“American conservatism is a house divided against itself,” wrote Washington Post columnist Harold Meyerson. “It applauds the radicalism of the economic changes of the past four decades — the dismantling, say, of the American steel industry (and the job and income security that it once provided) in the cause of greater efficiency. It decries the decline of social and familial stability over that time — the traditional, married working-class families, say, that once filled all those churches in the hills and hollows in what is now the smaller, post-working-class Pittsburgh.
“Problem is, disperse a vibrant working-class community in America and you disperse the vibrant working-class family.
“Which is how American conservatism became the primary author of the very social disorder that it routinely rails against, and that Republicans have the gall to run against.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- littlejohn on Let immigrants run
- writerdog on Minority status in Senate; majority approval at home
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/23
- Monkeyhawk on Let immigrants run
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/23
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/23
- writerdog on Let immigrants run
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Let immigrants run
- Heckler on Open thread 11/23
52 Comments
Reagan started the war on the Middle Class and it’s been going on in the Republican party since. Their efforts to destroy unions and bring in cheap illegal immigrant labor while offering taxpayer money to move companies overseas works to destroy the Middle Class. Wichita wants a piss poor economy, that’s why they keep on electing Tiahrt and Brownback.
ROFLMAO Phillip!
Harold Meyerson whole piece ended in a concluding paragraph knocking Guiliani about a non-attendance to an event for his son. Is that what they teach in Journalism these days? Start a new subject in the concluding paragraph?
I guess the “Cut and Paste” Journalists at the Washington Post are feeling their oats. Were the Editors asleep on the job?
As far as the article, that is one of the most disjointed piece of Journalism I’ve seen in a long time. I’ve seen more restraint from a superball dropped from a ten story building.
If Harold Meyerson was looking for the “Great Satan” in the Conservative Party, he needs to work on his composition skills first. After he exorcises himself of all of those anti-journalistic demons, then maybe he can offer a piece that makes sense.
Of course the Liberals will like the article as it offers a totally disjointed conspiracy. ROFL!
Boy have I got something to say…But it will have to wait, time to go back to work!To be continued….P.S. may sure to have your reading glasses handy.
Huh?As a conservative, I strongly support domestic steel production.Al Gore and enviro-nut liberals had something to do with manufacturing job losses, don’t you think?By the way, A WSU economics guru is out giving talks to financial people, telling us that manufacturing jobs, in total, are NOT declining, they are just not held in the same percentages as 10,20 and 30 years ago.Makes sense.If total manufacturing jobs stayed at the same number, service and government and medical jobs, by rising in numbers, would reduce the percentages, correct?
Anyway, back to the disjointed, illogical article in question—
WHAT CONSERVATIVE APPLAUDS THE LOSS OF JOBS IN THE STEEL INDUSTRY?
If NAFTA is the “cause” — that legislation was supported by the Clintons and many other Democrats. If you dont like NAFTA, tell me what Wichita aircraft production would look like in a trade war, would you?
Again, environmental rules are stricter in the USA than in other countries, so this has to be taken into account.
Furthermore, unreasonable labor union demands priced many old “smokestack” industries out of business. (much to the delight of Al “$1200 a month electric bill” Gore.)
The radical union members on this Blog undoubtably purchase products on line, rather than go to local retailers. They also look at price when buying insurance or cars or any number of other products. Very few of you Union die-hards look for the “Union Label” before you buy.
Many of the radical leftists on this Blog drive foreign vehicles. (NOT ME BY THE WAY, currently I drive a Chevy, before that, a Ford, before that, another Chevy.)
I support the free market. Those hypocritical labor union nuts that want THEIR job protected, but buy foreign cars and non-union products for themselves, are a joke. Most people see through them.
However, I support the right of hypocrits to buy whatever they want, just dont blame conservatives for the consequences, ok?
You liberals are really nuts on this one:You pass tough environmental rules that other countries dont follow, you support radical union demands that price domestic products out of the market, then you FALSELY claim that Conservatives are encouraging “outsourcing” of “your” coveted manufacturing jobs through the tax code?
If higher costs in the form of wages and benefits and regulations of all sort dont have any impact on smokestack industry jobs, in your mind, then how can any arcane tax law have any impact?
There is no law that encourages outsourcing of US jobs. This is Urban Legend.The law that Doug speaks of is most probably a matter of international treaty, supported by Democrats and Republicans alike.
Sure, Phillip, to some extent we ALWAYS cause what we hate, but that isn’t limited to Conservatives, by any means.
BTW – long before the 60’s, the seeds of family destruction were sowed – in the Flapper Era.
I’m willing to say that the traditional family, which is probably the best(on average) for raising kids, has also become an antiquated institution in our society. The very restrictions placed upon this union have caused others to pull away from it.
