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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted March 15, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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114 Comments
The Parable of the Old Man and the Young
So Abram rose, and clave the wood, and went,And took the fire with him, and a knife.And as they sojourned both of them together,Isaac the first-born spake and said, My Father,Behold the preparations, fire and iron,But where the lamb for this burnt-offering?Then Abram bound the youth with belts and strops,And builded parapets and trenches there,And stretched forth the knife to slay his son.When lo! an angel called him out of heaven,Saying, Lay not thy hand upon the lad,Neither do anything to him. Behold,A ram, caught in a thicket by its horns;Offer the Ram of Pride instead of him.
But the old man would not so, but slew his son,And half the seed of Europe, one by one.
– Wilfred Owen1893 – 1918
Interesting take on an old story.
When I think of the biblical story of Abraham and Issac, I don’t really see it as an incredible leap of faith by Abraham….I look at it from Issac’s point of view.
Who would want Abraham for a father after that? Didn’t they have SRS back then. lol
Randy Scholfield, Eagle opinion editor: I think your editorial this morning, “Still at it,” is way off base. Considering the fact Wichita City Hall is experiencing gigantic problems that aren’t getting solved, now more than ever before, this election cycle needs intellectual discussion about how to solve some of these problems. Your name calling at this point is unwarranted. Surely, Randy, you can do better to use your pulpit to be positive not negative.
Any news on our friends from “Fisting with Fury”?
Is the boycott still on?
Went to Cirque du Soliel last night…and was amazed!! What an incredible performance….the tickets were a tad expensive, but certainly worth it!
Upcoming…Blue Man Group…Earth Wind and Fire…lots going on here in good ol Wichita!
Fleetwood, I think some of them are back – at least under different names.
However, it DOES seem much more civil, does it not?
We can actually discuss issues….that’s commendable.
The problem with the boycotter’s is that they drew a line in the sand….and nobody cared.
Perhaps that’s because they (some of them) were MORE guilty of the VERY things they accused others of….?
I’ll be glad to see Ben and Linda back, however. Good folks.
Until then – I see we are attracting some new (and intelligent) blood to the boards – so things are looking up. Maybe newcomers didn’t want to post amid a ruckus, but will feel more comfortable now?
Raptor – I’ve SEEN Cirque de Soliel!
AMAZING!!!!
It’s been awhile, and you’re right, it’s expensive – but, dang….that’s one HECK of a SHOW!
Food for thought:
““The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life. Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, the education, the money, than circumstances, than failure, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company… a church… a home. The remarkable thing is we have a choice everyday regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past… we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude. I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it. And so it is with you… we are in charge of our Attitudes.” Charles Swindoll
WeBlog Held Hostage: Day 2
So, will today be another peaceful blogging day with the absence of the strikers? Or, will it be another day of Bloggers Gone Wild!
Yes, certainly has been peaceful here.
I can actually type something without being called 20 different types of slurs, curses and accused of being multiple personalities.
Perhaps the people that left are discovering who the real problem people were…themselves.
I wonder if JR has found a horse head in his bed yet?
Wendy~ That is my favorite ’saying’ is posted on my office wall.
The Army is saying that the troop surge and the battle for Al Sadr is gaining ground.
But isn’t it more because the Al Sadr leader, earlier this year, said they were pulling back?
And, even though the insurgency in Baghdad seems to be subsiding, it is becoming more active in other parts of the country?
Maybe Ken has a point about Al Sadr pulling back and the reason for success.
However, I tend to be an optimist about our Armed Forces and believe that the reason Al Sadr is pulling back is because of the success of our Military. I would liken this to the success we had against the Taliban in Afghanistan.
Sure, the Taliban have tried to come back, but are unable to gain any foothold as the people of Afghanistan and now the NATO forces have come together to push back any of the Taliban advances.
I never lost faith in our military’s ability; evidently some have.
When Bush proposed the ’surge’, one of the conditions was that the rules of engagement be changed.No longer were we going to allow the Iraqi gov’t to free certain persons we had taken prisoner, and some other rules changes.
One of the changes is that ‘Sadir City’ is no longer off limits to US Forces. Thats why Sadir skedaddled.
perhaps, Bush finally let his military ‘take the gloves off’.
Why no outlander I have not.
I’m not going to waste my time counting. I don’t need to.
The majority of the posts on this, the open thread are talking about how glad you are and satisfied with the situation. Huh.
Sorta like “You can’t fire me! I quit!”
And except for outlander, all the posters yukking it up about the situation are among the bad actors. Huh.
And look at outlander’s post. Anything there to mull over or go to war for? By the way, bad on you Outlander. Do unto others and all that.
And you guys are Borr rinnng. I’m out before an insurance seminar breaks out!
JR’s still bitter. Perhaps his time-out wasn’t long enough.
Speaking of insurance, my homeowner’s went down. I could hardly believe it.
And, I prefer comprehensive, with a $1000 deductible.It works quite well for me.
Yes, higher deductibles make good sense for me as well. Save the money on your premiums and invest it as part of your emergency fund. Then you’ll have the money handle the higher deductible if needed.
Maybe J R wasn’t expecting adult conversation. As I said before, some join Blogs for the social and entertainment aspect. Perhaps this is the reason why J R has joined this Blog, but has failed to admit it is the primary reason he has joined it.
Not that there is anything wrong with being social or entertained.
