People will see winners and losers in last week’s report on disputed arena land parcels by a court-appointed panel of appraisers, who judged five properties to be worth more than Sedgwick County had offered for them. That’s fine. But even accounting for the pain and expense, the process seems to be working as county leaders intended, and that means the $201 million, 15,000-seat project can move forward. It’s hard to be surprised or unhappy about the panel’s judgment that the Episcopal Social Services building is worth $1.3 million, far more than the offered $500,000. It had a different appraiser than the other sites, inviting disparity. Most important, it will now have the benefit of more funds with which to relocate its precious services to the community.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
-
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in. -
Contact us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- JMWalker on Fairness Doctrine baloney
- Regular on Open thread 11/21
- Jed on Fairness Doctrine baloney
- RightAngle on Open thread 11/22
- HLP on Fairness Doctrine baloney
- RightAngle on Open thread 11/22
- FORD1ST on Open thread 11/22
- HLP on Fairness Doctrine baloney
- Jed on Saudi call for religious tolerance was galling
- href= http://reilsm.hostevo.com/ine7c.html >libby lu birthday party on Pro-con: Should Gates stay on as U.S. secretary of defense?
31 Comments
Let’s face it … Wichita and Sedgwick County have no leadership on the Sedgwick County arena situation. County commissioners, Dave Unruh, Tom Winters and Tim Norton, with tax paid salaries of $65,000 plus lots of extras for serving on minor boards, health insurance, perks and deserts, have not exerted themselves to furnish leadership on this $250,000,000.19 white elephant arena proposal.
As a result, I estimate some 90% of Sedgwick County voters now see all the problems rampant with this ill-advised project AND NOW DON’T WANT IT BUILT AND DON’T WANT TO PAY FOR IT.
The article in this morning’s EAGLE about the proposed privately financed arena in Park City points out how quickly the public financed downtown arena can go down the drain.
It is already known that many of the activities named in the newspaper as potential users of the downtown arena DO NOT PLAN TO USE THE DOWNTOWN ARENA, at least for long. They might use it for a short time until they can arrange for other venues for their activities. The downtown arena will be to expensive, difficult to maintain and inconvenient for users.
So, now its time to make some hard decisions in this county — that is, stop this project in its tracks and revote it before a humongous amount of hard-working taxpayers money is shot down the proverbial drain.
So, above named county commissioners — get off the pot and do what’s necessary or resign.
Where’s Joe Williams?
With all the changes between what we voted on and what is on the table today this is looking more and more like “bait-and-switch”.
Arena cost - advertised $141,517,000. Actual ?
Parking Garaga - advertised $19,400,000 for on-site. Actual ?
Operation/Maintainence Reserve - advertised $23,611,000. Actual ?
Site Acquisition - advertised $20,000,000. Actual ?
The voter narrowly approved that which was advertised. How would they vote on what now seems to be developing?
SMG’s projections for the Arena:
SMG — the company Sedgwick County is hiring to manage a downtown arena — has suggested it can lure the following events to the arena in its first year:
Event Number Attendance at eachWichita Thunder hockey 32 6,000Family shows 20 3,000Indoor football 8 5,000Full-house concerts 8 12,000Half-house concerts 6 8,000Theater concerts 6 4,000Rodeos/bull riding 5 7,000Religious/conventions 4 10,000Graduations/civic 5 3,500Professional wrestling 2 8,000Other sporting events 3 6,000Motorsports 3 5,500NBA/NHL exhibition 2 6,000NCAA basketball tournament 1 10,000High school basketball tournament 1 7,500Banquets/meetings/parties 20 200Totals 126 636,500
Interesting. I have been told that Thunder and football don’t want to be in the Arena. NCAA seems unlikely. Wrestling at 8000 per event?!
And I wonder too … “theater concerts” - is that cannibalising Century II?
Let’s have a re-vote on whether we want this thing at all.
There’s a new free market plan for a small arena in park city. It’ll be funny when the free-market arena beats out the communistic downtown one
The interesting thing about the Park City capitalist arena is that it will likely take at least half of the projected attemdence from the Communist arena. Note particularly the Thunder.