Things change and society needs to keep up. Take gay marriage, for instance, (can’t believe I’m actually bringing this up,) if society would provide equal financial rights, rights to intestate succession, and rights to adopt, there might not be the ‘push’ for gays to seek validity in the word, ‘marriage.’
On the other hand, and I’m not going to mention names here, some gay folks we all know, present such a sharp-tongued approach to their cause, that they actually alienate people who might otherwise support them….
By the same token, the Unions, themselves, once a bastion of honorable power that sought safety for its workers, has morphed into a multi-billion dollar megalopoly that now works on a Pyramid effect for monetary gain, alienating folks along the way….and is currentlt watching the death throws of its efforts as more and more members voluntarily leave the fold.
So, yes, in that context, Conservatives have worked against their own desires by over-restricting the areas of society that they want to keep free from change. Somewhere, there HAS to be a happy medium.
On the flip side, Phillip is incorrect about the illegal alien situation. The vast amount of Conservatives would prefer the Southern border was CLOSED. Only those who hire illegal labor support the criminals who come here.
Some of the recent ‘quietness’ from Conservatives in power, doesn’t mean they are doing nothing, so much as it means they are implementing measures without all the brouhaha that caused massive protests last year. The size of some of the protests neared catastrophic levels, determined by street width, and the ability to dispatch law and peace-keeping persons should disorder erupt. There’s actually an entire science devoted to the study of that.
Anyway, sure, we’re all guilty of bringing about some of the very things we despise, due solely to the isolationism of our methods.
But, heck, it’s been that way since the beginning of time, and as long as people are passionate about a ’cause,’ we’ll likely continue to see it – from ALL parts of society.
GGay marriage is no threat to me.I just dont want the courts to enact it.I have gay clients in the insurance and investment business.JTWROS: Joint Tenants with rights of survivorship, along with a “living will” will give the gay couple virtually ALL the rights that married people have, save one:The “marital exclusion” in Estate Tax law.By the way, most conservatives want to eliminate the Death Tax.In other words, Conservatives would give gay couples a tax break they would not any other way, in the current climate!
That’s true, Econ, and needs to be said more often. Gay couples will benefit from this GOP-led legislation that otherwise would hinder them.
As an ex-broker, I agree with the “Joint Tenants with rights of survivorship,” as a saving grace for gay couples. Problem is – when taking title to property most people don’t understand the significance, and a lot of brokers don’t explain it throughly, they just ask, “how do you want to take title?” And in a recent situation, since the property was aquired BEFORE the couple became an ‘item,’ it didn’t even arise.
Just recently, I purchased a bank foreclosed house and then learned that I was going to be evicting a woman who had ‘lived with’ the owner for 20 years, never married, and when he died a few months ago, intestate, he also wrecked the only possession she had – her car. She had no credit in her name, and no bank would touch her when she wanted to purchase the home they lived in. She was not covered by any ‘common law’ directives and her fiance’ family inherited all his belongings. As a couple, they didn’t have Clue One as to what to do about security. Like most of us – she didn’t think it would happen to her.
Of course, she may STILL not be protected, because they CHOSE not to legally define their union.
One of my reasons for enacting ‘rights’ for gay couples has to do with the perception that gay men are promiscuous. If this is, indeed, a fact, encouraging commitment not only benefits them, but society, in general, as it helps curb the spread of sexually-transmitted diseases, such as AIDS. Just as in heterosexual unions, making it tougher for partners to bed-hop will help eliminate the spread of these viruses. Of course, in hetero unions, it also helps prevent unwanted pregnancies – the kind where the daddy takes off, hence it reduces the need for abortion and a number of other societal ills.
Anyway, my point is just that sometimes we all want something so badly that we tend to get angry and use tactics that backfire against us.
But – we ALL do that.
:)
The conservatives hate everything that is American. They wrap themselves in the flag and talk about “familiy values” while they do everything they can to destroy jobs, destroy unions and destroy social programs that help families. Give the conservatives a few more years and they will finish the destruction of America. Then they will probably follow Halliburton to Dubai.
Time to once again re-read Ayn Rand’s THE FOUNTAINHEAD to remember what conservatism is all about. Any Howard Roarks still out there? Or only Ellsworth Touheys?
Since the administration of Saint Ronald, the conservative movement has touted a return to family values, yet in the 25 years since, they have accomplished very little if anything to promote them.
Looks like the morning is off to an asinine start with things like:
“The conservatives hate everything that is American” What a totally ridiculous thing to say. Accusing a large number of citizens of being traitors is quite a statement..do you have ANYTHING to prove it? Of course not.
Here is one to ponder, Kev. Who is it that supports welfare and public assistance for all the illegals, thus encouraging more to come here? Here is a hint, it is NOT the conservative side.
