Wichita State University deserves credit for not overreacting to news that artist Tom Otterness shot a dog to death 30 years ago as part of an art film.
Yes, it’s a disturbing incident. And some critics argue the incident is reason enough to scrap Otterness’ $450,000 "Millipede" sculpture planned near the Ulrich Museum of Art.
But Otterness, a Wichita native, has made clear his profound regret about his action, which he said happened during a low point in his life. What’s relevant here is not a mistake that happened decades ago but the artwork and whether it meets the purposes of the university.
It’s worth noting that Otterness’ work "is probably some of the most community-friendly, family-friendly work being produced by a major artist in America," according to Adam Weinberg, director of the Whitney Museum of American Art in New York City.
Let the art stand on its own merits.
(It might be smart, though, for Otterness to make a generous contribution to a local animal shelter.)
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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132 Comments
Yes, it is a sad thing – but the man has come clean and expressed regret.
Everyone makes mistakes. Time to move on.
Some creative people turn out to be royal bastards (Picasso, Wagner, Tom Benton, etc.), but that doesn’t affect the quality and meaning of their art. Whatever Otterness may or may not have done in his childhood is irrelevant; “Millipede” is still a fascinating work that should be displayed.
Never would have known about it but the fact the Wichita Eagle wrote about it.
It’s meaningless to me. Man made a mistake, man regrets mistake, thirty years pass, man makes sculpture, end of story.
Well said GS. That was my thought when I first read about it.
GS,Republican,
Yet another issue where I’m happy to say we agree.
It’s amazing to me how far apart we are on other issues when you all seem so smart and reasonable in this thread!
WHAT?!? He did something wrong in his past? How dare he, his work should never see the light of day!We will never stand for this
Is it possible to be creative without going through some real pain or emotional problem?I think of Hemmingway, Poe, and many other writers.Van Gogh comes to mind as another painter.—–We allow animal experiments to test cosmetics, but there is much controversy on that score.I fully support animal testing for medical research.Most of us eat beef and pork and chicken regularly. Ever see a real packing house?—–Even if killing a dog for “art” is disturbing to some — it was 30 years ago. At that time, Hollywood frequently harmed animals for “art.”We have progressed, times have changed.Let it go, unless something more recent pops up.
Pall,”Is it possible to be creative without going through some real pain or emotional problem?”Not really, since this society heaps pain on it’s artists. Whether pain has something to do with creativity is presently untestable, since all artists get beat on, especially by you right-wing bastards.
JedToo bad we cant all be level headed and non-judgemental like YOU???You are a typical liberal.You can tolerate anyone you think is acceptable.
Now that we have mostly agreed on the artist, what about the art. A MILLIPEDE? Gotta think about that one.
What say you fellow bloggers?
What is wrong with you folks? I do like the art work, but he killed a dog for a movie! 30 years ago? So, what?
I thought all the buildings were falling down, also.If this guy was the last sculptor, we might have to buy it from him, but he isn’t.
I think the miilipede is kinda cool. I’m floored by the cost, however.It’s also interesting that the artsy-fartsy’s downplayed that dog thing. If I had done that, they wouldn’t be so forgiving.
$450,000 for a millipede?
I wonder what I could get for a centipede. . .Doing the math. . .$4,500,000!
Maybe we could get Halliburton to sell us meterpede!
Place the “millipede” in front of WSU’s library. Call it the world’s smartest and most valuable worm, the “golden book worm.”
By the way Jed, what do you have against Thomas Hart Benton and his wife, Rita? Quite a love story. Tom married Rita, his young art student, in New York and they spent a lifetime together. When Tom died in Kansas City in the mid-1970’s, Rita died only a few weeks later.
I recall visiting with then retired President Harry S Truman as Tom Benton was working on the mural in the great hall of the Truman Library in Independence, Missouri, in the very early 1960’s. At that time, I should have purchased one of Mr. Benton’s colorful “regionalist” paintings from him or I should say from Rita … his paintings are now worth a fortune.
Hey Pall,When I first started selling my art, I assumed that I’d be better off selling to the rich people. It didn’t work well; they liked my work, but constantly pulled some of the most outrageous stunts to try to avoid paying for it! I got mailed checks they “forgot” to sign, and then were “out of the country” when I tried to contact them, and all sorts of other excuses to not pay, or to try to pay less than the agreed price. All this was for less money than they often spent for a night out! After talking with other artists who got the same treatment, it became quickly evident how most rich people got that way.After a particularly bad spell of bad checks, I quit selling to anyone who made over 100K a year. While I never became rich, I’ve done quite a bit better than I did trying to deal with rich bastards, never got another hot check and my customers are much more appreciative of my work.
I thought the campus buildings were all falling down up there, but I guess if they can spend 450k on some visual oddity, they don’t need the money after all.
Wink,Tom Benton was quite an artist. My dad was one of his students when he taught at Kansas City Art Institute, and I got treated to quite a few stories of his eccentricities. His love affair with Rita was legendary, and at the time, somewhat scandalous! But he was also an opinionated asshole who insisted that his style was the only valid one, and demanded that all his students paint that way. As a result, post offices all over the country had murals painted (badly) in his style by his students who worked on WPA arts projects. Most have been painted over since then.The one student who overtly rebelled against his stylistic imperialism, Jackson Pollock, became a lifelong enemy.I suppose as a royal bastard, he pales somewhat in comparison to Wagner (anyone would- Wagner was a world class asshole!), but what he did to the American art scene in the 1930’s and 40’s would have been unforgivable if it hadn’t forced the revolt that became the New York School in the late ’40’s and 50’s, and finally put the U.S. on the international art map.
