Some things to ponder as Kansas awaits a decision from the Sebelius administration about the three proposed coal-fired power plants near Holcomb, amid a growing outcry about their potential greenhouse-gas emissions and effect on global warming:
Across the country, 148 such plants are planned and 21 are under construction, according to the Edison Electric Institute.
In China, a coal-fired plant goes online nearly every week, and 2,200 are planned to be built by 2030.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/8
- Regular on Death penalty review promised
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/8
- Daniel on Open thread 11/8
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/8
- Daniel on Open thread 11/8
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/8
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/8
- Daniel on Open thread 11/8
- Boxlock20 on Open thread 11/8
122 Comments
I believe the Chinese also have about 1000 Nukes on the drawing boards from what I hear from some Steel people.
They are moving way ahead (in technology)of the rest of the world by using the new Pebble Bed types that can not melt down even with coolant loss. (the French get 80% of their electricity from Nukes)
All while we “discuss” what to do. Besides the burning and pollution aspects of oil/gas…the oil/gas is far more important in medicines, lubrication, materials etc than as fuel.
From all indications, the bill proposed to implement a moratorium on the building of the plants isn’t going to go anywhere.
Sebelius has already stated that she likely will not oppose their construction.
And she’s correct. These plants, when built, will actually pollute LESS than the current plant. And the mercury emissions from the current one – is already below the standards.
Tri-State has met all the requirements – it would be silly to refuse the plants because Oklahoma is waiting, tongue out, to snatch up the proposal.
It’s already been determined that wind energy will never replace coal-fired energy because it can’t provide a reliable constant base.
I watched spokespersons from the Sierra Club tell blatant lies about the water usage Holcomb would need. The plant fills up once then recycles the steam and only uses a minimum amount per year after that. If need be – the plant could use the refuse water from Holcomb. The plant could also double as a trash burning facility. Both of those technologies are in place in Colorado already – successfully.
None of us are happy when our electric or gas bill goes way up. Some people can barely pay right now to keep their homes heated or cooled. By restricting the building of new plants – the governor would need to be ready to put another energy source out there for the public. So far – there isn’t one. Not a reliable one.
If the trend towards shutting down our electric sources continues the prices are going to skyrocket – and that will translate into dead people. If folks can’t afford to get their utilities turned on – they will freeze in the winter – or suffer heat strokes in the summer.
The plants should be built. It will help Western KS as it offers many jobs and it will benefit those purchasing energy – all of us, even if the plants don’t directly supply KS – they will effect the overall price.
Build ‘em.
I pity the Sierra Club folks. They have painted themselves into a corner. They are unable to accept oil, gas, coal or nuclear power for all the usual and wrong reasons. They also don’t think ethanol and other biofuels are the answer, because they use water and starve, well, somebody. Those wind generators are so ugly, and might kill a bird – so we don’t need them in any parts of the state where Sierra Clubbers might live.
What to do, what to do?
I moved back to Kansas after 5 years amongst ‘em, in the Boulder CO area. I watched the eco-weenie crowd in fascination, like being at the zoo. This is their religion, folks, and it’s a strict Calvinist sect that requires condemnation, guilt, confession, punishment and penance. And as with the best religions, the rules only apply to others. So the streets of Boulder are crowded, with SUV’s and hippie buses, all driving from one self-congratulatory circle jerk to another. They brag about their electricity coming from the wind farm north of Denver, and they honestly believe that somehow none of the electricity they use comes from fossil fuels.
What you are seeing in Kansas is just a skirmish in the overall cultural war. There are a lot of battles yet to fight. Surrender on Holcomb, and those idiots will all march on other targets with more direct impact on your economic well-being.
Gotta agree with you Russell. I witnessed this rabid anti everything mentality for 20 years in LA. They have been successful in blocking nuclear plants throughout that state, off shore drilling, gas/oil exploration, etc.
I heard a state senator proclaim that electric cars are the perfect non-polluting vehicle…but he conveniently forgot HOW those cars get their electricity.
D-uh…
Hmmmm….
“It’s already been determined that wind energy … can’t provide a reliable constant base.”
That is a flat-out lie, for four reasons:
First, the wind is always blowing _somewhere_.
Second, it is possible to _force_ the wind to blow. Look up “Solar Updraft Tower.”
Third, no one’s forcing you to dump wind energy directly onto the grid. We can, and should, use wind energy to charge pumped-storage hydroelectric plants.
Fourth, wind would have to account for over 10% of an area’s energy supply before its variability would even start to become an issue.
The real reason power companies don’t like wind probably has more to do with all those non-revenue-producing transmission lines they would have to build.
It’s a no-brainer. We should aggressively develop our wind power resources.
“Kansas awaits a decision from the Sebelius administration about the three proposed coal-fired power plants near Holcomb”
Uh, we arent waiting on an actual DECISION by governor leadership, are we? I mean, poor powerless gov that she is, she says her hands are tied. She says she CANT stop the big bad water drain.
’cause ya know, if she could she would? WTF? Pul-eeeeeeze!
She has already said she will not stop the Holcomb plant from being built. So exactly, what decision are we awaiting from the non decider herself?
A decision about how much cash she might throw steve miller so he can drain the water out of western kansas just a little faster?
Hehehehehehehehehe. Thirty thousand acre feet of water. Per year.
Those figures came from sunflower electric. Not the Sierra club.
And if they COULD use recycled water, why arent they?
The jobs? Less than fifty permanent jobs. They use the construction multiplier to make it LOOK like all those out of state contractors bringing their own labor are hiring kansans.
Less than fifty permanent jobs after construction. At thirty thousand acre feet of water per year. 1500 acre feet of water per year, per job. So folks in Colorado can buy cheap electricity.
I have a great idea. Why not let Colorado build it on THEIR side of the state line and use THEIR water to produce THEIR electricity?
I dont think the workers who will fill all those jobs sherri loves would mind driving a few miles across the colorado line to go to work?
And then bring their paychecks back to kansas?
CON logic.
yeah. windpower is so cheap and so reliable. Tourism jobs? Not so much. The need for Salina to have drinking water? Not so much.
But profits for sunflower electric?
Now THERE is an idea no conservative idealogue could resist.
http://kansasprairie.net/kansasprairieblog/
You’re right, ksfarmgrrl. It’s much better to use that water to grow $2 corn at a loss. Profit is evil.
Oh yeah russell. I am SO WELL KNOWN for suppporting irrigated corn.
Button up russell. Your stupidity is showing.
And your nic tells us all we need to know about your views on water.
Profit is evil?
Could you please repost where I said that? Could you please, russell water hogger, post where I have been in favor of growing irrigated corn at a loss?
I mean, you CAN actually back up your bullshit?
Maybe not. Only the genetically deficient mental abilities of russellites or the genetically greedy from hays would build an ethanol plant in a community that has historic water shortages.
Yeah, you are right. Building an ethanol plant in a town that has had water shortages since the 1950’s is a MUCH better use of water than say, oh, drinking water in Salina.
You dumbass. You better HOPE Salina doesnt come after the water in the Smoky and use the Hays/Russell dodge of “first in time, first in right”.
