Think the questions on the Fox network’s “Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader?” are difficult? Try this eighth-grade final exam from Salina schools, dating from 1895. I didn’t even know what some of the questions on the test are asking. (What is phonemic orthography? Is “orthography” really a word?)
Some of the questions are outdated. I don’t think eighth-graders nowadays know how to draft a bank check, a promissory note or a receipt — maybe I missed that day when I went through eighth grade. They should know how big a bushel of wheat is; that’ll come in handy on the arithmetic section.
Posted by Ross Stewart
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44 Comments
The question of relative knowledge is important, when I was in school I use to think about how important was it to know that some died guy an one time crossed some river? It did not ever come up in a job interview, I could not see where it would be important in making a living.
I have noticed lately that many facts and bits of knowledge that I have stored away in my mind. Are not even common knowledge to those that came after me. One night I went to work after watching a PBS program on the “Minachis ( misspelled) the godfather’s of the Renaissance”. They had said that the first Pope that took power after the last Minachi left the office. Walked into the Sistine chapel and saw the frescos that Michelangelo had painted. He order that they be censored as they was too much nudity and it was more fitting for a bar then a house of God. The Painter name that was given the job, has been lost in history. He is only known by the Italian phrase meaning “Big underpants”.
I was shock at the answers when I ask my co-worker a trivia question about the painter’s name. Some did not know about the Sistine chapel, there were a few that had never heard of Michelangelo!
I once wrote this on a seventh grade English class room’s chalk board, “It is impossible to know just what knowledge you will need to know in twenty years. So you should treat all knowledge like a grain of sand and your mind as a sand pail. Collect all the grains you can!”. Admittedly it is difficult to know just what out of all the accumulated knowledge that has happened since man first walked erected Is needed to live, but then again the species human is suppose to be the most intelligent of all species. else we could just get by with instinct.
Or as one of my heroes said, “Knowing is half the battle!”… Go Joe! heeee
http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift
Interesting power point presentation on teaching today’s students and preparing them to fill jobs that don’t yet exist, using technologies that haven’t yet been invented to solve problems we don’t yet know are problems.
Linda, that is why many schools and businesses take the “good athlete” approach.
Jody Conradt, the coach of the UT Lady Longhorns basketball team, says when she goes recruiting, she doesnt always get the best center (tall jumpers with good hands) or the best shooting guard, or the strongest forward.
She usually saves a slot or two for someone who is just a “good athlete”. They may not be the tallest center, the quickest guard, etc. But they can play any position and have good fundamental skills like dribble, pass, shoot, etc.
That is why basic skills are so important.
We are, as you so wisely stated, “preparing them to fill jobs that don’t yet exist, using technologies that haven’t yet been invented to solve problems we don’t yet know are problems”
So if they have good “hard” basic skills like math and reading and writing and science, and good “soft” skills like critical thinking, working in teams, etc. it doesnt matter what the job.
They can be “good athletes” and adapt to most any job that suits their likes and needs and specific skills areas.
I am sure Tracy can attest that engineers need good writing skills and Steven can attest that social scientists need math skills.
Intellectual “cross training” is what is needed.—–
Excuse me for rambling here, but a great book on the subject is “The Fifth Discipline”.
Businesses cant rely on high schools, trade schools or colleges to turn out “well prepared workers” anymore. As linda notes, skill sets in demand are changing ever more rapidly. What was a “relevant” education one year is completely obsolete in three years.
And, particularly at the university level, general education was NEVER meant to teach trades. Knowledge and the pursuit of scholarship are worthy even if they dont lead to a great technical job.
Most of the business owners I have worked with say “give me a smart person who works hard and I will teach them the rest of what they need to know.” They fully expect to teach specific skills and practices on the job.
…and as an aside, isnt it sad that most small business owners are THRILLED if they get someone who shows up regularly and on time and takes instruction well.
Giving students and good grounding in math, science and language, along with communication and teamwork skills, AND making them “lifelong learners” will deliver the “smart person” part of the deal.
The “works hard and takes instruction well” is, I think, a function of motivation and character.
I cant help with that :)
I dew righting awl the tyme.I are allsew skiled in tieping.
