Slate’s William Saletan argues that Sen. Hillary Clinton is failing her first big test: explaining her vote to authorize the Iraq war. By refusing to apologize, Saletan notes, she’s showing an arrogant tone deafness to public mood that has already damaged, perhaps fatally, her campaign.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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113 Comments
Actually, refusing to apologize may be the very thing that nets her the Democratic nomination.
I’m no Hillary fan, but Saletan prides wimpy, whichever-way-the-wind-blows persona’s, and even the usual lackluster Dem mentality will likely view that as weakness.
Dont you just love how hard core right wing gopers are always trying to pick the Democratic nominee?
And… given the constant attacks on Obama and Hillary, does anyone else catch the whiff of flop sweat and fear in the morning?
heheheheheheehehehehehehheehhehehe
Oh yea, there is one hard and fast rule in running successful campaigns.
If you are explaining, you are losing.
If she is constantly explaining her votes to support dick and george’s excellent adventure, she is losing.
Just keep spinnin’ that vote Hil, and reminding us that your family coined the term “what is the meaning of is”.
How did THAT ’splaining work out?
Hillary can’t get the Democrat nomination without the Kool-aid drinkers on the Left. She can’t win the Presidency if she has the smell of the Vietnam era hippy Left. She’s gonna have to find a good dance instructor.
Sweat? Fear?
Of what? So far, the Dems are sending non-electibles up the chute.
Obama Winfrey doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in Hell, as he steps on his dick every time he addresses a crowd, and Edwards is running scared like a school boy from the big, bad, bully – the fanatical left.
Why anyone would fear the lunacy of Michael Moore, a verified liar -is beyond me.
We’re not scared. We’re just discussing the titty-baby tactics of the left.
It’s amusing.
Nothing more.
Yes, we see how unafraid of Obama you are. And Hillary is no big deal. You are right. Nothing to see here, move along. heheheheheheh
Two words. PRESIDENT HILLARY! hehehehehehehehehheheheheehhehehehe
Oh man, the next year and a half are gonna be fun….
It’s too early for such humor. I’ve not even read the funnies yet. Heckler is calling ANYONE a koolade drinker? Heckler you are the epitome of koolade drinker. And here again I find far right wing goons trying to determine the Dem nominee? Um….WHo asked you? Oh and on “viability”? Throw down YOUR hand! Mc Cain? the nut? Rudy the adulterer? BROWNBACK? Heh heh Oh truly we must pick the Dem nominee carefelly. She or he WILL be the next President.
GSheridan,
Your analysis as to which Democrats are and are not ‘electable’ is, shall we say, hardly unjaundiced. So, Madame Concern Troll, thanks, but no thanks, for the advice.
Oh, and nice job running away the other day after I called you out as a liar for misrepresenting Bill Clinton’s intentions regarding Iraq. I’d been waiting for a chance to knock you down. So thanks for making it easy to do so.
“Why anyone would fear the lunacy of Michael Moore, a verified liar -is beyond me.”
What lies has MM told links please
“”A day after Barack Obama goes out and eschews the politics of slash-and-burn, his campaign embraces the politics of trash,” said Phil Singer, Clinton’s deputy communications director, referring to a speech Obama made Tuesday in Las Vegas.”
Yes, indeed, it will be a fun year and a half.
Indeed it will, watching flip-flopper John McCain explain how he’s now against Roe v. Wade after being for it.
this is what a lie looks like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8JDRiwoiZw
My “usual lackluster Dem mentality,” advises me to sit back and wait while all the nastiness is thrown about, and save my energy for the celebration to come. As an “old Vietnam era hippy” I would much rather make love instead of war.
Hillary won’t even get the nomination. Oprah campaigning for Obama = President Obama.You can see in Hillary’s face how pissed off and downright evil she is. She has legitimate contenders for the Democratic nomination and she is PISSED. I truly feel for her staff right now.She thought this nomination would be a cake walk. After the Bush years the American people (or at least Democrats) would be falling all overthemselves to vote another Clinton in office.Ain’t happening even within her own party.
GOP shills better get in the Hillary camp.She will maintain the status qou.
JR
PLEASE PLEASE give us Clinton.
JR
PLEASE PLEASE give us Clinton.
