As we’ve mentioned here before, the online magazine Slate has had ongoing articles exploring whether the tales of Vietnam-era vets being spit upon were more urban myth than reality. Media critic Jack Shafer didn’t deny that such incidents might have occurred but maintained that no credible contemporary documentation of such events — news reports, crime reports, etc. — has ever been produced.
But Shafer’s most recent posting on the topic allows that some evidence has come forward: He found a 1971 CBS report on one Delmar Pickett Jr., a returning vet from Kansas who said he’d been spit at in the Seattle airport. Shafer got in touch with Pickett — now living in Wichita — who said the incident did happen, although his memory was a bit fuzzy on some details.
There seems to be credible evidence that at least some of these spitting incidents occurred, so they’re more than urban myth. That still doesn’t mean they were commonplace, as some people suggest.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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34 Comments
Maybe not commonplace, but certainly more than Shafer wants to admit.
The fact that ANY happened is a shame and a disturbing legacy of liberalism-gone-awry.
I knew many of the people in the anti-war movement here. All were very careful to channel their rage toward the White House and the Pentagon. None would have wanted to do anything to retuning soldiers.Now no movement can control all of it’s supporters, and I’m sure such incidents did occasionally happen, but given the thousands of people involved in the anti-war effort, they were damn few.
I regret that any soldier experienced any of that kind of insult, but this isn’t “liberalism-gone-awry”. If you are purposely trying to slam liberalism, then I see why you say it. You should acknowledge your political objective, instead of misbranding this ugly behavior for selfish reasons. But this was “anti-war fervor” gone awry. In retrospect, I am sorry for some of the last of those 50,000 dead that the leaders of this country did not come to their senses sooner; did not take to heart the anti-war message sooner. But this is still no excuse for mistreating our soldiers.
If there is an exaggeration needed, an over or under estimate wanted, a brush that can paint it broader in order to show a Democrat in a poorer light then GSheridan is your gal. She has the art perfected and will remain more partisan than others can even imagine. She can stir that pot.
Either it did happen or it was one of the widest spread legend without the aid of the internet.During the Sixties and seventies almost daily I was hearing of it happening, but now do not recall it being on the news.
But Jed’s point is valid, either we can judge the entire Pro-life movement by the acts of the likes of Eric Rudolf and Operation Rescue. Judge the entire Christian faith by Pastor Fox and Jerry Farwell and Fred Phelps. I do feel that as a nation WE owe those that served in Vietnam a debit, if you see someone that is wearing a cap that states they are a Vietnam Vet, if you over hear someone mention they served in Vietnam. Walk up to them and shake their hand, welcome them home, tell them “job well done!”.
For that matter anyone that served deserves the same treatment, it is not just their country they served but your too. If enough of us do just that, take just that small amount of our day to shake a hand and welcome our vets home. One mouth full of spit will mean nothing to the thousands that served, if their hand is shook by ten thousand others.
To be fair, Linda, you might reread my original post. I stated “liberalism gone awry,” not, specifically Democrats. At that point in history, a number of the spitting protestors weren’t affiliated with ANY Party.
But they DID consider themselves to be liberals.
The words, “democrat” and “partisan” are your own spin on my post, and do not reflect my opinion.
Fair enough about this post in this thread. You only made something that you said maybe wasn’t commonplace into a disturbing legacy.
But I was generalizing (as I accussed you of doing) based on my knowledge of your posting over a few years. So in turning over your new leaf I guess I will pay very careful attention to what you say in the post I respond to only. Got the rules straight and will go forward!
I want all of you to picture this in your mind: A US Marine or Ranger has just been through a tour of duty. He has been through a year of hell and seen blood guts and combat. He is tough, fit and angry. Now he is coming home and gets off a plane at a US airport. Now a long haired hippie with a flower in his hair walks up to the soldier and shouts “baby killer” and proceeds to spit on the soldier. Now, I want all of you to imagine what will happen next. Do you really think the soldier will weep and go call the newspapers and tell them about how this hippie picked on him at the airport?? If you really think that is what would happen next, you been smokin something better than the hippie has. That is why this is a MYTH.
No problem, Linda, I simply view the current Democrat Party much different than that of thirty or forty years ago.
Remember when John Kennedy told the USSR to turn their ships around or he would blow them out of the water?
That’s not something I can imagine hearing one of today’s Democrats saying….although Hillary actually might. lol
But, to me, the persons who treated the soldiers poorly were not necessarily associated with the Dem Party back then, they seemed to be anti-establishment of all kinds. Some formed their own groups, some associated with the Communist and Socialist Parties, etc.
When viewed from that angle – it makes me wonder what another few decades will bring.
GS, YOU are good girl! But, I’m learning and although not up to snuff yet I WILL get there. I’m capable.
