When anybody campaigns for president in the South, he needs to have a ready answer to the question about whether it’s OK for a state Capitol to fly the Confederate battle flag. On Tuesday in Alabama, GOP front-runner Rudy Giuliani said it’s up to Alabamans: “We have different sensitivities, and at different times we are going to come to different decisions, and I think that is best left up to the states.” That surely played well with the audience, but would it have killed Giuliani to call the flag what it is — an offensive symbol best left to history? By calling it a local issue, Giuliani did what John McCain did in South Carolina in 2000, when he waited until he was safely out of the race to say that state’s Confederate battle flag should come down — cowardice that McCain later said he regretted.
It’s also uncomfortable to see anybody address a racial issue by touting states’ rights, once code used by defenders of segregation.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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165 Comments
The Confederate Flag should be retired to a museum.
It’s symbolism doesn’t reflect any worthwhile traditions.
XXX I still remember one of the conversations from the first meet-up at Watson park. And your feelings about the “war of Northern Aggression”, I will have my glasses clean, several cigarettes and lighter at hand and await your opinion on this subject. I am sure it will be taking me back to the time I lived in Southern Oklahoma and became use to the term “Damn Yankee”.
As for me, that war was over a century ago and I have not problem with the “Stars and Bars”. Part of my heritage was not in this country yet and the other part was wishing all you damn fool Whites would kill each other so we could get the good land back! Hee Joke on you… there was oil under them lands…
“It’s symbolism doesn’t reflect any worthwhile traditions”
Republican,I can assure you you’re just wrong on that one. Maybe it doesn’t mean anything to you, but it is part of the proud heritage of many Americans.
The Southern Cross will never be “retired to a museum”.
I agree with Repug. treason and defending slavery and bigotry aren’t worthwhile traditions
Tom Paine, I’m amazed at how many people are just ignorant when it comes to the history of the War of Northern Aggression.
Folks, I know we’re going to have a piling on on this thread. Unfortunately, I have to work today so I’m not going to be available till about 4pm to carry on this discussion.
Since the North won the war, why is this still such an issue for you more than 100 years after the fact? You won! Why must you still denigrate our heritage? We and our flag are no threat to you. We’re proud Americans just like you.
Nobody in their right mind believes “The South shall rise again”. The North took our land, raped our women, killed our children, destroyed our culture, and starved our people.
We’ve forgiven you for that, but we’ll never forget.
If there is a national call for retiring the flag as a racist symbol, imho, there should be a national retiring of racism. That will never happen.
Coming from calif, the further south I go, the more racism I find. It is not something I expected. What surprised me was the racism in the south is different than the racism in California. I think you would have to experience both to understand what I’m saying.
But, imho again, Leave the flag up to the states to decide. They’re the ones who place whatever meaning they want on its presence. If the people of the state want it down, the state will get the picture.
Actually, I know quite a bit about the civil war. How is it not treason to not like the results of the of an election and go off and start your own country. What would have happened if Al Gore in 2000 had decided to get New England New York to proclaim him president of a region and began attacking federal bases? While the south might have cried about being invaded calling it the War of Northern aggression what do you call Lee’s invasion of Maryland and Penn. Bragg’s invasion of Kentucky , Fr Sumter, Price’s invasion of Missouri, the sacking of Lawrence, Morgan’s raids in Ohio. and what was R.E Lee pardoned for by President Carter? Why did the south secede in the first place, because they thought Lincoln would restrict slavery? And states began flying the confederate flag on state houses and on state flags in response to integration in the schools during the 40’s and 50’s. But enough of this argument time for work.
Tom Paine, let’s not forget who started the War of Northern Aggression.
Yo — that war is over —– for the most part the confederate flag is a museum piece — those that chose to display it have a right to do so —-
let’s not forget who started the War of Northern Aggression.Posted by: XXX | April 12, 2007 at 05:26 AM
You mean when the Confederacy fired on Fort Sumter?
As to that flag…
People who say it’s not a symbol of racism and slavery forget that it was brought back from history’s dustbin in the 1950s as a statement against desegregation.
Yeah, that’s some heritage to be proud of.
One question: How many African-Americans put those little confederate flag stickers on the pickup truck bumpers?
Flying the Confederate Battle Flag is NEVER OK for a state, city or public institution. That flag is no different than flying a Nazi swastica and represents much the same thing. I am proud of the fact that we here in Georgia got rid of that piece of garbage 5 years ago. And our new state flag is just as much a Confederate flag as the racist one it replaced. It is just not the Confederate battle flag. I remember when Wichita South High used to have that flag as the school flag. It was an insult to the school and the city.
And one last thing.
Every time I read that damn phrase “states rights,” my teeth grind. Only PEOPLE have rights. States have powers, and the Constitution of the United States, and the constitutions of the 50 states, was written to limit those powers.
Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and PeopleThe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Tom,States do have rights. While the people are the ones who elect representatives to write laws, levy taxes, et al, it is the state itself, via elected officials, that control what happens in the state.
I suggest you read your own posts:
“Amendment 10 – Powers of the States and PeopleThe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
What about that do you not understand?
JM,
Wow, that’s pretty amazing that you pasted in the POWERS language, and still insist it says RIGHTS.
Go to http://usconstitution.net
Read the entire document. Note every point where it says “power(s)” vs. every point where it says “right(s).”
I’ll close by quoting from the Declaration of Independence, another document you should familiarize yourself with:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed”
And does anyone know what Abe Lincoln wanted to do with them slaves once they were all given their freedom?
And as far as comparing the Confederate flag to the Nazi swastica…..lol
The Confederate Battle Flag, or the Cross of St. Andrew, does not represent simply slavery except in some peoples mistaken minds. It represents the ‘Southern Culture’ in it entirety, many aspects of which would be well for the whole county to adopt.Are we all to immediately turn on a dime and abandon anything someone, somewhere, at any time, decides offends them. There seems to be an endless list of those things anymore. I can understand the ‘me-me-me, I’m important’ attitude some display but why anybody give them any attention I most certainly do not. To those folks I say “Grow up!”
Mark,
The swastika has a rich history that predates the Third Reich by thousands of years. Should we start plastering that symbol on our bumper stickers, t-shirts, and on flags flown over state capitols?
If that’s what you want to do.It’s supposed to be a free country. Unless one is being physically harmed you need to take control of your own emotion and how you react to the many, many things that will confront you throughout your life.It makes life considerably less stressful for everyone involved.
What pisses me off to no end is seeing the Puerto Rico and Mexico flag flying. YOU ARE IN AMERICA!!!
But you know what? We have freedom in this country and they can fly whatever flag they please. The federal gov’t should stay as much out of the state’s business as possible.
Let the damn thing fly. If you are offended by it, think about it as a symbol of their defeat. If you still can’t deal with it, tough sh*t. The world doesn’t revolve around your sensitive sensibilities.
Birds of a feather flock together, but we don’t have to hate each other or try to force any that separation of that.
The Stars and Bars was never about a single issue, as those with an agenda would have it.
I am proud of my Southern heritage. My great-great grandfather served in a Texas Confederate artillery unit. He was not a slave owner. He joined the fight because the Yankees had invaded the South. He was protecting his great state and family from Yankee aggressors. Since a lot of you un-educated Yankees like to refer to our battle flag as “racist” let us not forget that: 1) OLD GLORY was flown on all the slave ships 2)Lincoln practically ran all the African-americans out of Illinois. 3)Congress did not officially end slavery until December 1865, well after Lee surrendered 4)General Lee did not own slaves while Gen Grant did. 5) Lincoln violated the Constitution by forming an army without Congessional authority. 6) The original seven states that formed the Confederacy left due to the unfair taxes- not over slavery. The other six states joined after the illegal invasion of Virginia. 7) Lincoln baited the confederacy into attacking Ft. Sumter just like Johnson’s Gulf of Tonkin. 8) Lawrence was burned after the Redlegs had burned farms in Missouri and murdered the farmers and families and raped and murdered the women.
I proudly fly my battle flag, the true Stars and Bars and the third flag of the Confederacy as the Confederacy was the last true Constitutional government in this nation.
As it so happens, it was on this date, 4/12/1861, that the Confederates began the bombardment of Fort Sumter. Lincoln was told by the new Confederate nation not to resupply the Fort, but he did anyway. To the South’s mind, the resupply was an Act of War (the Fort, after all, was now in the Confederate States of America’s territory). So it begins.
