At least the version of the official-language bill that overwhelmingly passed the House this week would accomplish something — by earmarking $500,000 for programs to help adults learn English. But for all the high-minded language about the need for the bill, it can’t help but look like an unseemly overreaction to the changing demographics of the state and an unspoken slap to Spanish speakers. Not exactly lawmaking to write home about — in any language.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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154 Comments
The money will be beneficial only if additional legislation is passed making English the ONLY primary language used in the written media, in public schools, and on product information dissemination.
And the money should ONLY be used to educate citizens – not wet backs. They should be deported.
Up until now I was willing to give GS the benefit of the doubt and thought she (it) was a thoughtful and somewhat sophisticated person in expressing herself. . Never thought she (it) would stoop to blatant racist remarks to make her points.
Okay, we’ve made English the law of the land. Now all you good people who fought so hard to get it passed had better not make any grammatical errors! You voted for it, so use it correctly or we’ll know you’re just racists in disguise.
Sorry, Ken, but ‘wetback,’ albeit a slang term – is NOT racist.
It denotes the criminals who enter this country ILLEGALLY from Old Mexico.
Perhaps it is not politically correct enough for your tastes – but denoting someone as a criminal – is NOT racist.
I think Spanglish it is better.I think Spanish should be the #1 lenguage in this country, because in fifty years you are going to be a minority.
GS: You tell ‘em, GS. “Wetback” isn’t a bit more racist than, say, “Pollack”, “Kike” or “Nigra’”. And, not having your keen eye, I can’t just walk down the street, notice a couple of Hispanics, and instantly determine their birthplace or naturalization status. Isn’t it kind of like Native Americans who still live on reservations, by choice, are just “blanket asses”? You may not be able to keep us politically correct, but, by God, you can keep us in line by explaining it to us. Thanks a lot.
I’m not a big fan of the word “wetback”, but that seems to be the word used by legal Hispanics for their illegal brethren.
And we all recall Fleet’s adamant denial of racism yesterday — yep, he’s sure convinced me.
I fail to see where my post was racist. Please explain.
Fleet: I’m weary of “pissing contests” with you. The mere fact that you can’t see how racist that comment is speaks volumes. I know a lot of blacks who refer to each other as “nigra”, or worse. And you justify your use of those terms, because other do it. You are a racist, or a fool, or both. And that’s my last word on the subject.
I am tired of this do nothing feel good crap in the face of the invasion. Don’t teach these people to speak English! Teach them civil disobedience and organization and collective bargaining. Then send them back to fix their own country instead of ruining this one.
Damn niggerbacks.
rm-I don’t use the term. I said I wasn’t a big fan of it. I said some Hispanics us it. What’s your deal? Do you see a racist behind every tree? It doesn’t say much for your credibility.
JR: You can’t deport 11 to 14 million people in two lifetimes. The logistics alone make it impossible, not to mention the costs. Civil disobedience will not work in Mexico. The protesters are jailed or killed. Collective bargaining is not a tool, because there is no protective legislation and for every job, there are 50 people standing in line to take it. So the question is, “How do we cope with this in a manner most effectively for us?” Education in language skills is not a bad way to start. Further education, beyond that, is impossible without language skills.
For many years, illegal immigration was the “drunk uncle” at the family reunion that everybody pretended wasn’t there. We contributed to the problem. We are morally and factually required to deal with it.
1. Build the border wall.
2. Guard and enforce the border wall.
3. Ramp up deportation
All paid for with confiscated money from the illegals.
SOB: Paid for with “confiscated money” from people who have saved for five years to have enough money for a “mule” to guide them across? You betchum, Red Ryder. What’s your “Plan B”, Einstein?
Plan B:
Have dopes like rm not take everything so seriously on this silly little blog.
…like anything posted here means anything. Sheesh.
SOB: Okay, guess I didn’t understand the rules. From now on, I’ll try not to take anything you post with any sincerity, at all. I didn’t realize the object here was “stand up comedy”. That clears up the statements of several posters. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Yep, now you got it RM.
And you can apply that rule to everyone else on here as well.
rm,While I agree with most of your argument about deporting, I should mention that when civil disobedience was first proposed by Gandhi in South Africa, it was in the face of jail, torture and killing by the British colonial government. The beginnings of the labor movement in this country faced similar dangers. In the end, they were both successful.
Jed: Point well taken, but that does little for the problem that we’re facing right now. A positive outcome of civil disobedience in Mexico, as it was in South Africa, is several generations away — even starting today.
And I don’t know where to even start on the labor/union movement. We don’t have “sweat shops” anymore, but an organized crime controlled “cash cow”, and the “little man” pays his dues and gets little else.
There was a time when organizing labor helped protect health of workers. Now it lines the pockets of mob criminals. The penduclum has swung so far in the opposite direction.
Rm –You are wrong about the logistics of deportation.The Germans was able to round up, deport and kill off 6 million Jews in just a few years.It can happen again today with 11 to 14 million people.
What you are proposing is beyond the bounds of decency. You’re saying we should emulate the Nazis? I wouldn’t even expect such profane slime driveling from Ed Friedemann, Herr Wiseman.
No it is not good to emulate the Nazis; I am just making a point about the logistic quote.
Good point Wiseman.Why don’t you, JR, SOB, and fleetwood dig up some old SS uniforms and go start rounding people up?
“for every job, there are 50 people standing in line to take it.”
