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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Feb. 9, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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146 Comments
If the Bush administration is actually considering an attack upon Iran, I sincerely hope that our military leader will refuse. Only a fool or a member of the P.N.A.C. would even consider it to be a good idea.Prior to Iraq, I think Bush would have gotten the support and even the encouragement of many here at home and abroad. But we have learned many lessons and a shooting war with Iran would not be anything close to the invasion. Their army is not made up of mainly conscripts, but Nationalists unlike Iraq who defenses were more to defend the land. Iran’s military is also offensive in nature. Even a aerial assault would be met with our forces in Iraq suddenly facing a overwhelming force from land and air.
Not to mention ever farther destabilizing the region, We made a blunder once with Iraq. Let us not compound the fire with more gasoline!
This business of the religious right attempting to block the use of Gardisil vaccine for cervical cancer in young girls is bizzare.It gives permission for girls to have sex? No, it keeps them from dying of the second-most common cancer in women!The idea that these moralists are promoting is to use a virus to enforce their view of biblical morality on women; in other words, it’s their biological warfare against what they see as sin, and carries a death penalty for thousands of women!You christians say you hate the sin but love the sinner; does your love for women extend to killing them horribly by denying them this vaccine? Collateral damage in the war on satan? You are one bunch of sick f**ks!
Writerdog – who knows?
But, should we have Hillary for a President in 2008 we have a better chance of hitting Iran (in my opinion.)
She has previously stated that Bush should be paying more attention to Iran’s plans for nuclear weapons, and that they can NOT be allowed to have them. She also stated that the military was, indeed, an option we need to consider.
Her comments are much more jingoistic than GWB has made so far.
So – if he doesn’t go in there – and predicting that is no more than a crap shoot, at this point, if Iran continues on its current path – and the Dems put their current front runner in the Oval Office – I suspect we will attack at that point.
Just a guess.
Jed – it’s not just the religious right that oppose the vaccine, it’s many, many people.
Why make it mandatory when we can allow it as an ‘option’ and parents can choose?
Politicalmom has pointed out how other immunizations (the ones for babies,) that most of the population take for granted – can be a major cause of autism.
Why not allow choice? We have choice in abortion, choice in the workforce, choice in religion, choice in many, many aspects of our lives. Why not allow us a choice over our own bodies here?
Why force ALL girls to be vaccinated? Right now – parents can ‘opt out’ of vaccines for their children because of religious reasons – so why should we make this specific immunization mandatory?
Why not just promote it – and allow folks to choose? Why try to shove it down everybody’s throat?
That’s pretty radical, isn’t it?
For those who don’t know about the vaccine – it is approved for use in girls from age 9 to women age 26.
It’s easy enough to allow girls whose parents are not in favor of the vaccine to wait until they turn 18 and choose for themselves.
After all – it IS their body.
http://www.cityonahillpress.com/article.php?id=327
“A state monopoly on electricity generation may be economically inefficient, but it’s not likely to generate political conflict over moral values. But the state education monopoly is something else again. Education deals with topics that many people feel strongly about, and a monopoly requires them to fight over whose values will prevail in the single school system.
What sorts of conflicts can arise? Parents, taxpayers, and other voters can disagree over school prayer, ethnic history, the Pledge of Allegiance, school uniforms, gay teachers, teaching tolerance, drug testing — or evolution vs. creation.
In a market system, customers can choose from a wide variety of options. Don’t like steak? Eat at a vegetarian restaurant. Don’t like traffic? Live in a bucolic neighborhood.
In a political system, like the school system, however, one group “wins,” and the losers are stuck with products or services they don’t like. Different preferences become the subject of endless political, legislative, and judicial squabbles.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=7591
Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th CenturiesPosted: 05/31/2005HUMAN EVENTS asked a panel of 15 conservative scholars and public policy leaders to help us compile a list of the Ten Most Harmful Books of the 19th and 20th Centuries. Each panelist nominated a number of titles and then voted on a ballot including all books nominated. A title received a score of 10 points for being listed No. 1 by one of our panelists, 9 points for being listed No. 2, etc. Appropriately, The Communist Manifesto, by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, earned the highest aggregate score and the No. 1 listing.
1. The Communist Manifesto
Authors: Karl Marx and Freidrich EngelsPublication date: 1848Score: 74Summary: Marx and Engels, born in Germany in 1818 and 1820, respectively, were the intellectual godfathers of communism. Engels was the original limousine leftist: A wealthy textile heir, he financed Marx for much of his life. In 1848, the two co-authored The Communist Manifesto as a platform for a group they belonged to called the Communist League. The Manifesto envisions history as a class struggle between oppressed workers and oppressive owners, calling for a workers’ revolution so property, family and nation-states can be abolished and a proletarian Utopia established. The Evil Empire of the Soviet Union put the Manifesto into practice.
About the vaccine, who is going to pay for it? What about the millions with no insurance? I understood that it is a three month treatment at $360.00. If it’s free and voluntary, go for it.
http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk04272006.html
Breaking the Last TabooThe United States of Israel?By ROBERT FISK
Stephen Walt towers over me as we walk in the Harvard sunshine past Eliot Street, a big man who needs to be big right now (he’s one of two authors of an academic paper on the influence of America’s Jewish lobby) but whose fame, or notoriety, depending on your point of view, is of no interest to him. “John and I have deliberately avoided the television shows because we don’t think we can discuss these important issues in 10 minutes. It would become ‘J’ and ‘S’, the personalities who wrote about the lobby – and we want to open the way to serious discussion about this, to encourage a broader discussion of the forces shaping US foreign policy in the Middle East.”
“John” is John Mearsheimer, a political scientist at the University of Chicago. Walt is a 50-year-old tenured professor at the John F Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. The two men have caused one of the most extraordinary political storms over the Middle East in recent American history by stating what to many non-Americans is obvious: that the US has been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of Israel, that Israel is a liability in the “war on terror”, that the biggest Israeli lobby group, Aipac (the American Israel Public Affairs Committee), is in fact the agent of a foreign government and has a stranglehold on Congress – so much so that US policy towards Israel is not debated there – and that the lobby monitors and condemns academics who are critical of Israel.