Bottom line here is that a CRIME was committed and I think he should be charged with at least a misdomeanor and he should have to do at least a weekend in jail and some community service time. As for his professional life, no I would not penalize him for that. But people that pick on animals and women are pretty worthless as far as I am concerned.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/artwork_show?21
Check the link for more images and others’ thoughts on Otterness’s work. The millipede, incidentally, was selected because of its relationship to the institution itself…an unwieldy many-legged thing trying its best to move in a singular direction (albeit clumsily and slowly!) Otterness is a more gentle Jonathan Swift; his work mocks our methods and instutions in a way that most can enjoy.His work is expensive solely because it is in demand and has been collected by some of the most prestigious institutions in the world.Anything can be art, or made into art, and has been so since about 1910. The question is no longer “Is it art?” but rather “Is it good art?” “Art” is contingent upon the values and forms of its culture: consider “Renaissance art” versus “Medieval art” versus “aboriginal art” versus “Native American art” versus “contemporary art.” all are very different because they are part of a particular value system rather than absolutes. How we judge it is based on the established conventions of the culture it comes from.
None of that was meant to defend the dog-killing, however. Some things are possible to be “art” but are considered unethical. Otterness knows that, which is why he has apologized extensively.
Artists tend to follow the rule of journalism: comfort the afflicted/afflict the comfortable.
Todd,
The 450K is PRIVATE money. THe university is not allowed to use private money for things the STATE is supposed to fund, such as building maintenance. The reason there is no money for maintenance is because the legislature has not allotted the money, and no one in KS ever wants their taxes raised for anything. The general populace and the politicians are responsible for the crumbling buildings.Not the art…and not the university.
G5,
Yes, I am a student.Yes, I do care about art.Yes, Killing of a innocent animal for fun and taping is demonic.Yes, WSU is once again not letting the community voice be heard.Yes, The people who are standing by this artist are the same who worship a false god.Yes, this piece of art will be destroyed by the students’ !!!!!
PETA anyone?
Thank you! – to Jed and delsol.
I especially liked the journalism rule you presented, delsol. That’s special. ;)
Oh, and on the art. WSU’s campus is bejewelled by great, great sculpture, and Otterness already has one large sculpture displayed there (3 fat figures w/umbrellas).
On the west side of the Rhatigan Center there is an art-Deco c.a. (I think) chrome torso that I’d give my eye teeth and maybe an arm to own (among many of the other figures). The centipede will fit right in under (and south of, I believe) Miro’s glass mural.
kev – I like your idea. Might not bother with jail time (all you do there is watch TV) but some time helping at an animal shelter might make sense.
Good comment above about the campus – I alays enjoyed wandering around up there. Even on a hot day there were nice cool shady spots to relax.
“I quit selling to anyone who made over 100K a year.”
You, sir, are either a liar or an idiot.
Pedant, the sculpture you mention on campus with the figures (2, actually, not three) is not actually an Otterness but is instead by Fernando Botero. An easy mistake to make, though, as their work is similar in content and form.
Otterness killed one dog, Bush and his business buddies killed…How many with their meddling in the mid-east?How about entire industries killing off however many humans with chemicals laced into tobacco?Oh – wait a minute, it was the college-educated kids that taught the high school dropouts on how to make crystal meth, cocaine, heroin, acid and LSD.Gee – that list can go on and on.
we should keep the millepede that is an interesting piece but take this oportunity to have the cut up communist guy in front of the wichita art museum removed. It is an eyesore and unhealthy sculpture purchased and placed more closely to the dog killing incident.
Flat,No, I’m neither, just an artist who likes to actually get paid for my work.
JedJerks come in all income groups.Jerks come in all denominations.Jerks come in all political parties.I am sorry for your bad experiences, but you must admit: there would be very little publicly displayed art without the generous support of wealthy and charitable people.George Ablah comes to mind as a man who has done very much in this area.George Ablah is the most humble and honest man you could ever meet.
Pall,Of course there are jerks all over; the jerks that bought my work and refused to pay were mostly oilmen- generally uncultured yahoos who wanted desperately to be seen as other than redneck. They collected fine art to have something snooty for parties, and did everything under the sun to get it for free, including stealing!The public display of art is designed to enhance the name of the collector, not the names of the artists he ripped off.As for George Ablah, I met the man only once, and he wasn’t collecting at that time. He did seem a few cuts above the standard Wichita millionaire.
Pedant,The WSU sculpture collection is fascinating, rich and huge. There was one though that bothered me a bit; an adolescent nude girl bronze that used to be outside the CAC. In the winter when she had 4in. of snow on her shoulders I really wished someone would take her inside next to the fireplace! They seem to have fixed that now.
Delsol………that was special……..”yes, this piece of art will be destroyed by the students”………yes, you are about to incite students to make the same kind of mistake that could go on their records that you deplore the artist Otterness of making some 30 years ago.
That represents the highest of thinking by a University Student. You should be proud.
Jed……..have you ever picked on a spider and stepped and killed it needlessly when you saw it crawl across your bedroom floor.
Oh…….you say that it is different to kill a puppy than to kill a spider?
I just love you educated kids and your convoluted logic.
Again
Oops…………change that to Kev about stepping on the spider and G5 about incinting the students to destroy the scuplture.
Misread the bloggers correct names.
Sorry!
blogger-The students will not need to be incited. They will damage it on their own. I say good.Compare a spider and a dog? Dope.
Oh my goodness…
First of all, the reason why this is going to be such a huge issue is due to the Student Government Elections.
It was because the sitting President (my friend) supported the sttatue and the Student Government Association (SGA) allocated about 150k from Student Fees to support the sculpture.
Well, the challenging Presidential Candidate was digging up anything he could to show how this was bad to get at the sitting President.
He made the charge about the dog incident and the sitting President brought it to the attention of the university to make sure it was true or not and figure out where to procede from there.
They contacted the artist and he fully admitted to it, apologized for it, and explained why he did it and that it was wrong.