Apparently you haven’t been to a job fair here in Wichita. My daughter attended the one for the new Target store a few years ago. There were something like 200 jobs available. 5,000 people showed up for them.
Wiseman used tongue-in-cheek very well. Point taken.
RD: No, I’ve never been to a Job Fair anywhere, as a matter of fact. So, if your point is that the number 50 is conservative, maybe I should have said 500, 5000, 15000 — guilty as charged on that one. I wasn’t substantiating a statistic, just making a point. Thanks to your input, my point is even stronger without being accused, on the other hand, of exaggeration.
“Why don’t you, JR, SOB, and fleetwood dig up some old SS uniforms…”
brian– Below me.
There’s nothing “tongue in cheek” funny-ha ha about the slaughter of well over 12 million people.
fleet, self acceptance is the first step to resolve that anger
Rm –I do agree with the most of your comment, education is going to be interesting for these newcomers.What can we expect with all the interaction of two different societies and how will it affect the political beliefs of its people, it will be interesting to see what changes will occur.I imagine that one of these days there might be a possibility that our two nations might become one nation; it is like you said “Education in language skills is not a bad way to start.”
By the way Brian, you are dangerous with your mouse and keyboard.
brian
I would be PLEASED to take part in a non violent deportation of the illegal alien invaders.
Would you like to tell me how we save the middle class and this country if we do not do so?
I will take that as a compliment Wiseman.Using the mouse and keyboard as my rapier, I hope to bring new ideas to the narrow-minded.
LOL
Wiseman: Literally, less than 500 years ago, it was one country. I’m not saying it is destined to be again, nor even that it should be. But our geographical bonds with Canada and Mexico gives us more in common with them than any heritage any of us may claim from beyond the Atlantic or the Pacific. Our collective security is interdependent upon our collective solidarity.
And thank you for the compliment about education, I’m still a pretty big believer that is the only place to start solving virtually any problem.
I see that at least one anti-immigrant nutjob let the truth slip. All of the high minded rhetoric from the anti-immigrant side is really just good old racism dressed up in new clothes. The comparison to the deportation and execution of the Jews in Nazi Germany is perfect. The right wing wackos in this country are also singling out a group of people to serve as a scapegoat for their own failures and insecurities. It is shocking to me how the right wing anti Mexican rhetoric is a virtual mirror of the tactics that were used to arouse the nationalistic furor of the German people and make the disgusting treatment of the Jews possible.A short list of the ways that Jews/Mexicans were/are claimed to be ruining Germany/US
1. Their language and culture are foreign and will weaken the country if allowed to infiltrate the mainstream2. They refuse to assimilate and will never truly be loyal to Germany/United States3. They are causing economic ruin by taking jobs and businesses away from hard working Americans/Germans4. They are a threat to national security since they are loyal to another country/culture5. They refuse to acknowledge that their culture is inferior and give up their old way of life. They still wave Mexican flags, observe strange religious customs, etc.
“I would be PLEASED to take part in a non violent deportation of the illegal alien invaders.”
J R, if you would like to take part in the expulsion of illegal aliens, the course of action is to DEMAND that the Federal Government place huge penalties on those that hire illegal aliens and that the Justice Department enforce those laws.
Until that happens, we will always have illegal immigrants.
JR,Immigrants are not much of a threat to the middle class in the USA. Lower class yes, middle class no. I hypothesize that many more middle-class jobs were lost in the last year due to us shipping the jobs out rather than foreigners coming here to take them.
Much more important to the success of the middle class than immigrants are education, innovation, and incentivation.Education (like foreign language skills and computer literacy) to be competitive in a global market (whether we like it or not, it is global). Innovation to keep US companies competitive with non-US companies paying lower wages. Incentivation to encourage companies to create and retain ‘middle class’ jobs (whatever they are).
I certainly support the idea of strengthening the middle class in the US, but we need to focus on the correct things in order to achieve that.
JR: You save the middle class by expanding it, through education; not building a fence around it. If you build that fence, the three strands of triple-vee razor wire on top of the chain link will always angle inward, not the outward. You’ll find yourself “fenced in”, not fencing the others out, creating your own private prison.
It’s called protectionism for a reason.
Namely that there is something worth protecting. In this case, the American standard of living.
If we do not address this problem, America will look exactly like Mexico within the next 20 years.
Let the Mexicans go make their country like America instead.
JR: Nobody denies the situation must be faced head on. The devil, it seems, is in the details. One way to face the problem head-on: We could just shoot ‘em on sight! Not very practical though.
You are sounding like the ghosts of J. Edgar Hoover and Richard M. Nixon:
“Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not really after me!!”
Build that fence around yourself, JR, if that melts your butter, but you’ll be no happier, and certainly, not part of a solution.
Steve – I liked your post, it was a very apt comparison. I noticed that no one commented on it. That seemed off to me.
It’s anti-ILLEGAL immigrant! What do you people not understand about that?
So, if they’re wealthy enough to afford a good immigration attorney, well-educated, speak fluent English, come from a “good stock”, you’re all for them? Have I got it correctly. Just don’t need any of those “wet-back peons”. Is that just about it? Hell, we should even let them take flight lessons, (just need to know how to take off, forget the landing part).
Damn invading bastards.
Damn dirty apes.
Steve’s post reflected posts that had gone before it, and spoke eloquently for itself.
SOB: Please crawl back into your Neanderthal cave. You are thicker than London fog.