“Anyone who criticises Israel’s actions or argues that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle East policy,” the authors have written, “…stands a good chance of being labelled an anti-Semite. Indeed, anyone who merely claims that there is an Israeli lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-Semitism … Anti-Semitism is something no-one wants to be accused of.” This is strong stuff in a country where – to quote the late Edward Said – the “last taboo” (now that anyone can talk about blacks, gays and lesbians) is any serious discussion of America’s relationship with Israel.
Walt is already the author of an elegantly written account of the resistance to US world political dominance, a work that includes more than 50 pages of references. Indeed, those who have read his Taming Political Power: The Global Response to US Primacy will note that the Israeli lobby gets a thumping in this earlier volume because Aipac “has repeatedly targeted members of Congress whom it deemed insufficiently friendly to Israel and helped drive them from office, often by channelling money to their opponents.”
Morg: Interesting, what were the other 9? Seems like Mein Kamph and anything by Anne Coulter must be included. Perhaps they should be confiscated and burned?
I am coming to the conclusion the only logical candidate for President of the United States with an outstanding resume of accomplishment is former New York mayor, Rudy Guilliani (correct spelling??).
His resume makes Sam Brownback and John Edwards look like babes in the woods. Frankly, neither has any bona fide, non-Senatorial work experience or record of accomplishment that should get them within talking or walking range of the the White House.
Am I on the right track here? Does anyone agree? Disagree?
Jed: Sorry, but Iraq should never have been a “shooting war” either. Three cluster bombs, strategically placed, and then a simple question:”Who wants to be next?” Saddam would have been dead or fled. We would have lost no troops, the “collateral damage” would have been far less than it has been, and neither Iran nor North Korea would have been standing in line, hands raised, begging to be chosen.
Iraq could have the kind of government it chose to have, whether we liked it or not, and they would have been better off, or not. It wasn’t, and it isn’t, our decision. We support Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Dubai, etc., where there are only two classes — the very, very rich extended families and everybody else, whose lives are only slightly better than third world inhabitants. We’re not invading any of them demanding our kind of democracy. We support the Phillipines, and they threw our asses out of Subic Bay, and we had to make some logistical adjustments, but we still have as much influence in Southeast Asia as we did before they kicked us out. The bases we have in the Mid East, while convenient, are not essential. And, in pure logistical terms, the adjustments would cost a hell of a lot less than we’re spending in Iraq daily.
rm,here’s the list. the website has a brief description of each book. yes, coulter is a contributor and uber hawk jed babbin is current editor of human events.
2. Mein Kampf3.Quotations from Chairman Mao4. The Kinsey Report5. Democracy and Education6. Das Kapital7. The Feminine Mystique8. The Course of Positive Philosophy9. Beyond Good and Evil10. General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money
JWink – I’m not a big Guilliani fan, but you’re correct that he is head and shoulders above Edwards and Brownback.
I don’t think he has the following to pull of the nomination, however.
For the Dems, I think Hillary is the top runner – and for the GOP – well, it’s too early to predict anything.
rm6046 – if your ’super’ idea was workable – why didn’t Clinton use it?
After all, he was the one who signed the Iraqi Liberation Act declaring that we needed to remove Saddam and put a democratic form of government in his place.
That’s right, morg, it’s those goddamn filthy joooos that are trying to overrun our political system and dominate the United States.
Morning GS, I hope the jooos remark was sarcasm?I’m assuming it was.J-wink, yes I like Guliani,he’s the perfect RINO.
Yes, Tracy, sarcasm. Anti-semitism is, once again, spreading and this time it has found a foothold in the far leftist political spectrum.
Sixty years ago – it was in the far right.
Go figure.
gsheridan,do you feel the neocons represent all of America? The group that I an bringing attention to also does not represent all the Jewish people if you feel that I am anti-Semitic by pointing out a group has what seems to be a large influence in USA foreign policy that’s your right. But please provide evidence contrary to my opinion.
Dot, I get your point.It’s not about being Jewish,it’s about foreign policy.Correct?
Fair enough, morg. Here is a snippet from your post:
“…..that the US has been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of Israel, that Israel is a liability in the “war on terror”,…..”
There is absolutely NO proof to back that statement up – it is simply conjecture.
Israel has been our staunchest ally in the Middle East. They are a tiny little State that has had to fight tooth and nail since their inception – just to survive.
While the Jew-haters in the ME would be happy to see the US pull its support from Israel – so they could push those nasty joos into the sea – without backlash, we have a OBLIGATION to stand by Israel.
The United States, correctly, or incorrectly, was a large advocate of the inception of Israel in the first place. To push the cause of a Jewish State, to fund the ‘homing’ of millions of persons to that State, and then to leave them as sitting ducks would be a crime in itself.
Perhaps the location of the State was a mistake – I wont argue that – but it IS there now – and it is fighting to survive.
The US has put pressure on Israel for years NOT to attack its Arab neighbors that relentlessly target the civilians, so claiming that we base our policy to mirror Israel’s agenda – is a flat out lie.
The most recent incident was when Israel was bombing Lebanon – and we pressured them to stop.
They eventually gave in.
That fact, alone, is in diametric opposition to the article you posted.
Here’s a question everyone who feels we are biased towards Israel, based upon a Zionistic ideal, should ask themselves:
If you HAD to choose to live in either Israel – or the Palestinian territories, under THEIR rules – which would you choose?
Be honest.
Dot, have you read Chomsky’s latest book?”Hegemony Or Survival”?A treasure trove of good reliable info about our hegemonic foreign policies. I’ll bet 1/3 of the book is nothing but bibliography.And these terrible policies have pretty much been even keel through both Dem and GOP admins.
GS, BTW, I highly recommend the book.It should be required reading in college, if not High School.
I like Rudy. He’s socially moderate, although I’m not too fond of his pro gun-control stance, and fiscally conservative.
He took NYC from a bankrupt cesspool of crime and porn and turned it back into the greatest city on the planet. And the job he did on/post 9/11 – monumental. He has huge leadership skills.