“Anyway, my point is just that sometimes we all want something so badly that we tend to get angry and use tactics that backfire against us.
But – we ALL do that.”
I don’t do that. I would think that most of us don’t act on our thoughts of revenge – 6 year olds might. Gives me the impression that you throw a tantrum everytime you don’t get what you want.
Are you going ahead with evicting the woman?
Are gay men more promiscuous than straight men of similar ages? I think not
http://www.corporatepolicy.org/topics/Taxhavens.htm
here’s some of that non existent tax stuff
The Decline in U.S. Corporate Taxes and the Rise in Offshore Tax Haven Abuses
Although the corporate income tax rate is still 35 percent, in reality most corporations pay much less. Through the 1990s and even up until the third quarter of 2001, according to the Commerce Department, the effective tax burden for all U.S. companies, public and private, was around 30%. But from the fourth-quarter of 2001 onward, companies have paid out just 20% of their profits in taxes. For publicly traded companies only, the tax burden appears even lower.
The sharp decline in corporate taxes in recent years can be measured in a variety of ways. According to the Congressional Budget Office, between 2000 and 2003 overall corporate income taxes collected by the federal government dropped from $207 billion to $132 billion. Although the federal government reports that the number rose to $ 183.8 billion in 2004, that figure still represents just 9.6 percent of total federal revenues, down almost half-way from the 17 percent rate it stood at in 1970.
The corporate tax rate is also declining by comparison to the size of the economy (i.e. as a percentage of GDP). According to the Congressional Budget Office’s Historical Budget Data, corporate income taxes declined from 4.2 percent of the GDP in 1967 to 1.2 percent in 2003, rising only slightly to 1.6 percent in 2004.
Many large multinational corporations pay no taxes at all. According to the GAO more than 60% of U.S. controlled corporations with at least $250 million in assets (representing 93 percent of all corporate assets reported to the IRS) reported no federal tax liability each year between 1996 and 2000, while the economy boomed and corporate profits soared. 71% of foreign-based firms operating in the U.S. during that same period paid no U.S. income taxes. According to Citizens for Tax Justice, 82 of 275 top U.S. corporations paid zero taxes between 2001 and 2003, although they earned $102 billion in pre-tax profits. 46 companies with a combined profit of $42.6 billion paid no federal income taxes in 2003 alone. Instead they received rebates totaling $5.4 billion.
Offshore Shelter Abuses
The rise of corporate tax haven abuses has contributed significantly to the precipitous decline of corporate taxes raised by the U.S. government in recent years particularly when it comes to U.S. multinationals who are able to shift their pretax income offshore. Martin Sullivan, editor of Tax Notes, reports that U.S. Corporations shifted $75 billion of their taxable profits into tax havens in 2003, depriving the IRS of between $10 billion and $20 billion in expected tax revenues. Sullivan says “the figures provide just one more indication that the U.S. system of taxing international income is nearing a breakdown.” Sullivan, a former Treasury Department economist, based his study on Commerce Department data. (See “Economic Analysis: Profit Shift Out of U.S. Grows, Costing Treasury $10 Billion or More,” Tax Analysts, September 28, 2004)
Corporate Inversions: Moving the Headquarters Offshore
One of the simplest ways some corporations have reduced their taxes is by relocating their headquarters offshore on paper (a relatively simple transaction known as “corporate inversions”). This scam is expected to cost the U.S. $5 billion over the next decade, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation. By paying just $30,000 to establish a simple postal drop, for instance, Ingersoll-Rand expects to save $40 million per year by declaring itself headquartered in Bermuda. Dozens of companies have
Yes, Ken, I’m evicting the woman. I can’t afford to allow her to stay there, rent free, after all.
But, you seem to have misunderstood my post. I don’t mean acting on ‘revenge,’ I mean acting out of passion.
If we don’t have passion – we have a dull life to begin with. But that passion can color the choices we make in our quest for what we term ‘justice,’ or ‘integrity.’
Revenge comes later, as a result of our impassioned acts being rebuked. Compare it to the liberals who never wanted the Iraq war. They began with speaking out from the heart and demonstrations. When they were denied, the rhetoric became heated, and now, there is full-blown revenge against not only the current administration, but all Conservatives.
And at this stage – the name-calling barriers don’t seem to be coming down. In fact, if anything, the witch-hunt is increasing in fervor.
This is the way the Clinton/Monica snowball started rolling downhill. By the time it reached the bottom, it was a force to be reckoned with.
I’m just stating a fact of human nature here, if you’re somehow ‘above the fray,’ good for you.
Ken, you’re probably right that gay men of a similar age have no MORE promiscuous tendencies than straight men – however, gay men, being BOTH gay, AND male, one partner may be less likely to turn the other down for recreational sex, than a woman would be.
