New research shows shows that President Bush’s abstinence-only sexual education programs haven’t changed behaviors. In a survey of 2,000 teens by Mathematica Policy Research conducted at Congress’ request, children who were in an abstinence-only program were just as likely to have sex as children also taught about contraception. Those in both groups had their first sexual experience at the same average age — 14.9 years.
It seems sheltering children from the real world does not impede their eventual arrival there.
Posted by Ross Stewart
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Phantom on Open thread 11/24
- Phantom on Open thread 11/24
- charleskhyter on Huckabee felt costs of campaign
- donndublin on Open thread 11/24
- Politico on Moore has had enough of House
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/24
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/24
- donndublin on Open thread 11/24
- SolDevVB on Open thread 11/24
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/24
109 Comments
The article also said:
“Mathematica then did a follow up survey in late 2005 and early 2006. By that time, the average age for participants was about 16.5. Mathematica found that about half of the abstinence students and about half from the control group reported that they remained abstinent.”
Also, from the two city and two smaller cities used, I bet the majority consisted of bigger city kids. If they were to equally distribute where there were equal sized groups from each location, the statistics would be different.
Hmmmm, Nancy Reagan’s “Just say no to drugs” was a huge success and ended illegal drug use. I would have thought the “Just say no to sex” would have worked equally as well.
I think everyone agrees that the BEST choice is probably abstinence.
That doesn’t mean it is the realistic one, however.
Parents are the first line of defense here – sadly, many children either come from homes where no adult authority cares what they do – or their hormones are running faster than the school’s track team.
Our kids need education – but they need goals, too. A teen life without goals is a life that may soon produce an unwanted babe.
Contrary to what Hillary advocated about needing a “village” to raise a child, all it takes is a parent who cares and gets involved.
I have made it clear to my teen daughter that there ain’t gonna be no babies in this house. I have told her that, if she feels the need for birth control, I will get it for her. If she needs the morning after pill, I will get that for her too. I don’t preach to her about sex other than to tell her that you can catch nasty little things like AIDS from it if you ain’t careful. So far, so good.
The abstinence only program might have been more effective in the 1950’s, when casual sex was not on every television show and every movie, and teenage pregnancy was not a ‘normal’ thing.
Clearly, the abstinence only idea is out of touch with reality and the times we are living in.
Gotta agree with Kev on this one.. this abstinence only is about as effective as ‘just say no’ has been in ending illegal drug use.
Oooops. Sorry, Doug…too early and not enough coffee..
correction: “gotta agree with Doug on this one.”
And, am in agreement with Kev…a realistic approach is to recognize kids are going to have sex, regardless of what they are told. So a realistic, pragmatic approach to dealing with it makes much more sense than hiding our heads in the sand and pretending they are abstaining.
“as effective as ‘just say no’ has been in ending illegal drug use.”
I prefer ‘just say no, but thank you for asking’. We should be polite, at least.
Apparently it is just say, you just say no to sex! Cost couple hundred million, false sense of security to parents, Priceless!
“It seems sheltering children from the real world does not impede their eventual arrival there.”
I dunno Ross, what’s the pregnancy rate among unmarried teenage Amish? Done correctly, parental involvement and religious education can enable teenagers to recognize popular culture’s immoral values. And to avoid those situations that might lead to compromising their own values.
Abstinence only is idiotic. It will not stop “unwanted pregnancies”. According to the CDC there are 850,000 abortions each year in the United States. It is a reportable procedure.
It should be “safe and rare”, chich abstinence does not help at all. Go to the CDC website and look up the abortion stats, it will amaze you. Most who get an abortion have already had one. Most of the abortions are by women in the 17-32 age range.
CONTRACEPTION is the only answer, because people are going to have sex. EDUCATION is the answer as well, but “abstinance only” is a flag in a hurricane, simply will fail.
This is where I part with the Republican party. Most of the Fundies and “Kansas Talibahn” want no abortions, to do that you reduce unwanted pregnancy, to do that you use contraception.
Remember with 90% effictive rates on contraceptives, that would reduce the 850,000 to 85,000 OVERNIGHT.
SO for you idiots that want abortion to stop and are preaching “absitnence only”, are barking up the wrong tree.
That dog won’t hunt.
The problem with abstinance only is that half the kids are going to have sex anyway and probably won’t have medically correct information on how to protect themselves from STDs or pregnency.
I think the answer is to preach abstinance only, but also to educate the children on STDs, birth control, pregnancy and the reality of having a baby when you are not prepared for it.