Hillary has nothing to apologize for, most of America was snowed and skittish after 9/11. Even with all the evidence pointing to a questionable war, I was convinced when Colin Powell spoke before the UN that this war was going to be the right thing to do…
But it also came with a very stern warning…YOU HAD BETTER BE RIGHT.
And now we know exactly how far the Bush administration went to lie.
No Hillary isn’t the one who owes the apology. There is only one administration to blame for this mess, and it aint hers.
**My “usual lackluster Dem mentality,” advises me to sit back and wait while all the nastiness is thrown about, and save my energy for the celebration to come. As an “old Vietnam era hippy” I would much rather make love instead of war.**
Excellent!!
I’m with you, Linda. Let’s sit back and watch the game. The GOP and all it’s mindless followers have been shaking in their boots over Hillary for years. Now that she’s officially in the running, they’re all wetting themselves over it. Everyone seems to think she’ll be the one to get the nomination. I’m not ready to agree with that yet. The game has only begun, and we get to watch it play out.
KFG is right. “the whiff of flop sweat and fear” is what will kill the GOP and is sooooo much fun to watch.
Yes, and I’ve heard there are many people in my age group, many of us old Vietnam era hippies, many lackluster old people of Dem mentality. Our numbers are often used when the need is to get everyone worked up and scared about how we’re going to stress this system or that. Life is good!
I agree RD and Linda. The thing is I believe that the dems could run a dog in ‘08 and win. If Libby is convicted, I think Cheney will be next. Fitzgerald’s case was as much against Cheney as it was against Libby. There will be a great deal of carnage the remaining two years of this administration regardless.
I don’t want to see the Dems run another Jimmy Carter, who only had to smile and say “I won’t lie to ya.” Carter was a good man, president during a difficult economic time, but he and his team simply were not up for the job. Thus we need to pick carefully, because we are going to have to live with the consequences.
I am against Hillary, for the simple fact we have had enough Clintons and Bushes.
Amen, Steve
Steven,
I agree about the family dynasties. We’ve had enough.
Carter IS a good man, but I never felt he was among our best presidents. Then again, he certainly isn’t among our worst. ;)
If Hillary gets the nomination, the George McGovern massacre won’t look so bad.
“as he steps on his dick”
Sounds like GS wishes she could get some of that. In fact, from her words I’d say she really needs a big dose of it!
RD, agreed. Carter has been one of the better former presidents we’ve ever had.
McGovern was such a big threat to Nixon that he had to pull that little burgalry, which was the beginning of the end for RMN.
Tippy wrote:”Why anyone would fear the lunacy of Michael Moore, a verified liar -is beyond me.”
Tippy=G SheridanG Sheridan=a verified liar.
Tracy wrote:”Why anyone would fear the lunacy of GSheridan(Tippy), a verified liar -is beyond me.”
Since Michael Moore is a “liar” I have a question: Who was that horrible actor he had portray Bush in Farhenheit 911?
Tracy – you went into full meltdown without me. That’s not fair. I wanted to be here for the whole thing.
morg – to answer your question, MM explicitly lied when he said GWB made the decision to fly bin Laden’s family out in the days that followed 9-11. Richard Clarke made the call and he admitted the decision stopped with him.
It’s okay Tippy.This is all just a dream.None of this exists.You’re talking to nothingness.
It is warm here in nowhere.
Richard Clarke’s testimony to the 9/11 commission regarding the flying out the Saudi’s:The Saudi embassy, therefore, asked for these people to be evacuated; the same sort of thing that we do all the time in similar crises, evacuating Americans.
The request came to me and I refused to approve it. I suggested that it be routed to the FBI and that the FBI look at the names of the individuals who were going to be on the passenger manifest and that they approve it or not. I spoke with the at that time the number-two person in the FBI, Dale Watson, and asked him to deal with this issue. The FBI then approved — after some period of time, and I can’t tell you how long — approved the flight.
Now, what degree of review the FBI did of those names, I cannot tell you. How many people there are on the plane, I cannot tell you. But I have asked since, were there any individuals on that flight that in retrospect the FBI wishes they could have interviewed in this country, and the answer I’ve been given is no, that there was no one who left on that flight who the FBI now wants to interview.http://www.9-11commission.gov/archive/hearing8/9-11Commission_Hearing_2004-03-24.htm#clarke
Try again, GS.