Hegemony or Survival
by Noam ChomskyGuide Rating – (four stars)
Metropolitan Books2003
Noam Chomsky’s latest book, “Hegemony or Survival,” presents a view of American foreign policy, which lies in stark contrast to that depicted by corporate media, popular pundits, and US heads of state. With the fall of the Soviet Union, the US has emerged as the preeminent superpower of the world and Chomsky dissects with meticulous research how the United States has chosen to leverage that position to pursue an “imperial grand strategy”, which will ensure itself “unilateral world domination through absolute military superiority”.
What sets Chomsky’s work apart from so many others who write social and political theory today is that he is equally critical of the Democratic party as he is of the Republican party. Chomsky’s theory portrays America’s foreign policy as being consistent across partisan lines. Democrats and Republicans for that matter appear more as two wings of a capitalist, imperialist party than the two vastly different political ideologies that are presented in the popular media.
GS,Easy – Israel.
Anyone that answers otherwise is either lying or uninformed.
OK now this is just plain stupid! What in the hell are some parents, pastors and law makers thinking?A drug that can prevent a deadly form of cancer with a simple injection and some one, anyone would be against it! Totally ignorance? No totally stupid, here is a clue, yes the virus is transmitted through sex that causes the cancer. But it does not make the distinction between sex outside of marriage or sex within marriage! It is the sex not the legal, marriage status of the woman that is having the sex that is the fault.It is not caused by whether the woman is of legal age, if she loses her virginity at the time or has been with many sex partners! It is a natural occurrence of having sex, even if the woman waits till her wedding night to have sex. She can become infected with the virus, not every woman develops the cancer but every woman does have the virus after she has sex!
This injection will only reduce the chances of developing the cancer that can kill you, your wife, daughter, mother, friend, the women in your life! If you think it is a curse from God placed upon the women for having sex. Then God is also damning you loved one too! Get a clue, use your brain as God intended and do not fight this! If you are to triumph, then it is you and not God that is damning you daughter!Anyone wanting to withhold this drug from their daughter because they think that is somehow would give the daughter premission to have sex. Take your daughter out and just stone her to death! Then you are truly being true to the Bible!
And Balls, we may agree on the guy.Pro-choice.Pro pay-go budgeting.Pro ESC research,etc, etc.
How refreshing.A GOP member with a brain!
You go dog. Well said.
Tracy,yes it’s all about the policy and it’s effects.GS,I’ll be here off and on all day I look forward to the debate.
I have to say I am with KGolf on this one, Rudy is one of the very few that I could vote for on the GOP.But it is the gun control opinion that bothers me too, we do not need more laws just to enforce the ones we have will do. But he is a moderate and I believe would be good for the country. But hey what do I know, I would have voted for Edwards in 2004. Bad ticket, wrong order, LoL Sorry mom, Hillary it a hard sell to me.
Did you hear about the Lewinsky / Clinton sex scandal? Yeah, someone looked under Hillary’s desk and found Monica waiting with a cigar and a jar of KY jelly!Oh Ok Oh OK… Damn I have to act up once in awhile or people just think I always thoughtful! LoL
Rudy is good egg in the long run, but who likes long runny eggs.
IMHO, not electable. Too much baggage, not enough experience. More importantly, the GOP has too many other options to “settle”.
We can do better.
Who do you like, Fleet – Romney? If you don’t like Rudy, then I’m sure you don’t like McCain.
Not Romney. McCain maybe, but I really like Newt (speaking of too much baggage).
How can you say Rudy has too much baggage when Clinton was re-elected??Baggage is a minor issue these days.
I like Rudy Guiliani for a candidate. He attacks each issue addressed to him with great skill, either verbally or with action. He will most likely attract moderates away from the Democrats as well.
There many New Yorkers who are still wanting Guiliani back as Mayor of NYC because of the job he did. He turned that city around economically and lower crime.
McCain will also draw moderates. Maybe even more so.
My issues with making the HPV vaccine mandatory AT THIS TIME are as follows:
1) The relative newness thereof; while there have been tests, etc., there is, IMO, not sufficient experience therewith to ensure does not have adverse long-term consequences.
2) The mandatory vaccines are against diseases which are highly communicable, e.g., mumps, measles, chicken pox; while HPV causes cervical cancer, it is my understanding that this virus is not air borne.
3) The cost; again, to the newness, it is under patent, and the manufacturer thereof stands to make a lot of money should it be mandatory (not that I’m against a company making money, I’m not sure the government should be an active partner therein.).
With that said, there should be no bar to the voluntary seeking of the vaccination; and, I believe that all health insurers should be required to cover the cost thereof.
BTW, the vaccine is administered over a 6 month period of time IIRC, three injections are required.
Finally, the objection to the vaccine based upon “encouraging sexual promiscuity” is, IMO, so bogus I shall not make further comment thereon.
vt- Bulls eyes all across the board.
Rudy has gone through some periods of life you could term “moral bankruptcy.” Although I’m of the strong opinion that legal activities of one’s private life that don’t interfere with getting the job done aren’t my business, could the republicans look the other way if the candidate was from their political party? If so, I am very interested in Rudy Giuliani. I’m hoping the next president has enough support from all moderates to bring us closer and make working together a reality. To the extent of voting together to rid Congress of the many who need to be unelected. I already know I could support him more easily than I can support Hillary Clinton.
McCain lost me completely when he bowed to Bush and backed the Patriot Act. There will be NO going back for me — that was his last straw and it broke any trust I might have had in the man.
From what I can tell by doing a little Googling, Texas is currently the only state that requires immunization from HPV (thanks to Rick Perry, Governor). Michigan is looking at it. I’m assuming the info is current, however, if someone has an update, please post it.
The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices gave their approval of the drug in mid 2006, but that doesn’t make it mandatory. I see no reason why there shouldn’t be an ‘opt-in’ for this and other drugs, especially those new on the market. I don’t trust the FDA completely. Okay, I don’t trust the FDA much.
It’s true that some of our vaccinations can cause any number of problems. If you have young children, you’re given several sheets of information on what CAN happen. Polio and measle vacs lead the way of those causing problems. It might help if we actually knew what is in those vacs. Rumors of lead and other things that harm can certainly raise questions in people’s minds.
I trust Guiliani less than many of the other candidates. He’d never get my vote.