500,000 died in our civil war, but Bush is so afraid he won’t get to kill the Iraqis in their civil war.
What a lame excuse to sacrifice good soldiers for such dark reasoning.
As someone originally from the south and with a majority of my family still there, I have to say that most southerners do not look at the flag as a symbol of slavery and those who fly it usually aren’t flying it as a symbol of their racism. It is a symbol of their history, just like any other symbol we have in the US. I don’t believe that it should be flown on public/gov’t owned buildings because it is not an official flag but as far as personal uses, more power to you.
“…most southerners do not look at the flag as a symbol of slavery…”
The fact is that only 10% of Southerners owned slaves. It was too expensive. You can be sure that the vast majority of Southern troops did not own slaves or did not think they would ever be in a position to own slaves.The war was about the North ramming the “no expansion” of slavery down their throats (states rights), or as Steven Douglas called it, “Popular Sovereignty”.
Time for the black man to weigh in. It seems strange to me why in the year 2007 this is an issue? Regardless of what you believe that flag to stand for, some people view it as link to some of the darkest periods of this country. Whether you believe it stood for segregation, or slavery how can you be proud of either of those things? It has been the flag of many hate groups and otherwise disgusting causes. If you choose to fly it on your front porch thats fine. That tells me all I need to know about the person living in the house. But you should not fly it on gov’t/public buildings. Those buildings represent all of the citizens living in that state. If you offend even one person then it must come down.
The NCAA will not allow Indian mascots but we fly the stars and bars on public buildings? WOW!
Agreed, Mike.
It’s like Germans saying that Nazism is “part of their heritage.”
The swastika is outlawed in modern Germany. Too bad we can’t do the same thing to that symbol of shame in our country: the confederate battle flag.
By the way, the battle flag is NOT the official Confederate flag, which was called the Stars and Bars.
It looked identical to today’s flag of TEXAS.
Big surprise, huh?
My paternal side of the family hails from the south. The poor south. I guess I should say the financially poor from the south. Sharecroppers and whatever. There were a gret many things about the southern culture that was great. Slavery was not one of them. However, when this country was formed, reading the Federalist papers and others, the idea was to have a weak Federal Government and a Strong State Government, almost like a loose confederation of independent states. The Federal push to abolish slavery, though not wrong, was percieved by many as “them sumbitches in Washington should mind their own damn business”The feeling too was that since the states could join the government, that the states could leave the government. Viewpoints of the Federal government and what it meant was much different then than today, and must be looked upon with that in mind. The Federal government was much less intrusive in the day to day lives of it’s people, unlike today when they try to rule everything. This one of the first Major pushes of Federal power to arise. People were fiercely independent, and often held much greater fealty to their state rather than the federal government Some would fight for their livelihood as slaveholders,many would fight for other reasons, including the percieved “invasion” by the North.
Also, consider that the Northern Merchants were manipulating people into war, especially as the south was moving slowly from an agricultural setting to a more industrial. A Great many Northern business did not treat blacks any better, in fact, some cases worse. True, they were free,technically, but were not free in any classical sense, owing everything to their employers.
The war between the states had a gret many causes. Slavery was the one used to sell it to the masses.
Please do not misunderstand. I am not defending slavery. It was wrong. Many served under cruel circumstances, many more died on the terrible jouneys of the slave ships. That is a different argument.
The confederate battle flag symbolizes twoo things to me:1) an entire heritage of the southern states2) A rebellion of federal interference
By the way, I think many colege students use to display it for one reason, a rebellion of any interference
If you offend even one person…
So let’s just dump the first amendment then. Someone somewhere will be offended by something.
I give a rat’s butt about the confederate flag, but I do care about the way the PC crowd is attempting to run the nation.
It’s your right to be offended. Enjoy it and don’t infringe on the rights of others.
BY the way, I do not fly the confederate anything. I fly the flag of the United States of America. I think the civil war ws over a long time ago, and southerners need to get over it.
Also, practically EVERYTHING that plmkr (whatever?) wrote is false.
The war was about slavery. “States’ rights” was just code for the right of a state to have slavery.
This is the way Southerners try to justify taking up arms against their own democratic government to thwart the will of the majority.
So ban the Texas state flag? Why? I don’t think that even the Nazi flag is banned, is it?
Speaking of Nazi-like actions…
Littlejohn, I completely agree with you. I have no reason to fly the flag myself but I can’t see any reason to stop someone from flying it on their own property.
And for whoever said something earlier about people flying flags from other countries… Get over it. People are allowed to have pride in their native countries – I don’t care about it as long as they are legal and not trying to turn the US into that other country. My father who was in the Air Force starting collecting flags from every country that he worked in and had them displayed, does that make him some kind of horrible anti-American person? NO! He was just taking pride in his work and wanted symbols to remind him of the great work that he participated in so that people like you could sit here and whine about it.
You miss my point SolDev….how does the government tax you and not represent your beliefs? This has to be considered the same way the Germans disowned the Nazi flag. Sure it may represent something meaningful for a few. But it offends just as many. I don’t think people are saying ban it all together. If it represents you then fly it on your porch. Just not from the dome of the state capitol.
Oh and Capn, where did you get your information about the Confederate battle flag now being the state flag of Texas? Are you sure about that?
Awwww, gents! Can’t we just compromise?
Maybe Virginis should just fly the Stars and Bars halfway up their flag pole at the state capitol.
: )
I have to agree that it has no part in any state flag, and should be removed. But it is up to the citizens of that state to do so, in my mind.
Awwww, gents! Can’t we just compromise?
Maybe Virginia should just fly the Stars and Bars halfway up their flag pole at the state capitol.
: )
Fred, I was going to ignore it but since you felt the need to post it twice… What does VA have to do with this conversation?!?!? It wasn’t mentioned in the article or any of the discussions so far. And as far as I know, it doesn’t fly the confederate flag…
Let’s be blunt here.
1) The “southern heritage” that flag represents is one of racism and slavery. Period.
2) The north did not “invade” the south; one cannot invade one’s own country. The South was in rebellion from duly elected authority. Period.
3) The original confederacy did not secede over taxes; that was cover. It was over the realization that with westward expansion, the balance of power in Congress between slave and free states that had been carefully nurtured to keep the peace for some 60 years was on the verge of collapse, and the winds were blowing to abolish slavery. For economic and cultural reasons, the south was not prepared to go there.Yes, the issue was one of federal power v. state power. But the power the south feared was going to be asserted was abolition of slavery. Much of the rest of the causes of the war, and there were other causes, of course, were either relatively minor, or were cover. Protecting the institution of slavery was the elephant in the room; to not recognize that is historical revisionism of the highest order.
4) The flying of this flag was not an issue for some 90 years after the Civil War, until post-Brown v. Board. THEN the flag came out, as a symbol of resistance to court ordered integration (we often forget about that “massive resistance” today; remember, this was a culture that in some cases CLOSED the public schools rather than integrate them). So don’t give that BS about “southern heritage;” the flag was revived as a symbol of that heritage for the express purpose of rallying segregation in the face of the civil rights reforms of the 40’s-60’s.
If that’s the heritage you want to celebrate, that is your right, I suppose. But don’t get all offended when those of us with clearer vision of reality and history understand exactly the heritage your celebrating, and act (and criticize) accordingly.
The commentary on this thread shows why all this is not over. There are people here trying to tell another state which flag should be flown over their capitol. It is not our busines, it is theirs. The battle of States Rights (calling it “code” is dishonest), is a right worth fighting over.
SolDevVB,
You were complaining about people displaying the Puerto Rican flag, because they are in the United States. Um, yeah, Puerto Rico is part of America. It’s owned and operated by the United States. They are U.S. Citizens! So if it offends you that a Puerto Rican flag is displayed it must surley offend you if a Kansas flag is displayed. I think your comment shows your ignorance, not to mention racism.
Ahhhh…the era of being offended continues. Good grief.
FleetwoodYou are right. It is their right to fly whatever flag they choose. However, as I said in a previous post. That tells me all I need to know about the person/people inside the building in which the flag flies in front of. Should you choose to fly that flag then you embrace what it stands for. Remember perception is reality to most people.