Many of the teenage girls now getting pregnant, want to be pregnant. Some think it would be cool. Many also crave someone to love and some one who will love them.
I do think parents that show their children love and affection, live a sexually moral life and teach their children their values have a better chance at raising children that aren’t having children themselves. Parents also need to teach their children about sex and dating. You can’t just either throw the kids out there and say no sex or say you can’t date until your 21, it doesn’t work. Kids who are armed with values and education are in a much better situated for the marathon that is being a teenager.
Yup, we’ve been saying it all along.
But you can’t tell the fundies anything you know.
And Kansas abortion rate in the meantime went up 6%.
The teenage pregnancy rate is alarmng and sad. The abstinence only program focused too much on “not having sex” and no enough on choice making skills, on fighting peer pressure skills, and the real effects of having children. Most of these things should be taught by parents, but unfortn=unately are not. the school system is a poort substitute. I think abstinence should be taught by the school system,with a healthy dose of he above, and with a rational discussion of pregnancy avoidance.
I disagree with GS, I do think it takes a villiage. It always has ever since the beginning of time.
The reason why we have the problems we have today is because kids don’t have the community support and supervision they once had.
Used to be Mrs Smith down the road could call your mother if you were acting up. Now your mother is more likely to get enraged that someone accused their baby they did something wrong.
I wonder if Mr. Cho would have been better off if his community had stepped up when his parents failed? Maybe we’d have 33 fewer dead students.
P_Mom, please provide support for your assertion that Mr. Cho’s parents failed. From the discussions I’ve followed, it is likely he suffered from paranoia, and quite likely schizophrenia. In males, schizphrenia presents itself in the late teen years/early 20s, and is an organic disease. I’m at a loss to ascertain the “failure of the parents” here.
PM-I understand your point, but it clarifies even further that it doesn’t take a village, but rational, caring, involved parents who know what kids a capable of doing (including thier own), and appreciate when Mrs Smith does call. Instead, all kids are drug addicts and sluts (except mine of course), I am ltting my child “find” themselves, you have no right to tell me or my children what is proper behavior (I can live anyway I damn well choose), etc. That is not good parenthood. I disagreed with much o Hillarys premises, but many parents are too busy with “their own thing” to care about their children as long as it doesn;t cause them a problem. One thing is certain, the village will have to take care of your child if you don’t.
Are you people HIGH??? Abortion IS the ‘contraceptive’ of choice!!! Why be responsible and protect each other from STDs and protect a LIFE that might be the product of sex. Shoooot, just run on down to the abortion clinic. Get the boyfriend to pony up a couple hundred and get that ‘thing’ ripped out of her body.
PARENTS ARE THE KEY. Buy your son a CASE of condoms. Sit down with him and SHOW him how to use it. Yes that means you. Get the freak over it and do what a parent is supposed to do. Get your daughters on the pill or the shot. By your damn DAUGHTER a case of condoms and show HER how to use them.
Do you not understand this? We are talking about KIDS. KIDS are the PARENTS responsibility. Do your damn jobs and RAISE your kids. And quit killing babies because you are too – fill in the blank – of a parent t TEACH your own kids.
You’re correct, VT, but it doesn’t seem that he received any sort of therapy at all when he was at home. It wasn’t until he was in college.
And that is a failure of the parents (if that is the case).Kids can develop schizophrenia sooner in adolescence. And it appears he had problems with this kind of thing in high school as well.
LJ, my point was, we’ve got so many kids whose parents are afraid to send them outside, to the park, anywhere, they hardly live anymore. We’ve become a society frightened of everything. I always appreciate it when someone reports to me something I didn’t know about my kid. I don’t get defensive (unless it’s someone remarking about my autie’s behavior that he can’t control).
Oh Sol whatever. Abortion is not the contraceptive of choice except in the fundies.
Because for some strange reason, they (Catholics) feel abortion is less sinful than contraception. And of course, it’s ok if it’s THEIR daughter who gets the abortion because THEIR daughter isn’t that kind of girl, it was just a mistake, but anyone else, that’s wrong!
outlander recommends living like the Amish.
Real good.
Without cars, television, telephones, and an 18 hour work-day of hard physical labor, one would expect the unwanted pregnancy rate to fall.
Let’s see a show of hands for those who want to volunteer to live like the Amish.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Oh . . . and you also won’t be able to post on the internet or use a computer anymore.
Raise ‘em up . . . let’s see ‘em . . .
