Our editorial today notes that lawmakers are unlikely to repeal Kansas’ death penalty law. But 14 years after reinstating it, Kansas has little to show for it but a growing death row and a lot of costly prosecutions — and more legal challenges to come. A new poll also showed waning public support: 57 percent of those Kansans polled think that the death penalty’s application is too arbitrary, 53 percent think that defendants who can afford good lawyers rarely get death, and 65 percent said that instead of being put to death, convicted murderers should spend their lives in prison, earning money and paying their victims’ families compensation.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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139 Comments
“… a growing number of death row inmates…”. Let’s just do ‘em, and move on from there. As I said yesterday, regarding the poor, under privledged Carr brothers, there’s only one thing really wrong. They’re still alive. Let’s get real, folks, there are just some people that shouldn’t be allowed to breathe air that someone else, deservably, might need. Having just been botted, I’ll add this: “F**k ‘em!”
It’s interesting that who paid for the poll is not in the above blurb. Wouldn’t want that out there too much. Might make the “poll” seem skewed to who paid for it.As long as you have the bleeding hearts making the State pay for the appeal after appeal, it is expensive, but who makes it expensive? The bleeding hearts. The death penalty would be fairly cheap if they got a fair trial, a fair appeal and then a fair bit of rope around the neck.In the book “The Onion Field”, there is the story of the murder, but it is mostly an indictment of the defense lawyers. They care little about Justice and everything about saving a proven killer from the death sentence.If we overturn the State death penalty, the bleeding hearts (and this paper) win.
I’d love to see what rm and fleet would be saying if they were wrongly sentenced and waiting on death row, while someone like them tries to rush the process.
But we are not. Is your point that somebody on Kansas death row is innocent? Whom might that be, pray tell?
OK, RD. You asked for it. How many safeguards do you want???? Have innocent people been convicted? Damned right. Have guilty gone free? You bet your ass! Some slip through the system, both ways! Unfortunately! Nobody ever said life was fair. I like the odds. If being wrongly convicted, and executed meant scum like the Carr’s met the same fate, it would be worth it!!!
Just remember, there have been at least 123 innocent men released from Death Row.
That is 123 men, wrongly convicted and sentenced to death.
That would be 123 men that would have been wrongly executed.
Does that sound like justice?
WSC: 123 compared to ???? I praise and admire Berry Sheck and the Innocence Project, but, the fact is, unfortunately, 99%+ of the animals are guilty as sin, and yu and I both know it. Why was Kleypas even out of prison in the first place? Why were the Carr’s? Ask Tracy about the Kleypas’ case some time — I’m sure he’ll take the time to tell you about it. He certainly did for me, and I didn’t even have to ask!
I am not arguing FOR rapists, murders and thieves, however, if 123 have been PROVEN innocent, how many more ARE innocent but cannot absolutely prove it? How many are guilty of a lesser crime but get the DP anyway?
Once some one is executed, there is no chance to redeem the error.
123 dead innocent men is a heavy price to pay so that the Carrs and Kleypas can be executed.
I agree that some of these people are horrible animals, but the system is obviously broken if 123 were sentenced to death despite their innocence.
Remember, the 123 were not found to have been NOT GUILTY, they were PROVEN to be innocent.
how many miles is the kansas media going to get out of this poll that may or may not be skewed to favor the anti-death penalty people?
I know Yonally personally (the guy who did the poll) – he is notorious for cheating polls.
Until the actual questions are posted or released, everyone, pro- and anti-death penalty should be skeptical.
123 is far too many, i agree WS.
I am pretty sure, however, that Kleypas and the Carr brothers are guilty.
and if it pleases folks, we can do the 6 death-row inmates trials all over again – but that would cost too much money, right WE Blog?
From the WE post:
“Kansas has little to show for it but a growing death row and a lot of costly prosecutions — and more legal challenges to come.”
so, does that mean the eagle thinks that we should go ahead and speed up the process? limit legal challenges? what?
how many miles is the kansas media going to get out of this poll that may or may not be skewed to favor the anti-death penalty people?
I know Yonally personally (the guy who did the poll) – he is notorious for cheating polls.
Until the actual questions are posted or released, everyone, pro- and anti-death penalty should be skeptical.
Sorry, WSC, but as I asked, 123 of ?????????. That’s the question. Humanely, 123 sounds like a hell of a number, but, compared to what? And, hell’s bells, they’re not getting executed anyway (which is why it costs so damned much), so “what to worry?”
Sorry RM, asking 123 innocent men to die so that Reginald Carr can be executed seems to me to be a hell of a price to pay.
I would hate to be the one that had to tell a twelve year old girl that her dad was wrongly executed.
The bottom line is very simple – life without the possibility of parole is cheaper and allows the possibility that an error can be reversed.
I cannot imagine a human being with less redeeming qualities that Reginald Carr but 123 is too great a price to see him executed.
Sorry RM, asking 123 innocent men to die so that Reginald Carr can be executed seems to me to be a hell of a price to pay.
I would hate to be the one that had to tell a twelve year old girl that her dad was wrongly executed.
The bottom line is very simple – life without the possibility of parole is cheaper and allows the possibility that an error can be reversed.
I cannot imagine a human being with less redeeming qualities that Reginald Carr but 123 is too great a price to see him executed.
By the way, there have been at least seven men executed that were probably innocent.
Sorry RM, asking 123 innocent men to die so that Reginald Carr can be executed seems to me to be a hell of a price to pay.
I would hate to be the one that had to tell a twelve year old girl that her dad was wrongly executed.
The bottom line is very simple – life without the possibility of parole is cheaper and allows the possibility that an error can be reversed.
I cannot imagine a human being with less redeeming qualities that Reginald Carr but 123 is too great a price to see him executed.
By the way, there have been at least seven men executed that were probably innocent.
For the Carr Brothers, forget the death penalty!
Just provide a rope and force them to listen to give to listen to BDP Fleet’s posts.
You could even run a lottery on how long they last.
I pick 2:13; that’s minutes/seconds and not hours/minutes.
Just have to get a disclaimer for the ” Cruel & Unusual Punuishment”charges that are certain to follow.
No problem!!
WSC: Believe me, I understand what you are saying, but you still have refused to answer my question. Is that 1%, 2%, 5%, and what is the acceptable “margin of error”? I wish I knew that answer. And, my friend, it is a hell of a price to pay … but nothing comes free! In an ideal world, it would be 0%, but we don’t live there, and won’t ever live there. I can’t wait to see Carr and Kleypas die. I just wish that they were frying or hanging them. It’s more than worth the gamble that I would be wrongfully plucked up out of nowhere and wrongly accused and convicted of capital murder.
I can’t help but think that anti-death penalty Brownlee/Eagle is “botting” me every time I post on this issue.
In 14 years we haven’t executed anybody? Why even have a death penalty? So we can execute somebody every 30 years or so?
I’m with WS. Lock them up and throw away the key.Some of you need to move to Texas where they have lots of executions to enjoy.
“what is the acceptable “margin of error”?”
I am sorry, RM, but from my perspective the acceptable margin of error is zero.
How can we ask an innocent man to die for a crime that he did not commit? When a man is COMPLETELY innocent of the crime, but is executed anyway, then we as a society have failed and failed horribly.
As I noted, there is evidence that at least seven innocent men have been executed.
Until the system is fixed, we should execute anymore.
In 14 years we haven’t executed anybody? Why even have a death penalty? So we can execute somebody every 30 years or so?
I’m with WS. Lock them up and throw away the key.Some of you need to move to Texas where they have lots of executions to enjoy.
I have to agree with rm6046, folks like the Carr brothers don’t even deserve to breathe.
