A bill in the Kansas Legislature that would make it harder to vote is a disservice to democracy, we argued in Thursday’s editorial.
The measure would require a passport or birth certificate from people registering to vote, as well as photo ID from people actually voting.
This is a solution in search of a problem. There’s no evidence of any significant level of voter fraud.
What is clear is that the measure would discourage thousands of Kansas citizens from voting at a time of already abysmally low turnout rates.
State officials should be making it easier to vote, not raising more barriers.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Phantom on Health care reform would save state money
- Phantom on Health care reform would save state money
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- Daniel on Open thread 11/22
- Rage on Open thread 11/22
- Rage on Open thread 11/22
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/22
- American_Way on Open thread 11/22
- Rage on Open thread 11/22
115 Comments
There is evidence that the Secretary of State DOES NOT have valid mailing addresses for about 100,000 voters in the state. No one cares that 100,000 people can vote, but you can’t mail them anything since we don’t know where they live. No possibility of fraud in our current system?
See: Kansas Senate Tried to Improve Integrity of Kansas Electionshttp://www.saljournal.com/blogs/?p=1795
In larger counties, like Sedgwick, Johnson, Shawnee, and some other counties, the election offices mail out registration cards to voters. When the post office cannot deliver the voter card, it is returned to the election office, and the election office marks the voter as “inactive”. However, legally they can still vote until they miss two presidential elections because of federal law. THIS IS RIPE FOR FRAUD.
Just find a neighbor that’s moved, especially out of state, or another county, perhaps a month or so before the election, and show up and claim you’re that person and vote for them. FRAUD IS SO EASY IN KANSAS ELECTIONS.
And when evidence of fraudulent activity is presented in court, like in the contested State Rep 16 race in Overland Park, the evidence is just IGNORED. Where’s the Eagle’s in-depth analysis of the facts of that contested election in Kansas? People voted that did NOT live at the addresses where they were registered. Did the Eagle study the evidence in that case? Did the Eagle knock on the doors to verify the facts were true in that case? The fraud was ignored, as the Eagle is doing now.
I’d suggest a new state law that REQUIRES a photo ID once a voter has been marked “inactive” by a local election office. If the post office can’t find them, and the voter hasn’t re-registered after moving, shouldn’t they be required to show an ID to avoid any possibility of voter fraud? Or, we want 100,000 folks to vote that don’t live at the addresses the election office has for them?
In 2004, a “Charles Brian Bradford” registered as a Democrat to vote at the SAME address as the then Johnson County Sheriff Currie Myers. Sherriff Myers complained to the then Johnson County District Attorney Paul Morrison. Morrison did NOTHING and this Democrat is still registered to vote at Myers’ home address. Should anyone be allowed to use your home address for voting purposes when they obviously don’t live in your house? If the Sherriff of Johnson County can’t get this problem fixed at his address, it’s likely the rest of us don’t have a chance. It’s troubling the now Attorney General Paul Morrison as District Attorney did NOTHING to fix this problem after it was reported to him.
Randy, can we all register to vote from your address? How would that make you feel?
Show SOME evidence that “the measure would discourage thousands of Kansas citizens from voting”.
Do you remember Ms. Cooley, who was the Eagle’s letters editor before Dave Knadler? At one time in 2005 she was registered to vote in THREE counties (SG, RN and JO, if I remember correctly) — this wasn’t her fault, but showed how weak the system was in 2005. The new system prevents some problems like this, but there are still some duplicates in the system, too.
Why does the Eagle continue to try to weaken the integrity of our elections?
Voting is easier now than ever before – and it’s NOT a wise thing. As Meadowlark points out – the ability to defraud the system is pretty high right now.
We need to make it TOUGHER to vote – not easier. There should be absolutely restrictions placed upon identity.
Funny thing about this is – the folks who have the hardest time getting to the polls, the elderly, are some of the biggest supporters of stringent ID requirements. They’ve lived long enough to KNOW the value of protecting our system.
It’s the young liberals that couldn’t care less.
It behooves us to remember that this country was NOT founded to be a pure Democracy.
We’re a Constitutional Republic, based upon Federalism.
Let’s get back to what our Founders intended.
I, like the former poster, question why the Eagle would try to weaken the integrity of our elections? Is there a method to their madness? Or just pot stirring?
Particularly in larger cities, voter fraud is a concern. I grew up in Chicago, where the dead have always voted — twice …
If politicians wanted to make it easier to vote they could do it quite easily — even easier than they try to make it now with early voting opportunities.
1. Designated Election days should be a Saturday and Sunday when more people are not working and don’t have to take time off to vote. Could also solve the problem of having enough qualified poll workers.
2. Polling places should be established were lots of people congregate — malls.
3. How about designated voting days at places were lots of people work — Spirit etc ….
4. A special needs transportation system for the handicapped and elderly — but they should be encouraged to use an absentee ballot.
There should be a way of verifying voter ID. A photo ID would be best. However, not everyone has a passport, and lots of people could be hard pressed to find their birth certificate. Any photo id should do, as long as it has a current address on it, or if not a bill or receipt from a new address with some form of photo id from the old address.
