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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Feb. 11, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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63 Comments
Well this should make anonymous happy- or at least we shall see. It’s voucners but only for handicapped children.
Right up my alley. This email came from Kansas Coalition for Autism Legislation.
And I totally agree with this. Until some districts pull their heads out and start doing better with special ed kids, they should lose the sped kids for districts that are more willing to help the kids and parents rather than fight them all the time.
House Bill 2253Representative Lance Kinzer, et al have introduced House Bill 2253, the school district special needs scholarship program. The purpose of this act is to provide special needs students with the option to attend the public or nonpublic school of their choice.
The House Education Committee will hear testimony for HB 2253 at 9:00am on Thursday February 15th. If you would be able to provide testimony in support of HB 2253, please call Representative Clay Aurand’s secretary at (785) 296-7672.
Well this should make anonymous happy- or at least we shall see. It’s voucners but only for handicapped children.
Right up my alley. This email came from Kansas Coalition for Autism Legislation.
And I totally agree with this. Until some districts pull their heads out and start doing better with special ed kids, they should lose the sped kids for districts that are more willing to help the kids and parents rather than fight them all the time.
House Bill 2253Representative Lance Kinzer, et al have introduced House Bill 2253, the school district special needs scholarship program. The purpose of this act is to provide special needs students with the option to attend the public or nonpublic school of their choice.
The House Education Committee will hear testimony for HB 2253 at 9:00am on Thursday February 15th. If you would be able to provide testimony in support of HB 2253, please call Representative Clay Aurand’s secretary at (785) 296-7672.
The downside, I don’t trust this legislator to be doing this for simply to help out the handicapped kids. I hope it’s not a guise to try to bring full vouchers, or add religious vouchers in, which could be what the bill is about.
They always have to introduce bills that sound really good on the outside to garner support, then screw with them to put in what they REALLY want. I will be FURIOUS if the religious right preys on handicapped individuals as their ticket into the voucher program.
Oops that first post disregard, I thought it didn’t post.
I’ve never agreed with vouchers – and I especially don’t agree with this one. This is just one more attempt to shuffle handicapped kids under a rock – out of the Public School’s hair, so they don’t have to mess with them.
When I was a kid – most handicapped children (especially mentally handicapped) were kept at home. The kids I grew up with often were frightened to see them, and on one trip in High School to a special school (really just a few rooms in the old, decrepit Middle School) where mentally and physically-challenged kids were taught with special teachers – one of my classmates started to cry. She was afraid.
Finally, challenged children are accepted by their peers. To me – that’s a greater step towards acceptance by all society than it ever has been.
Two hundred years ago – parents dropped off ’special’ children at State Homes where they were treated with dubious care until they quietly died – away from the public eye.
Nope – no vouchers.
Instead, let’s FORCE public schools to provide education for these kids – and keep them in the public eye.
That’s the ONLY way our citizens will feel strongly enough that take up their cause.
But stick them ‘out of sight’ and they will be ‘out of mind.’
This bill is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I halfway agree with you, but I’m tired of fighting the school already. It is no wonder parents are so exasperated with the sped depts they’re simply yanking their kids out of school and homeschooling. That option isn’t available to us. I just started back to work…just finally getting back on our feet. Can you imagine if I had to quit working in order to homeschool!
Parents should not have to risk leaving their kids in school and harming them RIGHT NOW.
and you bet there will be schools who would be more than happy to see vouchers come about to get them out of their own obligation to care for these handicapped children.
The bottom line is our kids are falling through the cracks RIGHT now. The schools play this damn game with us pretending we’re supposed to be a part of the IEP team, and they know most of us don’t have the money to get a good lawyer, because trust me, the school does have a good lawyer, and no matter how prepared and how your ducks are in a row, they’ll still screw you.
Our kids need help now, and if this will get it to them, I’m for it.
I know you’re tired of fighting – you’ve battled this for so long – and it MUST be fatiguing.
But – at the same time – I know you’ll keep fighting – because you are dedicated to changing the system.