So here we are 30 years later doing what?
They guy screwed up… 30 YEARS AGO!!!
He is not out there killing animals still.
If you oppose this art because of what he did 30 years ago then I would like for you to explain to me what it would take for you to not hold this act against him?
Also,
WSU has the number one outside art collection in the country.
We are known because of this.
It only makes sense for WSU to continue to expand on it to continue this great tradition of outside sculpture.
600k is not that great of an amount especially when it costs 50k just to restore and clean some of the art pieces WSU has on it’s campus. (Like the horse sculpture)
PETA is nothing more than an excuse for retarded children to go out and destroy things and commit acts of terrorism for their own perverted enjoyment.
If they really cared about animals they would be out at animal shelters, raising money for animal rescue, working for animal rescue, getting dogs out of puppy factories.
No, what does PETA do? They throw fake blood on people, they trash and vandalize buildings and business, they make stupid accusations on the beef industry…
Let me meet someone from PETA… my Parents do more for animals than someone in PETA does in a lifetime.
What a joke
Encouraging people to vandalize the statue?
Oh yeah, that would solve some problems. All that would happen is that people are going to get caught and expelled, go to jail, pay fines, and that statue will still be sitting there.
If it is damaged, it will be fixed.
So please go ahead and encourage vandalism like the simpleton you are.
Grow up.
Good comments Nathan. I agree that WSU has a fine collection, although I do sometimes look at items and think “what is that about?” Of course, that is what art is all about – inciting thought and feelings.
I’m with you – only idiots would be encouraging vandalism. The incident was 30 years ago, he has said he regrets it, let it drop. (although I did see an interesting suggestion by someone that he donate to the Humane society)
Fleetwood……….yea I guess that it is hard for anyone to admit that they kill animals.
Do you think that a puppy is a different kind of animal than a spider, mouse, grasshopper, cow or chicken?
You see Mr. Fleetwood……both you and Matthew Goad want to hold Mr. Otterness to a higher standard then either of you puruse in your daily lives.
Now then, I dare you to go to the statue and declare publicly before you go that you are going to vandalize the statue and even invite the police to watch your brave act of courage.
You won’t do that nor will any of the rest of you cowards whom might committ vandalism. You would committ your vandalism in the darkness of the night while keeping one eye out for the authorities so that you could avoid facing the consequences of your actions.
At least Mr. Otterness is willing to face the consequences of his actions.
As I said earlier, some of you educated kids really make me laugh at your convoluted logic and ability to twist the facts to suit your personal emotions and interests.
Did this guy pay for his crime, i.e. pay a fine, go to jail, get probation? If he did, then he has paid his debt to society. If he didn’t, fire him.It doesn’t matter what I think about vandalism. Whatever happens, happens. The PETA types will take care of the millipede without any encouragement from me.
“At least Mr. Otterness is willing to face the consequences of his actions.”
And the consequences are?A $330,000 paycheck.
Fleetwood,
The statue of limitations has long expired on his crime.
He has been a world renowned artist before his art was bought by WSU.
You are linking his profit to this act? That is plain silly.
His making money from this statue has nothing to do with an act of stupidty he committed 30 years ago.
I was wrong about the paycheck. It’s $450,000. So, if you kill a dog to film it and you get away with it, all is OK. I guess I am an idiot.
delsol – I think you may be wrong about where the money is coming from.
“The piece commissioned by Wichita State is a giant bronze millipede. The $450,000 commission was awarded last year. Another $150,000 would be needed to pay for shipping and insurance.”
“Another $150,000 would be needed to pay for shipping and insurance.”"
Maybe the Jeffery Dahmer estate would pay for it.
Fleetwood,
It is called a statute of limitations.
Sorry we can’t convene the firing squad for his actions 30 years ago.
…or in this case, a statue of limitations. :)
Make it right in your own mind, Nathan.
Fleetwood,
It is obvious you are upset about this. So why don’t we stop this little charade and have you tell us what you wan’t from him to resolve this issue?
What?
Good one, Repub. That’s funny!
Dear Fleetwood………I hope that you are not suggesting that because someone made a mistake and needlessly killed an animal 30 years ago, that we should prevent them from earning a living today?
Is that your argument?
You cannot hold Mr. Otterness to a higher standard that you yourself are willing to follow.
Have you never killed an animal needlessly?
Please don’t tell me that the Hamburger or steak or fried chicken that you ate the other day is not the needless killing of animals and that it is a different kind of killing of animals than what Mr. Otterness did…….surely you are more educated than that.
No, I’m not a PETA activist, but I also don’t delude myself into thinking that my choices to eat hamburger, steaks or fried chicken don’t create a killing industry for these animals.
I think it is time for you to offer an apology to Mr. Otterness for your own hypocrisy.
Just one more thing…….Who are you to judge how much profit someone makes on their work?
That is called the Great American Dream……….which is called Capitalism……..which is that we can take our dreams and turn them into profits, as has Mr. Otterness.
To take that away from MR. Otterness would be called Communism.
Don’t they teach that to you educated kids over there are WSU?
I think that it is easy to see that just because you folks get these fancy degrees that you still don’t have the one main thing that education can’t teach……and that is called perspective.
Excellent question, Nathan.How about half of the money to the mental health people in town?
Fleetwood,
Thank you for answering the question.
I agree that he probably should do something to show good will.
Half is a bit steep. Several hundred thousand dollars for killing a dog over 30 years ago? That is a bit out of proportion to the crime. I think you are being a bit unreasonable in asking he give half.
I do think a nice donation to the Kansas Humane Society would go a long way.
I will not put a dollar figure on what I think it should be, it should be what he feels is right to make good with his past.
Besides, we don’t know if he has done anything to make ammends or not. If he has already then is it fair for us to demand it from him again? That is another question…
Here’s one for you… Is he a pet owner now???