I could also support some mental competency test — but don’t know how that could be enforced.
That was a very sensible post, Ken. There are those who want to make it more difficult for citizens to vote at a time when apathy is rampant – doesn’t make sense. At the same time, the same interests are not interested in recommendations such as yours and the League of Women Voters that will make it even easier for citizens to cast their legal ballots. What is the disconnect? Partisan party politics . . . if the Republican Secretary of State can’t provide us with information that proves that we have a voter fraud problem in Kansas, then I think the appropriate conclusion to draw is, “this is a cure searching for an illness”.
Just an ID should be ok. Passport or Birth Cert is going a little too far.
Voter ID just needs a slogan.
“Voter ID is a Good Idea.”
(insert check mark)
Okay, I’m done. :)
The last three times I’ve changed jobs I needed a birth certificate as one of three forms of ID.
To cash a check at my bank, where I’ve had an account since ‘89, I have to show a photo I.D.
Birth cert. to register and photo ID to vote is not that big of a deal.
The “easier” it is to vote, the easier it is to cheat. And if showing a photo ID to vote is too “hard” then I don’t want you voting because you obviously don’t care enough about your rights and responsibilities.
The agenda in this case is transparent. Some Republican Legislators apparently fear a changing voter demographic and they want to protect their advantage by putting hoops in the system for new arrivals to jump through, thereby slowing down the process. A certain percentage of citizens, already adrift in the cost and minutia of daily living, will opt out of the process altogether.
My only other observation is that KS Meadowlark, though eloquent, seems overly alert and uptight at 2:11 a.m. Mozart and a spicy cigar are henceforth recommended.
TRTaliaferro
Birth cert. and photo I.D. constitute “hoops”?
This is just another right wing attempt to disenfranchize voters. KS Meadowlark is the champion of all of these anti-American causes. Simply ignore the rantings coming from Salina.
disenfranchise – yeah, uh huh
I think they call that accountability and responsibility for adults. :)
I’m sure you see it “that” way Repug.
Shall we go back to look at Florida in the 2000 “election”?
“This is just another right wing attempt to disenfranchize voters.”
BS! It could be a usual DEM voting ploy of rounding up everyone in a van and giving them smokes or food to vote Democratic. This is another attempt by BOTH PARTIES who oppose this measure to sell out America. IT is als pandering to “voters” whom have no business voting.
Apophis is a moron! Most of the “illegals” have false ID to work. Even our elected officials know that the DL is now a “suspect ID”. Hence, the need for Birth Cert. and/or passport.
Sad state of affairs and a direct blame for it is on the Federal Government, local supporters of illegal aliens, and companies who hire them, that the Drivers License is no longer “good enough” because of the volume of fakes out there.
If your own Secretary of State – who has been up there in Topeka running the voter registration/election oversight show ever since Bill Graves became governor – can’t prove that voter fraud occurs, then “Where’s the Beef?”
Apophis
Explain, if you can, what is so diffucult about showing a birth certificate or a photo ID to register or vote?
You do have those two items, don’t you?
“Shall we go back to look at Florida in the 2000 “election”?”
Can’t believe you are using what you view as a “stolen election” and election fraud, to support your case against requiring ID to vote! You know how inconsistent that is. You bitch about the 2000 election, but want to keep that level of election proces intact?
Kelly,
If there is no probelms then there should be no opposition to the requirements of proof of ID to vote. IF there are problems and it helps out your side, well, that would be the only reason to oppose this bill, to allow the fraud to benefit your party, that is opposed to insuring integrity to the system.
Actually, yes I do have both a DL and BC. That’s not even the issue here. What is at stake is the right-wing fear that might lose control of the state legislature with the shifting populations in this state.
Your battle cry is obviously: “Fear the Hispanic MENANCE!!!!!!!!!”
Without absolute PROOF of voter fraud, this smacks of sheer and simple RACISM.
Ah, the race card.
No, the history of requiring proof goes back long in the history of Kansas.
Since those times at the beginnings of Kansas, when Ruffians from Missouri came across the border voted in several elections as different people the people of Kansas knew there was a problem.
The person at the Poll station doesn’t know if you are John Smith at one address and might be the John Smith and another address or even a third or fourth address.
A photo ID would resolve this problem.
No Apophis, this is not racism, it’s about protecting our very valuable vote from those who would abuse the privilege.
It IS about racism………Florida/2000 should have taught even you repugs THAT lesson.
Color it with all of the rhetoric you like, it is still RACISM.
PS………..I am CAUCASIAN.
This Libertarian supports the concept that you should have to prove who you are before you vote. Elections must have a minimum level of integrity.
The idea that those who will not show ID to vote will be disenfranchised is silly. If you are not going make an effort to show some kind of ID you are likely not going to actually look at the issues/candidates in the election. If these things are ‘too hard’ for you then please, stay home and let the grown-ups take care of it.
Apophis
I repeat my question from 7:48 post.
Explain, if you can, what is so diffucult about showing a birth certificate or a photo ID to register or vote?