Morning KFG.It’s ANOTHER good day to be me.
Well written ksfarmgrrl, don’t think I can add anything that would improve upon that.
ksfarmgrrl, I enjoyed reading your words about learning! Have you been a teacher? If not, sounds like you would make a very good one. You know how important it is to be a lifetime learner.
Teaching facts in order to pass the next assessment (teaching to the test) doesn’t allow much time to teach the student to be curious and how to find out. Knowing “facts” is so unimportant if you know how to use resources.
Snopes says this is an urban legend and is fake.
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.htm
Right on ksfrmgrrl. You’re exactly on spot about education.
I don’t know if this makes any sense, I’m certainly not an expert on why or how the brain retains information.
All I know is my husband will not retain information that is not relevant to his world.
So maybe we need to MAKE all that we wish to teach relevant.
They don’t see it now as kids, because nobody has asked them, how will this apply to your future. I always knew I wanted to be in the medical field, but I saw no reason to know algebra. I learned it begrudgingly, but it wasn’t until I was trying to calculate dosages and IV drip rates when it became extremely relevant to me.
Pitch and slope became relevant when I was working on my house.
Joe W.
Yup, I thought it was fake too when I first saw it.
I’ve seen plenty of work from 8th graders 100 years ago.
They weren’t towering geniuses despite the fact that the brighter ones stayed in school and the less academically oriented dropped out.
BTW, phonemic orthography is simply spelling (orthography) by sound (phonetics). Ortho = straight, correct as orthodontist. And phono = sound as in phonograph and telephone.
How hard is that?
Greetings Wichitans,
Here we go again on this 1895 examination.
I submitted this document back in the early mid 1990s from some research I did in the Oklahoma Historical Society using Kansas Historical Society documents as the primary source.
The transcribed documents were sent to rootsweb.com. As far as I know people can reuse or redistribute these documents without the permission of rootsweb or myself, the submitter.
Having no copyright on the document because it is in the historical record, I suppose the Internet folks can do what they want on interpretation.
I did email Snopes.com some time back about them claiming this to be an Urban legend which it is not. They still have the transcribed document on their Website as an Urban Legend.
I guess the lesson here is that you cannot rely on the Internet as a primary source when it comes to reliable primary source information.
BTW, trying to find Tax forms in Wichita is quite trying. (breathes rapidly)
Back to hinterlands of Mississippi tomorrow.
Like Gore invented the internet, JM claims that this forgery is his baby.
Unbelievable.
And what happened to “I’m moving to Mississippi, so I won’t be posting here anymore.”
How many times do you have to lie your ass off before everyone just stops believing you?
Everytime you post, you prove yourself a liar yet again.
Get a new hobby. One that doesn’t involve bothering people.
How’s being black working out for you down there in Mississippi, Eier (JM)?
That’s all you are good for Capn is harrassing me, calling me liar and other names you can think of that suit your style.
Do the world a favor and disappear. We don’t need people like you around.
I will bet $10,000.00 to anyone that I’m the one that posted the 1895 exam on the Internet first.
This was long before there were blogs, Snopes.com and even your online personna Capn.
Notice Capn argument style is the only way he can win argument is to use ad hominem remarks, make up stories and generally lie about anyone he wishes.
He even posted for a month something about me that he made up by posing a question I did not answer. I was ignoring him because he lies everytime he writes something.
Because I did not answer, Capn assumed in his tiny brain that it must be true.
This is the type of person he is, a stalker, liar and all around untrustworthy stalker that needs to be banned from all Internet activity.
Where you online in 1982 Capn? I was and have submitted many articles. You are just another poor excuse of person that hides behind their computer and takes jabs at people when he knows he won’t get punched in the face.
In other words Capn is a coward.
So, I hearby do decree that Capn will be forever known as CapnCoward.
Again JM!
Can you explain this?
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/a/1895exam.htm
They have found the orginal documents for this claim.
They concluded that it is mostly likely not an 8th grade exam, but a school teacher entrance exam.
This is the person who found the exam. Shirley Tower, the volunteer librarian for the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society, found the exam and posted it on their website in 1996.
Unless you are Shirley Tower, then you must explain why you should claim as the person who found this exam.
