It seems likely that Congress will pass and President Bush will sign a bill raising the federal minimum wage. But columnist George Will (who thinks there should be no minimum wage) argues that raising the wage won’t help the poor much. Among his stats:
*Most of the working poor earn more than the minimum wage.
*Only one in five workers earning the federal minimum lives in families with earnings below the poverty line.
* More than a quarter of people earning the federal minimum wage or less are between ages 16 and 19.
* Sixty percent of those earning the federal minimum or less work in restaurants and bars and earn tips — often untaxed, perhaps — in addition to wages.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Too many exemptions
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
112 Comments
A rise in the minimum wage will not help low income workers that much.
Interestingly, Bush was wanting a tax cut for small businesses to help pay for the increase in minimum wage. That isn’t needed, or a good idea.
In addition to teenagers, elderly, retired people make up many minimum wage earners.
Good call SD. I posted a few links the other day stating what you just have. Raising the minimum wage is a feel good move for the politicians (either side). Nothing more.
George Will is right.
The minimum wage should be the same everywhere: $0. Why should the government mingle in the market? Labor is a commodity. Demand for any commodity is elastic – meaning: as price goes up, demand goes down.
The federal government has more than its hands full delivering the mail and defending our borders. Why not let the market do well what Washington does poorly?
Hey Golfnut, I know you aren’t familiar with issues. Labor isn’t a commodity, it hasn’t been since the U.S. government said it wasn’t back with antitrust laws in 1914.
so throwing a few coins to the little people bad.
But a 200 plus million dollar severance package [home depot CEO]good, I get it now.
Doug,If you’ve ever taken an economics class, you surely know that a commodity is an economic “good” – meaning: something that can be exchanged for money or other goods.
How else would you define labor?
Labor is one of the three legs of capitalism:
LandLaborCapital
The trouble is that labor has been devalued and even degraded by those like golfntz who have never had to work a day in their life.
from the economist.comCommodityA comparatively homogeneous product that can typically be bought in bulk. It usually refers to a raw material – oil, cotton, cocoa, silver – but can also describe a manufactured product used to make other things, for example, microchips used in personal computers. Commodities are often traded on commodity exchanges. On AVERAGE, the PRICE of natural commodities has fallen steadily in REAL TERMS in defiance of some predictions that growing CONSUMPTION of non-renewables such as copper would force prices up. At times the oil price has risen sharply in real terms, most notably during the 1970s, but this was due not to the exhaustion of limited supplies but to rationing by the OPEC CARTEL, or war, or fear of it, particularly in the oil-rich Middle East
name,What’re you smokin’?
Golfnut, do you store people in a warehouse like you do other commodities?
“The labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce.”
(US Code Title 15, Ch. 1 § 17)
Since you did so well in economics class you would have known that.
Doug,Naturally, you failed to answer the question. What would you call it?
Doug, the definition you cite for labor is for a particular statutory purpose, in this case, the Clayton Antitrust Act.
Golf, as I recall from one of my economics courses, labor is indeed a commodity for the purposes of the “dismal science”.
So, each of you is correct in the definition each cites; but each of you are discussing a different thing.
Why would we allow the goverment to force employers to pay people more than they are worth?Why not make the minimum wage $50 per hour and quit dinkin’ around?Lib World, Where they give hand outs, one way or the other.
Vaughn,Agreed. The Clayton Antitrust Act defined labor as such in an effort to keep businesses from “owning” labor. This did, in effect, weaken large corporations, break up trusts and give strength to labor unions.
I don’t care if we call labor a commodity, a “good,” a resource or anything else. Bottom line, labor is purchased at a price defined by supply and demand.
Fleet,Brilliant!
Imagine this scenario:Charles Koch (CEO of Koch Industries) wants his lawn mowed, and it’s WORTH a lot to him to get it done, so he offers to pay $50/hr.
Fred Jones (engineer) wants his lawn mowed, too, but it’s not worth quite so much to him: $2/hr.
The rest of us all want our lawns mowed, and we all fall somewhere in the middle of those two.
We all hire laborers to do the jobs. The price discretion (range of value) for this job is $2-50/hr. Assuming there is an endless supply of labor, we’ll all get our lawns mowed, and we’ll pay what it’s WORTH to us.
Now, imagine that there is a limit of labor. There are more lawn mowing jobs than there are lawn mowers. Which jobs won’t get filled? Clearly, the lower-priced lawns will go unmown. Let’s say for argument that the lowest price on the scale is $5/hr. Anything below that doesn’t get mown. We have full employment of lawn mowers, and if Fred Jones wants to avoid a scruffy lawn, he’s gonna have to raise his price. But he can’t afford $5/hr, so he mows it himself. Now, those that are getting their lawns mowed are those where the WORTH is equal to what it’s WORTH a laborer to mow it.
