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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted March 24, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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54 Comments
KAKE 10 TV News reported last night another 100 million dollars is needed for improvements around the proposed downtown ice hockey type arena, presumably for access streets, storm and sanitary sewers, maybe some parking.
Looks like this will take the taxpayers cost up over $300 million. Now even my estimate of $250,000,000.17 (1/4 billion dollars) was way too conservative. I received a lot of flak about that amount from pro-arena cheerleaders WHO SAID THE COST WOULD NEVER EXCEED $187,000,000 as I recall. By the way, the unaffiliated pro-arena supporters seem to have all left town.
Wonder what additional major taxpayer funded costs are yet to be announced?
All this gigantic expense could be avoided by continuing to use and remodelling that venerable old gentleman, the historic KANSAS COLISEUM, with 10,000 seats and the surrounding 5,000 car free parking lot. And also the attractive RV parking lot surrounding the periphery of the property.
However, downtown Wichita should be updated on the order of River Walk, if it ever gets off deadcenter, to turn downtown into a pedestrian destination.
Unfortunately with our current “Strong Dictator City Manager, weak council” form of local government — the taxpaying public will have little to say about how our downtown will be updated. The paid bureacratic staff knows what is good for us. Perhaps the citizens will get to review more seating as to size and color.
ALL GOOD REASONS TO ATTEND THE “RE-VOTE THE DOWNTOWN ARENA RALLY” TOMORROW, SUNDAY AFTERNOON AT 3 PM AT SEDGWICK COUNTY PARK, 13th STREET ENTRANCE. JWINK
KAKE 10 TV News reported last night another 100 million dollars is needed for improvements around the proposed downtown ice hockey type arena, presumably for access streets, storm and sanitary sewers, maybe some parking.
Looks like this will take the taxpayers cost up over $300 million. Now even my estimate of $250,000,000.17 (1/4 billion dollars) was way too conservative. I received a lot of flak about that amount from pro-arena cheerleaders WHO SAID THE COST WOULD NEVER EXCEED $187,000,000 as I recall. By the way, the unaffiliated pro-arena supporters seem to have all left town.
Wonder what additional major taxpayer funded costs are yet to be announced?
All this gigantic expense could be avoided by continuing to use and remodelling that venerable old gentleman, the historic KANSAS COLISEUM, with 10,000 seats and the surrounding 5,000 car free parking lot. And also the attractive RV parking lot surrounding the periphery of the property.
However, downtown Wichita should be updated on the order of River Walk, if it ever gets off deadcenter, to turn downtown into a pedestrian destination.
Unfortunately with our current “Strong Dictator City Manager, weak council” form of local government — the taxpaying public will have little to say about how our downtown will be updated. The paid bureacratic staff knows what is good for us. Perhaps the citizens will get to review more seating as to size and color.
ALL GOOD REASONS TO ATTEND THE “RE-VOTE THE DOWNTOWN ARENA RALLY” TOMORROW, SUNDAY AFTERNOON AT 3 PM AT SEDGWICK COUNTY PARK, 13th STREET ENTRANCE. JWINK
Sorry, WE Bloggers, for the double posting.
JWink – it’s obvious that the Arena was misrepresented to the voters, and many are having second thoughts.
I hope your rally has a great turnout. Have you notified the TV stations? Have you started letter-writing campaigns?
I live quite a ways from you – but I’ll try to make it. Just for moral support.
Just interjecting an observation here…it’s SO NICE to be able to read through the discussions here now – and see “almost” every post expressing opinions about the topic instead of just descending into a mud-slinging war.
I readily admit I fell into that trap a number of times myself, but I FAR prefer this higher-integrity board – by a long shot.
There are fewer posts now – but the posts that are missing are the ones that used curse words, attacked others, and, basically, were standing in the way of attracting new posters to the forum.
This has become a MUCH better board.
Kudos to the WE editors for handling the matter as they did.
And, I DO hope some of the folks who left will return, but I hope, if they do, that we can all remember to address the topics, and not attack those who post them.
Just a thought this fine Saturday morning.
Have a great weekend all!
People! Don’t get fooled by the misinformed and construed information the anti-arena and anti-progressive group is putting out there. All the figures they put out there are over inflated, under-inflated or unrelated to anything of the Downtown Arena.
I suggest people get the real facts straight from the government sources of Sedgwick County and the Citizen Committies who overlook all the decisions and the City of Wichita. Both have websites. Read and learn the real facts. The anti-arena group has their agenda of anti-progress, so naturally they will output false information.
Case in point: Mr. JWink is completely off. The $100 million dollar is not from or for the Downtown Arena. It is not coming from the sales tax or anything else. It is not anything being forced upon people. It hasn’t even been approved. And again! I stress! The $100 million dollar price tag has nothing to do with the price tag of arena whatsoever.