Add to that, the fact that AIDS travels MORE in gay male circles, than in straight hetero circles, and there is an added reason for motivating commitment among gay men.
Of course, if you have stats proving that assumption wrong – I’d be happy to take a look at them.
Well what do we have here?
Well we got Paul F Rosell on an anti union screed.
He didn’t mention how he sold out his union.
And is anyonoe surprised that GSHeridan would kick a widow out of her home?
Maybe there IS a war of CONSCIENCE among conservatives. That is why I got out 20 some years ago. They are about NOTHING but money and screwing each other over and under for it. I prefer being able to look myself in the mirror.
The conservative movement is utimately self defeating. The big fish eat or f*** the little fish until the little fish have enough and become Democrats. It may yet save America. Though the hour is late.
ROFLMAO – leave it to JR to term evicting a non-paying person in one’s property – ‘kicking out a widow.’ Such drama!
Let me ask you a question, JR, what SHOULD I do? Do you have the gonads to answer that? Or will you just stick your head in the sand because you feel trapped by your own agenda?
hahahahaha
BTW – your last paragraph describes what biological scientists call Natural Selection or Survival of the Fittest. The strong and motivated are the ones left standing.
And that’s the way it should be – if we are to remain strong as a society.
“Democratic leaders are stripping from a military spending bill for the war in Iraq a requirement that President Bush gain approval from Congress before moving against Iran.”
I thought you people were large and in charge. You can’t even get a minimum wage bill passed.—–
Oh yes conservatives want the illegal immigration, I think Rove said it best “I don’t want my 17-year-old son to have to pick tomatoes or make beds in Las Vegas.”
There’s those good ole conservative American values.
Khan if you can’t figure out the link between family values and Guiliani parading his mistress around town, you’re one blind ass bat.
Guiliani is hardly what one would consider a Conservative Republican. He is more like a left to moderate Democrat in his stances.
For instance, he has campaign several times as Pro Abortion Rights and Gay Rights. He is more like the Democrats Tax and Spend than giving tax breaks.
What Guiliani is, is a maverick in Republican politics. Some people love him, some people hate him.
But he is definitely not a Conservative.
GS you are right on target with what you say. The blind refuse to look at the facts. How many times has the Kyoto treaty been bandished about on this blog. This would be the final straw for some of the manufacturers who are hanging on by a fingernail.
“It applauds the radicalism of the economic changes of the past four decades — the dismantling, say, of the American steel industry (and the job and income security that it once provided) in the cause of greater efficiency.”
Where did this come from? Someone had indigestion and burped – this was the idiocy that came out. The saddest thing is that libs hang their hat on it as gospel.
Environmentalist have hurt the steel industry more than any conservative could. When the over zealious standards for smokestack emissions went into effect the resulting cost to the industry made it impossible to compete with countries like China who have no such restrictions and therefore can sell their product much cheaper. When you add to this the high wages unions demanded you turned the steel mfg. into rusting plants and vacant parking lots.
I know we have to have air standards. I have seen the results of the acid rains in the NE mfg. corridor but we also have to have common sense in enforcing these.
This is a problem with lots of reasons for being but one of those isn’t the conservative movement.
Boy Phillip, you really had to scrounge to come up with a blog to blast conservatives this time. I’ve never seen such convoluted and backwards reasoning.The truth is that the ancient steel mills in the rust belt were under Government price controls and teriffs that allowed them to remain marginally profitable but never allowed them to make enough to replace their old , inefficent, polluting, open hearth blast furnaces with more modern furnaces that became available in the 50’s and 60’s. When deregulation came in the late 70’s, there competitors in Asia and Europe with modern plants (payed for with US tax dollars in some cases) had the upper hand.As for the collapse of the family and community, this is much more the fault of the societal changes that took place in the 60’s and 70’s than anything the Conservatives did.Maybe next time Phillip, before you take what the Washington Post says at face value you should do a little research on your own like a real journalist would.
Conservatism or the Republican party has gone through quite a change since the days of Lincoln.I am a Fiscal conservative and to a point a bit of a social conservative through the last description has came to mean “Filled with righteous hate/love”. In my mind the both can compliment each other, giving a hand up is better then a hand out. But much as the right accuses the left of being control by the extremist, I fully with out a doubt will say that the right has been taken over by the extreme.
A true fiscal conservative understand that the nation does better when its people do better, all it people.“trickle down economic” was like the theory of Marxism or Communism, on paper it sounds good. But the failure comes when the human factor is introduced. The theory that the better those at the top do, the better those at the bottom will do is true fiscal conservatism. Of course the problem became that those at the top did better but did not share the wealth, they simply saw it as a chance to keep more wealth. That is short sighted, as any business makes it money from producing a product, whether it be a hard product such as a Air plane or a soft product such as a life insurance policy. I said it before, it is a symbiotic relationship a consumer base and a consumable good.