Now, the government comes in and says “whoa boys, $5/hr isn’t enough – we’re raising the price by law to $8/hr.”
How does that affect Fred? Not at all. How does it affect Mr. Koch? None. In fact, it only affects two groups of people: those that are paying $5-$7.99/hr (they’ll now have to mow their own lawns), and those that were making $5-$7.99/hr (they’re now unemployed).
If business does not consider labor a commodity, then why did businesses big and small start calling their personel department, “Human Resources” about twenty years ago?
What would happen if the government decided that the minimum fee for a haircut must be $20?
Women would say – “So? I already pay $40.” No effect.
Men? different story.
Net result: more men with long hair and more unemployed barbers.
The answer to the original question is NO, it will not help the poor.It is a pandering ploy. No more, no less.We give people 12 years of free education in goverment skools, why do we have to keep paying after some people don’t take the opportunity that is given?
Visit my blog for my take on the minimum wage issue…
http://www.cornbeltwayboys.com
Wrong poptart-He’s my toady. Get it right.We trade every other day. Like in Lib World.
What opportunity is that fleet?
The opportunity of 12 years of public skool education.
jeremie,outstanding blog
GolfNut-Did you look at the same site I did? Outstanding in the rain, maybe.
try again, Fleet.
http://www.cornbeltwayboys.com/
Much better. Thank you.I should give you an award or something. Next time, I want to at least be thanked second.
With a little effort, you could move ahead of Dad. But Mom will always be #1.
Effort is too hard. How ’bout you just give it to me. We are in Lib World after all.
Sixty percent of those earning the federal minimum or less work in restaurants and bars and earn tips — often untaxed, perhaps — in addition to wages.
This is a spurious statistic, and George Will and Mr. Brownlee should both know better.
Many restuarant workers as well as farm workers are exempt from the minimum wage. I presume they would remain so under the Democratic proposal.
Oh yeah, duuuuh. How stupid of me to forget. Nevermind that Mom and Dad worked hard for many years to EARN their places in life.
I’m surprised that Pee hasn’t demanded a spot just because “it’s not fair” that others have something she doesn’t have.
Dorking,Tipped employees aren’t exempt from the minimum wage, they just have a lower one. It’s a percentage of the of the federal minimum wage, and it would also go up proportionally.
name,What’re you smokin’?
Posted by: KSGolfnut | January 05, 2007 at 02:26 PM
What the hell does that mean?Are you just too stupid to know when you been disrespected?
name,it’s impossible for me to be disrespected by you.
Mom always liked you best cause I wouldn’t slip her the tounge.
Yeah? So? Where else was I gonna learn all that stuff?
I didn’t write the 4:03 post.
Morons abound in this place.
By the way, George Will’s stats are wrong. I read an article today (forgot to save it) that stated pretty much the opposite of Will’s. Is that a surprise to anyone?
Phillip, I suggest another source is found for those stats. (As if Phillip is reading this…)
RD,Please enlighten us. What’s your source of these “new” stats?
Golfnut, I’ve been hunting for it. I saw it as a news piece this a.m., probably on Yahoo! News, but it’s been replaced. I’ll keep hunting though.
For all,Yesterday (I think), I saw a news article about 2 Missouri congresspeople who want to pass a resolution for more widespread and easily obtainable information on birth control. Anybody else read that?
*Most of the working poor earn more than the minimum wage.
That is TRUE, but only because they make barely over minimum wage.
*Only one in five workers earning the federal minimum lives in families with earnings below the poverty line.
So one in five families can starve and that’s just dandy? Being above poverty line isn’t exactly a lot of money.
* More than a quarter of people earning the federal minimum wage or less are between ages 16 and 19.
That means that 75% are over 19 earning minimum wage.
* Sixty percent of those earning the federal minimum or less work in restaurants and bars and earn tips — often untaxed, perhaps — in addition to wages.Bull, all tips are to be reported and taxed.
“often untaxed” <– completely true
RD,The internet is there for everyone. You can’t get much more “easily obtainable” than that.
Its seems free market capitalism has a tough time without a permanent underclass.
Fortunately, there are those in our society who are not as ambitious – ergo: happy to be garbage men, janitors, etc.