What is this $100 million dollars he’s talking about? It’s what the Metropolitan Planning Commission calls the Arena Neighborhood Plan. What is the Arena Neighborhood Plan? It is a very large area of downtown that includes everything from Main to the railroad tracks from Douglas to Kellogg. A huge section of downtown Wichita that largely remains underutilize and is in desperate need of revitalization.
http://wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/85ED031C-505F-4779-8F14-415F988CEFD8/0/03a_NeighborhoodPlan_draft04_012907.pdf
For the past several years, the city of Wichita has been asking the public to participate in what they would like to see in this area. Everybody was welcome to attend any of the events for ideas. They were held in the evening hours and were largely promoted through the media. The city of Wichita has a direct web page about the Arena Neighborhood Redevelopment Plan. http://wichita.gov/CityOffices/Planning/AP/Comprehensive/ArenaPlan.htm
The $100 million dollars is for improving the huge vast area of downtown, not for the arena sake, but for the neighborhood. Making all streets two ways, wider streets, green space, and etc. If anybody attended any of the public discussions on this project, you could have imputed your idea of what you would like this area to be. Such as more residential, or more shops, how would you like to park, street lighting, theme for the area, were you would like green space and etc. They had many design options and ask for input on each one. It was great way for citizens of Wichita to push the direction of this underserved area of our great city.
But the anti-progessives do not want anything improved or developed. They would rather see the area crumbled, blighted, and deteriated. I have no idea why. Maybe they think it’s a better way. Maybe they are slum lords. I have no idea what their intentions are and why they oppose publicly discussed progress.
Though Joe W. and I rarely agree on anything, I fully support his reasoning behind support of the arena.
I guess the anti-arena people just don’t get it. This arena will be built and the community will benefit in the long run. The voters spoke at the polls in 2004, it’s going to happen.
I hope the anti-progressives have a good time, standing in the rain, at their “rally”. It will be an exercise in futility.
G, the boycott has shown me some things about my fellow bloggers. The first was some that are here can be as I hope they would be. Thoughtful, civil and staying to the point. Since no man is a island and the Democrats as the 2006 election shows are just as capable of being in power as the Republicans.It does no good to descend into partisan bickering, name calling and personal attacks. Some may think I have just try to stay above the fray, but I just realized it was not worth angering the other side and reacting with name calling.
Second has been that though the cause maybe a natural tribal thought process or just a deep seated partisanship. It has been quieter, but I can not say it is totally the cause of the boycotters that the situation before was so hateful. I often see both sides like the enemy soldiers meeting on a battle field, personally the single soldier is not wanting to be killed. They have no desire to be hurt or killed and now faces someone that on their side does not want to be hurt or killed. But the assumption has to be that the other side is wanting to hurt or kill you. To wait and see if the person on the other side is going to fire, could mean you are a target. So you fire first, hoping to take out the other person because you must assume they will fire on you. There are those on both sides that only want to put down the enemy first, again because of the partisanship they see only an enemy. Their hatred is long held and long ago learned having been attacked in such a way. This would explain the likes of Capt America, Eron101, Kansas farm girl, Republikhan, JR and Fleetwood. each I have come to learn are not mindless and are thoughtful people once you can get to know better and not just see them just as the enemy. Another example that can illustrate the point G, would be to discount your opinion solely because you are a woman! Though some of your opinions maybe painted by your gender, it would be a real mistake to discount your opinion on that basis. In a intellectual debate with anyone of those named you better bring a lunch. LoL as I found with you it might even be a good idea to plan for a diner too!
I miss all the boycotters, they may present a view I do not see but still they are valued. And as I pointed out before, as to being the cause of name calling and personal assaults, The number as far as attacks on me just does not show that the left is responsible alone. Perhaps that is really how wars end, not in defeat but in understanding that the issues are no long important enough to hurt and kill over.
Hank,
Check your email.
Got it Mike.
Good to hear from you!
I’m stealing bandwidth from my neighbor with Momma’s laptop right now.
I’ll answer ya later.
Hank
GS – I will echo your comments on name-calling etc. Then I am greeted by Joe Williams labeling me and others as “anti-progessives do not want anything improved or developed. They would rather see the area crumbled, blighted, and deteriated. I have no idea why. Maybe they think it’s a better way. Maybe they are slum lords.”
Joe – I am NOT anti-progressive. I DO want to see development. I am NOT a slum lord. I do NOT want to see the area crumbled, blighted and deteriorated.
Now I could turn around and call you just about ALL of those same things. The reason? I happen to believe that the Arena, as being developed, will lead to those things. But, instead of stooping to your level and engaging in name-calling I will simply disagree with you.
I think the Arena will suck a lot of resources away from other things in Wichita and Sedgwick County that need to be supported. These things include (but not limited to) the Zoo, Century II, Exploration Place, our public parks, our river front, neighborhood revitalization, etc. My fear is that the subsidies required for the Arena will leave nothing for anything else.
Unfortunately, Joe, you and others prefer to call us names rather than engage in discussion about the project. In doing so you dodge answering our questions. For example: what happened to the $23,611,000 operating/maintainence reserve we were promised? Why is Mayoral candidate Brewer talking about City funding of a parking garage for the Arena when we were told that would be a part of the $184 million project? What even happened to naming? Who will be the anchor tenant?
Joe, having lived in a number of cities and visited many more I have seen things that work and things that do not work. Opposing something I think will not work does NOT make me “anti-progressive” nor “pro-blight” as you claim. However, I could argue that supporting something that will not work makes YOU those things.
I sincerely hope this thing works – even though my experience elsewhere tells me it won’t. As apophis says – it is going to be built. And I will expect you and the rest of its supporters to make it work.
HANK!!!!!!
Check my comments to you on Limbaugh!
Looks like the Kansas Republicans want to tell the Attorney General who to prosecute, just like the Repubs. in Washington want to control who the U.S. Attorneys who to prosecute”, and they damn well better be Democrat defendants!