I’m sorry for those falsely accused, but if the families of the victims want the Death Penalty – I support their wishes.
“I’m sorry for those falsely accused, but if the families of the victims want the Death Penalty – I support their wishes.”
So, General Sherri, how would you feel if you were a family member of a murder victim and you found out that the wrong man had been executed.
Knowing you, I am sure that you would be okay with that, but some of us would prefer that innocent people are not executed.
Strange, I seem to have been censored. I know I commented on this very topic, but it just seems to have disappeared.
Oh well, not surprising considering they do much more of that on their news pages and have no conservatives on their editorial board.
As to the topic, create an express lane before these libs run the cost up. Give them 30 days to do one appeal and then string them up the old fashioned way.
“Give them 30 days to do one appeal and then string them up the old fashioned way.”
So, Angry Ben, you would be okay with executing 123 innocent men?
WsClark – I would feel very badly, but I don’t think it is my place to try and second-guess the emotional needs of the families of the victims.
Were one of my family members murdered – I don’t think I would advocate the Death Penalty – unless it was especially heinous.
I think we should give some say to the survivors.
One innocent person executed is too much risk.Until there can be more solid assurance of guilt than our justice system can provide today I cannot support capital punishment as a policy.On a limited case by case basis, I think the death penalty could be imposed. Perhaps the Carr bros would qualify. Certainly Saddam did. However, this methodology would shift capital punishment closer to the ‘unusual’ side of cruel and unusual and threaten the Constitutionality of it.
“I think we should give some say to the survivors.”
So execute SOMEONE – it doesn’t matter who – just put someone in the CHAIR?
So when someone is murdered it is acceptable to execute an innocent man and allow the true guilty party to go free?
That would mean there were TWO victims – the murdered and an innocent man that died for a crime that he did not commit.
“As I noted, there is evidence that at least seven innocent men have been executed.”I doubt the above comment. Link me, please.
I will thy to post this again.
Let us keep on the Kansas death penalty.
Are there any bleeding hearts who doubt anybody on the Kansas death row is guilty as charged? Even one?If there are no takers, why not fry them tomorrow.If you believe someone to be not guilty and shouldn’t be fried, who would it be.
I’d take that “123 innocent” number with a very large grain of salt.
That said, as I’ve posted before, I’m not a great fan of capital punishment. I would not have voted to reinstate it in the first place. It has no deterrent effect (other than on the condemned him/herself, of course), it’s expensive (cheaper to lock up for life), and carries the certainty that at some point, not due to malice but simply because the players are human, that we will execute someone for something he/she didn’t do. It will happen, I have no doubt it has happened before.
HOWEVER: 1) I’m extremely skeptical of ALL polls – there’s no such thing as unbiased polling. If you write the questions right or choose your sample carefully, you can get any result you like. And any public official who makes his/her decisions on the basis of what the polls say isn’t fit to hold office.2) Kansas can’t keep going back and forth on this. We have the death penalty, I’m not in favor of revisiting this issue every time a poll swings this way or that. It’s here, it should stay. With the protections in our system, wrongful executions are extremely rare (but not impossible). Reserve it for the worst of the worse; i.e. the Carrs, for example.
If we’re gonna have it, however, the process has to be sped up. One year from sentencing, the sentence should be carried out. Period. Appeals should go to the head of the line, get quickly before the appellate courts and get resolved in a timely fashion. Having those convicted sit for 8-10-15 years on death row is unacceptable.
I guess if we’re gonna have capital punishment, I want that express lane, but I want an express appeals lane with it. All appealable issues should be fully explored. And yes, it can be done, if we choose to do so.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are scumbags in this world who deserve to be taken out into the street and shot like the mad dogs they are. Charlie Manson, ted Bundy, the guy who dreamed up “Cop Rock”… Those people should be held responsible!
But I have deep and sincere doubts about the judicial system’s way of meting out criminal penalties. The same kinds of people who, for example, returned the multi-million dollar hot coffee verdict against McDonald’s (justified, in my opinion, once you know the facts of the case) were on the juries a few years back in Illinois who condemned the 8 men who were later proven by DNA evidence to be innocent of the crimes that put them on Death Row. The judicial system is inherently flawed because it depends on inherently-flawed human beings. And there’s no way to rectify an unjust execution. That’s the rub.
Whether an unjust conviction is due to bad lawyers, bad juries, bad evidence, over-zealous prosecutors, incompetent judges, bad luck… it seems to me that a system that aspires to justice should have in its intrinsic structure the capability to right wrongs. And there’s no way to un-do an execution.
And it’s altogether too easy to put people on death row and kill them.
If there is to be a death penalty — and I see no constitutional provision in the United States to prevent it — I think the death warrant should be signed by the governor (or President) in the presence of the condemned, and only after a face-to-face meeting. I think, instead of simply signing a piece of paper, the Chief Executive of the state or nation should be required to pull the switch him/herself. And if — as it could verywell have happened in Illinois where fully half the prisoners on Death Row were conclusively proven innocent — a person is put to death unjustly, the governor and the trial judge and the jury members responsible should be summarily executed for murder.
As a practical matter, though, I suspect most Death Penalty politicians lack the cajones to sign a death warrant if their own lives were on the line.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there are scumbags in this world who deserve to be taken out into the street and shot like the mad dogs they are. Charlie Manson, ted Bundy, the guy who dreamed up “Cop Rock”… Those people should be held responsible!
But I have deep and sincere doubts about the judicial system’s way of meting out criminal penalties. The same kinds of people who, for example, returned the multi-million dollar hot coffee verdict against McDonald’s (justified, in my opinion, once you know the facts of the case) were on the juries a few years back in Illinois who condemned the 8 men who were later proven by DNA evidence to be innocent of the crimes that put them on Death Row. The judicial system is inherently flawed because it depends on inherently-flawed human beings. And there’s no way to rectify an unjust execution. That’s the rub.
Whether an unjust conviction is due to bad lawyers, bad juries, bad evidence, over-zealous prosecutors, incompetent judges, bad luck… it seems to me that a system that aspires to justice should have in its intrinsic structure the capability to right wrongs. And there’s no way to un-do an execution.
And it’s altogether too easy to put people on death row and kill them.
If there is to be a death penalty — and I see no constitutional provision in the United States to prevent it — I think the death warrant should be signed by the governor (or President) in the presence of the condemned, and only after a face-to-face meeting. I think, instead of simply signing a piece of paper, the Chief Executive of the state or nation should be required to pull the switch him/herself. And if — as it could verywell have happened in Illinois where fully half the prisoners on Death Row were conclusively proven innocent — a person is put to death unjustly, the governor and the trial judge and the jury members responsible should be summarily executed for murder.
As a practical matter, though, I suspect most Death Penalty politicians lack the cajones to sign a death warrant if their own lives were on the line.
Lets put them in Cryonics and thaw them out later after we learn how to do lobotomies better.
GMC: Points well made and well taken. I’ve been “botted” so many times that you got your’s in.
I’m going to try this again, WSC, and hope it will actually go through this time. In a perfect world, you’re right as rain, my friend. We don’t live there, and will never live there.
FWIW, I believed, until the final moments and confession, that Ted Bundy was an innocent victim, who just had really bad luck. Wrong place-wrong time, as it were.
But, I don’t want those bastards ever out here again, and capital punishment seems to be the only assurance thereof. As a practicing Jew, the term “final solution” should be abhorrent to me, but in cases like the Carrs’ and Kleypas, they’re comforting.
We are not talking about CLAIMS of innocence, RM, we are talking about people that were proven by DNA evidence to be INNOCENT. We are talking about eye witnesses that have admitted that they “MADE A DEAL” to avoid prosecution.
Damn it! As a free society, we cannot allow INNOCENT people to be put to death to satisfy a blood lust.