Make no mistake about this- it is a right wing attempt to disenfranchise the poor, the elderly and the marginal and it must be stopped. They tried that same crap here in Georgia and we Democrats went to Federal Court and got it tossed. They wanted a valid state issued ID card to vote (where as before you could use any ID including an expired one). The problem is that, in the city of Atlanta there is not ONE single driver service office where you can get an ID or renew one. All the offices are in suburbs and, for a person in Atlanta, would require 2 buses and a subway ride to reach. Now imagine that you have an elderly lady in an elderly high rise. She never renewed her license because she doesn’t drive anymore. And you are going to make her get on a MARTA bus, ride downtown, get on the subway, ride to the end of the line and then get on a CCT bus to the drivers license place in Cobb County, stand in line 3 hours and pay $8 for an ID just to vote??? The courts rightly tossed it out and if the GOP creeps try that in Kansas, good people should go to court the minute it is signed!
What is peculiar, when I was overseas and wanted to apply for an absentee ballot, I had to show my Military ID and the voting officer had to confirm my entry matched the print out from Military Personnel records to show I was who I said I was.
Why the double standard here?
What are people afraid of to confirm their identity?
Are you hiding something?:)
Making it harder to vote is ridiculous. Making fraud difficult or impossible should be the goal, but not at the expense of easy voting.
Quite a lot of political basketball between both sides, but they miss the point: Voting is NOT a political football and never should be. This is something both sides need to work out, but I suspect that with todays climate, the fringe element will use it in attempts to make the other side look bad. One word: STUPID.
People died so we can vote. Are you all going to bring up their political leanings and say it wasn’t worth it? Because that’s what I’m reading here. Do something different and start an intelligent dialog about the problems. Bashing each other, as is going on here, does nothing more than show people how ignorant you are.
Think about it……….if a person is compelled to have a photo ID or Birth Certificate, that would entail a cost to some individuals.
Doesn’t that smack of a “poll tax”, incurring a cost to allow an individual to vote?
There is no reason in this age of biometrics to ever have to show ID for much of anything. They fingerprint you here when you get your drives license the first time. When mine was stolen, I simply went into the DL office and got another one using only my fingerprint and the photo on file. I did not have to show any other ID at all. Why couldn’t they simply use the same system to vote. Verfiy citizenship and ID only once and use fingerprint technology each time thereafter. I would not have a problem with that. I do have a problem with telling an 80 year old lady that she has to go get a state ID to vote.
“Color it with all of the rhetoric you like, it is still RACISM.”
No it is not. It is about EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN’S VOTE not being watered down with the dead and illegal aliens. There are 20+ million in these United States, and you don’t think they vote???? They have a march in the street demanding the right to vote, and you don’t think they are trying? ALL the while waving a Mexican Flag!!!!!!
You Apophis are in the minority, as in 80%-90% of the population is SICK AND TIRED OF ILLEGALS AND ILLEGAL ALIENS and all the TROUBLE THEY CAUSE!!
It is over! ANd the American Citizens in BOTH PARTIES are sick of it. At 80%-90% polling numbers, consistently!
That is why these measures are going forward, the “people” want it and are demanding it. Most politicians do not want to step in this at all, and they are being forced to.
Why do you think that the federal immigration bills are not going anywhere? The voters are opposed to it, even if the elected representatives (of both parties) want to court that 20+ millin voters!
This is about integrity in the elections, and opposing it is opposing fair elections.
I have exposed Tyler Durden for what he is…….an anti-Hispanic Racist.
Apophis
“poll tax”? How do you function in todays society without a photo ID? I could be wrong but I believe you can get a state ID card for no cost at the drivers licence office.
As for the birth certificate, like I said up top, I’ve needed one each time I’ve changed jobs, since 1989, 4 times actually.
Your POLL TAX!!!! arguement is BS and you know it. If you really cared about the integrity of the system you’d be demanding it.
Aad Apophis is what we have in our school system as a teacher.
No wonder…
Apophis
What is racist about expecting someone to follow the laws of this country?
RACISM, POLL TAXES, Ohh Myyyyy.
Your Talking Points arguements are BS and you know it.
Scares you doesn’t it Repug?
The thought that are children might actually grow up to be critical thinkers rather than mindless repug apologists scares you I see.
Evidently Apophis and Kev never have had to go into a secure facility. First off, a military member gets a security clearance that is general in nature. He/she receives a military ID card.
You apply for a Secure facility badge which must be worn, this takes a few months.
Once you get inside the facility, you give up your Secure Facility Badge and get an internal security badge for a specific area. You cannot get an area wide badge for all sections of the facility.
Even after you get the interior security badge, you are required to stay in that area only, you cannot leave it without an escort.
You can still be challenged at anytime in the facility, wearing a badge or not. The Security Policeman will study the badge on both sides to make sure it is you on the badge and the badge is legit.
By the way, your car must also be registered with a sticker before you can even enter the lot to get into the secure facility.
So, how about it, stop your whining and let’s show some proper ID so we can have honest voting procedures.
No Apophis, it disturbs me that a person such as yourself is a teacher and continues to disrespect others like me by call them names “repug.”
You can’t write here in a civil, adult manner, so I am highly suspect how you interact with young students.
………..and what exactly does this have to do with denying citizens the right to vote?