What is also interesting about the Park City arena is the decision made about its size. As I read the Sunday article, and other articles, Mr. Hartman took a good look at average attendance at a variety of events in determining the 5,000 seat capacity.
I agree, Ben, the potential for “bleeding” about one-half the albino pachyderm’s projected attendance is there, and I suspect will be realized in futuro.
Since the park city arena is a capitalistic it probably will have adequate parking also
“In its first year, the arena could take in $1.4 million before management fees, property taxes and property insurance, according to the proposal.”——-WHAT? In its first YEAR the arena will ONLY make $1.4 million (before fees and taxes, so that will likely drop the figure to $900,000).So we are spending $210 Million for a business venture that is only going to bring in $1 Million a year. GREAT! Just think, after 210 YEARS the arena will have paid for itself.
This was posted by an unknown poster in another article (A Battle of the Venues brew) and I thought that it was a very sobering real assessment.It is a shame how easy we lose sight of how much we actually spend verses how much we get back from that spending.
Ben,
I really don’t care where the Thunder play but they would be fools to not have their games downtown.
Someone representing the organization, said they have no interest so far in the Park City Gym. Hartman hasn’t said ice was definitely going to be installed.
WWE wrestling does get 8,000 and probably more at events. The problem as has been Coliseum here is ugly and isn’t the best place for that.
What motorsports downtown? SMG has to be considering the Coliseum for that.
Wink did announce interest in an arena football team, but the County can’t allow two teams representing the area. I hate that sport but its a mess right now.
This is problem about “plans” that make front page of the Eagle. Go back to Dave Bayouth’s arena idea to be placed over the river.
I don’t believe the Park City Gym is any threat for events to happen downtown.
Park City should get an event center but its weird, why not destroy the Coliseum eventually and Hartman put his gym right there. Park City can pay to tear down the Coliseum, the County would give them that land.
Hey Eagle?
I KNOW you are tireless shills for this White elephant.
SO it HAS to me a BIG mistake!!!
YOU put the wrong picture of the arena on the FRONT PAGE above the fold!!!!
Heh heh Check it out folks! Their were three designs to choose from for the arena remember? Remember option C? The one everyone hated?
THAT’s the picture on todays front page!!
OOOPS!
I don’t think you guys NEED the arena at all. I went to Century 2 last week for the Home Show. I travel to Wichita for other shows and conventions. Between Century 2 and the Coliseum - there is plenty of room for everyone.
The folks behind this arena sold the public a bill of goods saying that it would attract more folks to Wichita.
ROFLMAO - that’s ludicrous.
EVENTS may attract folks - but not a big ugly building. Then one addlepated group wanted to build it over the river. They were shot down, thank God, because someone realized that when you start dealing with pylons and over-the-water construction - it can DOUBLE the cost of labor - and add to the material bill, too.
Forget the arena. The public is getting jacked around on the price of structural maintenance on the existing buildings.
The arena can only work with more full and half house concerts- at least 20 a year. If they can’t do that, don’t build it.
Things in Wichita have a way of happening without visible leadership. Now you can’t find a single politician or opinion maker who will take credit for the $28,000,000.33 “Keeper of the Plains” project. This involves raising the existing Keeper statue some 40 feet, setting it on fake paper mache “limestone boulders”, building a “ring of fire” around the base and framing the whole contraption in San Francisco style pylons for who knows what reason. This was the “vision” of a consultant named Al Nucifera from Alabama?? even though the idea was yelled down by Wichitans at a public meeting back about 1988.
Now spending $250,000,000.67 on a particularly obnoxious downtown arena seems to have even less supporters than the Keeper of the Plains project.
Wichita has a multitude of real needs that is too lengthy to put here, but no money is available to solve these problems.
But when our politicians such as DAVID UNRUH, TOM WINTERS AND TIM NORTON can find something worthless to support … just get out of their way and watch the dust fly.
Don’t expect any leadership from this trio.
writerdog
I hope your wife is healing well.
Oh don’t pick too much on the Keeper of the Plains project. I think that unlike the arena that the Keeper elevation is a GOOD thing.
It will bring Expoloration Place and the Indian Museum together and both accessible by the bike trails. BOTH EP and the Indian Center need more outdoor attratctions to exploit this and encourage folks to enter each facility.
