Democrats in Congress were nothing less than irate when allies of the Bush administration blocked a bill to require the disclosure of the CIA’s secret prisons and the amount of money spent by U.S. intelligence agencies. The bill also included a provision that required the White House to release within 30 days any intelligence document that Congress requested.
The White House said the provision would “foster political gamesmanship and elevate routine disagreements to the level of constitutional crises.”
But surely there’s nothing routine about our government possibly holding people in jails all over the world without the promise of speedy or fair trials.
Posted by Ross Stewart
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50 Comments
Let the Democratic Majority Congress have their way. Open up every secret there is to the entire world which basically what they were asking with the “required the White House to release within 30 days any intelligence document that Congress requested.”
The New York will be more than happy to publish the secret documents.
There are some things need to be brought to the light, otherwise allow to be kept in the dark will be a festering sore upon this nations soul. While there are many that already know of the truth, to deny it would only serve to farther blacken this nation.
That said to open all secrets to the world would be foolish, certainly the subject of our “kidnapping and holding” those that there is no trial or judgment other then they might be a terrorist. Makes us no better, no matter what the reasoning, then the enemy we fight.
The first step in righting a wrong is to admit that you have done wrong.
Elevate? Bush is a constitutional crisis, and for all practical purposes an enemy of the United States, along with his Neocons and Zionist cohorts.
He also makes a lousy King.
As much as the likes of repub hate it, democrats are elected to office. One of their jobs is to ensure checks and balances are in place to prevent the presidency from turning into a fiefdom. The republican led congress sure didn’t do a good job of that. Why do you think they lost the last general election?
This is a nation of laws. Anything else is anarchy. Knowing what and where intelligence money (our dollars) is spent seems to me to be reasonable request. Locking up people for whatever reason, without what every American is afforded seems to me to be wrong. If the case against those held in secret prisons is so strong, bring them to trial.
The problem is, this prez seems to have little faith in the justice system, or the constitution for that matter. But repub is correct: 1.5 years and we can elect someone who actually respects this country and we can then start sweeping up the mess bush left us with.
“…holding people in jails all over the world without the promise of speedy or fair trials.”
From where would this (non-existant) promise come from?
Fleet is about the soul of the United States. Basic human rights that we as Americans should hold as the higher standard. Our Constitution, our laws that govern the land are first and foremost based on the principal of basic human rights. It is what has made this country strong ,not having the largest military, or being the biggest bully on the block. It has made us in the right within the world, putting these principals above our own welfare. It is the greatest weapon this country has in a global fight on terrorism, when we do wrong in the name of being right. It just makes us as wrong in the fight and hard to decide the sides.
It is not about the welfare of those that will do us harm, it is about our country.
fleetwood,
It’s called the SIXTH AMENDMENT.
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Bush worshipping, Right Wingers such as yourself, fleetwood, appear to think that you know the Constitution SO WELL as to have no further need of it. Or at least that’s how you act.
Thank God for the Democratic Congress for standing up for the Constitution.
Doesn’t the Constitution cover Americans in America?
Like Jose Padilla?
This thread has nothing to do with Americans in America.Padilla is a murderer and a threat to us. He’s getting his trial.
You people are seriously scary. With Putin killing off his rivals, do you think it’s all that far off that Bush is heading us there too?
Man ignorance must be bliss.
I was scared to death when Bush was elected, and I was in the minority. Now I’m in the majority, but some just keep a-burying their heads in the sand.
Unlike the Israelis, who have taken it upon themselves to set a new tone for America, America has always adhered to the Geneva Conventions and International Law. This was in keeping with its pre-Zionist, its pre-Neocon, its pre-Bush respect for the intent of the American constitution and its honorable, fair minded civilized behaviour in foreign policy matters.
Now that we’ve lower ourselves to little more than barbarians, these new government revelations have come to be expected.
BTW The refugee figure for Iraq has now passed 4 million. The America, which I know would never be a part of causing this to happen or the devistaion of Lebanon or the barbaric treament of the Palestinians.
Trying to justify all this under the cloak of the phony “war on terror” is disgraceful and isn’t fooling anybody.
“With Putin killing off his rivals, do you think it’s all that far off that Bush is heading us there too?”
What’s scary is I think you really believe that.
Like I said in a post a few days ago. We are down to about 4 amendments that this administration respects. They have tapped our phones and read our emails(I sent a copy of the constitution to myself hoping they would read that one….obviously they didn’t). Imprisoned those they felt were a threat to the US and will not provide them counsel or a trial. They torture inmates at Guantanamo and the other secret prisons.
And we wonder why the middle east hates the west? Our gov’t is no better than any other regime.
fleetwood,
Hogwash. It has everything to do with Jose Padilla. He’s an American citizen. Who, by the way, has not as yet been convicted of anything.
I suspect fleetwood finds ‘innocent until proven guilty’ as he seems to find ‘due process.’
I know right wingers…..they hate us for our freedom. When Bush is finished thats all we will have left. Freedom to think you are free.
Oops–supposed to be an ‘inconvenient’ after ‘as.’