Repug goes off on another tangent!
It shows responsibility and accountability where responsibility and accountability is needed.
I see the “poll tax” issue and it plays to Republican interests. Still, We need some way of assuring that people who’re voting are qualified to vote. A photo drivers license or a state-issued photo ID should do it. I think that’ll be precieved as a hurdle to poor and disabled people, but life is full of hassles. If you can’t afford or be bothered to get downtown and get an ID, you’re probably not the kind of person who votes anyway.
To place more restrictions on voters is wrong. The right wing conservatives in the Kansas Legislature have very limited intrest in passing laws that are good for all Kansans. Anti-abortion, anti-gambling, anti-gays, anti-mexicans, anti-evolution, anti-courts, pro-death penalty, pro-guns, pro-hate. Ah, yes; there’s nothing wrong with Kansas.
So……….now there is a “test” for voting.
Only the citizens who can overcome “hurdles” have the right to vote?
Apophis
And shouldnt you have to prove that you are a citizen to vote? Shouldnt you have to prove who you are?
If illegal immigrants were percieved to be likely to vote for Republicans over Democrats you’d be demanding DNA tests to vote.
So, it’s now constitutional to mandate proof of your citizenship?
This isn’t about which party your perceived “illegal menace” might vote, it’s about disenfranchising people who cannot burden the cost of the documentation process. Cost is defined as in actual cash value or time to secure your required documentation. Time away from work is obviously lost wages.
What if a waiver is applied for the cost of the photo ID for certain income or age groups?
All they have to do is bring a birth certificate or passport.
Would that be satisfactory?
“So, it’s now constitutional to mandate proof of your citizenship?”To vote in a Presidential election? YES! ONLY Citizens can vote, those that are trying to vote illegally AND THOSE THAT SUPPORT ILLEGALS VOTING are violating the constitution. Not those that propose this bill.
“Repug goes off on another tangent!”
How about your tangential spinning there Apophis? You can’t stay on target either, you have to play the “racist” card on the first post! You are a sorry POS and if you are a teacher, you should quit!
“If illegal immigrants were percieved to be likely to vote for Republicans over Democrats you’d be demanding DNA tests to vote.”
EXACTLY!!!
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”
“it’s about disenfranchising people who cannot burden the cost of the documentation process.”
It is $21. And you need that for virtually everything anyway. How does the poor and downtrodden cash their welfare checks, apply for medicaid? They need the ID. On the other issue of refusal of state benefits to illegals there seems to be a problem that they need an ID to get these services is the voice of opposition to the bill, but here to vote it is not needed?
That is talking out both sides of your rear end!
“Time away from work is obviously lost wages.”
So well paid workers are disporportionately punished for voting, that your argument there Apophis? The poor gets if for less sacrafice, and the well paid whom are working are punished for working and making money.
This has to be the silliest argument yet. Show a photo ID and vote. The end.
Voting needs to be secure and you need to be an American to vote in American elections. I don’t see the problem with proving who you are and eligibility to vote. As has been stated, you need ID to cash a check. What’s the problem?
Well, Tyler Durden, thank you for the compliment. I love being referred to as a POS. Why not come right out and type “PIECE OF SHIT”? What they be against your holier than thou, right-wing creed? Yes, I am a teacher and damned proud of it. Can’t you handle that today’s educators refuse to fill our student’s heads with your right-wing, hate filled garbage?
Show me absolute proof there is a REAL problem with voter fraud and I’ll look at the cause differently. Until then, you’re just another right-winger who is trying to march this great country down the road toward a fascist theocracy.
typo:
Would that be against your holier than thou, right-wing creed?
……..much multi-tasking!
“trying to march this great country down the road toward a fascist theocracy.”
You, sir, are an idiot.
Hey Apophis, let’s do away with Teacher ID’s in school, that way anyone can just walk in at any time. It is a public facility after all.
Unfortunately, teachers are not required to wear ID’s. I do wear mine however. It is a public facility, yes, but there are legitimate security issues that cannot allow anyone who walks in off the streets entry. You’re stretching it quite thin tying this to requiring an ID for a CITIZEN to vote. But, that’s the repug way.
I am absolutely in favor of requiring a photo ID. What I am less sure of is how to assure that is enough. After all, if I can get a drivers license without proper documentation is that enough?
I think in a way we are caught in a circle. My DL is what I use when I get it renewed. Some of us have additional ids such as passports and birth certificates; however some (especially older citizens) might not.
I remember back when they first came out with the I-9 for employment. I did not posess the proper documents. My SS card had long sense self-destructed although I did know the number. Of course, with that an employer can readily verify that SOMEBODY with that number has been in the work force for half a century – but how to tie that to me?
So, I am not certain just how we accomplish our objectives of (a) making sure ONLY citizens vote and (b) making it ‘reasonably easy’ for citizens to do so.
That said, I would call for at least a Drivers License or DMV issued photo ID.
If the illegals have forged ‘documents’ one could assume that those documents include birth certificates.
Finger print id and verification, that’s the ticket.
Apo writes:
” That’s not even the issue here. What is at stake is the right-wing fear that might lose control of the state legislature with the shifting populations in this state.