I will give my thoughts on this topic. I am a proud father of 3 great kids (2 girls and 1 boy). Up until this year they had attended a private Catholic school. We set rules at an early age for our children regarding dating etc.. No child shall date until the age of 16 no exceptions. We pound into them everyday the importance of education and exrtacurricular activities. We try to instill into the girls especially the importance of self confidence and having high self esteem. We tell them to not let anyone define who you want to be. My oldest girl that is 11 recently went through sex ed at school and came home with very few questions. We had discussed the anatomy of men and women previously and she had a great understanding prior to the class. It comes down to this…take the time to get to know your kids. Build them up so they don’t go looking for acceptance from someone else. Don’t underestimate your kid’s intelligence. Talk to them. So far so good in my house. If you eliminate the possibility of dating then you really don’t have to worry about them having sex.
Hmm… Where did I recommend anyone live like the Amish. I did point out the fallacy of a statement.
Capn America is being intentionally stupid again.
Yeah I was forbidden to date until I was 16 too. HA.
And I was raised in a fundie household.
That worked out well, didn’t it?
P_Mom, 850,000 abrtions. Really. why don’t you get a clue P_Mom? 850,000 abortions and it isn’t the contraceptive of choice. Are you lying to yourself?
Compared to HOW many millions of women in what length of time?
Get over yourself Sol.
Hey Tyler and others…
FYI…
Abortion Stats are not tracked in Alaska, California, Florida, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma. Thoes states no longer require reporting of ages or stats regarding the abortion.
So, thoes numbers you are reporting, are low.
My household is not a fundie household this I will tell you. The rules set are based on the society we live in today. Sex is everywhere on tv and we closely monitor what the kids watch. I would like to give myself more credit than to let my kids make their own decisions. They are KIDS afterall. Not a minute goes by that we do not know what are where in regards to the kids. I don’t know you PM, or know what happened to you when you were a child. I do know what I witnessed as an adolescent. Which was not that long ago….early 90’s. I remember how and why some kids that I went to school with got in trouble. I am going to stick with my plan. At least I have one. That’s more than some can say.
P_Mom,Look it up… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Number_of_abortions_in_United_States
P_Mom, you stated that you support killing kids that are just like yours. Why didn’t you kill them since they were oh so much of a burden on your life, as you have also stated.
Do your kids know that you support killing kids because they are imperfect like they are? Don’t candy coat it now P_Mom, don’t wimp out and say ‘women’s rights’ tell them the truth and tell them that you feel that kids JUST LIKE them should be killed, in your OWN opinion.
Wow Sol….thats rough. I don’t agree with PM on this either. However, to tell her kids that she supports killing children? How does a child process that information? How do they begin to understand the meaning of that?
Mike, the first time I had sex was in the barn at my mom’s best friend’s house (another fundie) with her son. I wasn’t more than 20 feet from them.
Just something to think about when you think you know.
Why? Because I was rebelling against rules I felt were far too strict, and since I couldn’t behave perfectly the way God expected me to, I felt like an utter failure doomed to hell anyway….so why not go full bang?
There was a report not long ago about high-schoolers who’d taken the abstinence pledge who were actively engaging in oral and anal sex, and considering themselve “virgins.”
Proudly wearing their “I Gave My Word to Stop at 3rd!” t-shirts, they went directly to hard-core porn-movie sex.
Then, considering Mark Foley and Ted Hagarty, perhaps the whole Abstinence-Only movement was a thinly-veiled recruitment tool for “conservatives.”
Hey SolDev, Question for you…
What do you do propose to do with all of the unwanted babies?
It has been proven time and time again that there aren’t enough foster families, there aren’t enough group homes, there isn’t enough money in the government budget to support these kids and the private sector has yet to step up and support them.
So, what are we to do?
Get real people. Your teenagers are having sex. And yes! That means teenage girls.
My daughter also feels abortion should be legal. She’s almost 17 now so I guess she must not take it too hard.
The thing is, she sees reality at school every day. I think I’ve raised her beautifully, she’s a good kid. A heck of a lot better than I was.
Mike, the only thing I’m trying to say to you is, even with the best of intentions…things still go wrong. I think your plan is fabulous, but don’t feel you failed if it just doesn’t end up that way.
P_Mom,I apologize for lashing out at you. I took out my anger at another situation on you and yu don’t desrve that. My truest apology.
Look, abstinence is the best policy. 0% birth rate (except for that ONE case… :-> ) and 0% chance of getting and STD. But y’all get real, teach your kids about contraception. Sit down with them, over and over again if you have to and TEACH them to protect themselves. End of story.
Tony,Raise taxes. Fine the people that produced the child. Fine the parents of the kids that produced the child.