Golfnut, here are the stats and links, part 1 (all wouldn’t go through in one post):
The federal minimum wage has now remained unchanged for almost 10 years, the longest stretch in its history.”History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938—1996,” United States Department of Laborhttp://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/chart.htm
Since Congress last voted to increase the minimum wage, the cost of living has gone up by 25%3 and Congress has increased their annual salary by $31,600 dollars.”Salaries of Members of Congress: A List of Payable Rates and Effective Dates, 1789-2006,” Congressional Research Service, April 18, 2006http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/97-1011.pdf
A full-time minimum wage worker brings in just $10,712 a year, less than half of the poverty level for a family of four.”Minimum wage: Debate on pay gains priority,” Atlanta Journal-Constitution, January 2, 2007http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2291&id=9660-3458080-5FnPglBbNDxO9wS.ZySvQg&t=6and”Poverty Thresholds 2004″ U.S. Census Bureau,http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh04.htmlThe proposed increase to $7.25 an hour would help approximately 13 million low-income people, most of whom are women.”Who’s Afraid of a Higher Minimum Wage?” Washington Post, December 4, 2006http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2292&id=9660-3458080-5FnPglBbNDxO9wS.ZySvQg&t=7
Part 2:
The $4,4009 annual raise is equal to about 15 months worth of groceries.Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, August 2006http://www.cbpp.org/7-28-06tax2.htmand”Consumer Expenditures in 2005,” Bureau of Labor Statistics, November 8, 2006http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cesan.nr0.htm
Real world studies have consistently found that cities and states with higher minimum wages often retain or even increase job levels.”Higher Minimum Wage No Longer Regarded in US as Sure-Fire Job Killer” Bloomberg, August 7, 2006http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2293&id=9660-3458080-5FnPglBbNDxO9wS.ZySvQg&t=8
86% of small business owners report raising the minimum wage would have no effect on them.The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and other corporate interests are mounting a vigorous lobbying effort to squash the minimum wage raise—despite the fact that the average CEO these groups represent earns more than 821 times the average minimum wage worker.”I’ll Raise You…,” Entrepreneur Magazine, October, 2006http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2294&id=9660-3458080-5FnPglBbNDxO9wS.ZySvQg&t=9
Sorry RD,I don’t read anything on MoveOn.org.
The rest of your post reflects the same basic stats presented by George Will.
‘This year, state Senator Joan Bray, (D-St. Louis) and state Representative Sara Lampe (D-Springfield) resolved to get the Missouri Legislature on record in support of policies that make it easier for women of all income levels to access contraception. That’s why Sen. Bray and Rep. Lampe filed the Prevention First Resolution on the first day of the 2007 Missouri Legislative Session.
“The Resolution (SCR1 and HCR4), introduced in both the Senate and the House, affirms the importance of contraception and its crucial role in helping women and families prevent unintended pregnancy and thereby reduce the need for abortion.”
And an opinion:
“Unfortunately, Governor Blunt and hundreds of anti-family planning politicians in Missouri have supported legislation that would make birth control and preventive health care harder to get.”
Anything else, Nut?
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=atp2MiOAZ3Xc&refer=us
Higher Minimum Wage No Longer Seen as Sure-Fire U.S. Job Killer
By Kim Chipman
Aug. 7 (Bloomberg) — Prominent economists of all ideological persuasions long believed that raising the U.S. minimum wage would retard job growth, creating unintended hardship for those at the bottom of the ladder.
Today, that consensus is eroding, and a vigorous debate has developed as some argue that boosting the wage would pull millions out of poverty.
A moderate increase in the minimum wage won’t raise unemployment among low-skilled workers, according to recent studies, many economists say. They are joined by some business executives who say they can live with that, especially if it’s coupled with tax relief.
“My thinking on this has changed dramatically,” says Alan Blinder, a former Federal Reserve vice chairman who teaches economics at Princeton University in Princeton, New Jersey. “The evidence appears to be against the simple-minded theory that a modest increase in the minimum wage causes substantial job loss.”
RD,What does all that birth control data have to do with this thread on the minimum wage?
David testicles, how would you know who reports tips, it’s not like you ever worked a tip job in your life. And even if you did, I’d expect you to steal. You’re projecting what you would do. The rest of us are honest people.
Pee,As I’ve stated on here many times, my family owns a restaurant. I KNOW what gets reported (and what doesn’t).
PS: I was a waiter for two years during my undergrad.
Golf, if you get to post nonsense, so can I.
Equal opportunity, and all that.
Do tell us the name of this eatery mr. nut.
Judging by you they serve a fine heaping plate of bs. I should like to go and tell them what I think of their son.
LOL I DID NOT WRITE THAT I SWEAR! But I do agree.
Parents own a restaurant, parents are CPA’s….who knows the truth with you.