Your battle cry is obviously: “Fear the Hispanic MENANCE!!!!!!!!!”"———-
I don’t know what you’ve been reading – but it didn’t have any basis in fact.
First, no one who is illegal should vote. That’s a given.
Second, were illegal aliens TO VOTE – they would almost certainly vote Social Conservative, due to their Catholic heritage and Pro-Life stance. For Catholics, it’s a qualifying issue.
That shoots your theory full of holes.
The reason is it a good idea to provide an ID is to protect the integrity of the system.
Period.
No one has yet stated a case on this blog (OMG, could it be reasonable to ask for proof?) for proving that voter fraud goes on in this state. The argument boils down to something like, “Let’s make it more difficult for citizen’s to exercise their constitutional right to vote by making them pay a fee for having a photo ID, because MAYBE there is a potential for fraud.” People have to register to vote, of course, so there IS opportunity for government officials to doublecheck the representations on the form. If state government doesn’t do that, or doesn’t have a protocol for checking voter rolls against death certificates filed with the Vital Statistics office, then perhaps there truly needs to be some officially approved procedure for regularly removing deceased citizen’s names from the voter rolls. But no suggestion like this is being made . . . no one yet today since Ken’s posting very early wants to talk about OTHER ways to make it easier for citizens to vote . . . gosh, I wonder why? Surely there could be some middle ground that real patriots could agree upon to update the validity of the voter rolls while also making it easier to exercise the right to vote without giving to a poll clerk the power to say, “Oh, I don’t think that photo really looks enough like you for me to allow you to vote.” We cannot permit weary, perhaps partisan-motivated, autocratic poll workers to be the determiners of who gets to vote and who doesn’t.
………you really think the majority of hispanics that reach American citizenship are going to vote “social conservative”?
You might want to check the voting statistics of some place, like maybe the Rio Grande Valley in Texas?
well stated kelly……..
kelly – a question: I know I pay a fee for my drivers license; that is part of the system. I also know the DL department issues ‘non-DL’ IDs. My question: do they charge anything for them?
For a lot of reasons (cashing checks for example) people need such ID. Perhaps we should be looking at finding ways to facilitate getting them.
There is a charge for EVERYTHING!
“No one has yet stated a case on this blog (OMG, could it be reasonable to ask for proof?) for proving that voter fraud goes on in this state.”
Again, There should be no oposition to it then, if it is not ocurring. The only reason to oppose this bill is to assist those that have no legal right to vote to cast a vote. Opposing this bill is supporting fraud in elections. Simple as that!
No one has been able to pin down just how these illegals would vote, HOWEVER the VERY FACT WE ARE CONSIDERING THAT, should motivate ALL CITIZENS to require citizenship proof in order to vote. Just the mere discussion of who the illegals would vote for justifies this bill.
Ben, the Kansas ID costs $21. I would be all for a VERIFIED FREE ID to those that are financially unable to get one, IF it is verified and the SSN’s checked.
Apophis – you obviously haven’t been in contact with today’s typical Mexican immigrant, legal, or otherwise.
I would be willing to bet that at least 85% are Catholic.
Show me staunch Catholics that vote for the pro-abort Party and I’ll take back my assessment, but right now….I’m not buying what you’re selling.
The reason we need ID – is to maintain integrity.
Period.
It’s a little strange that Democrats are the ones wanting to keep us from implementing security measures.
I would ALSO be willing to bet MORE Democrats (although they no longer can vote) sit in our prisons than do GOP’ers.
GSheridan wishes for a return to voting as “our Founders intended”?
THAT would allow ONLY land owning white males to vote.
I believe she meets only two of those criteria.
It should be easier to vote not harder.
Ben – You don’t pay a fee in order to exercise your constitutional right to free speech, freedom of religion, or self-incrimination, do you? I think voters should be required to register to vote. That is the time to mandate proof of identity.
GSheridan wishes for a return to voting as “our Founders intended”?
THAT would allow ONLY land owning white males to vote.
I believe she meets only two of those criteria.
It should be easier to vote not harder.
Posted by: J R | March 24, 2007 at 11:11 AM
Why do you ask J R? Would that leave you out of the voting process? :)
There you r-wingers again……tying everything to the LEGAL procedure of abortion. I know many Catholics, many. The vast majority of them believe in a woman’s right to make a LEGAL choice.
It’s just more wishful r-wing thinking GSheridan!
Do you have any DATA that supports that assertion about “more Dems in prison than Repugs”?
More GSheridan shilling!
I don’t own amy land JM. Should that disqualify me from voting?
You’re the one that brought up the point J R.
I thought you would like the opportunity to explain your stance on what constitutes fair and equitable in the voting process.
Whether it be an existing standard that qualifies one to vote in a U.S. or Local election. And what you think should qualify as a verification to mark that quality other than the fact one is occupying a portion of square footage on the spot he stands.
Are you saying that standing, sitting, walking or crawling are the only standards we have to verify someone is an eligible voter?
What exactly in your mind qualifies one to vote as a legal citizen in good standing?
Now Repug is shilling!