’cause you round headed roooshins in russell are not first in right OR time.
Maybe Salina will just use your ethanol plant water to irrigage THEIR golf courses with treated drinking water.
You know, like BOTH Hays ans Russell do?
Now THERE is intelligence. Not only do they build an ethanol plant where there is no water, they thumb their noses as the rest of the state by using treated water on their golf courses.
You must be so proud russell….
Bring in on russell. bring it on.
I’ve a question for raptor, russel, or Gsheridan.
Where is the need for the power from these plants?
Kansas is not experiencing a popuation boom.
Increased efficiency of devices uses less electricity not more.
And I want ANY of you to tell me that there is not unholy waste of energy that could be conserved.
Russell isn’t where I live, it’s my first name. And I’m not a fan of big ethanol either. My point, as if you cared, is that the primary reason western KS is losing its groundwater is big irrigation growing big expanses of low value crops. What Sunflower wants to use is small by comparison.
And as for your personal stance on growing irrigated corn, or any other subject – only you give a shit about that.
As you can see here JR, they dont like to answer questions.
Especially ones like this:”Where is the need for the power from these plants?”
Uh, the need for all that power is in Colorado.
And in the boardroom of sunflower electric. All the money sunflower invested over the last 20 years in steve miller’s lobbying is finally paying off.
I mean it’s obvious. sunflower electric has given kansas the best governor money could buy….
Uh, russell, YOU brought up irrigated corn and accused me of supporting it. So obviously, you MUST give a shit about my opinion.
“My point, as if you cared, is that the primary reason western KS is losing its groundwater is big irrigation growing big expanses of low value crops. What Sunflower wants to use is small by comparison.”
Oh, so since we are already pissing our water supply away on ethanol plants and big irrigation, what difference does it make if sunflower uses ANOTHER 30,000 acre feet of water in the dryest part of western kansas?
I’ll just let the stupidity of THAT statement stand on its own.
KFG- OK, I’ll bite- Why are these plants proposed to be built here when they are for Colorado usage?
I don’t know but I imagine ecology\economics are at play.
PS- PleaseDdn’t confuse my biting with Fleets sucking!!
Please don’t
gster, because Colorado, where the need for more electricity exists, has better water usage laws than kansas.
They are too SMART to let their water go for power generation. Not when kansas is so easy, so close, and only Colorado’s leftover water that makes it across the boarder will be used.
Remember, kansas has had to sue colorado repeatedly for them to turn loose of the water the federal courts have said belongs to kansas.
So, ok. They turn loose of it. Let their leftovers run across the kansas boarder. They get the use of it back when sunflower pumps it for power generation and colorado gets the power.
They get the “use” of the water after it as left their state. Double dipping so to speak.
And kansans will do anything, including kill their children, for just one minimum wage maintenance job.
All colorado has to do is whisper in sunflower’s ear. Then steve miller whispers in governor leadership’s ear. And in finny county’s ear, they all whisper the word “jobs”.
That’s all it takes for the keys to the well house to change hands.
That is why I am saying, let them use their own water to generate power.
We’ll use ours for drinking, tourism dollars, hospitality jobs, hospitals, and, well, you get the picture.
And folks in eastern kansas should not forget, this is THEIR water we are talking about. It only passes through western kansas on it’s way to wichita’s water treatment plants.
So when colorado and sunflower and using what you all think is western kansas water…
SURPRISE!!!
It’s really your water.
Enjoy.
If anyone gave a rat’s ass about jobs in western kansas, they could create jobs out here anytime.
Leave the SRS offices open, leave the schools open, leave the federal offices here open.
Welfare? You bet.
But if “jobs” are the holy grail in kanssas, it is cheaper in the long run to provide these “make work” jobs than draining all of wichita’s water for growth in exchange for a handful of maintenance jobs in garden city.
And what is REALLY funny? The last I checked, the regional economy of southwest kansas was the FASTEST GROWING regional economy in the state. Right behind joco and ahead of Wichita.
They dont need the jobs. It’s just that kansans pee their pants in excitement when anyone says “job”, no matter what the costs of creating that “job” or the long term damage that “job” might do to the state. Merely uttering the word “job” in kansas unlocks the keys to the treasury.
And even out here in western kansas, we have more jobs open than people available to fill them.
No shit. Look it up. Hays is advertising 400 jobs they have open but cant fill. Why?
Too few people, not to mention qualified people.
Oh but please, go ahead and give wichita’s water for growth to sunflower in exchange for a handful of lowpaying jobs in a region that has more jobs available than people.
it would be so “kansas” to do so….
KFG- Thanks- that what I thought.
Let’s take those same arguments and apply them to airplanes. Should Wichita make only enough of them to supply Kansas? Or only use locally produced materials to make them? Of course not, because we are more than two centuries removed from the time when a marketplace was purely local.
Should we only grow enough wheat in Kansas to put bread on Kansas tables? Or should Western Kansas only grow enough to consume from Salina west?
Electricity is sold into a distribution grid, not made in a little mom and pop on the edge of town. It’s a product made for sale, under marketplace economics as well as a regulatory environment. And marketplace economics don’t honor borders in a free market economy.
Which means Sunflower can take Wyoming coal, use it to boil Kansas water in Holcomb, and sell the electricity wherever they want. So long as they do it within the rules, and that’s what they are getting permits to do.
And I don’t have one little problem with that.
Does anyone else read russell’s round headed posts and hear Dan Akroyd’s voice in response? “Jane you ignorant..”
Russell, real slow for you now. The problem isnt that sunflower might sell electricity across state lines.
The problem is the WATER they are using to do it. The WATER belongs to all the people of kansas, not just sunflower.
The last I checked, the raw materials used to produce airplanes isnt OWNED by all the people.
The last I checked, the airplanes in wichita dont deprive other regions of WATER.
The wheat farmers who sell dry land wheat across state lines are not exploiting public WATER resources for private profit.
Nice try though, changing the subject from the obscene waste of water to globalization of the aircraft industry and the world wheat market.
You must be from russell with that short subject attention span and twisted logic.
Bring up water, they bring up jobs. Bring up jobs, they bring up the global aircraft or wheat markets.
So now we have addressed the difference between the global markets and the kansas water shortage, I wonder what diversion russell will come up with next?
’cause ya know, if you cant make yer points on logic, the next best thing is to change the subject.
How about gay evangelical preachers for $100 alex?
“boil Kansas water in Holcomb, and sell the electricity wherever they want”
You dont have one little problem with that russell?
heheheheh
Well, that would, thankfully, be the difference between us.
I DO have a big problems with sunflower boiling water that belongs to all kansans and then selling the electricity for their own PRIVATE pocket lining.
Thanks for clearing that up russell. Your postion is perfectly clear and so is mine.
It must suck to be you….
…and could someone, Rhonda maybe, explain WHAT decision we are waiting for governor leadership to make?
She already has said she wont stop the plant.
That’s gonna cause some heartburn in the only blue county in kansas.
And it’s gonna cause a little heartburn amongst democrats nationally.