GMC70-
I don;t celebrate my southern heritage. My forefathers were in Missourri one generation before the civil war. Trying to scrape a living farming a plot of ground that seemed to grow rocks as it’s best crop left little time for other things, and agewise seemed to fall in between prime fighting age.Two, my maternal grandfathers folks were from Pennsylvania, and fought for the North. I was just trying to point out some historical context of the conflict and heritage. I am not offended. I don;t flag the flag, don;t care about those that do,one way or the other. If the flag was “reborn” so to seek over the segregation issue, please see my other post. The civil war was over a long time ago, the south needs to get over it
fleet -
Yes, real federalism is a battle worth fighting. I certainly think the federal gov’t is far too large and intrusive; the Founders would spin in their graves to see the behemoth the federal gov’t has become. Repeal the 16th amendment if you want to truly limit the feds (and that ain’t gonna happen). Restore a commerce clause jurisprudence that is not cover for federal intervention into EVERY part of life (good luck).I’m with you there.
BUT – do you really want to fight that battle under the banner representing the “states’s right” to practice slavery?
GMC, have you ever lived in the south? Yes, there was slavery and integration issues, there still is to this day. But that same crap happened all over the US and still is to this day, just maybe not to the same degree. Yes, there are people who use that flag as a symbol of everything that is wrong with the south but there are also people who use the US flag to symbolize everything that they see as wrong with us – should we get rid of our flag? I think not. It’s not an official flag, so no it shouldn’t be flown on public buildings but trying to cubby hole every person who flies the confederate flag as a racist redneck is just ignorant on your part.
We’ll have to disagree on this one, AFN. Those who fly that flag, today, are either 1) expressing intentionally the racism it representes, or 2) willfully ignorant of same.
Pick your poison.
I dont think they should be able to ban the confederate flag. Like my mother told me when I was a young girl. Be glad dumb rednecks put those on their trucks. That way when you go on a date with one, and you see it, it will save you a whole lot of wasted time in figuring out just how dumb they really are.
You still didn’t answer my question.
As a father of two daughters, and a grandfather of two more, I say”HEAR HEAR” to Kelly’s post
“Should you choose to fly that flag then you embrace what it stands for.”
That is part of the problem. If you believe it embraces what it does not actually embrace, then that makes you wrong. The historical knowledge (lack of) of some people is astounding. All you have to do is read some of the comments on this thread to see that.
I have to agree with you on this one fleetwood.
I guess the point comes down to this. The federal government has no right to tell a state what it can or can not fly on the state’s buildings. The state has no right to tell its citizens which flag they can fly.
It should be left up to the states to decide.
If you are offended, either vote, raise the issue with your local government, or get over it.
“BUT – do you really want to fight that battle under the banner representing the “states’s right” to practice slavery?”
The right to own slaves was constitutional, as you know. In fact, we had to pass an amendment to stop it, as you know. The South ceceded, in part, because the Federal Goverment was trying to thwart the Constitution, as the South interpreted it.The Constitution was hammered out through compromise. Sometimes compromise ain’t all that great.
Fleet wrote: “”Should you choose to fly that flag then you embrace what it stands for.”
That is part of the problem. If you believe it embraces what it does not actually embrace, then that makes you wrong. The historical knowledge (lack of) of some people is astounding. All you have to do is read some of the comments on this thread to see that.”
Just what historical knowledge is wrong. Be specific.
If you think the Southern troop was fighting to keep slavery, you would be wrong. If you think the Northern troop was fighting to stop slavery, you would be wrong.
There is no “right” to own slaves, fleet. There never was. Slavery was tolerated as a compromise to get a workable federal constitution, but there never was a “right” to own slaves. That same constitution set a date after which the slave trade could be ended.
Show me where the constitution ever protected a “right” to own slaves. I’ll save you the trouble; it ain’t there.
Do I have to go through and explain just what a “right” is for you to see just how wrong that statement is?
What GMC70 said. All of it, in fact.
fleet – troops fight for their buddies in the trench next to them. You know that. Political or philosophical reasons for wars don’t matter there.
The north was fighting to preserve the Union. The south was fighting to divide it. But the issue that split that union in the first place was the institution of slavery. How are you so willfully ignorant to not see that?
gmc- Are you picking nits?Why would we have to have the 13th amendment if slavery wasn’t legal?
Wow, CF. WE’re agreeing more and more.
It’s almost scary.
fleet -
“legal” and a “right” to something are two entirely differnt animals.
“But the issue that split that union in the first place was the institution of slavery.”
But, more importantly, the expansion of slavery. Lincoln was most concerned with saving the Union. He was not looking to end slavery. He said as much in his inaugeration speech. But he was avid that slavery no expand. In fact, he voted against the Wilmot Proviso some 40 times. The South knew that and that is why they ceceded so quickly after he was elected.
Stating the basic fact that one human being does not and never did have a “right” to own another is not and never will be “picking nits.”
“”legal” and a “right” to something are two entirely differnt animals.”
So you are picking nits. All my points stand. Better start building that bigger plaque case.
fleet, fleet, fleet.
Not expanding slavery WOULD HAVE ENDED IT. The balance between slave and free states was ending, and with it would have ended the tolerance of the intolerable.The south could see the handwriting on the wall. Secession was to preserve that institution; a pre-emptive strike, if you will.
And no, Lincoln was not a liberal in the modern sense, at least not publicly. He could not afford to be, and he was willing to accept the continuation of slavery in the states that it existed in as a price of preserving the union, which he saw as a higher goal. But once the shooting started, that goal was over, and ending slavery became a goal of the war. But Lincoln also had to be careful; his political support for that war was thinner than we realize a century+ later – he feared he would not be re-elected in 1864, and many favored a negotiated end to the war, dividing the union. Absent the union victories at Gettysburg and the turning of the tide which followed, he may well have lost that political suport. Only in the climate of growing military success could he emancipate the slaves.
And I guess I may well have to explain to you just what a “right” is. Or are you willfully ignorant on that score too?
It seems, fleet, that you are the one most ignorant of history here.
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson owned slaves.
Those filthy pigs!
Not having been raised in the South – I grew up thinking Lincoln was a hero – freeing the slaves, yada, yada, yada. When I first ran into an educated Southerner that told me John Wilkes Booth was THEIR hero I was stunned.
Years of research later – it appears that the well-known concept of the victor dictating history occurred and I had been a dupe, as is every child who was brainwashed with that account.
After freeing the slaves – Lincoln advocated deporting all of them. He was no champion of the ‘free man,’ in fact a black person wasn’t even totally equal to a white person in his eyes.
The North wanted the wealth of the South and the blockades were the first step in getting it.
Now I visit the South frequently – and I’m no longer surprised by the Confederate Flag.
They don’t fly it to symbolize a return to slavery, or even to advocate that.
They fly it because a war was fought on their soil, their homes were burned, their women and daughters, raped, and their animals killed. As was pointed out earlier – very few actually owned slaves, but almost all fought for their homeland – the South, and all it represented to them.
The flag, today, represents more of a desire to bring to light the horror they suffered than anything else. And the South DID suffer.
The people there today who are descendants haven’t forgotten the stories passed down to them about the slaughter of their ancestors and neighbors. The total carnage of their communities.
As far as today’s blacks go – get over it. Not one of you was there – or has any claim on anything.
With all the nuts wanting reparations – the PC crowd forgets one important fact: Who is better off today? The blacks in the United States? Or the blacks in the areas of Africa from the areas where their own people SOLD them into slavery?
It was wrong for anyone to think they could own anyone else – that has been firmly established, but at the same time – had those blacks not been brought here the descendants who are whining today would likely be living in Africa, beating jungle drums and hunting with spears for foods.
There is always two sides to every story.
The Confederate Flag represents SO MUCH MORE than slavery.
Anyone who thinks that – has not studied the history of the Civil War era.
Sort of a dawn-of-civilization “happy face,” it was all the rage 6,000 years ago. Ancient Turks loved it. Tibetans wove it into their baskets and blankets. Navajos painted it in the sand and on their pottery. Norsemen engraved on those funny helmets they wore, the ones with the Hagar the Horrible horns. It’s seen on the walls of prehistoric caves as a stylized representation of the bountiful sun. Sanskrit gave it a name, a combination of “su,” or good, and “asti,” to be; in other words, it means “well-being.”