However, discussion of issues, ideas, philosophies do require a certain amount of concentration and dedication. Sometimes that works out as “dry” subject matter.
My apologies in advance to those who use Blogs as entertainment or social settings, there is nothing wrong with it.
Just giving my evaluation on the matter. :)
Boring.. And you say that like it is a bad thing?
Before I got sober a few years back, I had lots of ‘excitement’ in my life. Arrests. Bar fights. Accidents. Broken furniture, etc. When I got sober, my sponsor told me things would be “a bit quieter, almost boring”. I have had enough ‘trauma and drama’ in my life, and find the sober world to be more predictable and stable. Yes, that could be called “boring”.
On a similar vein, yes, it is quieter on this blog without the personal attacks, slander, vile insults and gratuitious flame wars. It is much more pleasant and mature..sort of like ‘real life’.
If that is ‘boring’, then that works for me.
Very well said my fine, edified friend.I think this bloke will indulge himself with some fine tea. (pinky finger extended, of course).
Oh by the way?
SOB I could not care less what you link to.
But kids do read this blog. We had a CONSERVATIVE reader post the other day that he and his kids read here. HE was coming to the defense of writerdog (Republican) and farmgrrl on the occasion of their having their nics stolen to post vile things. He wished people would behave better on the blog his kids read. Granted, 2 days of you guys and all the readers are probably asleep! But just in case?
SO I am gonna say again that your pornography link is probably not appropriate here. TOO your fellow bloggers might be interested in how you think of them. “ALL bloggers suck period”?
You TOO?
Have fun! (look it up)
J R forgive me if I am mistaking the meaning of your phrase “the defense of writerdog (Republican).”
I am not writerdog and am sure that writerdog would be equally offended at the assertion. Well, at least he might be offended that he could possibly be considered me.
We are individuals, writerdog is a much better Wordsmith than I and I enjoy his entries here on the Blog.
I’d have to agree with JR that SOB’s link is completely inappropriate. I ashamedly admit that I was curious as to what the big deal was after JR mentioned it yesterday and checked it out. That’s part of the reason that I don’t tend to click on links in here unless I can tell what the source is and what it is going to be. I was hoping that he’d be mature enough to take it upon himself to fix it so I didn’t say anything but apparently he isn’t… On the other hand, I don’t really see what we can do about it. He’s been asked to remove it and he is refusing. And some could say (although I don’t believe it fits this situation), if you don’t like it, don’t click on it…
“ALL bloggers suck period”?
You TOO?
Hey J R, is that your ” you can’t fire me, I quit statement”? It kinda reminds me of the little mouse flipping the bird to to the giant hawk as it swopes down, talons outstretched to devour him.
“pornography link” oh brother.
It’s posted as a joke dude.
Ok, ok….just to be nice I’ll change it for you. But, JR, you may find the new link even more offensive. :)
LOL SOB!
Oh by the way, my apologies to all the women on the blog, I forgot to bring this up on the appropriated day. I apologize. :(
International Women’s Day (IWD) is marked on 8 March every year. It is a major day of global celebration for the economic, political and social achievements of women.
Again, I’m sorry I failed to mention it.
SOB and others breathlessly awaiting my post.
SOB I did not ask you to be nice. I aint nice. If you don’t know that you are new here or you aint paying attention.
I can swing the meat axe or flame roast with the best of them. I eat lightning and I crap thunder!
Just not right now.
We are learning how to properly be part of a discussion forum. Now you all are rather hard headed and the going is slow. But I see progress and am encouraged. ( The condescending tone is not meant for EVERYONE.)Little ol’ me here alone and against the storm and you are managing not to treat me too shabbily. No one is trolling my nic or anyone elses nic. Posters not “present” are not being attacked.
And a newer poster AFN took one of “his own” to task for something most would call inappropriate. The situation was resolved without the intervention of the editors.
See? That’s the way we need to be thinking.
MOST people come to post here because they want to engage in political debate. Or they want their words to reach and move others. Or they feel they have something that is not commonly known to share. Or they wish to bring a different light to what someone else has posted.SO in general, they are best served if the forum has at least some semblance of order.
Then there are others who come here to disrupt or draw attention to themselves or fight underhanded against posts and posters that they cannot refute in a respectable way. I’ll get back to them.
Well, you could know the secrets of the universe. But if you are trying to share them with me and others in the middle of a soccer riot? Chances are I won’t hear you. No one else will either.
Now I know that we on the left differ from you on the right in that you all tend to be “rugged individualists”. You are responsible for your activity here and no one elses! We had much commentary on that yesterday. Well, in a discussion where our goal is to be heard? We have a shared responsibility to afford others the priviledge. If they use it irresponsibly that tends to take care of itself. This forum has always had a high level of qualification for backing up what one posts.
Now if a poster has their nic hijacked and we see it or suspect it, we have an obligation to that person to call it out. Even if doing so tends to hurt “our side”. Such activity should be universally condemned. If we want to have our words taken seriously, we must be secure in our identities and not have them diluted by those who seek only to disrupt.
WEblog agreed standards of mutual civility 1
Thou shalt not suffer a nic stealer.
You all mull that over. Do not talk about me or the posters on the left. We don’t engage in nic stealing. At least it doesn’t SEEM to be much of a problem. And when we see it we call it out. It is rampant on your side of thought. How can you all address this?Discuss
Let’s hold hands.