Oops, and extr who to!
Weather permitting, my son and I will attend the arena revote rally tomorrow. Then we will do some fishing.
It is good to see Ben again. Sometimes I have science questions for the open. And with him not about, who can I ask?
Hey GSheridan
What blog are you reading? I am catching all sorts of fluffy useless flak from fluffy useless posters like fleetwood, SOB, RepublicanKhanJM. And the most reviled of all posters econ101 formerly known as Paul Rosell has taken this opportunity to slink back in. AFTER he bailed on the right after the last election. You’ll want to take them to task won’t you? In the spirit of a better blog?
Perhaps they should start prosecuting the case where the two Democratic operatives stole Maryland’s Lt. Governor Steele’s social security number to obtain his credit report.
These operatives worked for the committee chaired by Senator Schumer, now on the Judiciary Committee.
Perhaps J R we consider your posts as useless. All you do is spew hate and discourse.
should have read “hateful discourse.”
Someone really took Koch to task in today’s editorial!
Repug………………..Hey, that’s what your posts are as well…………..hate and discourse. That is the repug way of life!
Actually SS numbers aren’t that hard to come by in many cases. Alot of government web site’s include SS numbers in their data you can get Colin Powell, Jeb Bush, Porter Goss’s SS number of the Dade County clerks office I believe kind of scary actually.
Perhaps Dingus. I don’t know the law on the use of ss numbers, but I’m pretty sure getting the credit report of someone in an opposition political party isn’t an authorized or legal use of it.
JR – I like seeing Ben back, too. He makes a good scientific resource here on the board. Perhaps things haven’t lightened up so much for you as they have for me. I can see you are in a different spot. But I came here, and instead of a welcome, I had folks telling me they were going to run me off before the week was out. Those particular folks are gone now – so for me – it’s much gentler.
Writerdog made some really good observations and I have to agree with him.
I actually DO want the other posters to come back, but if they choose to stay away – I wish them well. A lot of misunderstandings occurred before they left.
Also like writerdog – I am of the mind that in person I would like these folks. And actually, my major nemesis, farmie, would probably be the kind of person I would like in real life, but we got off to a rough start – and those who claimed to be her friends – egged her on mercilessly. She and I both have ‘queen bee’ problems, so we locked horns. In fact, I would probably like her more than the ones prodding her on – since they live in her shadow, and she has the guts to stand alone. That means something to me. If you’re reading this, farmie, I mean that.
It’s tough when some posters all gather behind a stronger one – and call out things like, “…boy, you’re kicking ass today….you sure told them……man, they made a mistake crossing you….” etc. Psychologically (putting on my armchair therapist hat,) it creates an expectation of the stronger person – and in my experience, folks tend to live either up or down to the expectations you have for them.
I’m certainly NOT blameless. I KNOW it irritates liberals when I refer to their lack of support of our war – as being a treasonous act.
Anyway, if they DO come back, I hope the semblance of peace can last awhile longer.
Warmer weather is upon us and I suppose ALL blogs will slow down now to some extent.
Here’s to hoping YOU get a chance to experience the benign nature of the board that I have in the last week, or so.
Ben! Who promised you $23 million in reserve fund? When did they ever directly promised you anything?
The vote is 1 cent sales tax for 30 months to build the arena.
And! If you look at the cost break down, you have $14.6 million in Operation and Reserve. $7.8 million for the Pavilions (if they still choose to go that route) and $4.3 million in contingency. Add that up and you have $26.7 million for reserves. Higher than what you thought you were promised.
Plus they expect to collect between $12 to $18 million more than budgeted.
It’s all going to be ok. The Kansas Coliseum, will go. The county expected to keep it and use it for some events, but since Oil Man Hartman will build one, there is no need to keep the Colisuem.
And Ben! I have every right to call people who are anti-arena, anti-progessives because their intentions and motivations are not clear. We know Dee Stuart has her agenda, which is to make Wichita have nothing.
The rest! I don’t know. That is why I ask, MAYBE they are slum lords or whatever.
JWink for example, although I cannot confirm this, but somebody on this blog said he lives in the Delano district. He might be against the Downtown arena, because he thinks it will bring more traffic in his area. The old Wal-Mart excuse. Everybody has their reasons, and most are because of personal issues and affect they have with a project.
The same people who opposed the City for expanding Rock Road from 29th to 21st. Saying it cuts into their lawn (even though it didn’t) and the construction noise and problems. Same people who oppose the rails to trails project because they say it brings crime and cuts into their land and privacy.
If you have a personal problem with the arena, then you are rightfully labeled anti-progress.
Joe
I’m all for progress.
The arena aint progress. It is a pig in a poke doomed to failure.
Joe! And you are rightfully labeled pro-boondoggle.
As for my numbers. I am looking at a flyer dated Sept 1 2004.
Parking: $19,400,000Operation/Maitainence Reserve: $23,611,000Pavilions: $9,128,000
Sum of these: $52,139,000
I personally asked Ron Holt and Ed Wolverton and they assured me I could rely upon their representations as cited above.
Now we are being told:Parking/Ops/Maintainence (combined): $14,610,420Pavilions: $7,818,694
Sum: 22,429,114
What has happened is that the core construction cost/land acquisition for the Arena itself has jumped by 36%. So, the total budget has gone up by $17 million while provisions for parking, pavilians and reserve have been cut by $30 million.