Hey JM you are the one about establishing standards to vote. I’ll just let you expand on that. Who qualifies?
“Hey JM you are the one about establishing standards to vote.”
GUYS! In Presidential Elections ONLY CITIZENS can vote. Don’t you think that if the constitution stated that it would then allow something reasonable to “validate” that citizenship.
Again, why anyone is fighting this bill and opposing having people identify themselves to vote mystifies me.
You opposing this are worried about “disenfranchisment” fo those that do not have an ID.
However, YOU SAY NOTHING about the millions of voters who will be “disenfranchised” by having their vote canceled by a non legal voter. THAT is also “Disenfranchisment”.
Funny how those of you who use the disenfranchisment argement do not go further into just what “disenfranchisment” is and all it entails.
http://www.maldef.org/pdf/LatinoVotingReport.pdf
Funny how the Latino and hispanic community is pushing for felons to have the right to vote, even though it is a “LEGAL DISENFRANCHISMENT” fo a convicted felon.
Look at the felon numbers in this demographic. Funny!
Apop – of course I don’t have data, hence the reason I worded it, “I would be willing to bet….”
Do YOU have data denouncing my theory?
I didn’t think so.
kelly – I have to disagree with you. Consider: I show up at your voting place (or advance vote) bright and early election day. “Hi, I’m kelly and am here to vote.” So, they let me vote and cross your name off the list for the day. Then, later on, you show up. “Sorry, you already voted.” Now what? That is why I favor picture ID of some sort; and why I would like to focus on making that work.
JR – okay, restricting votes to only white landowners is taking our Founders (who had their reasons) too literally.
But, it DOES show that they intended the folks who had an active INTEREST in the finances of this country to be the represented.
Remember – for a time – only the wealthy were taxed.
Once others began being taxed – they, too, deserved representation.
HOwever, they did NOT set this up as a Democracy – remember that. And there’s a REAL good reason for that.
REad this carefully – Alexander Alexander Tyler said it PERFECTLY. This is why we MUST have restrictions on voting.
[quote]“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:
1. From bondage to spiritual faith.2. From spiritual faith to great courage.3. From courage to liberty.4. From liberty to abundance.5. From abundance to selfishness.6. From selfishness to complacency.7. From complacency to apathy.8. From apathy to dependency.9. From dependency back again into bondage. “[end quote]
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury.”
GREAT QUOTE!!!!!!!!
Our dysfunctional, corporate-owned conglomerate media has done much more damage to our democracy than voter fraud.
If citizens are not accurately informed, they can’t make the correct choices.
Dictators use state-controlled media to help maintain their control.
GSheridan,
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp“The quote from “Alexander Tyler” is very likely fictitious.”
“Dictators use state-controlled media to help maintain their control.”
ANd “Our dysfunctional, corporate-owned conglomerate media has done much more damage to our democracy than voter fraud.”
Would that be like the Soros media machine and the entire left leaning MSMedia? They are then the defacto “dictators” in your proposal?
I think birth certificates are not really a reliable source of ID without research being involved, the real problem of IDs is getting verification.I have no problem with showing IDs to be able to vote, I understand that voting is my choice, I can vote if I want to or not vote any at all if I want to, my choice.
GSheridan, your 12:10 pm post is scary.
Ben – you’re a smart guy, so I can’t help but wonder what is your evidence that the scenario you hypothsized is really happening? If this entire issue is a parade of imaginary horrors, then why do we as scientists and rational citizens pander or capitulate to it? The proposed cure is not the answer to better security at the polls.
“The proposed cure is not the answer to better security at the polls.”
In your opinion there Kelley. That is not an absolute, nor is it even reasonable.
It is easy to tell who the xenophobic Republicans are here.
Think about it! Doesn’t a person who lives here and has established residence here have a right to representation?
The Democrats seem to have done everything possible to represent everyone. Throw it out there and let people voice their opinion.
The Republicons? Hell no! Let’s see…I have registered to vote and I have a voter ID card issued from the county. When I go vote the poll workers check my name off a list to eliminate me from voting twice. Now I have to show a picture ID. I am OK with that, it keeps someone from coming in to vote for me.
But a birth certificate or passport to register? How about DNA test and fingerprint on the card? Why not a chip in the hand? Why should newcomers into the state of Kansas have a right to vote anyway? They don’t know the good old boy system and the way we do things around here! They shouldn’t have a voice. They haven’t earned the right and proven that they will vote the way we like!
It is the only way to keep our system fair! Remember Florida in 2000? What would the election have been like if we had let those 50,000+ convicted felons vote that were eliminated from the voter roles? I mean, if they wanted to vote they should have stayed in the states that restored their rights after they got out of prison! What right should they have to think they could have a voice in our system?
Or those silly Democrats in Texas a few years ago. Didn’t they know we were in power so we could draw the district lines to suit ourselves? Let them run off to New Mexico. We have to protect our own, don’t we?
And how about those idiots in Sedgwick County, Kansas that thought they should have a voice in putting a casino in Wichita? Who knows, they might have thought it would be a good idea. But we stopped that at the County Commissioners level. We ain’t going to let the ignorant masses decide what’s good for them. We will tell them what’s right.