It has been proven time and time again that financial motivation creates responsibility. Late DVD returns, speeding tickets, failure to pay your taxes. Forced and financial motivation to be responsible individuals.
Now THAT I agree with.
There’s nothing wrong with teaching abstinence, I taught it to my own child. But I also taught her about contraception as well and the facts of life, not only about the mechanics but feelings and situations.
She’s got a mother with way too much life experience.
And her brother is probably her biggest influence on why NOT to have a baby.
I agree with the post before the last one Sol. I totally disagree with the last one.
That’ll just end up with more dumpster babies.
I appreciate your insight into your childhood in a fundie household. But I will repeat myself. I am not a fundie and cannot stand the fundie movement. Personally, organized religion is a hustle. I involve my children in the church to provide them with a moral compass. I fully plan to educate my kids about contraception etc. when they reach the age to begin dating. Until then they will stay right under my finger. And I pity the boy that knocks on my door looking to take my daughter on a date. He will get quite an education on my rules and the consquences that come with breaking them.
“Raise taxes.”Are you kidding me? Aren’t republicans the ones against raising taxes??? Lol, ok, we can live with that one, lets see whats next:
“Fine the people that produced the child. Fine the parents of the kids that produced the child. “How do you fine a crack whore or a hooker who doesn’t have any money? Yea right, they will just go to a backdoor doctor and have it done.
“It has been proven time and time again that financial motivation creates responsibility. Late DVD returns, speeding tickets, failure to pay your taxes. Forced and financial motivation to be responsible individuals.”No it hasn’t, I have received dozens of speeding tickets… I don’t slow down, I still drive 80mph everywhere I go. I have books late at the library, so? I’m sure that people will still pay the “fine” to have one…I hate to tell you Sol, you are so wrong its unbelievable.
What is interesting is that it appears the consensus, even from conservative posters, is that the reality is that things happen, and that teens make poor decisions.
If it is proven that both forms of sex ed (complete vs abstinence only) have the same outcomes, but complete sex ed may prevent transmission of STDs, can the conservatives on the board support a reversion back to more complete abstinance plus programs that say that the “moral” choice is abstinence, but that if that choice is not made, here is what you need to know?
Scott, I’ll get behind that one with a bull horn. I’ll even do you one better, a program for parents to keep the training and education going at home.
This isn’t a problem of the education system. My God these are your kids and this is one of the most important lessons of their lives. Would you be willing to leave that in the hands of strangers?
Tony,
Better hope I don’t see you driving that fast around Wichita, I’ll call your plate in.
Kansas should have a law, three speeding tickets in six months and you lose your license. You would have to re-apply after you take a course in which you pay for and of course your insurance rate would double.
There is not a reason to put other peoples life in jeopardy because you want to speed.
Some days, I wish I had one of the emi guns so I could stop cars in their track.
Trying to get out of my driveway is impossible some days as people drive 60mph in a 35 mph zone. Then they get mad if I get a break in traffic like I don’t belong on the road. They don’t even have the courtesy to slow down from their illegal speed.
The difference between the pregnancy and abortion rate between here and Europe is not that they have less sex.
The difference is solely that they use contraception, and we and our kids don’t.
I suspect that using contraception is actually a way of taking responsibility for one’s sexuality.
You can’t claim that “it just happened” or that you were “swept away by passion” when you’re on the pill or carrying a condom.
We’d rather live in the fantasy that our kids aren’t having sex when we OURSELVES we having sex when we were their age.
That’s what I find so repugnant about the abstinence only movement. It’s all based on “do as I say, not as I do.”
I mean, you’ve got geezers like Bob Dole extolling the virtues of Viagra while at the same time telling kids who can have sex without drugs that it is “immoral.”
Which one of our high government officials wants to brag about how they never had sex before they were married?
How many unmarried reich-wing blow-hards like Ann Coulter, Matt (I’m Secretly Gay!) Drudge, or Rush Limbaugh are willing to go on record NEVER TO HAVE SEX until they’re married.
Again, let’s see a show of hands . . .
Tony,The point is responsibility. As long as a 14 year old girl can get her boyfriend to pony up the couple hundred bucks to have her kid killed, abortion will never be rare. By imposing, I don’t know, at least parental consent, we can reduce the numbers of kids killed.
If we can find a way to make these people more responsible for their actions, then we will kill fewer kids.
As to the thread topic, I say that begins and ends with the parents. A lot of these parents don’t take the time with their kids and make them understand that sex is for responsible people and there are many possible outcomes. Until parents take the responsibility of BEING parents, children will die by the hundreds of thousands per year. Is that something you support Tony?