When I worked in the Middle School in (you know where) I got upset at one of the special-needs teachers as she pulled the hair on the leg of a boy who was already distraught. When she saw I was watching her – she explained that it got his attention. It did no such thing – it hurt him. I mentioned it to the vice-Principal – but I don’t know if he ever did anything about it.
I strongly feel we have to mainstream these kids and not allow public school officials to put them on a back burner.
Keep fighting. There are generations of special-needs kids that need you to.
Remember – anything worth having – is worth fighting for. You can do it. I know you can.
PMom and G.Sheridan; I am not a particularly good resource on this important subject. But I will weigh in anyway.
On one hand, I suspect students with various special problems will gravitate to larger school districts such as USD 259 rather than to smaller districts simply because of availability of the special services needed.
On the other hand, I suspect this “limited voucher” proposal could be a back door attempt to set up a general voucher system to open the door to non-accredited private schools that can cherry pick students out of the public school system … an assault on our public school system.
I suspect in these situations ways already exist to connect special needs students with services needed in a main stream school WITHOUT establishing a new bureaucracy of vouchers for those situations. Right or wrong?
PMom and G.Sheridan; I am not a particularly good resource on this important subject. But I will weigh in anyway.
On one hand, I suspect students with various special problems will gravitate to larger school districts such as USD 259 rather than to smaller districts simply because of availability of the special services needed.
On the other hand, I suspect this “limited voucher” proposal could be a back door attempt to set up a general voucher system to open the door to non-accredited private schools that can cherry pick students out of the public school system … an assault on our public school system.
I suspect in these situations ways already exist to connect special needs students with services needed in a main stream school WITHOUT establishing a new bureaucracy of vouchers for those situations. Right or wrong?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070209/ennew_afp/afpentertainmentrleaguecroweoffbeat_070209032552
SYDNEY (AFP) – Oscar-winning actorTop of Form 1ÔøºÔøºÔøºÔøºÔøºÔøºÔøºBottom of Form 1″http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Russell+Crowe“ has banned cheerleaders from his rugby side’s ground because he says they make spectators uncomfortable.ÔøºCrowe, who co-owns the South Sydney Rabbitohs, has replaced the scantily-clad pom-pom wavers with a percussion band to encourage crowd chants.”We feel they made a lot of people uncomfortable. We examined game day and wanted to contemporise and make the focus football,” the Hollywood heart-throb told Sydney’s Daily Telegraph newspaper.”We’ve talked to a lot of people and everyone sees it as being progressive.”The “Gladiator” star, who gained notoriety for a telephone-throwing tantrum in a New York hotel, said he wanted to encourage women to watch the testosterone-fuelled game.”The positive response we’ve got particularly from women like my wife when they heard this was happening makes it a little easier for them to go to the game and simply enjoy the actual sport,” he said.
And I wholeheartly agree with him and by the way the Vet said my neutering incision is healing nicely thank you very much!
PMom and G.Sheridan; I am not a particularly good resource on this important subject. But I will weigh in anyway.
On one hand, I suspect students with various special problems will gravitate to larger school districts such as USD 259 rather than to smaller districts simply because of availability of the special services needed.
On the other hand, I suspect this “limited voucher” proposal could be a back door attempt to set up a general voucher system to open the door to non-accredited private schools that can cherry pick students out of the public school system … an assault on our public school system.
I suspect in these situations ways already exist to connect special needs students with services needed in a main stream school WITHOUT establishing a new bureaucracy of vouchers for those situations. Right or wrong?
This bill will never become law. The Governor will veto it outright. Regardless of the merits of the bill, it is about funneling public tax dollars to the private sector. A voucher is a voucher.Let us all not forget the rape private contractors have have done to the tax payers of this country since Bush came into power.
I apologize for the triple posting above. The EAGLE’s “automated robot” test is responsible. Note to EAGLE: can’t you do something about that problem?
“As the new school year begins, the nation’s 1,200 community colleges are being deluged with hundreds of thousands of students unprepared for college-level work. … Though higher education is now a near-universal aspiration, researchers suggest that close to half the students who enter college need remedial courses.