Just wondering if GSheridan knows the origin of the term “wetback”…
Hey, if you don’t like what I post….just “turn the channel”
rm (and others)
I think equating my posts here with racism or a desire to shoot people in the head is a bit unfair.
If you read my original post, I am for training these people to go home and fix their country.
Do you have something to gain from these folks that you are not stating here? I see no compassion in allowing them to continue to be exploited. In fact, there’s really NO POSITIVE reason to be “pro” illegal immigrant. Not that I can think of anyway.
SOB, post away.GO!………….
JR, it would be better for ALL to have a secure border.Certtainly safer for all.
How about instead of a border fence we have a moat? You don’t see moats much anymore.
SOB,
I may be wrong, but based on your posts, I really doubt that you are only concerned about illegal immigration. Do you support an open border policy and some type of guest worker or entry visa program for immigrants, including large numbers of people from Mexico and Central America? If it is simply the illegal part that you have trouble with, why not offer your support to the immigrants in their struggle for legal status in this country. It seems that you and the immigrants want the same thing, some type of legal status for everyone that enters the country. Or is the “illegal” part really just a strawman concealing your racism and distate for brown people that speak Spanish?
Yeah, a big giant deep moat…full of gaters. And maybe some mines.
Ummmm……..gatOrs.
SOB they got a moat.Some silly river.
The simple fact is – we have millions of illegals living here in the US that need to be deported and then not allowed to re-enter, UNLESS they do so within the limits of the law.
Just the fact that Vicente Fox gets all hot under the collar when he thinks his meal ticket (illegals sending money back to Old Mexico) is going to be hampered is evidence enough that something is very wrong.
Add to that the fact that the illegals can rape and murder here – and only be deported. Not much incentive for them to straighten up is it?
Wrongo. It is just the illegal aliens. No open border, no nothing. Get in line, and immigrate legally. Simple. They come from poor country? Tough. Suck it up and get in line. Just cause we’re a great country don’t mean we can absord them all with no problem.
Uh, what was cut and pasted above must be old. Fox is no longer the president of Mexico.
Extend the river…and fill it with gatErs.
gaters would be people who install gates?OK
Tracy – take a swim and find out…
lol
When you read “gaters”, think Larry the Cable Guy type speech. Get it?
He may no longer be the Pres, but he is currently in the US traveling and speaking about it.
(Sigh) So many racists, so little time.
JR: You want to “teach” them civil disobedience, organization, collective bargaining — why not “revalutione”? Where do want to “teach” them these things? In Tijuana or Juarez, or in “re-education compounds” — internment “for their own good”?WE could produce “Chairman JR’s Little Brown Book” and give each one of them the “power of the people”.You must be as thick as SOB if you think I said you advocated shooting anyone. Besides, even I admitted that wasn’t very practical.
SOB: There already is a moat — it’s called the Rio Grande River. And it’s not that I don’t “like” your posts, they’re just redundantly idiotic.
One you go brown you’ll likely come back.
“One you go brown you’ll likely come back.”
Jeez, and some people complain that the immigrants don’t speak English.
Don’t be such a flaming racist, RM6046.
No, JR, I have no hidden agenda for keeping them here, unless you call human dignity a hidden agenda.
I’m the racist, now. That’s a joke that surely only SOB, JR and GS will appreciate.
Well I certainly am no racist.
You’re awfully defensive of illegal immigration rm.
Got some folks working for ya on the cheap maybe?
Other reasons? Let’s hear ‘em.
I’m an afro-european-hispanic. But yet I’m clean, bright and quite articulate.
Unlike ol’ RM there…YOU RACIST!
Glad to see GS back — just making it up as she goes along. It’s true that if they commit crimes and gt caught, they will deported … after they have served their prison terms. Left that little item out, huh?
Well ya know, RM, facts are so, well, so, like for the little people…
JR: I don’t even know why I’m defending myself, but, out of courtesy, I have a one-man office, part-time Caucasian Missouri-born secretary/assistant, and employ no one else – African, Hispanic, Oriental, or any other nationality.Neither am I African, Hispanic nor Oriental. Now that I have answered your question twice, you can grasp the fundamentals of the answer … or not?
Frmgrl: LOL. Whoops, I forgot!
Being forced by poverty and corruption to flee your native land to be exploited for substandard compensation is human dignity?
Please keep that form of “dignity” for yourself.
Perhaps your position as a professional who cannot have his job done by a refugee from a destitute situation gives you special moral vantage?
Well, well, how this thread has moved, much as many others. It looks like the current stream of posters had its genesis in rm’s cogent observation that rounding up and deporting illegals was logistically a nightmare at best; then, we move to a discussion of SS tactics in pre-WWII Germany; some further postings, suggesting that a moat, rather than a fence, is appropriate; now we are where we are.
Trying to get my thoughts together, in no particular order of priority; to WS, I believe, who posited that the only way to “stem the tide” is to crack down on the employers, I must agree; while many other “solutions” are posited, IMHO there’s nothing which will be effective other than cracking down on the demand side. To rm, you are correct; any attempt to “round them up and head’em out” will be damned near impossible. For such to be effective, SS tactics would likely be needed, and the question remains whether lawful folks, whether citizens, or resident aliens, will be captured in the net. The global economy, JR, will not permit isolationism or protectionism; the export of jobs off-shore has been going on, IIRC, at least 40 years. It can be stopped, but massive changes to the Internal Revenue Code and other statutes will be necessary. There’s more to say, but I’ll stop now.