“Our gov’t is no better than any other regime.”
Motto of the Libs.
Is this the narcissists meeting room?
When you can’t defend or deflect… attack right Fleet?
They have tapped our phones and read our emails(I sent a copy of the constitution to myself hoping they would read that one….obviously they didn’t). Imprisoned those they felt were a threat to the US and will not provide them counsel or a trial. They torture inmates at Guantanamo and the other secret prisons.
And we wonder why the middle east hates the west? Our gov’t is no better than any other regime.
Posted by: Mike | April 18, 2007 at 09:43 AM
Man, you are out on a limb with a saw in your hand. First of all, do not proscribe the events you detail to just the Bush Administration. Evens like these can be found in all histories of conflict. Second, they wiretapped your phone? Were you in contact with someone known to be a terorist? They read your emails?Give me a break. You and I both know they did no such thing. they have neither the time or the budget to do so. Did they keyword conversations? Probably. So? And if they had not, an an attack had happened, the scream would have been “THEY SHOULD HAVE KNOWN!”
We can argue the treading on civil liberties if you like, but the last statement is repugnant. How many people have we put live into grinders? How many people are put into jail for writing on the internet, or practicing their faith? How many? How many women have had their genitia cstrated with the sanction of the Government. Give me a break
You don’t need a break, an education might help, but even that’s doubtful.
“When you can’t defend or deflect… attack right Fleet?”
Noticing that you people believe that America is no better than any other “regime” is not attacking.
We Americans hold ourselves to this holier than thou mentality. Our country is great. Our government is not better this I truly believe. Secret prisons, Abu Ghraib, warrantless wiretaps, taking the country to war on bad intelligence(which was very strange considering they blamed 9/11 on bad intell. but suddenly the intell was great), holding prisoners without counsel or trial, torture. Yes you may stand on the extreme governments to make your point. But I will ask you this…if ridding the world of oppressive gov’t is our job….then why are we not in Darfur? Because there is no oil under that sand!
Ft. Whatchuka(sp?) has ACRES of underground computer equipment that monitor communications of all types. This didn’t start with Bush or Clinton. It has been there for quite some time. The Gov’t has been eavesdropping for decades. Why all the BS now? I would rather have my cell phone and email conversations listened in on than my workplace blowing up.
So the right is willing to sacrifice the Constitution to feel safe? With what is going on around the world today how safe do you really feel? Here is a poll taken to show how most americans feel
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/06/opinion/polls/main1975940.shtml
I must get some sleep, goodnight all!
I for one am not willing to sacrifice the Constitution at all.If The Bush admin has done something Unconstitutional, let him be charged. No problem with that. Haven;t seen it yet, haven;t seen any evidence yet, or charges. Mostly smoke and mirrors by opposition members and hypersensitive types. Mostly used as a tactic. Got the goods on him, GO FOR IT! And I am not being sarcstic. I mean it.
About the The poll
60% feel as safe or safer55% approve of the way Bush has handled the war on terror
About 1/2 think Bush admin policies have made the US safer
Your point is?
If Americans feel the Constitution is being sacrificed, then go after it legally.
What the poll probably didn’t indicate is if 911 never happened would they feel safe.
The fact that 911 did happen has made people more aware of dangers that exist.
For most of American people outside of high target areas, their perception of being safe most likely haven’t changed.
For people that fly a lot I imagine there is a heightened awareness because of 911 that they aren’t as safe as they used to be.
I would say the poll reflects more on the fact that 911 occurred than any Constitutional processes being violated.
Unlike other regimes, of which we are no better, when we find military personnel abusing prisoners, not only do we publish it all over the world, we try, convinct, and confine those that do so. yeah, we are a lot worse.
“With Putin killing off his rivals, do you think it’s all that far off that Bush is heading us there too?”
What’s scary is I think you really believe that.
Posted by: fleettwood | April 18, 2007 at 09:41 AM
<
Stupid thing didn’t post what I wrote.
—–
IT DID IT AGAIN. What in the world is going on? Anyway, I agree with Pmom, that’s the short of it.
The Bush administration hasn’t disclosed any intelligence in the past six years. When asked why Bush said, “We just don’t have any intelligence.” I couldn’t agree more.
Without commenting on the merits of the post by Doug, i have to agree it’s funny as hell
This just in from my news source:
Executive Order issued postponing Nov 2008 Elections. Due to undisclosed, specific threats to National Security, the National Threat Level has been raised from yellow to red. President Bush issued a statement that for the safety of the Nation, elections would be postponed until ‘this whole terror thing is worked out.’Sources in the White House indicated that the postponement would be indefinite at this point.
Heard the same basic stuff about Clinton fromc onservative friends. Didn’t happen then,won;t happen now.
“When you can’t defend or deflect… attack right Fleet?”
Noticing that you people believe that America is no better than any other “regime” is not attacking.