Tippy’s verifiable lie for the day:”You collect a disability check for a trumped-up injury.”
Great imagination.
Tracy – say what?
I’m a business owner. You collect a disability check for a trumped-up injury.
Or are you know considering ‘envelope stuffing’ as a career?
lol
Posted by: GSheridan | February 22, 2007 at 07:59 AM
know – ‘now’
Posted by: GSheridan | February 22, 2007 at 08:00 AM
You’re a business owner?Wow, I’m in AWE.So are Dr. Tiller and Larry Flint!
LolHA!
RD – that wasn’t really Clarke testifying. Michael Morre got another actor to do it. Just like he got that horrible actor to portary Bush in F 911.
Thanks, RD – you just verified my point. MM said GWB made the call – by Clarke’s own admission he, himself, did, after consulting with the FBI.
Here’s more:[quote]Mr Clarke said he checked with FBI officials, who gave the go ahead. “So I said, ‘Fine, let it happen’.”
He first asked the bureau to check that no one “inappropriate” was leaving.
“I have no idea if they did a good job. I’m not in any position to second guess the FBI,” he said.[end quote]
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12758358,00.html
RD, Tippy is a verifiable liar.Tippy needs to not lie.
Tracy, the truth is so, well, such a democrat thing. And ya know tippy is a real goper quoting gary bauer and all….
Farmie – Clarke claimed responsibility – that makes MM the liar.
I’m sorry your idol has failed you.
GS – on what basis do you make the claim that TRACY “collect(s) a disability check for a trumped-up injury”?
As for who approved the flights – is not the FBI an agent for the President?
And such a pleasant and honest goper.
Slanderous statement IT made.Faking injury for money is a serious thing.
No apology or retraction.It just lies (verifiably) and then moves on when confronted with the TRUTH.
FBI is Justice Dept no? That makes it a cabinet agency under the direction of the executive branch.
I wasnt posting about MM. Never have. I was speaking of the lies about Tracy.
I guess if you are going to knowingly lie, ya might as well lie big and lie bold. Nevermind that regular bloggers here know the truth about each other.
Authenticity gets big points. Lying shills? Eh… not so much.
“It just lies (verifiably) and then moves on when confronted with the TRUTH.”
Makes Tippy a tippycal wingnut, yes?
hehehehehehehehehehhe
Tippy? I had a dog named Tippy once when I was a kid. She was a Beagle that howled and dug holes under the fence. We had to give her away.
I wonder if this is the same Tippy.
GSheridan
You are making quite a desperate reach to make Michael Moore a liar.
SURELY you have something better?
Michael Moore IMPLIED that bush was responsible for the quick rescue and escape of members of the bin Laden family.
Every plane in the United States was grounded for several days. The getaway plane was certainly KNOWN to bush. And he IS the selected Chief Executive.
Remember that bit about where a buck stops? (Hint, I don’t mean your energy portfolio.)
SO there is no lie there.
Ben, no basis for Tippy.When you don’t even believe your own existence is real then there are no evil things.Isn’t that right Tippy.It’s not slander because nothing is real.WAY delusional.So I suppose if Tippy gets it’s ass sued off and loses everything that’s fine too.None of the crap was real anyway.When you live in a fantasy land without real consequences you can mistreat anybody ya’ please, huh?
If I were to slander Tippy, would it be upset?It’s not real, it can’t.
hee hee hee hee Tracy.
And when tippy isnt lying, tippy is usually wrong.
Not that tippy will EVER admit to either one……
Farmie – neither you, nor Tracy-LEW would know the truth if it rared up and bit you on your plump asses.
TRACY – I am interested in hearing her justification for saying that.
By the way – just who was that horrible actor Moore used to portray Bush?
;^)
GS – disability?
Tracy-LEW, wrong again. MM said GWB was responsible. That was a lie.
Clarke made the call and admitted it went no higher than him. He didn’t consult GWB.
Sorry – MM is a liar.
No, Ben, I’m not disabled. Thanks for asking.
GS,
F9/11 came out in early 2004. The 9/11 Commission report was released in August of the same year. Since F9/11 was not live, one would have to assume it was made prior to the hearings. Moore’s “lie” as you call it wasn’t so far fetched. Most people assumed that the president made the decision on the flights, and for all we know, he could have told the FBI to fly the Saudis out of the U.S. That would seem more correct, since the Bush family is tight with the Saudi Royals. Not a big leap in thinking that Bush had some say in it.