According to scores on the 2006 ACT college entrance exam, 21 percent of students applying to four-year institutions are ready for college-level work in all four areas tested, reading, writing, math and biology. For many students, the outlook does not improve after college. The Pew Charitable Trusts recently found that three-quarters of community college graduates were not literate enough to handle everyday tasks like comparing viewpoints in newspaper editorials or calculating the cost of food items per ounce. The unyielding statistics showcase a deep disconnection between what high school teachers think that their students need to know and what professors, even at two-year colleges, expect them to know.”
anon……..can you do anything but copy/paste anti-public education propaganda?
political_mom, are you saying that choice is good for you and your special circumstances, but not for anyone else?
Apophis, your system educated these students that aren’t prepared for even community college. Can you explain how this happens?
I agree with mom to the extent that often a special needs child can be a hardship upon the parents and at times there seem little real help with them. Only in a few cases is the child totally unable to learn, but may just need a different way to learn. My cousin who has Downs syndrome is bright and can make some of the most insightful observations. But she has trouble making other understand her, expressing herself. My aunt pulled her from the school district ( this was in Virginia close to D.C.) because there was not a real program to work with such children in 1974.
As always I side with the best interests of the child, sadly because there can be such a difficult time educating a special needs child. Not every school nor even every school district can provide such education. I know some of the special ed teachers here in 402, they really are a cut above the other teachers. They receive many children from the surrounding school districts. Like any child, it is an investment in this country future.It would be better for all, if a school district does not have the ability to teach special needs. To help get them to a district, a school that can. Rather then simple say, “well it is your job to educate the children. Deal with it!”.
anon…………….how can you solely blame the “system”? I was raised to with the concept of “personal responsibility”.
Admit to the room, what you want is VOUCHERS. You think business can run an educational system better. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. An individual is not a product you can run through an assembly line.
“An individual is not a product you can run through an assembly line.”
Isn’t that the way the public education system is set up in this country now? The NCLB program pretty much guarantees that.
“You think business can run an educational system better. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way.”
O, but it does. Name me one endeavor where government run “business” has prospered. Governments don’t “do” business because they basically can’t. Private business usually do well when the product they sell is better than products offered by other concerns, and the price is right.
Governments, on the other hand, log down themselves with so many regulations, they end up shooting themselves in the foot when trying to give the public what it wants.
My personal opinion on vouchers is: bring into the public school system an education system geared to the twenty-first century; raise the pay of teachers in order to retain the best and brightest; make teachers responsible for the education of their classes, and give them the tools to do so. If that cannot be done, then bring in vouchers.
The Kinser bill is nothing but an attempt to interject vouchers into the public ed system. He could not care less about hanidcaped children, he is only concerned with creating a crack in the wall to advance the voucher disaster.
Worker, coming from Kinzer, I would not be at all surprised if that is truly what he is trying to do.
However, I sincerely hope that the smarter people in the house and senate will prevent that from happening. And I know the Governor would SURELY prevent that from happening.
GS’s experience with observing abuse is just one of many reasons, but of course, that could happen anywhere we send our kids. It’s the risk we all take.But at least if we suspected abuse, we could move our children to where we would feel our children better cared for.
JM Walker…………..do you have any data that shows that vouchers actually work any better than the public school system?
I thought NOT. Typical RW rhetoric.
Hey check this BS out:
“YouTube: reader skraps notes that the Google property has recently banned the popular atheist commentator Nick Gisburne. Gisburne had been posting videos with logical arguments against Christian beliefs; but when he turned his attention to Islam (mirror of Gisburne’s video by another user), YouTube pulled the plug, saying: ‘After being flagged by members of the YouTube community, and reviewed by YouTube staff, the video below has been removed due to its inappropriate nature. Due to your repeated attempts to upload inappropriate videos, your account now been permanently disabled, and your videos have been taken down.’”http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/02/10/214250.shtml
What is up with that? Is this the most hypocritical crap you have ever heard?
I didn’t know when Google went to China they brought back repression with them…
Apophis, that’s not a fair question now is it? Considering there are no voucher systems in America yet.