RD, Texas is the only state which has made the HPV vaccination mandatory. It is my understanding that such is under consideration in some 20 other states; if I can find a link which substantiates this, or some other number, I’ll post it.
Guliani?? What the hell is wrong with you people. His politics might be ok, except for the whole ‘do as I say not as I do”.
The treatment and downright evil way he conducted himself in his marriage is wrong. I”m not talking a little slip up, no. Have any of you even read the shit he’d do to his wife?
And you are probably the same ones who beat Bill to death over his transgression. At least he didn’t do it intentionally to hurt Hillary, and he sure as hell didn’t flaunt his girlfriends in front of her and send thugs to pick on her.
I have the same feeling about ole Rudy as many of you did about Kerry. FAKE FAKE FAKE. He’s not a nice guy.
I want my daughter to have the shots, and they are extremely cost prohibitive right now.
But I also believe it should be a CHOICE, not mandatory.
We are putting mandatory anything that comes along, and it’s not right.
HPV is only one thing among many that can cause cervical cancer. The shot won’t completely eliminate the risk.
PM-That’s the same problem I have with him. It’s unfortunate because he has many good points, but……the baggage is too much.
GS just proved ‘J&S’ point – labeling those who question US foreign policy as anti-Semitic.
Re: Giuliani’s baggage – while I think he would do very well in a general election I doubt he can get the GOP nomination. That is where his ‘baggage’ hurts him.
Oh I agree 100%. If Newt were president – what a great day that would be. I had the pleasure of seeing him give a speech in Cleveland about a year ago where he listed “Five Key Principles for Thinking About America in the 21st Century.”
It was so “spot on” that wrote down the principles and changed a few words around to make them apply to our company. We have them on boards around the office now along with our mission statement.
Would that be something like his contract with America?
And we know how that one turned out.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/16655858.htm
Report says Pentagon manipulated intelROBERT BURNSAssociated PressWASHINGTON – A “very damning” report by the Defense Department’s inspector general depicts a Pentagon that purposely manipulated intelligence in an effort to link Saddam Hussein to al-Qaida in the runup to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, says the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
“That was the argument that was used to make the sale to the American people about the need to go to war,” said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich. He said the Pentagon’s work, “which was wrong, which was distorted, which was inappropriate … is something which is highly disturbing.”
90% of cervical cancer is caused by the “group” of viruses the vaccination completely (100%) eliminates. This is our first cure for cancer.
If you wait until the female is sexually active she may have contracted one of the viruses. I think it takes three or four of the viruses (in tandem) to cause cancer but they are so widespread and contagious the risks are high. Young sexually-active women should also be vaccinated as they may have contracted one (or more) of the viruses but not all. This is a 100% effective cure for the highest cause of cervical cancer.
I hope all parents give their daughters this protection and I hope no insurance company finds a loophole to avoid paying for the vaccination.
linda, couldn’t agree more with your post. As only one of our girls is within the age group for vaccination, we are working with her and our physician to schedule her for the first “shot” over her Spring Break, and we will help her set up the other two on campus, so our insurance will cover.
Still, though, with the uncertainties out there, I can’t see making it a mandatory vaccination at this time.
There are other causes of cervical cancer besides HPV.
Just like any other part of the body.
HPV is a main contributor, yes, but it’s not all.
and you’re right about it being highly transmissible, and everyone who has had sex probably has at least one type already.
But that doesn’t change the fact that I still want to choose whether or not my children get vaccinated for it.
What happens when there is a leukemia vaccine, and a vaccine for CF…
Do you see what I’m saying? How many shots are our kids going to end up having to have? When will it be too many? 100? 300? 50?
Let parents make the decisions. Make them easily available, and make sure all the risks are well known.
Don’t just start requiring my kid to be injected with all these chemicals.
By the way, autism isn’t the only potential problem with vaccines, they cause severe problems, seizures and even death in some kids.
The Contract with America was a beautiful thing.
Ben, could that be the proof we need for impeachment that Bush lied to start the war?
Golf, I’d say that contract with America was a farce.
I’m doing all the research I can on the Gardisil vaccine for HPV. My girls are way to young for it now but since it is so new I want to know about it before I automatically them up for it.I’m also researching the ‘normal’ vaccines that are recommended for children.My great-nephew is autistic because of vaccinations.(Yes I can be a great-aunt at 30 – it’s on my hubby’s side and most of you know the story there – hubby’s 12 years my senior and he came along 9 years after his closest sibling — I have nieces and nephews older than me on his side)
Julie, a small quibble here; how do you know that your great-nephew is autistic because of vaccinations? I am aware of the hypothesis concerning this, as well as the study from Europe showing no relationship. Purpose of question: have I missed something definitive?
PMom,If any someone came to your house and left a gold brick on the porch…
And later you found out it came from a republican – you’d call the police to report a litterer.
A bit of good news …
U.S. warship makes Cambodian port visitSOPHENG CHEANGAssociated PressSIHANOUKVILLE, Cambodia – A U.S. navy warship docked at Cambodia’s main seaport Friday, the first port call by an American naval vessel to the Southeast Asian nation in more than three decades.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/breaking_news/16661932.htm
As we put a sad chapter behind os … sort of …
VT there are a great many parents of auties whose kids had profound regression THE DAY after their vaccines.
One day, normal kid, gets a shot, next day sudden and huge difference.
My son wasn’t one of those cases, but they’re too many to ignore.
LOL golf, what would I do with a gold brick?
Of course I’d call the police- someone would be asking a whole heap of questions if I tried to do something with it.
VT-The doctor’s told my niece that the boy was autistic and it was most likely from vaccines (he[the doctor] thought it was the vaccines) – I should have posted that in my original post. I apologize for that.
GS: So many questions, so little time. First one first: “Why didn’t Clinton do it?” Because, Clinton(s), like you, are short-sided idiots without an original thought in their repertoire, mouthing meaningless drivel from opposite ends of the bell curve.
GNutz: Newt Gingrich speaking in Cleveland? Ranks right up there with Grover Cleveland speaking in Newton. Newt could be the “poster boy” of moral bankruptcyrunning against Billary, “the poster girl” of moral bankruptcy – what a splendid thought.