But just to make sure everyone knows we are fair and honest, if they think they meet the requirements to get a ballot we will give them a provisional one. If the election doesn’t turn out the way we want it then we can count the provisional ballots. After all, a lot of mistakes can be made in hand counting ballots. And a bunch of them can be thrown out or disallowed because of misspellings, misplaced periods, or, hell, even just plain lost!
After all, if we can certify a person to run for city council but pull his certification after he does really well in the primary we can do anything we want! We can even decide that people don’t even live here!
And then we wonder why so many voters are apathetic and don’t bother to go to the polling places.
kelly – I don’t really have any reason to think it is happening – that is only a hypothetical. My thing is more in the line of prevention.
In some ways this is not unlike the fact that I want a paper trail for ballots instead of relying solely on electrons. I don’t KNOW that shenanigans have taken place with electronic machines; I just want to be real sure it is not.
That would be the dysfunctional corporate media that ran a character assassination on Al Gore, using falsehoods and misquotes. ‘Love Story’, farm chores, et al.
That nit-picked, assisted by the RNC, every error Gore made, while mostly ignoring Bush’s larger # of errors.
That attacked Gore for wearing different clothes at different events, when Bush did the same thing.
That ignored how Gore/Bush differed on important issues, and instead focused on trivia, like the color and how many buttons Gore’s suit had.
That ignored Bush taking credit for policies in TX that were started by others earlier, and his failures, like in air pollution, CHIP’s, etc.
And many more…
Ben – You are not wrong to want a secure and accurate voting procedure. The issue is how best to accomplish that goal. I worked with the Sedg. Cty. Voter Coalition to try to help Election Commissioner Bill Gale provide to citizens in this community exactly such a system. I am not confident that Gale is where he needs to be yet, but I hope I am providing constructive advice. Let us all try to provide constructive advice, and not pander to the fear/hate mongers.
cosmos……the bush apologists will NEVER admit to anything wrong their GOD has ever done!
On that we agree kelly, and I feel confident that Bill Gale will do everything he can to accomplish it. When we have good people working on the issue (like you and Bill) I believe it can be done.
One reason I automatically hand them my DL is so I don’t have to deal with spelling my name, address, etc. This is not a problem when I vote at my regular precinct (they all know me there) but in advance voting.
A suggestion you might bring up: with today’s technology why not allow me to vote anywhere in Sedg Cty on election day? Just match me to my precinct and bring up the appropriate ballot. That is how they do advance. That would allow people to vote at lunch time near where they work.
Good grief. What is so hard about getting a photo ID? Nothing, if you are legal. If you can’t figure it out, I don’t want to encourage you to vote.
As a matter of fact, I don’t want to encourage everyone who is eligible to vote. I want those with a brain who pay attention to issues to vote. If you don’t, stay home, because you do more harm than good.
I am guessing that most of the folks on here belong to the middle or upper income levels, after all we all have computers. We take it for granted that we have ids and getting to the polls is an matter of just figuring out when we are going to squeeze it into our busy days. We also probably have at least two or even more photo ids available to us.
I was talking to someone the other day and was reminded that not everyone has it as good. They were at Hunter Health Clinic, after being told to come in, they were told there was no doctor that day. They got up to leave, but most of others stayed there. I asked why. He told me that many of them had either bummed a ride and would have to wait until their ride came back or they came on the bus, so they would wait where it was warm before catching the bus. He said some were probably trying to figure out where they would get the gas money to come back another day.
There are a growing number of people, many working low wage jobs who live in a cash only world. They have to plan their budgets very carefully. They have to pay the rent, utilities and gas or bus fare to get to work. After that they look at how much they have for food, clothing (kids grow)and medicine. Any unexpected expense has to come from one of those buckets.
My point is if we are going to make American Citizens show a goverment photo id, without it being a poll tax, we should make it something everyone can get. For some that will mean free and have provided transportation.
Cheri – I agree 100%. The drivers license departmenbt should not charge for the non-DL id. It might make sense to have additional locations since you don’t need to take a driving test etc.
I don’t recall my parents or grandparents asking for free and provided transportation.
If they needed food, they grew it or raised it, traded for it or worked for it.
If they needed clothes they made them, bought second hand or hand me downs.
Something they liked they couldn’t afford, didn’t get a loan, they did without.
I guess the cradle to grave “gimme” generation is just too built in for my tastes.
Bet they voted straigt Republican too! LOL.
My parents did, but my Grandparents were FDR Democrats.
If politicians like Gale come forth with legitimate proof of voter fraud, then the Kansas Legislature will have an issue to address based on the evidence at such time. Until then, state Sen. Huelskamp and his trumped up, witch’s brew of a proposal can expect to be noisily denounced.
“If politicians like Gale come forth with legitimate proof of voter fraud, then the Kansas Legislature will have an issue to address based on the evidence at such time.”
Again if there is no proof of fraud then there is no reqason not to support this issue. It is about keeping the voting integrity clean. Far from where it is now. Only those that are in a party that have dead people vote, have people vote multiple times, or have illegal aliens voting for their party have anything to worry about with this bill.