By the way, of Hartman builds his hockey place who will be anchor at the Arena? I was told it would be the Thunder.
As I said, I hope you are correct. And I will hold you and the other champions of the arena to it.
Joe Williams, whatever you do, please do not call yourself a libertarian. You give the rest of us a bad name. There is no way you can reconcile your support of the arena with the principles of limited government and maximum free enterprise.
The arena, now WAY over approved budget, is NOT the arena the voters chose.
As such, it behooves the concerned citizens to appeal the decision and get a re vote.
It doesn’t matter WHAT the costs are associated with – it’s WAY out of line.
Going forward with the arena now – isn’t progress – it’s actually ANTI-progress as it will garner MUCH more of the taxpayer dollar that previously thought, thereby removing that money from other expenditures.
Putting all one’s eggs in a single basket isn’t progress – it’s foolhardy.
I want to raise another issue which relates to the relationship of the State and business: Casinos. As I understand it the current law requires that any casino be owned by the Kansas Lottery. So, we end up arguing over where the State will build them. Might it not make a lot more sense to allow for private ownership?
I don’t know if a casino in Sedgwick County is economically feasible. Just like I don’t know if a WalMart in east Kellogg is feasible. That is determined by market studies etc and should then be passed by private investors. It would seem to me that the government has a land-use interest in these questions but not a business interest.
So, back to casinos, should we allow private developers to build them, subject to local land-use restrictions?
Omaha, Nebraska built the Qwest Center, opened in 2003, final bill $297 Million.
18,000 seats. They made the mistake constructing it with only 15,000 seats initially. $5 Million more fixed that. Some events need certain amount of permanent seats.
The community agreed to a $216 Million bond.
Why should ours cost $184 Million? Costs have increased since 2003, to contruct things.
Why listen to nonsense. “Historic Coliseum” “Over budget” “Tax won’t end”
Every stadium and arena gets the bulldozer eventually, that’s the way it is.
To compete for events that pass this city and state we need to create event facilities.
Subsidy at the airport for flights is part of it. Events coming from the east coast could fly in Wichita cheaper.
Wichita, unlike other similar sized cities, lacks competitive event facilities.
We are in the events regional market with The Ford Center, in Oklahoma City. With the still to open Sprint Center in Kansas City. The Qwest Center in Omaha.
Tax will end, says the law and legislators. Every legislator in Kansas would have to be in on that fraud.
The tax will end.
People are complaining about roads downtown and parking costs, there is time to fix those issues.
Arena designers understand the need for parking and access to the facility. We will have enough!
What future costs exists who knows, not everything in the future can be paid for right now.
Let the tax end, then see where the County has available funds.
The downtown arena idea still has to form, allowing corporates to step in, to name the facility. To partner in some way. To make sure the facility is worthwhile in our community.
There is time for those partnerships with the County to form.
People have a right to protest and complain. But do it with facts.
Nothing factual is being said about having a re-vote. No fraud was committed in the original vote.The County has every right to build the facility they need for events.
“Costs have increased since 2003, to contruct things.” By 36%?
Omaha – I think they have a University involved. And Qwest.
“Tax will end” I agree, have never said otherwise. Question then becomes – where will they get the funds to cover the losses? I have suggested a mechanism to fund this; Ed Wolverton rejected it.
“There is time for those partnerships with the County to form.” THE TIME IS NOW! Show us the corporate support.
“do it with facts.” Do you deny the numbers I used above? I will happily email you the pdf’s I obtained from Sedgwick County.
I look forward to watching UCLA-KU tonight at the HP Arena. I wonder, will the Sedgwick County Arena be considered suitable to host such an event? I think we have already learned that it will not be suitable for Big 12; Ed Wolverton has acknowledged that to me.
This is a business issue.
Any community when it gathers taxes and spends them – operates as a business.
If the business has the approval of the citizens to spend X amount of dollars on an arena – then the business MUST adhere to the original voted arena – just as any contractor would have to abide by the original CONTRACT!
Any changes, above and beyond a certain minimal amount, are cause for a “Change order” to be approved in addition by the same folks that approved the original contract (vote.)
There is absolutely NO reason for the cost to have increased by 36%. NONE! Land and materials have NOT increased by that amount since the vote. Materials AND Land should have been LOCKED IN immediately!
There were architectural drawings that they based their estimates upon. That means they used material lists, something Auto CAD and other CAD programs generate. Those material lists should have been ordered on guarantee from local suppliers right away.
There is no fathomable reason they were not. And at any rate – materials have not increased that much.
If the land owners decided to fleece the City after the vote – too bad. The City needs to walk away.
It is a poor business decision to go ahead with a project that has increased 36% for no viable reason.
The land cost was already agreed-upon.
Naming rights for the Sprint Center: $2 million a year for 25 years. $2 Million a year to Sedgwick County would help the downtown arena, but not so much.
Corporate advertising, SMG marketing for events would bring in more funds. Those corporates are still considering it.
This a built-it-we’ll-believe city and until construction starts, announced corporate involvement probably won’t happen. Who controls corporates, they do, on their own time.
I argued to a few corporates locally, the necessity for 18,000 seats. I told the govs. People on staff within the gov buildings.