Then Adolph Hitler came along, adopted the hooked cross (Hakencreuz) as a symbol of Arian purity or a cog in the machine that was to be a thousand year Reich, whatever, the point is: Hitler came along and ruined the swastika for all of us. Wear it now, or tattoo it on your forehead as Charlie Manson did, and most people will figure out you’re pretty much of a kook. No “bountiful sun.” No “well-being.” Kook, pure and simple. Not to mention: loser.
Which brings me to the Confederate flag.
A lot of people served with honorable intentions under that flag, including some of my ancestors. There was a story rolling around family reunions when I was a kid about a couple of great-great-uncles who discovered they fought against, and under, Old Glory and the Confederate battle flag against each other. There’s more evidence of a great-great-something who spent the years between 1861 and 1865 signing up with the Rebels at various encampments, then deserting when the battles got close. I suppose he had great war stories to tell, albeit second-hand.
There’s no indication at all in my genealogy that anyone in my family tree benefited directly from the “peculiar institution” of slavery. Nevertheless, when the time came to fight for farm and family, some of them took up arms, some of them bravely. Some of them under the stars and bars of the Confederate battle flag.
Then along came people like Edgar Ray Killen and ruined it for all. He ruined it for Robert E. Lee, who turned his back against the United States of America to fight for the Old Dominion of his native Virginia. Killen and his Ku Klux Klan adopted and distorted the stars and bars into a symbol of racist hatred.
The Confederate flag, if it ever did, no longer represents anything noble or quaint or honorable. Fly it, display it, wear it, salute it, worship it all you want — it’s your 1st Amendment right — but it brands you as a bigot. Justify, rationalize, cite history or tradition if you can, but hard as you try, the racists have co-opted that symbol for you and ruined it. And its representation brands you as a kook, simple, and a loser.
Monkey -
Well said.
As far as today’s blacks go – get over it. Not one of you was there – or has any claim on anything.
had those blacks not been brought here the descendants who are whining today would likely be living in Africa, beating jungle drums and hunting with spears for foods.
Posted by: GSheridan | April 12, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Wow! Better to be quiet and thought an idiot and to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
“It seems, fleet, that you are the one most ignorant of history here.”
As you are the self-defined arbitor of civility for this blog, I am saddened that you would be a flame thrower on this.I know a little about a lot of things and a lot about some things. The Civil War is one thing I know something about.
“Not expanding slavery WOULD HAVE ENDED IT.”
It was already dieing. Slavery was legal in New Mexico(?) for a long time, but there were only a handful of slaves there. Slavery was not going to work there. It was, partly, a matter of electoral fairness. All the South really wanted was the opportunity to expand slavery. The South was misguided in that expansion was not going to happen, with or without “popular sovereignty”. That was the South’s mistake. I think they went off “half-cocked”. They overplayed their hand. What it comes down to is they wanted to be left alone and the North wouldn’t let them.
Dittos to GMC. Totally agree.
outlander–the first official Confederate flag looks a heck of a lot like the State flag of Texas.
The CSA has three bars while the Texas flag has two, but other than that the layout is identical.
There’s this online encylcopedia called “wikipedia.” I know that you right-wingers hate to do research–it’s so much easier to listen to Rush and Bush.
But try it sometime . . .
Mike, your comment of judging someone by the flag they fly makes you a bigot and racist. As far as saying the battle flag is a racist symbol look at photos of Klan marches. Their flags of choice are the American flag and Christian flag. Does that mean we need to change the flag of this nation as it can be labeled racist.
For those who think the Stars and Bars is the battle flag you are wrong. The national flag of the Confederacy resembled the Federal flag which caused confusion on the battlefield. So the Army of Virginia devised the battle flag which used St. Andrews Cross in it’s design. As for the Texas flag the blue field with the white star was patterned after the Bonnie blue flag.
Fleetwood is still on “ignore.”
Try it.
Ignoring Fleetttwood makes the blog a lot more interesting and you don’t risk catching whatever brain-wasting disease he’s got.
Mike – get a clue. Your politically-correctness is blinding you.
Try taking a look at the areas where our blacks were imported from and the condition the remaining blacks there today live in.
Pretend all you want that life may have been better for them there – you’re only fooling yourself.
Do you have something specifically AGAINST tribal Africans? Do they disgust you THAT much that you refuse to acknowledge they exist.
Just another libbie without a brain. Sheesh.
Capn – obviously you ARE reading Fleetwood – or you would not feel the need to say you are ignoring him.
Why don’t you quit the childish games already?
No one cares. Read or ignore whomever you choose.
“…but would it have killed Giuliani to call the flag what it is — an offensive symbol best left to history?”
Back to the topic. That flag is not his or McCain’s or anybody elses concern except for the citizens for that State. Those citizens can march, petition, boycott … they have the means to get things changed, if they can get enough of their fellow citizens to agree. It’s not up to some “outsider” to voice his opinion. It’s none of his business just like it’s not the business of a citizen of, say, Salina, to comment on Wichita’s business. If it’s not any of your business, don’t be minding it.
Plnmkr, I’d have to agree with most of what you said. I have to take exception to your first sentence though. Mike’s judgement of a person based on the flag would not be racist since he isn’t looking at the person’s race but at an object. That would just make him a person that judges people without truly getting to know them. By the way, if the confederate flag truly stood for slavery, why would a black person in the south fly it? I’ve seen it.
Plnmkr…..looks like an american flag to mehttp://encarta.msn.com/media_461578222/Modern_Ku_Klux_Klan.html
Sheridan…..I do not have any problem with Tribal Africans. But to assume that there would have been no change in the history of Africa without slavery is silly. Can go back and change it, however it would be different now.
And as far as me being a libbie without a brain….better than a neocon without a conscience.
I would just like to point out, Mike, that I’m not saying that about you specifically but just saying that is what is going on if someone is truly judging someone based on that one single item.
Just so there is no misunderstanding Capn, I know the Texas flag looks nothing like the confederate battle flag. I just wanted to know where you could have come up with the idea that they were the same.
fleet -
I’m not flaming, just stating facts. It is in fact you who noted that you thought some commenters didn’t know their history (your 10:14 post).
It still appears you don’t.
And I’ve been firm but polite throughout. Don’t try to make this personal now. Your grasp of history and constitutional theory is wrong on this topic, of course, but that does not mean we have cause to be personal. Try to remember that.
I’m still floored by your statement that there was a “right” to slavery. A right is inherent; it existed prior to the establishment fo the constitution, and the constitution only protects those rights that exist, not creates or grants them. It flows from God, or from our humanity if you like, or from “natural law,” to use a term familiar to the founders. They are precious, relatively few, and while they are not absolute in that the limits of those rights are subject to context and circumstance, their essential existance is inviolate.
For brief example:There is a RIGHT to worship as one chooses, so speak as one chooses.There is a RIGHT to be free from arbitrary search.There is a RIGHT to due process- an opportunity to defend oneself – before the State punishes a person.I’d add that there is a similar RIGHT to life and the means to protect it from others or a tyrranical state protected in the 2nd Am. as well, but that bleeds over onto another thread.
In contrast, a thing or action may well be legal, but it’s not a “right.” One does not have a right to make or drink alcohol; we once banned it, though it turns out that the consequences of prohibition were worse than the disease. It is legal to do any number of things without there being a right to do so.Do you understand the difference now? Still wanna claim that precious “placque?”
HOW can you, with anything like a straight face, equate owning another human being to anything like that?
The battle flag (rebel flag) doesn’t look anything like the Texas flag.
But the original Stars and Bars looks a whole lot like the Texas flag.
Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars_and_bars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_flag
GSheridan–
I can see that Fleetttwood is posting without seeing what he writes.
Poor GMC is wasting his valuable time responding to him.
Talk at a block of wood while you’re at it, GMC, for all the good it will do . . .
And Capn:
While I appreciate your support here, I am what you would probably call a “right-winger.” Let’s stick to the issues, and leave the gratuitous labeling and over-generalizing elsewhere.
“HOW can you, with anything like a straight face, equate owning another human being to anything like that?”
If you want to hang your hat on the difference between a “right” to own slaves and it being “legal” to own slaves, then go ahead. Nothing I have written would change.It seems that you are stuck on the two words. If that’s all you got…
“Let’s stick to the issues, and leave the gratuitous labeling and over-generalizing elsewhere.”
Hey, gmc– You mean like this??
“It seems, fleet, that you are the one most ignorant of history here.