Tippy denying she’s wrong? Say it isnt so, even if I called it.
“And when tippy isnt lying, tippy is usually wrong.
Not that tippy will EVER admit to either one……
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | February 22, 2007 at 04:05 PM
GS – you KNOW I was asking about your malicious claim against TRACY. Anything to back it up?
As for GWB “responsible”: under agency law he is responsible for actions of his agents.
RD – the fact is – MM was wrong. That begs the question – what ELSE was he wrong about?
He obviously did not do his homework before he put out his hateful film.
It’s still a lie, no matter how you spin it.
Sorry.
Tippy the Dog – the fact is – Bush was wrong. That begs the question – what ELSE was he wrong about?
He obviously did not do his homework before he put out his hateful war.
It’s still a lie, no matter how you spin it.
Sorry.
GS – do you deny agency law?
And about TRACY’s disability checks?
Do you claim that the actor who portrayed Bush was also lying?
hee hee hee hee hee Clark!
We are ALL waiting on that answer to you Ben.
Maybe RM is correct and Tippy DOES make it up as she goes along.
Ben – what do you mean by ‘agency law’?
On the Tracy thing – I have it on good authority that is the case.
Back to the subject.
“By refusing to apologize, Saletan notes, she’s showing an arrogant tone deafness to public mood that has already damaged, perhaps fatally, her campaign.”
I’m really sick of Democratic politicians who fall all over themselves apologizing every time a republican gets their panties bunched up. I think they should take a page out of Cheney’s playbook and respond, F*ck you!
GS — a veritable Golden Shower of lies and half truths — maybe time for a Depends?
Ya’ll have completely lost me on what the hell you are all arguing about!
blogs biggest liar?
We need SOME sort of title rank for GShillidan.
Please post your proof that TRACY is on medical disablity.
OR… does your “good authority” reside in some alternate reality that the rest of us cannot visit?
Ken – obviously you’re into the Golden Shower thing but leave me out of your voyeuristic fantasies.
If anyone around here is ready for Depends – it’s you.
Well, and maybe farmie. But definetly you.
JR – it resides in the same reality as the poster who earlier claimed I must be 50!
Who was that demented soul?
Damn, Tippy! And Golf Nut claims that I AM a druggie. Man, whatever stuff you’re smoking is giving you some hellacious hallucinations.
Agency – “In an agency relationship between two parties, one of the parties, called the agent, agrees to act for the other, called the principal. The principal has the right to control the agent’s conduct in matters entrusted to the agent. By using agents, a principal can conduct multiple business operations simultaneously in various locations. Thus, for example, contracts that bind the principal can be made at different places with different persons at the same time.” (West’s Legal Env of Business)
The key here is that PRINCIPAL is RESPONSIBLE for actions of AGENT. Since the FBI is an AGENT of GWB as PRINCIPAL GWB is RESPONSIBLE.
In Re: TRACY – so, if “I have it on good authority” that you are doing something I can trumpet it as TRUTH? No matter how bogus that “good authority”?
Wus – talk about hallucinations – aren’t you the guy that claims to be able to take on anyone who has a gun…with your BARE hands!
Do you leap tall buildings in a single bound, too.
GSheridan,
I’m STILL waiting for your credible link(s) re general population and CC.
Give us proof that J. Donahue’s summary is wrong.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/02/post_signs_proh.html#comment-61122576
Cosmos – you’ll have to read my previous links. The stats are very clear.
If you can disprove them – go for it. But be warned, an ‘opinion’ from a Harvard lib who doesn’t cite his numbers is not valid.
Tracy – why’d you run away?
I’ve been waiting for your response and you high tail it out of here.
Sheesh – guess I’ll go eat dinner.
GS is a little upset this afternoon. Since she couldn’t get any of Obama’s big dick that she was drooling about at 8:05 this morning she’s been trying to “do” the illegal aliens she hires. But they take one look at her and quit!
So, GS, rumors are good enough for you to libel a person with?
“Wus – talk about hallucinations – aren’t you the guy that claims to be able to take on anyone who has a gun…with your BARE hands!”