Republican–
As you so often enjoy pointing out to others, please refer to the topic and note that your post is wholly irrelevant to it.
Thank you,
The Management
Parents need to take the front line in this discussion I admit but I also do think that the school system should also have sex ex, real sex ed with full consequences, including things about STD’s and pregnancy…
Parents need to also say the same thing where they can interject their “moral” beliefs, but I think it’s the job of both to educate our kids.
Personally, if I had a daughter, she would get the HPV vaccine as soon as she is allowed medically and she will be on birth control before she enters high school. I will tell her now to, over and over again, but I know she will do it anyway. As for my boys, im going to teach them one main thing, girls lie, they all lie, so don’t trust them than tell them not to have sex… I know they will, so I will also provide them with condoms if they want them.
Sol–
I don’t have stats to back this up, but of the few people I know who’ve had abortions, it was usually the PARENTS who wanted the operation.
Parental notification may only help people get abortions sooner . . .
Tony,Wow, all girls lie. Hmmm. Think I’ll let someone else jump on that one.
If you are willing to have your grandbaby torn apart, then I pity you. What a sad sad life you must have. It isn’t the school’s job, it’s the parent’s.
Whoops, my bad, the second half of my last post goes to Capn
“Parental notification may only help people get abortions sooner . . . ”
Hum… That sounds like a good idea…
Sol–
Any discussion to reduce abortions that isn’t based on contraception is not serious and will not work.
The Catholic church and its fundy fellow travellers (Randall Terry) hate contraception as much as they hate abortion, perhaps more.
That’s a big reason there’s so much abortion in this country.
Ok Girls… I’m here, lets have it…
How many girls out there have ever told a guy, “im on birth control” or “your the only one i have ever been with” or “im not messing around with anyone else” or what ever… Come on… Be Honest…
(I’ve said a few of those myself)
Sol – “Raise taxes. Fine the people that produced the child. Fine the parents of the kids that produced the child.”
Doesn’t that end up ENCOURAGING abortion? Just to avoid the tax?
I’d rather see us finding ways to do the opposite – find ways to facilitate birth and allow the mother to go forward with her life.
As for the boy involved – I can take care of that real quick. Two bricks … it’ll only hurt for a moment!
Tony,
I’ve never used those lines. I treat women with respect and am truthful to them. I don’t have to make up lies to cover my lies. You should try it sometime.
All,Look, the point of this whole thing is responsibility. It is the PARENTS’ responsibility to teach the kids – abstinence is best, but if not, then these are contraceptive measures. Teach them long, teach them well. Teach them about the outcome. No matter what your stance is on abortion, abortion is ending a life. Teach them that too.
Teach your kids to be responsible. It will make their lives better even beyond sex. Teach them to grow up and be responsible for ALL their actions. Then maybe they will bring their kids up the same way.
PEOPLE DON’T GET THIS. It is excessively frustrating. What I would LIKE to do is burn off their genitalia so that they may never kill a kid again. Pretty harsh. The only dissuasion I’ve seen really work with adults is to hit their wallets or take away their freedom (prison). So the least of what is on that list is money.
Is my idea feasible? No, but something has to be done about the rampant amount of kids being killed each year.
Hell, I’d support putting condoms in boxes of fruit loops if I thought it would help. Don’t y’all get it????
Ohhh… Good for you Republican…
Congrats, your in the minority.
And yes, I now try that, with age comes wisdom.
SolDev
So far you still dont have a SOLUTION to the problem. You say, stop it, but how do you fix it?
Until you can come up with a plan for thoes parents who dont want thoes kids to be able to have that kid and give it up to what ever system and have that kid taken care of until they graduate collage, than you wont/cant be able to ban abortion.
I posted this yesterday, but feel it fits again-
I have this idea for performing a reversible sterilization on all babies. After they are 18 and if they can pass an appropriate test of intelligence, morality, and self-sufficiency, the sterilization would be reversed and they could have kids.I am still working out the logistics of this idea but it seems like it would fix many problems.
sol, tony – I don’t think yoa and I are really as far apart as it seems. Support gerard House etc etc etc – find a way to allow the woman to give birth and walk away – hopefully a LOT wiser for her experience. Provide legal protections for all concerned. Lets focus on solutions; not just the problems.
Meanwhile, I’ll rent out my bricks real cheap …
Yea, thanks Ben… No bricks needed here… I think ill fix it myself…
Ben,Amen to that brother. Teach the kids first, and then support them if they make a mistake, but the parents of kids having kids have to have responsibility.