No, JR, I believe education and an open mind toward bettering the plight of others who are less fortunate gives us an opportunity to, in eachs’ often small manner, better even a single life — if that person is Hispanic, without language skills, without education or training that allows that person to seek meaningful employment, and/or without a sheaf of “official” documents as thick as my forearm — that person is no less deserving. That is certainly a personal moral judgment, not a position of moral superiority.
I recall that the Nazis had sheaves of “official documents”, too.
Ugh….another standard lib tactic comes out. Compare to Nazis.
Interesting point, since I’ve been a registered (OMG) Republican for 40 years. And Jewish for over 60.
That old and still don’t get it? Wow.
This is not the first time a tinge of racism has popped up around JR’s musings on this subject.
Last time I gave him the benefit of the doubt; I’m not so sure he deserves same this time. His “round ‘em up” stance and immediate defensiveness, combined with an immediate change the subject attack on RM’s motives (”Got some folks working for ya on the cheap maybe?”) speak volumes.
No; I don’t think JR – firmly in the camp with the unabashed racist SOB (his term: “n—–backs”) on this one – gets the benefit of that doubt anymore.
VT’s right, seconding WS. The only solution is to crack down on employers. But neither party wants to do that; employers have given heavily to both parties to keep the supply of cheap labor going. The other side of the equasion is to develop the Mexican economy, so that there are good jobs there. That also deals with JR’s exporting the middle class concern; the long-term solution to lowering living standards here is to develop economies and raise living standards elsewhere – raise others up to our level, or near it, not lower our standards to theirs. I’m frankly not sure just how to do that; Mexico is a kleptocracy, where corruption is an accepted way of life. Until that ends, I’m not sure that the economy is buildable down there; certainly the monied classes, who benefit from the current kelptocracy have little interest in changing it.
Bottom line: there are no easy solutions, subject to some “ship ‘em all back” slogan. If there were easy solutions, they would have been done long ago.
And sorry, JR, I gotta call ‘em as I see ‘em. It’s not pretty, I agree; but it is what it is.
… but … but GS —- without all those illegal aliens business owners whom hire them just might have to pay a living wage to god forbid an American
GS — Golden Shower of lies and half truths.
Well, if the leaf-blower people do stay here we can keep them busy anyway. Maybe them being here aint so bad…cheap labor is pretty sweet.
“The only solution is to crack down on employers.”
The only? solution. I don’t think so. It is one that should be hit hard, but there are many others. In fact, it will have to be a defense with many fronts. The border must be better protected. The ability to get the illegals back to Mexico must get better. The attitudes of some people who don’t seem to care that we have millions of illegal people here in our country. People who cut in line in front of others who want to follow the immigration rules.Then you have the folks who cry “racism” when all you really want to do is stop illegal, that’s illegal, immigration.The racist howl is the last resort of someone who doesn’t quite understand is all, but when that’s all you got, it’s all you got.
Ken – our resident lover of Golden Showers.
So much so, in fact, that he brings them up at every turn.
Hint for the next meet-up; Wash after Ken shakes your hand. lol
“…business owners whom hire them just might have to pay a living wage…”
ken– What would a Living Wage be? Pleased to be letting you define it.
We just need to find the right social mechanisms….man that sounds good to say.
Well, Fleet, if there are no jobs, why would the illegal aliens bother to come here?
Treating a symptom is not going to cure the problem.
If your neighbor’s kid shoots you in the head with a BB Gun everytime you walk out your front door, the solution to the problem is NOT to buy a helmet.
GMC
I think you’d take about any shot at me you could get.
SO if you are the only one who finds me racist? I’ll call it perjorative conviction.
The racism charge only works if I stop at “round ‘em up and ship ‘em out.” And I didn’t. If it is racist to advocate that folks be helped to better their own country, than your post suggests racism on your part as well.
Further, a charge of racism does not jibe with amy other position I have on any issue.I DO proudly wear the title of protectionist.
Maybe it is a matter of perspective.
You see? Your way of life is not affected by the presence of refugees. Mine is.Their doing work I would do for less compensation and poorer treatment does not elevate or enable them. It exploits them. It lowers my standard of living as well and does nothing to solve the problem. It perpetuates it. One wonders where the concern is for the AMERICAN working person. Nationalist? I guess I could live with that title.So yes, I DO question those who are not deeply concerned about illegal immigration. There is nothing positive in it for anyone concerned with the welfare of either Mexicans or Americans.
“Well, Fleet, if there are no jobs, why would the illegal aliens bother to come here?”
I don’t know. Maybe our out-dated “born here, citizen here” law. Maybe it would be the bankrupt, “we have to educate them even if they are here illegally”.Maybe a lot of things. My capitalist brethren should be shut down if they can’t make it with legal employees.
There is nothing wrong with the fence idea, either. Until we decide that we are sick and tired of illegal people being here, they will continue to be a problem.My buddy Bush has it wrong on this one.
I’ll admit, JR, it is out of character for you. But the taint is no less there.
Protectionism, while seemingly a simple solution, is doomed to failure. It IS a global economy, whether we wish it was so or not. We have to deal with solutions which have a chance of working. And hunkering down behind a fence to “protect ours” will not work. As another poster put it, we’ll find that that fence becomes not a protection, but a prison.
A fence is going to take care of the problem?
That is the “buy a helmet” approach.
Why don’t we just mail them a nice little note and ASK them not to cross the border?
“My capitalist brethren should be shut down if they can’t make it with legal employees.”