I really do NOT want to dismantle the public school system, but at this point they’re leaving those of us THEY DO NOT WANT ANYWAY with few choices.
They want your kids, they don’t want mine.
Someone tell me what we Americans are really going to do when Bush attacks Iran.
Please tell me that we will remove him from office before that happens.
“Please tell me that we will remove him from office before that happens.”
Here we go again. The democrat party would have to grow a pair before that could happen.Dems = all talk, no actionDems = all accusations, no proof
p-mom, I think there actually programs for the autisitic in USD 259.
and p-mom, there are some voucher schemes. Do some research. Of course, you’ll find that there are no miraculous results there. No Private Company (or Tutor) Left Behind!
PM, be careful what you wish for…if we removed Bush from office, that means Cheny will be the #1 guy and he could run for re-election….YIKES!!!!!
The push for public school vouchers is basically racist and elitist. Vouchers will allow private schools to cherry pick the student base, leaving “undesirables” behind to attend public schools. Private schools will be able to continue establishing criteria for acceptance to the school. That criteria will serve to limit the student body to only those that fit the racial or elitist profile.
“JM Walker…………..do you have any data that shows that vouchers actually work any better than the public school system?I thought NOT. Typical RW rhetoric.”
Wow, how you got that statement out of what I posted is beyond me. Where exactly did I write that vouchers worked? Or where did I say they didn’t work?
If that is representative of your logic, kids are in trouble.
There is nothing in my original post that would leave one to believe it is rw rhetoric, unless, of course, ones purpose is to obfuscate with typical socialist rhetoric.
Be afraid…………….JM Walker is seeing the RW boogeyman again. Socialist, socialist, cut and run, Clinton, Clinton………….you RWingnuts sound like deranged parrots!
What would Gore do?
Mary I’d expect to try them both at the same time for the same things.
I don’t have much faith in the current system we have although it may have changed since my sons graduated. My oldest son had ADHD and although he was very bright he struggled with school. In the 7th grade he was placed in the Special Education program which I thought helped him until he reached high school but after that all that happened was they slowed down the pace of learning. I couldn’t see anything new or innovative about anything they were doing. There were still too many students and not enough staff. Anything Robin learned it had nothing to do with their teaching methods. When my middle son tested as ADHD I wouldn’t let them put him in their program. All I ever did was fight with the school system. I can understand being tired of them. I sometimes think the strategy is to wear you down. I wish I could have afforded to send them to private school. Maybe they would have gotten a better education.
Apophis, I don’t want him in an autistic program, I want him mainstreamed and inclusion in the regular ed classroom. He is high functioning – there is no need to remove him from those peers he can model.
At every turn I’ve been given the ‘if we do this for him, we have to do it for ALL kids’ bs excuses- that’s what an IEP is for- individualized plans.
I was banned from visiting the classroom, and then was told I can come volunteer- as long as my volunteering was done in the hallway.
I filed a formal complaint with written evidence of what the school was doing- their own emails. The man who investigated said I presented an excellent case when I left.
I wasn’t allowed to see what the school defended itself with, but whatever it was was enough to dismiss every 9 points I brought up.
At the renewed IEP meeting, the school did back off some and I was able to get more of what I was asking for, so I don’t know if the state strongly suggested to them to pull their heads out, but still backed them up anyway or what.
But this is what burns me- many parents are just not willing to fight the school like that. I SHOULDN”T HAVE TO IN THE FIRST PLACE. I’ve known people to just MOVE out of district for the kind of crap they pull. Sometimes dangerous crap.
One shouldn’t have to give up a home and move in order to pick a better place for their children.
And next year, I’m sure we’ll continue the fight with a brand new teacher. Took a half a year fight and now I’ll turn around and probably have to do it again next year.
Apophis, I don’t live in district 259. I have one school in my town, not many.
Hang in there PM. I agree with you that you shouldn’t have to fight but there is no one else that’s going to do it.When my youngest son finally graduated the principal asked him if there were any more kids coming along. He referred to as being “very strong.” I’m sure that isn’t what he called me in private.