One thing, is it’s not taxpayer money. I am struck by the amount of support this guy is getting. Amazed, really. What does the Humane Society do with the animals that aren’t adopted? The same as what this guy did, without the camera. Money should go to help the sick bastards like him.
I looked up the statutes.
I believe that cruelty to animals resulting in death is a class A misdemeanor.
I am not sure exactly what the fines are or could be, but I think they are around 2500 for the offense.
So, how can we justify demanding this man pay more now for a crime committed over 30 years ago than the law even stipulates?
How long do think it will take for some frat group to put a pile of ‘millipede poop’ at the south end of that thing??!!
Now, that’s funny right there. I don’t care who ya are.
OK, so far so good. $2500 plus interest for 30 years.Nathan- Do you know this guy or have some other reason to defend him so strongly?
Fleetwood,
That is the current fine. If you want to add interest then lets look at what the fine used to be.
figuring that 30 years ago animal cruelty might not have even been considered a crime…
I said earlier that my friend is the sitting SGA President who is being attacked over the SGA supporting the statue with funds.
Either way, my opinion stands, but I am a bit more invovled and caring because I don’t like seeing dirty politics like this.
You probably wouldn’t even be hearing about this if it hadn’t been the other candidate using this a political fodder against my friend in the upcoming SGA elections.
Please don’t tell me “Hamburger or steak or fried chicken that you ate the other day is not the needless killing of animals and that it is a different kind of killing of animals than what Mr. Otterness did…….surely you are more educated than that.”
Oh brother….the lunatic fringe has weighed in.
“…because I don’t like seeing dirty politics like this.”
Dirty politics? Sometimes the truth is dirtier than the politics.
Accountants: What is $2500 plus interest for 30 years?
“Oh brother….the lunatic fringe has weighed in.”
Our vagitarian friend, blooger, doesn’t care that the fellow killed the dog, as long as he didn’t eat it.
PETA- People for Eating Tasty Animals.
Fleetwood,
That was not the fine 30 years ago.
You are still being unreasonable. You do understand that don’t you?
I appreciate your loyalty to your friend. You are backing the wrong horse.
Fleetwood,
Nothing I have written here is any less true because of my loyalty to my friend.
The only one of us who has shown and bias is you in your refusal to be reasonable in your demands towards this man.
Nathan……..you looked up that statues as they are writen in law today, or what they were 30 years ago?
Also…….this event took place in New York 30 years ago, so are you looking up the statutes that were written in New York 30 years ago.
I also love it when people dismiss logical thinking as the ‘lunatic fringe’.
I also rejoice in Fleetwoods lack of willingness to respond to the questions that are the logical results of his earlier questions, when the shoe gets put on his foot………….what’s the matter Fleetwood……….millipede got your tongue?
Again, I thought you folks were supposed to be educated.
Blooger,
No, it was the statuts in Kansas in present.
It was meant to be descriptive not specific.
In regards to your comments about needless killing:
The beef and poultry industry is not “needlessly” killing it’s animals. They are being raised to provide food.
Besides, the charge is not the needless killing. It is animal cruelty.
Neither the beef or poultry industry is being cruel to the animals as defined by law.
regardless, it is a far comparison what this artist did to a dog 30 years ago and what the beef and poultry industry do.
Fleet,I don’t support cruelty to animals, but if you really want to look at this, it’s like a cop coming forward and saying, I caught you speeding 30 years ago. I didn’t stop you or fine you, but now here is your ticket, with interest. And oh yeah, you can’t work in Ks anymore.
sol-#1) Call it what it is. Killing a dog. On film.#2) Speeding = dog killing? On film? Very weak.
Fleetwood,
The point was not to equate the two crimes, but to equate the insanity of holding someone accountable for said crime 30 years later…
Exactly. So how about he publicly – again – appologize for soemthing STUPID he did 30 years ago.
I only have been chiming in on this subject because so many were supporting the dog killer. I thought somebody should call him on it. I am still amazed by the amount of support the dog killer is getting.It’s not taxpayer money. I’m not a student at WSU. I’m not even an animal rights type. I don’t have a dog in this fight (get it?). I have said I like the sculptor. Oh, well. Uncle.
“I also love it when people dismiss logical thinking as the ‘lunatic fringe’.”
There is no logical link to killing a dog for “art” and killing an animal for food. So I’m glad you love it when people point that out, I’m happy to oblige.
Pedant, the sculpture you mention on campus with the figures (2, actually, not three) is not actually an Otterness but is instead by Fernando Botero. An easy mistake to make, though, as their work is similar in content and form.Posted by: delsol | March 27, 2007 at 09:49 PM
You know, I think I once knew that it was Botero not Otterness. Crap. (thanks for the correction, though)
Unfortunately, those weren’t the only mistakes in my post. The more I think about it, the more I become convinced that the chrome “torso” I mentioned (just west of the RSC, or the old CSC) is actually an armless chrome figure, striding and otherwise featureless (except that my memory tells me it’s surface holds an embedded grid). No idea why I would recall this armless figure as a mere torso, besides the obvious (brain damage).
I remember once walking east out of Jardine just about this time of year and finding the sky that odd jade green color that often presages a tornado (it had just finished raining, hard). This chrome figure was glowing an eerie green as it reflected the sunlight. Just visually striking. I found this eerily exhilarating as well. It’s an amazing if poorly remembered piece of art to me.
I’m going to have to take a walk up that way again. The outside art on WSU’s campus is just remarkable in its quality.
Todd,
I’m not wrong on where the money’s coming from. I’m on the committees that reviewed and approved it two years ago.
Sorry–I’m on ONE of the committees that reviewed it.
Pedant,Those are the kind of little epiphanies art people have all the time and wonder if others share in. Thanks for sharin g yours.
