People are buzzing belatedly about President Bush’s use of the word “articulate” in describing Sen. Barack Obama last week — a day after Sen. Joe Biden also had used the word, though he understandably got more attention for “clean.” This New York Times piece explains that “when whites use the word in reference to blacks, it often carries a subtext of amazement, even bewilderment.” Author Lynette Clemetson went on: “Such a subtext is inherently offensive because it suggests that the recipient of the ‘compliment’ is notably different from other black people.”
Her advice to well-meaning whites: “Do not use it as the primary attribute of note for a black person if you would not use it for a similarly talented, skilled or eloquent white person.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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114 Comments
So, being articulate, if ‘white’ does not differentiate the person receiving the compliment from other ‘whites’?
When, oh when, will we every get over the mess resultant from slavery?
Vaughn Tolle,
Never, probably. 300+ years doesn’t go away in 150, particularly when many among the formerly enslaved are still being disenfranchised.
I interview people at times. One of the comments I make in my evaluation has to with whether they are articulate or not.
Complete, total, looking for something to be offended at, nonsense.
I agree outlander, VT. We have gotten crazy when “that was a very articulate arguement you formulated” becomes an insult.
CF, as usual, big time disagrees. Check out the testimonials!
http://blackpeopleloveus.com/
Silliness
ROFLMAO
Okay, I guess we need to add “articulate” to the list of racist, hate terms.’
And, damn – to think I was actually pleased when my debate coach use that word to describe me.
I should have sued the entire school. The AUDACITY of some teachers. And I just let it slide – more Debate Champs after me probably got treated the same derogatory way.
I hang my head in shame for not reporting the crime.
I add my agreement to the posts by Vaughn, Outlander, GSheridan.
Why is it not possible to just make a nice comment about someone without it being sliced, diced and reassembled into something it was never intended?
Oh yeah, we’re dealing with liberals – that’s why.
While we wait for the world to view black and white people in the same way and not judge them by the color of their skin, we are accosted with something as ridiculous as this. The real issues go unanswered and we have a battle over words. Will this never go away. Slavery was a deplorable thing that never should have happened and it should be detested by all. When I see something like this make headlines I know there are those among us that will never let this die. Maybe our children will do a better job than we have.
Apparently some people have difficulty understanding the notion of “context.” This probably won’t help:
“I mean, you got the first mainstream woman who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking gal,” he said. “I mean, that’s a storybook, man.”
I’m sure Hillary would be flattered (to say nothing of Carol Moseley Braun).
“..300+ years doesn’t go away in 150, particularly when many among the formerly enslaved are still being disenfranchised.”
Whoa, there are people among us that were formerly enslaved?
Please CF – please show me these people.
I see Golfnutz is being as anal as the people buzzing about this.
If Obama didn’t take the comments unkindly, why should I?
Then again, I’m surprised Dubya knows how to pronounce the word and question if he understands the definition. I seriously doubt he can spell it without help.
Veritably every post so far proves the case that overt racism can’t hold a candle to the danger of the incipient midwestern version exhibited by this crowd.
I was born and raised around here and lived in the deepest south most of my adult life. I have always contended that midwesterners are light years ahead of the south in terms of being racist. At least southerners had the balls to be overt about it.
The midwest version (like these posts) is the worst kind…Oh gee what’s wrong with articlulate…or well spoken? I’d be happy if somebody called me articulate…”They” should be proud…blah blah blah. When was the last time anybody white was referred to as articulate or well spoken.
Everybody here knows damn good and well that when “he is so articulate” is the compliment given to a black person what is really meant (about 99% of the time) is “he is so articulate…for a nigger”
Liberals?…you midwest neocons trying to pass for big believers in racial equality is the big joke here.
“If Obama didn’t take the comments unkindly, why should I?”
I agree that’s ultimately a tempest in a teapot (BTW, I was a Biden supporter in ‘88). What bothers me is the number of intelligent people on this blog who seem incapable of grasping the obvious.
Sheesh, out&outliar has to evaluate whether someone else is “articulate”?
Isn’t that like Jerry Lewis evaluating whether Joe Montana can throw a football?
And the CONs say we libs have no sense of humor . . . you know, they might be right.