You know the ones who have jumped on the environmental bandwagon? I think less than chatty kathy might get this Holcomb plant hung around her neck in 08 like the stinky dead chicken that is is.
National democrats need to remember, she is a KANSAS democrat. Which makes her more republican than newt….
Russell,
“Electricity is sold into a distribution grid, not made in a little mom and pop on the edge of town.”
You’re stuck in the 1950’s — WAKE UP, and see the future.
http://www.smallisprofitable.org/“This book describes 207 ways in which the size of “electrical resources”—devices that make, save, or store electricity—affects their economic value.
It finds that properly considering the economic benefits of “distributed” (decentralized) electrical resources typically raises their value by a large factor, often approximately tenfold, by improving system planning, utility construction and operation (especially of the grid), and service quality, and by avoiding societal costs.”
‘Carbon Risk, Coal, and Higher Electricity PricesWhy coal-generated electricity will cost more than utilities claim’http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/fossil_fuels/carbon_risk.html“With over 150 new coal power plants proposed nationwide, the Union of Concerned Scientists has expanded its efforts to heighten awareness of the true costs of coal. Our new report, Gambling with Coal, shows how investment in conventional coal plants is a reckless financial gamble given coming climate regulation.”
Russel
You took a half hearted stab at my question.
I did not base it on the destination of the produced electricity.
I want you to tell me why we need any more power generating facilities at all.
I know of no black outs or even brown outs. Well except for the ones a few years ago in California. But those were not for lack of supply. They were the result of fiscal and political maneuver.And I don’t think you can argue that we do not waste a lot of energy that we do not have to.
As energy efficiency improves, and with greater conservation, just how is it they we need any more power plants? And if there is no need why build them?
Russell doesnt answer questions JR.
He just pontificates, er… bloviates.]
But questions? He doesnt question what his masters tell him. Therefore, he sees no value in answers.
You may as well question god. With the same results.
(crickets chirping)
Now if Russel comes back and maybe tells me that a new cleaner plant is replacing a dirty old one he might have something.
But to build a plant just for the sake of power company profit?
I am 41 years old. In all of my life I don’t ever remember an electrical power shortage. And any outages were weather related and brief.
Does anyone know of any power shortage…..anywhere?
Hey here is an idea. What if Kit Kathy did like Arnold and mandated the newer more efficient flourescent light bulbs? What is the power savings of just that?
JR, you know she said in her own words that she was powerless to stop the plant.
Implying that if she could stop it she would stop it?
She’s only the freakin’ GOVERNOR for christ’s sake. Poor powerless kathy…..
Wise utilities are encouraging customers to increase energy efficiency. It’s cheaper to cut demand than build new plants.
Austin TX is a good example,http://www.austinenergy.com/Energy%20Efficiency/resIndex.htm
‘California moves quickly to block new coal-fired power plants’http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/california-moves-quickly-block-new/story.aspx?guid=%7BF5E4FC79-220C-41D1-84EC-CEFD87139FD5%7D “California utility regulators on Thursday plan to end the state’s financial support for building new coal-fired power plants in other states until technology is developed to capture greenhouse gas emissions from such plants.”
KFG – Kansas water law doesn’t agree with you. Water and other minerals belong to the landowner under whose land they lie. They are not community property, any more than the real estate on the surface is community property. That’s “eastern water law” and it means the landowner can convey them if he chooses. (subject to lots of regulatory oversight)That’s how Sunflower got the acre feet, and why KDHE can still block their usage of the water.
Colorado and points west use “western water law” and it assumes that the water IS public property.Still wonder why it’s so hard to get new power plants built in Colorado?
BTW, sorry if you thought I was being contemptuous of you. I usually can conceal it better than that.
I’m done bloviating now. Declare yourself the winner.
JR,
Conservation is where you start, no doubt. And if you don’t want more economic growth, I guess it’s where you stop. Higher efficiency just slows the rate of increase in demand, it doesn’t shrink demand.
JR writes:————” Where is the need for the power from these plants?
Kansas is not experiencing a popuation boom.
Increased efficiency of devices uses less electricity not more.
And I want ANY of you to tell me that there is not unholy waste of energy that could be conserved.”—————–
You’ve touched on a number of issues. The ‘need’ for the power is everywhere. Yes, we have a sufficient amount right now – but I don’t suppose many of us are heating our homes to 72 comfortable degrees, or cooling it to that temp either. The reason we are conserving is because the cost to heat and cool is pretty high. With more supply the demand will decrease and our bills can drop – or at least keep from being raised so quickly. Either way, it translates into a savings – and a security cushion for us.
Most of the electricity, however will be sold to Colorado, netting KS some bucks – plus the boost to the Western KS economy. A small amount is slated for KS. But it still increases the overall supply.
Yes, appliances are becoming more efficient – that’s good. People are worried about energy costs. Sadly, the people who need an energy break the most – are the ones least likely to be able to replace their old appliances with new energy efficient ones.
I also agree that energy is wasted on a massive scale, but mostly in the consumer sector.
Wind energy is about the most ‘energy efficient’ but, contrary to what one guy wrote earlier – it can’t provide a constant base. Our grid is operating at max level right now, which just means we are consuming all the electricty that is being pumped into it. We have no excess. Coal-fired power plants have some loss of efficiency from the wasted heat that they emit in the process of turning the coal into power we can use.
In Russell, KS they snuggled an Ethanol plant right up to the coal-fired plant and it uses some of the latter plants spent heat waste to power the Ethanol process.
When I spoke with Kathleen Sebelius last October at a Chamber dinner – I mentioned to her that she could require the proposed plants to ‘recycle’ the wasted energy, either by piggy-backing an Ethanol plant OR by following what other heat expenditure plants have done and require a business utilization – such as a ‘hot’ greenhouse. Some plants use the heat for growing roses on a large scale which in turn supplies many more jobs.
But there will still be some loss of heat – just because of the process. We can try to control it – and recycle it – but we can’t stop all of it.
The new plants are patterned after a plant in Craig, CO that Tri-State owns. My husband worked on the construction of that plant many years ago – when he was 14 and lying about his age to draw union wages. Silly kid.
Anyway – I have the stats somewhere from the head guy who runs the computer operational center in the Craig plant on what it would take to build a comparable wind farm to generate the same amount of energy. A study was done a couple of years ago. If anyone wants to read it – I’ll dig it out…but it might take me awhile to find.
Russell you ignorant….]
“KFG – Kansas water law doesn’t agree with you. Water and other minerals belong to the landowner under whose land they lie.”
THAT IS A FLAT LIE DUDE.
Kansas water does indeed belong to ALL of the people of kansas. The state of kansas owns ALL of the water and water rights in Kansas. Landowners get to USE That water right. They dont own the water.
VT already gave the legal citation on this.
Prove what you are saying is true. It isnt. I’m waiting for the citation.
Water rights, other than DOMESTIC water rights, do NOT get conveyed without permission from the state.
Domestic, for your reading pleasure russell, means the water to run a household, raise a garden, and water a small cattle herd.
IT does not include irrigation. Or industrial water rights.