Posted by: GMC70 | April 12, 2007 at 10:51 AM”
GSheridan,
Above you write:
“The flag, today, represents more of a desire to bring to light the horror they suffered than anything else. And the South DID suffer.
The people there today who are descendants haven’t forgotten the stories passed down to them about the slaughter of their ancestors and neighbors. The total carnage of their communities.”
Classic white victimization if ever I read it. But then, with an ASTONISHING lack of any self-awareness, you immediately transition to these comments:
“As far as today’s blacks go – get over it. Not one of you was there – or has any claim on anything.
With all the nuts wanting reparations – the PC crowd forgets one important fact: Who is better off today? The blacks in the United States? Or the blacks in the areas of Africa from the areas where their own people SOLD them into slavery?”
There’s so much idiocy in these four paragraphs I don’t even know where to begin. I suppose the first observation which must be made is that if you keep a straight face while arguing that the confederate flag serves as a some sort of symbolic salve on the still festering wounds of those poor, long suffering Southerners for the wrongs inflicted on them by those evil Northerns, how can you not see that the confederate flag serves as reminder to the rest of us of the evils of the slave economy of the South, which Southerners took up arms against their fellow country men to prolong. And after having lost that battle, the South spent at least the next 100 years actively oppressing black people with institutionalized racism.
Seriously! How can you type those four paragraphs and place them right next to each other without noticing the glaring conflict in your reasoning?
And I can’t even begin to deal with your astonishingly ignorant notion that slavery was somehow the fault of Africans and that, anyhow, it worked out for the slaves in the end… Holy shit, that is some seriously f*cked up thinking.
Obviously, Condor – you’re one of the many who don’t know the history of the Civil War.
I strongly suggest you take the time to educate yourself so you don’t appear as ignorant as you now do.
Instead of attacking – I suggest you try to disprove ANYTHING I said.
You can’t, huh? I’m not surprised. Do you think blacks in Africa DIDN’T sell their fellow man into slavery? Is that what you are trying to say?
Then, when you find out they DID, what are you going to do? Will you say those who committed those acts were honorable? It was okay to sell them?
I already denounced slavery. Unlike you I put the blame on each and every person who committed the atrocities.
You seem to think the Old South woke up one day and there were black folks growing in the garden and the whites went out, picked them, and made them slaves.
Blinders-on mentality.
Why am I not surprised? Hide the truth, Condor. Keep hiding it. Maybe you can bury it so deeply no one will ever find it again.
The War Between the States was about money.
GS, while I agree that much of the reasoning for the war was about money and such (there were many reasons). I have to disagree about the African slaves. If I remember my history correctly, they were occupied at that time by the British and they were the ones buying/selling the slaves. I could have that wrong but that is how I’m remembering it…
“…they were occupied at that time by the British and they were the ones buying/selling the slaves.”
Like every culture, one tribe sold other tribe members into slavery. The American Indians did it, so did the Africans.
GSheridan,
Boy, I guess you think you’ve blown the lid off the secret history of slavery! The African’s did to themselves!
What the f*ck ever.
Anyone who knows anything at all about history knows that many cultures around the world practiced slavery of some form or another well before white Europeans landed on their shores. And yes, Africans sold other Africans into slavery to white Europeans. It was cheaper and easier for the slave traders to pay some tribes to capture other tribes than it would have been to send an army of whites into Africa to capture them themselves. This is why it’s called a slave economy.
Which brings me to your last comment:
“The War Between the States was about money.”
What the f*ck was the labor system that the Southern economy was based on?
Jesus spat!
Fleetwood, some were traded by fellow tribes while others were captured by the Europeans.
Trying to have a conversation with you people is ponderous, man, ponderous.
fleet -
Re: your 2:17 post.I’ve been more than polite. And I’ve done nothing except point out that the shoe fits. You’re stuck with it on.
‘Nuff said.
“Fleetwood, some were traded by fellow tribes while others were captured by the Europeans.”
I don’t doubt it.
Fleetwood,
If by “you people” you’re refering to GSheridan and her self-contradicting nonsensical drivel, then this is one thing on which we agree.
But given that you and GSheridan seem to be entirely in agreement when it comes to attacking Catholics and the Pope, I suspect you’re not refering to GSheridan’s self-contradicting nonsensical drivel here.
gmc–I really don’t get how I have been incorrect on anything. (Besides the right vs legal deal). Help me out here.
Okay…catching up on reading this thread has left me feeling, quite literally, mildly nauseous.
I’m stunned by the complete lack of perspective, ignorance of history, and general foulness of GSheridan’s and Fleettwood’s comments. The facts behind the civil war are clear, the history of the Confederate “battle flag” and its resurrection in the 1950s is indisputable. That you both continue to insist that it’s just about a “proud heritage” makes me ill.
On the other hand, GMC, my respect for you grows daily. If I had been home today, I don’t know that I would have been able to respond as calmly and with the civility you have. ::hat tip::
GMC–
What you call ‘gratuitous labelling’ I call being honest.
Fleettwood is just really dumb.
I don’t know if it’s willfull ignorance or just bone-head stupidity on his part, but I have reached the conclusion that he just isn’t worth reading or responding to.
I respect your desire to keep the discussion respectful. I am unable to maintain the facade of respect however for someone like Fleettwood whom I don’t respect.
Carry on . . .
That civil war had nothing to do with slavery, that is just the re-writing of history. It was about states rights, small central government, low taxes etc…
Slavery was on the way out through technology, the civil war only pro-longed slavery. While I do not agree with slavery as it existed in the South, I do agree with it in the way the Bible spelled it out. A slave was just the lowest of the working class, to serve proudly, and to be rewarded at the end of a set time with freedom and the ability to support themselves.
Let’s also not forget that black people actively hunt down and enslave other black people in Africa TO THIS DAY! The life expectancy and quality of life for a US born slave far exceeded that of those lived on the continent of Africa. Hell, it far exceeded what an African born / current resident can expect TO THIS DAY! Medial care, often times education, nutrition…
The greatest evils of slavery were performed by people further up the chain, the slave traders, not Southern gentleman farmers.
Anyone ever been to Africa? I have twice. Their is nothing good there unless your in an area that has been influenced by the “white world.” No hospitols, no libraries, no developement, education, dwelling,or any decency of any kind, UNLESS, the great white evil race had at one time or another been there to get the ball rolling.
The American slave owners, and the way slavery existed had many flaws, but very few slaves would have traded their existance as a slave for a boat ride back to Africa. Why didn’t they return to the mother land once freed? Because they knew what was best for them.
The African born and raised blacks I met there HATE American blacks. I’ve been there, and seen it. They are ashamed and embarassed by them. I’ve traveled the world several times. Blacks fill the ghetto’s of every nation.
What makes matters worse, is that the worse of the black race has been turned into a popular culture icon. Every little white middle class boy wants to be one, and every little white girl wants one for herself. This is a crime against society, both white, hispanic, AND black! Once this movement succeeds, who the hell is going to pay the bills?
Black people CAN if they choose accomplish the same great things that the white race has, but if they don’t stop embracing the worse of themselves, they will be forever stuck in the same rut they have been, and people like me will continue to have to pay for their mistakes.
Tom:
I appreciate the kind words. I don’t know that I entirely live up to that, and I hope I continue to write in ways that further dialogue and knowledge rather than simply raise the level of invective.
And Capn:
whether I agree with you about your assessment of fleet or not, a person who dialogues calmly, even if I disagree with them entirely, is entitled to a calm response on the merits without simply calling them “dumb” or “rightwing” and dismissing them out of hand. And there is progress here, even if in small steps.
FF–
Did you ever hear of Liberia? The African country founded by freed and escaped American slaves?
Apparently not.
“That civil war had nothing to do with slavery, that is just the re-writing of history. It was about states rights, small central government, low taxes etc…”
Good God. And it gets worse from there. Where do these people learn their history?
Oh well. None are so blind as those who will not see.
I’d recommend Battle Cry of Freedom. Pulitzer prize and all.
Then we’ll talk.
Liberia,
Hmmm, good for them, their are always exceptions. Again, progress that exists because finger print of the white man that was left upon those people. It only proves my point, but good for them.
Oh, and why has S. Africa gone to shit lately? Whoever guesses gets a cookie.