We shall see the facility gets those increased seats. I don’t know when that announcement will be made.
Some complain the County phrased our vote incorrectly. Tying a cost of the facility with the question. They had no idea how much money the tax will generate.
They didn’t look elsewhere like at the Qwest Center to see their construction costs. They didn’t see the Qwest Center increase its seats, as a necessity. From 15,000 to 18,000. All that happened prior to 2003.
This is event business and to play in the game regionally, ours has to cost over $200 Million.
Omaha had the original $216 Million bond. Private investment increased it to $297 Million.
That facility is working out for them.
Our downtown arena will have “university ” use for college basketball, if its 18,000 seats, WSU, KSU and KU could sometimes play games there.
If it can attract NCAA first and second round March Madness basketball games, like the Ford Center will get in 2010.
Involve the Big 12 to have their Championship tournament, for men and women in Wichita. Kevin Weiberg, Commissioner of the Big 12 had a job at WSU in the 80’s.
To attract events, that’s the goal of our downtown arena. Cost of constructing the event center has to flow. It could be close to $300 Million finally, but the 30 month tax is over.
The tax has a set value, that’s it.
The facility for our long term use has to cost more than the tax money generated. Private investment has to happen.
Announcement of future events, helps private investment happen quicker. When people know what events are possible, they could understand marketing value, to partner with the County.
The parking issue is real but achievable, that has nothing to do with “fraud”. Increased costs of purchasing buildings has to be allowed.
“We shall see the facility gets those increased seats.” We shall see.
“Our downtown arena will have “university ” use for college basketball, if its 18,000 seats, WSU, KSU and KU could sometimes play games there.” “sometimes” is not an anchor. WSU has KOCH and has stated that they will stay there.
“I argued to a few corporates locally” Their reply?
” I told the govs. People on staff within the gov buildings” Their reply?
“Involve the Big 12 to have their Championship tournament, for men and women in Wichita. Kevin Weiberg, Commissioner of the Big 12 had a job at WSU in the 80’s.” Ed Wolverton has already admitted that won’t happen.
“If it can attract NCAA ” That’s a mighty big IF.
Write Wolverton again and ask “Why are we getting a 15,000 seat arena and its regionally not as useful like the Qwest Center, Sprint Center or Ford Center with 18,000 seats?”
His robot answers is why I’m not questioning him. He’s not understanding the marketing potential of 18,000 seats.
With that number of seats in our arena, how the community still has to prosper for increased tourism.
Hotels and services. Traffic and parking. Cheaper flights at the airport. Museums interesting enough to visit more than once.
Century II holding whatever event it can handle and it’s called entertainment.
When we improve in other ways, the Big 12 or NCAA could imagine their tournament games here.
We can overcome the “ifs” with our community improvement. It will be natural to award Wichita events in future years. The Big 12 would like to move their basketball tournament around, like they do with football championship game.
No corporate has denied the reason for increased seats. Some went to OKC and saw the Ford Center, how well that Big 12 tournament turned out. How quickly corporates get involved with Sedgwick County, I don’t know.
It doesn’t have to be an obvious announcement either. We wake up one morning and the County says the arena will have 18,000 seats.
Someone helped or promised to help the project in the future.
We are still very early in the arena process but its been a long time already too.
The “anchor” of our arena is usefulness with a variety of events. Get WSU, KSU and KU to create four team tournaments with three other teams.
Occasionally they will do that.
Some play KU, maybe they don’t want the Kansas City market. It’s too homey for them up there. A real road game for both teams could happen in Wichita. Some teams KU plays against, we should offer that choice with our arena.
It’s reasonable to want KU playing off campus basketball games and still be in the state borders.
If we fail this arena size and marketing value task, Wyandotte County or Olathe could build their own arena. They have KU off campus basketball games so close and still in the Kansas City market. That idea might fly real fast up there.
When Wolverton and others spout off that 15,000 seat number, that allows folks up there to scheme.
Those area’s have agreeable voters to civic improvements.
Here we have “clueless” officials and obstructionist voters.
Lots of “IF’s” there Mrage.
“We wake up one morning and the County says the arena will have 18,000 seats.” Yea, and I could wake up some morning and find that Bill gates has given me a billion dollars.
“His robot answers is why I’m not questioning him.” And who ARE you questioning; what are they replying?
“Someone helped or promised to help the project in the future” WHO?
“It’s reasonable to want KU playing off campus basketball games and still be in the state borders.” Why?
“When Wolverton and others spout off that 15,000 seat number, that allows folks up there to scheme.” Those are the guys running the show.
” No corporate has denied the reason for increased seats” None have endorsed it either.
Ben just got back in town and saw the notice about the protest. Glad you are doing this. There is a lot about this whole arena deal that stinks to high heaven. If construction hasn’t even started and we have a 36% increase just wait for all the change orders to start coming in after construction starts. We will be very lucky to keep these around a 25% increase. Paul Gray could answer questions about this.
As GSheridan says a contract should be just that, a binding contract. The supporters of the arena didn’t give the city a blank check nor did they give one to the county.
In the upcoming mayor race one thing to keep in mind – much as I would like to see Mayans replaced – to replace him with Brewer would be a collossal mistake. He(Brewer) is very attached to the big money men in town that have their fingers in the pie wanting their own little piece. He also didn’t do a very good job in his own district when it came to cleaning up the neighborhood.