“You all mull that over. Do not talk about me or the posters on the left. We don’t engage in nic stealing.” Posted by: J R | March 15, 2007 at 12:53 PM
I find this hard to believe, but basically it is unprovable. So, no sense in going there. With that said, writerdog already pointed out an example of how Galahad (aka CapnAmerica) stole his nic and tried to accuse writerdog of the post. writerdog even pointed out that his name writerdog was misspelled.
How do we know that the person behind Galahad didn’t repeat this offense a few times more or many times more?
Like I said, it’s a moot point, but one that needs the soil turned over so we can examine the population of what worms are cultivating the soil of disruption. :)
And J R, what is your point of finger pointing here?
So what if a person posts under one identity or one thousand identities. It is absolutely their right to do it. There is nothing I can see in WE Blog rules that prohibits it. The WE Blog can remove content any time they wish.
If this was password protected Blog site, I could see your point.
But it is not a password protected Blog site and people can go and leave as they wish.
You may not like it and may try to convince WE Blog (AKA Wichita Eagle) to change it, but let me ask you this:
Are you going to bear all of the expense it will take to reprogram the Blog site and all of the their stored archives on the Blog? Are you going to pay for a full time or part time Blog monitor? Who comes up with the bucks for this project?
Unrealistic? Nope, the Wichita Eagle is a place a business, they provide this free Blog. Granted, it has no Bells or Whistles, but it is free.
Part of the free entry is that it has draw backs, including controlled access and Blog monitoring.
Now, I don’t need to show anyone the door, you already know where it is.
Either you accept the WE Blog as is, properly submit your requests to Phillip Brownlee or just leave. Come back if you want, but quit whining about it.
I respect a Blog that has civility and this is exactly what we have since “certain” people have left.
That’s my take on the matter. Call me Satan or whatever you wish, I might consider making a nic with that moniker. JOKING!!! :)
Hank Price and Joe Williams,
Two more items on that NY Times’ hit piece on Al Gore that you posted earlier.
‘VERY BROADLY SPEAKING! Don Easterbrook may not reed reel gudd. Ditto the Times’ William Broad:’http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh031407.shtml
‘The New York Times Asks the Wrong Question’http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carl-pope/the-new-york-times_b_43303.html“Uncertainty about the details of global warming shouldn’t make us feel less alarmed — the more uncertainty there is about our climactic future the more alarmed we should become, exactly as Gore is urging us.”
JR,
Got a new link for you.
Don’t be preaching at me.
JR
“Do not talk about me or the posters on the left. We don’t engage in nic stealing. At least it doesn’t SEEM to be much of a problem.”
I’m not as convinced of that as you are. The bottom line, however, is simply don’t feed the trolls, don’t respond to nic stealing. And don’t respond to bad behavior, from either side.I don’t care who started it – I don’t suffer that excuse from my kids, and I won’t suffer it here. We are still all responsible for ourselves, and engaging in reprehensible posting in response to others is still wrong.
Ignore bad behavior. In reality, it’s the only control we’ve got. It demands self-control. Surely we can exhibit this? WS? CF? I know you’re out there reading – you just can’t help yourself!!
And yes, fleet, etc., on the right, that means you, too.
Happy now, JR? Get over yourself, step off the high horse, quit imagining your “side” is populated only with angels, and jump on in.
SOB, we crossed. You said it perhaps better than I.
Cosmos,
Glad to see you back posting.
The problems with your postings of one news writer against the other, is exactly that. That is, it is the opinion of one news writer against the other and none of them are experts or Climatologists.
I understand the premise you have lain out in your discussion of GW, but let’s keep reporters (from all sides) and politically motivated people out of the discussion of an area that needs to be discussed scientifically.
That would include me, as I am a non-scientist. :)
I could contribute nothing but my personal, uneducated opinions on GW and would most likely confuse the issue. Leave the scientists from both sides to duke it out.
Unfortunately though, the GW IPCC gang have already violated this principle and have hit squads out of anyone that does not believe in their cause.
I find that reprehensible.
Reactionary and defensive on your part Republican.
I am addressing the blogger formerly known as RepubliKhan am I not?aka Eier, aka half a dozen other nics originally JM?Well you are a good illustration.
As I say, if we wish our words here taken seriously, we must be accountable for them.
Like it or not, you are JM. Fair or not, you are JM. TRUE or not, you are JM.
See? That’s a result of the bad behavior here. You may or may not be JM yet you must bear his “sins” and the sins of all his other percieved nics. It’s telling but puzzling that you advocate the very sort of behavior that put you in this spot.
Anonymity and the ability to switch nics means never having to say you are sorry. And that’s a GOOD thing if it isn’t abused. It gives a poster the chance to redeem himself and start with a fresh slate. But as you yourself illustrate, abuse of the option diminishes the value of your posts.
Now probably everybody plays at nics. It can be useful harmless and fun. We lose that if we restrict the forum. How about policing ourselves instead? Think twice before you hit post and you don’t have to become a “new” poster. And those who say outrageous things must live with them.(suggested)
WEblog laws of mutual civility II
To thine ownself be true. Thou shalt not dopple nic.
GMC70,
No problem, your reply is more complete. I’m a man of few words.
…I wonder if JR is the messenger from the Cut N’ Run striking gang? I’m just wondering..