Sorry folks, but 123 is a number far too large to accept.
We are not talking about CLAIMS of innocence, RM, we are talking about people that were proven by DNA evidence to be INNOCENT. We are talking about eye witnesses that have admitted that they “MADE A DEAL” to avoid prosecution.
Damn it! As a free society, we cannot allow INNOCENT people to be put to death to satisfy a blood lust.
Sorry folks, but 123 is a number far too large to accept.
Truth be told, 123 persons over 25 states over 33 years hardly seems to be an epidemic of innocents on death row. This is 3% of the death row population since 1973, truth be told.Failure of the most reliable contraception is 10% by comparison, truth be told.
“epidemic of innocents on death row.”
So, Truthiness, if you were one of the lousy 3% that were wrongly sentenced to death, you would be cool with that, right?
After all, it’s just THREE percent!
You wouldn’t mind being executed, would you?
You are going to die anyway, so why not TODAY?
You are innocent? So what, we need to kill MURDERERS!!!!
So what if you are innocent.
Truth, from the link you provided:
-62% of those exonerated were had been convicted in the last 10 years.-I counted 12 (10%) who had been in prison more than 16.-The average length of time served prior to execution is 16 years, 1 month.-One-third of exonerations have come from two states (Florida and Illinois) Zero from Kansas.
If you wish to examine crime and punishment in these two states, more power to you, truth be told.However you wield your 123 like an 8 year old with a loaded gun.This is hardly a Kansas’ nor the national plague requiring a Constitutional Ammendment as you might suggest, truth be told.
“This is hardly a Kansas’ nor the national plague requiring a Constitutional Ammendment as you might suggest”
I never suggested that, Thruthiness, I asked how would you feel about being executed for a crime that you did not commit?
From your comment, you seem to be okay with the possibility.
WSC: Everybody wants to go to heaven, they just don’t want to go tonight!
I will never be execute as I am not a criminal, truth be told. PROVE an innocent person has been executed.
The VAST MAJORITY of innocents are found to be so within 10 years. If you are innocent, it will be PROVEN.3 COUNT THEM 3 – in 2 years, that with the burden of proof (DNA) scientific evidence to overturn at an all-time high.One person I believe on the list of 123 was an execution which was pardoned?You obviously are against the death penalty. This is your right as an American. However while in the minority, you can not throw around meaningless statistics as support for overturning a law that 1) works and 2) the majority of the popultion favors.
WSC: With all respect, we just need to get rid of these sub-humans. End of story, pal. We, you and I both, get pissed off about things and at people, we don’t go out and kill them. We don’t go out and kill and/or rape total strangers. That’s why they die, we live. That’s why we should live and they should not! The Beagle/Brownlee will “bot” me again, I’m sure, but maybe, sooner or later, you’ll receive this.
“I think we should give some say to the survivors.”
GS (fleet & rm can play too),
For the sake of argument, let’s change the parameters of this just a little.
Your son has been charged and convicted in the death of a person. The survivors of that victim choose the death sentence. In fact, the demand it. After all, they’re tired of the upper class getting away with murder…literally.
The appeal process has had it’s run. In your heart, you know your son is innocent, but you have no way to prove it.
Would this change anything for you?
Coincidently, the son of one of the CHP officers who made the arrest in the “The Onion Field” murders is a business acquiantance of mine here.Bottom line on the death penalty, executions are nill, except in Texas.
“I will never be execute as I am not a criminal, truth be told. PROVE an innocent person has been executed.”
You don’t think so, but it IS a possibility….
Read up on what has really happned and you may think twice….
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?&did=2238
After all, they’re tired of the upper class getting away with murder…literally.
Truth be told do you have any proof to back up such a statement? (save OJ Simpson & an aging movie star) or is it just the usual class envy found on the WE blog, truth be told.
Mr kia-Are you familiar with “The Onion Field”? I found it facinating, in that the bleeding hearts were only interested in the appeal, not whether they were guilty or not.
I will repeat my question that no bleeding hearts have chosen to answer.
Are there any people on the Kansas death row that are not guilty of the crimes they are charged with?
It’s not a hard question and don’t give me the “I wasn’t on the jury” deal. As far as I can tell, they are all hangable.
Any dissenters?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079668/plotsummary
If it is this same book/movie Yes I am.One of the arresting CHP officers (he passed away just a couple years ago) son has an outstanding deli & butcher shop here.
My sentiment remains that a thousand guilty men should go free before even ONE innocent is punished.
Our justice system does not fulfil that. Until it does there should be no death penalty without significant redundancy in appeal.
A thousand guilty men should go free before even ONE innocent is punished.
Our justice system does not meet that standard. Until it does, the death penalty MUST have exhaustive redundant appeal.
Well, Fleetshit, NO ONE on the blog has suggeszted that anyone on Death Row in Kansas is innocent.
No one has suggested anything to that effect – however, in your right wing overwhelming desire to kill anyone or anything, you would rather kill innocent men rather than admit you were wrong.
I can only hope, Fleet, actually I PRAY that one day, one day soon, you will find yourself on the wrong end of the Death Penalty.
And when that happens, I hope that you remember that you did not give a good goddamn if innocent people were executed.
And when they throw the switch on you, Fleet, I hope that your last thought is “well, NO ONE on Death Row in Kansas is innocent.”
Truth be told, with such hate in your heart WS it is more likely you that could end up on the other end of that switch and for good reason. And possibly for all eternity, truth be told.However, truth be told, I do not wish this upon you.
Thank God I’m a bleeding heart liberal.
ws- I don’t wish death upon you. But you do make my point that this is not about executing innocent people, it’s about not executing anyone. You have indicated that do one on the Kansas death row is innocent, so why not fry them tomorrow.
Stop the “killing innocent people” crap. Here in Kansas, we should execute the guilty.
Why wouldn’t you agree with that?
A thousand guilty men should go free before even ONE innocent is punished.
This is the epitome of the liberal logic, truth be told.Release a thousand rapists, murderers so 10,000’s more can be victimized (raped, murdered, tortured) to save the life of one who is most likely guilt of “something”.Absolutely no honor, truth be told.
Sorry, but I have never even come close to killing anyone. Fleet, on the other hand, is always advocating the death of someone.
Actually, Fleet has advocated that I be executed.
The man (?) wants me dead.
So, in the interest of fair play, I would like to go on record tonight as volunteering to serve on the panel that throws the switch to execute Fleet.
Actually, I would do it for free.
Well, actually I would pay to have the opportunity to throw the switch on Fleet.
The American legal system is set up to protect the defendant. It is set up so the peers are the ones who condemn them. It’s not perfect, but what is. Between all the appeals, evidence rules, Maranda rights etc. Give me a break. Why are the Carr brothers and everyone else on Kansas death row alive today?
The answer is the bleeding hearts care more about these bastards than they should. Every life is sacred? Bullshit!
Fleetshit – answer the question about the 123 innocents.
Then babble on about every life being sacred.
And don’t claim that they (the 123) must have been guilty – you have no expertise on the individual cases.
And before it is brought up (JR), truth be told, I would be one to volunteer to lay down my life (as an innocent) rather than see 1,0000 guilt rapists/murderers go free.
(John 15:13) “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”
Truth be told, the greater question is, Why wouldn’t one of you?
ws- I have said over and over that I regret my Treason accusation, but I have seen you use over and over use it as some kind of victim cover. Why do you keep that deal up? I suspect it gives you comfort.I do stand by my charge of sedition, which is different and more accurate.
Your wishes for my death and willingness to help tells more about you and yours than anything else.
I’m waiting for the defense of the Kansas death row folks. Defending the indefensible is you people’s gig.