Glad to be back. The civility on the blog is a welcome change. I feel that I can actually read throught the discussions I have missed and learn something.
I am for progress but it needs to be sensible progress, if the case was that the venues that were already in use were sold out and there seem to be a real need for a larger venue I could see the need. But there just seems to be a flawed logic to the “if you build it they will come!”. I remember reading a report that two major events were happening at the same time and the total numbers of those attending would not have filled either places that the events were held.
In a time when the local attractions have trouble getting enough patrons to paid the costs of even opening the venue little alone to warrant keeping the attractions here. It just shows that the need is not to have a larger venue but to have an attraction that would draw the patrons. There has been hockey, arena football and it seems even Baseball. None seem to draw enough fans to keep them afloat in Wichita, imagine the embarrassment of building a larger venue to draw a big name act only to have only a quarter of the venue filled.
When I drive around Wichita some thing that strikes me is two numbers, one is the number of abandon buildings. The other is the number of new buildings being build, the business that are moving in are not so large that they could not have fit in the existing buildings. One of the few letters to the editor that has been printed in my town of Augusta ( which reminds me the editor keep asking why I have not sent him more).Was about how I went uptown about once a year and notice that businesses that had been there the previous year. Had closed and new businesses had open, the problem is that they would be the same type of business that could not make a go of it the previous year. If a cake decorating shop could not make it over a year what would make someone think their cake decorating shop would?
The same flawed logic seem to be the case with the arena, it is not about progress to me but rather if the Coliseum, Century 2 and Koch arena have trouble filling their seats. What make one think that having more seats would help?
“For those increasingly rare Americans who still operate under the philosophy of rational objectivism, please consider this excerpt from an Israeli historian — Benny Morrison in his “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem” — about massacres: “… In their secretive dealings, Zionist politicians bickered over the massacring of Palestinians or their overt ethnic cleansing particularly because of how such latent actions could damage Israel’s image in the West, not because of the immorality of the acts themselves.”
ksgrm – I am not the one behind the event tomorrow, however I plan to go after another comittment. It will be interesting to see how many people show up. I’d like to see a large turnout and news coverage.
This city has never tried “the big time” that’s why the attitudes exist.
DO WE NEED IT. IT COSTS TOO MUCH.
How is anyone being screwed once the tax ends?
KU would never play here, why would anyone else.
For college basketball, this our chance for moderately “big time” games.
We will never get a Sweet 16 or Final Four. Not in men’s basketball.
Who knows about NCAA women games. Basketball and Volleyball. Gymnastics. Those are possible events.
But first and second round men’s March Madness games are possible.The Big 12 mens and women’s basketball tournament is possible as that event moves around.
People should forget the $184 Million fake number because it was a mistake by the County. A bad phrase.
County will spend whatever amount the tax raises. That is a free check. To spend it all on the arena.
The final costs for our arena, will need private investment help so its beneficial long term for this community.
We are creating a free standing arena that represents the whole state. Ponder that.
One chance in this state, to get the arena right, at this time.
If we fail, again, Wyandotte County or Olathe will steal the idea and we would be stuck with a less useful arena. Smaller than other regional arena’s where events will go.
No better off than having the Coliseum as it exists today. The smallest and weakest event center in this regional market.
The Governor in future years will help try to capture a Big 12 basketball tournament, or NCAA March Madness games to play games in Wichita.
Help attract teams from other states, for any kind of four team tournaments, WSU, KSU or KU want to set up.
If KU can make the same amount of money playing in the Sprint Center or in Wichita, why should they care where the off campus game is played.
We offer the choice to teams KU is playing against. Play KU in KC at the Sprint Center or here in Wichita.
People in Wichita think this shouldn’t happen here? The largest city in this state willingly won’t try?
Some of you have a complex about this city and its because of failed leadership in past years.
The bad facilities, Cessna Stadium , no college football, its not worth updating if ever WSU football comes back. Its only for high school football games, the track is great. If WSU wants to start Field Hockey or Soccer. Concerts.
Lawrence-Dumont needs updating no matter what baseball in the future could be played there. It can have concerts. Fans need chair back seats for everybody as the first improvement.
The Coliseum, too old and small, not competitive for our future use, is getting replaced.
Why people don’t fill those facilities, because their old and don’t serve the purpose anymore.
Seating, concessions, parking and costs of the event are important to people showing up.
Our older facilities fail in those considerations. Apathy will happen.
College events are better than “minor league” anything. Minor league hockey. Minor league baseball. WSU baseball fans have more fun at the Eck.
We should have a great classic stadium for baseball by the river. Good views as the sun goes down behind fans on nice evenings. Again, concerts could be held there. Fix Lawrence-Dumont is important for our psyche.
Replace the Coliseum, downtown this time, and make it large enough for regional events.
Improve our community in other ways to be an entertaining or comfortable and affordable town to visit.
I don’t care what people don’t do and they call it badge of community honor.
I WON’T GO is a popular phrase people say.
“The Big 12 mens and women’s basketball tournament is possible as that event moves around.” They have already said NO.
“College events are better than “minor league” anything.” Agreed. And already ruled out for the Arena.
“People should forget the $184 Million fake number because it was a mistake by the County. A bad phrase.” It is what was voted on. Are you saying Arena proponents LIED to us?