Consider George W. passing judgement on ANYBODY as to their articulate-ness.
Now THAT’S funny!
Roxie,The point is: there are no “former slaves” in our society. If anyone of the “formerly enslaved” (read: black people) feel disenfranchised, I suggest they review all the free stuff they get (i.e. 12 years of public education) and put it to good use.
Stop being a victim. Take control of your life. It’s the same thing the rest of us do – without all the whining.
bush is not much of a reputable arbiter in the matter of whether or not someone is articulate!
Okay, let the Democratic Party in Congress and the Senate pass a resolution never to call a Black man articulate.
And to think I was starting to like and support Obama. I do believe he just lost several hundred thousands votes with that display of his personality.
Aghast,I’m very well educated. I speak before groups of customers, clients, workers and executives regularly.
When someone says I’m articulate – I’m pleased, and I say “thank you.”
Happens all the time, too.
“And to think I was starting to like and support Obama. I do believe he just lost several hundred thousands votes with that display of his personality.”
How DARE Obama have something said about him which was criticized by other people!
Thanks for sharing. . .I needed the laugh!
Aghast,
Indeed. The blatherings of white midwestern Republicans about race make CF’s eyes glaze over. I’ve lived in LA, Seattle, and Memphis, and this place is WAY more racist and hostile to black folks than any of those places.
My mixed-race son was never called a nigger until an elderly white woman in a car here in Wichita yelled at him to get out of her way. My African-American ex-girlfriend from Memphis never had a white person use the word around her until the white owner of the Shamrock referred to someone working on his boat as a ‘boat nigger.’
This place is racist as hell. The denial that’s apparent on this board speaks volumes.
KSGolfnut,
What an idiot you are. Of course no former slaves exist. Duh. We’re talking about their DESCENDANTS.
Refuse to accept the continued ‘disenfranchisement’ of the descendants of those who were ‘formerly enslaved?’ OK. Read it and weep:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/jun2001/ccr-j08.shtml
I trust you’ll understand when, in the future, I call you a moron who is clueless as to how moronic he is.
Given the precision of the GOP spin machine (Frank Luntz is YOUR guy) and their careful honing of racist code language over the last thirty years (”states’ rights,” anyone?), it’s typically fanciful to hear you accuse liberals of doing what you yourselves have perfected.
No wonder Republicans spend so much time blaming the victim; it absolves them of taking responsibilty for their own racism.
This is just as ridiculous as the Biden comment.
People are WAY too sensitive about stupid stuff.
Such as, would articulate describe Bush? I think not, but I don’t think of it as a racist term!
INARTICULATE has been often used to describe Bush.
KSGolfnut,
And to pre-empt any attempt by you to discredit my link, here’s the same U.S. Civil Rights Commission report accessible through a U.S. government link.
http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm
I thought the real criticism of Biden’s comment came from Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. I didn’t think Obama took offense at the comment or did I miss something?
Of course Jackson and Sharpton will take any comment as being racially motivated. That’s where they both came from – the civil rights movement.
I just find it humorous that GWB has to say the same thing the next day. Sounds to me like George needs a few lessons in articulation before he says anything about anybody else. but I guess that’s GWB’s attraction to his supporters, they like that downhome cowboy sayings that does not make any sense.
CF son, I suppose no one has described your son as articulate then.
Tell him not to ever take speech class as they might ask him to articulate. We all would hate to see another court case by the ACLU.
Yes, Political Mom, Bush has been identified as inarticulate. Even his wife gets on to him about his Texanisms and Texan pronunciations of words.
Harse, eyes scream and crik (creek) are often spoken south of the Red River. No in Texas ever blinks an eye about it.
Get a Bostonian and ask him/her to pronounce car or bar and there you have it.
Eier,
Your comment was as offensive as it was meaningless. I’ll give you chance to retract it.
Sorry, I’ll give you chance to retract it.
CF, I think I remember that you had mentioned having a mixed race son, but had forgotten. Undoubtedly that fact makes you sensitive to these matters.
Do you suppose that you would think the same about it if not for you son? Rhetorical question.