GSheridan-
We need to replace Century II. It structurally lacks amenities that many newer facilities can provide for trade shows, exhibits, and conventions. It’s a major p.i.t.a. to load a major theatre show in and out of… for example, to load out Mamma Mia in the allotted time, an additional 16 stage hands are needed to deal with the “push” to the 8 semi-trailers, on top of the 30 or so actually involved with the disassembly and packing of the show. The lack of proper loading dock facilites for Concert Hall costs the promoter an additional $1200 in labor for every production they bring in.
Every elevator and lift in Century II is hydraulic, and other than the passenger elevators, were all custom built. Parts sourcing has become an issue for the freight elevators and orchestra pit lifts in Concert and Convention Halls.
The acoustic isolation between the auditoria is inferior by today’s standards. The have been issues between presenters over this.
Build a new Fine Arts Center for Music Theatre of Wichita, Wichita Symphony Orchestra, Wichita Grand Opera, Music Theatre for Young People, Stage One…. and implode the *interior* of Century II. You’ll have almost 16 acres of unobstucted, column-free exhibit space. And better yet, there would be a clean page to start with. Some things can be done much better this time.
About that Coliseum… it has known issues.. the ADA compliance, the non-regulation size ice sheet, the low structural steel for rigging. Dressing rooms for non-athletic events are.. very athletic. Minimal space for dead storage of empty road cases, insufficient shore power for artist’s motorcoachs. And really, the interior access around the Britt Brown Arena sucks. It’s big, old, and ugly. Put a replacement on the wish list… but dammit, don’t build it downtown and call it “revitalization.”
I agree that the public was sold a bill of goods. Frankly I think the public was misled, but the required votes were there for the legislature to give the county it’s penny tax. The tax juggernaut is in motion and cannot be stopped, I guess.
I do, however, take exception to your final comment about being “jacked around on the price of structural maintenance on the existing buildings. I see much ‘deferred maintenance’ at both Century II and Kansas Coliseum. Management has had to do more, with less general fund money, for a long time. Both City and County management have pushed public facilities to “show a profit.” That means that when big, expensive things fail, smaller things simply don’t get fixed or taken care of.
This has also resulted in less staffing of both the Coliseum and Century II. Operations suffer as a result.
So, in a nutshell, we’re getting a downtown arena we don’t want because Professor Hill told us we needed one. Hmmmmm. We got trouble, right here in River City… We have a tax that by law must be collected and spent ONLY on a downtown arena. So guess what? Mazeltov! For you, an arena!!!
Oh, and you’re right about one other thing… Promoters and presenters will put on shows and events they think the public will pay for. The buildings those take place in are secondary, especially if they are the only suitable venues in a market.
If Wichitans want greater choices of events, concerts, and the like, they need to attend NOW. Promoters that lose money NOW can’t bring in other things later….
From the trenches of public events,
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
People like Hartman and other capitalist are a valuable assest to our community. I think it’s great that he wants to build a 5K arena.
If we do renovate the Colisuem and turn it into a dirt floor event arena, with the downtown area, Hartman’s arena and Century II; You are talking about a HUGE boost to the ammenities to Wichita and will be a termendous tool for attracting businesses.
We will surpass OKC, Tulsa, and all other of our competative mid-size cities in our area with the ammenities that we will have.
Hartman’s arena, which is sports orientated, will put a damper on Salina and Topeka as a place to attract high school sporting events. It’s a big win for us.
I’m excited about the positive direction and growth Wichita is undertaking. Thanks to in part of visoneers, business leaders, capitalist and the optimistic citizens of our Metro area.
Good things are coming! :)
Joe! Yes, we will have lots of huge venues. But - what will fill them and make them financially viable? Hartman’s will be supported (presumably) by football and hockey. But, with its aggregate attendence cut by half, what will sustain the downtown arena?
A quarter billion dollars. Still. And still a waste for a downtown boondoggle.
Imagine - what could Sedgwick County do with a quarter billion dollars if it wasn’t tied to this monstrosity?
But it is. The lumbering white elephant has been put into motion, it’s probably impossible to stop (too many, including the Eagle, are wedded to promoting it) and will squash all in its path.