Interesting comments J R. Too bad you are taking the low road on all of this.
Pointing fingers without proof. Why is that all so familiar?
Conspiracy theory anyone?
Strange stance for someone of your profession GMC.
Ignore bad behavior? Yeah?Even if someone posts in someone elses identity and you know it? Maybe you don’t see a problem because it has not affected you.
Folks likely on “your side” of debate have stolen nics and posted the most vile of things. An accredited scientist who dares to use his real name here is a frequent victim. A man whose father is a quadriplegic has his nic stolen and his personal hardships and father made light of UNDER HIS OWN NIC.No GMC. No reasonable advocate of responsible free speech should ignore such things. And if we can’t get it stopped voluntarily through self enforcement than we are going to HAVE to have security. I’m hoping for the former especially from you.respectfully
J R
My interests are my own and the blog. I am taking no orders, advice or suggestions from anyone.
I’m gonna let you all chew on this together. It IS your problem. I can’t solve it for you. I have tried to help.
I’ve had my nic trolled a few times. I just laughed it off and it went away. Big deal.
There is nothing anyone one can do or say here that will make the eagle change how they run their blog. It’s a free service. What would they lose if the Cut N’ Runners never came back or if nobody at all used it? I think nothing. People will still come to their web site.
Wendy I loved the Chuck Swindoll quote. Very true. It is a great illustration of how we are responsible for ourselves. We can try to influence others but we can’t take responsibility for what they do in the end.
SOB I for one am glad you took that off. I found it inappropriate for this blog. The replacement is a very telling story of how we have all looked at stories. This man took the responsibility for the beheading of Daniel Pearl. He also admitted that he spearheaded the first twin tower attack. It puts the lie to the opinion that we are creating terrorists by our actions in the middle east. Terrorists were always there and were moving into our sphere when we hit back.
JR glad to see you back. I am looking at several different sources on GW with an open mind. I know there are several things we can do to help this situation without throwing our entire capitalistic society in the dumper. I did see an unusual article this morning on a different cougar species. This is a species thought not to have existed as far back as 1.4 million years ago. I am not a scientist and would like to know how this can be determined. What fossil was used in carbon testing this animal. No underlying motive I would really like to know.
J R,
I will hold back on using any of the comments from those have chose to leave as they are not here to defend themselves.
But, let me say this, all I have to do if I choose to do so, is go back and extract those comments and post them here.
I’m am very strongly and absolutely positively sure you do not want me to do that as it will show the naked truth on how those “poor” people themselves have engaged in the same type of conduct as you appear to accuse those here of doing.
So, how about giving us all a break on victim hood.
Discuss the issues presented by the WE Blog or not. It’s pretty simple and it is a bit of an acquired taste. :0 (oO)
Republican,
it seems to me, from reading JR’s posts, is that is not so much that he is saying they don’t do it – as he is saying that many posters here today are going on and on about how they are the only ones WHO do it, and he is simply pointing out the error of that statement. Perhaps he is getting defensive about it because you are harping on the fact yourself – as if you expect him to apologize for the transgressions of others for which he is not responsible… remember, whether you like them or not, these people are his “friends” and, as I am sure you would with your friends, he feels the need to point out that the problem does not lie solely with them and that perhaps members of your “side” should take a little responsibility for their own actions as well…
ksgrm
I never went anywhere. I’m glad you appreciate my presence. Please think on what I post.
I think you will find the documentary I suggested not just motivational but also hopeful. Ya can’t be an American without i can.
Did I really say that? I’m gonna go right over and be sick!
On your question, I don’t know. I suspect there are those who could help but they are not about just now…
I hope you have an enjoyable trip.
OK I can’t keep being the driving force on this thread. Somebody elses turn.
Click link below for definition of EGOMANIAC
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/egomaniac
JR -
Republican said it well above (1:08). It is not OUR problem (in the sense that it is just a “rightie” problem, and noting that you continue to draw this little artificial divide). If I engage in such behavior, it is MY problem. If I do not, it isn’t. I don’t. I know you don’t.
And the best way to deal with such behavior, bad as it may be, is to ignore it. This blog offers no other tools. Bloggers who get no response ultimately will leave, and go somewhere where they can push buttons with reaction. That is what they want, of course. Reaction.
Some (on both “sides”) simply need to learn to express themselves in less hostile fashion, grow up, and understand that persons may disagree – deeply – and still be good persons. Even friends.
And my profession understands that not every problem has a legal fix. Ya can’t fix stupid – and ya can’t legislate good manners or enforce people into being decent human beings.
So you can pull on your big boy panties and participate, like a grown up and acting like a grown up (and that’s not a slam, JR, as I’ve said before, you are not part of the problem posters here), or you can do as the boycotters have done, throw a fit and leave (well, sorta leave, right WS?).
And “driving force?” Only in your own inflated mind.
Thanks Wendy for the polite knuckle rap.
I will endeavor to keep my moral pencil less sharp. :)
GMC70
I realize that it’s probably a symptom of your profession, but you use too many words.
Here, let me try-
Don’t feed the Trolls.Get a life.
As always, Hank, less is indeed more!
Republican,
“That is, it is the opinion of one news writer against the other and none of them are experts or Climatologists.”
It’s about facts, and what was said/written, not “opinions”.Do you want to argue that Gore’s “our civilization” = Easterbrook’s “past 15,000 years”?