Oh yeah that, the superintendent called me and yelled at me on the phone. Is that not attempting to intimidate me or what?
That was the day I finally was sick of it and filed my formal complaint. GOD I’m so sick of it.
So, let me get this straight……….. Just because you have experienced difficulties getting what YOU want, you think the entire system is flawed? I understand you are your child’s advocate, but at what point is it actually reasonable to comply with all parent’s requests? Is it reasonable to allocate a huge amount of money the resources it would take to mainstream your child when an Autism program is available? I do understand the concept of “least restrictive environment”, but hell that could mean anything if we didn’t use some common fiscal sense.
I guess it all goes back to what Mick and the Stones sang: “You can’t always get what you want………”
***ATTENTION BLOGGERS!***
JM HAS LEFT WE BLOG!
START THE PARTY!
Yes well,
If it’s possible for you to get back before you left I’m sure you will.
apophis, it’s not like I asked them to buy anything spectacular or do anything out of mainstream with other mainstreamed auties.
I asked them to use a picture schedule, something that is PROVEN effective when communication and schedules are hard to understand.
I asked them to provide extra help with keeping him focused to know what was being said in the classroom by having his para engage him in simpler terms.
I asked for his para to NOT just say sit down sit down sit down, and provide him with sensory stimuli to help him focus- another method proven to help auties.
I asked to come and observe how he reacted in the classroom, and what I saw was a kid who was sitting and bouncing around and not knowing what was being talked about. When I pointed this out- that was when I was banned.
So if I’m asking all too much, please let me know how I can lower my expectations.
Have you considered home schooling? Maybe he’s just not cut out for the traditional classroom.My cousin home schooled all her kids and they were far ahead of their peers. I think that sometimes kids do better when they’re no exposed to all the crap in traditional schools.
Mary–
You mean like trained, qualified teachers, other students, and actual textbooks?
Yeah, how do those public school kids SURVIVE it?
What’s up with Tom DeLay?
Capn, thanks for that obvious, clarifying explanation of “home schooling”.
P-Mom………… You do have a difficult cross to bear in your child’s situation. Again, what you ask may really be beyond what is provided in the your public school. A school cannot be everything for everybody. If you can’t get your child mainstreamed to the degree you desire where you currently live, you might consider moving to where you can receive these services.
Apophis you still don’t seem to get it dear. These are all totally normal and routine interventions. Hell parents have sued and WON ABA (which is a heck of a lot more expensive and time consuming). They cannot use the excuse of not having enough resources. It is law that they must provide apropriate services. They have the ability, they just choose not to do it.
I’m not even asking for ABA. I just want them to do what they are supposed to be doing in the first place. Heck they even agreed to it in his IEP the first time, but have not followed through. Not only this, but he’s not the only one in the school, they SHOULD be doing it for all of them, they should have already been doing this for them and the ones to follow him.
And Mary, I’m really the last person on the face of the earth who should be homeschooling. I JUST got back to work finally, we cannot afford to go back to one income. I simply do not have the patience to do it all myself.
Capt, when it comes to this, often we parents have to teach the teachers. And isn’t that sad when autism is now 1 in 150 kids.
Apophis you still don’t seem to get it dear. These are all totally normal and routine interventions. Hell parents have sued and WON ABA (which is a heck of a lot more expensive and time consuming). They cannot use the excuse of not having enough resources. It is law that they must provide apropriate services. They have the ability, they just choose not to do it.
I’m not even asking for ABA. I just want them to do what they are supposed to be doing in the first place. Heck they even agreed to it in his IEP the first time, but have not followed through. Not only this, but he’s not the only one in the school, they SHOULD be doing it for all of them, they should have already been doing this for them and the ones to follow him.
And Mary, I’m really the last person on the face of the earth who should be homeschooling. I JUST got back to work finally, we cannot afford to go back to one income. I simply do not have the patience to do it all myself.
Capt, when it comes to this, often we parents have to teach the teachers. And isn’t that sad when autism is now 1 in 150 kids.
p-mom…………..the problem is that I DO get it and you don’t. For some reason, you think because of your children’s unfortunate condition that the world you owes you something. Sorry, that’s not how it works.