Germany had a problem with abandoned fetuses. They set up a program where the mother drops off a baby at a – for lack of better – baby drop box at a hospital. There is 0 interaction with the other. Shortly after the baby is dropped off (the baby is lowered into a heated cot) and buzzer sounds and a staff member collects the baby. They are having some success.
I believe New York tried this, but wanted the mothers to use fire stations. The human to human contact made when delivering the child killed the project.
Why not get behind something like that?
What about a state funded program to help the mothers deliver the children at hospitals, then allow the mother to just walk away?
How about hitting the televangelists up for some money. I’m not a fundie, but they seem to be the ones mostly on the soap boxes. Let them put their money where their mouths are.
Isn’t there a simular thing here where you can drop it off at a hospital or firestation?
Wannabe mother kidnaps newborn baby from hospital. Amber Alert. Wannabe sees news coverage becomes frightened. Wannabe drops baby off at baby box in another state. Baby is never reunited with birth mother.
Bob,
Thats why i think we should implant chips in the kids when born with the parents info in it. That chip would also contain all medical information.
Birth mother notifies police, police publish nationwide alert focusing on surrounding areas. Blood types, DNA matching, baby returned to mother.
Too many chances for system abuse by despondent mothers at the expense of fathers, etc. An anonymous drop box is not an answer. Abortion is not the answer. Teaching children contraception and safe sex is an answer.
Bob, I agree with the latter half, but until parents become responsible enough to raise responsible children, those children will continue to kill their children.
There needs to be some way for pregnant women to let their children live even though they don’t want to raise them. It isn’t the kid’s fault ‘mom’ doesn’t want them.
Making abortion safe and extremely rare is the answer. The only way for that to happen is through education. I have had several former girlfriends who have had abortions. All had their abortions because they chose to have sex without protection. One was fifteen at the time, the others were older. (None of the children were mine.)
Had any of those women had access to safe and inexpensive contraception, those abortions would not have been performed.
“safe and inexpensive contraception”
That is the key…
I know many girls who wouldnt have had kids if they had better access to birth control. There needs to be a dont ask, dont tell policy about handing out birth control…
“Had any of those women had access to safe and inexpensive contraception, those abortions would not have been performed.”
THAT is the KEY.
Take your pick fundies 850,000 abortions without promotion of reproduction education (which you refuse to discuss with your kids) and no contraception, OR
85,000 abortions with the 90% effective rate with contraception and reproductive deucation.
SO IF the fundies TRUELY WANTED reduced abortions, they would do anything to reduce that 850,000 number including tax supported contraceptives.
In promoting abstinence only education and policy, the Fundies actually are promoting more abortions.
THAT is the fact and consequence.
Here is another idea:1. There should be toll charged to anti-abortion picketers. The money raised would be used to pay for the deliveries of babies who otherwise would have been aborted.2. Anyone picketing at an abortion clinic must be registered as a foster parent, and be on an adoption waiting list
put up or shut up?
“And Kansas abortion rate in the meantime went up 6%.”
Kansas however is a destination state for abortions. So alot of those are probably on people from other states that come to Kansas to Dr Tiller’s hospital because it is nationally known. And Kansas has always been a state where abortion is easy to get. It was legal in Kansas before Roe vs Wade.
It is not just ABORTION that conservatives oppose. Most of them are also very opposed to any forms of birth control. They kept “plan B” off the market 5 years after Europe and canada had it. Again, this is NOT about abortion or babies with the conservatives. The REAL agenda is the control of women and women’s lives.
Kev,I hope the Wichita Chamber is taking note of your post, they are always looking for ways to attract people to visit our fair town.
Brian, while I loathe abortion protesters, I also would support their right to do so. I supported the limit on how close they could get for the bombing shootings thing.
But I wouldn’t try to restict their right to protest at a reasonable distance.
And GMC is wrong, this is about controlling what women do.
I agree with the drop offs-however how does a girl get the baby there without giving herself away? Getting there in the first place might be a problem. There are cameras and people all around.
Take Mike for example…if his daughter delivered, he knows where she is at all times, so how would she be able to get there without him knowing? and of course you’ve got the baby crying, kindof hard to keep that under wraps.
She should be able to drop that baby off anywhere and NO prosecution. There have been cases where drug addicts dropped their babies off anonymously and tested positive for drugs. And they went after that mother.
That has to stop.