Jeez, Tippy, you are really full of shit, aren’t you. You know, they can give you medicine for that problem.
Of course, I never said that I could take on anyone with a gun with my bare hands. I said that I have the intelligence and street smarts to know when to fight back and the capability of defending myself. I also said that I could figure out when it was time for fork over fifty bucks and when defence was needed.
In fifty four years, I have never needed a gun to defend myself. If the facts are recognized, your best weapon is the matter between your ears, not a .45 in your hand.
But just out of curiousity, Tippy, does everyone that you come in contact with despise you as much as the folks on this blog, or do you pay people to be your friend?
“If the facts are recognized, your best weapon is the matter between your ears, not a .45 in your hand.”
I don’t think so WSC. A vacuum doesn’t make much of a weapon.
GSheridan,
Do you have reading problems? I clearly asked about “general population” and CC.
Your only link is re “police deaths”, and IT’S OLD, data = 1984-1996.
Since you seem UNABLE to post what I reasonably asked, I’ll assume that you’re WRONG.
“”Marc Rich getting pardoned? An oil-profiteer expatriate who left the country rather than pay taxes or face justice?” Geffen told Times’ columnist Maureen Dowd.”
Hillary has other problems besides her stance on the war (whatever that may be). She’s got that dead, stinking fish of a husband around her neck.
Hey, y’all remember me! I’ve been away for a bit, but I’ve such fond memories of this place even when being torn to shreds by the nice farm girl and all.
I hope you are all well and enjoying life and the newfound hope of our democratic majority (such that it is, still on a razor’s edge with that senator recovering from brain surgery and all)
GSheridan said that if a criminal is holding a gun “TO” someones head, a CC should shoot the criminal.
I hope the criminal’s trigger finger doesn’t twitch… Ooops, the victim gets a serious/fatal head wound.
“Hillary has other problems besides her stance on the war (whatever that may be). She’s got that dead, stinking fish of a husband around her neck.”
Jeez Fleet, if an election was held today between George and Bill, Clinton would win in a landslide that would make the Mondale – Reagan election look like a tight Jr. High School Class presidency race.
Yeah WSCLark you’re right but Obama would beat that clown of a President too.
I do have a sense that the country is looking for something other than politics as usual and soundbytes and all that crap.
In this one even though Bill and Hillary are tremdously talented, there is some healing that needs to go on here and I think Barack could bring it.
All I want is life to be as good as it was under Clinton. And I know Hillary will make that happen.
I think it’s amazing those who complain about the poor being lazy, during the Clinton administration there was less poverty than at any other time in recent history. Do the poor just decide to provide for themselves when a dem is in office? I don’t think so. Give them a way to earn their way and they will. They’ll contribute to society. Take it away and they’ll be left to ask for handouts because they have no other choice.
“Jeez Fleet, if an election was held today between George and Bill,”
That doesn’t even make sense. What exactly are the chances of that happening? I’ll tell you. Zero.What are the chances of Bill’s deeds coming back to bite Hillary on her butt? Huge.
Which deeds of Bill’s will bite Hillary, Fleet?
You mean the deed of eight years of peace, prosperity and growth?
Do you mean the deed of 22.5 million jobs created?
Do you mean the deed of no man sent into battle that did not come back?
Do you mean the deed of turing deficit spending into a surplus budget?
Or are you just another Republican talking about blow jobs?
If she wins the primary then, I’ll suck it up and give her some support, but it’d be nice to turn the page on all that crap and I really, really believe the country is itching for something new and progressive.
“Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
Thomas Paine
Clark you ain’t wrong about all that stuff, but remember, Clinton put the longest nail in the coffin with Free Trade agreements that are killing our middle class, sapping unions of their strength and moving us toward poverty wages as a nation.
The impact of what a president does is felt not just during his (and now possibly her) term but immediately afterward and depending on the strength of the legislation or in Bush’s case the size of the blunder decades after.
That’s kind of a duh statement but appropos in this case.
Dem – I’d like to see more of Richardson. With Nevada coming early he could make things interesting.
I don’t know as much about him as I will, but being from Illinois and well into Obama’s second book, I’m kinda stoked for him.
I just have this sense that this is his time, that he captures the zeitgeist (spelling could look it up but too lazy) or what this country is aching for. It’ll be bigger than even economic success with no soul, I could see it being inspirational like American politics hasn’t been in decades (since Kennedy).