So round head, I see you MIGHT be through bloviating, but you have not yet stopped LYING!
Russell, for your research and reading pleasure: see K.S.A. 82a-701 et seq, particularly the provisions of K.S.A. 82a-702 and 82a-703. BTW, these statutory provisions date from 1945, FYI.
KSfarmgirl – some irrigation is grandfathered in – but a permit is needed for new wells. The permit process is approved at a local, not State level. A license to drill wells is regulated at the State level.
The Dakota Formation lies under the Ogalallah reserves and has plenty of water, although drilling that deep costs a lot more.
Uh, sherri?
“netting KS some bucks – plus the boost to the Western KS economy.”
Yet another truthiness in drag to make us think it is the truth.
KANSAS nets NOTHING from this. Sunflower electric nets profits. Not the state, or anyone else in the state. Just sunflower.
The “boost” would be the less than fifty maintenance jobs you swooned over for western kansas?
Uh, draining the water will result in a net LOSS for the economy of western kansas.
A necessary resource will be unnecessarity depleted for a net regional economic LOSS.
If you think a little in lieu of tax payment in Finney county will outweigh the loss of water for ALL of kansas, you are sadly mistaken.
It is a classic tragedy of the commons. Look it up.
“some irrigation is grandfathered in”
Not true. See vaughn’s citation. If the pre 1945 is what you are talking about, those are domestic rights granted pre 1945. Not irrigation. Not industrial.
If you want to take water you were using to wash sand, and take the same amount and irrigate crops with it, you are not allowed to do so without permission from the Kansas Water Office.
“The permit process is approved at a local, not State level.”
You mean to transfer the use of water from one use to another? Wrong. The Kansas Water Office must approve it.
What “permit” are you talking about? NO water usage permits are granted by any local authority that outweigh what is needed from the Kansas Water Office, the Division of Water Resources, and David Pope.
Get your facts straight sherri.
Read Vaughn’s citations sherri and then come back and post.
KSFgirl – you could use an Econ 101 class.
The ‘maintenance ‘ jobs are the least of the economic boost for Western KS.
It would take at the minimum, a decade and a half to construct the three separate towers and during that time and influx of money will be spent in the Western KS region. Surely you can understand that?
It takes literally hundreds of workers to construct these plants and they spend their paychecks somewhere.
Do you really think they will all run to Colorado to spend them? Or do you think they just might buy things where they actually live?
By the time the plants reach the maintenance phase – the town will have grown – attracted MORE business and utilized the increased tax base to build new schools.
KSFG – I meant the permit to drill new wells is approved at the local level.
I purchased a farm – the irrigation rights transfered from the seller – to me.
All legal.
No doubt the transfer of irrigation rights is legal. It still had to be approved by the Kansas Water Office.
Maybe the landowner did it for you? Please post the citation that allows for transfer with no STATE review or permission.
I am sure David Pope would be quite interested.
“It would take at the minimum, a decade and a half to construct the three separate towers and during that time and influx of money will be spent in the Western KS region. Surely you can understand that?”
Please post some numbers to back up that crap. Otherwise, it is just speculation.
Not to mention the MULTIPLIER effect for all those construction jobs. I mentioned that multiplier effect in my first posts.
I guess since I have done graduate work in economics, and practiced as an economist in several settings over 21+ years, it is logical I missed econ 101. Isnt that paulie’s handle?
Silly me. I should defer to your opinions instead of asking for facts?
Methinks you are under the influence of too much chamber of commerce crap. Just multiplier crap and wishful thinking with no numbers.
Here is a hint sherri, the FIRST question any trained economist asks is “where are the numbers”?
Your economics credentials would be…?
hee hee hee hee hee! Laughing now.
“Or do you think they just might buy things where they actually live?”
Uh, yeah sherri, that is exactly what I am saying.
Most of those workers will not LIVE in western kansas. More multiplier crap.
Numbers please. Tell us the numbers and then since you are so high on the multiplier effect, you might explain the methodology for those multiplier numbers?
“KFG – Kansas water law doesn’t agree with you.”
Gee russell, still waiting for you to comment after reading VT’s citation.
You know, the REAL law, not the made up bullshit you posted about eastern and western water law?
The REAL Kansas water law, the one on the statute books, doesnt agree with you or sherri?
Wanna comment now smart boy? I dont have to delcare a winner. You’ve been PROVEN to be a liar.
Here’s a little help. Every county attorney’s office in kansas has a book called Kansas Statutes Annotated. You can read it. Really.
Ya ought to try that before bluffing your empty hand. Yet again.
And since you, russell, are so much more of a legal expert than VT, the real lawyer.
And since you, sherri, are such an accomplished economist AND expert on Kansas water law.
Would either of you care to comment on the concept of “beneficial use” and how any water permits for the Holcomb plant violate that concept?
discuss….
ksfarmgirl writes:——–”….rant snipped….I guess since I have done graduate work in economics, and practiced as an economist in several settings over 21+ years………….rant snipped…”—————-
Grad work in Economics?
Where? At YouBuyEmCheapDegrees University?
You are a certifiable NUT!
I can’t figure out why anyone on this board would respond to you.
You have GOT to be the most childish imbecile here. By a LONG shot. And that’s a tough category to top.
If you can come down from whatever drug du-jour you’re on – and post like an adult – I’ll be happy to debate this with you.
But you’re starting to sound a LOT like Fred Phelps – Kansas leading Democrat.
Is that who you are in disguise?
Come on – you can tell us.
We’re all ears.
Ya know sherri, I’m still waiting on you to comment on the post that the net economic LOSS of the value of the mined and wasted water, will be greater than any GAIN from the multplier effect on the dollars spent by transient construction workers on motel rooms and sandwiches.
Gsheri?
I may not be an economist.
Never had Econ 101
But ANYONE can see that…..
“With more supply the demand will decrease and our bills can drop – or at least keep from being raised so quickly. Either way, it translates into a savings – and a security cushion for us.
is at odds with this entire thread!
Suflower wants to build a plant so they can charge us LESS for electricity???
And it take 15 YEARS to build the thing?I’m gonna invest in some flourescents.
I guess since you cant back up ANY of your bloviating bullshit with numbers, that would be a no from you?
heheheheh. Yeah. I’m childish. I just insist on facts and numbers. I know it is damned inconvenient for folks like you, but I think that is what economists do.
I must have gotten your goat by asking for proof, not puff.
No other explanation for your hostility toward my degrees, education, experience and knowledge.
Still waiting for you to post YOUR economics credentials. Or are you just substituting some vague memory of some computer jock from colorado who maybe told you something once?
And please, when you are through with your little hissy fit, post the facts, not your usual high falutin’ sounding fraud.
Please, DO NOT respond again without numbers and facts to counter my childish rants. heheheheheh
GSheridan,
“With more supply the demand will decrease and our bills can drop -”
No, more coal-fired plants = higher bills.
* Future carbon regulation will increase the costs, making efficiency and renewables even more popular.
* Distributed Generation is faster and cheaper than old-style “central” power plants.
* Coal (and nuclear) are most profitable running near 100% capacity — efficiency, renewables and DG will cut demand on coal, further raising coal’s cost.