PMom: I’m all for the vaccine. And, as I understand it, since Texas has mandated it, it will be provided at low or no cost, based on a sliding scale income factor, to people without insurance coverage in Texas. So, you should direct some efforts toward having it mandated in Kansas, also a question: Since it has been approved up to the age of 26, does that mean that it is not effective beyond that age or is there some other criteria for that cut-off?
Repeal women’s right to vote. Logic eludes them and they just vote with their emotions. America would suffer if they get all angry at the polls and vote Hillary.
The CIA has become worse than useless when it comes to intelligence. It is actively working in a political way to thwart the policies of the administration.
Levin has constantly used his position on the Senate Armed Services Committee for personal political gain. This is merely another attempt to take a positive report and make it a negative toward the president.
Nothing here. Continue with your regularly scheduled progarms.
Hank
I don’t disagree with you PMom. I like Julie’s research attitude. Life doesn’t come with guarantees and I’m sure not smart enough to always identify which “expert” really knows. I’ve done lots of study and on this issue. I’m going with those experts who recommend the vaccination. My daughters are 41 and 39 but they each have a daughter (9 and 11) who will be vaccinated.
The Contract with America was a bunch of pretty words and no-so-bad ideas that weren’t paid any attention once they secured the election for those who said they supported the contract.
They can all say good (even great) words but when do we start demanding results? Like “No Child Left Behind.” Words that sound noble. Results that further erode education and add to the problems we face. But the politicians still enjoy their power, their pay, their golden parachutes… We haven’t demanded (or even expected for very long) actual results in too long. If we expect America to be “We the people,” we need to demand results. That’s our responsibility.
P_Mom, these are the anecdotes I’ve heard. I have questions about the causal connection, in light of the longitudinal study from Europe showing there isn’t one.
I’m not denying there might be a link; perhaps the long-term CDC studies will have an answer, as the use of mercury(?) as a preservative has been discontinued for a few years; thus, if the mercury was the issue, as has been hypothesized, the numbers should drop. If, as I suspect, there are other environmental triggers, there will be no changes.
Not to demean the parents who feel vaccinations are the cause: the stories remind me of the tales of those who take their vehicles to a mechanic for a needed repair, and the next day, all sorts of new problems are discovered.
There needs to be serious research into this, don’t get me wrong; I’m skeptical at this point about a direct connection, but am keeping my mind open.
I’m fine with everyone making their own decisions on the matter as long as they’re informed.
I know the nurses get the same govt issued training on vaccines, and most of it is just surface knowledge. I have done the research, and for my SON, the answer is no.
I will say the one thing going for the vaccine is that at least it’s later in life and not when the neurological system is still developing rapidly.
And for the record, even my son is vaccinated for DTaP. I can’t fathom him getting whooping cough…
risk vs benefit.
Ah but VT, see that’s where you’re wrong. The CDC’s own people came out and said they were told to fudge the results of one study on vaccines/autism/adhd.
I trust nothing the CDC puts out on it now.
And they haven’t removed all the mercury, there are still plenty of old batches, and the ones that claim to be mercury free still have trace amounts (and sometimes more).
safeminds.org is a good site.
rm, an (un)educated guess on the top age limit for the cutoff at age 26. There is a high likelihood that the woman will either have been married or somewhat active sexually by that point. She will have, by then, been exposed to the viruses, and the damage, if any, done. Just my 2 cents; there’s likely an explanation that’s much more correct.
As recently as 4 years ago, I know my daughter had to provide certified vaccination records to enroll my older grandson in school. Has that changed, or, if, for whatever reasons, you choose not to have your children vaccinated, is home-schooling your only option?
religious waiver
medical waiver
Giulliani for President, Gingrich for Vice President.
A very powerful team, equipped with their own Samsonite so Democrats would have something to talk about.
However, either one of them could debate any Democrat with one arm tied behind their back and win easily.
From my limited perspective, I think that the vaccine is a good idea, but it should not be mandatory, as in Texas.
My female children are over the max age and my granddaughter is just six.
I am suspicious when ever a government entity MANDATES a new “cure.” Most of you are not old enough to remember the “swine flu” vaccine from 1795. That did not work out real well. People died, people became very ill.
I am even more suspicious when the mandate comes from someone like Governor Perry.
I have to wonder if we will hear sometime in the future that Gov Goodhair had a dog in the fight….
VT – I think the vaccination issue has to do with Mercury used as a preservative. This is something I find troubling for two reasons – (1) it is not necessary and (2) mercury is cumulative and we are increasing the environmental burden of it.
P_Mom, I’m going to agree to disagree with you on this one. Mind is still open to receive results of longitudinal studies showing a direct causal link. The British ones, Swedish ones, and others I’ve read suggest coincidence in timing, inter alia, for the apparent link.
rm, P-Mom’s 10:42 post provides the bases for not vaccinating.
Ooooh la la, JM – what a beautiful thought:
Rudy debating Hillary.
Newt debating Osama Obama.
It would be like watching KU vs. KState all over again.
Ben, the Hg issue is the one of which I had been aware. As an observation, I would expect the rate to be much higher should there be a direct causal link (without the necessary knowledge/data in my possession, of course).
Through my research I discovered that the chickenpox vaccine didn’t necessarily keep you from getting the disease it just made it where you may not get it ‘as bad’. Even if the vaccine protected kids through childhood they could still get it as an adult. If they got chickenpox while they were pregnant it could cause miscarriage or moderate to severe birth defects.
I had forgotten about the religious waiver (obviously), but I did not know that just because one particular doctor, who, for whatever reason, objects to vaccination, he can execute a waiver for one child, potentially exposing a school of, say 500 students, and the staff thereof, to tuberculosis or other communicable diseases.
Julie, a bit of a quirky question: in your research on the chicken pox vaccine, was there any indication of the recipients thereof suffering from shingles in their adult years? This may be a premature question, given ther relative “newness” of said vaccine, but just wondering.
VT – I think it is a ‘mixed cause’ like diabetes – genetic predisposition coupled with trigger. My problem with Hg is that with refigeration and JIT we don’t need it.