Pedant,Those are the kind of little epiphanies art people have all the time and wonder if others share in. Thanks for sharing yours.
delsol~ what makes the sculpture so expensive? Is it metal costs? size? etc? $450,000 seems very pricey (even if private).I’m just curious.
The point about the needless killing of animals regarding steak, chicken etc……….is that there are other choices I and you could make but don’t.
I know that it is not against the law to kill animals to feed us.
I am not a vegetarian………but my point is that it is still a choice that we these animals are killed, and that we simply choose to not exercise that choice to become vegetarians, just like we don’t exercise the choice to go down to the humane society and stop the euthenasia of stray dogs and cats………..by us not acting on these choices, we allow these animals to be killed needlessly……..because we all could make choices to save their lives, but choose not to for our own tastebuds, convenience etc.
I am the same……..I don’t go to the humane society and save animals and I eat steaks etc……..but again, I don’t delude myself into thinking that these animals could be saved by my choices if I choose to exercise them.
I am not better than Mr. Otterness………..I daily make choices that result in the needless killing of animals, just like you do I suspect.
Should we all be punished for making these choices?
I think not.
Todd……I simply take the examples posters have used on this forum and taken their words out to their ultimate logical conclusion and then posted the ultimate conclusions for others consideration.
When you read those ultimate conclusions and consider it ‘lunatic fringe’, what you are actually doing is to call the people on here who are for crucifying Mr. Otterness the ‘lunatic fringe’ not me.
It is hilarious that you can’t connect those dots.
It is not me you are insulting with your words, but rather those who don’t bother to take their simple comments out to their logical conclusion.
Killing an animal is killing an animal. Our society creates the justification, but it is still killing an animal. Just because it is legal has nothing to do with the fact that some animals are killed needlessly by both me and you.
There is a logical link because people don’t always kill animals for food………Have you ever been hunting or fishing in your lifetime and not ate the rabbit that you shot or the fish that you caught…….or was it always for food?
Haven’t you ever hunted a deer just for the trophy head and couldn’t drag the carcass to get it dressed out.
I have, but again, I don’t kid myself into thinking that that kind of killing is any different than what Mr. Otterness did……….surely you don’t make a distinction do you Todd?
The animals are raised just like wheat is raised. If we didn’t eat them, they wouldn’t be alive. Why grow them if nobody buys them? You could look at it that they get a few months of sunshine before we eat them. Now, I’m getting hungry.You Kumbaya types just kill me. If it’s not one thing, it’s another.
quick mathCurrent inflation cuts the value of the dollar in half just about every 14 years.In other words, 5% interest will double your money in 14 years, but 5% inflation will cut the value of that money in half!Anyway, even if the fine was $2,500 30 years ago, the present value of that previous sum, in dollars, would be roughly 4X or $10,000.00.
“$10,000.00.”
Plus another $10,000 for being an asshole = $20,000Pay up, nutjob.
Animal CrueltyPlusBedwettingPlusArson=The background of of most serial killers.
Some other sexual issues are often early indicators, as well, if found in combination with the previous traits.(I already posted that one on two other threads, not as brave today.)—–Anyway, this was 30 years ago. This guy has apparently not done anything like this again.Hollywood frequently drove horses and cattle over cliffs in those days, for “art.”Again, this is an important issue if linked to other problems.
He apologized.Forgive him.Let it go!
Paul – we are in agreement. But, it would be nice to see some sort of gesture as some of us noted above.
Damn, based on your profile, I’m a cereal killer and don’t yet know it.Die you Commie Cheerios. Die!!
Hi Sanford–As far as raw materials, an artwork like this has a lot of overhead (It’s cast bronze). Moreover, it cannot be done by one person and, like many artworks in the past, must be created with the help of gallery assistants.Then there’s the gallery that represents him (Marlborough Gallery in NYC): they take 40 or 50%.Then there’s all the extra unseen expense: the artist has to factor in his equipment costs, studio rental, postage, and everything else just like every other business. If you make 10 big pieces a year, the per charge cost goes up.
But the biggest expense is the charge for the artist himself–his resume commands a high charge, because he is in demand. Pure market economics: if you want an Otterness in the collection, you’ll pay a lot for it as long as his reputation and demand are high. He could not undersell his own established figure even if he wanted to because the gallery won’t let him “play favorites”–people get upset when they find out someone else got a piece like theirs for half the original price.
A very wild guess at the breakdown:Materials–$10,000Shipping–$150,00Staff–paid on salary, but let’s say $10,000 on this workUnseen overhead–$10,000 (he lives in Manhattan)Gallery–$200,000($380,000)Left over for Otterness–$220,000.Still a handsome living. But, like an athlete, an artist’s stay at the top can be VERY brief. You get what you can while you can.
Thanks del~ Gallery % is certainly something I hadn’t thought of.
“Left over for Otterness–$220,000.”
Very interesting. I am all for success. The more money made, the better. He gives $88,000 to the goverment, keeps $132,000.Where is the Lefty, Artsy bunch on him making some money? Where is the “nobody is worth that much” they lay on CEO’s? Hmmmmm?
Where are they on taxing him at 70% ??
To further clarify the funding, the Ulrich Museum not only has private funding but also has its own internal funding generated by de-accessioning, or seeling works out of the collection, that are duplicated or whose value has gone down, or which is no longer fitting the the museum’s mission (say, it’s from the wrong time period). Much of the 450K came from the museum’s internal funding. De-accessioning is thoroughly vetted by multiple parties just as the purchases are.
The Student Govt has a history of helping maintain the collection by using student fees money to buy or maintain artworks. In this case they were approached to help out with the 150K for shipping. They agreed, but one person decided to sensationalize the story in order to launch his own campaign.