More points… such as utilities having liability re damage from AGW, and how investing coal $’s in efficiency would be MUCH better.
‘Making Sense of the “Coal Rush”: The Consequences of Expanding America’s Dependence on Coal’http://www.uspirg.org/home/reports/report-archives/new-energy-future
GSheridan: “But there will still be some loss of heat – just because of the process. We can try to control it – and recycle it – but we can’t stop all of it.”
Higher efficiency eliminates the need for new coal plants, and the wasted heat.
Your question is moot, Ksfarmgirl, since many of the ‘transient’ workers, will build homes, their children will go to school and they will eat more than sandwiches.
You must have NO concept of how long it will take to finish the construction of all three phases.
During this time, do you suppose none of the ‘transients’ children will marry and make homes of their own – have children?
You can blow and go all you want about a disparity to your so-called water loss vs economic gain – but you don’t know Jack Squat about the areas where coal-fired plants are constructed, the people who live there – the benefit to business OR the return to the community.
I have to get back to work now – but if you behave and post sensible questions – I’ll address them later this evening – or early tomorrow morning.
Ewww watch it cos.
Gsheri is winning through intimidation!
Or TRYING to.
I wonder what names she’ll call me while the farmgrrl melts her down?
Hee hee hee hee hee hee
Oh, the queen MIGHT grace us with her presence if we behave as she commands?
TOO FUNNY!!!!!!!
We would more of your bloviating with out facts, um, why?
And gee sherri, here is another economic wisdom gem from you:
“With more supply the demand will decrease”
DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or should I say “DUHH”!
Real slow for you dear. When supply increases, it isnt DEMAND that goes down. In fact, increased supplies can make demand go UP!!
It is PRICES that are supposed to go down when supply goes up and demand stays the same.
Duh.
And… still waiting on you to post numbers instead of bullshit.
The more you howl in feigned outrage, the more we see how full of hot air and how empty of facts and knowledge you are.
Who wants to bet she is sticking her tongue out at the screen in her oh so mature and factual manner?
hehheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheheh
OK JR and cos, your turns now.
“but if you behave and post sensible questions – I’ll address them later”
Hell sherri, you havent answered the questions I’ve already posted. Why should we hold our breath you will answer new ones?
Please. post. the. numbers. and. facts. to. backup. yer. bloviating.
THEN we might post more questions for the queen to answer.
I don’t have the link savvy or land knowledge of cosmos or kfg.
But I’ve been at this long enough to call a melt dowm when I see it.
Yes DO come on back later Gsheri and try to rebuild the shattered remains of your rant here.
Oh and when you do?
Do you or your husband have a financial stake in the construction of this plant?
See? Cause that would tend to explain your interest and your frothiness here.
GSheridan,
“You must have NO concept of how long it will take to finish the construction of all three phases”
You think that’s a “positive”? It’s not.
* Electricity demand can be responded to much faster by efficiency, renewables, and DG.* If coal over-estimates future demand, it’s less profitable.* The more people realize that AGW is a fact, the more “undesireable” coal becomes.
New coal plants are a 40+ year investment and decision.Ratepayers would be much better off if the Holcomb $’s instead went into efficiency and renewables.
GSheridan,
“I watched spokespersons from the Sierra Club tell blatant lies about the water usage Holcomb would need. The plant fills up once then recycles the steam and only uses a minimum amount per year after that.”
http://www.kansas.sierraclub.org/Wind/SunflowerPlant-WaterUsage.htm“Sunflower Electric has indicated they will need about 8000 acre-ft per year of water to operate each of their three proposed new 660 MW boilers. This will be needed to operate water cooling towers.”
http://www.holcombstation.coop/Environmental/water.cfm“Each of the three new units will require about 8,000 acre-feet of water to meet annual production needs.”
Since you seem to claim to be a coal-plant expert, please explain what the Sierra Club’s “blatant lies” are.
They dont agree with her cos, that is what her problem is with the Sierra Club.
Sunflower Electric’s OWN published figures are that they will use 30,000 acre feet per year.
Seems to me the Sierra Club was being generous compared to Sunflower’s own water usage numbers.
hehehehehehe. Guess that is why she is so reluctant to discuss numbers?
ksfarmgrrl,
Yeah… facts, reality, and future problems (like AGW and carbon taxes) can be really “annoying” to some people — especially those in the fossil-fuel industry.
Lots going on here…..
Fact, all surface and groundwater in the state of Kansas is subject to appropriation by the Division of Water Resources. Exception, those wells that are for “domestic use” are exempt.
Fact, wind energy is not deemed to be a reliable source of base energy because it is not “energy on demand.” The energy output is dependent upon wind speed and time.
Fact, 60% of the water for the City of Wichita comes from Cheney Reservoir on the Ninnescah River Basin. That water does not come from Colorado. 40% of the water comes from the Equus Beds. Water from the Equus Beds comes from a combination of sources including natural recharge/infiltration from rainfalls over Kansas. Arguably, some water comes from CO.
Ralph,
Fact: Water is an EXTREMELY important resource, and needs to be conserved for future generations.
Fact: Coal-fired electricity COSTS more, and takes more TIME to implement, than end-use efficiency, and sustainable renewables.
Fact: Efficiency, passive solar, DG, etc. are much more RELIABLE than centralized coal, and a vulnerable grid system. Note the impact of recent ice storms, etc…
Fact: AGW, and carbon regulations WILL make coal even less desireable in the near future. Smart investors, and smart utilities know that, and they’re staying away from coal.
Wrong Cosmos – coal-fired energy cost LESS.
Alternative forms of energy cost more than fossil fuels – even wind and solar are more expensive.
We don’t “store” electricity and with wind and solar – we lose our ‘constant base’ on calm days and cloudy days.
We need to continue our work on alternative sources – but what we have right now – wind and solar, are not competitive with fossil fuels. We wont be getting rid of coal-fired electricity or natural gas to heat and cool our homes anytime soon.
KSfarmgirl -
After reading your posts, it has become apparent that you became enraged when I pointed out your deception concerning the ‘transients.’
I answered your question – you avoided my response like the plague.
When you want to be honest – I’ll debate you. But as long as you keep trolling the threads – I’m not interested.
JR – there is a growing demand for electricity – hence the addition of so many proposed plants.
And the benefit to Western Ks is far greater than farmgirl alluded to:
————————–[quote]One of the 19 people testifying in favor of the project was Carol Meyer, President ofthe Garden City Chamber of Commerce. She outlined how Garden City wouldbenefit from the Holcomb Expansion Project, including 2,000 new jobs in westernKansas during construction and a tax boost of more than $1.7 million. She also saidonce the units are in operation, an estimated 400+ new direct and indirect full-timejobs will be created, with earnings of more than $22 million per year.[endquote]http://www.tristategt.org/NewsCenter/NewsItems/GenerationProjects-2005.pdf—————————-
Contrast that with farmgirl’s claims that only 51 persons would be on the payroll after completion and it’s obvious she has her head hidden in her Southern aperture.