A thousand guilty men should go free before even ONE innocent is punished.
Our justice system does not meet that standard. Until it does, the death penalty MUST have exhaustive redundant appeal.
Posted by: J R | February 16, 2007 at 07:34 PM
Truth be told, the reply in question was not even directed to you WS. It is not all about YOU, truth be told. Truth be told, I will forgive you your tiny IQ, but not your personal attacks. Read before attacking you diseased rhinocerous pizzle.If 1,000 GUILTY murderers and rapists are let go in favor of 1 innocent, Tens of Thousands will be victimized by the 1,000 let go. Does this spell it out for you clear enough?
It seems to me that if innocent persons are being put to death – the problem lies not with the Death Penalty, but with local prosecution and police departments.
DA’s want to appear ‘tough on crime,’ and police officers want to ‘get their man.
By the time we reach a conviction – the truth should be readily apparent, but innocents languish behind bars.
But I can’t agree that it is the fault of the Death Penalty that they are there.
Perhaps we need to look elsewhere.
WS – it is sad that 123 innocents were put to death.
But compare that to an average of 16,000 innocents killed by drunk drivers every year.
Everytime an innocent dies – it is a tragedy.
But is it a tragedy when murderers die?
So, General Sherri, you are STILL okay with executing innocent people, because it is not the fault of the Death Penalty?
So, what would your opinion be if it was YOU that was facing execution?
ws meltdown in negative:8 minutes to go7 minutes to go…
I’m waiting for the defense of the Kansas death row folks.
I suspect they know that everyone of them actually did what they were accused of doing and that makes it all real.
When you defending a death row inmate that you read about on bleedingheart.com, you might think that what you doing is honorable and good and just and forgetting about the actual victim of the crime (It’s ironic that the party of “saving every victim from themselves” refuses to allow justice to real victims.
If you have trouble with my sentiment you may take it up with Thomas Jefferson, whose words I borrowed to express it.
No – WS, I’m not “okay” with it, but I accept it as a sad byproduct of a penal system that, unfortunately, is needed to keep law and order.
The vast majority of Death Penalty folks are guilty.
If I were wrongly accused of murder – I would much prefer death as to being forced to exist for 50 years behind bars.
It seems more humane.
Have you been drinking WS? Is that why can’t you discuss an issue without all the vugarities and name calling?Your kids must be real proud.
“The vast majority of Death Penalty folks are guilty.”
So let’s line up General Sherri, Mary the Hypocrite and Fleetwood up on Death Row and let’s execute them.
Now, Fleet KNOWS that I have not said a word in defense of the people on Death Row in Kansas, yet he still tries that bait and switch.
General Sherri says that she would be okay with being executed, even if she is innocent.
And Mary? Well Mary just is okay with killing anyone or anything, just as long it is not a in utero fetus.
Oh, by the way Mary, what kind of parent would I be if I did NOT defend innocent people?
rm, “The Truth, fleetie
“They have forgotten about justice. They want revenge.
Revenge! The most WORTHLESS of causes.”
King Arthur- “Camelot”
To tell the truth, no pun intended, I cannot believe that there are people on this blog that would ACTUALLY defend the execution of innocent people.
That amazes me. That is unbelieveable. That is mindbogging.
There are actually people here – presumably normal people – that would be perfectly fine with executing INNOCENT people.
Jesus Christ, that is disgusting.
You folks are CONCERNED about my LANGUAGE, yet killing innocent people is no problem for you?
…. and that is why we call you Mary the Hypocrite. An adult is fine to kill, but god forbid that you should terminate a pregnancy.
And contrary to your hypocritical comment “so passionate about defending murderers on death row,” I have never defended murderers on Death Row – I have defended INNOCENT people on Death Row.
There is a significant difference.
So, according to you, Mary the Hypocrite, you think that women should not have a choice concerning their pregnancies, but you are PERFECTLY fine with executing INNOCENT people?
And before you start throwing fleet around, read the link that said that the 123 were PROVEN to be innocent.
Then STFU.
Answer my question WS, then go sleep it off.You think it’s OK to kill humans as long as you can’t see them suffer? Oh I forget, a fetus isn’t a human, is it?
I’ve never said I think it’s Ok to kill innocent people…you really enjoy assuming things and putting words in other peole’s mouths. Your world is pretty small, isn’t it WS?
So, when you are falsely accused of murder and sentenced to death, you are just fine with that?
This thread was not about abortion, Mary the Hypocrite.
I am sorry to say, but not everything is about your favorite crusade. I never addressed the issue of abortion on this thread – you were the idiot that brought it up.
The commentary was about the 123 INNOCENT men and women that have been released from Death Row after they were PROVEN to be innocent.
I realize that it is tough for you to understand, but they whole world does not revolve around the abortion issue.
Now, address the issue that I brought up or STFU…..
There have been 123 men released from Death Row after having been PROVEN innocent. Given that fact, shouldn’t the Death Penalty be suspended until the system is fixed?
Where’d you go WS? Come back and fight like a man!
You still haven’t answered my question. What’s wrong, the cat got your balls?
Of course I think the system should be “fixed”, but the Carr brothers and others are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I think they should have to foreft their life for the ones they took. What’s so unfair about that?YOU were the one who brought up my stance on the abortion issue “idiot”.
WS
I TOO am troubled that there are those who value revenge over true justice.
It makes me angry that they have forgotten the sentiment of Jefferson.
So your outrage IS righteous.
But
You MIGHT dial your rhetoric back a bit?
I know . . . it drives ya nuts, doesn’t it.
But don’t let it drive ya nuts.
“Where’d you go WS? Come back and fight like a man!”
Two minutes after my post, J R and you want me to DIAL back MY rhetoric?
“Where’d you go WS? Come back and fight like a man!”
Two minutes after my post, J R and you want me to DIAL back MY rhetoric?
“Where’d you go WS? Come back and fight like a man!”
Two minutes after my post, J R and you want me to DIAL back MY rhetoric?
Clark,
You are taking FleetTroll wayyyy… too seriously, I can tell ya that.
What interests me more than anything else on this subject, is it a conservative talking point to say “that no poll is unbiased”? Pollsters who do sampling that are not reflecting the population parameters they are hoping to estimate, don’t stay in business very long.
There is a polling statistic called a confidence interval estimate – and varying degrees of certainty are possible. Commonly called the margin of error – the degree of uncertainty is specifically spelled out. If this is what you mean by biased, you might want to take an undergraduate course on inferential statistics.
In the article linked in the intro to this thread, the pollster clearly found that those sampled did not believe that any on Kansas death row were there due to some error. That finding was different, apparently, than in other states.
The finding that if the comparison is made between death penalty vs. life in prison — there is a much more close margin than when the comparison is death vs. light sentence; this finding is consistent with national polls. Kansans are probably not much different than the rest of the U.S. population on this score.
You can’t win against these people, Clarkster.
Their minds are made up–it can’t be changed by rational argument.
If you have a fast connection, check out this YouTube of Richie Havens. Let it download and then listen to the last song at 47 minutes.
“Blood on the Wire” Totally rocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0m0CjTMXM&mode=related&search=
I am already nuts, Capn, but I am nuts for America and all that we believe in.
Not some Rush O’Hannity version of America.
Just once, I would like to see some of these kill-first-ask-questions-later folks actually do it.
Take the condemmed, strap him in a chair and give these PRO-DEATH folks a serratted knife. Let them carry out the sentence. No backing away. No injections. No blindfolds.
Just let all of these pro-death folks do the killing.
I wonder how many times they would have to have their diapers changed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQqTxK7VhSk
And after you listen to that, click on Curtis Mayfield singing “People Get Ready” live above.
The man who is tired of that song is tired of life . . .