Posted by: fleettwood | April 18, 2007 at 10:34 AM
Fleetwood,
There is a clear distinction to be made between the ideals of America and it’s actual policies as practiced by this administration. When loyal Americans protest Bush adminstration policies that not only fail to live up to the ideals of our country, but are actually in direct conflict with those ideals AND our Constitution AND established laws, we are doing so because we believe America SHOULD be better than any other “regime.”
I recall a time not so long ago when red blooded conservatives spent all their time talking about how American was the greatest nation in history and the envy of the world. Now those same people are content to argue that America isn’t as bad as it’s enemies.
To use your formulation, noticing that “you people” advocate totalitarian policies and defend them by arguing that America isn’t as bad as our enemies isn’t attacking.
The Democratic majority has only been in power four months. Investigations into what the Bush administration has been doing for the last six years will take time. Or I should say will take a lot larger because the administration is not cooperating with Congress.
Funny how the GOP has made its living preaching smaller government. But now intrusive, big brother type government is what they defend. 9/11 changed everything…is their golden arugment. What a better way to honor those that died on 9/11 than to trample the Constitution in their name. The right ran on returning integrity to the Presidency after Clinton. But they are way more embattled than Clinton ever was. Clinton never breached the Constitution. Had he the right would have jumped out of their skin.
We watch as the country is taken to war on false pretenses. We look the other way when the the gov’t fails with Katrina. And we defend an administration that thinks the Constitution is some sort of toilet paper.
All in the name of feeling safe as we go to Wal Mart to buy the latest and greatest whatever.
“We watch as the country is taken to war on false pretenses”
The charges you ramble on about are serious, even impeachable.If any of it was true, you people should impeach. But it’s not, so you won’t. So stop rambling on or doing something about it. It only makes you sound shrill and look weak.
Please Fleetwood enlighten us all to 1 prewar assertion that turned out to be true. What is weak is you people blindly following Prez Idiot into the abyss. The GOP’s supporters today are the true sheep.
mike- What does that have to do with my post? You made the charges, not me.
If any of it was true, you people should impeach. But it’s not, so you won’t.
Posted by: fleettwood | April 18, 2007 at 01:29 PM
Please enlighten me to what was true.
Hey Fleety, I know it’s been pointed out to you but we can’t impeach the President, that’s Congress’ job. I’m sorry the obvious has to be pointed out to you.
“that’s Congress’ job.”
You people are running it. Bring it. Cowards.
I am just about tired to the this site. All the name calling is juvenile. Fleetwood you cannot seem to convey your points without calling names or trying to provoke some sort of fight. You win! We are all submissive to your intelligence.
Unfortunately, the decision to impeach does not rest with me. I think that Bush would be found guilty if he were impeached.
We are in Republican Kansas, so my letters to Brownback and Tiahart calling for Bush’s impeachment have not been acted upon.
Fleetie would love to see the Bush impeached so he could quit dragging the party to the dirt, I presume.
We’re in an intractable situation. In the Middle East and other Muslim nations, the average age of the populace is under 19. They have a lot more youthful energy than the U.S. and other developed nations, average age 40+.
Tactical A-bombs can cow older people. H-bombs could really pacify a lot of people. But with dispersed young populations, who are already willing to sacrifice themselves, it probably would ultimately fail.
If U.S. leaders wanted to stop Muslim terrorism from afflicting our country, the solution isn’t too hard. Deport all Middle Easterners who haven’t become citizens, and block all incoming Middle Easterners. Blockade our ports to 3 miles offshore and send teams with neutron detectors out to keep nucs and dirty weapons from getting here.
Now, you might say, that’s really harsh. Well, it’s harsh to pat-down and half-undress grandmothers, and airport-security delays are wreaking havoc on our air-travel system, and our economy. It’s harsh to arrest thousands of innocent Muslims and torture them.
During the Cold War, how many Communist Soviets and Chinese did we allow to come into this country? You aren’t an isolationist if you let in people from friendly nations, but exclude those from nations that procreate a lot of terrorists.
Who here wouldn’t rather restrict the “rights” of foreigners than American citizens?
The fundamental problem is our addiction on oil from “unstable” parts of the world, and what this does to our trade imbalance.
Saudi Arabia is not a modern state. Women there can’t drive cars, get educations, work in the normal workplace or divorce abusive husbands. An American woman married a Saudi guy, came back here with her children and got an American court-ordered divorce. He kidnapped the children and she can’t even SEE them, much less ask them, “Do you want to come to America?” These are United States Natural Born citizens who can’t leave Saudi Arabia.
If you say, “We can’t offend the Saudis, because they have oil we need,” Duh! That’s why we must become independent of their oil. Or else accept oil-country terrorism and domestic government actions to combat it that strip away our American-citizen constitutional rights and privileges.
Right Fleety, I’ll just write my congressman and tell him what to do and they’ll obey. Did you intend on looking this stupid? Maybe if more Republicans would resign in disgrace and let the responsible grown ups take charge then we can move in a positive direction. So far nuts like Tiahrt who ran on mandatory term limits still hasn’t left. Since he’s my congressman, and you say he’ll do whatever I say, I can just tell him to resign and he will.
Once again conservatives prove they have no grasp on reality.