I will never treat a soldier poorly due to his or her service. Each one is doing a job I am not willing to do. I thank them for their service. It isn’t theirs to decide whether the battle has merit only to do their duty.
If being anti-establishment is bad count me among the guilty. I have never felt more revolutionary, more ready to revolt, and very ready for change. Government of today is endangering ME, not keeping me safe, not looking out for the best interest of its citizenry, not representing its citizens well. I am very ashamed and disappointed. I’ve never seen worse than Bush and his cohorts. Their intentions are evil and despicable.
However, neither am I proud of politicians of any ilk or affiliation who are completely enamored of power and money. We seem to have the shelves stocked with many who aren’t even intelligent let alone capable of much more than selling out to the highest bidder.
We need a revolution (peaceful please), a complete overhaul. Americans have become quite complacent and we got what we deserve. So now let’s take it back and make sure they know we expect more and will demand accountability or UNELECT them.
Yes…those innocent little Liberal Protesters would never harm anything or anyone. They would never destroy downtown Seattle, just because they wanted to protest.
The would never set buildings on fire just because someone likes eating chicken.
There was no reason the military to put excessive guards at military entrances and put curfews on military people going downtown in uniforms.
No reason at all, protesters never do anything bad, they are peaceful people.
Kumbaya all, peace out brothers and sisters. Anyone seen my bag of rocks, I’m going to DC and protest later on…
I am certain that it has happened; I have always said that. I have also personally seen a vet in a wheelchair beaten by armed thugs. Those thugs were the LAPD.
I don’t think those cops are fully representative of cops everywhere. Neither is what is noted above.
Bad on you Randy Scholfield!!
The title of the header is misleading.
Who read that and didn’t EXPECT to find a contemporary example of someone spitting on a vet? That’s where I thought you were going. Instead we get a recycled urban myth….AGAIN.
At the meetup, the editors said sometimes they toss a thread out just to see how much they can shake things up. I’d say this is such a thread. Thing is? We’ve done this one before. And MORE than once.If “fuzzy” anecdotal stories are the best there are for stuff that happened more than 30 years ago, I’m inclined to doubt it was much of a problem.
—–
As Jed and Writer Dog pointed out, it is impossible to control the actions of everyone in a group. As such, I have no doubt these spitting instances occurred. Does that mean they were condoned by everyone? Not necessarily.
As an illustration I offer the following. I know it to be true since I was there. At a Patriot Guard mission in Iola, a local teenager was standing with us and got out of hand. He started responding to the taunts of the Topeka cult and when we tried to restrain him, he started to get violent. He was quickly subdued and then local police stepped in and arrested him. He is not a member of Patriot Guard, yet nobody other than us knew that.
Another example…I spoke of February 6 in Topeka where I saw members of sunflower pushing and shoving others to get thru the capitol. I never said the entire group was doing that, but I did observe some people rudely pushing and shoving.
Do these instances mean that both groups are guilty of such? No. Do these instances deny that some people can get out of line? Of course not.
Saying something NEVER happened is pretty hard to prove–especially when many thousands of people were involved 30 years ago.
After the testimony of massacres and atrocities, after an unpopular war that dragged on for years after the American people opposed it, it wouldn’t be surprising that some sketchy people would act out their opposition by spitting.
This should be widely condemned by everyone. I condemn it.
On the other hand, it doesn’t mean like the CON SPAWN want it to mean that “liberals hate our troops.”
We’re the ones that are fighting to get better medical treatment, better pay, and protect their benefits and pensions.
It wasn’t the gung-ho CON SPAWN who were saying that our troops needed body armor and armored Humvees.
It was the liberals.
Soldiers are workers. The Democrats are the party of workers.
If you want medical care for soldiers, vote Democratic. If you want tax breaks for the rich, vote Republican.
Raptor–
I appreciate your attitude.
For instance, the CONS have a post-er who now goes by the name of RepubliKhan who has been nic switching and lying since just about the time this Blog started.
But I don’t say that ALL CONS are like him–filthy, lying b*st*rds.
No, he’s unique in his dishonesty.
Kelly–
Great post. My sentiments exactly.
Funny how the “spit on soldiers” meme never dies while the civil rights workers killed by right-wing racists in the South never seem to make the outraged rants on Rush O’Hannity.
Killing four little black girls in Church while they were at Sunday School just doesn’t get the reich-wing’s pulses fluttering like “spitting on soldiers.”
I was an anti-war activist during the Vietnam era, and I never saw anti-troop activities in years of activism.
I do recall being called the worst names by Nixon supporters. I do recall being arrested outside of Century II during a peaceful protest when Nixon’s criminal Vice-President Agnew addressed a group in Wichita.