I never thought I would see the day I would agree with WS but here goes. If you have not read John Grisham’s latest book, do. It is about justice in a small town, set in Ada, Oklahoma. It is his first attempt at non-fiction and I was mesmerized. I will never be able to look at capital punishment in the same way again.
WS the fact that these 123 you keep talking about were released would indicate that the system is getting better. I can understand the outrage about the Carrs and Klepas. They should be kept in solitary for the rest of their sorry lives.
Grm,
I read the same book! It was so distressing that my 70+ yr old mother was afraid that her grandchildren would think ill of her, since she was from Oklahoma. There is plenty of shame for all of us to share!
Appreciate you, grm.
WSC, you’ve got a hell of a lot more intelligence than you’re exhibiting right now. Take a breath, buddy. Name calling ain’t gonna’ get it. And “An Innocent Man” by John Grisham is frightening and heartbreaking, all at once. But, thank God, it’s an isolated aberration of the system — that’s why it’s a best seller. But, calm down friend, you’re credibility deserves better.
“General Sherri says that she would be okay with being executed, even if she is innocent.”
Step back a minute and read that post again, because this is what she said:
“If I were wrongly accused of murder – I would much prefer death as to being forced to exist for 50 years behind bars.
It seems more humane.”
It’s true, GS. For many people the death penalty IS more humane. For others, it wouldn’t matter. Life with no chance of parole can’t be a fun thing. And, depending on what murder you committed, your life might not be all that long…in prison.
“I think they should have to foreft their life for the ones they took.”
I’ve heard that the majority of family members of the victims who were all for the death penalty found that when it was over, they didn’t truly get the relief and peace they had thought they would. And, no, I don’t have a link to that. Just observation over a lot of years.
Taking one life because another was taken doesn’t bring back the first. Some may feel it’s revenge, some may feel the murder has been avenged, but it doesn’t really even things out.
There was a time when I believed the murderer should receive the same death that he/she served the victim(s). Then I became a fence-sitter on the subject of the death penalty. But after listening to a discussion of this by local attorneys early one morning on the radio (George Gardner’s program, I think), I gave it more thought. For a lot of people, life behind bars would be far worse than being put to death. Knowing you would never walk outside of prison walls would not be easy.
It’s like funerals. They aren’t really for the person we’ve lost, they’re for those left behind. Because the death penalty for some means very little, it is, in effect, not for the victim, but for those left behind, too.
The Death Penalty has been proven NOT to be a deterrent. People who are crazy enough to kill (not insane, just crazy) do it believe that they won’t get caught or never give it any thought.
Just curious, but how many here have had a friend or family member murdered? Not a friend of a friend or someone you’ve met, but someone close?
RD: Me!
RD – thankfully, I’ve never had a loved one murdered, and in reality, I’m more like you – a fence-sitter when it comes to the Death Penalty.
That’s why I don’t advocate either way – I just respect the majority of the voter’s opinion on this one. I can see both sides.
You’re correct that it is not a deterrent – or a penalty really. After all – we ALL have to do it…die that is. If it’s a ‘blessing’ that old Aunt Sarah finally passed – how can it be a penalty when someone else passes?
For me, personally, I can’t conceive of being locked up for years. I would probably take my own life.
But the citizens want the Death Penalty – so I respect that. Maybe we should concentrate more on insisting that the prosecution and Police Departments toe the line, so we don’t have innocents on Death Row.
I think that’s what is behind this whole thing – innocents falsely accused.
That’s what we should be working on.
“Take a breath, buddy”
Well, I took a deep breath, RM. Actually, my granddaughter and I made breakfast for my son – today’s his 20th birthday – and now we’re making a cake.
The thing that ticks me off is that some are so quick to dismiss the fact that there are innocents on Death Row. The jury made a mistake for the defense on the O J Simpson case – they make mistakes for the prosecution all the time. Why would anyone think differently?
But of course the argument gets twisted.
First, Fleet wants me to “prove” the innocence of anyone on Death Row in Kansas. Of course, I had never even SUGGESTED that anyone on Death Row in Kansas was innocent.
Then, Caruso says I am “passionate” in my defense of murderers and rapists while not caring about the aborted babies. I am passionate about NOT EXECUTING innocent people. I never defended murderers or rapists. I have never taken an approach that we should RELEASE convicted killers. That is just more distortion of my position.
As for the abortion issue – there is no connection between the Death Penalty and abortion.
It is typical of the far right wing fools to dismiss the fact that 123 innocent people have been released from Death Row. In our blood lust to kill Kleypas and the Carrs, we all need to take a deep breath and realize that the system is broken and we need to fix it before we proceed.
I certainly empathize with anyone that has lost a family member or friend to violence. When I was married to my first wife, I was watching television one night when a news report released the information that her Aunt and Uncle had been murdered in Detroit by intruders. Her Uncle had been on the phone with 911 as he was shot to death.
Violence has hit close to home for me too. I am a great supporter of the LE professionals and I support tough sentences for criminals.
But we can’t allow emotion to dictate the application of the Death Penalty until we fix the system.
SherriBaby couldn’t bear being locked up because she apparently can’t stand being with herself.
Sounds about right.
I on the other hand would appreciate the time to get caught up on my reading . . .
Since Toto’s not in Kansas anymore, I could let this pass, but. . .
I find it perversely fascinating that there are people on this thread who apparently think knowingly sending innocent people to their deaths is okay, so long as we get to kill some baddies, too.
And without so much as a fig-leaf of pretense that there’s somehow an awesomely higher good justifies killing the innocent, something so compelling that it absolutely mandates state-sanctioned murder. Nice.
These are the people who shout down reason and get us into unnecessary wars.
rm
I am sorry for your loss and experience.
I half suspected such was behind your posts here. They are more understandable now.
But the death of 999 criminals and 1 innocent man will not bring your lost one back.
Remember we are discussing justice, not revenge.
GS,”I think that’s what is behind this whole thing – innocents falsely accused.”
And I think that’s the point. We all must realize that there is no “perfect” in the system, therefore the taking of a life for a life (in itself flawed, IMO) isn’t the best answer.
Would I like to see the Carrs tortured, raped, shot, and run over by a truck? You bet! But another part of me says that doing so would mean becoming the same type of animal. Death for them by injection, on the other hand, seems like a pretty easy out. Let ‘em rot until they die in prison. No parole, no visits from family or anyone except behind glass.
If 123 were found innocent, how many others are there that didn’t get that break?
If there was no Death Penalty, that 123 number wouldn’t be nearly so bad.
“ I believe that one out of every one hundred that are convicted are truly not guilty! But that means that ninety nine out of every one hundred are. If the one is the price we have to pay to get the other ninety nine off the street… It is worth it!”
I was told that by a sergeant when I worked as a detention officer for the Sedgwick County Sheriffs department. I can see both side of this issue, the argument bring back my thoughts on the one example that I personally know about that is the best argument on WS side. Ivory Hayslip was truly not guilty of the murder of Officer Paul Garoffalow in 1980. I spoke with virtually all the witnesses, knew both Hayslip and Anthony Ray Martin from working at the jail. Heard about the behind the scene goings on in the case.
Now if ever there was a case that could be used as a example for the death penalty it was that one. Three eye witnesses that positively identified Hayslip as the murder, one Anthony Ray Martin actually testified that he saw Hayslip firing the shotgun that kill the officer. Regina Franklin stated that when the shots were fired, she looked over the top of the patrol car and saw Hayslip standing at the other side. Darrell Jackson stated that when the shots were fired, he saw Hayslip run from the other side of the patrol car. Good case against Hayslip on the face of it.