None ever mentions the “real cost” to students for projects like this:$150,000–$50,000 over 3 years.1 year=2 semesters=$25,000/per semester.WSU =15,000 students per semester=$1.67 per student.6 semesters@1.67 each =$10.02 total.
Very few artists, proportionate to how many there are, make that kind of money. But there are “art stars” who make a fortune at the top of the pyramid.
“Where are they on taxing him at 70% ??”
Dear Math Major:It’s 40%.
:)Math Major is not an artist!
Forgotten in unseen costs: creating preliminary models– materials and labor: $10,000.
I also think it would be nice of Otterness to publicly donate a portion of the commission to an pro-animal organization of his choosing.
Check out the big math brain on del!! ;-)
Flat,I’m not against artists getting paid for their work- better than getting paid for playing with office toys! The part that bothers me is all the middlemen who keep their hands in the artist’s pocket. When the gallery wants more from the sale of a work than they give the guy that actually did it, the system’s out of whack. Same argument for the CEO’s!
“Same argument for the CEO’s!”
HA! I told you so! LibS hate success. Another plaque for me!
fleetwoodWho is LibS? I love success. Show me the money baby!
Hey Flat,I’ve got no problem with success, unless you define success as ripping off everybody in sight!
Uh……..so Jed………what do you define as ‘ripping off’……..don’t you get it that Capitalism has no ceiling when it comes to profit?
In Capitalism, there is no such thing as ‘ripping off’.
You college kids and your idealistic notion of how things are supposed to work is so funny.
Wait until you have kids, mortgages, college educations to pay for, cars, car insurance and the lot of it………and your boss comes to you and says you are doing a great job and wants to raise your pay another 15%, and I suppose that you are going to turn it down, because some college kid may say that you are ‘ripping off’ your company for being overpaid for your job skill.
Ha!
The unasked question here is what does the centipede contribute to WSU and the rest of the community and does it merit the cost?
In Chicago’s almost new Millenium park they paid something like 35 million for a chrome shiny large (est: 40 feet tall, 70 feet wide) bean shaped piece of artwork that you can walk under and touch. It is part of the draw for tourists to downtown Chicago, so you can make a case that it is worth it because it contributes to the mission of the park and generate more revenue for business and taxes for the city. Will the “Big Bug” (it needs a catchy nick name – it’s called the Bean in Chicago but the actual title is something like reflections of a cloud ) do the same for WSU? It certainly can contribute to the reputation of the Ulrich, but how many potential students / parents will see it and say — hey nice bug, you should go to WSU — will it help fix the broke plumbing?
I would think a good capitalist could crunch the numbers on that and see how good a deal it is.
Ken…….I think that the ‘Art Committee’ who reviewed the artist’s proposal was charged with making that decision on the front-end and they decided that it wouldcontribute to WSU and the rest of the community and was worth the cost.
Otherwise, I don’t think that those in charge would have elected to move in the direction of the Otterness sculpture.
Why can’t we accept that their decision and move forward and embrace their decision?
The artist should sing;
“Walk a mile in a millipede’s shoes”
The artist should sing;
“Walk a mile in a millipede’s shoes”
Booger,”In Capitalism, there is no such thing as ‘ripping off’.”Yeah, tell that to all us Westar customers, and the employees and stockholders of Enron, etc. etc. etc….
Dear Jed……it is your conclusion that Mr. Otterness has somehow broken the law (as in Enron and Westar) by the amount he has charged to design and create the sculpture Millipede?
Just what law has Mr. Otterness broken if you don’t mind stating so?
Please just cite the accounting principles that he has violated in his fee to WSU.
Booger,Nope.
Paul – ouch!
;^)
I must admit that I fine insane what some artists charge for “art.”
What about the artist who works for Hollywood on a salary basis and makes let’s say a, millipede. You know what they call it in Hollywood?
A prop.
What if an artist makes a millipede of plastic and some engineers put motors and gears in it. What do you call it then?
A kiddie ride.
My point is, that the two examples I provided would charge no where near the 450,000 that this artist did and their “exhibits” may have more viewers and more participants in the post effect process.
Dear Jed……I didn’t think you would.
See you are trying to switch and bait the principle of Capitalism with Accounting Fraud which is a violation of SEC rules and regulations for Publicly Traded Companies.
Mr. Otterness is not guilty of anything……..you know it, I know it, and all who read this site know it.
Capitalism is simply being able to get someone to pay for your services,products or whatever (I didn’t major in Economics).
That is all Mr. Otterness has done here with his fee to WSU……..simply charge the going rate for his sculpture.
Certainly I give much, much more credence to those on the Art Committee who participate and live in that world to determine if it was a fair price, and as I have stated before, they made that determination a year or so ago when they presented their ideas to Mr. otterness.
They knew who they wanted, they were told of the cost, and their decision was to move forward.
Jed, your statement stating that Mr. Otterness ‘ripped off’ everyone implies that the Committee whom are experts in this type of Sculpture acquisition are all guilty of being the stupidest people on the world and that they didn’t have the foresight to realize that they were being ‘ripped off’ as you call their decision.
Uh Jed………I think that any of us reading this site, will completely agree that we leave the business of determining fair market value for Art Scupltures previously purchased or that are going to be purchased in the future to those experts that were chosen to represent the Sculpture Committee at WSU.
If you think that you have some special talent for determining rip-off art, then why not get yourself elected to the Art Board………I am sure that your expertise will really impress them and they will be more than happy to elect you unanimously.
I welcome your participation on the board.
You can protect all of us from being ‘ripped off’ in the future with your knowledge.
As a matter of fact, I am going to hereby christen you by your new name………Art Genius……instead of Jed.
So Art Genius keep us posted.
Where have you been all these years?
Get a grip Art Genius, and go to WSU to learn the difference between Capitalism and Violations of the SEC with Publicly Traded Companies like Westar and Enron.