Just remember, this elephant will have to be fed. Don’t count on this “special” tax ever going away.
“this elephant will have to be fed”
And it’s gonna be hungry!
The claim by current holdover Sedgwick County Commissioners, Dave Unruh, Tim Norton and Tom Winters that construction of the downtown white elephant 250,000,000.19 arena must go on because it was approved by about 1/2 of the 165,000 voters is ludicrous for a number of reasons.
Have these commissioners never taken a class in political science? Have they never heard the phrase, “tyranny of the majority,” so well explained by Alexis DeToqueville some years ago in his classic observations of American politics?
Or even more practical. I now estimate that 95% of those 165,000 voters have learned the facts and if given a choice would yell loud and clear, WE DON’T WANT THAT ALBATROSS ARENA AND WE DEFINITELY DON’T WANT TO PAY FOR IT.
If this white elephant arena is built, it will destroy any trust the public might have in our public officials or any call for voting more money for public improvements.
COUNTY COMMISSIONERS DAVE UNRUH, TOM WINTERS AND TIM NORTON WILL JOIN GEORGE BUSH AS POLITICIANS WHO TALK THE TALK OF CONSERVATIVE SPENDING BUT WALK A VASTLY DIFFERENT WALK.
If any public political leadership had emerged on the proposed white elephant downtown ice hockey (no ice hockey might be played there) — Sedgwick County taxpayers might not be confronted with this horrible situation. Its now obvious that most taxpayers don’t want this public financed $250,000,000.19 albatross.
As soon as it was obvious that virtually 50% (now grown to 95% opposed) of our taxpayers DIDN’T want the proposed downtown arena … a strong political leader should have stepped up to determine the myriad problems with the ill-fated proposal. A blue-ribbon citizens committee should have been established to publicly talk out the situation.
But Wichita seems NOT TO HAVE ANY PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGED POLITICAL LEADERSHIP. Why not? Where is it?
In default, a small group of good old boys” and out of town “cap guns” were able to maneuver this separation of a 1/4 billion dollars of sales tax money from the taxpayers with a minimal of opposition. County government supported the issue with a $300,000 contribution to pro-arena supporters and no $ to opponents. Fair … certainly not.
NOW THIS DOG NEEDS TO BE STOPPED IMMEDIATELY AND RE-VOTED BEFORE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN TAXES ARE SENT DOWN THE DRAIN.
Sorry, its tough living in a city you want to prosper logically but the most powerful politician is the local newspaper’s cartoonist!
LTB - a question. You have mentioned that C-II is a difficult place for set-up/tear-down and referred to Mama Mia. In today’s Opinion Line another comment:
” The problem with Broadway musicals is that when they come to Wichita, they’re only half the size they are in New York. Our stages are so small. So you pay for a full musical and only get half the people who travel with it.”
My question to you: Will the Arena be a venus in which Music Theater, Grand Opera, Broadway shows, etc etc etc can operate?
SMG’s projections include:
” Half-house concerts 6 8,000Theater concerts 6 4,000 ”
Does this work? And, if so, could all of these find a home in the Arena and open up C-II as you suggest above. Casino there?
Ben-
Good questions.
The amount of theatrical “spectical” than can tour is determined by several factors… Budget: the total number of tickets a producer expects to sell over the run(s) of a touring company and how much can be spent building sets, wardrobe, and props and a way to move it all around, plus trucking, drivers, per diem allowances… and LOCAL Theatre: how big is the stage, how much wing space, upstage crossover, number and location of fly lines, electrical services, etc. Mamma Mia! fits on the Concert Hall stage with only 2″ of clearance upstage. The stages of Century II are trapzoidal and asymetrical which makes for an interesting time fitting shows that were designed for traditional rectangular stages. Factor in that a tour will play some theaters even smaller than Concert Hall, and a production needs to be able to accomodate in order to play. There are several theatrical shows touring that can’t play any stages smaller than ours. Disney’s Beauty and Beast was an engineering feat in the use of every 3D space for running storage during the show. 12 53′ semi’s worth of gear went into Concert Hall, but I digress.
Most broadway shows would not be able to play any venue without a traditional fly system, so that means the arena is out for that.