You mention also the pollution concept.
It is believed that when completed – the Holcomb expansion will NOT exceed the mercury emissions that it currently has. And that is for three times the amount of energy produced.
TriState has received awards for their progress in clean coal-fired technology.
Those are just the facts.
farmgirl was also wrong on the economic issue – coal energy is cheap energy, albeit not the most heat energy efficient as I pointed out earlier.
Cosmos,
I stated facts. You stated opinions. Okay maybe water conservatin is a fact. Alternative energy is less reliable because it is not ENERGY UPON DEMAND. Wind farms are subsidized through tax credits otherwise they wouldn’t even make sense to build.
OMG, I am laughing so hard I can hardly breathe.
Carol Meyer?
HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE
I happen to know the stupidest woman in Garden City.
Do you?
HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE HEE
And GOSH, just IMAGINE that the head of the Garden City chamber thinks this holcomb plant is a good thing. Yeah, hehehe. Now THERE is a real credible source.
And you still didnt point out how many MULTIPLIER EFFECT benefits are in Meyer’s chamber of commerce cheerleading presentation.
Gee, what a surprise. I think I said early on that GEE sherri had been listening to too much chamber of commerce bullshit. I guess I was right.
“Wrong Cosmos – coal-fired energy cost LESS.”
“It is believed that when completed – the Holcomb expansion will NOT exceed the mercury emissions that it currently has.”
Could you please post some numbers to back up that statement? You keep making it, but not citing any sources or numbers. Until you back up your bullshit, they are just your opinions!
51 jobs? I never said that. But we know, facts and numbers arent your thing sherri.
SUNFLOWERS own freakin’ figures say LESS THAN fifty permanent jobs.
And, you dumbass, TRANSIENT workers are called, wait for it, TRANSIENT because they dont live in the community where they work.
So… they dont build houses, send their kids to school there, etc.
And (you dumbass) it isnt like there is ONE construction job that lasts TWO YEARS. Woof, do you even READ the shit you post?
TEMPORARY jobs rotate. According to the progress of the work schedule. SO… it isnt like 200 carpenters swarm into town, stay for two years, spend all their money, etc.
It is like this (you dumbass)!
A worker with specialized skills comes and does his part, then leaves. Then a DIFFERENT worker with DIFFERENT skills arrives, stays a while, and leaves.
Do you see ANY of these folks staying and building houses?
You dumbass. That is why they are called TEMPORARY jobs for TRANSIENT workers.
You refuted none of my statements sherri girl. Someone forgot to tell you to bring your A game in here. Your wild and unsubstantiated assertations, when not backed up with evidence, expose you for what you are.
A chamber shill.
Refute my statements dumbass.
Or do you just want to show your stupidity some more.
Please do. Dont let me stop you….
GEE sherri, I see you are reading comprehension challenged as well as facts challenged.
“farmgirl was also wrong on the economic issue – coal energy is cheap energy”
I NEVER said coal energy was cheap. Or not cheap.
What I DID say was that the economic loss of the water was a net LOSER for the region. Whatever economic benefit is obtained by Garden City with the temporary and permanent jobs stays with Garden City.
The region will experience a NET ECONOMIC LOSS, as the value of the lost water is far greater than the MULTIPLIER effect, (which you have yet to address) of the gains from construction.
And I see that you STILL havent explained your statement that when supplies increase, demand decreases.
You have made so many unfounded assertions on this thread, no wonder you were embarassed yesterday.
Oh, and we are still awaiting your white paper on kansas water law.
You know, the one you dont know jack shit about?
We WANT a plant in SEK.End of my participation in this thread.Hi KFG. This is fun, huh?
Still laughing that you think it is NEWS that the Garden City Chamber supports this project.
“She also saidonce the units are in operation, an estimated 400+ new direct and indirect full-timejobs will be created, with earnings of more than $22 million per year.”
Notice the little thing about “indirect” jobs.
That would be the magical and mystical multiplier effect.
Otherwise known as the best friend of EVERY lying economic development shill.
I see you NEVER did address it.
Or tell us how you got the water rights to your farm transfered without the state being notified.
You are long on bloviation and cheerleading sherri.
And VERY short on facts or answered questions.
heheheheh Tracy.
No, very sad. Gee Sherri pontificates like she is a real authority on stuff she CLEARLY doesnt understand.
Then she is pissed when her logical fallacies and lack of facts are exposed.
As you would say Tracy, “pitiful. just pitiful”
Oh, and btw sherri, we are still waiting for you to post YOUR economics credentials…..
ksfg, thank you for pointing out something I meant to address earlier, to wit: the transient nature of the construction jobs.
On the transfer of GS’ water rights; I suspect that was handled by the closing agent, realtor or whomever, contacting the state to obtain the transfer; I’ve seen that occur in many closings, and frankly, the buyer had no knowledge of how it occurred, just that it did.
Yes VT. And just because gee sherri didnt KNOW how it was done, doesnt mean it WASNT done.
I guess she thinks if SHE didnt do it, no one did.
I dont find that out of line with her regular postings.
Damn this is fun just watching this debate. If you’re scoring at home, I have it Farm Grrl 100 – Gee Sure 0.
Apparently Russell drop out of the session due to brain cramps.
Wow – I’m so glad I got a chance to come back and watch KFG stomp her feet and pout again.
Vaughn – there were likely papers filed that addressed the issue, but that was not the point I was trying to make – the rights transfered to us when we purchased the farm. We have since taken it out of corn production and, if I am correct, the rights have ‘retired.
KFG – I did answer your question – you’re just too full of yourself to admit it. You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. None of your statements are correct- and you get all pissy when I post the evidence proving your little more than a troll.
I’ve rarely found someone so stuck on herself, and with so little reason to be, on boards.
And you are SO transparent. lol First you state that the economy would not be bolstered in Western KS – and then you sloppily attempt to say that “of course, the Garden City Chamber ” wants the deal.
So which is it? Why would they want it? I know it’s tough for you, but try putting two and two together……… Do you thnk they are fighting for it because it wont enhance business?
Now that’s funny.
You need to educate yourself on the issue – then come back and discuss. I feel as though I’m talking to a little freshman girl with her nose in the air.
Here is the link showing the cost of alternative energy in relation to fossil fuel.
http://analysisonline.org/energy/lee.html
Now that KsFarmGirl has been disproved at every single turn – one saying popped into my head – and it describes her to a “T.”
ALL HAT – NO CATTLE.
Funny, I didn’t know blogs were about contests. I thought it was about people expressing their opinions on a wide variety of subjects.
I suppose the emotionally bankrupt would consider blogs a contest though.
A little education from the above link:
Read and learn.
[quote]“Renewable energy sources also pose a number of major challenges:
* Wind – Locating land sites, and gaining approval over local objection, is a major hurtle. An offshore wind farm in Massachusetts, for example, takes 24 square miles of area.
* The grid – Renewable fuels that produce electricity must be integrated with the existing grid. This is technically possible, but will take a substantial investment, Lee said. “We need to develop a complex infrastructure and a more efficient production process.”