I still think that worrying that you might offend with each word is a distraction rather than a productive way to combat racism. But I will keep your unique (for this board) viewpoint in mind when these matters come up.
CF,
Then don’t use your son as a banner in a debate. You are at fault using him as some flag toy to your advantage.
You need to apologize to your son.
I’ll say again, as a liberal, those who cry discrimination where there is none, will be dismissed when real discrimination appears.
Crying wolf needlessly only hurts those who are being attacked by the wolf.
CF,Per typical liberal (i.e. DA), you can’t make an argument without using inflamatory language, name calling or outright profanity.
Secondly, you’re referencing a six year old report. Have some changes been made in Florida since the 2000 election? Plus, if a voter does not properly cast his vote, for whatever reason his ballot might be rejected, then he is simply too stupid to vote – INDEPENDENT of his race.
Honestly, I don’t want people who can’t follow simple directions picking our elected officials. If that’s your example of “disenfranchisement”…I think we can safely put that issue to bed.
What else ya got?
Outlander, fair enough.
It is worth noting that my son often hears that “he doesn’t speak like a black person.” He finds this highly offensive. I follow his cue, since I defer to his sense of whether the ‘complement’ contains an implicit judgment against blackness as such.
Eier,
The only people who need to apologize to my son are the racists who presume to know how he talks or to tell him how to behave. People like you, Eier.
You’ve made an enemy here today. Not an opponent: an enemy.
Moreover, CF -If this place is so gawd-awful, why do you live here?
KSGolfnut,
If you can’t refute the findings of systematic discrimination in Florida, in which black voters were ten times more likely to have their votes disqualified, then I win.
No refutation? Guess I win.
CF,
Maybe this black man doesn’t need to provide you with an excuse using the “poor me” method of debating.
You make your own enemies CF by your own design and methods.
Black humans are more likely to be murdered, too. Does that mean our society disenfranchises black folk by not offering them better police protection?
I have to say this. I’ve been taking a lot of phone calls in my new job, and I have to say, you can usually tell the race of the person on the other end of the line, and it drives me bonkers. If we want to end the stereotypes, we’ve got to quit living the stereotypes.
I hate to say that, but it’s true.
Yes whites can talk like that too, but even comedians poke fun at the differences, and you can’t deny it.
Next time someone calls and says “can I axe you a question”, I think I’ll pull my hair out.
where the hell did that come from anyway? AXE!? If someone calls me and says that, I’m assuming he’s black.
And when a twangy guy says ‘yes em’ I assume he wears a cowboy hat and drives a big truck.
And when a person speaks to me in a heavy spanish accent, I think they’re hispanic.
99% of the time I’m right.
Eier,
Maybe YOU need to pause before employing racist sterotypes to discredit someone you’ve never met, and to pre-emptorily blame them for bringing racist attacks on themselves.
I’m guessing my son is fine with me calling you out for the attitudes you’ve expressed. After all, he’s the one who’s had to bear the brunt of them.
Err Head–
White or black, you’re not very articulate.
Goof Nut–”When someone says I’m articulate – I’m pleased, and I say ‘thank you.’”
Actually, what they mean by that is “we’re astonished that a scum-sucking reich-winger like you can put two words together.”
out&outliar–I don’t have a black son, and I’m outraged that Worst. President. Ever. would use the word while referring to Obama, particularly after the hue-and-cry when Biden said it.
No excuse for this damning with faint praise.
You’re like those whites who think that Martin Luther King is “their” holiday or that civil rights was about “negro” rights.
It was about AMERICAN rights.
Case in point: Chappell.
I love it when he talks like a white person.
“he doesn’t speak like a black person.”
My 14 yr old daughter’s best friend is black. They’re in many of the same classes in school. About two months ago, they were working on a joint project at my house which involved an oral presentation. They practiced with me as the audience, and I commented to both of them that the presentation was great: excellent use of vocabulary, voice inflection, hand gestures, etc. And the friend said to me, “yes, I do my best to sound like an educated person, not the typical black person from the ghetto.”
If I had said to her, “you don’t sound black” – I’m sure she would have laughed. Maybe we need a little more of THAT and less “highly offensive”. We would certainly continue to progress more rapidly.