Perhaps if we arrest your capitalist brethren, sentence him to twenty five years in prison, liquidate his business, confiscate his home and his property and ruin him for life, then maybe, just maybe, some of his business friends will think twice about their convenient habit of overlooking the status of the people they hire.
Shut them down, throw them in prison and ruin them for life.
And then, and only then, you will be able to do something about illegal immigration.
Question
What is the benefit to America of embracing globalism? Please do not tell me about cheaper goods and services. They mean not much to Americans with no job.Be it outsourcing skilled jobs or importing cheap labor, what is the benefit in living down to the rest of the world?
Good points about stopping the demand in order to shut down the supply of illegals coming into the country. No matter how good of a mousetrap we build at the border, if there is a demand, immigrants will come in illegally.
‘What is the benefit to America of embracing globalism?’1. You like to see your retirement funds grow, right? There are 300M consumers in the US to buy the products produced by your investments. There are 5.7B consumers in the rest of the world.2. We are not a self-supporting country (yet)
“Elsewhere, Nashville Mayor Bill Purcell vetoed a bill that would have made English the official language of the city, saying that it would have discouraged President Bush from visiting.”
Borowitz Report
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/02/22/networks-criticized-for-lack-of-anna-nicole-coverage/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.borowitzreport.com%2Farchive_rpt.asp%3Frec%3D6696%26srch%3D&frame=true
“Perhaps if we arrest your capitalist brethren,…”
ws- I am with you on that.
The fence is just one of the many things that need to be done. I don’t understand how a fence would make us in a “prison”. Prisons have fences, the guards go home, the prisoners stay. Who’s in prison? It’s not the guards.
Fleet, let me explain. Fence to keep illegals out means we are within the fence. Hence prison analogy (prisoners inside the fence) get it now?
brian
1. Is fine….as long as you are independently wealthy or retired. How about everybody else?The rich get richer is not a good survival strategy for a nation.2. Aside from petroleum, what good or service that this nation needs can it not produce?
No, brian, I don’t get it. Your analogy breaks down pretty quickly. Most of us have fences around our houses. We have fences around Fort Knox. We have fences around farms. We aren’t prisoners. The fences are to keep people out, not in.You people seem to defend illegal immigration just a bit too much, I wonder why?
Fleet (and JR), why is it that when someone attempts to rebut your staunch advocacy against illegals that you try to turn the debate around and question their personal motives?Can you not debate the topic without questioning the motives of your opponents?
JR,Retirement is not just for the wealthy. Many people have retirement funds of some sort (401k, private investments, etc.)
Even the union workers at our local airline manufacturers need globalization. Their pensions are ultimately driven by how well their employers do. There just aren’t that many businesses in the US to buy enough planes to keep those manufacturers afloat.
Fleetwood, if a fence is built well enough to keep someone out would it not also have to keep people in?But alas, I do not want to get into the semantics and philosophy of fence building.
As earlier stated, it depends upon which way the razor wire is pointed, and it will, ultimately, be inward — not outward. It’s an analogy, remember?
Brian: Good arguments all.
Well, since I spent time yesterday building a fence…
I build fences to keep cattle IN, not to keep people OUT!
Keeping people out is just a side benefit :) If I didnt have cattle, I damn sure wouldnt build the fence.
“The fences are to keep people out, not in.”
That’ what the Soviets said of the Berlin Wall. History has shown otherwise.
And it did’t work, either.
“2. Aside from petroleum, what good or service that this nation needs can it not produce?”
Good Lord, JR, the list is SO large. Perhaps we should send you back to basic geography and Social Studies.
JR, you are vociferous in your criticism what what you see as “I got mine, screw you” capitalism in this country. Yet you advocate exactly the same with your protectionist stance.
Ironic, isn’t it?
GMC: Yes. Well said.
You still have not demonstrated even one positive to illegal immigration or globalization.
MOST people are not part of the investor class.
GMC name for me one thing we do not or cannot produce (let me modify) if we wanted to.
The only thing we export anymore is food. So I can understand a farmer for trade.
And it is not ironic or hypocritical that we maintain and expand our way of life as opposed to importing the living standards of others.We will not help them by being more like them.
I’m seeing a trend here. Those whose livelihoods are not threatened by illegal immigration are ok or not terribly concerned with it.
Tell ya what. I have a 12 year old son. Where is HIS American dream? Why does HE have to compete with slave labor in China or from Mexico? None of you had to. How are you more entitled than he?
What do I tell him is his future? I am sincere when I ask that question because I don’t know what to tell him.
I’m pleased that MY view is more of the majority view in this country. Honestly folks I don’t see America surviving this race to the bottom. Not an America I’d wish on my son anyway.
Someone earlier said that the middle class is not affected by the influx of illegal immigrants. Maybe we should all be thinking down the road.
JR brought his 12-year-old son into this, so let’s use him as an example. How many of you think that the children of the illegals will be happy to remain in lower paying jobs, once they’ve been educated and see that there are even better ones out there a few years down the road? Did anyone ever stop to think that the 2nd generation of those coming into this country illegally will be the ones taking the middle class jobs from our children?
We live in a capitalist society based on a competitive, free market (mostly). JR, I would advise your son to stay in school, learn a foreign language, be friends with the computer and develop good problem solving skills.Most likely, whatever job your son will be doing in 20 years is not anything on our radar screens today. Help him learn how to learn and he will be in a great spot to succeed.