WS: Damn, you actually remember the “swine Flu” vaccinations in 1795? I knew you were old, but I never imagined…. :).
There you go again … “Osama Obama”
The “Swine Flu” vaccine debacle; somehow, even though in the military at the time, I managed to always not be able to drop by the Base hospital for my shot…
Human Papillomavirus (HPV)can be asymptomatic which is the danger of the disease. The street name for one type of HPV is veneral warts which in of itself is a disgusting notion and causes many problems in its own mutation.
As hard as it is to wrap our minds around an HPV vaccine, it is by our own lack of sexual partner discipline that we have cornered ourselves into this type of preventive medicine.
It is legislation by vaccine, but I think the choice is prolong the lives of women and giving them a better, healthier lifestyle.
The question I have about the vaccine is are all types of HPV strains included?
Ben, that’s what I used to think; genetic predisposition coupled with a trigger. Still believe that to be a real probability, but am beginning to develop a feeling that it (autism) begins in utero due to genetic/enzyme irregularities. Upsurge in numbers due to a combination of: 1) better tools for diagnosis, plus 2) more folks with gene(s){if genetic} who produce offspring. Still rough on this, but that’s where I’m headed, I think.
VT -I do not remember anything about shingles. – once I found out that it didn’t fully protect and it was still possible to get the virus I decided not to give it to the girls.
Is there a higher per capita incidence of autism in the states comprising the Gulf Coast, ( Southeast Texas to West Florida), considering the Hg found in the seafood, which is a dietary staple there? Not trying to make any point — just a question, if anyone knows.
Julie, isn’t the “failure to protect” the reason for the recommendation for an additional “shot” which, as I understand it, is now required? As you can tell, it’s been a while since our offspring went through the ususal childhood immunizations, but I try to keep up with the changes for my own knowledge.
I quit getting vacinations of any kind in ‘77. Don’t get my flu shots, pneumonia shots, etc. Feeel fine.
Corpsman wrote me up in ‘77 because I refused to get my annual flu shot. Every time I got one I got sick for several days and I was tired of it.
I asked the corpsman what strains of flu virus he was about to vacinate me for and he couldn’t tell me. I asked the doctor and he couldn’t tell me.
At captains mast I took a syringe and asked the captain if he would allow me to vacinate him. I told him that I didn;t know what was in the syringe and that was the smae info the corpsman and Dr had told me.
Case dismissed.
Hank
rm, I don’t know; I recall from the article posted yesterday that the lowest rate found within the 14 states (in part or in whole) surveyed was in Northern Alabama, with the highest rate in New Jersey. The authors of the study questioned the Northern AL rate, due to the limited access granted to Special Ed records there.
RM – I am soooooo old that I can remember waiting in line at the local grade school to get my shot.
Do you remember Chevy Chase doing Jerry Ford on SNL with a syringe hanging out of his arm?
Funny stuff, back in the day.
LOL, Hank. Great story! Having kidded WS, I remember the Swine Flu deal, too. I know I never got one either. But I don’t recall any “Swine Flu Police” monitoring anything, or even getting a letter, or a “check box” on tax forms, or anything like that. Of course, trying to remember I didn’t give a damn about 32 years ago serves no truth or validity to my recollection.
Hank, quite a bold and successful defense. My luck though would have been the Commander would have agreed with my assertion not taking the vaccine, but would have Courts-Martialed me anyway under the General Article of the UCMJ.
Vaughn can probably explain more about broad coverage of the General Article. heh
rm,
I know a lot of people that have raised perfectly healthy families and have never had their children vacinated.
How could a child that was not vacinated put at risk a whole school of vacinated children? Does that mean for my child to be protected by a vacine every child needs to be vacinated?
Hank
WSC, I’m so old I recall standing in line in Kindergarten to receive the first shot of the Salk vaccine; as I recall, we were a “test” group. Recall that subsequent innoculations were given in elementary school, too.
Damn, Vaughn, all education in Northern Alabama is Special Ed !!No wonder they couldn’t find the records — they were “hiding in plain sight”!
VT -I don’t know about the extra shot. I am however trying to find out if there’s an outbreak of chicken pox in the area so I can find someone who has it so I can expose my girls and get it over with. I’m sure they’ll get it sooner or later but I’d rather just get it over with. If I time it right I can expose them and go on vacation w/ hubby and leave them w/ grandma so I don’t have to deal with my darling oldest who gets very whiney and demanding when she’s sick. (evil mother laugh)
JM,
At the time I was stationed in Idaho and there was a lot of animosity between the Medical department in town and the regular Navy working in the desert.
The commanding officer at the prototype was always a submarine qualified captain and the XO was always a skimmer commander. Usually a little animosity there too, if you knew how to play it.
I was a first class, qualified in submarines and I had had a few run ins with the XO before, he was the one pushing the report chit.
Hank
I remember a few years ago there was a fear about the common childhood diseases returning; mumps, measles, chickenpox etc and there was a big push to get everyone vaccinated.
I went to get vaccinated and was told by the nurse that anyone born before 1958 probably didn’t need the vaccine as they had the “titer” in their blood to prevent recurrence.
Sure enough, I had a blood titer protecting me against the diseases and the recognition that I was now classified as one of the older generation. heh
Hank: No value judgment expressed nor implied. Just a statement regarding exposure, not a condemnation.
Yes, I remember Chevy Chase on SNL. It seems when the original cast left, the show started going downhill, and I think I’ve watched it once in the last 10 years, and can’t believe it is still running. But it used to be a “can’t miss” every week.
Vaughn, we got our Salk vaccine shots on the same day we had one of those, “Put your head between your knees under the desk and kiss your ass goodbye” drills. It seemed contraindicative to me, even then.
Julie, I’m unaware of any outbreak of chicken pox locally, which I suspect is due to the vaccinations in part, at least; perhaps there might be value in inquiry around Yoder in the Amish community, given their religious beliefs. If this is what you decide to do, I hope if the dear daughters develop the disease, it is a “hard” case, so there is little to no chance of having it again at a later date, as did one of my nephews.