By lowering the wages and causing job insecurity, business effects the consumer base and its profit scale.Otherwise saying that by trying to make a large profit by moving manufacturing oversea, importing their products from oversea. They cut into the profit on the other end, by lowering the buying power of their consumer base. As well as the profit scale of other businesses too, thus causing them to cut costs and farther dragging down the consumer base.
Econ101 mentioned that he drive an “American made car” Chevy and Ford I too thought I would buy American. I bought a Ford Courier, it was made by Mazda in Japan and imported by Ford. While a co-worker drove a Toyota… Made in Tennessee. The last Chevy I had, was made in Canada and imported by Chevy. So much for “Be American… Buy American!”. Another thing on Chevy, I read an article sometime ago about a year after NAFTA was ratified. Chevrolet was one of the largest cooperation pushing for NAFTA. The reporter simply sat at the U.S./ Mexico boarder and counted the car carriers going into Mexico and coming from Mexico. Even though Chevy had a manufacturing plant in Mexico, they claimed that NAFTA was needed so they could do business in Mexico.
The reporter counted twenty five car carriers coming South to North, while there was only three coming North to South. Kind of makes you wonder which country Chevy had in mind when saying they want to do business in? Of course it made sense to Chevy, the average wage of their employees in Mexico was two dollars an hour while the average wage in their American plant was twenty five dollars an hour. But by cutting their American employee base in America , while intending to sell their cars and pick-up in America. Just whom other then Econ101 did they think was going to buy their vehicles?
I fully support the idea of both cutting wages and cutting the cost of living. With the cost of living growing while the average wage declining. It will out pace the balancing point. Again, when all people do better the Nation does better. A local shoes store is a classic example of learning to adjust to the market, 28 years ago the Wal-Mart I work at moved in. The owner of the shoe store complained for years he could not compete, he raised his prices thinking since he was averaging a lower amount of product being sold every week. But soon found that he went farther down. Till he took a look at the type of shoes Wal-Mart sold and found a niche where he could still sale shoes at a reasonable price but not be in competition with the chain store.
That is a good example of adjusting the business to meet the amount of profit that is available. He had the choice of either selling one pair for a profit of a hundred dollars or selling twenty pairs for a profit of thirty dollars a piece. He is still in business today and much happier too.
NOW since I have your attention and this is about my party. stand on notice, there are those that come here and clam to be Conservative. They counter many thoughtful, well informed opinions with name calling and nothing of substance! You are being like a third grade brat and not a thinking person… Hardly one that is a shining example for the Republican party, rather not worthy of saying you are of the “Grand ole Party”.Your conduct and demeanor is below contempt! Calling a 60 y.o. Grandmother “Lindaslut”! How dare you even clam to be an adult little alone a Conservative.Yes there are some on the left that come out swinging, name calling, mud slinging. But I notice it comes more as a response to an attack then pressing their point. They expect as soon as they post they will face some “right-winger” slamming them so they do a pre-emptive strike. It is highly childish and hardly productive to play the “Well he said it first, no she said it first!”. You come here not to counter any point or opinion from the left, but to cause discord! Many here on both side are real Patriots, they just may not see it the same way. You on the other hand care more about acting childish and letting loose your darker side. Than the course and cause of this great Nation… Is your life really that pitiful?
I have been called a liberal, a Democrat, brain dead, a terrorist aider, unpatriotic, a moron, but you know what? Never have I been called WRONG! Hank, Nathan and RM are of the same party as I, they do the Republican party well. Holding the banner of the party and defend it when needed. You on the other hand do nothing but bring shame to the party here!
Worshipping at the feet of the likes of Rush, Ann and O’Reily the darker side of the republican party. These people are not the spokes person for the party, they appeal to a sick, pitiful side of human nature.O’ Reily said last night that he only tells the truth, he went on about the nine children that died in the fire in NYC. He blamed the liberal system, the failure of the immigration system, the failure of the law to arrest the father for having two wives and so many children living in a row house…. But not once did he say it was a real tragedy, that he felt for the children that died, that his prays go out for the lost.
Yes he is telling the truth, much like he would walk up to a child that had been disfigured in the fire and telling them that they are now ugly! It would be the truth but of what use is it?
Is that what has come of the party of Lincoln, Reagan? Mean thinking and uncaring, soulless in the opinion and ways? Of all here I am most likely to disagree with Hank and Nathan on one issue and that is Iraq and President G.W. Bush. Yet that is fine, Hank as I said does my party proud, he is a gentle man in his reply and civil in his manner. Those that amount to being nothing but trolls here are a sickening form of life. I also have been called a R.I.N.O, YOU ARE THE PICTURE PREFECT FORM OF THE TERM!Please do the Republican party and conservatism a favor and become a Democrat or Independent. You are nothing like a Republican, a Republican care more for their country than to the party. They put themselves behind the petty desire to put down those of the Democratic party and in the forefront of the line to stand up for what is right and just. Hank know this, Nathan knows this, Rm knows this…the trolls claiming to be Republican here have not got a clue!