I do recall the sheriff, Vern Miller hitting a marcher with his motorcycle during a march from WSU after the students were murdered at Kent State University
I do know that Ron Kovic, a paralyzed Vietnam War veteran who became an anti-war spokesperson was spat upon by war supporter as Ron sat in his wheelchair. Read his book “Born on the Fourth of July”.
During the Vietman War protests, our anger was at the policy and the mis-leaders who implemented it… Our slogan was “bring the troops home.” And we did not want to bring them home to abuse.
The soldiers are abused by the unwise misuse of American power.
Absolutely correct, DGS!!! I was actively protesting the war in the late Sixties and early Seventies. I saw a fair amount of violence and it was direct at the war protestors.
The Reich Wingers here will seek to twist it, but peaceful protest is a constitutional right. Beating the shit out of peaceful protestors is not.
Well said raptor. A similar incident: during a mammoth march in San Francisco an idiot decided to throw a rock at the police. WE grabbed him, dragged him out of the crowd, and turned him over. The police quietly handcuffed him and took him away. We then shook hands with the cops involved.
GSheridan – So you can’t imagine a Democrat today who would – like JFK – tell an international enemy to “turn around your ships or be blown out of the water”? My, what a skewed and egotistical view of Republicans and Democrats you have. If JFK had been as quick-triggered as you appear to prefer your presidents, this planet might not now be populated with humans. Don’t you remember how stridently JFK was pressured by the Joint Chiefs to bomb or invade Cuba? Don’t you remember how carefully JFK and RFK and Ted Sorensen weighed intelligence data, and used back-door diplomacy to find a peaceful end to the missile crisis? What we need in a president is someone who is smart enough, and analytical enough, and patriotic enough to find the correct decisions to domestic and international conflicts. Bush and the Chickenhawks weren’t/ain’t in that class.
Once we set aside the idiocy of proclaiming that only Republicans are patriots, and set aside the lunacy of thinking that bellicosity is always the answer to international crises, and acknowledge that there are plenty of smart, trustworthy patriots on both sides of the aisle among the declared 16 candidates, then perhaps we can get on with the task of honestly deciding who is best suited to lead this country in 2009.
Let me see if I can add some personal experience to thus whole spitting deal.
In 1971, After I got out of the hospital after being shot down (for the last time), I was assigned as a “liaison” helicopter pilot pilot at Crissy Field at the Presidio of San Francisco.
(In the swords into plowshares category…Crissy Field is now an excellent park/jogging area right on the bay almost under the GG Bridge…BTW).
My job was to pick up or deliver VIPs to/from San Francisco Intl Airport…Mostly from Travis AFB. So I have spent a ton of time hanging out at at SF Intl. waiting for my pax… where many of these alleged spitting incidents were supposed to have occurred.
To put it succinctly…I never once saw any spitting incidents in about a year and a half. None Zero Zip There were not even a lot of big organized protests. Generally small groups. They may have yelled at GI’s but that was about it. I got to know some of the girls (hey I was 20). If there was any political message they were pushing it was trying to get ex or soon to be ex GI’s to join the “movement”.
One little fact to remember…If anybody claims they flew into a US airport direct from Vietnam and “were spit on” they are flat out lying. The only “airport” where returning GI’s flew into was Travis AFB (or maybe McChord up in Seattle).
They were then bussed down to Oakland Army Base for outprocessing or transfer to other assignments. Marines and Navy went to Treasure Island. Once they were out, they then headed for SFO…but never (maybe one in 50,000…on some kind of weird transfer or leave maybe) did anybody fly into SF directly from Nam.
And whoever the pinhead was who specualted above about if there had been spitting…the GI’s would have “kicked some ass” or something similar. What a dipshit comment. There may have been the odd redneck (who spent their tour in Nam as a supply clerk or some other REMF gig) who would have done something like that…but for the most of us, we just wanted to forget the whole BS war and get home.
Cal – were you at “Berserkly” in the 70s? I was ‘down the road’ a bit – UCLA.
LOL if it’s something she doesn’t like, a liberal did it!
Bush is spitting on the troops now!!!
http://www.vawatchdog.org/07/nf07/nfMAR07/nf031207-1.htm
I read the article kscitydude and didn’t see anything there worth repeating. It’s an issue of soldiers being ready for duty or not.
A Physician can make mistakes for sure and it is the soldier’s right to request a Medical Board if he or she feels he was not treated fairly.
I’m surprised that the soldiers do not know that.
I had a spine injury when I served and continued to take cautionary steps not to re-injure my back. I eventually got a waiver for lifting no more than 40 pounds and when I did my physical fitness test, I was allowed to walk and not run. It worked out for me.
These soldiers can do the same steps I did and try to work with the system and not against it.
Complaining about it won’t get anything done.
I clearly remember the assurances the Bush team gave us right before the war that the vets would be so well cared for… no mistakes of the past by disregarding the troops needs after their service ….
HA! Another one bites the dust!