JR: Many ores, crucial to manufacturing, (i.e., bauxite, a key ingredient in aluminum), cannot be found in the United States in producable quantities. I’m not going to do the research to list them all, but, there’s a place to start. Why don’t you give it a try? You should have quite a list in, say, a week or two. And you might be halfway through the alphabet by then.
I think America is a great country. There are a lot of things we do right, and overall, we have the will and capability to improve the other things.I do not feel threatened by people from other countries coming in. Study history and you will see this same cycle of immigration has happened so many times in the past (Europeans in the 1600’s, later Asian, Irish, and other) with the same arguements JR, fleet and others are giving now.I believe that America overall, is strong enough to meet the
challenge brought on by this newest wave of immigrants.
Things will change, but we will adapt and like always, in the end we will be glad of the changes that occur.
Yes, JR, your son will grow through manhood in a very different world than we did….just as we have grown up in a very different world than our parents….and so on. When you look around at some of the everyday technology that our children and grandchildren take for granted that we would not have even imagined 40 years ago, you can’t help but to be awed. We talk about the “good old days”, but they’re always better in retrospect than they seemed at the time. Your son will grow up in a very different world, JR, but, in ways he cannot yet understand, a world that will be, personally, very much the same, just with different accouterments. May his life be long and full.
Just a hypothetical, JR. Thirteen years from now, your son brings home the love of his life: a young, vibrant, intelligent, well educated and strikingly beautiful young lady. She’s everything one could wish for as a daughter-in-law; except, her parents came here illegally. What then, JR?
“Most likely, whatever job your son will be doing in 20 years is not anything on our radar screens today. Help him learn how to learn and he will be in a great spot to succeed.”
This is very good advice, J R. It was good advice 50 years ago, it is good advice now, and will be good advice 50 years from now.
The ability to learn and remember are the main reasons our not-so-intelligently-designed species is doing as well as we are.
Steven & Brian: So true, and from time to time, a substantial amount of plain old undeserved good luck. :)
No one’s suggested a “race to the bottom,” JR. Certainly, I haven’t. But walling ourselves off not only is stupid, it’s impossible.
As other posters have noted, your son will grow up in a world that we can’t predict. That was always true, it’s more true now, as the world changes faster and faster. Ditto those above – teach him to learn and adapt. Those who learn and adapt quickly will thrive. Those who don’t . . . .
And I’d note that this hostility to immigration is not new, either. It’s just the reaction to the latest wave of immigrants. This kind of, yes let’s say it, racist reaction to immigration is not new, it’s what has happened over and over again.
Look back over the last 200 years; the more things change, the more they stay the same.
GMC: So true. And, save for Native Americans, there once came our ancestors. As for the Native Americans, our ancestors just killed them. I find no pride in that.
Even the Native Americans were not natives here, they mostly emmigrated from Asia.
But no one was here then, Brian. So, it would be migration, rather than immigration, I think.
I had something partly written and lost it. I’m glad because it would have crossed GMC. Let’s put the racism charge to bed shall we? rm your fast forward post assumes a prejudice or hate that I do not have. (If the boy falls in love with a Republican, that is another matter!) I am not without compassion for the refugees. I was in Jaurez 20 years ago. I saw just across the border how awful Mexico is. Truly, I am sorry for them. It isn’t about race unless you want to assume I hate asians too. No one talks about all of them that are sneaking in on cargo ships. But that is a problem too. Haven’t we all acknowledged that Mexico is broken? We are not helping fix it. We are helping it stay broken. One party is doing it for cheap labor. The other is doing it in hopes of gaining the votes of those so exploited. It’s wrong. I’ll come back to that. The earlier waves of immigrants are noted. And this is valid. But the dynamic has changed. Were it not for outsourcing of job skills at all levels to foreign nations, these new immigrants would not cause much damage. But outsourcing HAS eliminated almost entirely the manufacturing part of our economy. It’s intruding also into service. There is not a lot left and too many of our own people already. Small ag., small retail, even small service all gone to monopolization too. I don’t mean to assume. But I will guess I am younger at 41 than most here. This collision of too many workers and too few jobs scares the hell outta me. With an abundance of supply (labor) demand can do pretty much what it likes. In all honesty? I see the end of the unions, 40 hour week, vacations, weekends, OSHA, minimum wage, etc. etc. all through the American work force. I see a wave of new Social Security need (baby boomers) meeting a decline in American workers. I see the end of the middle class and the American dream. I see the boomers living on stocks that undercut their own kids. Oh there will be HIGH living for the survivors.It will make the age of the robber barons look like a socialist utopia. I love my son. But he isn’t college material. Many, even most people aren’t. And even if they are? There’s still that outsourcing always chewing away. Even with me helping him, I think his future is troubled. And he will be just one of millions. All this is just from what has gone before. If Mexico stays broken it only gets worse.
If we make English an official language, what will we do about George W. Bush?
He can’t even speak Texan . . .
“Families is where hopes take wings, where dreams take roots” “If you don’t believe in anything you’ll fall for something.” “The question is, is our children learning?” “Fool me once, shame on you . . . fool me . . . won’t get fooled again.”
Damn bot restructured my post. I don’t run on like that.
Just send these damn illegal taco benders back to where they came from. It’s THE LAW, stupid.~~~
“illegal taco benders”
Jeez, Jimmy, been hitting the caffeine a bit? Greenies kickin’ in?
By the way, just what is a taco bender?