You may have noticed a name missing from the list above, GSheridan I left you out for one simple reason Glynn I have known you long enough to know you do think on occasion, you do not always just parrot some extreme right-wing diatribe. I wish you to come back into the flock, I know you can reason and unlike those that come here to mindlessly start trouble you come here because you really believe in what you say. But you are on the cusp, I am assured you are a good person. I think that is true just misled at times.
This goes for everyone, I am not here because I am a Republican or I think it is funny to argue. What I see going on is not some simple game. Our country is in danger from both within and without. After the enemies of the Constitution both foreign and domestic are defeated then perhaps then there will be time for mindless games. Until then those that came here and pretend to be patriots need not apply you are not welcome… Discord is fine, discussion is fine, disagreement is fine. answering a thought, an opinion, an insight with name calling and put downs is just so third grade school yard. This blog is for adults and those that are Americans. You are neither!
I agree with the comments about name calling and will do better in the future. :)
Question on the matter:
What Political Party held the majority in Congress and the Senate before 1992?hint: It wasn’t the Republicans
On NAFTA and other trade agreements, this is from Wikipedia:
“Bill Clinton made its (NAFTA) passage a major legislative initiative in 1993. During his presidential campaign he had promised to review the agreement, which he considered inadequate. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House passed NAFTA by 234-200 (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor)[2] and the U.S. Senate passed it by 61-38[3]. Finally, Clinton sanctioned the ratification on November 1993
hehehehehhehehehehehheeh
And the best khan can do is hint that “clinton did it” and “the democrats did it”.
typical. sound and fury, signifying nothing.
So much for the party of personal responsibility.
Well said writer dog. well said.
…and if a poster is so thoroughly discredited and humiliated by their past postings that they have to cover their tracks by nic switching…
…isnt that just about the saddest and lowest form of blogging?
ksfarmgrrl,
The source is from Wikipedia. If anyone is to blame it is the author of the source material. I didn’t write it.
Yes, the Democrats cannot look the other way when it comes to the economic stability of the United States.
I see you offer nothing to the conversation but hackneyed trite remarks that say nothing and mean little.
Farm Girl we have a real problem on our hands. It isn’t a conservative or liberal problem. It’s a problem we all share. Trying to lay blame on one side or the other is counter productive.
We need to pull together to look at all the aspects of the loss of manufacturing jobs and work to change the conditions we can and learn to work with the ones we can’t change.
When we cease to be competitive with foreign manufacturers we are giving the edge to competitors. We can either meet the problem head on or set on our laurels and say poor me.
How many here own foreign cars? Keep in mind that several ‘foreign’ cars are now manufactured in the US.
The corporate tax structure has to be structured so that it encourages capital investment in US facilities. Environmental restraints have to be based on logic and not emotion (think snail darter – spotted owl).
There is a solution but fighting and name calling will acomplish nothing.
“I see you offer nothing to the conversation but hackneyed trite remarks that say nothing and mean little.”
Typical repuke stratgy. When cornered, they blame their OWN tactics on the oppositon. War deserter shrub? Attack kerry’s service. Failure to recognize the threat of Al Quiada? Blame it on Clinton.
Yea. The KING of posts with no substance accusing someone else of posting only snark?
Say it isnt so….
You are still saying nothing ksfarmgrll, let’s see some substance on this topic, instead of the republican party (insert hackneyed remark here) and the republicans (insert triteness) here.
You have the opportunity to provide debatable substance, but you don’t.
How come? It is easier to sling than it is to sing?
Sorry big boy, no food fight here today. I’ll let my words stand on their own.
I’ll let YOUR substance (hehehehe) also stand on its own.
“You have the opportunity to provide debatable substance, but you don’t.”
And you had the same opportunity on water, but chose to be (gfaw) an informed isolationist. hehehehhehe
I guess it is time for me to smoke a few cigs, kill a few fetuses, cash my government welfare check and do unimaginable things with my girlfriend in order to destroy the family and religion.
heheheheh. Not to mention cut 1400lbs of seed potatoes to go into the ground.
just keep spinning repukes. You must be bringing so many people to your position… heheheheheheheheh!
Writerdog a well thought out post. I too agree that we should stay on topic. The name calling serves no useful purpose.
I think there are several bloggers here that have some well thought out opinions that get lost in the shuffle of their juvenile behavior. I know that over the weekend I didn’t post at all because I just got tired of fighting to make a point.