No, ws, I’m talking about the “gates”.Filegate, chinagate, lincoln bedroom gate, how did that file show up after all these years gate, cattle future gate, pardon mark rich gate, raise taxes gate. Not the bj’s. She has other problems. Remember, when we got him, we got her. They said so.Too much baggage.
Well, Fleet, which “gate” proved to be an issue?
The only issue that Clinton had was receiving a blow job from a 22 year old consenting adult intern.
The rest is just Limbaughesque nonsense – it means nothing – no harm no foul.
“Clinton put the longest nail in the coffin with Free Trade”
Dem for Sure – NAFTA was negotiated under Bush I – it was only approved under Clinton.
Ben,Richardson is my man. I think he is the only real democrat in the race so far.
We have had waaaaaaaayyy too many Clinton and Bush reprises already; don’t need another one.
PMom: I heard that same quote about “just wanting things to be the same as they were under Clinton” from Monica Lewinsky. :)
BDP fleet,
“lincoln bedroom gate”
Amazing… five years after Drudge created that BS, BDP fleet is STILL spreading it.Right-wingers like fleet are either very gullible, or love to con people.
Which are you, fleet? Gullible?
‘The Lay-in-the-Lincoln-Bedroom lie helps instruct us in where spin comes from.’http://www.dailyhowler.com/h022502_1.shtml
So GS – anything more than you so-called “heard from a source” to substantiate your claim against TRACY? So, for you rumor is enough? GS?
GSheridan,
I have advocated ignoring you. I think that is the best way to deal with folks like you who seem to feel validated when others are arguing with you.
You, for the most part (because I haven’t wasted the time to investigate all of your claims), post bogus nonsense.
I think, however, it is complete crap to post made-up stuff about posters here, to wit, Tracy being on disability. If you are capable of feeling shame, you should be feeling that emotion now.
You owe Tracy an apology. I know you won’t offer one. Unless you are much crazier than I think you are, you know you owe him an apology, too.
I urge all fellow posters to put this pugnacious personality disorder on IGNORE. I urge this because she will eventually go away and you will feel better after you stop hitting your head on the wall.
Trying to communicate with this “person” is like banging your head on the wall. Take my word for it: save yourself the grief.
Nafta was approved under him yes and the legislation went quietly, and touted by him as one of his greatest accomplishments.
But it is the single worse piece of legislation that was passed under his purview (any other candidates?)
Truth is Clinton had some flashes of genius, was and is a masterful communicator, but was and I suspect is now just another slave to mamon. He and his wife represent some pretty well established partisan stuff that we’ll be getting if she’s elected.
It’s round 4 of the same old fight by known entities. I want a new sport, a new sense of what we could be and with all the branches of government moving towards the left (except judicial and we’ll be rueing that for a long time!) with Obama I see a responsible and clean and even inspirational move in that direction, something that’s no disengenuine
Interesting point Steven but her willingness to say outrageous things like that is fascinating. I wonder – is that actionable? rm? VT?
It makes me incredibly sad that Dems are turning on the best administration we had in ages. The republicons hate them for a reason. Don’t you understand that? They stood for all we stand for.
On another thread we’ve talked about Mexico’s problems and about how the U.S. could help them by creating jobs in Mexico.
Is anyone aware that we’ve been doing this for some time? Several U.S. corps have built factories in Mexico. Not that a plant here and there solves the problem.
NAFTA is all a part of that, all a part of globalization. Blame Clinton all you want for giving the final pound to the nail, but, as WSClark posted, NAFTA was Bush 41’s baby. Clinton just put the final wham on it.
Pmom,
I don’t think that I am turning on the Clintons. He was in office during a time of incredible job growth. If you weren’t working or were under-employed in the late 1990’s it was only because that was the way you wanted it.
NAFTA, in theory, was a good idea. And, yes Bush started it, but Clinton implemented it. The problem with NAFTA is that it has not worked out as promised. According to Greg Palast:”Real wages fell on _both_ sides of the border, or, more correctly, all three sides, as U.S., Canadian and especially Mexican production wages were hammered. In Mexico, laborer’s pay per hour dropped 40% in the first seven years after NAFTA’s passage. At the same time, the wage-wealth jaw opened wide in all three nations as productivity rose, lifting the value of owners’ equity by several trillion dollars.” (_Armed Madhouse_, 2006; p. 306).