You are truly confused…….I noticed you never did answer my previous question about what you would do if your boss came to you with a raise and someone said you were being overpaid for your work………..well Art Genius………….would you turn it down?
You really don’t have the kind of courage needed to honestly answer my question, because it would expose your hypocrisy.
Dear Republican……..that’s because the going market for kiddie rides is a commodity and the going market for Hollywood Movie Props is also a commodity (although I think you are mistaken in your belief that some of these Hollywood Props don’t command huge dollars)……….but nonetheless, they are still a commodity and in the art world it is a rarity.
No different than if you were in the middle of nowhere starving and dying of thirst…….how much would you be willing to pay to have a cheeseburger and a ice-cold coke……….I bet it would be much more than the going rate at your local McDonalds……….as a matter of fact, I bet you would pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars for such a meal under the right circumstances of dying on a desert.
The art world is a highly selective niche in the economy and that is what drives up the prices. Limited if not one of a kind creations and the demand.
No one denies that if Mr. Otterness were an unknown and just a local guy graduating from art school at WSU and they asked him to do the sculpture that he would probably charge just time and materials plus a modest profit, being happy to do the job.
But that is not the position Mr. Otterness is in right now………he is considered one of the great modern sculptures of our time by those that follow that world. I don’t so I wouldn’t really know one way or another.
Yesterday Brittany Spear was just dancing for disneyland for minimum wage………today she commands the highest fee of any star in the world.
Don’t equate the rides out at Joyland to a one of a kind sculpture in the world and wonder why they don’t cost the same.
Hey……I use surgical instruments……and those chrome plated screwdrivers that I use probably cost hundreds of dollars and I know that I can purchase the exact same thing at Sears without the chrome………but the pricing that those vendors gets are simply what the market will bear.
Certainly the Hospital could go purchase them at Sears…….but there is something about the shiny chrome ones that the Hospital even likes I guess.
I like art as much as the next guy. Been to the Louvre, been to Rome, seen it, done that.
Beauty in the eye of the beholder still holds true.
What I don’t understand about art is that the same people who pay enormous prices for art will find the soft spot in the heart about people who are starving, then write out a $10.00 check. The day before, they may have written out a $450,000.00 check for a stone millipede.
Some I think study in Art and Humanities has its priorities confused.
Uh, Booger,That’s not even remotely what I said. Please scroll up and read the whole thread (the scroll control is that little wheel in the front center of your mouse).
Pubican,”What I don’t understand about art is that the same people who pay enormous prices for art will find the soft spot in the heart about people who are starving, then write out a $10.00 check. The day before, they may have written out a $450,000.00 check for a stone millipede.”I have to admit that I don’t understand it either. Culture is a wonderful thing, but it’s difficult to appreciate it on an empty stomach. I’ve missed enough hamburgers to know.Further, what those “patrons of the arts” get when they buy a work for big bucks is simply a fragment or by-product of art.Art in a very real sense is a visual conversation among artists on a wide variety of subjects. Owning a work is like owning a page of a book; it’s pretty meaningless without context. It’s the people who pay attention to what’s being said in artworks who benefit culturally and often financially from art, the designers of our buildings, parks, consumer goods, magazines, books etc., and who ultimately make the message of art intelligible to everyday people who have neither the time nor inclination to keep up with what a wide range of artists are doing (yes, I know, a trickle-down theory, but this one works).While I appreciate the people with the bottomless checkbooks purchasing art, it’s a system that doesn’t work very well. We need a better system for compensating artists that recognizes their contribution to our culture and economy on a broad scale, and doesn’t depend on the galleries’ designated superstar of the year.I wholeheartedly approve of the huge public collections such as WSU has, and I don’t in the least begrudge Mr. Otterness his sale. It’s a nice piece, and I can say with more certainty than anyone else here that he earned every penny!
Poetically drafted and delivered Jed.
Republican,Jed’s comments about art being a conversation are on the mark: the point has always been, throughout history, for the artist to create some form of visual expression that invites thought and response on the part of viewers. It is a very indivdiualized thing but not wildly so, because art changes and conventions develop just like languages and cultures. If you study and engage with art, just like language, you will begin to understand its conversation. Without attempt to engage, it remains foreign. I dare say that you may think you know what you are looking at when you view a Renaissance painting, but that there is a much richer story beneath the surface.
The principle that you have missed with the toy ride analogy is that the things you list are pre-determined forms (like a chair)that can be followed by anyone and still function; art is opposed to mimicry and mass production. In fact, “function” is a fundamental difference between art (millipede) and craft (toy ride): art does not seek to have anything other than expressive or cultural function. It does not serve a particular purpose other than that.
Take an art history course at WSU. You’ll be amazed and enlightened at how rich a subject visual art is, and how well it intertwined it is with history, archaeology, philosophy, and more.
Jed
Were you not the one who posted the following?
“I’ve got no problem with success, unless you define success as ripping off everyone in sight”.
Were you not implying that Mr. Otterness is ripping off everyone in sight in that post?
Did you not post the following regarding “ripping off”?
” yeah, tell that to all of us Westar customers, and the employees and stockholders of Enron, etc. etc.”
Wherein you implied that Mr. Otterness is guilty of the same Law Violations that Westar and Enron were convicted of?
If those were not your posts, then certainly it is my mistake, but if they are your posts, then my comments stand, and your continually avoiding my questions and your inability to answer them simply proves my point.
Oh……..so that’s how you scroll up……..you use the little wheel.
Thanks for your insights.
So it was not you who posted:
“
Booger,Yes I was the one who posted those statements, and you were the one who took them out of context and tried to construe them to mean something entirely different. Scroll a bit higher and read this time!
delsol,Thank you for your comments. We are for the most part in agreement, but being myself an artist/craftsperson, I would beg to differ to some degree on the issue of function. May I assume that you are a painter?If you would like to discuss the issue, my e-mail is live, just click on my name.