“The Governor in future years will help try to capture a Big 12 basketball tournament, or NCAA March Madness games to play games in Wichita.” Has she told you that? Big 12 has already ruled it out.
“We are creating a free standing arena that represents the whole state. Ponder that.” NO. It represents Sedgwick County. Period.
“KU would never play here, why would anyone else.” Good question. Why would they?
“But first and second round men’s March Madness games are possible.” Not likely.
“The final costs for our arena, will need private investment help so its beneficial long term for this community.” How is that coming along?
” If KU can make the same amount of money playing in the Sprint Center or in Wichita, why should they care where the off campus game is played.” They will play in KC and make more money.
” How is anyone being screwed once the tax ends?” How are they going to cover operating losses? I have a mechanism to do so; Ed Wolverton rejected ot out-of-hand.
Joe Williams: So you think I’m against the now, $300,000,000.74 downtown ice hockey, white elephant arena because I happen to own property within a few blocks of the site and the arena might inconvenience me.
Sorry, Joe, wrong again. I have a long resume of successful work on improving various cities in which I lived and participated. I know the difference between good deals and money-grubbing, gigantic wastes of taxpayers dollars which is what the proposed downtown arena is.
Of course, we talked briefly at the Wichita EAGLE meetup and perhaps the previous one. I thought you told me you were thinking of joining the U.S. Army but you said I got you mixed up with someone else. In any case, you seem to want to help Wichita. So I can’t see how you could possibly believe the super-expensive albatross downtown arena could be good for Wichita.
For a fellow who claims to be a Republican or maybe a Libertarian — how can you defend a deal which spells, “Take big money from the many, pass it on to the few”? Or “From each according to his ability, to each according too his personal need.”
These were credos of the American Communist Party. Interesting that their party president during the 1930’s was Earl Browder who grew up in Wichita not far from the downtown arena site.
Frankly, I think you know better. Joe, you are being used by the pro-arena out-of-towners. Don’t let them take advantage of you. This will ruin any hopes you might have of a future political career.
Good point JW. I get the feeling Joe hasn’t traveled much or seen many other cities and what works and doesn’t work there. Especially since he now seems to think it is a good thing that the Thunder will not play there.
I want to believe that Joe wants what’s best for Wichita; however if I use his standards I cannot do that. His way of thinking requires me to conclude that he favors white elephant boobdoggles.
MRage: Like Joe, you and I talked at the EAGLE’s bloggers meetup so I have a general idea of your goal for Wichita. If I understood you correctly, you played football at an area high school, which experience was a high point in your life. As a result you are a huge fan of football at all levels.
Your personal goal is to build an outdoor football stadium somewhere in Wichita so it can be used by local high schools, colleges and perhaps an independent team. I notice on the WE Blog that you are not a fan of indoor football.
Apparently you are a luke warm fan of the downtown arena because locating it in Wichita proper might help your “football stadium” effort.
Anyway, the bottom line for you is your interest in OUTDOOR FOOTBALL STADIUMS and NOT INDOOR ARENAS. Apparently the cost now of some $300,000,000.74 to the taxpayers of Sedgwick County and Wichita doesn’t particularly concern you since you hope to use private investors/funds to pay for your project.
Ed, “Buy a ticket, on the back of the bus.”Your rants, get old after a time and usually, add nothing to the discussion at hand.
Go fight your own battle, with the Jewish Nation. Your comments, as such, just demean you as a person.
But, I think you’re used to that!!
You really, must be a sorry person!
When did the Big 12 say no, Ben?
There was a quote about not playing in a 15,000 seat arena.
I’m telling you, we’re not getting a 15,000 seat arena no matter what robots say today.
The County phrased a bad statement. Reality of 2003 in Omaha said, we can’t build a 15,000 seat facility for $184 million when the Qwest Center originally began with 15,000 seats, cost $216 Million.
The County was correct about asking for a 30 month sales tax.
A great way to pay for it, collectively.
I hope the County can raise at least $216 Million with the tax. That way we are on the same path with how the Qwest Center was created.
Final tally for Omaha, $297 Million, the difference with private investment.
They increased seats to 18,000. Now will get NCAA tournament games.
It’s rational, our arena will have 18,000 permanent seats.
Increased private investment will happen, I can’t say who and how much.
They don’t have say who and how much at this time. They don’t work on a schedule I control.
I only had acknowledgments that the Big 12 tournament in Oklahoma City was a fun event and great place to have it.
Our arena should try to get that event, three different executives told me. Three different corps.
I know Kevin Weiberg regrets the WSU past on football, and I’m sure he would like Wichita to step up and try to win the Big 12 basketball tournaments.
Regardless of him and future governors of Kansas, we should qualify as a community to get the tournament. We should be ready for that kind of event. Get the Big 12, mens and women’s basketball tournament as it moves around.
Other teams KU plays against might find it a more “road game” experience. Play KU in Wichita on a neutral court instead of being in Kansas City. I’m positive teams will take us up on the offer.
KU didn’t play DUKE, NORTH CAROLINA, or KENTUCKY that often
Maybe they don’t want to in the KC market with KU. Not in Allen Field house, not in KC. Wichita, possibly.
We can have regular season matchups with whatever teams WSU, KSU and KU have.
That’s our advantage, three different state colleges, playing off campus games in the Sedgwick County arena, occasionally.
KU just played in an older San Jose arena on National TV with 18,000 seats. For college basketball that’s the proper sized seating facility.