Theatre Concerts are staged with a set, perhaps some moving pieces and props, and wardrobe. The scripts have been written to present the book and music in a ‘concert’ setting.. basically theatre without the physical magic. With the right drapery, seating, and other ammenties, these would be possible to do in a ’shrink-to-fit’ arena.
Many arenas built 6-10 years ago are spending lots of money to create more intimate spaces within their cavernous walls.
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
LTB: I question if an arena built primarily for non-existent ice hockey and basketball can offer acoustics necessary for a major concert. If providing concerts is the primary goal, then a building should be designed for that, not for a sports arena.
As someone mentioned, the current show, “Mama Mia,” had about eight 18-wheelers parked in Lawrence-Dumont Stadium parking lot last night. What if weekend baseball game was being played there or anything else that uses the L-D parking lots?
Obviously the entire downtown arena debacle is being handled by a group of amateurs whose only desire is to profit quickly from the project. I guarantee you they will eventually scat out of town with only a loud “GOTCHA” as they leave with the Wichita city limits in their rear view mirror.
Jwink-
Hoping for such acoustic accomodation is wonderful, and Quixotic. As in “aint gonna happen.” Arenas and stadia are built to project crowd noise to the gladiators and those on the other side. This designer’s propensity cannot be overcome. In fairness, in many markets athletic exhibition makes more income for facility rental than concerts. I doubt that will be the case in Wichita for at least another 10-15 years, until our Metropolitan Statistical Area population gets high enough to support a major sports franchise.
Parking downtown? When the Waterwalk lots/garages fill up, the Broadview garage, and the bank garages and lots fill, only then will the City address parking. There is a fair amount of parking downtown “near” Century II, but much of it is closed to the public or closed on nights and weekends. Private enterprise might figure out how to make money on this… or not.
It will get worse before it gets better. That’s my prediction and doubt I’m disappointed.
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
I had occasion to park in the multi-level, five story or so, concrete parking garage at St. Francis/Via Christi hospital this week. I arrived late morning when few cars were moving, so I had no problems parking there.
BUT IMAGINE the downtown arena crowd hurriedly exiting an event and going to a similar multi-level parking lot. Presumably some of these departing drivers might have a few beers under their belts.
Further imagine 400 of these partially inebriated automobile drivers exiting simultaneously on a cold winter night with some icey water on the sloped driveway ramp.
Can you see 400 cars piled up at the bottom of the ramp … even before leaving the parking lot?
Can you recall the good old days at the wide open 4,000(+) car parking lot next to the wonderful warm Kansas Coliseum immediately adjacent to I-135. Of course!!!
Apparently the architectural rendering of the proposed downtown white elephant arena that appeared in the Wichita EAGLE earlier this week was actually of one of the discarded choices. Even so, differences are minimal. The correct one has a large flashlight pointing dramatically upward from the building’s roof line.
In all cases, the overall design appears to be a super-sized McDonald’s Restaurant needing super-sized “golden arches” to complete the comparison.
Super-sized hamburgers anyone?
Ben Huie: Several entries above in this thread, you rightly questioned the unlikely chance that Thunder Hockey and Indoor Football would play in the downtown arena. In the case of the Thunder, if they did average 6,000 attendance for one season, you can bet they would have their own ice hockey arena up north by the second season. Then they would profit from their own efforts, not the county arena boys.
I frankly don’t know where their estimate of wrestling attendance at 6,000 per event comes from but it seems unlikely — certainly not something to spend $250,000,000.13 of the taxpayers hard earned money for!
Last summer I was told by horse people in the Kansas Coliseum pavilions that they would never agree to move their shows to the downtown arena. Has this changed?
And, of course, moving most concerts and high school graduations to the arena only robs our own Century II/Exposition Center of income producing events. In effect, robbing the city’s right pocket to put in the county’s left pocket … a kick in the behind for taxpayers.
Perhaps “motor sports” will go to the arena. But it seems motor sports should be an outside event in a stadium type building. MRage, how about your outside stadium ideas?
This leaves zero, zilch, none, as valid prospects for the arena. So county commissioners, why is it being built? Use common sense — lets stop this madness now.