JR: That was eloquent, in all sincerity. Frankly, it has convinced me that you are not, inherently, a racist. I think you are, for several good reasons, genuinely concerned. Concerned enough, in fact, that you innocently “bought in” to some of the amazingly popular racist arguments popular with the rabid anti-immigration zealots. You are significantly younger than, at least, this aged participant of this forum, and your concerns are real and valid. But let me say this, my friend, for seemingly endless years, as a parent or grandparent, you wonder daily at your offspring with a common thought: “What the hell were you thinking?”
And then one day, you’re struck with a slightly different thought:”How the hell did you think of that? Wow!” And, many of your past fears will be allayed. Your son may never be Ph.D. rocket scientist, but that does not mean he cannot have a full and wonderful life. Do not impede his potential through low expectations.
Do I have all (or any) of the answers to the immigration crisis? Probably not. But, it is a problem, and there is a solution…somewhere. It will only be solved by concilliation and cooperation, not by division and hatred. Thank you for hearing me out. I do run on, don’t I? :)
How uninformed can some people be?
JR: “The only thing we export anymore is food.”
Fact: For 2003, according to the World Factbook, this is the breakdown by category of what the Unitesd States exports: agricultural products (soybeans, fruit, corn) 9.2%, industrial supplies (organic chemicals) 26.8%, capital goods (transistors, aircraft, motor vehicle parts, computers, telecommunications equipment) 49.0%, consumer goods (automobiles, medicines) 15.0%
JR: “MOST people are not part of the investor class.”
Fact: “Equity ownership in America has grown over the past two decades, and now half of all U.S. households and one in three individuals own equities. Nearly 57 million U.S. households own stocks directly or through mutual funds, according to a survey released today by the Investment Company Institute (ICI) and the Securities Industry Association (SIA).”
The trade deficit in 2006 was $763.6 billion – hardly an example of a healthy economy. Toss in our (approaching) nine trillion dollar national debt and the projected deficit spending until (at least) 2012 and you have a seriously defective economy.
You can use all the lipstick you want, but that pig is still a pig.
WSC: True, it’s still a pig. But its fault cannot laid solely at the feet of immigration, as the zealots would have one believe.
Or any other singular cause.
I wouldn’t even begin to blame it on immigration, RM. Most of it can be blamed on poor governmental policies and some seriously deficient manufacturing companies.
WSC: I wasn’t implying that you did, just that is what the racist zealots would imply. Good night, all.
A year or so ago, I heard someone on NPR say that when the baby boomer generation begins retiring, the number of jobs available will increase, and the “younger” set won’t have to worry as much about employment. Somebody has to fill in the void left by the boomers.
As long as we can do something about the outsourcing, this may be true.
Loved this post, love this blog, could be up all night reading and learning and posting. Love your crazy comments and serious ones of concern for our country.
I am torn here. I watched waves of hispanics march down the main streets in the financial district in the south loop of Chicago and was moved almost to tears at their show of solidarity. I had to turn away or I’d've balled like a baby and yet I see dark days ahead for us as a country if we don’t figure this issue out.
My fear goes beyond the pedestrian flavor of my generations immigration paranoia legal or illegal and points to the convergance of some very scary circumstances.
1. The shift of power to employer from laborer has grown extraordinarily weak with the virtual elimination of industrial jobs setting the stage for more to descend into poverty wage levels and decrease our standard of living aided by the inexpensive labor we employ and the cheap goods we relish too much and the trade deficit we support
2. Our countries soaring debt (Iraq war not even factored in) comes to something like $400,000 per man woman and child legal or illegal in this country.
3. The galvanizing of our population and the retooling of our education to prep our people to deal in the new global economy doesn’t even seem to be on the horizon (1. from 5 on learning chinese and spanish along with english, compulsory, 2. begining rudimentary computer coding in 2nd or third grade, emphasis on math skills earlier, etc…)
Under these conditions I think this parasitic versus symbiotic relationship with Mexico and the illegal immigration problem is more than just an annoyance. The little misquito that we looked on in wonder sucking the blood from our pinky through its “cute” little proboscis is now the size of a chihuahua and draining blood in large gulps. Some of us look on in horror and others still just wonder but we all are getting a little light-headed (okay it’s late I admit this analogy is a bit wierd).
I see the situation as a lot more serious than most of my brothers on the more liberal side of things (where I am usually am walking and talking with you). The whole “This too shall pass” or “It’s just today’s version of your great great grandfather’s irrational fear of the irish,… chinese,… haitians” or whatever is a bit too cavalier for me.
By the same token, we are not and should never become the ilk of folk who would consider some kind of massive cold war like campaign of suspicion or hot line for tips leading to the arrest and massive deportation of illegals, still strong action is required on a few fronts all of which have been mentioned.
Some ideas:Kill supply1. Control the border (this needs to be done first and I mean air tight in order for the subsequent stuff to work).
Settle With those here2. Setting benchmarks for illegals to come out and be identified that are lenient if followed immediately but that come with stiffer penalties if not done over time(include full citizenship, integration into the system, them paying taxes educational programs for english as a second language and services to get them up and running in all facets of american life). By the way no free lunch on this stuff, the cost of it would be paid by those coming in as an initial payment plus installments and could be measured out as taxes or wage garnishments over time. But the benefit would be worth costs American citizenship and all that implies and unfettered travel across the border.