* Nuclear – Development of nuclear energy, stalled since the Three Mile Island accident, must develop more public trust in order to get jump-started in the , Lee said. “The public is uneasy about the nuclear option; and as long as the public is uneasy about it, the economics are not going to be there for new nuclear plants,” he said.
* Hydrogen – Most hydrogen produced today is derived either from coal or natural gas, not renewable sources. A hydrogen economy would require design and production technologies that require less energy.”[end quote]
The reason the new coal plants are necessary, from the Energy Information Administration.
Read the stats.
“Summary
In 2005, the coal industry experienced record production as well as record coal consumption. Although total coal exports continued to expand for the year, coal imports again reached a level resulting in a decline in net exports for 2005. Delivered coal prices continued to increase, while export prices reached new heights. Coal stocks declined in the electric power sector, while increasing in the other consuming sectors. Factors contributing to increased coal demand and production in 2006 (see Energy Information Administration’s Short-Term Energy Outlook) include:
+Continued economic expansion+Increases in electric power coal stockpiles+Continued recovery in coal exports+Completion of coke plant projects+Return to normal weather patterns (colder winter weather)+Elevated natural gas prices
With increasing economic growth pushing coal consumption higher, the replenishment of coal stocks at electric power plants from their currently low levels, as well as increases in coal exports, coal production could reach another record level in 2006. Given the general tightness in markets, both consumers and producers will continue to pay close attention to developments affecting coal transportation.”
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/special/feature.html
JM – I’ve noticed that to some folks it really IS a big competition.
As if they are going to change minds with their vulgar mouth that spew putrid verbal vomit every time they open them.
Look closely and you will find that KSFarmGirl looses her cool – REALLY quickly.
It lessens her.
GSheridan,
Why did you claim the Sierra Club spread “blatant lies”, when they quoted Holcomb’s water specs?
Higher end-use efficiency IS the CHEAPEST “source”. Look it up. Negawatts — and it adds up by saving ALL the energy lost at the plant, grid wires, distribution, etc.
I assume you know that new coal plants have a 40+ year lifetime?
Wind is competitive with coal today. Future carbon taxes will make coal more expensive. Carbon regulations may eventually raise coal electricity costs 40%, or more.
GSheridan: “TriState has received awards for their progress in clean coal-fired technology.”
Are they sequestering the CO2?A 500 megawatt coal plant emits roughly the same amount of GHG’s as 600,000 cars.
Holcomb’s three new 700 MW plants is roughly like adding 2.5 MILLION cars to the area — AND those cars will be driving around for the next 40+ years.
Ralph,
Suppose I design my home to use passive solar for heating, efficiency, and a photovoltaic system.
Are you claiming my setup is less “reliable” than my neighbors during a massive ice storm that shuts down the grid for many weeks?
Uh Sherri, you have YET to address the multiplier effect.
The last time I checked, the garden city economy was DIFFERENT from the economy of western kansas.
OF course g.c. wants it. That doesnt meant it is good for western kansas.
And as to the costs? I went to your link. Here is what I found:
“The cost of alternative energy sources is a major barrier: In order to produce electricity, natural gas costs about 2.3 to 5 cents per kilowatt hour; wind costs 5 to 7 cents per kilowatt hour; and solar power skyrockets from 25 to 50 cents per kilowatt hour.
“Wind is pretty close to being economic, but wind doesn’t blow all the time,” Lee said. And electricity cannot be stored in large amounts.”
So sherri, real slow for you now, your own link proves NOTHING about the cost of coal. It isnt even ADDRESSED in your link.
And yet you think it proves this statement? “farmgirl was also wrong on the economic issue – coal energy is cheap energy”
YOUR link doesnt mention the cost of coal energy, so, um, it proves your statement how?
I dont see ANY of my statements that have been disproven. Please, I know I am slow and stupid, but point out WHICH of my statements you have refuted? With facts, not just your opinion?
Still waiting for you to post your economics credentials.
Still waiting for you to admit that your water rights didnt MAGICALLY transfer with the property purchase.
Here is what vaughn said’ “I suspect that was handled by the closing agent, realtor or whomever, contacting the state to obtain the transfer”
and here is what you said: “I purchased a farm – the irrigation rights transfered from the seller -to me.”
See the difference? Of course, VT only has a law license.
And you? Still waiting on those economics credentials…
Still waiting for you to address the temporary and transient jobs issues.
“Contrast that with farmgirl’s claims that only 51 persons would be on the payroll after completion”
You still havent posted where I said that.
Sherri, you are wrong and have been proven so. You havent backed up ANYTHING you have said. Or refuted my statements of fact.
GSheridan,
From your own link, re oil, but it applies to electricty also.http://analysisonline.org/energy/lee.html“Energy conservation is the first step toward reducing this problem, Lee said.
“Investment in improved energy efficiency has three attractive characteristics: It is the least expensive; it has enormous potential; and efficiency enjoys political popularity,” he said. “
and as for personal attacks and your STUNNED take on my posts.
hee hee hee hee
Go back and read this thread from the beginning. YOU started the personal attacks with this:
“KSFgirl – you could use an Econ 101 class.”
and then continued on with this:
“Grad work in Economics?
Where? At YouBuyEmCheapDegrees University?
You are a certifiable NUT!
I can’t figure out why anyone on this board would respond to you.
You have GOT to be the most childish imbecile here. By a LONG shot. And that’s a tough category to top.
If you can come down from whatever drug du-jour you’re on – and post like an adult – I’ll be happy to debate this with you.
But you’re starting to sound a LOT like Fred Phelps – Kansas leading Democrat.
Is that who you are in disguise?
Come on – you can tell us.
We’re all ears.”
hee hee hee hee.
AND, after you clearly started the personal attack on me, you have the freakin’ gall to say you are stunned by my vitriol and personal attacks?
Hmmmm…..
You just dont like to be called out and proven to be the ignorant bloviating dumb ass chamber of commerce and coal plant shill that you are.
Address the unaddressed points sherri. That ought to keep you busy enough to stop bothering the educated adults here.
And in case you are too stupid to understand… THAT is a personal attack.
“TriState has received awards for their progress in clean coal-fired technology.”
Yeah cos, dont forget. Her husband worked for them when he was 14. AND she had an undocumented conversation with some unnamed computer jock who worked for the same company.
I guess that makes her unsubstantiated bloviating her “EXPERT” opinion.
heheheheheheheheheheeheheheheheheh
“Why did you claim the Sierra Club spread “blatant lies”, when they quoted Holcomb’s water specs?”
Thanks for the reminder cos of yet another unsubstantiated bloviation from sherri that was proven wrong. With sunflower’s own figures.
Care to comment or back up your bullshit sherri?
Cosmos,
That’s pretty lame justification to substantiate your perspective as to what is or isn’t reliable.
KFG- Don’t take any prisoners:
you have to feed ‘em and then they crap all over the place.
But you probably knew this.
Carry-on!
Farmgirl – are you stalking me now? You want to know my credentials?
You flatter yourself that I would even consider sharing anything like that with you. I wouldn’t.