Yes Jed, I finally got to read your opening comment at the top of the page.
All you ever had to say was that you thought I was taking your comment out of context and that you did not mean your comments to be applied to Mr. Otterness.
Since this thread generally is about Mr. Otterness, I hope you can see how when I read your comments, that I simply assumed that you were referring to Mr. Otterness as someone who had ‘ripped off’ the public with his fee, and how he was as guilty of doing that as (your words) “Enron and Westar”.
All you ever had to do on this thread was to elaborate a bit and clear up my misunderstanding.
I accept your words that you did not mean to imply that Mr. Otterness was guilty of ‘ripping anyone off’, or that he was guilty of commiting the kind of crimes that ‘Enron and Westar’ have been convicted of.
Delsol,
I’ve taken humanities courses and they talk about how culture reflects on art and vice versa. And how one can interpret period or era art because of the style, how it derives style from its genre of the contemporary human condition and all that.
I’m not conditioned to be an art lover I suppose. I admire art, but don’t spend a lot of time on it or thinking about what it means. Must be the caveman in me.
Republican,Don’t worry about it. I don’t expect, and I don’t think delsol expects people outside the arts community to keep up with the conversation; it can get awfully convoluted at times. What we do want you to understand is that the conversation exists, is ongoing and has a continuing impact on your world as well as ours. Luckily for all of us, good art can be read on several levels. The hypertext communication between artists that exists in an artwork soon spreads out into the culture at large by way of design in nearly every product and medium imaginable, translated into more familiar language, so you really aren’t missing anything.
I remember when I was in high school I was into art but had no idea how to explain its weirdness. Now that I do, I recommend that those not inclined to study appreciate it on its own terms and acknowledge that, for it to get into a museum that artist’s work has been validated many times over by those in the know. Doesn’t always mean they’re right…but their lives are spent reading, looking, absorbing and contemplating art and much of its history.
Jed…Yes, you have made good points. I think the big difference for me is that “craft” tends not to take a particular point of view. As soon as it does, its function becomes secondary to its expression, and it has croosed the boundary from “applied art” to “fine art.”
Thanks again to delsol and Jed for what has got to be a unique discussion of art and its reflection in pop culture here on the WE webblog.
Very high quality dialogue, imho. (I’m no artist, but I like to feed my vanity by thinking I know art when I see it; I learned here that I don’t pay enough attention to “the conversation” to understand the larger context underlying visual art).
Rhonda, do you think there’s enough demand for conversation of this kind to deserve a separate forum sponsored by WE? I suspect there is, if properly structured.
Thanks again. Christ, if I only had the time for an Art History course at WSU. I guess that and world history and topography and philosophy and number theory and abstract algebra and…it’ll all have to wait until I get the time.
Thanks once more!
Thanks for following along, Pedant. Jed is right in saying that art can be appreciated on many levels even when it’s downright confounding. It’s not always easy to understand even for the practitioners, and there’s enough subjectivity that we don’t always agree, which is part of what makes it fun. Art is essentially philosophy, which means debate is inherent. We often wish for more debate rather than sensationalization–because using numbers or isolated past incidents minimizes actual discussion about the work’s context, content, and actual merit.
I have to go look up that business about the chocolate Jesus now! :)
delsol,I looked it up already- nothing much out of the ordinary except the medium.
Apology? I have yet to see one, His studio released this quote
“In 1977, I was a young artist having a very rough time,” the statement reads. “I had anger at myself and at the world. What I did was symbolic of how I was feeling internally and it is something I would never do today.” Damn, Dennis Rader could have walked free with that statement if the artists were on his jury
“I have struggled with my action for 30 years and continue to do so to this day. It is my hope that my friends in my hometown of Wichita will come to accept and embrace the giant millipede, which I am very proud to have join WSU’s prestigious sculpture collection.” Translation, I’m from Wichita, I’m an artist, and I can sell them something
Granted, the “incident” did happen a long time ago. Times have changed, a short time ago a puppy called Magnum was found, burned with acid, and there was much public outcry, and also there was legislation. It is not a PETA thing it is not a vegetarian thing. It is taking a stand for the ones who trust us, (the animals, for those of you with a college education.) Adopting or taking an animal in is a wonderful thing. Kudos to all of you who have done so. Killing said animal, not so good, it is not artistic. It is a sign of sickness. (but I’m feeling much better now) That is how most serial killers got their start. Forgiveable? Perhaps, but not with the above statement.
A donation to the Humane Society? Do I smell politics? Here is a token of my shame. Gosh I would be glad to donate $1000.00 to you just so I can make a whole boatload of money. How about a real apology, how about giving that 450K to the humane society. (along with an admission of guilt and an apology)
Speaking of politics, Good for Matthew, well played, someone obviously didn’t do the research into the background of the artist.
I will admit I am an animal owner. 3 dogs, all from the humane society, and 3 parrots, none are wild caught. Just a few more statistics for you:
There are over 130 million dog and cat owners in the US today. They spend over 32 billion on their pets. How many of those reside here I must ask myself.
My end reaction to all of this is: Shame on you, who support this and invite this type of controversy into this institution. Killing Jews = bad, (see Hitler oops that was a different time) Dropping the N-bomb (again bad) paying someone who killed a dog for the sake of art 450K ( bad decision)
For those of you thinking about destroying the “artwork.” Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do! I do not support vandalism, but isn’t WSU opening itself up with this controversial piece?
Art is best if taken as a collection, if you want to embrace the artist, embrace his entire catalog.Perhaps WSU can get Roman Polanski to sell them something. Maybe Barry Bonds can give some words of encouragement to the baseball team. Perhaps you might get Kenneth Lay to teach some business classes. WHAT THE F HAPPENED TO INTEGRITY?