Yeah, but you were never in ‘Nam though, RepubliKhan.
How’d you manage to evade that one?
Too young CapnAmerica?
Funny, you were old enough to take out a mortgage in the early 70’s but too “young” to go to ‘Nam?
Try to keep track of the lies, Khan.
I’m embarrassed for you . . .
So what’s the big deal about someone getting spit on anyway? Our troops dropped napom on children, torched people with flamethrowers, leveled villages, killed countless innocent Vietnamese civilans, and Vietnamese children are still getting blown up today with the bombs we left behind..So what if someone got spit on? Cry me a river.
So what’s the big deal about someone getting spit on anyway? Our troops dropped napom on children, torched people with flamethrowers, leveled villages, killed countless innocent Vietnamese civilans, and Vietnamese children are still getting blown up today with the bombs we left behind..So what if someone got spit on? Cry me a river.
I know I am too late for this discussion, and normally I don’t post after the fact, but this enraged me. SO WHAT?!? They were teenage boys that were sent over to vietnam. It was a new kind of war, not the war of their grandfathers’ like WWII, but guerilla warfare that they had no experience in, and the military didn’t know how to fight either. They were in a strange land, with children and women blowing them up!! They never knew who the enemy was.
They only ones I ever wanted to spit on were too far away – Westmoreland, Mcnamara, LBJ, all the rest of that cabal of evil.
Today the ones I would spit on are Cheney, Rumsfield, Bush, and the new cabal of evil.
I served 2 terms in RVN. One year with the 25th at CuChi(Ku Chee) and another with the 52nd signal battalion in Can Tho! (Can Toe) The most indignation I received was at Mid-Continent in 1969 when I was approached by a gray-hair crusty old white woman who wanted me to carry her bags inside! I gave her the best ghetto glare I could give, turned and walked away. I could here her husband telling that B_tch I was a military man. So much for getting spit upon! That’s nothing compared to what I experienced!!!!
“…I was a red-hot leftist (marxist) revolutionary back then, and I did spit on a couple of returning vets. From the safety of a crowd, behind a barricade and a police line.I was an America-hating asshole and a coward. I’ve learned better, and I’ve learned to feel regret for my shameful actions then. Can’t say the same for the current crowd of shameless, cowardly, America-hating leftist jerks, though. (Hat tip: Glenn Reynolds).-Bill QuickDaily Pundithttp://dailypundit.com/?p=24230Cached: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:K4jZHS7l1yMJ:dailypundit.com/%3Fp%3D24230+Bill+Quick+I+was+an+America-hating+asshole+and+a+coward&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us**********Rick Atkinson, Pulitzer Prize winner and former assistant managing editor at The Washington Post, writes in his book, “The Long Gray Line: The American Journey of West Point’s Class of 1966,” of Captain Tom Carhart’s return from Vietnam, pp. 324-5:”Still in uniform, he was strolling through the O’Hare terminal in search of a telephone when a group of hippie girls darted up and spat on him. The shock and pain could have been no more intense if they had slashed him with knives. Reeling with surprise and uncertain what to do, he did nothing. His assailants scampered off through the airport crush as Tom wiped the saliva from his face, now aflame with humiliation. That night he got into an argument about the war with his friends’ daughter, who was home from college. This is great, he told himself sardonically. I’m back less than twenty-four hours, I get spat on, then I get hassled by my countrymen over a cause for which I got myself shot twice. Welcome home, Johnny.”**********”Yes, I am a Vietnam veteran who was spat upon — literally and figuratively. By hippies? I don’t know. In the airport? Yes. San Francisco International Airport on October 11, 1971 at 3:15 p.m., and yes, I was still in uniform. To be exact, it was the same uniform that I wore during the last Fire Support Mission I was involved in, just 36 hours before landing in San Francisco Airport. No, I didn’t have mud, dirt, or gunpowder on my uniform. A very kind Vietnamese woman at the Transit Company washed and ironed it for me so that I could come home to the country I love looking nice. This was one hell of a lot more than I received upon arrival.If I were the only one to be spat upon, the score would be : not spat upon, 1,999,999, spat upon, 1. Of course, I know this score to be wrong. Literally because I saw others spat upon, and figuratively because to spit on one Vietnam veteran is to spit on them all.The person who spat on me was wearing a shirt that said ‘Welcome Home Baby-Killer.’ …About that image of a burly Green Beret walking through the airport and being spat upon by a war protester — let’s also remember that most war protestors or hippies or whatever name you want to attach to them were also becoming very aware of their rights as U.S. citizens, and they knew that if this burly Green Beret did nothing they (protesters) had won, and if the burly Green Beret retaliated, they (protesters) still won. How could they lose?”Robert E. McClelland; Massillon, Ohio, pp. 41-43Bob Greene, “Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam”, 1989