Did you notice that when you read these various posts, you can “hear” the accents?
Political Mom,
My grandmother (country gal) gave me a whompin’ when I made fun of here saying “aks” or “ax.”
She said to me, “dunna makes me ax you again!”
I(city boy) replied with, “Grandmama! Please don’t give me an axing I’ll be good!”
A memorable experience (smile.)
I assume that the term “ax” or “aks” come from those exposed to country living style; those isolated from white populations, living in an all black neighborhood like my grandmama.
Eier means ‘eggs’ in German. And the name on his type key account is “Buff.”
Knew a tennis player once that wore pastel sweaters around his shoulders we called Buff.
Just saying . . .
Oh man, PMom, thanks for the laugh. I PURPOSELY say “axe” just to keep it light and pithy around the house.
I should have said that to CF at the blog meeting. “CF, I been meaning to axe you something…”
Eier, I’m from a VERY southern speaking family, and we never said the axe…
But I WILL tell you what we did say …
I toed you.
Drives me nuts too. My dad says that all the time and I ask “did you wear socks”…he never seems to get it.
KSGolfnut,
Um, it’s ‘ax.’
ax, axe, acks, aks..
isn’t it all the same?
p_mom–
It’s called a dialect. Everybody has one.
It’s just that when you speak the “majority” dialect like I do, you get to look down on the rubes and hayseeds that say “ten” as “tin” and “wHy” as “wy.”
Go to England, and they’ll make fun of your accent.
I don’t make fun of Bush because of his dialect. I make fun of him because his ideas are idiotic and he’s ruining the country.
I’m not meaning to sound racist, I realize that my comments may be construed as such, and I hate it that it’s that way. I really really do.
I have blacks in my family, and one of my family members when pregnant was going to name her child a very ‘ethnic’ sounding name. I told her flat out that I thought that would automatically disadvantage the child and set them up to be discriminated against.
Was I wrong? Or is it wrong that she should HAVE to pick a name that sounds more ‘white’ in order to get ahead?
Right on target about the name CapnAmerica. Long story, won’t get into that here.
The BUFF name comes from my re-fueling days of a certain type of SAC aircraft, the B-52. It stood for Big Ugly Flying Fellow. But that was the polite term (smile.)
Ah, a veteran.
Okay, I’ll have to cut you some slack then.
(Because of your service to your country.)
funny – I think Bush was really saying that he was articulate – considering Bush is anything but.
and I’m a Bush fan!!!
CF,Curiously, what made you hook up with a black chick anyway? You had a child together, but failed to get married – why is that? Did the difference in your races have any impact on that decision?
Right, p_mom.
Consider “Oprah.”
You could never stand a chance with that name.
It’s only disadvantageous about using ethnically associated names when your child has to go through life re-spelling and re-pronouncing the name several times.
It’s no difference than some foreign names that American adopt; like Shaun for Sean; the spelling of Muler for the German Mueller; the French pronunciation of Robert; or the Spanish spelling of Jorge for George.
If the parents like it, then its okay.
Yeah, with a name like Dave…
I cannot BEGIN to express the trouble I’ve had to endure over the years…
A freakin’ nightmare, I tell you. NIGHTMARE!
I wouldn’t have assumed Oprah to be a black name till Oprah herself came about.
It’s actually a pretty name-kindof like Opera.
Would Oprah had come as far as she did if she said AXE?
From what I understand, most news personalities, no matter where they come from, they have to lose their accents. I remember seeing some gal from up north who had to take classes to change how she spoke to land a job for a major network.
Oh shut up Dave.
lol.
PMom,Uh, it’s ‘ax.’
Please check with CF before using black jargon. He’s the gate keeper.
“I’m very well educated. I speak before groups of customers, clients, workers and executives regularly.”
Is “Do you want fries with that?” considered articulate? I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks for clearing that up, Nutz.
Eier sure sounds like JM, doesn’t he?
Did JM come to the meetup last time?
Roxie,It’s “Would you care for some of our delicious french fried potatoes with your sandwich, please?”
Damned, hillbillies.
It’s my axe and I’ll spell how I want to….