Hopefully you will make a difference.
If you want an example of posts with substance, look at Writerdog, KSGRM and ChrisfromMacTown.
Regardless of whether you agree with them or not, they took the time to put their views into statements that have meaning and background.
Pointing and Shaking fingers like you are doing adds nothing to the conversation but division.
I posted my opinion several times on this thread. If you don’t like the message attack the message, discount the opinion.
But to attack the person or make statements about a political party because it is easy, doesn’t make for good intellectual discourse.
“waaaaaaaaa I am being treated according to the golden rule. Waaaaaaaaaaaaa!”
Cant wait for the blog bouncer to show up and defend the weak.
hehehehheheheheheheeeheheheheheheheheh
The only way to change the current difference between the Rich and the poor is to change the current tax system to the Fair Tax plan were everyone pays an equal share of the cost to run the company.
As a reader I just want to say how refreshing it is to read real dialogue, give and take information sharing. No one has to agree with anything anyone else says, but it can be done civilly, in an adult manner without resorting to name calling or personal attacks. Debate the talking points all you want!Have a great day!WD…you rock!
“But to attack the person or make statements about a political party because it is easy, doesn’t make for good intellectual discourse.”
… and this is coming from a poster who, from his very first entries, began attacking Capn’, J R and me.
… and not just attacking our ideas, attacking us personally.
No conflict there, right?
Thank you writerdog, I completely agree and I’ve tried to say that many times in the past but it has never come out quite that elegantly. I used to call myself a Republican/Conservative, I’ve stopped because of the negative connotations and reactions to those phrases. I don’t agree with every Republican talking point, but as soon as I say what party I’m registered as, certain people shut down and refuse to even listen to my opinion – even if I’m agreeing with them! I often don’t read this blog for days at a time, most of the time because of a lack of time in my day but sometimes it is just out of being tired at the whining, crying, and immature things being said.
And as far as this specific subject goes, I would have to agree with gsheridan, ksgrm, and a few others – I think we all contribute to our own demise in some way but to twist history and reasoning to blame it on a specific subset of people is just ridiculous and I’m not going to give all of my reasoning because that would basically only be repeating what others have already said.
writerdog, thanks for the kind words, albeit you watered them down a little. lol
Seriously, you and I have sure had some good discussions over the years, everything from cops and robbers, to soldiers and Presidents.
Yes, the GOP has changed, and I’m not happy with the far-right religious sector, but I know my Democrat parents aren’t happy with the far-left ultra-liberal wing of their group either. We all have our crosses to bear, I suppose.
I’m probably one of the only GOP’ers here that still defends GWB, even though I refused to vote for him in the last General. Being a fiscal Conservative, it’s impossible to defend some of the spending I see taking place, but it’s even harder to defend the current witch-hunt of anything Republican.
Sorry, gotta run…..
The simple fact is this: except for a few years under Clinton-Gore, real wages (as corrected for inflation) have fallen since 1972.
Poverty has gone up every single year under Worst. President. Ever.
The rich have gotten richer as a percent of assets they own.
We are becoming Nicaragua. Or more precisely, we’re becoming what America was before FDR and the Democrats created a growing middle class by protecting organized labor.
One wonders when Ann Coulter literally waxes nostalgic for turn-of-the-century robber-baron economics whether she really wants the children chained to the looms to look out their windows and see the wealthy men playing golf . . . again . . .
The ultra right and ultra left are what are causing the divide in this country to grow ever wider. I have a feeling that most people have strong feelings for talking points on both the right and left side of the aisle. My guess is that moderates, independents, or whatever you want to call us are the majority in this country. The big difference is that their isn’t a big purse that actively pushes out a far right or far left agenda.
Wayreth, sheeit man, where did you come from?
You haven’t posted on the Blog for like a year.
Independents are indeed the biggest “party” in America.
“Independents, biggest party and still growing!”
“Environmentalist [sic] have hurt the steel industry more than any conservative could. When the over zealious standards for smokestack emissions went into effect the resulting cost to the industry made it impossible to compete with countries like China who have no such restrictions and therefore can sell their product much cheaper.”
China’s rise in economic power and industry protection has led them to being the 2nd greatest polluter in the World. Who knows they might catch up the with U.S. someday.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chinaenv.html
ksgrm
“We need to pull together to look at all the aspects of the loss of manufacturing jobs and work to change the conditions we can and learn to work with the ones we can’t change.When we cease to be competitive with foreign manufacturers we are giving the edge to competitors. We can either meet the problem head on or set on our laurels and say poor me.How many here own foreign cars? Keep in mind that several ‘foreign’ cars are now manufactured in the US.The corporate tax structure has to be structured so that it encourages capital investment in US facilities. Environmental restraints have to be based on logic and not emotion (think snail darter – spotted owl)
OOOOoooo
Wait til you see the documentary we discussed! Let’s just say you are half right. But we can protect the environment AND grow business. It does NOT have to be either or. If we have the courage to think in new ways.