But as time passed and Hayslip was found guilty, more witnesses came forward and the case unraveled.Now if you recall there were three trials of Hayslip and each brought a guilt verdict. Even though by then Martin had been identified as the murder by every other witness that came forward after Hayslip’s first conviction. One of those witnesses was Martin own cousin that had grown up with him and should not be mistaken in who he is. Ironically, it was that very thought of what if it was me that had been wrongfully convicted of killing a cop. That finally brought the cousin to come forward, even though he knew that Martin was fully capable of killing him without thought.
A federal judge order the U.S. Marshall’s to investigate the case and they concluded that the conviction of Hayslip was in error and even that the state may very well know whom was the actual killer. The Federal judge order the state to re-trial Hayslip. But still even with mounting evidence of Hayslip’s innocents he was still convicted two more times. Martin was finally found not guilty on an appeal, with the foreman of the jury saying this upon the trial ending. “All the evidence that the state presented showed it was Anthony Ray Martin that was the killer of Officer Paul Garoffalow. But we were not asked to decide that, we were asked to decide if Martin handed the shotgun to Hayslip. The state presented no evidence to that being the case. So we had no choice but to find Martin not guilty!”.
Ivory Hayslip died of Kidney disease in El Dorado prison some years ago, the last I heard of Martin is he lives in California and has since recanted his identification of Hayslip as the killer.
Yes, if Kansas had the death penalty back in the early eighties Hayslip would have been sentence to death.Again I have no doubt as to him being innocent of the crime he end up spending the rest of his life in prison for. The system failed far worst then any of us would even dire to dream it could in that case.
But we still have the best legal system in the world, such cases rarely occur and I do support the death penalty. But make no mistake, innocent people are wrongfully convicted every year. Part of what gives us the best legal system in the world IS the fear we will convict an innocent person. It is the right of the individual and not the state that is of real important’s in these matters. That is what make our system the greatest. There should always be doubt, but that is why the test is beyond a reasonable doubt. The system should be constantly fine tuned, there are real errors and as has been pointed out. Once someone is executed, there is no turning back. The other side of the coin with the Carrs is that most cases are not that cut and dry. A lot of hard work goes into them, as it should be so that the truly guilt are the one being punished. It is actually frighteningly easy to end up being arrested and tried. That is why it should be very hard to convict. A mistake as it was with Ivory Hayslip should have never been allow to end as it did.
Very well said, dog.
I find it hard to imagine that ANYONE would be accepting of killing one innocent man so that the other ninety-nine could be executed, especially since the option would be to give all one hundred life in prison without the possibility of parole.
At least with a life sentence, an innocent man would continue to have the option of being proven innocent.
With the Death Penalty, after he is proven innocent, all that you can do is say “whoops! my bad!”
Somehow, “whoops! my bad!” really doesn’t cut it when you have executed an innocent man.
…. and by the way, life in prison without the possibility of parole means just that – once they close the cell door, the only way that you will get out is in a coffin.
I am so over wscracker, painful just reading that stuff. I hope your computer get’s a virus and you can write for a week. What a shame that would be depriving the world of your profane ramblings
Ah, Craigie, did I use a word that offended your delicate sensibilities?
You know what if REALLY profane, Craigie?
Executing an innocent man because the right wingers were so bent on killing people for revenge.
I have this question for you guys. How many people are injured/assaulted/victimized by parolees, released convicts, criminals that scraped through the system each year? Minimum of 13,000. Each year, and those figures are actually somewhat old. They’ve gone up since then. Is the death of one innocent man/woman worth the risk? Invariably, something that individual did/was doing at the time brought them to the attention of law enforcement. There had to be overwhelming proof that they were in some way shape or form connected to the investigation. The Carrs killed 4 people, in one night. The other will be affected for the rest of her life. I obey the law, I don’t break it. I sincerely doubt that I will ever come to the attention of a murder investigation, and I don’t rape women. I’m not a criminal in any way, shape or form.
Justice is designed to be swift and sure. The death penalty, as mentioned in previous posts, is not a deterrent anymore. This is due to the fact that justice is not swift. You don’t hear about the execution when you’re still feeling the horror of what the individual did to deserve it. You don’t hear about the execution that much at all anymore. It’s a newspaper you glance over in the morning, thinking “sucks to be him.” You don’t feel what the family feels knowing that the man who raped/murdered you’re son/daughter, friend, relative just died. You don’t feel the rage of a father who couldn’t protect his daughter from an animal. Is killing one innocent man worth killing 4-10 (any number you want) guilty people? YES. Because that way you know those guilty people won’t kill/harm anyone else. I say take em out behind the courthouse, put a bullet in the head, and bill the family. If they raised such a worthless piece of garbage, they should pay the bill for the job.
At what point does the victim of a crime lose their rights? Because their dead? Their dead because the justice system as a whole, the society as a whole is failing. It’s not failing because “children aren’t being comforted enough”, or “violence is too much a part of their lives.” If that’s the case, explain 50 years ago when fist fights between children were accepted. the matter was handled and done with. Now you call the police because your son/daughter got in a shoving match on the playground. This society does not care for it’s own anymore. It does not fight for it’s own, protect it’s own and it does NOT seek justice for it’s own.
You weed the garden. You get rid of the bad seed. You kill the killers. Do you want a 15yr old knowing they can get away with murder because they’re 15, and a society doesen’t want to sentence a child to death? I knew damn well at 15 what it was to break the law. Anybody that uses the excuse that they didn’t know what they were doing definitely needs to seek counsel. If you can figure out how to use a knife, pull a trigger or drive a car, you know what you’re doing. If it’s due to drugs/alcohol, well, you had to know where to put it to get that way to begin with. And you did it voluntarily.
The excuse, because they’re poor?
My wife and mine’s families started out dirt poor. They fought their way up, providing for us. We intend to do the same when we decide to have children ourselves.
I’m 27 yrs old, I’m not conservative, nor am I a liberal. I’m simply me. I do not agree with political propagandizing to gain votes, nor do I agree with trivializing a subject because some people don’t agree with it. If you don’t agree with the death penalty, then are you going out of your way to visit prisons and jails to discuss this with the inmates? If you feel they’re getting sentenced to die, are you sending aid money to their defense counsel? Are you donating funds to the public defenders office? I sincerely doubt it. You might make a deposit of a small reasonable amount once or twice a year, at the most.
You say an innocent man is worth letting the guilty go free. Why are they not worth more of your time and money? Because you have your own life to lead?
While you’re leading your life, people are dying, and because it’s not politically correct to fight for the death of a person anymore, the District Attourneys and prosecutors can’t do their job to the extreme that this requires. Because their trying to lead their lives, and make sure they have a job next month/year. You deciding that a dead person doesen’t deserve justice, or they don’t matter anymore is even worse of a crime than the actual individual committed.
Do you actually feel good when you look at yourself in the mirror?
“You say an innocent man is worth letting the guilty go free.”
Horsecrap. That is absolutely horsecrap.
What has been advocated – over and over and over again – is LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE.
So apparently, Derby, you are okay with killing innocent people in the name of law and order?
Let’s look at this from an economic standpoint WsClark.
Life in Prison without Parole.
HORSECRAP! Absolute Horsecrap!
Bud, I’ve worked in a jail. I spent 5 years working in Sedgwick County. There are people who break the law just to get 3 meals and a cot for the night, or for the winter. Are you honestly going to sit there and say you want your money paying for people who won’t absolutely fight to make it better for themselves?
Why should my money pay for a criminal’s college education, especially since he won’t be using it in society? Why should I provide cable tv, proper food, and EXPENSIVE medical care for someone who raped/murdered, stole, burned, sold drugs to your kids.