And Dave, I like CF just fine. He can correct me, but …by my sources say both spellings are correct.
ax 1 or axe (?ks) Pronunciation Keyn. pl. ax·es (?k’s?z)
A tool with a bladed, usually heavy head mounted crosswise on a handle, used for felling trees or chopping wood.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/axe
Not just newscasters but actors as well. Can you imagine Nicole Kidman in Cold Mountain with an Aussie accent.
Also why is it that only formerly enslaved people (blacks) can use that excuse for perpetuating the cycle that seems to encourage welfare assistance because of race. (We hear of welfare momma’s are black women popping out babies in order to get more money from the system.)I can’t remember anything about hearing the excuse of being ancestors being enslaved by Irish, or Native Americans. (Yes, both ethnicities were enslaved by others – usually as a spoil of war)So why is it that only blacks are repressed and called awful names because of their ancestors being enslaved?To me repression does not equal racism so why are they pulling the racism card?
HEY! Don’t be hating on the hillbillies!
Eier, were you another “trained killer from SAC”? :-) Thanks for the ‘clean’ version of BUFF re: B-52; I didn’t know that one.
And remember: “To err is human; to forgive is not SAC policy”.
Oh good lord, PMom, I would never in 10,000 years expect you to stray too far from CF. Birds of a feather…
Well Julie, first of all, there wasn’t a systematic push to keep them segregated from the rest of society for centuries.
And I would say if it weren’t for the casino indians, they would still be very oppressed as well.
I would argue that being redheaded isn’t quite the same as being black.
However, asians don’t seem to have the repression problem as much.
Hi Vaughn Tolle,
Yes, I was the frozen “mosquito wing” seemingly permanently attached to a B-52 as a hood ornament. Back in the day of green fatigues and 1505’s (tan uniform.) That’s how I ordered my coffee at the Club (1505 – with fresh cream.)
Julie–Was that a serious question?
Yes, every ethnicity experienced some form of indentured servitude or another.
But whites could eventually escape it because, duh, they were white.
Blacks who looked black were continually discriminated against. In fact, racism was more virulent and widespread after the Civil War than before.
Unlike the people who say that “everything will just naturally get better all by itself,” institutionalized racism increased both in the North and South from the 1870’s until the 20’s.
See “Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong” Chapter 5, James W. Loewen
Ah, 1505s; remember them (and the green fatigues) well. Figured you were a boomer from an earlier post. I, however, flew a desk for four years.
PMom,Ok I can see the segregation thing but then again women were also treated like second or third class citizens for an extended period of history. So why is it just a racial thing? Oprah had a whole lot of obstacles in her life and she went through some real difficult times. Why did she succeed? She persevered and did it. If Oprah could overcome her trials and tribulations then why can’t others? (Not just blacks but any color?)I hear excuses after excuses on why people act stupidly. Well my parents didn’t send me to college (ever hear of a personal loan?). I grew up poor (so get a job and earn money!)A friend of mine conned me into it (don’t listen to that friend anymore)Somebody asked me to hold it for them (so you knowingly took an unknown substance / pill that you did not have a prescription for and were in possession of said substance/pill)I feel that we as a society have become nothing but excuses and it is someone else’s fault when we screw up.
If Oprah could overcome her trials and tribulations then why can’t others? (Not just blacks but any color?)
Yeah, good question, Julie?
Why can’t you do it?
Why can’t you be the senator from Kansas or sing for the Met or play for the Boston Celtics while you’re at it?
Just because one person can do it, doesn’t mean anybody else can . . .
You notice that nobody from Somalia ever wins the Nobel Prize for Physics?
Why is that, Julie?
Don’t they TRY hard enough there?
Oh no, I firmly believe the segment of the black population that is “repressed” – is because they CHOOSE to be repressed.
Countless members of that population are hugely successful. The aforementioned best friend of my daughter – her dad is a surgeon, and her mother is an RN. I’ve worked with countless black engineers, marketers, accountants… Those that are continually OFFENDED are the ones that can’t seem to get unrepressed. In fact, I would submit that they WANT to be repressed (ergo: the victim).
Because not the same conditions exist for people. Women STILL make 70 some cents less per hour than men on average.
What is obviously missing, are the volume of Oprahs and Obamas.