Didn’t we already debunk this urban myth a couple of months ago? No surprise Fox reports myths as facts like their pathetically moronic moon landing hoax story.
Doug! “Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader” is a game show on Fox.
This 1895 exam myth has no relation to the Fox Network.
How did you get that mixed up?
I don’t verify other peoples sources. I don’t know who Shirley Tower is nor have I met her.
I only know that researching genealogy since 1978, I spent a lot of times in Historical Societies in all parts of the country.
The reference for mine was from a 1930s copy of the Kansas Historical Society meeting and I don’t recall where the meeting was. Remember this was documents for a meeting held, not in a printed form.
I have seen since then reprints in magazines such as the Quarterlies that Kansas Historical Society has done. They might be found in the 1930s Kansas Historical Society Quarterly Reviews, I don’t know.
I remember getting a lot of emails back then when I posted it and perhaps Shirley Tower was one of them asking me about it. There was a lot of laughing about our own education and what not.
I don’t know why people do not understand that a person such as myself couldn’t be a pioneer of posting documents on the Web. Especially a person who has spent nearly thirty years researching historical documents.
Back before there were programs like Family Tree maker and etc were available to make printed charts I had made one myself. It was for an old dot matrix printer and I had use BASIC to have the printer spit out some nice lineage charts. It was really slow. heh
I didn’t have the time or know how to translate it other printer drivers, so I gave the code to someone who was a real programmer.
Now,there were other people who had done the same thing as I but it wasn’t until canned Genealogy programs came out that lineage charts could be printed.
It doesn’t really matter but I considered myself as one of the first to do it, because people where amazed to see such a thing come out of a dot matrix printer. Loading all those input variables in to arrays worked but it was kind of clunky. Hey, I’m not a programmer. :)
Anyway, my find and posting was before Shirley Tower’s and it doesn’t really matter as the original paper posters were at that old Kansas Historical Society meeting 90 years ago.
I just happened to be the one who boosted it to Internet or should I say Compuserve and Rootsweb access a long time ago.
There should be proof of your claim JM.
Where are the other documents of it? You said you posted it online.
Kook JM!
Did you also invent “the Clapper”?
At least “the Clapper” is good for something.
This test? I saw it more than 20 years ago. I can’t understand most of it. I can’t couldn’t operate a muzzle loader either. Nor will I ever need to.
This test is about knowledge that is mostly out dated. It’s irrelevant.
Well Joe I don’t know where they are. Compuserve is the first place it was posted and later rootsweb. I know the people at rootsweb stated at one point they had a server crash (this was way way before Ancestry.com bought them out.)
Whether my version exists in electronic form exists I don’t know.
If I could contact the History Professor I was dealing with at the time I could probably find out . He was at the University of Oklahoma at the time. Don’t know what became of him or if he is still alive.
I don’t know why people have a hard believing that I did this. This is such a trivial thing and why would I claim this trivial matter for what purposes?
If you want to call me a liar Joe, then by all means help yourself.
I know what I know and what I did.
I guess having ancestors in Kansas before it was a state (since 1854) gave me incentive to do such research.
But hey, if you and the Capn want to discredit a person by calling them a liar without any proof yourself, then go ahead.
I also have documents on many matters that are original with some being 180 years old. But I know you wouldn’t be interested in that as you and the Capn would say I someone forged these and made them up.
And thanks Joe for implying I am a liar.
I “used” to have some respect for you.
out of here, going to find a good steak.
I’m not calling you a liar JM. I’m actually trying to help you.
If you are the one that has come up with the 1895 test first, then by all means you should get credit for it.
And if Snopes and TruthorFiction are debunking that the 1895 test is not an 8th grade test, but you say your findings support that it is, then lets get to the bottom of this.
You know how widely circulated this is? This has been around the net and on millions of e-mail boxes. Yet you claim to be the first and that is it a genuine 8th grade test.
I want you to take credit. I never called you a liar.
On the 1895 Kansas exam, given to “applicants”, these applicants would either have been 8th grade girls applying to normal school, or else one-year-older girls who were being tested for job placement.
High school teachers in that era were college graduates and were hired to teach specialized subjects, and their substantial knowledge being assumed, they were not tested in this manner.