Plain and simple, it is about making sure LEGAL voters votes take precidence over ILLEGALLY Cast ballots.
Republican your Grandparents didn’t have to show a photo id to vote either. People can’t grow them and as to making them, they could, but that would open a whole new can of worms.
This sounds like the “School teachers can’t show porn” bill, a bill without a cause. But if you’re not for the bill, you’re for porn. If you’re not for cumbersome voting certification requirements, then you must support fraudulent voting.
Let’s concentrate on making sure the electronic voting system we have in place can’t be manipulated.
No Cheri they didn’t. But they would never used an excuse about a photoID costing too much.
I can’t believe that people in this day and age don’t have an ID to show and have no expectations they would have to show one.
(shakes head)
Of all the arguments pro and con about this, I would have thought someone here would have understood what this bill is all about!
Come on, people, THINK! When do people need to register to vote?
This is about destroying voter registration drives in primarily and middle class areas! Younger people, poor people, and people who rent instead of own their houses move far more often than those who are at the upper part of the economy and live in a well established neighborhood. And they have to register after they have moved! Now they will have to dig out the birth certificate or passport (which costs almost $100 now) to GO TO A SPECIFIC PLACE to register. No longer could anyone with the Welcome Wagon or Neighborhood Watch come down with a gift package and a voter registration package. It is not specific in the bill that has been presented but I am sure they will not let just anyone collect voter registration cards….THEY HAVE TO PRESENT THE RIGHT DOCUMENTS TO THE RIGHT GOVERNMENT PERSON!
This bill’s intent is to limit the number of people most likely to vote against those in power from going to the polls. As such, it is an abuse of power by elected officials.
If this passes, I am sure there will be a bill to follow that would disallow early voting in community halls and union halls. Everyone would have to face the line at the precinct. And most people know that the people on the lower end of the economic scale who tend to vote democratic also are FAR more likely to have a second shift/odd shift job than the 9 to 5 banker. Yes, I know the polls are open 7 AM to 7 PM. But have you ever gotten off work at midnight? After getting up and doing housework from 8:30 or 9:00 in the morning until noon, you don’t have time to face a long line at the precinct and make it to work on time!
The effect on voter registration won’t have any effect on races that are won by 15 or 20 percentage points. But the state representatives race in my district was decided by 24 votes! Had this law been in effect last year it is a sure bet that the outcome would have been different.
People in power to make laws, tend to make laws that’ll keep them in power. DeLay was the poster boy for that.
First they restricted the number of places to vote, now they’re trying to restrict the number of people who vote. Republican scoundrels.
RustyFord:
You and several others on this page illustrated my initial point: Republicans are putting hoops in the system for people to jump through to slow down the registration process and protect their advantage. You can, and should, talk forever about the ways in which this new system works to the advantage of the ever so saintly, “We just want to protect the integrity of the process” GOP.
I am not much of a research man myself (too lazy), but as a guy who thinks things up from time to time, I was wondering earlier in the week if His Holiness Huelskamp also handles gerrymandering activities for the Republicans.
Just a little something that passed through my mind. Happy Sunday!
RustyFord you are insane!
“This is about destroying voter registration drives in primarily and middle class areas!”
NO! This is about 80-90% of the US Population SICK AND TIRED OF ILLEGAL ALIENS!!!! YOu place any restriction at the state of city level on illegal aliens ANYWHERE IN THIS COUNTRY and it passes!!
THAT is what this is about! The “people” of the United States are tired of illegal aliens and illegal immigration. THAT IS WHY THESE LAWS are being PROPOSED and PASSED in almost every jurisdiction in the United States.
IT IS OVER! Supporting illegal aliens and illegal immigration is no longer “the will of the people” is no longer popular. On top of all that IT IS ILLEGAL!!! We have laws on the books to rectify this situation.
Leave the laws as they are, and ENFORCE THEM and ALL THIS GOES AWAY!!!!
“”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"”"
“I am not much of a research man myself (too lazy), but as a guy who thinks things up from time to time,”
NO KIDDING TRT!
Very enlightening, Mr. Durden. Thanks so much for telling us what this is really about.
As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with the Republican Party on this one. If you have to have 2 forms of identification (federal requirements for I-9 form to prove legal status) just to get a job, then you should provide proof of eligibility to vote.
When election season rolls around and recently relocated Kansas citizens are hunting around for birth certificates and trying to contact the state for a copy to be delivered in a timely manner for registration, we will see who was smart about this.
When election season rolls around and recently relocated Kansas citizens are hunting around for birth certificates and trying to contact the state for a copy to be delivered in a timely manner for registration, we will see who was smart about this.Correct me (I am sure somebody will) if I am wrong, the law also includes a driver’s license or State ID card.
When election season rolls around and recently relocated Kansas citizens are hunting around for birth certificates and trying to contact the state for a copy to be delivered in a timely manner for registration, we will see who was smart about this.Correct me (I am sure somebody will) if I am wrong, the law also includes a driver’s license or State ID card.
Graywolf,
Did you read any text?
Senatus, Domus Procerum:
et nunc et semper…
non decipitur qui scit se decipi.
hic funis nihil attraxit.