Kev I have heard that all liberals like to have sex in the streets. The larger the audience the better. Conservatives are all over the place telling them to get a room but to no avail. I also heard that all liberals want to force all who make over $100,000 a year give any excess over $50,000 to a giant pool to be distributed to those who are living on minimum wage. The nerve of those liberals.
By the way I am one conservative who doesn’t care what you do in your bedroom. Saying that I care about full term babies killed in a barbaric way in no way limits anything about a womans right to have sex.
A new record for the dumbest post.
Grm, what the hell?
A woman’s right does not refer to having sex. It refers to her making decisions for her own body, sex..medical…jobs…
You heard all liberals say whatt????
Do you really want to lose control of your own body and what happens to it? Seriously?
political_mom,I am not against anyone’s right to protest or picket. I would encourage them to do so. I would, however, like them to put their money where their mouths are.
Brian, most of them do. Get to know a few, you’d be surprised at how they DON’T fit your sterotype. The true pro-lifers aren’t the ones wasting their time protesting in front of the clinics.
PMom, ever occur to you that if women TRULY controlled their bodies, most wouldn’t need abortions? Sounds like a reasonable goal to me.
“It is not just ABORTION that conservatives oppose. Most of them are also very opposed to any forms of birth control. They kept “plan B” off the market 5 years after Europe and canada had it. Again, this is NOT about abortion or babies with the conservatives. The REAL agenda is the control of women and women’s lives.”
Posted by: Kev | April 19, 2007 at 05:38 PM
I was just answering Kev above post and all of the others he has posted about how all conservatives want to run peoples lifes and interfere in their bedrooms.
It does kinda knock your socks off when it comes from the other side.
Generalizations are stupid and my generalization of libs was just that. Sometimes you have to shock others to make them see themselves as others do.
This is an argument that will go on and on. I just don’t think that late term abortion is about a womens body as much as the babys.
Many doctors testified when the arguments for this procedure were presented. Many said that it was far more traumatic to a woman’s body to have a partial birth abortion than to let her deliver naturally.
Mary, that’s the goal. Unfortunately there will always be a need. Whether it is from rape, failed contraception, or fetal or maternal problems.
Safe, legal, and rare. It’s not a pipe dream.
Pmom this is the post that I was referencing on the other topic with that over the top post.
Maybe overkill but you have to admit he was over the top.
“The conservatives are not worried about fetuses. What they are worried about is their loss of control over women. Conservatives always feel the need to control others and to think they are better than others. They are generally miserable people and misery loves company. One thing that bugs them more than anything else is that others might find fun in sex. Conservatives usually don’t enjoy sex. They consider it dirty and only do it to have little conservatives. So they want you to have to pay for sex with unwanted babies or AIDS if possible. They have, in a few honest moments, said so.
Posted by: Kev | April 19, 2007 at 05:37 AM
I disagree with you ksgm. It is not to control women’s lives. That is a complete myth.
It is religious in nature, not in control. Birth control and abortion is considered a sin in many religions, especially those of Christian religions.
But the same applies to many Muslim societies as well. Many people who are deeply religious believe the act of sex is for procreation proposes and not that of pleasure.
It just depends on what you believe. But to spin the debate to one that they just want to control women, is just a demagogy argument invented by left to justify that their position of pro-abortion is for the liberation of women, when it fact legalize abortion has nothing to do with a woman’s right to choose then it does that it’s a privacy matter, not a right to choose.
Care to explain Kennedy’s opinion then, that we women need protection from ourselves basically?
Well as a Democrat, or should I say, a member from the Party of God and also a complete womanizing asshole and let alone Catholic, I can only guess his opinion is wrong, just as his racist opinion on minorities was too.
I don’t hold Kennedy to a good light. Himself and his entire family are no good.
And it’s not about the liberation of women. I’m liberated and I certainly never had an abortion.- but the right to make our OWN decisions about our health and our bodies IS the argument
Joe I know many good conservatives who believe very strongly in birth control, we just think it should happen before conception. I don’t picket and have never tried to tell others how to live their lives but I think that abortion is breaking down the sanctity of mankind. The value of life is lessened whenever we make any segment of our society irrelevant.
By the way I couldn’t agree with you more about the Kennedy’s.
Pmom gotta go but I guess we will agree to disagree about somethings. I am a very independent thinker on most things but I think that a nation that put more value on the egg of a bald eagle than a human fertilized egg (baby) is going down a slippery slope.
It’s a cruel procedure. Probably one of the cruelest and as a society, we should try to minimize it as much as possible.
So I’m with you ksgm, but I’m not for banning the practice of abortion, especially during the 1st trimester.