After the borders have been secured and the Massive amnesty established over a period of 2 years or so then
Kill demand4. Make it financial suicide for companies to be found housing illegals (reward to those supporting it) action of a financial nature against people choosing to employ illegals.
5. Go after illegals full steam and ding the Mexican government when we find them (encouraging a clamp down on that from the other side as well)
I know it seems crazy to propose all these measures, but I think such a proposal would be considered fair and balanced because it doesn’t side with business or with immigrants nor does it allow for the continuation of porous border or subsequent lenient behavior towards illegal immigrants.
I gotta go to bed now, I’ve been away from here for a while cause I like it here way too much. Still gotta get up and make those donuts in a few hours and here I am writing away at 2:30 am in the morning…
JR, your eloquent post above begat many thoughts with which to respond. Many of those thoughts have already been conveyed by others, so I want to concentrate on the educational aspect.
You note your son is not “college material”; so be it. There are many post-secondary educational opportunities, not limited to college which he could and perhaps should explore. It seems to me that there are many opportunities in the ‘trades’ which cannot be outsourced; does your son have any particular talents in woodworking, for example; it seems to me that finish carpentry is a field with many opportunities. Plumbers are hard to find, and make a very good living; electricians are in demand; I think you get the picture. The main thing is, though, that to enter these fields and to be successful, there must be some post-secondary training.
This may be of little comfort to you, but is offered as a suggestion for your consideration.
I just thought of an idea, albeit a radical one. Lets consolidate with Mexico.Not a hostile take over, but a targeted strategic merger. We join forces to help balance each other’s weaknesses. We would probably need to merge with Canada too, lest we become too conservative. The United States of North America, perhaps.Social security would be bolstered by a huge number of new workers in the system, providing an increase in income to fund Baby Boom retirement. The joint natural resources would be enormous. Hopefully we could realize some great economies of scale in defense, government, logistics, etc. This would be a boon to American companies to expand into new regions unfettered.
Thoughts?
VERY VERY VERY GOOD DemFor Sure!!
VERY GOOD!
Brian’s right JR. Don’t despair!
I know a guy in Philly who’s making money hand over fist in the chimney business and can barely speak a full sentence.
I’ve had some cause to think about this like you because my very own son (4 years old) seems at this point to be about as dense as the elements way at bottom right of the Periodic table.
You can teach your son as I plan to teach mine the most important things he’ll need in life to succeed. Stuff like the golden rule, a killer work ethic, and to be goal oriented.
People are born with talent and money and all that, but the things that we have in common are how we treat people, our time and how we use it, how we plan, and how hard we work.
In addition we live in a country where the government has crafted the rules for progressive markets that are (conservative attrition non-withstanding) full with promise for those who’ll work for it.
Plus, we as a republic have the ability to elect those who can fix those rules so they will favor the common guy again like they did from FDR to right before Reagan.
Sorry, that was Vaugn not Brian
But what about the idea Brian did voice…
Something like that would have to be in agreement between the two countries and certainly could be doable vis-a-vis Peurto Rico, but there’s such a contingent of leftists in Mexico and in the Mexican government, I doubt they’d go for it and I can guarantee you that forces in Central and South America (Hugo Chavez!) would try to manipulate things against it as well. The next thing you know wham we’re in another guerilla war in the jungles of South America!
Oh DO be careful what you wish for.
Thought I’d let this one alone for awhile and see where it would go.
If the populations of Canada, the United States , and Mexico had a voice in what was being done, I would have no objection.
But the fact is the three countries ARE quietly being made into one union. I forget the name of the project just now. It is quiet and behind the scenes. That is why I do not trust it. The forces behind it are not interested in liberty or social justice. They are in it for the money.
For instance? Goods would be off loaded in Mexican ports and driven on Mexican trucks to destinations in the US and Canada! Bye bye teamsters and longshoremen. Audios to safety regs on the ports and the trucks AND what is in them. That’s just for starters. As leery as I am of the future we have discussed so far, this is even MORE scary!
Too, it would be a logistical nightmare. And, as the simplest course is usually the one taken, I fear Canada and the US have much to lose.
It isn’t Canada’s fault that we have used up our energy supply. They should not be expected to just give their resources to us anymore that we would like our government to embrace the corruption of Mexico.
Think NAFTA here before you fall in love with a North American union. NAFTA was SUPPOSED to elevate the working, and environmental standards for Mexico. Which of course, did not happen. That wasn’t in the bottom line.
But back to the original line. Namely inside the US border!
Well, thank you for your optimism and concern for my son. I hope you remember that he is only one of millions of young Americans who will face what it is we leave them. I grew up with parents who did their 40 a week for 33 and 27 years respectively. That was my expectation. My son will not have that. But those who know me from my posts know that he will be taught not to allow himself to be walked over!
We are going to NEED people like that. Remember my very first post about how we should help the Mexicans?
There are three forces at work; outsourcing of work, monopolization of domestic employment, and illegal immigration. Any two of these we might survive. But all three?
I don’t want to be completely gloomy. I do see a bit of hope in the internet. Through it, we may come back to a place where each person can eek out a living with a unique product or talent provided to a small market. Or it may be that the rise of China will cause us to start thinking less about our bottom lines and more about each other.
Most I’ve written on a subject in a very long time.Whew
the term “wetback” is indicative of an institutionalized bias and without question can be eqauted only with racism. It is an unfounded attack on a certain group of people without merit. Humans beings as are to be judged by their individual character, not certain phrases or words thought of by prejudice people that serve to insult and alienate them.