Americans can be good at that.
Thank you for the compliments, over the time I have been here I have come to know many on here.The meet ups have given me the opportunity to not only put a face with the name but to see that we all are far beyond the impressions one get from the words read here.
And another lesson I took from the very first meet up, WE all are Americans, diverse, opinionated and proud. But first and foremost Americans, that is the glue, that which will hold us together in spite of what ever enemy attacks or down fall we face. In that I take no credit, I believe and have seen the proof of that given the time to get to know and get the true sense of where someone is coming. We all can reach an accord, we can disagree strongly at times. But it really is the merits of the disagreement and not the party affiliation that should matter.
No one should be taken as wrong solely on whether there is a R or a D on their voters registration card.Sadly it has became too common of late, forgetting that we as a Nation and as a people are only strong when we are together as Americans. I have said it before, Al-Qaeda can not destroy this country, even with a nuclear weapon they just do not have the power. Only we, the American people can do that, by getting so wrapped up in the fighting, by loosing sight of what makes us the most powerful Nation in the world.This country should have never successes, many, the “experts” in world affairs and Government said so. Even those that inspired the concepts that our Government was build on said it could not stand.
I know that for some it would be harder then for other to come to an accord, they have come to be so caught up in the defending and arguing that their minds. The very first thoughts are to attack, to defame, to ridicule.To the point that the subject, the heart of the matter become lost in the exchange. To attack become more important then to express the heart felt opinion. That it is the party and not what is said that become the deciding factor.
Can we change? Of course, I have seen that even today, on this thread some that seemed so hard press to have their only words be angry are expressing real thought. I have said it before, those that post here are special of today. When one of our greatest failing in this country is apathy on the course and direction that we are going. These people take the time to think, express, to argue the topic of the day. Perhaps that makes us the last fortress of true Democracy. In a country that has become to caught up in the flash and movement of the neon lights.
But never should we lose sight of the importance of the country not just to ourselves but to those that will be born in the future. We and not Al-Qaeda, or Iran are the only ones that can destroy this Nation. Dropping nuclear bombs on our lands, invading our shores, subjugating our people will not destroy the United States of the Americas. For it is not the people, the land that is America, it is our ideals our principals that go beyond simple human nature in fact they stand in the face of human nature! It is those ideals and not our military that will defeat our enemies, that will be the conqueror of other lands. Perhaps our enemies do not understand that or they understand it all to well and that is what frightens them. Democracy is like a cancer to them, but Bush is wrong, we need not bring Democracy to the world. It move upon its own time and will, we should just be its standard bearers. The light in the darkness for all to look upon and be amazed and in wonder there of.
You can not force Democracy upon a people and expect it to work, for it only works through the soul and not the head. If only through the head it is no better then Communism or a Dictatorship. For the force needed to overcome the human nature is not there. The need for sacrifice is not felt, lacking those two things mean all will fall short. Be on guard, we too will fall short if we forget it and become a angry mob of tribes with no common glue.
As a liberal I am not going to stand up for Bill Clinton. I think he was ALMOST as bad as a Republican. Only a little better which is why I am not supporting his wife. I think NAFTA, Monica, Waco and Elian about say it all for him and I do not wish to go through more of that crap with his wife. We must stand an demand a REAL Democrat that is not afraid to stand and fight. Somebody like FDR. Maybe Obama is that man, maybe Edwards but NOT Hillary.
You know why CONS are really pissed off?? Because they see the fat lady about to sing on their movement. After 2008, Reaganism is effectively dead. It is on life support now and considering that the 2 top candidates for the GOP nomination are both social liberals on most issues, that means effectively that social conservatisim is DEAD after 2008.
Social conservatism was DEAD prior to 2006. I didn’t go the funeral. What was it like?
Was everybody cheering? I would suspect so.
Do not count out the social conservatives quite yet, The R.R. is some what splintering at the moment.But they are still looking for another stealth candidate, one that they can control but is not obvious to the American people and the Moderates Republicans. That is why they will not support Brownback, he would normally be their prefect choice. But he has already drawn too much attention for his views.
There are a few left, but now that they have lost the support of the Neo-cons, they are back to where they were. Neither the Neo-Cons nor the R.R have the power and votes to go it alone. You will see the R.R. looking back to taking over the lesser offices again to build back the momentum they had. But of the trilogy of the Neo-Cons, R,R, and the PNAC crowd the biggest losers is the PNAC, They still have not admitted that their thought processes were in error. “The plan was good, it was the implementation that was bad!”.Is their latest excuse, the members have gone into hiding within the American Enterprise foundation.