Did you read http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh031407.shtml ?It shows that Easterbrook (and the NYT’s Broad) did NOT correctly read what Gore said in his book.
Look at the IPCC graph in Gore’s book, page 64 — the Medieval Warm Period is a tiny blip compared to Earth’s warming during recent years.
Republican: “Leave the scientists from both sides to duke it out.”
They’ve already decided — the general agreement among peer-reviewed climate scientists is that humans are causing GW.
On the skeptics side, you’ve got Easterbrook misstating Gore’s point, Peiser admitting his study re papers was wrong, Spencer’s study containing arithmetic errors, etc..
That’s nice Cosmos. I’ll take your word for it.
Please don’t make my brain hurt from too much Science stuff. :D
cosmos
“They’ve already decided — the general agreement among peer-reviewed climate scientists is that humans are causing GW.”
Reminds me of a line from the movie Schrek- as he pulls a page from the fairy tail book to wipe is arse with “What a load of crap”.
Quick cosmos, tell me, what is the most influential of the “greenhouse gasses”.
I’m ready for next scare story from the left. The whole “climage change” myth is getting old. What’s next I wonder? I know: endangered flies.
If Global Warming WERE man-induced, which I don’t believe has been conclusively established, perhaps the WORST thing climatologists could do – is allow a politician to ‘push’ the issue.
And why, if this is truthful, are there some scientists that have gotten Death Threats because they have spoken out against it?
There is a growing trend – and it is AGAINST the Global Warming agenda – and it is FROM SCIENTISTS.
[quote]An astounding documentary that was broadcast in the UK last night completely trounced the man-made explanation for global warming, not with emotionally-laden propaganda or by attacking the messenger as its adherants resort to, but by presenting carefully considered and rational science.
The Great Global Warming Swindle brought together a plethora of scientists, professors, climatologists and weather experts to expose the myths about climate change that have been promulgated in order to hoodwink the world into accepting the man-made theory of global warming.[end quote]
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/090307warminghoax.htm
JR I am leaving tomorrow. Taking grandkids for spring break so have to wait for them to get our of school.
I do have a question. Say I give you that GW is indeed a fact because I’m really not sure one way or the other.
What do we need to do now? I know we need the CAFE standards strengthened. I agree with that. I’m just not sure what else is needed at this point. My home is very energy efficient. I drive a bigger car than I need most day but find I need it at other times.
This is a serious post. Please give me some guidelines.
“climate change” myth
I tend to think there is evidence of global warming, however I don’t think we can be entirely certain it is man made in its entirety. The reason, computer models are only as accurate as the data fed into them, and we don’t really know what cycles led to warming and cooling over periods longer than what 150 or years?
I think there is some cause for concern that there is greenhouse gases present, which could help to contribute to an accelerated warming, but who is to say we aren’t in a warming stage as a precursor to a cooling stage? Not like we have alot of environmental data for past ice ages and their precursors.
My thought is, there probably isn’t much harm in curbing activities(not necessarily taxing activities) that could contribute to warming. I mean, I live three blocks from the store, and there is no need to drive if all I need is a gallon of milk for instance.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
GSheridan,
You should read these before watching the ‘Swindle’ movie. It’ll give you a better perspective about it. ;)
http: //climatedenial.org/2007/03/09/the-great-channel-four-swindle/”Most of the people on the programme are professional communicators who are more familiar with the chat show than the lab. Of course they give good interviews – it is what they do for a living.”
‘Channel 4 Now Ashamed of its Experts’http://www.desmogblog.com/channel-4-now-ashamed-of-its-experts“Even the Calgary Herald, the leading newspaper in the Canadian oil capital of Calgary, has said that Ball is “viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.” ”
Climate scientist ‘duped to deny global warming’http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2031455,00.html“A Leading US climate scientist is considering legal action after he says he was duped into appearing in a Channel 4 documentary that claimed man-made global warming is a myth. Carl Wunsch, professor of physical oceanography at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, said the film, The Great Global Warming Swindle, was ‘grossly distorted’ and ‘as close to pure propaganda as anything since World War Two’.”
The real science,’Swindled!’http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/swindled/
See the film ksgrm.
At the end there are suggestions for those who ask “What do we need to do now?”
They are not onerous or painful. Most of them will save you money and reduce pollution at the very least.NONE of them are bad for America. Some of them are very good for America.There is also a website.I do not have it now. I’ve not been there yet myself. It is in the film.You see? We have nothing to lose by being proactive on this issue. Indeed, if we are responsible and forward thinking NOW we may never need to have last minute panic legislation. It can be up to us.
I am so very pleased for me and for you that you are willing to see with new eyes.
cosmos – what I’m finding is a polarization on the global warming front.
I DO find that many scientists think there is a warming trend, but more and more scientists are coming out AGAINST a CONFIRMED man-induced state of warming.
By nature, I’m a skeptical individual. When all the folks in my brokerage were stocking up on food and generators for Y2K, I didn’t buy anything extra. And I didn’t lose a minute of sleep that night, waking to find the doomsday had passed without incident just as all formerly predicted doomsdays.
On May 5, 2000, my co-workers again decided the earth was at a dangerous crossroads since there was a powerful alignment of a bunch of planets and the tectonis plates were gearing up to shift.