Why are they heralded as being an example when they are so rare?
BTW, Julie, who’s fault is it when Bush sends troops into Iraq for Weapons of Mass Destruction?
When does he have to take responsibility and “stop making excuses”?
Just wondering . . .
Hillbilly? Nope. Flatlander here. Although fairly well-traveled.
—-
The speech of midwesterners seems to be the most sought after by the media. Now if these converts to flat accent would just learn how to pronounce Cheney (as in the city), Arkansas City (not ar’-kan-saw), Ninnescah (not nin-nes’-scah), and others, they’d have it made.
Oh there you go on the victim thing again Golf. So damn easy for you to say, upper middle class white man.
My opinion only and obviously bashable, but I think Oprah made it because she’s black. She has learned to build on it. That’s not a putdown by me. Using a perceived weakness to make an advantage is a strength.
Women earn less than men because they WILL work for less than men. I’ve proven that to you 3-4 times, PMom. Would you like to shoot for #5?
It’s not the environment, it’s the nature of business and economics, laws of supply and demand, worker productivity…
Those that feel repressed because of “the environment” or “the system” are just doing what they do best – be a victim.
No Julie. A person can’t amount to anything in this country, so don’t even try. The system is against you. The government doesn’t care. This isn’t really the land of opportunity. Your IQ isn’t high enough. Your education is inadequate. You’re a woman. You’re a minority. You won’t get a fair shake. The world owes you a living, so just wait it out. That about get it Capn?
Hearing crap like that gives everyone an idea of what the far left is about. It is about minding your place and not striving for better. It is exactly the opposite of what this country was founded on and what it remains today.
I wish there were more Obama’s and Oprah’s (maybe if we all had names that began with O) :)Cap’n -In earlier threads Hank and I went round and round because I thought that shrub should be held accountable for the abuse scandal because he is the head person and should be accountable for the actions of his subordinates. I think he should be accountable for his actions getting us in the war and his excuses/reasons for staying there.I see white people milking the welfare system because they can. I see black people milking the welfare system because they can.Why can’t a person step up and take personal responsibility and make something of their lives?You ask why I’m not a senator or sing at the Met or play ball.Senator – I’ve thought about it but due to child custody issues I cannot move my son out of state and I refuse to be without him. It is my choice and my decision.Singer – my voice is best left in the shower or in a group. It is a personal shortcoming that I am aware of and have compensated in other ways.Playing ball – I do not like participating in sports, again it is a personal shortcoming that I am aware of and have compensated in other ways.
I have dealt with my personal demons and overcome hardship in my life. I am accomplished in my field of work. I am the best that I can be at this time and striving to be better. A better wife, a better mother, a better citizen.I volunteer with my kids, I take classes, I take continuing education classes in my field.I don’t feel like I am asking anybody to do something that I haven’t done or done my best to attempt to do. I just ask that we all as human beings strive to be our best and not get welfare just because we can. I have no issue with welfare if the person needs it for a period of time but lifetime on welfare just doesn’t work for me.
Very well said Julie!
Gee Golfnuts, why don’t you just say “Misery loves company”
Golf it should not be that women FEEL they have to work for less than men. Often they don’t even know they’re being paid less.
When I can walk into an employer and set my own wages, then you can tell me I choose my wages.
Till then, you have no argument.
If you will excuse me from this conversation. I need to go and be a wife and mother. Maybe we can continue this tomorrow, if time allows.
It’s been done, PMom. If I interview 50 men and 50 women for a job that can be done equally well by either gender, and I ask each applicant individually: “What do you think you should earn for this job?” The average woman is going to give a number about 15% lower than the average male.
Reading many of the posts above, I was reminded of the concept of “white privilege”. The link below is to an article thereon, one of many scholarly discussions one may find by using “the google” with ‘white privilege’ as the key words for the search.
I believe most of us would deny any overt action on this basis in our daily social intercourse, but to me, it is an existing phenomenon in all of us who are ‘white’ distressing to acknowledge. I suspect I will be roundly flailed for bringing this up, but so be it.
http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html
Did you ever think maybe because by the time they get to you, Golf, they’ve already been PAID 15% less than men so they come to expect that?