Am I for killing an innocent man to punish the guilty? Drastic times call for Drastic measures. Draconian measures are necessary to return society to a equilibrium. Once that is returned,it would be possible to back it off again, IF THAT WERE IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF SOCIETY. Look at other countries were justice is swift, and SURE. Their crimes rates are minimal. As pointed out earlier, this country has one of the finest systems designed to provide beyond a reasonable doubt. If that is compromised, or there is a flaw, nothing is perfect. For you to sit there and say, “yes, lock em all up for the rest of their lives,” you don’t seem to realize what it is you’re asking for. Prisons are already overcrowded. Individuals going into prison for lesser crimes are coming out better criminals. It is a different life, and a different society within the walls of any sort of detention facility. Their called Correctional facilities (prisons) but the only thing they correct is getting caught the first time. By the time someone does 5-10yrs they are no longer capable of functioning in society. Do you want that back in our society?
It is interesting and troubling to me that as the gap between the rich and poor widens we have these appeals for summary justice with a minimum regard to guilt or innocence.
“Am I for killing an innocent man to punish the guilty? Drastic times call for Drastic measures”
So, rather than give murderers and rapists a sentence of life without parole, you would rahter kill innocent people.
God, I am damned glad that I do NOT know you personally. What a horrible thought – kill the innocent.
123 have been released directly from Death Row. Another seven have been executed that were probably innocent. Countless more are in prison or on Death Row while being innocent.
But you feel that you can brush all that aside with the comment that drastic measures are required.
I wonder what YOUR response would be if it was you innocently facing the executioner.
Clark, I think you are dealing with the “kill’em all, let God sort ‘em out” crowd.
A very difficult crowd to deal with indeed!
“kill’em all, let God sort ‘em out”
You are mostly likely right Grrl, but they certainly backstep quickly when asked what they would do if it was THEM that was being strapped to the gurney.
Of course, there always a few that say that they would be fine with it because they would be going to a better place…..
Liars.
“Look at other countries were justice is swift, and SURE.”
Saudi Arabia? Iran?
Before extolling the virtues of those countries, look at most of Western Europe and England. They do not have the Death Penalty and their crime rates, particularly murders, are far, far less than the United States.
That kind of blows your argument out of the water.
Unless, of course, you would like the United States to be more like Saudi Arabia.
The remark about the widening divide between the rich and the poor is just a crutch that our society uses to excuse bad behavior. It starts in our schools and some people carry it with them their entire lifes. During the depression when so many people had very litte crimes went down.
We raised a little boy from second grade until he was a senior in high school. He had all kinds of promise, honor roll student, class president – but biological parents who didn’t want him around.
He dropped out of school while a senior, started stealing small things, sold some pot and came to the attention of the local police.
On December 27th, 1988 his body was found by a pond in NE Oklahoma with his face blown off.
That murder has never been solved eventhough it was featured on Americas Most Wanted.
What I am trying to say is that parents have a major responsibility to stay involved everyday in their childrens lives. Ask the hard questions, exact the punishment if needed. I regret that I never went to court and got custody of this boy legally. When he went through his rebellious years he realized he had a lot more freedom at his mom’s house.
All this to say I used to support capital punishment but can no longer do that. I couldn’t stand the thought of one innocent person being executed. But we in this society have to improve the justice system. No more light sentences. If guilty the time has to suit the crime. It isn’t enough to say we are against capital punishment. We need to become involved with as many youth as possible. By properly training them in the virtues of honesty and treating others as we would want to be treated – we will be raising fewer young men and women that are now ending up on death row.
Good God Almighty – what a day! So far, I have found myself in agreement with Raptor, Joe and now Germie.
There must be something in the air!
Next, you’re going to tell me that Fleet is in agreement that that War on Iraq was a mistake and Golf Nut admits to being a posuer.
Wow!
We’ll disagree again – I am sure. But on this issue I concur. Enjoy it while it lasts!
So, the wife went on vacation to see her mother and she took the kids. Things have not been going real well at home. You worked late, so rather than reheat something for dinner, you stopped at a bar for a burger and beer on the way home.
She looked good and you were feeling a bit playful, so you went with it. Before you knew it, you were in a back booth and things got a little out of hand. Suddenly, her husband showed up and a few angry words were exchanged. Embarrassed and angry, you left the bar just a moment after they did.
The next day, the police found your female friend and her husband dead in their car, parked in the back lot of the bar. The bartender remembered the harsh words you had with her husband. When the police asked you about it, you denied everything, but the cops found a stolen .38 on the floor in the back of your car. Ballistics showed that the gun that killed the bar couple was the gun that was found on the floor of your car.
DNA evidence places you with the woman and the bartender’s testimony suggests a motive and timing. The police testify that you lied about having any knowledge of the murdered woman. You are found guilty and sentenced to death.
You only have thirty days to appeal and avoid execution. The only thing that you have going for you is finally owning up to having had a physical relationship with the woman before her husband showed up, but the judges are not convinced.
Your wife has filed for divorce, your children have disowned you and the community has turned against you. They strap you to a gurney and you await your execution.
Three weeks after your execution, the murdered man’s business partner admits that he was at the bar. He confesses that he killed the man and woman and threw the .38 into the back of your car.
Justice?
What if we could come up with a sure -fire way of determining guilt and innocence?
At present, there isn’t any, as far as I know – but what if there were? An absolute truth serum or something.
Would those opposed to Capital Punishment now – then support it?
Truth serum is called a polygraph test. The man in question would pass it,truth be told.It is liberal rights organizations that have kept such technology from being admissable in court, truth be told.
Well, I’m not sure about the reliability of that test – never having taken one, but I would like to further understand the resistance to the Death Penalty.
If I read this thread correctly – those who are opposed, are so due to the lack of total proof that those on Death Row are really guilty.
But if there were an ABSOLUTE way to determine guilt – that would remove that hurdle.
Or would it? Would they still oppose it?
“It is liberal rights organizations that have kept such technology from being admissable in court, truth be told.”
Murderers that later confessed have passed lie detector tests. Innocent people have failed lie detector tests.
The more sociopathic the individual, the more likely it is that they will pass a lie detector test, regardless of their guilt.
That is why lie detector test results are not allowed in courft, along with the Fifth Admendment violation.
WS, I believe you are correct in your assessment about the lie detector – but if there WERE an absolute way – would you then support the Death Penalty?
Would I support throwing the switch on Jonathan and Reginald Carr?
Damned right I would.
Kleypas – Belt – Scott Cheever?
Damned right.
But to execute a man because someone – an alleged co-conspirator – received immunity for his testimony and that is the ONLY evidence?
Never.
The proof has to be overwhelming and there needs to be a confession or at least a lack of defense.
The Truth? Polygraph tests are NOT reliable! Their are individuals who have demonstrated that the machine can be beat. Absolute proof? You mean like a confession as in the case of BTK Dennis Rader? Now in THAT case I would let justice proceed faster. But…..I am not the law. I’m sure one of our lawyers will confirm that you cannot have different forms of justice for different people. SO evne though we KNOW he is guilty he is still entitled to all of his appeals and other rights. And that is good. If it means that even one innocent man does not die for a crime he did not commit? That is good. Hey the life of the Carrs and Rader is no picnic. They are alone in a small cell 23 hours a day. They have almost no priveledges. I call that WORSE than death.
Well if the life that the Carrs lead now is worse than death JR, let’s go ahead and give ‘em a break. The sooner the better.
Well, you ARE being consistent, WS, I had wondered if the emotion of not wanting the ‘blood on one’s hands,’ due to taxpayer money financing the execution had some place in your feelings.
Consider childhood vaccines. Politicalmom has most of the specs on those – but some tiny children (innocents) die from the injections, yet we still require them of all babies.
You could say we are also giving them a Death Penalty, so society can live safer.