We are in the right spot for regional events. The Sprint Center, Qwest Center, and Ford Center, sharing of events can happen here. We can compete for arena events with those communities.
We have to step up in a variety of community ways.
Hope to see everyone at tomorrow, Sunday’s big “Re-Vote Downtown Arena” rally. It will be at 3 PM at Sedgwick County Park, 13th Street entrance. Special guests, petitions to sign, hopefully a fun time for all. Suggest you try to arrive a few minutes early.
Better bring your own coffee. No county funds involved. JWink
JWink,
Omaha properly spent tax payer money up to $216 Million for their arena.
We have to do the same.
Whether you think that’s a huge amount, big deal. Some things cost more.
My stadium idea will cost double of the arena, but less taxpayer money.
I don’t think the arena is a huge cost at all.
Sacramento California, can’t build a 20,000 seat arena there less than $400 Million. Could be $500 Million.
My stadium idea with 50,000 seats won’t cost $500 Million.
Engineering in stadium costs have gone down because schematics are available. Cost of equipment, labor and materials does rise over the years. What to do with tons of construction trash is question here.
Sooner a facility is built, the better.
We need to prioritize the $300,000,000.12 proposed for the downtown arena for other uses. I definitely don’t have a comprehensive list at hand but a few I can think of from articles in the Wichita EAGLE are:
1) Treatment facilities for the homeless. Also for Kansas prison system parolees to reduce need for more multi-million dollar county and state jail facilities.
2) A new water reservoir on the south branch of the Ninnescah River to provide additional water sources in the future.
3) A “Parent Academy” for parents of students in the local school system to improve student attitudes and grades.
4) A world class “Bowling center” with all the bells and whistles to attract bowlers to Wichita from all over the world. This has a much better chance for success than another white elephant ice skating rink.
These are just a few ideas of many that citizens suggest in various meetings.
James, The world is onto your disgusting act and your feeble attempted insults only help to make that point. Just another pathetic Zionist wimping out about being caught.
“I’m telling you, we’re not getting a 15,000 seat arena no matter what robots say today.” So says you. Everyone involved says 15,000 seats. Joe!? How many seats?
“Our arena should try to get that event, three different executives told me. Three different corps.” WHO? Let them come forward and convince me. SHOW ME THE MONEY!
“Increased private investment will happen, I can’t say who and how much.” And the moon is made of green cheese.
“When did the Big 12 say no, Ben?There was a quote about not playing in a 15,000 seat arena.” Perhaps you have not noticed – the Sedgwick County Arena is 15,000 seats.
“The County phrased a bad statement.” Is that the new term for LYING? Did the LIE? I HAVE THE FLYER THEY USED TO GET PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR IT!
JWink – unfortunately my schedule conflict today is worse than I thought. The other meeting – to which I am comitted – is also at 3. Hopefully I will have someone else there.
Ben,
Your argumentative for the sake of it rant, should be to me, not Joe.
I do say the arena will have 18,000 seats, mark it down. I have every confidence “arena reality” exists.
For a long time in this process I didn’t care, long as it was constructed, but now I’m focused on helping the project.
It must be competitive for events with neighboring arenas. It must get TV contracts. It must involve WSU, KSU and KU basketball teams, occasionally.
We can build the right sized seating arena and still fail to get tournaments from the Big 12 and NCAA March Madness games, because of “culture” in our community.
So many things half done. So many attitudes obstructionist.
The I-won’t-go badges of community honor, worn proudly on some people.
We do have slow government officials, they stay silent, vague, use robots to send out messages and people hate that.
People use what robots say and do, then go crazy.
Its simple, if we create the proper sized arena, there isn’t much to talk about, except parking downtown.
All this noise isn’t about cost of the facility, its usefulness of the arena. People truly believe it won’t be competitive with neighboring arenas. It won’t stay busy enough.
Future tax money will be funneled into a failing project, because its not competitive.
Everyone is thinking, the arena at 15,000 seats isn’t big enough. Reality with neighboring arenas proves that.
No matter the amount County raises with the tax, everyone wants the proper sized and competitive for events arena.
Mrage – I will ‘mark it down’ – 18,000 seats. Care to give us a date for the announcement?
“All this noise isn’t about cost of the facility, its usefulness of the arena. People truly believe it won’t be competitive with neighboring arenas. It won’t stay busy enough.” ON THIS I AGREE – MY ISSUE IS WILL IT BE USEFUL?
“Future tax money will be funneled into a failing project, because its not competitive.” I FULLY INTEND TO FIGHT AGAINST FUNNELING MORE FUTURE TAX MONEY INTO IT. I HOPE YOU WILL JOIN ME.
“Your argumentative for the sake of it rant, should be to me, not Joe.” I AM NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT – RIGHT NOW MY ARGUEMENT IS WITH BOTH OF YOU BUT DIFFERENT. YOU BECAUSE I THINK YOU ARE DREAMING ABOUT SOMETHING (18000) THAT WON’T HAPPEN. JOE BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT HIS 15000 SEAT WILL FAIL AND COST THE COMMUNITY A LOT.
For what it is worth, I feel that I was lied to on the arena vote.
I’m not as knowledgeable on the matter as others, but let’s say I don’t like being duped into a vote for a tax raise that won’t pay for all the “other things” necessary to complete the arena project.