What do you say when a woman asks for the same as a man? I bet you don’t hire them. Women are discounted and why pay full price when you can get a discount?
Even you would probably defend it and say that’s good business.
Wow that was a good piece VT.
However there are places where the whites would be in the minority too.
Isn’t it at least conceivable that what Biden intended to say was “clean-cut”? No racial overtones or undertones. Just a dropped word. We’ve all done it, damnit. I think Biden would be better served to issue a clarification of some kind, but I sense that his “advisers” are discouraging that.
It depends, PMom. Labor is a commodity – a resource. It has a supply and a demand. It’s also an investment with risk and reward. It’s an asset to the business but never gets on the balance sheet. Every single interview I’ve ever conducted has had the following question: “What do you think you should make in this position?” If I was planning on paying about $10, and the qualified applicant said “I think $8 is fair.” What foolish businessman would pay $10?
I think that Bill Cosby and Oprah made the argument much better than any of us could. Oprah just donated $40 million dollars to establishing a private school in South Africa. She came under a lot of criticism for this. She was asked why she chose to put her money there and not in the US. She said the students there genuinely appreciated what she was doing. When asked what they needed they said notebooks, uniforms, computers, etc… When she had asked that same question of US students they said ipods, expensive shoes, bling, etc… She said she was tired of trying to help students that wouldn’t help themselves.
Bill Cosby said basically the same thing when he said he was tired of black parents that wouldn’t think a thing of buying another $200 pair of shoes but wouldn’t pay $20 for a book for their kids to read.
These two black people came under a lot of criticism for these statements. It might be the attitude that latches onto a word like articulate and assigns to it a description of racist instead of deserved praise that is setting back the black race.
This New York Times piece explains that “when whites use the word in reference to blacks, it often carries a subtext of amazement, even bewilderment.” Author Lynette Clemetson went on: “Such a subtext is inherently offensive because it suggests that the recipient of the ‘compliment’ is notably different from other black people.”
I read this and I cannot help thinking that this sounds like a spin-off from the black (Educated and Rich) on black (Middle and poor class) war of social standards that they have against each other.Besides who would want to take the words of the New York Times, they do not speak for the whole of the population.
This topic has been dumbed down by lumping negative racism into what Senator Biden said about Barack Obama.
Idiot golfnut makes this dumb statement
>Curiously, what made you hook up with a black chick anyway?
Just shows how far off the topic this discussion has become.
Your a weird dude, nut with every fool statement you make.
The topic is between Obama and Biden and nothing is there.
The New York Times writer is “splitting hairs” about how to have a conversation.
People can be misquoted or misunderstood what they meant. It happens, move on.
Being called articulate is not a slam.
I’m black, with green eyes. Grew up here on a few different sides of Wichita. Never attacked with racist language personally and I hate people who challenge, who is “looking black” or not.
Stick to yourself, keep fool opinions inside about other people and live accordingly.
I don’t spend any moment considering the “wrongs” of other races.
Its wrong so much violence happens with black men but many of us have grown up without the danger of being killed by violence.
Times are different, a street fight years ago is a shooting today. Too many guns in the wrong hands.
Drug distribution, who is pushing the drugs across the borders.
The customers are the biggest problems, those who take drugs fuel the wars on every street.
Obama isn’t fully black and it doesn’t matter. He’s not the first Harvard educated black guy won’t be the last.
Someone, was it Jim, whined about where are black politicians. Hang on, their being created. Black wanna be politicians in the past weren’t given the chance to win elections because of racism. They became preachers, champions of civil rights.
Lets count the white @ssholes that were bad politicans, they really helped America in the wrong ways. Racist laws in the past were dumb. Hurt development of this country for long decades.
America isn’t fully fixed with racial judgments but every year things seem to get better.
Who represents us gets more diverse in movies, songs, sports.
Some jobs keep changing, because they have to.
AOL had an all white executive staff that didn’t save it from failing badly in the merger with Time-Warner. Lost much value as a corporation. Diverse cultures come up with diverse ways to do things.
Correction, you have AMAZING green eyes Mrage. Have you considered politics?
Everyone could make a big deal about your eyes, the same they make a big deal out of Josh Svaty’s hair :D.