FF_
Even if your points about the civil war were correct, the rest of your statements make it so that nobody is willing to listen. You are making the point of most rascists, whether you are or not. That leaves you the discussion, not your points. Nobody cares what you have to say. Much of what you have to say is just stupid
Oh, so throw the “racist” brand around. My feelings and opinions of black people match EXACTLY those of Chris Rock! Is he a racist?
If you notice, I did not call you a rascist. I said you were using their arguments. DOes CHris Rock make rascist statments? yeah,probably. Does it make him a rascist? Uh, no
I’m just a realist. Hard working conservative legitimate members of society who just happen to be black don’t care for other black people that much though. I can attest to that, have a couple I’m friends with.
Any negative leanings I have… and YES, I do tend to have some, towards black people stem from my love for THEM! Not because I am a racist person.
Yeah, that makes sense. NOT!
what doesn’t make sense about what I said? Please specify, I was very specefic.
The whole thing was confusing. You are black? That was even a little hard to pull out. And you don’t like black people, but you have black friends….????
GS, while I find it odd that we agree on anything, I applaud your posts on this thread. You’ve pretty much hit the nail on the head and I thank you for bringing some truth and sensibility to this discussion.
The nice thing about winning a war…you get to write the history. Southerners remember it quite differently. Yankees like to think the war started when the Confederacy fired on Ft Sumter. For Southerners, it started when the North blockaded the South, a naked act of aggression. The South didn’t try to overthrow the government and had no intention of starting a war. Since they were out-numbered, out-voted, and under represented, they tried to leave the Union. There wasn’t anything in the Constitution that forbade it at that time.
Yes, the South lost the war and paid a terrible price. The North slaughtered our people like animals. They burned the crops, destroyed the farms, and took away what they could of our culture.
But we survived. And though we’ll never forget, we forgave. Too bad you Northerners aren’t able to do that.
Whether we fly the Southern Cross or not, we’re good Americans just like Northerners are. I personally have given more for my country than most of the people here who denigrate the South. I’m a little surprised at the bigotry some posters here show against people simply because they hale from the South. You think we’re stupid bigots because of our heritage? Now THAT’S really stupid.
There are a lot of really good things about the South, Southern manners being one. You Northerners could use some.
You may have won the War of Aggression, but you’ll never strip us of our proud heritage. When you try, we just consider the source.
Perhaps GMC, you might include books about “Bleeding Kansas” as recommended reading to ‘freedom freak’ for causes of the Civil War.
For some reason, there was a dispute about certain philosophies back then. :)
Or maybe some of the actions of the Underground Railroads that appeared to be popping up all over the Northern States.
Perhaps the Abolitionist movement which was quite large.
Yes sir, GMC, I think our friend ‘freedom freak’ has a lot of reading to catch up on.
I’m sure a friendly Librarian will help him out on discovering the causes of the Civil war.
:)
I’m not black, my ex and kids are bi-racial though. Did you know that some how? Hmmm! It was scary somehow that you seemed to know that, or suspect something about me… Maybe you know me in the real world?
I do not dislike black people, EVERYONE is given the benefit of the doubt with me, but once they prove to not deserve my respect, I have no problem not giving it. Which DOES seem to be the case with a much higher % of black people than it does white people… meaning out of 10 white folks, about one of them will prove to be not worth a shit, but meet 10 blacks, and about 4 are pure crap. Another 4 will prove to be VERY VERY different than me, but good in every sence of the word. Then their are the other 2, who are just like me, no rhythm having, straight laced conservative types. :0)
One very light hearted on going jokes I have with my black friend Greg is that he has no rhythm, no “ghetto” in him, and isn’t getting any, just like me. It’s a joke to me, but he takes it seriously. He want’s a fine white chick, but they won’t give him the time of day because he is a legit citizen, and they want hoods. HIS WORDS NOT MINE!
My ex-wife is very racist against black people. As a mother, it is one of her biggest fears that the boys will grow up to be ghetto. She is very hard on them, demands they speek proper English, word hard at school, and has outlawed rap music. Out of the two of us, I’M the liberal parent.
More BS rambelings, SLAVERY WAS ON THE WAY OUT!!! The slaves were going to be the 1st ones to loose their jobs to a machine who could do the same job, cheaper and better!
THAT IS A FACT!
AND ANOTHER THING! My forefathers were still in Ireland when slavery existed. Just for the record! They came over after the civil war, and helped build the rail roads with freed slaves. I can still hear my great grandmother recalling stories of how one black family had become very close to them. They spoke very highly of the family they were “owned” by, and would have given anything to go back. The wife actually DID go back to care for her former owner as he was on his death bed.
freedomfreak, I sure hope you weren’t referring to the Cotton Gin.
The cotton gin was invented 60 some odd years before the Civil War.
You know what the result of the cotton gin was in regards to slaves?
“…slaves now labored on ever-larger plantations where work was more regimented and relentless. As large plantations spread into the Southwest, the price of slaves and land inhibited the growth of cities and industries.
So much for technology helping reduce the slave population. 0,0
I’m about to let this thread rest, but I gotta make just one more comment.
GS, FF, you wrote (and I’m paraphrasing, so I’ll try to sum up your position correctly) that the only progress in Africa has been due to white colonialism bringing it. In your words:
GS – “had those blacks not been brought here the descendants who are whining today would likely be living in Africa, beating jungle drums and hunting with spears for foods.”
FF – “Anyone ever been to Africa? I have twice. Their is nothing good there unless your in an area that has been influenced by the “white world.” No hospitols, no libraries, no developement, education, dwelling,or any decency of any kind, UNLESS, the great white evil race had at one time or another been there to get the ball rolling.”
Both quotes exactly as written.
I think that some serious reading on the plight of sub-Sahara Africa will reveal that much of Africa’s horrible circumstances come BECAUSE of colonialism and it’s legacy. Far from colonial Europeans “helping” Africans, they attempted to extract as many resources as they could, and left the Africans saddled with political boundaries relevant to Europeans, not Africans, and with the old social structure destroyed and no new social order to put in its place.
No, GS, FF, all you’ve offered is essentially “white man’s burden” bulls–t wrapped up in ignorance. Get the facts.
There was a time my friend when the Confederate Battle Flag represented things south. When I was in college- in the north at Northwestern University- it was not uncommon to see that flag in dorm rooms. You never thought “that student is a racist” but you assumed the student was from the southeast USA or was fan of The Dukes of Hazzard which was popular at that time. But as time went on that flag began to show up at more and more Klan gatherings and more and more white hate groups displayed and adopted it as their own symbol. It became a symbol of hate, racism and oppression and an insult to all good people everywhere. That is why it does not belong anywhere in a public place except perhaps confederate monuments such as Stone Mountain. If people wish to fly it privately, fine. It just shows their stupidity.
The new Georgia flag is based on the real Confederate flag. The old Georgia flag was based on the Confederate Battle flag and they are not the same. It took those of us with decency a long time to get that disgusting battle flag off our state flag but. It was removed not because the state legislators are good decent folks but because big business here got tired of being embarassed by it and told that state either the flag goes or we go- make your choice.
Symbols…flags, signs…will only do a person, regardless of color or gender, harm…if that person chooses to let it. Just as with words, meant to insult or to inflict pain, are only as strong as you let them be.
And if you choose not to try and understand or research the meaning or intent, good or bad, wherever and by whoever it was derived from, turn the channel back to C.O.P.S. or Springer.
Everyone has scars..(I’m not refering to the flag as a scar though…just an example!!!)…one type or another. Something happened to produce those scars. Me, I’m proud of mine. Not proud of what I did to get them, but proud that I survived through them, learned from them, and hopefully have become a better person as the result. And if I were to have them removed…what keeps me from repeating that act again..after my memory has failed or has been distorted in some way.
This country needs to grow up some and stop blaming others, stop being offended by EVERYTHING and understand why we are here, what got us here and try not to repeat the mistakes we have made in the past.
I like the rebel flag personally, its that stupid happy face that pisses me off so much!
The flag of Georgia is very similar. It is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_%28United_States%29
You can also see the pre 2003 and pre 2001 state flags. The new flag is based upon the design of the first confederate flag known as “The Stars and Bars”. Of course some of the white folks down here with lower IQs still bitch about the “loss” of the battle flag even though the new flag is as much a Confederate flag as the old one it replaced. It is just that this Confederate flag doesn’t insult a third of the state’s people which is really what the white trash element down here wants to do. Most of us however are very proud of our new flag and think it is beautiful and I am proud to have played a part in getting it passed.