My email is live. You can email me and tell me what you think of their son. =) I’ll forward it to them.
I said my family owns it – not my parents. They’re CPAs. Well, retired CPAs.
My daughters did a lot of work for tips. One of them commented that there were a lot of “bra stuffers” and only a portion of the tips would get reported.
Not that it matters to this thread, but always found that an amusing story. :)
In true liberal fashion, you’re ignoring the obvious points and aiming for personal attacks.
*shock*
JM, they still exist. Cash tips rarely get reported.
Probably his family has some little franchise or other. That explains why you are ashamed.
This thread is a really good example of the difference between the way the CONservatives and the progressives think.
The CONs use theory–the law of supply and demand, hypotheticals (”imagine that Koch wants his lawn mown”).
The PROs use observable facts. Not supposition based on theory, but what has actually happened in the past and what is happening now.
The first presupposes an almost religious faith in “free market” theory. The second looks at cause and effect in the real world.
It’s the same thing we see in the global warming debate. The CONs throw up all kinds of gorilla dust to avoid the obvious conclusion that all the scientists can see staring us in the face.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.”Upton Sinclair
There is CONservatism in a nutshell.
Take a CONservative like JM for instance.
Here’s a guy who seems reasonably articulate and intelligent, but he believes that the universe is only 10,000 years old because “that’s what the Bible says.”
If you have the ability to be that willfully stupid, there’s really no point in trying to reason with the man–he’s already proven himself beyond the reach of reason.
Or take Gene Ralston–”when you pay people to be poor, you get a lot of poor people.” Beautiful, Gene. That’s exactly what your faith-based “free market” theory says isn’t it.
Trouble is, that is not borne out by observation in the real world. Sweden, probably the biggest social welfare state on the planet, has virtually no poverty. Meanwhile, Haiti and Somalia, which have hardly a functioning government let alone a welfare state, have the highest rates of poverty in the world.
Try going from the observable facts to the conclusions for once. Rather than the other way around, starting with the conclusions and then making the facts support it.
That’s what Bush did in Iraq.
It all fits a pattern . . . the “faith based” mode of thinking versus the “reality based” community.
Doo,It’s not a franchise, and it’s not fast food.
Interestingly Western Europe doesn’t have a minimum wage. Instead they have strong labor unions, sort of like we had before Reagan eviscerated labor protection laws and encouraged big business to kill unionism.
And their standard of living remains high while ours continues to go down.
If you don’t believe it, look at the Euro to the Dollar over the last five years.
What a surprise. Not.
I think golfnuts’s family does not own a restaurant at all. I think that is a lie.
Perhaps their is older money and the frat boy troll does not want to admit it but prefers to at least pretend his family made anything of themselves recently…..
Goftnuts doesn’t know anything, he can’t tie a knot on his shoes but he can theorize the hell out of it.
Yup.
There are a number of reasons why people like me are where we are…
And people like you are where you are…
Yep, because you don’t bat an eye at stomping on other people to get to the top.
People are nothing but merely your stepping stones.
Nutz doesn’t recognize that there are other people in the world, except his family.
And sometimes, not even them.
Any cute lady bloggers wanna cyber? Email me.
Go away pee. Play with WS.
I’m working here.
Yeah, I imagine sex with you is like everything else, all about you. Get your rocks off then dismiss the gal like a prostitute, “here have a buck lady, go buy yourself a coke”
Step up ladies!
Damn it, P Mom! No more creepy mental images!
Nutz having sex – send the video to Iraq and the war will be over in a matter of days.
And Iraq would never recover.
lol Clark, he’d probably call that a fair living wage too. Personally I’d rather shovel cow manure for 25 cents.
I guess someone has to make up lies now. He posted a question for me to answer that the Earth is 10,000 years old. I did not answer him severals times on purpose.
Now, he uses that as something I said.
Read the thread on Global Warming (polar bears) and you will realize I don’t believe that or have never said anything close to it.
Sad liars,sad liars. tsk tsk
I don’t know if this issue has been addressed but another advantage of increasing the minimum wage is increased tax revenue. More payroll tax in increased putting more revenue in to reduce the budget deficit as well as more put into the social security fund. Of course any social security deficits can simply be erased by increasing the cap which wouldn’t even be necessary if the social security surplus wasn’t blown on tax cuts for the rich.
With stocks going down because of less consumer spending the minimum tax increase would increase that consumer spending ultimately putting the money back into the hands of the businesses which had to pay out the higher wages. Businesses suffer by wealth hoarding. However those who prefer a feudalistic system think any wages are a bad idea.