Golf tell ya what, you can pay women less, as long as you charge women less for your services.
From here on out, women pay 30% less for all items.
Pmom,
I don’t want to be topic of political blogging today, no way!
25 years from now, maybe. Depends on my projects creating stadiums in this city, how that turns out. My political platform has to be “change”.
I’ll announce it today, though, I do want to be WSU’s President some day. Chosen to lead our local University is a goal.
The first black WSU President, I hope not to be the first, many years from now.
P_mom…aspire to be whatever you can, “content of your character…” you may know the speech. Hypersensitivity related to the topic of race. “White guilt” for something we have never done, fear of reprisals for some comment taken completely out of context. It is important to be ambitious and seek out the current (of achievement) rather than treading in the tide pool of anger and finger pointing (for personal problems). Not enough people look within for answers, but rather outwardly for blame. Maybe it helps them sleep better at night..?
PMom,Hypothetically, you’re hiring an assistant, and you calculate that you can afford $10/hr. A sterling young man says he’ll do it for $8…
What do you do?
Mrage, if you are going to be the next president of a WSU, you might want to consider this:
you + are = you’re……not your.
Best of luck to you.
I’ll answer you goofy.
I tell him that I’ll pay him the 10.
That way? I don’t end up with a worker who hates my living guts, as I’m reasonably sure any workers you have do yours.
I would say that a person as “articulate” (not) as Mrage can aspire to be a university president — much less a university custodian — speaks volumes about the troubles with our schools.
Junior,That’s certainly a possible answer, although not a very insightful one.
I tell you what I’d do, I’d determine what I could pay, then give it to the person I hired no matter what.
out&outliar–”You’re a minority. You won’t get a fair shake. The world owes you a living, so just wait it out. That about get it Capn?”
No, it’s not even in the same universe, you dumb ass.
Some societies are very good at creating nations in which poverty really has been eradicated and in which basic needs such as health care are met.
Others like Somalia have completely failed their citizens. Just because a few enterprising war-lords have succeeded in becoming wealthy even by American standards, doesn’t mean that a realistic opportunity exists for the average person to acheive that.
The United States is somewhere in the middle. We’re not as bad as Somalia. But given the excess of riches in land and resources we have, we’re not doing that well compared to Western Europe and Japan.
As a Christian who prays on the street corner by giving yourself the incredibly prideful and yet sentimental name of “outlander,” you might actually look over the Beatitudes one of these days . . . although I take it that the part about helping the poor isn’t big in your kind of church, not like the inveighing against perversion is.
I’ll be praying that God can reveal the sin of hypocrisy to you, brother . . .
PMom,You wouldn’t last long in business.
Hey anonymous, your typing on a format made by a college dropout.
Don’t know what computer anonymous like to use, but surely created by another college dropout.
The current President has trouble freely speaking coherent sentences, Yale grad. Get your vote?
I’m not the “next” WSU President at all. Two decades from now will pass before I’m a candidate for that job.
Maybe in 20 years, you’ll have “balls” to post as yourself.
“I tell him that I’ll pay him the 10.
That way? I don’t end up with a worker who hates my living guts, as I’m reasonably sure any workers you have do yours.” by junior
So, the company offers you $8/hour, you decide to take the job, then you hate his guts?
If that’s not a gimme attitude, I don’t know what is. You took the job. You took the job for what was offered.Libs = makes no sense
Capn: Thanks for your thoughts. But really, you can be for social justice without being discouraging to people. Disadvantaged people who overcome odds to succeed are not harmful to your cause. In fact they are testimony to the human spirit.
So, yes, work for increased opportunity. But don’t try to discourage those who prove that they can succeed regardless of the environment.
Regarding your comment on nics, all I can say is; look who’s talkin’!
Yeah Fleet, seems funny, huh? The potential employee asks for $8, and I hire him/her for $8, and suddenly he/she hates my guts.
Where do liberals get this logic?
It’s my firm belief that liberalism is a disease – perhaps incurable. Junior is clearly a late-stage patient.
The war-lords in Somalia prove that there’s room at the top for hard working and industrious people.
Poor Somalis have no one to blame but themselves.