actually, the policy of Al Qaeda is to have all American presence removed.”?
Heh, whatever…
I wont waste time bothering to correct what you falsely claim I believe.
And WHY do Republican and fleet attack West Point’s credibility?
Does fleet also believe that West Point is guilty of “sedition”, and people are “sheep” to consider them a credible source?
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html“[To read the “prolonging the war” passage from the Atiyah letter at the Web site of West Point's Combating Terrorism Center, click here http://www.ctc.usma.edu/harmony/CTC-AtiyahLetter.pdf and then scroll down to the bottom of page 16 and the top of page 17.]“
FYI
Just got these 2 clips (see next entry for 2nd newsclip) from MOAA (Military Officer Association: ( I suspect the enlisted Associations were involved also).
Hate seeing them buried so deep in the blog (may post them tomorrow – too)— but if you feel appropriate write your rep as the first article asks:
MOAA Storms Hill for Troops, Survivors, Retirees
MOAA Council and Chapter Presidents from the 50 states and Puerto Rico, accompanied by members of the national Board of Directors and headquarters staff, swarmed Capitol Hill on April 18 to visit representatives’ and senators’ offices on key MOAA legislative initiatives.This year, the “Hill stormers” focused on three main issues, supporting efforts to:
Oppose disproportional TRICARE fee increases proposed by Defense leaders
Fix Survivor Benefit Plan (SBP) inequities for survivors of members who died of service-connected causes and “Greatest Generation” retirees
Authorize a larger pay raise for the troops than the 3% proposed in the President’s budget
MOAA representatives carried a wealth of information supporting those goals, including information brochures outlining the problems and the needed fixes.
Hill-stormers received very positive feedback from most legislators, and we’ve already seen a jump in the number of cosponsors for MOAA-supported bills on these topics. Check your representatives’ and senators’ cosponsorship status for the bills listed below:
H.R. 579 and S. 604 – Protect against disproportionate health fee increasesH.R. 1589 and S. 935 – Repeal the SBP-DIC offsetH.R. 784 (and S. 935) – Accelerate paid up coverage for SBP to October 1, 2007
Enter your ZIP code in the applicable box for each bill to send your legislator a MOAA-suggested “please cosponsor” or “thank you for cosponsoring” letter, as applicable.
Second –
Walter Reed Update – from the same MOAA — take note of the bipartisan effort. We need to stay on our legislators to insure the issues don’t get lost in the shuffle:
Walter Reed Review Group Publishes Findings
The Independent Review Group (IRG), appointed by the Secretary of Defense to investigate conditions at Walter Reed and Bethesda medical centers, has published its final report on their web site, offering extensive recommendations to overhaul care delivery and disability retirement systems for wounded servicemembers.The bipartisan IRG was co-chaired by Reagan-era Army Secretary John Marsh and Clinton-era Army and VA Secretary Togo West and included seven other distinguished military and civic leaders. Its report minces no words, describing significant shortcomings in care delivery, leadership, policy and oversight.While it found first-class care from the time of the injury through the time of inpatient hospitalization, the system broke down when the wounded members transitioned to outpatient status.The group emphasized what co-chairman West described at a hearing last Saturday as “the horrors of the disability review process,” in which seriously impaired members are given lowball disability ratings and separated from service rather than being medically retired with health and other benefits. The report also highlighted problems with:
Qualification and training of case managers
Inadequate consideration, training and care for members with traumatic brain injuries (TBI), burns, amputations and PTSD
Inadequate – and declining – mental/behavioral health staffingAccessibility of advanced follow-on care for amputees outside military facilities
Lack of electronic interface between military and VA systems
A “perfect storm” of BRAC, outsourcing and funding shortfalls that has crippled services at Walter Reed, while a planned transition to Bethesda faces roadblocks
Unique challenges for Guard/Reserve members in a system that categorizes them differently than active duty members and raises potential for differential treatment
Assistance to family members
Inadequate housing and maintenance of facilities for outpatients and family members
Serious leadership failures to fix these shortcomings and more
The IRG report’s recommendations include:
Assigning each wounded member a single primary physician and case manager
Establishing a center of excellence for TBI and PTSD research and training
Creative recruiting and compensation plans to address military staffing shortages
A complete overhaul of the disability evaluation system to ensure fairness and consistency
Acceleration of transition from Walter Reed to Bethesda and Ft. Belvoir
on April 14 before the President’s Commission on Care for America’s Returning Wounded Warriors – a separate 9-member commission appointed by the President to review similar issues – co-chairman West spoke eloquently on what current treatment of wounded warriors says about the country.
“Who are we as a nation?” he asked, observing that, on this score, “We won’t like the answer.”"How long will we take to act?” he asked, observing that there have been four similar reports in the last 10 years that had identified and recommended fixes for the same problems the IRG found, and yet the problems haven’t been fixed.