While I think the southern flag means much more to many people than rascism, I think it may have been coopted to the point of being nothing but divisive. I think it should be retired. And actually, I think a lot of young guys have flown the battle flag as an emblem of defiance of authority, nothing more or less.
Although I descend from many of the old Virginia families (most of my progenitors were in the tidewater no later than 1700), I truly do not understand why some southernors persist in their desire to display the Confederate flag. The Civil War, for heaven’s sake, was a long time ago, fought in most cases by our great-great grandparents. My family moved beyond the episode two generations ago, and here’s how I know: my grandfather, due to unusual circumstances with the early death of his mother, was raised in large part by my great-great grandmother, who was born in 1840 or so and lived through the whole sorry affair. Yet she never spoke of the matter or expressed any bitterness about it. She finally died in Kansas City in the 1930’s, remembered by the family as a talker, as a person who would stop on the street and carry on a conversation with complete strangers. My grandfather continued that tradition and I miss him even as I write this. My parents supported the civil rights movement and they will undoubtedly vote for Obama, just as I will, if he becomes the nominee. The Confederate flag drags up old business and makes African-Americans uncomfortable. It should never be displayed on government property and Guiliani knows that.
XXX – It is strange that you and I agree on something – but I totally support you on this topic.
I wasn’t raised to believe what you are saying – and I resisted what you are saying when I first heard it. So I set about to find out – and every word you’ve written is factual.
I spent a lot of time touring the South over the past 15 years and seeing the sights, listening to the bits of stories passed down, and reading the historical society newspapers and journals that have been archived.
I read story after story of how young girls were raped, little boys hung from trees, both while their parents watched before they were killed also. I read accounts of horses having the tendons severed in their legs and left to suffer. Crops were destroyed – home after home was set ablaze.
What I find interesting is that more and more people are taking the time to educate themselves about the Civil War.
And more and more – end up just like me. We may have been inundated with the revisionist history of the heroics of the North and the ‘just cause.’ But the strange thing is – were we to be given the chance today, knowing what we know now – we would fight for the Confederacy. And that conviction doesn’t have a damn thing to do with slaves. That’s the kicker.
In my research of wars – few have been as brutal as the Civil War was to the the people of the South.
The Confederate Flag means much the same thing to the descendants of the South – as the Star of David means to the Jews. It is a symbol that they were taken advantage of – and that they will never forget.
It is a symbol of survival and the honor of those who fought bravely, but lost to a terrible and cruel aggressor.
And how many people today know Mary Lincoln was a nut along the same lines as Imelda Marcos?
We should ALL be glad the south lost the war. The north’s cause was just and noble. The south was pure evil and whatever suffering was caused in the south was a result of their own evil toward fellow humans.
[lyrics]Virgil Caine is the name, and I served on the Danville train,’Til Stoneman’s cavalry came and tore up the tracks again.In the winter of ‘65, We were hungry, just barely alive.By May the tenth, Richmond had fell, it’s a time I remember, oh so well,
(Chorus)The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, and the bells were ringing,The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down, and the people were singin’. They wentLa, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La,
Back with my wife in Tennessee, When one day she called to me,”Virgil, quick, come see, there goes Robert E. Lee!”Now I don’t mind choppin’ wood, and I don’t care if the money’s no good.Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest,But they should never have taken the very best.
Like my father before me, I will work the land,Like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand.He was just eighteen, proud and brave, But a Yankee laid him in his grave,I swear by the mud below my feet,You can’t raise a Caine back up when he’s in defeat. [end lyrics]
Kev, with all due respect – you’re totally full of shit.
“The south was pure evil and whatever suffering was caused in the south was a result of their own evil toward fellow humans.”
The above is the perfect example of the ignorance of many of the American people regarding the history of the Civil War.
is pure evil kinda of like pure sugar?
GS repeats the lyrics to a song that Joan Baez made popular . . . although I far prefer Levon Helm’s The BAND version.
How about some of that “I thought I saw Joe Hill last night / alive as you or me?”
Or maybe “We Shall Overcome” . . .
The South should have been able to seceed from the Union if they wanted to. I could never see anything in the Constitution that forbids it.
Those of us who don’t live in what would be the Confederate States would be a lot better off if the answer hadn’t been war and The CSA had just been allowed to seceed.
As for the atrocities that broke the South, that was regrettable. But it is also inevitable. It happens in every war. That’s why Sherman said famously that “war is hell.”
That’s why it was so unfair of the reich-wing to condemn Kerry for testifying about the dead obvious in Vietnam.
It’s happening right now in Iraq. If you don’t believe it, look at the photographic proof from Abu Ghraib prison.Look at the videos posted on YouTube of “private contractors” machine-gunning ordinary cars they pass on the street because . . . hell . . . because they can.
GSheridan and Fleettwood are Wichita’s own clones of Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh.
The only trouble is figuring out which is which. My money is on Fleettwood as Coulter.
In anticipation of the outraged “we do NOT commit atrocities,” here’s the link:
‘Trophy’ video exposes private security contractors shooting up Iraqi drivers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:55pm GMT 26/11/2005
A “trophy” video appearing to show security guards in Baghdad randomly shooting Iraqi civilians has sparked two investigations after it was posted on the internet, the Sunday Telegraph can reveal.
The video has sparked concern that private security companies, which are not subject to any form of regulation either in Britain or in Iraq, could be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent Iraqis.Lt Col Tim Spicer is investigating the incidentThe video, which first appeared on a website that has been linked unofficially to Aegis Defence Services, contained four separate clips, in which security guards open fire with automatic rifles at civilian cars. All of the shooting incidents apparently took place on “route Irish”, a road that links the airport to Baghdad.
In one of the videoed attacks, a Mercedes is fired on at a distance of several hundred yards before it crashes in to a civilian taxi. In the last clip, a white civilian car is raked with machine gun fire as it approaches an unidentified security company vehicle. Bullets can be seen hitting the vehicle before it comes to a slow stop.
There are no clues as to the shooter but either a Scottish or Irish accent can be heard in at least one of the clips above Elvis Presley’s Mystery Train, the music which accompanies the video.
The Foreign Office has also confirmed that it is investigating the contents of the video in conjunction with Aegis, one of the biggest security companies operating in Iraq. The company was recently awarded a £220 million security contract in Iraq by the United States government. Aegis conducts a number of security duties and helped with the collection of ballot papers in the country’s recent referendum
Lt Col Spicer, 53, rose to public prominence in 1998 when his private military company Sandlines International was accused of breaking United Nations sanctions by selling arms to Sierra Leone.
The video first appeared on the website http://www.aegisIraq.co.uk. The website states: “This site does not belong to Aegis Defence Ltd, it belongs to the men on the ground who are the heart and soul of the company.” The clips have been removed.
The website also contains a message from Lt Col Spicer, which reads: “I am concerned about media interest in this site and I remind everyone of their contractual obligation not to speak to or assist the media without clearing it with the project management or Aegis London.
“Refrain from posting anything which is detrimental to the company since this could result in the loss or curtailment of our contract with resultant loss for everybody.”
Security companies awarded contracts by the US administration in Iraq adopt the same rules for opening fire as the American military. US military vehicles carry a sign warning drivers to keep their distance from the vehicle. The warning which appears in both Arabic and English reads “Danger. Keep back. Authorised to use lethal force.” A similar warning is also displayed on the rear of vehicles belonging to Aegis.
Capt Adnan Tawfiq of the Iraqi Interior Ministry which deals with compensation issues, has told the Sunday Telegraph that he has received numerous claims from families who allege that their relatives have been shot by private security contractors travelling in road convoys.
He said: “When the security companies kill people they just drive away and nothing is done. Sometimes we ring the companies concerned and they deny everything. The families don’t get any money or compensation. I would say we have had about 50-60 incidents of this kind.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/11/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/11/27/ixworld.html
Here’s the actual video:
http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/contract/
Maybe it’s just me Capn, but what did your last two posts have to do with Giuliani and the Confederate flag topic?
Republican:
I was wondering the same damn thing.
Sorry, reading comprehension isn’t your strong suit, eh fellas?
GSheridan went on and on about the poor, suffering Southerners.
Okay, fine.