A few years before, some of my religious friends were expecting an ‘assension’ on a certain day. Can’t remember the date, now, but some here will likely remember. Anyway, the next day one commented that the naysayers were right – no assension of the righteousness had taken place, to which we responded that it really HAD taken place – we saw folks floating up right and left….guess he just got ‘left behind.’ lol I gotta wonder if the books didn’t stem from that incident.
But I digress….with more scientists speaking out against man-made warming, I’m becoming MORE skeptical – not less. It seems that everyday has a new story from experts who have sat back long enough and are just now speaking out.
If man-induced warming is real – you never should have let Gore use it for a political platform. That basically guarantees a whole group of folks will never take it seriously.
Heckler,
Water vapor is the “most influential” of the greenhouse gases (GHG’s).
But bad news… the warming caused by human-added GHG’s (CO2, methane, CFC’s, SF6, etc) will increase water vapor, and cause even more warming.
It’s a POSITIVE feedback, along with GHG’s released from thawing tundra, less heat reflected due to less ice/snow, less phytoplankton in a warmer ocean, …
What does peer-pressure play in this?
IN the Intergovernmental panel, they say 90% AGREE that man is at fault for at least SOME global warming.
That’s a BIG percentage after all.
But what speaks to me – is that fully 10% of the scientists do NOT agree.
If this were a jury – there would NOT be a verdict.
Is it too much to ask for evidence that is conclusive enough that 100 percent agree?
Copernicus, after all, stood alone – against ALL the other scientists with his theory….and yet his was correct.
History shows us that it is not always the majority that is correct. Especially in the field of science where theories change by the day as more facts are discovered.
GSheridan
Refreshing to see you relent on the issue. DO make sure of your facts.
And as I have told Hank, this is NOT a political issue for Al Gore! Al Gore at least at this time is not a politician! Further? This has been a personal crusade for him for a very long time.
Gotta ask the question.
GSheridan have you seen “An Inconvenient Truth”?
If you have not, don’t tell me why. I already went over all that with ksgrm. She has now committed to giving it a look. I encourage you to do the same.
LOL :)
On a lighter note – why does it have to be “sides” anyways?
Can’t we all just get along? :)
J R, I had seen the movie, I don’t agree with everything in(in so far as how much is cause by man), however, I still think if we can contribute to help slowing down global warming, then what is really the harm?
I mentioned above one of the things I do, I also use the more efficient light bulbs(while initially more costly, in the long run they do cost less as I don’t have to replace them quite as often).
There are simple things that everybody could do. I ride my bike to work for instance. Granted due to my family increasing in size I offset half of what I do with having to get a larger vehicle.
GSheridan,
Read the links about the ‘Swindle’ film… it’s BS.
“with more scientists speaking out against man-made warming, I’m becoming MORE skeptical – not less.”
Names please? I’m only seeing the same tired old skeptics… Singer, Ball, Lindzen, et al. And theories that are unsupporatble, like cosmic rays.
“you never should have let Gore use it for a political platform.”
Gore is NOT using it as a “political platform”. That’s your excuse for not believing AGW. And he’s only one of the “messengers”.
Gore is very qualified on the issue. He’s been involved in climate change since 1968, when he took Dr. Roger Revelle’s class (Mauna Loa, CO2).
Time to play the devils advocate though, lets pick on the energy efficient bulbs. Has anybody looked into the manufacturing process of these bulbs? Does it require more energy to make them? Do the electronics used to make the starter part of it pollute the atmosphere more or less than their “regular” bulb counter part?
See, now I gave myself something else to look into. Damn.. walks off to do some digging for a while.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2938762&page=1
More grist for the mill. Another call for moderation and common sense in our approach to the global warming issue.
Nice information on that link outlander, it explains the differences in layman’s terms on GW.
I remember being a school boy in the 70s and was somewhat scared about my future because of Global Cooling. This was magnified when I went to a State Fair that had Tornado Shelters with some pamphlets near by. One of the pamphlets talked about how to make water from snow and ice safely. My imagination got the best of me, until I read an article in the newspaper how the backers of Global Cooling were discredited for putting on a scare show.
I wonder how kids today in school think about this? Does it frighten them or do they even care?
I can tell you the message my grandkids bring home. We (the older caretakers) are all killing the planet. If we don’t change our ways quickly they will have no planet to call home. We consumers are the culprits and the bad guys. I’m not saying that this is what happens overall but it seems to be true for what the science classes kids in Derby and Haysville are hearing.
In some ways this fueled my skepticisim because I thought I was doing a pretty good job with my use of the planet. JR has made me take a longer look and do it without the prejudices of my previous ideas. I’ll report back when I have looked at some of the links on today and also the film.
Crazy when the kids get told this stuff and then the parents have to set them straight with reality.
outlander and Republican,
So you believe that opinion column by Philip Stott? He doesn’t have climate science credentials.http://www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=126
Stott’s op-ed?The cooling in the 1970’s was mostly journalists hype.The delay in warming is caused by the oceans, and aerosols.Cosmic rays show no trend since 1953.Solar does not explain recent warming — human-added greenhouse gases DOES explain it.
popup!<—-likes a free forum:)
popup!<—-wishes good posters would oppose behavior cases.
Republican<—–JM behavior case: (
farmgrrl”"Some trollers have outed CF and Ben and tried to create some job difficulties for them.”