So far – you’re batting an absolute ZERO. You’ve claimed an education in Economics yet you don’t have an inkling about them.
You are silly enough to hope folks think 1400 workers will live in hotels and eat sandwiches.
I really doubt anyone here is dumb enough to buy that.
You know absolutely NOTHING about the construction process of a power plant.
You still refuse to educate yourself – just continue with your mindless rants, on and on and on.
I will reiterate -
ALL HAT – NO CATTLE.
That’s you my dear.In spades.
hee hee hee hee hee
When you address all the unsubstantiated statements and unaddressed points, someone MIGHT take you seriously sherri.
I dont give a rat’s ass about your credentials. You questioned mine, so I asked you to produce yours.
heheheheh
Real slow. M-U-L-T-I-P-L-I-E-R
An economics expert like you should be able to address that right?
Along with all the other unsubstantiated claims, wild opinions, and, lest we forget:
“with their vulgar mouth that spew putrid verbal vomit every time they open them.”
YOUR personal attacks.
Seems to me, peg leg, you dont have a leg to stand on…..
Oh, and btw, those “1400 workers” will, in fact, be HOW MANY transients? And yes, the transient and temporary workers DO live in hotels.
As for sandwiches, my bad. I know they do go for chili dogs, potato chips and, of course, beer.
JUST the kind of expenditures I would be willing to trade the water in western kansas for…
IF I was the head of the garden city chamber.
HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHHEHEEHEHEHEHEH!
Oh and sherri, the undisputed guru of facts and numbers on the blog…
I see russell and JM are your only supporters.
HEE HEE HEE
I guess that must be a reflection of how your oh so intelligent mistatements are changing hearts and minds and bringing them over to YOUR side…..
Darn, lunch posting is over so soon, and I wanted to watch KsFarmGirl’s NEW meltdown.
Guess I’ll just have to come back in the morning and see what kind of hissy fit she threw.
To the rest of you liberals on this board – it really detracts from your integrity when you attempt to tie your kite string to a loon like KFG.
So far – you guys make pretty good sense compared to her. Are you just intimidated by her filthy mouth? Couldn’t be intimidated by her brain – she doesn’t have one.
The dynamics here are fascinating.
Maybe I’ll bring a saucer of milk for you, KFG, tomorrow.
Bet you’ll like that.
Let’s see, you have, um, HOW many supporters here?
hehehehehheehheeheheheheheheheh
Oh yeah. My supporters are just not as wise as you and nutz. They are just a buncha weak cowards who are intimidated by me.
Nice. Every time you insult my supporters, you bring so many people over to your side……
YOU, oh economics and power plant construction guru, and just too smart to be fooled by me. THEY are just too stupid to bow to your obvious superiority.
And if they dont know how stupid they are for not supporting you? You are ever so glad to tell them.
HEE HEE HEE HE HEHEHEHEHEHEHEH HEE!
For all your talk about rants, meltdowns, spewing, etc…..
….I just see that coming from you.
Still waiting for you to post your credentials, refute my facts, defend your bloviating with facts….
untill then?
(Cue crickets chirping)
“The dynamics here are fascinating.”
Oh yeah, when you are so superior and above it all, your queenly observations about us mere mortals is the source we should all seek?
hee hee hee hee hee
Nothing facinating here except how far one person will go to humiliate themselves when they have been proven to be berift of facts, numbers, substantiation, supporters…..
“To the rest of you liberals on this board – it really detracts from your integrity when you attempt to tie your kite string to a loon like KFG”
uh, integrity would be, um, not lying?
And YOU are talking about integrity?
Six impossible things before breakfast.
Your lies are well known and well documented and refuted by SEVERAL others, not just me.
But please, continue to lecture us about integrity.
Just like you lectured us on economics….. With,um, WHAT credentials?
GSheridan,
“You are silly enough to hope folks think 1400 workers will live in hotels and eat sandwiches.”
Please comment re all the motels and trailers that will be needed.
http://www.holcombstation.coop/Benefits/Gamble_Study.pdfPage 14,”… western Kansas: 20% motels @$40/day, 5 days per week, no trailers. Kansas: 60% motels @$60/day, 20% trailers, and 20% commute. Motel, 5 days/wk. Trailering, 7 days/wk. OUTSTATE: 70% trailers, 7 days/wk, 30% motels, 5.5 days/wk.”
And WHY did you falsely accuse the Sierra Club of “blatant lies”…??
KFG- Just what kind of loon have you become?
I’m bird challenged, among other things.
Yeowie – she’s in full melt-down today. The crustiness of her language is reaching a new low.
hee hee hee gster
I must have become the factual loon. The sherrious hateous economicus loon apparantly.
As opposed to, well, you know which loon.
See how easily intimidated you are gster?
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
Ralph,
So being able to live comfortably off-grid (and even sell excess electricity to the utility company) is “lame”?
Complaints about language
The last refuge of the utterly humiliated and the totally wrong
Your contribution to the discussion would be…?
Wassa matter stud muffin? You had to come over here with yer doc seuss books ’cause no one was paying attention to you on the other threads?
here ya go “little” boy, you lady killer you. Some attention from mamma……
?? Was I just looned??
Hee hee cosmos
It is “lame” if you own utility stocks or oil interests or irrigate corn…
gster, better to be a loonor than a loonee, no?
It’ll be fun watching GSheridan argue that people who live in motels and trailers are not “transient” workers.
On the lighter side……You may be a redneck IF,you’ve ever done your own dental work.
Balls, we LIKE crustiness.Why ya’ think I call ya’ Balls.I know KFG, she ain’t in no meltdown. Far from it.She’s here for you big wimpy pussies that THINK you play rough.HA!
Thanks Tracy.
I am just HOWLING about the meltdown and manic comments.
Where is JR with that big sharp stick when ya need him? heheheheheh
hee hee hee cosmos
Maybe they will park those trailers right next to all the homes they are building?
I see gee sherri has read all the chamber bullshit and none of sunflower’s OWN bullshit.
SUNFLOWER says those workers will live in trailers and motels.
SUNFLOWER says they will use 30,000 acre feet of water per year.
But then, I guess gee sherri knows best, eh?
Heheheheheheheheheheheheheehehheheh
KFG- Since you have recently become “birdly”, could you use your pull and get me Chicken Man’s autograph?
My life then would be nearly complete!
Sorry, I only truck with birds of my own kind gster. You know, the whole homo thing. You have to find a hetero loon with chicken tendencies to help you out.
Now then, I COULD help with chicken tenders….
I’ve got to admire a loon with standards- impressive!
gster..bawk bawk, bawk BAWK!He’s everywhere!He’s everywhere!
Tracy-Those were the days!
I thought that would bring you out.
First I’m looned, and then mooned by the Winged Warrior- what could be next?
heheheheheheheeh
yep, that’s me.
Loon standards!
My poor dead mother would probably agree!!!!!!
KFG- I meant a loon with standards, not a standard loon!
Important distinction!
hee hee gster.
I do indeed have standards, and I am a loon, so I see your point.
However, I must repeat that I am also, indeed, a standard loon. Except for my knees of course. They are now after market, not OEM.