So, assuming that normal school or first-teaching-job applicants took this test, and assuming they could answer most of the questions, there was some substantial teaching of young adolescents back then.
Sorry Joe, I haven’t watched tv in a few years except for the clips I see on the internet. Ross Stewart implied a connection.
Regardless of JM’s claims, the premise of the thread is irrelevent.
Flip the equation – would eight graders from 1895 be able to pass contemporary testing? In just the ten years after 1895, technology took enourmous leaps. Those ten years saw the development and first mass production of automobiles and motorcycles and the first airplane flights.
Obviously, since 1895, the world has changed dramatically. Eight graders from that era would be overwhelmed by today’s society and technology.
One problem I would have with a test like the one posted is that it uses units and terms that are no longer in common use. Bushels, for example, are not used in today’s science. We use liters, kilograms, metric tons. Similar with language and grammer – we don’t use the same terminology.
As was noted above – how would they have done with our technology?
They also had time and NO distractions of entertainment, TV, soccer, etc. The learning in and of itself was “recreation”.
Let the record show that when I called JM a “liar,” I wasn’t saying that as an insult to him.
I was saying it based on the simple fact that he said he was leaving the blog for about half a month and then finally came out with THIS STATEMENT:
***ATTENTION BLOGGERS!***
JM HAS LEFT WE BLOG!START THE PARTY!Posted by: JM | February 11, 2007 at 06:08 PM
Then he pops up as soon as this blog is posted with a response, proving 1. that he continually monitors and probably posts under other names and 2. he clearly lied about never posting here any longer.
The next post will go into some detail of the trolling and lying that JM has done in the past two months before he . . . uh . . . left.
Good bye all,I’m leaving this blog as I’m spending entirely too much time on it. (Getting cabin fever and all that.)I will probably head to Mississippi to help out an old friend on his re-construction of his business after Katrina got a hold of it. I’ll still keep my legal residence here.cya
Posted by: JM | January 24, 2007 at 01:27 AM
From Kansas to Mississippi – from the frying pan to the fire?Ah, what the hell – JM has left and come back a half dozen times. Let’s take bets on how look it will be until he is back.
Posted by: WSClark | January 24, 2007 at 09:05 AM
About ready to take off for Miss. Thought I’d leave a parting shot for those who miss laying into me.Having spent eleven and half years of my life overseas in various countries, most of you don’t have a clue of what your talking about on this subject. :)Anyway have fun throwing punches at me, won’t be here to receive them after tomorrow.Heading to that foreign country of Mississippi and river life. :)
Posted by: JM | January 25, 2007 at 09:54 AM
Hi all,Life sucks living out of suitcase.No time to read blog now. Some good southern cooking being prepared. bye!
Posted by: JM | January 28, 2007 at 02:22 PM
Long time no blog. :)Gotta go, still packing up more of my junk, some for storage and some for the u haul.Posted by: JM | February 03, 2007 at 11:13 PM
***** Despite his repeated statements to the contrary, Lying JM continued to post, if only to tell us he was no longer going to post.
Then after he admits his IP was blocked–we can only speculate on what that was all about–he comes back as Eier. He gets the idea that his “blacks like Republicans” would sound better if he himself were black. From there, it’s a small step to fabricating an old negro granny, complete with a country dialect:
Black men and women have migrated to the Republican Party throughout the years. To make such a wild supposition such as racist campaigning is to show your own prejudice. Perhaps you are not “clean” enough according to Senator Biden.
There are quite a few Black Men and Women who don’t buy into the “Let the nanny Government do your thinking for you” and join the Republican Party.
Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 08:17 AM
CF,Maybe this black man doesn’t need to provide you with an excuse using the “poor me” method of debating.
You make your own enemies CF by your own design and methods.
Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 03:43 PM
My grandmother (country gal) gave me a whompin’ when I made fun of here saying “aks” or “ax.”She said to me, “dunna makes me ax you again!”
I(city boy) replied with, “Grandmama! Please don’t give me an axing I’ll be good!”A memorable experience (smile.)I assume that the term “ax” or “aks” come from those exposed to country living style; those isolated from white populations, living in an all black neighborhood like my grandmama.
Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 04:00 PM
JM,So, are you Eier or aren’t you? Are you black? Are you white? Are you something in between? Answer the question, JM. Or will you slink away, again?Posted by: CF | February 09, 2007 at 02:21 PM
CF,What is your issue with this Eier thing?
I am who I am, an ugly Sasquatch looking 60+ year old man. Happy now?
Posted by: JM | February 09, 2007 at 02:37 PM
***** Funny how JM refused to answer a simple yes or no question put him.
Then with no forcing from anyone JM offers this voluntary announcement.
***ATTENTION BLOGGERS!***
JM HAS LEFT WE BLOG!START THE PARTY!Posted by: JM | February 11, 2007 at 06:08 PM
You be the judge–liar or no.
I rest my case.
Let’s see how long it takes the “I never post here anymore” JM to come at me with a bunch of hateful insults.
I’m betting less than 24 hours . . .
CapnAmerica was appointed Blog monitor by who and says who can post from where and when they like and on what subject?
I think you should give this a rest CapnAmerica. This looks like your stalking someone to destroy their reputation.
Unkie Will, JM does not have a lot of rep to destroy. If you piss him off, he threatens you, if he loses a debate, he insults you are claims that “he is leaving the blog forever.”
The Capn’was merely pointing out JM’s own statements.
Thanks, Clark.
Uncle William–
I’m not attempting to be blog monitor, but it does piss me (and it should you too) to be lied to.
If you’re a black man, good and fine. If you’re not, then don’t pass yourself off as one purporting to have special knowledge of the black minority’s views.
It’s like those b*st*rds who pretend to have served in ‘Nam when they never got near the place or people with a fake college degree.
You’re entitled to your own opinions, yes. You’re not entitled to make up sh*t to back it up.
I’m surprised that being lied to doesn’t seem to bother you.
Then again, you’re a staunch Bush supporter, so I guess it does make sense.
BTW, Uncle William, if you can show me where my conclusions were in error, I’d be happy to concede your points.
All I did was re-post what JM had posted in a convenient format so people could see the pattern of lies.
CapnAmerica,
This sounds like you are trying to prove the unprovable. Do you even know who he is, where he lives and anything about him actually?
If you have not met anyone from a blog, how do you know who they say they are? Even if you meet them, unless you do an investigation you won’t know everything about them.
Just like your false assumption that I’m a Bush supporter. I’m a registered Democrat.
It seems you have issues with this person who may or may not exist as he says he does. However, making him your bogeyman says more about you than him.
It looks like he has your number and knows how to push your buttons to get you to dance to his dance.
Do you really want to be his puppet?
Or you could just address issues on the blog and leave the small mindedness to small minds.
Sorry, Unkie Will, but you are wrong about JM. He spend an hour or so one evening accusing me of being gay in the most graphic terms because I support gay rights and oppose a ban on gay marriage.
JM gets highly irrational and trolls, stalks and pouts if you disagree with him or prove him wrong.
That’s JM. He promised that he would never return to WE Blog several times.
Unfortunately for us, he always comes back.
Sort of like WSClark telling me I’m wrong about my opinion on the matter then?
I see then.
Good luck with all of that, whatever “that” may be.
“Good luck with all of that, whatever “that” may be.”
But have a nice day, Unkie Will!!!
Uncle Will–
What part of “lying bastard” do you not get?
You seem awfully defensive about a guy you never even read considering that you just started posting . . .
Under this name anyway . . .
You know who Uncle Will is starting to sound like . . . that’s right!
“Do you really want to be his puppet?”
Man, that’s just what JM used to say.
And ksfrmgrrl what made you think I vote Republican? Was it the mature manner in which I discussed my opinion?Posted by: UncleWilliam | February 28, 2007 at 10:02 AM
*****
Seems a funny thing for a self-proclaimed Democrat to say . . .
I’m not being paranoid, I know for a fact there are UFOs. I have seen them myself!
JM–
It’d be a lot easier just to say “I’m sorry I passed myself off as something I wasn’t.”
But then, that would show true repentance and a desire not to do the same damn thing in the future.
Deep insecurity on your part does not constitute a need for the rest of us to tolerate your lies.