MOAA shares that extreme frustration. There are plenty of people pointing out problems with coordinating between service programs, transferring facilities from Walter Reed to Bethesda/Ft. Belvoir, coordinating between DoD and VA programs, between the Administration and Congress, between the House and Senate, and between congressional committees.
There’s no end of people pointing at somebody else as the primary source of the problem.
It’s long past time, on the issue of taking care of the Nation’s war-wounded, for leaders in all services, departments, branches, and chambers to get past the rhetoric and finger-pointing and do what it takes to work together and get these problems fixed — now.
Interestingly enough, I sent a letter to the MOAA, asking if they had any ratings for the legislators — attempting to measure the extent of support they have for the legislation to help or remove help from service people –
Surprisingly, I got an email from a retired vice admiral, president or vp of the association in essence saying — we don’t want to do that for fear of alienating the same legislators we are trying to influence and work with ..
Seems some of our retired military officers in postions of leadership in DC — need some good old NCO needas to take them out behind the hangar and … well ahhh reeducate them ….
“Republican” is a Zionist Israeli, or sympathizer following the hard right Likud line. Sounds too hard core to be anything else.
Republican thinks this website is owned by “well-known “impeach-Bush” campaigners”.
‘Combating Terrorism Center at West Point’http://www.ctc.usma.edu/
What’s a good label for an American who thinks that?
Macklin?
Consortium News and Real Climate are Cosmos, don’t even try and deny that their basic model is impeach bush, anti bush and etc.
What? JM arguing about sources? Say it isnt so….
Consortium News BASED their Al Qaeda opinion on info from ‘Combating Terrorism Center at West Point’http://www.ctc.usma.edu/
Who/what is the SOURCE of your Al Qaeda opinion?
And you are showing DISRESPECT to all of the highly credentialed, active climate scientists listed here,http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?cat=10
The scientists can have their due at real climate. I was just pointing out the motive for creating the Web Site in the first place and that, no one can deny.
What comment about Al Qaeda do you refer to Cosmos?
And the ctc site, yeah okay. You gave me a link to the Web Site. Those “independent” reporters at Consortium were forced at gunpoint to write the opinions exactly from Website at West Point?
Or did the Consortium reporters use their own Sammy, I mean Mr. Blank…
“Consortium News and Real Climate are Cosmos, don’t even try and deny that their basic model is impeach bush, anti bush and etc.”
. . . and your point is?
We’re undermining, as in burying, the troops, in Iraq as it is just by being in Iraq. Remember your god and master, bush “the decider”, declared victory a few years ago. What the hell are we doing still there if the war is over?
O, right: fighting “terrorism” in a country ruled by despots and tinpot dictators for over 2000 years. Funny how a country ruled by one of those tinpots, Saddam, who kept al-quida out of the country because they didn’t get along, suddenly has over 5% of it’s scumbag ragtag terrorists composed of al-quida.
We done real good, ain’t we. Pass them corn squeezings, jed, I feel another belt of redneck fever coming on. What? you had ta make em outta taters cause the corn costs 2 much cause of them ethenol, s**t. Shoots, I hates them commie tater squeezins.
hehehehehe Walker!
Not sure how to respond to that J M, especially the last paragraph. You’ve been watch the Country Channel a bit too much.
Republican,
“What comment about Al Qaeda do you refer to Cosmos?”
Upthread at 1:58 PMhttp://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/is_gates_underm.html#comment-67141840
According to official U.S. government sources, the September 11 attacks were consistent with the mission statement of al-Qaeda. The overarching motivation for the present al-Qaeda campaign was set out in a 1998 fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Abu-Yasir Rifa’i Ahmad Taha, Shaykh Mir Hamzah, and the (Amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh, Fazlur Rahman).[84]
The fatwa lists three “crimes and sins” committed by the Americans:
* U.S. military occupation of the Arabian Peninsula.* U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people.* U.S. support of Israel.The fatwa states that the United States:
* Plunders the resources of the Arabian Peninsula.* Dictates policy to the rulers of those countries.* Supports abusive regimes and monarchies in the Middle East, thereby oppressing their people.* Has military bases and installations upon the Arabian Peninsula, which violates the Muslim holy land, in order to threaten neighboring Muslim countries.
you can read the rest of it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks#Osama_bin_Laden
Republican,
You need to update your Al Qaeda info. Conditions have changed in Iraq the last few years… recruitment, etc.
I see Cosmos…I give you the fatwa from Al Queda, Bin Laden in regard to the reasons why they wanted Americans out and you say
“You need to update your Al Qaeda info.”
Who came first Cosmos, Bin Laden or Al Qaeda in Iraq.
Cosmos will never admit he’s wrong, he’ll tap dance and skate around.
Republican,
So you believe that Al Qaeda does not want to recruit new members, and grow stronger?
Whatever…
“Cosmos will never admit he’s wrong, he’ll tap dance and skate around.”
Can he borrow your tap shoes and skates ?