I think that’s kind of the same thing.
Don’t you?
Is the welfare of the individual greater than the welfare of society?
I don’t really have the answer to that.
“Is the welfare of the individual greater than the welfare of society?”
How much more welfare do you need from the criminal element than LIFE IN PRISON WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE?
Until we can be absolutely assured that the innocent will not be executed, ALL executions should be halted.
If you do not do that, WHO among us is going to draw the line?
Who is to say that these men should die and these are questionable?
The sketched out a scenario where an innocent man COULD be falsely accused and sentenced to death.
It can happen. It does happen. And undoubtedly, there have been innocent men executed.
GSheridan
I WAS going to call that a badly flawed comparison.
Then on further thought, I realized it was actually a good one. Just not the way you made it.
The number of infants that die by vaccine has to be VANISHINGLY small. It is a tragic accident.
Now you COULD argue that execution of an innocent is a vanishingly small tragic accident. But there your analogy runs into trouble.
If an infant dies by vaccine, there is exhaustive search into why. Research starts to look for a safer vaccine. The net benefit for society is positive.
If an innocent is executed there is NO positive benefit to society. The expedition of execution of the guilty being a positive experience for only a handful of the criminals victims families.
My question for the fast track advocates is quite simple….
A man is executed for killing your friend or a member of your family. You attend his execution and you are disgusted that until the very end he asserts his innocence. You are disgusted by the anti-death penalty protesters outside the prison walls. You are interviewed on television and claim to be satisfied that such a monster has been killed to avenge your loved one’s murder.
A year later, the man that was executed is proven to be innocent. Your anger and hatred towards him and his family was misplaced. But there is something far worse to deal with. Something that you never even considered.
The real killer is still out there.
GSheridan,
“Consider childhood vaccines.”
No, let’s instead consider all the premature deaths, and health problems caused by pollution from coal-fired power plants.
AND the likely dire consequences of climate change in the future, caused by the GHG’s they emit.
ARE the profits of the coal industry more important than the welfare of society… and our Earth’s future generations?
I have to admit some surprise at the number that say that they would approve of the killing of an innocent man for the sake of executing the guilty. As I said I am in favor of the death penalty, the only reason as has been stated. Some by their action demonstrate that they should not and could not be allowed to continue to live amongst human beings. A survey of those on California’s death row in 1973 found that not one of those surveyed ever considered they might be put to death before committing the crime that ended them up on death row.
I all to well know that some people are falsely convicted, that the system is not perfect in administrating justice. SW’s scenario is not only plausible but familiar as some cases are just that way. That is why the death penalty should only be given in the most sure and even more horror-able cases. In the five years as a jailor I met a number of murders. Some it was simple circumstance that lead them to kill, while other is was premeditated and cold. But to say that you would approve of an innocent to be killed by the state.Is far colder then most murders I have ever met and see no difference between the two in the action.It maybe only in your mind that you are fit to judge another!
Well said, again, dog, but I ask you this: If the death penalty existed in Kansas in 1980 (and all of it attendant pressure to “get it done”), what are the odds that Haislip would have been executed without even receiving a 2nd trial?
Rage – as far as I know – any Death Penalty conviction is immediately appealed, but perhaps a lawyer will happen by and weigh in.
WS – You are correct that the real killer is still out there anytime an innocent is convicted, and, to me, this is a travesty for which those involved should be imprisoned.
We have people either fudging evidence at local-level law enforcement, jury’s that have no business existing, or the archaic ‘rules of the court’ that are presenting us with this fiasco.
It is NO LESS a travesty that an innocent spend 40 years behind bars, than that he wrongfully be put to death. Both are horrible.
Life behind bars is not life.
I’m tired of judges who decide whether or not to allow evidence, and the lives of citizens that must depend upon the integrity of attorney’s (an oxymoron, if ever there was one,) while they vie for a ‘win’ for themselves with little thought for the client involved.
But what of the families of victims who have already suffered a horrific loss?
What of the parents who struggle to make ends meet and put food on their table, knowing that the monster who raped and killed their wee one is eating tonight, partially fed and sheltered by their tax dollars. That HAS to be a nightmare. Do they deserve that?
That’s all I’m asking.
Sadly I admit that if Kansas had the death penalty in the early eighties Irovy Hayslip would have been died by now of state murder rather then natural causes.
His case was a text book example of how wrong the legal system could go. Again I say in his first trial on the face of it. It was a “dead-bang” case. And was the text book example for the Death penalty. Much as the Carr brothers case is ( though in Hayslip’s case there was not even a quarter of the evidence against him). By the time of his first appeal, there was more then a reasonable doubt.
But yes, the way things went for Hayslip, he would have been put to death for a crime it became apparent he had not committed.
But also, I have to say that Hayslip’s case is by no means typical of the average case. There are real faults in the system that should be addressed. Along with what that Sergeant said years ago, another saying when it comes to the court system is “We do not make mistake…. Even if we do…. WE DON’T!”. But of course some mistakes are made, the court system is clogged and often there is a real push to get a case through in a expedient manner. Plea bargains, short cuts and allowances in the name of expedience. But over all, the vast majority of cases are right and just. The appeals are meant to be the checks and balances, a hard look at what might have been wrong with a case that where not apparent before. The push in the first trial is to get a dangerous person out of society. Yet do so with a fair trial and a just verdict for all concerned. It does not serve justice or society for the wrong man to be convicted. On another topic I said that compliance with the law is voluntary. Citizens have to have faith that the system is working or they will not avail themselves of it. From law enforcement to the court system, there has to be a faith that it is right. Else why would anyone rely on the Police to handle the situations that arise? Why would you depend on the court system to mediate anything in dispute?
“Would those opposed to Capital Punishment now – then support it?”
I may be the only one here to say this. My answer is no.
I’ve stated my case before. I am opposed to the Death Penalty. It took me a long time to fall off the fence on this side, but I doubt I’ll ever climb back on and tip to the other side.
To put it in perspective for some here, WWJD?
I believe in the death penalty for those whose guilt is not in doubt (like the Carr brothers). Two friends of mine were shot in the head and killed during a robbery at a business they managed. They left behind 3 orphans. The murderer was caught, convicted, and sentenced to life, but got out after spending less than 20 yrs in prison. He went right back to his criminal ways and also fathered a child while he was out. He got sent back only to get out again and do the same thing.Now we have to go before the parole board routinely and relive the whole nightmare just to try and keep him in jail, meanwhile his family and his victim’s families are devastated and heart broken, and his little girl is growing up without a dad.If he would have been put to death (which there is no doubt that he committed the crime, he freely admitts he’s guilty) there would have been closure for all of us and his family. As it is now, we will have to keep up the effort to keep him imprisoned until he dies or is released (and that is a another set of problems).I believe that life is only valuble when, if a person chooses to take a life, they must pay for it with their own.Of course I don’t want to see innocent people put to death wrongly, we need to fix the system to guarantee that doesn’t happen, but don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.I’m not too worried about WWJD…I’m not a Christian…but I can see how it would be a delemia for those who are.I’m not posting from my regular email, for some reason my posts won’y go through…maybe I’ve been blocked?
Putting it crudely, we have a situation where murderers are paroled to make room for more drug offenders serving mandatory minimums. Is ANYONE okay with that?
RD: In a mythical world where the practical, chilling concerns about the death penalty didn’t exist, I think I would agree with you. I see it as a barbaric practice, unfit for any civilized society.
But, these days, I will reserve judgment on its ultimate morality, because it’s not even necessary to go there. Death penalty proponents will never succeed in “fixing” it, because it’s unfixable.
In this mythical future where the death penalty “works,” I would be compelled to reconsider my moral objections.