Yeah the world needs to follow the laws that are written. Damn me for expecting that.
Screw you.
And exactly which LAW are you citing? It seems to me that if the district you claim isn’t following the law might actually BE following the law. If they weren’t, why hasn’t there been litigation? The “screw you” really wasn’t necessary.
IDEA law. Look it up.
And yes, the screw you was totally necessary when you’re sitting here trying to tell me that I’m asking for more than my kids deserve by law.
I could absolutely take it to court, but that would be damn expensive, something us poor can’t afford very well and they know it.
I DO have an attorney who is willing to go to bat for me, however he’s out of KC, and I’m a longggggggggg ways from KC. We don’t have any sped lawyers here and they know if I’d stand a chance I’d pay out the wazoo for it.
Well p-mom, I am somewhat familiar with IDEA. Where exactly does it say in that law that YOU get to choose how taxpayer money is to be spent? Your anger is clouding your judgment here. If you really felt litigation was the solution, you’d find a way. Or, why not move into a larger district that can provide services if mainstreaming (your way) is so important to you? You see, I am an educator and I see financial resources stretched thin as it is. I’d like to see your mainstreaming request fulfilled, but not at the expense of my other students.
It’s not at the expense of other students, and if you’re an educator who knows SOOOO much about IDEA, you’ll also know how many lawsuits have been brought and won. If you are an educator who knew a damn thing about this, you’d know I”m asking for a bare minimum of compliance.
WHY should I have to move in order to provide very appropriate services?
Educating my child should not take anything away from other kids. So don’t even give me that.
Are you one of those who think disabled kids should be shunned back away from the ‘normal’ kids? That only ‘normal’ kids deserve the opportunities of education? Because that is exactly how you sound.
Perfect example of what I’m up against, teachers who are resentful of being forced by law to educate kids like mine.
For the record p-mom, I do believe in mainstreaming children with disabilities. As students transition from resource classes into regular (CWC) classes, MY class is the one that provides the best chance for their success. The SPED department requests me because they know I will do what it takes to make these students achieve their potential. So p-mom, you might get off your high horse and stop making inferences about me when you don’t have the foggiest clue. Contrary to what you think, SPED costs DO take away from the other students. What I think is you are so angry about your child’s disability, you lash out the educational system in general. There isn’t some big pot of money somewhere that pays for students with exceptional disabilities. If someone told you that, well they lied to you.
and p-mom, I don’t know ANY educators here that “resent” educating students with disabilites. Some educators are just better at it than others.
Bull, districts get money based on disabilities and at risk kids.
What you mean when you say you do what it takes…I seriously doubt that, I’ll bet you end up being one of the teachers that parents have to fight with when they want to do something you don’t want to do, heaven forbid it take away from your better students, right?
I’m over my anger about my child’s disability, for a long time I was angry about it- there is a lot of grief involved no matter who you are. But not any longer. I’m angry about the crap we have to go through just to get forward an inch.
Now you want to think you can choose what is best for our own kids, and at the same time, tie our hands from doing what WE feel is better for our kids (waivers), which would take those sped dollars out of your district, and take them to one where they actually give a damn about the kids and do more than talk a good talk.
If you were a teacher worth your salt, you’d have identified in my first post that what I was asking was NOT out of the norm, but you tried making it so.
Wrong, I happen to have good friends who are SPED teachers, and they do feel many regular ed teachers are resentful of having to tweak their classrooms to include ‘these types’ of kids.
Well since youthink I’m gutter trash anyway p-mom, kiss my ass. Just because the educators in your pathetic little town think that way doesn’t mean the educators here do. You obviously do not understand school finance. “at-Risk” is not the same funding source as SPED. You need to get over yourself and deal with reality.
oh……………..your whacked “waivers” (vouchers) aren’t going to happen either. What private or religious school is going to incur the expense of education students with exceptional disabilities?
oh……………..your whacked “waivers” (vouchers) aren’t going to happen either. What private or religious school is going to incur the expense of education students with exceptional disabilities?
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