Are you people even educated on what we’re talking about?
The SUPREME COURT JUSTICE Kennedy is NOT the same family as the lawmakers.
Please. Good grief.
Making up their own facts.
Sorry Political Mom! I had no idea you were talking about Justice Kennedy.
I thought you were talking about somebody else.
Ok! Can you point to the source were Justice Kennedy made reference to what you just said?
And I’m usually bad at skipping over a lot of post, so if I entered in and was completely off the mark, it’s because I’m not reading anybodies prior post.
When a thread gets above 30 postings, I usually just skip everything till the last post.
The ban on this technique, he wrote, will actually protect a woman from the grief she’ll feel “when she learns, only after the event, what she once did not know: that she allowed a doctor to pierce the skull and vacuum the fast-developing brain of her unborn child, a child assuming the human form.”
That is what Supreme Court Justice KENNEDY wrote in his opinion.
What is wrong with what he said? Do you agree that we should allow late term dilation and extraction?
To think that we are ignorant and stupid and need protection from our own decisions? Are you nuts?
Or just sexist too?
It’s the procedure.
They had merit.
But that saying! I don’t care. We don’t need protection for our own decisions.
I think we should legalize all drugs. Go ahead and snort your cocaine. I could care less.
We should also be allowed to eat trans fat. Cut ourselves. Hell! I’m even for selling your own organs if you want.
Also! We should be allowed to slaughter horses for human consumption. What gives the government the galls to ban horse meat for human consumption?
Avert the meaning of his words. Play stupid Joe. It really doesn’t become you.
Abortion has been with us since at least Roman times and likely long before that. Early christian women would get pregnant for the purpose of having an abortion on not all that loopy theological grounds.Various authorities have tried off and on to ban abortions, with little success. If there is a demand, for most anything, a supplier will be found. Basic econ101. Abortions in the first trimester were perfectly legal from colonial times until the repressive Comstock laws of 1869. Even then, they were available to most women who needed them. One of my ex-relatives was a chiropractor here whose practice was mostly limited to providing abortions. He had three friends in town, chiropractors, who did the same from about 1949- 1973, when physicians took over the trade.The right-to-lifers want desperately to take us back to the era of kitchen-table OR’s and less than perfectly sterile instruments. They want women to pay for their sins, with their lives if it be. Until that woman is their wife or daughter or girlfriend. When I did clinic support at several local clinics, I saw at least half a dozen women who the week before were screaming vile, hideous stuff at patients, get snuck in the back door on an off day to get their abortions.The only way we will ever get rid of abortions will be to develop a perfect pill for everybody, and you won’t get off it until you are deemed ready to reproduce. Even then, the human capacity to err will triumph, and some abortions will still be necessary.Abstinence? It spectacularly hasn’t worked among committed priests! How do you expect it to work for a bunch of teenage hormone factories? In fact, if abstinence did work, there wouldn’t be any of us here to blog about it!
“Abortion has been with us since at least Roman times and likely long before that. Early christian women would get pregnant for the purpose of having an abortion on not all that loopy theological grounds.”—————–
I’d like to see something to back up this assessment, Jed.
Obviously, you’ve got something in mind and you’re putting it across in a pretty strange manner, and I’ll bite…..
What the heck are you talking about?
Being honest, and I mean HONEST with your kids is the best way to teach future adults about the resposiblities of sex. My wife and I were up front with our two kids and what we did when we were that age. We also told them that we lived togther for a couple of years before getting married. That was when they were 12 and 16! Now at 21 and 25 hopefully, they are making good sound decisions about sex. Seven years ago, I was pleasantly stuned when my 14 year old son told me he hadn’t had sex and wasn’t going to until HE was ready. Now at 21 says he still isn’t ready! He is a strapping young man and has many dates….with the LADIES! Had to put that in because I know some clown would question his orientation! Our daughter is very mindful of what an abusive sex life can lead to. Being honest with today’s youth about sex is the key!!!
GS,It’s in the history books- at least those that don’t pander to the churches. The idea was:1. Original sin is a sin of the flesh.2. The soul is inspired with the baby’s first breath.3. A soul that remains unfleshed remains untouched by original sin and goes directly to heaven without spending ages in purgatory.4. Having an abortion allows the soul to remain unfleshed.Abortion for Christ was a popular christian practice in the early church, especially in the eastern Mediterranean areas such a Ephesus and Phyrigia from about the 1st to the 4th centuries.I might also point out that these people were considerably closer, physically, temporally and linguistically, to Christ than any christian today.