Hank, the hypothetical posed by rm could work this way, if you don’t mind: an unvaccinated child is exposed to, say, measles, becomes infected and contagious, but comes to school before the disease manifests itself; the other unvaccinated children become exposed, etc; the teacher, having not been vaccinated nor had the disease as a child, is also exposed. All develop active cases of the measles, with the attendant complication potential, including blindness; the teacher, a female, is pregnant; potential birth defects, etc. to the unborn child.
A stretch? Sure, but not without the realm of probability.
rm – interesting question about Hg – and it might be particularly worrisome if that could be an in utero trigger. And, as noted above, better diagnosis, especially for borderline cases.
Hank, to add to the earlier post; assuming that there is an unvaccinated child, exposed, etc. as set out above, and there are vaccinated children, but whose immunities are not fully developed due to not completing the required sequence, whatever, there would be the possibility of infecting the class, in whole or in part, and then the school, again in whole or in part.
As to your military experience: good for you. Since I was in the Area Defense Counsel office, it was a bit hazy about who was watching us (separate command and all), so I was able to avoid the annual flu shot (which always made me sick, btw) once. My “commander” also had bad reactions, so we did our best to “march on, in unity” on this issue. One year, he made me go get mine, on the basis of a communication from HQUSAF (our major command, as it were), reminding the lawyers to have their enlisted personnel get their shot, and then didn’t go himself, on the basis as he was an officer, he wasn’t covered thereby.
IIRC, those were the days of the “live vaccine” for the flu, which is now, for lack of a better word, a “non-viable vaccine”, that doesn’t have any reactionary effect. Or, am I imagining all this?
rm, I think you are correct. Anyone else?
Politicalmom writes:
“I want my daughter to have the shots, and they are extremely cost prohibitive right now.
But I also believe it should be a CHOICE, not mandatory.
We are putting mandatory anything that comes along, and it’s not right. “————————
You and I are on the identical page with this one – I want my daughter to have it, too, but I will allow her to make her own decision.
If there are ever any side effects, and gawd knows there could be, think Fen-Fen – then we need to err on the side of allowing people to choose what they feel is right for them.
Besides, I have a feeling there will be an “opt out” clause for religion, just as there is for baby vaccines.
I think the old vaccines or at least some of them were referred to as Modified Live Virus. The Killed Virus vaccines started showing up in the 1970s and were the preferred choice in vaccines.
There are also attenuated vaccines which contain weakened versions of live virus.
I forgot to get the URL where I found this, but this is what is said on HPV vaccine:
“…the HPV vaccine does not contain any genetic material responsible for creating warts, dysplasia or cancer. Instead, the HPV virus is made up of the outer protein coat (cover) of the HPV virus. This cover tricks the immune system and causes it to make antibodies that protect the patient from infection. Because the vaccine contains none of the harmful viral genetic material, the vaccine is quite safe to administer to patients.”
Sorry for confusing lead and mercury. Morning brain functions are limited.
My 22-year-old already has an appointment this summer to start the HPV vaccine. It’s her choice. I haven’t given any thought yet to the 17-year-old, but I intend to keep my eyes and ears open before either of us make a decision. The other 2 are married and on their own (if that’s ever really true), so they can make their own decisions.
Julie, I had 3 kids at once with chicken pox, glad to get it over with. They range from light to heavy on the severity, but they were never really sick. When my 4th came along, going through chicken pox yet again was one of my first thoughts. Strange.
I keep thinking that on the TV commercials that it’s stated that not all form of HPV are covered by the vaccination. I could be wrong.
VT, thanks, and I’m sure you’re right about Perry and Texas. I haven’t found anything to contradict it.
The medical opt-out can apply to those who are allergic to eggs, which are used in several vaccines, especially those for the flu.
Hank, loved your story! I’ve never had a flu shot. I don’t intend to get one either.
Speaking of vacs… When I was pregnant with my first daughter and blood tests were done–as always–it was discovered that I didn’t have an immunity to measles. (I forget now if that was German or Red or what.) My doc said that after the baby was born and after I quit nursing, I was to return to his office for the shot. When I did, they didn’t keep it in the office anymore, since they didn’t use it all that often. I was told to go to the Sedgwick County Health Clinic. Once there, I was told that any woman of childbearing age could not be given the vac. I finally tried my former GP, where they eventually relented, but it involved a pregnancy test, just in case.
Measles can also cause sterility in males.
“As hard as it is to wrap our minds around an HPV vaccine, it is by our own lack of sexual partner discipline that we have cornered ourselves into this type of preventive medicine.”
I think I know what you mean, but would still like to have clarification on the “discipline” term. Spanking works sometimes :-).
I got a flu shot several years ago. A few days later I got sick and stayed sick for five days. On the last day, I sweat like crazy and hallucinated. I saw God. It turns out He’s Willie Nelson. Who knew?Flu shots. You can have ‘em.
“Most of you are not old enough to remember the “swine flu” vaccine from 1795. That did not work out real well. People died, people became very ill.”
Oh how I wish I was not old enough to remember 1795! LoLThose damn hats made me look so stupid and the pants! OMG
Alright, ‘Dog, now I have had to take a lot of crap for being old, but I don’t look a day over 210.
Jeez, a guy can’t get away with anything!
I was in London in 1655. That sucked.
I just checked.
Anna Nichol Smith is STILL dead.
WSC: I’m glad you took it the way it was meant! A toast: To a gentleman. Thank you.
JR, she’s still dead; and, according to cnn.com, the police chief says no evidence of a crime; the ME says no Rx drugs in the stomach contents; determination of COD to await further tests.
Hey RD,
I went to Captain’s mast 5 times when I was in the Navy, retired with Gold! Beat the rap every time!
Some day, over a beer or two, ask me about Puerto Rico!
Hank
Hank – my submariner friend loved your link.
What boats was he on? Rate/rank?
Just wondering.
Hank
not sure – will have to ask
Tell him I was the ‘bull nuke’ on the 681 when I retired.
See what he says.
Hank
I still think its funny that it is a boat instead of a ship.
Mumps, not measles! No big deal. Same point!
As I sit watching CNN air “Insurgent Video” of a US Helicopter crash, I wonder why CNN is not being prosecuted as what it is – truth be told, a traitor which aids the war against the United States and its allies.Truth be told, who is CNN’s contacts in the insurgency and why aren’t they being given over to proper authorities?