Could it be possible that our illegal immigration problem has been worsened by NAFTA, when we promised everybody would win in the deal — clearly, very few have won.
The main reason Clinton looks as good as he does now is because of who followed him.
We can do better than Hillary. It will take a very skilled politician to clean up the mess Bush will leave (whether he finishs his term or not).
Can we stop calling Obama, clean, for heaven’s sake.
My fear with Obama is the same we should have had about Carter, viz., anybody, even GSheridan, would look like a better presidential candidate after Bush.
We have got some time, as Bonnie would say, “so let’s take it.”
“anybody, even GSheridan”
You have gone too far now, SD. Way too far.
That would be like choosing between hanging and the firing squad.
RD, everybody knows NAFTA was about getting the big dogs here into emerging markets, by killing our tarrifs as a means of clearing the barriers of entry into their markets so they could continue growing their share of world business and become what is now known as multi-national.
Notice, China isn’t doing anything of the sort. Their government protects its interests via their non-floating currency (and with tariffs squarely in place thank you very much, not that we’re in any position to take advantage of it anyway). The wages of the middle class here and the security of our country were sacrificed on the altar of Wall Street’s greed when it comes to their all consuming desire to own the world.
As for Mexico, any country that wants to know how you build stability and a middle class just needs to look to the model of the blueprint of what FDR did and take from that stellar example all that is applicable.
Like you said a few plants here and there aren’t going to solve Mexico’s problems and you gotta know that any plan that benefits the wealthy while stagnating and eroding opportunity for the poor and middle class has it’s root in one place: the greed of Wall Street. Clinton and company worship at the same altar as Bush & co. The examples of that are everywhere and Bill’s glib tongue might make you forget it for a minute, but it’s almost self-evident.
Barack has consistently in his career gone the route less traveled forgoing the easy money of lucrative law to be a man of principle fighting for the little guy and he hasn’t been in national politics long enough to be seduced by the power and money yet, so til further notice, he’s my man.
Steve Davis when I say clean in reference to Obama, I’m not talking about whether he speaks english well vs ebonics or whether he’s “black enough.”
I guess it’s easy enough to read what I said through the filter of the stories these last few weeks and months, but that stuff is not at all what I’m talking about.
What i said in my last post was:
“Barack has consistently in his career gone the route less traveled forgoing the easy money of lucrative law to be a man of principle fighting for the little guy and he hasn’t been in national politics long enough to be seduced by the power and money yet,…”
Read his website or book to see substantively what he’s talking about in terms of policy(to see if he’s another nice guy who would finish last), but I think he has the ability to capture the imagination of the people to get folk who’ve decried politics involved. You really DO believe that he’s for the average guy not a pretender like Bush who only talks like one and meets a few on occasion for photo-ops. He always talks about an engaged folk more than Clinton.
To the folk on this board, that’s a non-issue, but to a good deal of America, politics has gotten so ugly and petty that they simply don’t bother (+ they’re too busy out with 2 folk workin 80 hours a week trying to do what used to be done by one working 50).
It is sort of fun watching the righties go apoplectic over the Dem candidates. Quite frankly, I believe that there is a good group there – Obama, Vilsack, Clinton, Richardson …
Contrast that to the CONS – Brownback, flip-flop Mccain, …
GS rants about ‘lefties’ while she fantasizes about Obama but watch the right wingnuts in the GOP savage Giuliana and Romney, who would be their best chance in November. This is going to be fun …
Ben,It’s going to be fun, and ugly at times, too.
Regardless of party affiliation, I want to believe that we’re all after the same thing — even GMC70.
Good night, all…
Obama’s theme song should be “We’re not gonna take it”.
That’ll really get the far right in a tizzy. Ugly men wearing lots of makeup singing Obama’s anthem hehe.
“You have gone too far now, SD. Way too far.”
Appreciate you calling me on my hysterics, WS. I am not sure that I am wrong, unfortunately, for both of us.
GS – “JR – it resides in the same reality as the poster who earlier claimed I must be 50!”
I think he meant an IQ of 50!
Still phantasizing abour Obama’s dick?