What about the poor, suffering Iraqis?
Why doesn’t she give a sh*t about them?
And nice attempt to minimize the damning nature of seeing “our” guys shooting the hell out of the people we’re there to “protect.”
Yeah okay Capn,
Are the grownups in at your house?
Heh, that’s the difference between you and me, Republican.
I own my house.
But if it makes you feel better, I’ll post it on the Open Thread too . . .
How can the Republicans claim Lincoln as their hero for saving the Union then also claim the Stars and Bars are not racist or divisive?Either Lincoln was good and the Confederacy was bad – or the Confederates were good and Lincoln was the villain.You bastards can’t have it both ways.
Capn,
You can’t expect that level of abstract reasoning from a We Blogger at this late hour. Give us a sentence or something that leads into the text. Be creative. And I’m glad you own your own house. I don’t own a house because I don’t want to fix defective plumbing when I finally get a day off.
Hehehe, good one, Bob. Touche.
Got that one filed away in the “to be used later” bin.
TRT–
Heh, yeah, no kidding.
My house is like my second job.
And now the grass is growing like mad to boot.
I’m a slave to my yard.
I’d like to rent too, but my wife loves her flowers etc.
Bob,
There’s an easy explanation. The South used to be the stronghold of the Democratic Party. Before the 1960s, the Democratic Party in the southern states stood for segregation, Jim Crow, and poll taxes. And those were just the *official* platforms.
That started to change in the 50s and 60s; by 1980, the shift in party alignment in the South was almost complete. The Republican Party was targeted for takeover by the same religious extremists who had earlier lost control of the Democratic Party in the south.
Now the Republicans of a “small L” libertarian viewpoint are abandoning the party in favor of the Democratic Party in droves. The moves by Paul Morrison and Mark Parkinson were not isolated incidents; they reflect a significant change in the philosophy of the Republican Party as the extremists tighten their grip.
Those of us who value liberty, or who are often labeled “moderates,” have no use or patience for the kind of naked bigotry the far right has for any ideas but their own.
The evidence of that is on this blog every day.
Very well said, Tom.
Richard Nixon crafted what became known as the “Southern Strategy” following the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Since then the Republican party has depended heavily on exploiting racial divisions in the South to allow them to carry the electoral college in Presidential elections.
When I see people here and elsewhere piously bloviating about the GOP being the “party of Lincoln,” I want to scream. In 1964 the two major parties essentially switched sides in the South.
Condor,
Thanks for the kind word.
To be fair, the Democratic Party isn’t above using racial divisions either. The party has for years taken the African-American vote for granted, all too often paying little more than lip-service to their needs.
There are also some in the Democratic Party (and in the Republican Party, too) who make the races of illegal immigrants into an issue, all in an attempt to gain the votes needed to win.
It would be nice if race were not an issue in American politics. I don’t think there’s any hope of that, though. Pity.
The Only-est Issue in America is Race
It started when a slave-owner declared this nation’s iindependence by writing “…all men are created equal.”The Constitution of the United States — the single most mportant document of self-governance in history — was adopted only after African Americans were determined to be 3/5ths human.
Racism is embedded in America’s DNA.
And it’s gonna take a while to work it out.
On one hand, I agree with Lenny Bruce who said we need to get words like Kike and Wop and Nigger and Spic and Polack out into the open so they no longer have the shock value of being unacceptable. But Lenny was a “Kike” and could use the word with irony. Richard Pryor could say “the” word and get laughs because he was audacious. Carlos Mencina can throw out “beaners” with impunity because it’s self-referential, ironic, and sometimes funny.
But when a 70-ish white man starts talkin’ like he’s a withit gangsta rapper it’s just pathetic. Imus should be joking about Viagra-pumping has-beens who desperately hope they’ve accumulated enough money to attract shallow gold-diggers who covet unlimited charge accounts at shoe stores. (Not that it’s particularly funny; but at least it’s got something relevant to Imus’s life.)
Limbaugh can tell fat jokes. Stevie Wonder can tell blind jokes. “Republican” can tell prick jokes (well, he can’t; but we’re being theoretical here).
Imagine someone like Chris Rock walking on stage and doing Jeff Foxworthy’s act. If Larry the Cable Guy recited a Dave Chappel bit it’d be a little creepy, right?
Race, or color, or ethnic background are all false issues. There are just as many cheap Presbyterians as there are thrifty Jews. There are exactly as many lazy Mexicans as drunk Irishmen; or not.
It’s probably going to take a few generations of Halle Barrys, Tiger Woods, Derek Jeters and Vin Diesels until we come to the realization that that there’s only one “race:” the *human* race. ‘Til then we’re gonna have to deal with all sorts of misguided racism.
Race-based bigotry is just too easy. Gender-based bigotry is just too easy. Ethinc- and religious-based bigotry is just too easy. It requires no thought whatsoever.
In fact, it depends on it.
Interesting commentary MonkeyHawk, thought provoking.
According to the latest Anthropological science and genetics we may all be one race. That is, that we all share the same genetic makeup and only certain trait characteristics makes us different because of adaptation through environment.
Cultural racism as established by selective grouping may have occurred because of obvious traits (skin color) and also cultural rules.
It’s all good theory and such, but I think most race based prejudice is based on selective practice and usage of man’s twisted society.In other words, we screwed it up big time.
GSheridan went on and on about the poor, suffering Southerners.
Okay, fine.
What about the poor, suffering Iraqis?
Why doesn’t she give a sh*t about them?—————-
The ‘Soputherners’ were our countrymen. Their descendants live among us today.
The Iraqi’s (some of them) are fighting against us.
Something tells me you still don’t comprehend that.
Funny how some see atrocities in Iraq, but don’t see it in the War of Northern Aggression.
Capn, your unreasoning hatred of Southerners is well known and documented.
GS, looks like I’ve misjudged you.
My respects.
“Either Lincoln was good and the Confederacy was bad – or the Confederates were good and Lincoln was the villain.You bastards can’t have it both ways.”
I am often asked if the South were the “bad guys” in the Civil War. The question itself shows a lack of knowledge, but it is welcome. There are no “good” or “bad” guys in the War. Each side was doing what they thought was the right thing as they saw it. I do understand why some may think the South were the bad guys, but they would be wrong.
And how many people today know Mary Lincoln was a nut along the same lines as Imelda Marcos?
LoL this may come as a shock…. I did!
Her own son, Robert, put her into the nut house (will that get me kicked off the air?).She did like to shop. I don’t know if she was shoe crazy, but at one time, during the War, she bought a bunch of dinnerware and other junk for the White House and Lincoln paid for it out of his own pocket. He didn’t want the American people to have to pay for her shopping sprees.
GMC, I will concede one thing here, not all “white” influence is good influence, as you pointed out. But health care for a longer life, education etc… are all the white man’s thing, as is development. Development is not always good for a culture. Ask any native American.
It’s all a matter of what you want, or expect out of life. Tradition is very important to some people, that’s why the many in the middle east want to blow us up. 1000’s of years of tradition has been/is being flushed down the toilet because of our presence in the region, whether you agree with those traditions of not, they are all those people have ever known.
I personally like progress, learning, getting my ailments cured, a million channels of nothing to watch, making more money than I deserve, and all the other great things we Americans take for granted.
Other people want to live off the land, fish and hunt for food, and eat grass and shit. To them progress sucks.
My point is to each their own. I was wrong for saying that anything “worth a shit” in Africa came fromt he white man. They are entitled to live however they want.
http://www.kansascity.com/182/story/66339.html
Here is a neat link.
FF–
Without the influence of blacks in America, we would have music like Germany: polkas and techno-pop.
Your assertion that white kids are “acting black” has been around ever since Elvis Presley, the guy who made acting black into a career.
I don’t know what rock you crawled out from under, but go back to playing with your guns and posting to the White Pride websites.
We got enough wack-os on this board without you.
Thank you,
The Management
I will make this short and to the point. I am a southern lady and am proud of my heritage. However, we can not undo what our fore-fathers did whether it be the fault of the north or the south! Please, stop all this bickering back and forth. Let the south have their personal flag if they choose,it does not symbolize slavery or racism! Old Glory still hails proud and high throughout the south and it represents a nation of unity at whole, all of us here. Now get a life and remember who first raped this beautiful land. If anyone should be bitching it should be our Native Americans.