What say you WE Bloggers?
rm,
Don’t feel bad. I knew what you meant. My fuzzy brain switched mercury for lead, and I knew better. Sometimes the fingers are faster than the brain.
“Not Truth” – they got it off the internet. You have presented no evidence to support your claims about contacts in Iraq.
rm, RD – IT’S FRIDAY!
;^)
“The Truth” or “sanford” or whoever you are.
CNN reports news. Internet video of an American helicopter crashing, for whatever reason, IS news.
And MORE than news, it is vital information to the American public.
This is one of 6 helicopter crashes in the last 2 months. Why the upsurge?
Are are machines failing because they have been deployed too long? Are they being maintained properly? All those missing funds for Iraq. Are the proper spare parts for the machines missing as well?
Have the insurgents adapted to be able to shoot them down?
These are issues the public MUST be informed about if they are to continue to put troops in harms way.
Truth be told, I am not questioning any medias right to report on the war.
I am questioning a news organization however airing video obtained from insurgents, off the internet or other means.
Truth be told, CNN has traveled with insurgents and filmed and aired attacks on US soldiers from the insurgent perspective.What say you WE Blogers do you support this?
You raise an interesting question: if, for example, a reporter for alJazeera interviewed Olmert or Bush would that make him a traitor to HIS country? CNN is a global organization – they surely get information from numerous sources – including the US military. Should an Iraqi reporter working for CNN but with US or ARI troops then give his information to his countrymen? I think not.
The Liar asks, “What say you WE Blogers do you support this?”
I say that once again you are full of s***.
If CNN filmed attacks “from the insurgent’s perspective” they’d be dead because an American out on the streets of Baghdad without a military escort is a dead man.
All the news media is doing is giving us a tiny inkling of how FUBAR’d Iraq is, and even that, you CONs can’t stand.
Iraq was lost as soon as we went in, exactly as we anti-war activists said it would be.
The screw-up is yours and yours alone. Don’t blame the media for your gung-ho support of imperialism.
JR–
This is exactly what happened in Vietnam.
The use of helicopters to support ground troops caught the NVA totally unprepared. But after several years, they adapted.
Same here.
It was when the mujahideen figured out how to take out Soviet airpower (with the Stingers we gave them) that was the beginning of the end of Russia’s invasion of Afghanistan.
This is entirely predictable. The modern, equipped army utterly dominates the guerrilla rabble.
Until it doesn’t.
Truth be told, by the logic of some WE bloggers, American media could have flown along side or in the cockpit of Kamakaze’s in WW2.
Truth be told, there is no problem in inteviews with foreign heads or state, even that of the enemy (Iran, North Korea in current world affairs).
There are problems however with stories such as the attached. Truth be told, Patriots should have a problem with such footage and the manner in which it was obtained by so-called American Media.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1932162,00.html
rm, just for your information, there is no TB vaccine.
TB is a bacterium, not viral.
VT, I think if you looked hard enough, you might change your mind about them. At least the ones that really aren’t necessary.
Of course, for me, the issue is very real. If you had a child who was affected by them, I’m sure you’d feel differently.
I was once in the camp that said these reports were bogus.
I have some other things that I think might have something to do with my son’s autism, but I don’t think we’re going to find it’s one thing, but many that just seem to come together.
One study shows that mercury doesn’t metabolize and leave the system of kids with autism as fast as other kids. One study says kids with autism have a period of very rapid brain growth.
I am almost positive that I personally had a major lead exposure when I was 4 months pregnant. However lead exposures have been going down not up, so that couldn’t explain the rise in autism rates.
Studies also show that people who are older are more likely to have children with autism. That really doesn’t appear to be so in the worldwide autism group I belong to.
Some link smoking, which I do smoke, but the overwhelming majority in my group haven’t had ANY smoke exposure by either the mother or father. So I think that one goes in with another anti-smoking group trying to link smoking with anything.
Yes my group has done polls, any time a new school of thought comes out on what may cause it, we attempt to see if there is a correlation with our own members, which is a good representation of a cross section, old young, living anywhere…I guess the only thing we’ve come up with is we all own computers lol.
And, there are parents whose first child has autism, and chose not to vaccinate their next children, and some of those children also ended up with autism as well.
What they need to do is get serious about studying this- like an epidemic outbreak- go into each person’s home, watch how they live for awhile, see what things we all have in common. Do full medical scans, genetic finding. We’re going to end up a world full of auties.
Evolution in action?
The Ministry of Truth would have only press releases from the Ministry of Peace be the only source of information to be allowed to the masses.
Question: would you object to US media re-broadcasting stuff that had been broadcast on Japanese media?
Truth be told, I am here to spread the truth, not to participate in your propaganda.But, truth be told, you ask the question without personal attacks, so I shall grant you Ben Huie, the courtesy of an answer.Truth be told, my and the problem is with footage the glorifies the deaths of American soldiers, whether it be the current conflict or past.In our current conflict this footage does nothing but brainwash the American public against our current Mission, of which, truth be told, many WE bloggers seem to have fallen victim.
Truth be told, it is the ‘Ministry of Truth’ that wants to brainwash people.
The which you call ’spreading the truth’ is nothing but propaganda.
So, the truth…your belief is that we should hide the truth? Sugar coat the truth? Americans can’t handle the truth?
These soldiers have to live it, we should have to watch it.
His version of “truth” is like that Bush/Cheney got from Feith to support the invasion. WMDs. Saddam/alQuada connection. Ahmed Chalabi will be loved. And we are learning more this week about that “truth”
I have one of those airwick plug in oil scented things.
Well when I changed the last one, I still had a little bit of oil in the previous one. Thinking it’d dissipate into the air, I left it next to my computer monitor. It’s been sitting there at least a few weeks.
Well I went to throw it in the trash just now… and get this.
The tip MELTED the plastic on my computer monitor!!!!!!!! No heat, just whatever chemical they have in that little foam thing was strong enough.
Literally ate a freaking hole into the side of my monitor!!!I am pulling pieces of gooey plastic off the side of my monitor!
WTH is that stuff made of? And we’re breathing this????