RepublicanKhanJM “That’s life and life sucks sometimes.I don’t know Ben, but I can definitely say that CF is a world class loser from his postings here.Posted by: RepubliKhan | March 09, 2007 at 09:14 AM: (
popup!<–hopes posters see JM as problem child he is. : /
RepbulicanKhan<–demonstrates multi nic ing and defended same this thread!: (
popup!<—-will find more JM greatest hits. {OO}
Hey cosmos,
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/danish_scientist_global_warming_is_a_myth/20070315-012154-7403r/
More evidence that GW is more political than scientific! (notice the link is not to some left-wing nut)
Hank
WOW cosmos … he’s quite a guy!
“In fact, according to Stott, genetic engineering can already be confidently declared ‘an advance vital for human development’ and indeed, ‘essential for human survival’, being the ‘finest of all human adaptations’.
Here’s Prof Stott on the human genome project, ‘Today, we shall truly ”eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 1.17), for two teams of scientists… have come together to announce the decoding of the alphabet of human life. And ”we shall be as gods”.
He serves on the Advisory Forum of the Scientific Alliance, whose founder describes himself as ‘a businessman who is totally fed up with all this environmental stuff’ and has suggested Tony Blair introduces martial law.”
Cosmos,
No I don’t necessarily believe or accept anything from that link. It just made it easier for me to digest. I wasn’t understanding fully the differences between the two sides and I got a clearer picture.
I’m still undecided on the matter, but definitely agree that there is climate change occurring. What causes it might be beyond my basic sciences background to understand.
GSheridan,
“IN the Intergovernmental panel, they say 90% AGREE that man is at fault for at least SOME global warming.
But what speaks to me – is that fully 10% of the scientists do NOT agree.
If this were a jury – there would NOT be a verdict.”
The IPCC’s “very likely” (90% to 94%) is NOT the # of scientists that agree. It’s a confidence rating.
China and Saudi Arabia wanted the 90% replaced with 66%.
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/environment/2007/02/behind-scenes-at-ipcc-china-is-new-us.html“Another bone of contention was the sentence saying that human activities were “very likely” responsible for warming global temperatures. China and Saudi Arabia asked that “very likely” (90% probability) be replaced by “likely” (66%) – effectively keeping the same conclusion as the last IPCC report, in 2001. ”
Global Warming ‘Very Likely’ Man-Madehttp://apnews.myway.com/article/20070202/D8N1APV86.html
‘Climate Change 2007: The Physical Science Basis’http://www.ipcc.ch/SPM2feb07.pdf
Whoa!
Alleged admission from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said he personally beheaded Daniel Pearl, the correspondent.
That is one sick puppy and he needs a back shave…
Cosmos,
What is a confidence rating?
Would it be like I am confident that I can make a free throw and give myself a 90 percent confidence rating in doing so?
Howdy Bloggers
heh
I’m not here posting and yet my name is still being taken in vain. heh heh
popup! Don’t make me go Medieval on you. Behave yourself.
Adios and a word of advice – red beans and rice can make you fat. heh
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~parkerw/papers/ParkerUncertaintyIPCC.pdf
Hank Price,
“(notice the link is not to some left-wing nut)”
But Essex (mathematics) and McKitrick (associate prof in economics) ARE linked to,’FACTSHEET: Fraser Institute’http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=107“Fraser Institute has received $120,000 from ExxonMobil since 1998.”
And they do NOT understand global temperatures.March 14, ‘07http://rabett.blogspot.com/“… there are no global temperature measurements, there are global temperature ANOMALY measurements.”
That blog, and Deltoid, also rip apart the book written by Essex and McKitrick, “Taken by Storm”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Mahlman originated IPCC’s percentage system.
From IPCC’s report,”In this Summary for Policymakers, the following terms have been used to indicate the assessed likelihood, using expert judgement, of an outcome or a result:Virtually certain > 99% probability of occurrence, Extremely likely > 95%, Very likely > 90%, Likely > 66%, More likely than not > 50%, Unlikely < 33%, Very unlikely < 10%, Extremely unlikely < 5%.”
Thanks for whoever provided the Uncertainty and Certainty Evaluations by Dr. Parker. It was quite interesting and I’m pretty sure I’ll have to read it several times before it soaks in. :)
Overall, it looks as it will be a great guide on what to look for in discussing and evaluating issues of Science.
sue schlapp wants district two to vote for her because she is a former tennis pro for the wichita country club….
isn’t that odd?
cosmos
Water vapor, excellent. A warming environment would indeed cause more water vapor.
And what do you get with more water vapor? More clouds and precipitation. And what has the greatest impact in our temperature other than the sun? Cloudcover and precipitation events. More cooling effect.
How well do we understand changes to precipitation events and cloudcover as they relate to changing global temperatures? Not very well.
Heckler
I am sure cosmos will be along with a better arguement.
But hell, on the face of it? You played “riddle me this” earlier to work to this point?
“And what do you get with more water vapor? More clouds and precipitation. And what has the greatest impact in our temperature other than the sun? Cloudcover and precipitation events. More cooling effect.”
Well at least you quailified it with your closing sentence.
But really you’ve taken a long path to get nowhere.
On Venus, it is PRECISELY the perpetual cloudcover that maintains a continuous greenhouse effect that keeps the surface of that planet at a cozy 900 degrees!
Clouds are more than shade and cool rain. Clouds also hold in heat!
Cosmos, thanks for a civil and educational discussion today on the GW topic. I appreciate your effort, and when we all get along like this – I have a tendency to pay much better attention to the subject matter you present.
I’m still not totally convinced, and I’ll likely have more for you to address in the future – but I read your links and I thank you for your demeanor in discussing this.
Hillary Clinton goes to her doctor for a physical, only to find out that she’s pregnant.She is furious . . . Here she’s in the middle of her first run for president, and asSenator of New York this has happened to her. She calls home, gets Bill on thephone and immediately starts screaming; “How could you have let this happen?With all that’s going on right now, you go and get me pregnant! How could you?I can’t believe this! I just found out I am five weeks pregnant and it is all your fault!Your fault! Well, what have you got to say?”There is nothing but dead silence on the phone.She screams again, “Did you hear me?”Finally she hears Bill’s very, very quiet voice.In a barely audible whisper, he says, “Who is this?”
I’ve been rather busy over the past week, and I just caught up on my blog reading. I guess the majority of the lefties have run off…err, are boycotting.
Memo to the libs: your avoidance of the blog is having one solid effect – far less personal attacks.
Thanks for staying away.
Further:
I’ve been participating here for awhile – almost a year. And I’ve only encountered one threat, and I didn’t take it seriously at all.
It came from one of the boycotters – WSClark – in my personal email. *shrug*
Yea,
A while back I put forth the idea of a ‘BLOG’ Texas Hold ‘em tourney and the response in my email was overwhelming!
Two maybes and a really nasty response from one of the boycotters.
Heckler,
You’re wrong about more water vapor = “More cooling effect.”
It’s been studied, and it’s a positive feedback. A technical explanation,http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/11/busy-week-for-water-vapor
Lindzen is about the only one claiming it’s a negative feedback — and tests run by scientists failed to verify Lindzen’s theory.http://sciencepoliticsclimatechange.blogspot.com/2006/08/more-on-water-vapor-feedback.html
On a much happier note, Nathan left Iraq yesterday. Not sure where he’s at right now, maybe Kuwait and maybe in Germany on his way to California.
Should know when he’ll be home in a day or two.
I want to thank all of the BLOGers for their prayers and kind thoughts and words.
Hank
Cosmos,
I’m curious. Do you have a scientific background to help support your beliefs and understanding in the global warming theory data? I’m asking seriously, not as an attack. Thanks.
Hank, that’s great to hear of your son’s return to home. I can only imagine how that’s been for you and him and the rest of your family. Thank God for his safe return and thank Nathan for his service.
Hank
Many of the more long time bloggers of my side can tell you. Well they could if they were here. I have not wanted to comment much on Nathan. I didn’t and did not join the “Nathan” group because I did not want to seem to be talking out of both sides of my mouth about the Iraq situation.
Who needs me on your side? Like that.
Now, I can say that I am very pleased that he is out of there safe. I am sure I speak for others not “here” in expressing that. I think they would want me to tell you we are all very glad.
Hank I couldn’t be happier for you that Nathan is on his way home. I know how great you must feel about this but from a mom’s heart I want your wife to know I have been praying for her. Hope she is breathing easier now.Ksgrm
Is Nathan your son Hank? Regardless tell him Welcome Home for me. :)
Yes republican – Nathan is Hank’s son. A fine young man and patriot. Not as fat as his dad!
;^)
Thanks J R, everyone!
Nathan likes a lot of the ‘absent ones’! They have given him a lot of support on his latest adventure!
He’s been pretty busy the last few weeks, he’ll probably be a little disappointed when he hears of the boycott.
Hank
A man once told me if you can bench press your weight, you’re not fat. I’m close, but not fat yet!
Hank
Good news, Hank. I am very happy for you and yours.
And, I would like to extend those best wishes to all service families – as soon as possible.
My wife’s younger brother has to go back to Iraq in June, as his wife is expecting twin sons. My wife is going out to help with the family stuff early in the summer.
I am ready, on many levels, for this war to be over.
cosmos
I read the article you linked to regarding water vapor.
Fine, as far as it goes, but too simplistic. They only analyzed water vapor content. They did not touch on the effects of cloud cover,stopping radiation from reaching low elevations where it has the greatest affect on heat budget, and the dramatic cooling effect of precipitation events.
JR
Cloudcover can do both, hold heat in or keep heat out. But really JR, using Venus as an example?
As water vapor increases how does that effect cloud cover and precipitation on a global scale? And how does it effect the overall heat budget? We don’t know.
What about historic data? How do we know how much effect cloudcover and precipitation had on global temperature 1,000 or 10,000 years ago? We dont.
Great news, Hank!! THANKS for sharing that….I am really, really happy for you and Nathan!!!
Hank–
PS…could you please update when you learn of his confirmed arrival date? We (Patriot Guard) sometimes are able to get together to “welcome home” troops, and if possible, would like to schedule one for Nathan and his unit–only if it would be desired by you/the unit, etc. (We never go anywhere without invitation!)
Email is live..so let me know, ok? THANKS!
Well Hank – you definitely beat me on the bench press!
;^)
Hank,Mountain Man and I are so glad to hear of Nathan’s return safe and sound. We look forward to tossing back a few cold ones with him soon.
julie! You too? What’s is going on? Maybe cf and rd next?TIDAL WAVE!!