What I find funny is that the government is hooraying and patting themselves on the back over an increase in jobs in December. Like this doesn’t happen every December?
More stores have hired for the December Christmas rush, raising the employment numbers…temporarily.
I’ve seen/read 2 explanations of how employment/unemployment figures are reached. The first is the number of applicants for unemployment. The second is random telephone calls to people, asking if they are employed.
The first is easily skewed when people have come to the end of their unemployment compensation and are no longer applying because they can’t get any more.
The second makes no sense at all. What about unemployed people who don’t have a phone? What about people who would lie and say they’re working and aren’t? Or working and say they are?
And how are all the people who were being paid well, but have been laid off and are now working 2 jobs that have salaries that don’t even begin to replace the higher salary they lost? How are they counted?
And there’s the rub. It’s the UNDERemployment that is hurting us much more than the UNemployment.
From my brief experience with your writing, CapnAmerica, you exist in a delusional world.
Did you pay attention to nothing in high school?
What about the cause and offect of the war on poverty, the crowning achievement of the left-wing moonbats like you so proudly claim to be? How is that working out for you?
But wait! I just realized it is better for you if there are poor opressed people. How else would you keep them down and opressed?
And the crappy public schools you support! Again, a way to keep people dependent on you and your ilk. If they actually learned to think, they would realize what an intellectual fraud you are.
You folks obsessed with gonads?
anon,
It sounds more like you’re talking to the Republicans/Conservatives than to Tracy.
But there’s more…
“Did you pay attention to nothing in high school?”
Before bashing someone else, you might try looking in the mirror. Did you miss out on spelling class? It’s ‘oppressed,’ not ‘opressed.’ (Not a typo. You misspelled it wrong twice.) And I like the way you got around knowing the difference between ‘effect’ and ‘affect’ by mistakenly typing ‘offect.’ Here’s a hint: ‘Affect’ is a verb. ‘Effect’ is a noun.
What’s the quote again about the splinter in the eye and a log?
RD I agree, when I was unemployed, I neither got unemployment nor a phone call, so I know I was never counted.
Yes – PeeMom is obsessed with gonads.
Unemployment it a statistic. They don’t count every person.
correction:PeeMom is obsessed with MY gonads.
Heh, Anon has come out of a three month hibernation to ask me if I “learned nothing in high school.”
Yeah, Anon, I learned that “oppressed” is spelled with two p’s. Geez, what a maroon . . .
JM–
Ah ha! You are less stupid than I thought. Congratulations.
But let’s clear one thing up. When I claimed something as true when I could not know that it’s true (even though I thought it was true), you called that a “lie.”
I agree with you. It is a lie. To state something (as I did) as true when I didn’t know that it was true is a lie.
So when Bush said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, when Cheney said there can be NO DOUBT that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, we can call those statements LIES by the same criteria.
Good point, JM. I totally agree.
Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and all the rest of the Bush administration . . . Sad, sad LIARS.
Well said.
“Will raising minimum wage help the poor?”
Yep!Better than working two jobs.(Just Over Broke – J.O.B.)
I am for raising it but nobody works for minimum wage these days. Not even the teens around here- the fast food places are paying about $7 per hour to start. Even the Mexicans that hang around Home Depot for day labour jobs want $10 per hour. I don’t know of any job that pays $5.15 an hour
Kev, ask your waiter at Applebees how much his minimum wage is. It’s less than $5.15.
Doug,Ask your waiter as Applebees how much he makes an hour. It’s greater than $5.15.
Actually, it’s minimum wage according to this blog–
“I was glad when Applebee’s hired me (initially as a hostess, with opportunity to move up to server over time). With my unlimited open availability, I hoped they’d give me somewhere close to full-time hours. Or maybe at least half. No, instead they gave me short 1-3hr shifts–I’M NOT KIDDING WHEN I SAY THAT MY AVERAGE WORKDAY LASTED 2HRS. I’d work the meal rush, then be told that I was “cut” and could go home now–that’s great, but where’s home again?? Exactly.
Also the pay was horrible. I was supposed to be paid $4.50/hr+tips, tips being taken as a share of the servers’ tips. The GM told me their average hostess made approx. $10-12/hr after tips were added. But where were my tips?? I did a good job, even assisted servers with their side duties when I wasn’t busy, yet didn’t see any tips added in to my paycheck–instead, they just paid a straight $4.50/hr with just enough of a “manager’s compensation” to bring my wage to an exact $5.15/hr, which was the required federal minimum wage.”
http://www.aboutmyjob.com/main.php3?action=displayarticle&artid=2555
So for this individual, a rise in the minimum wage would definitely help her.
From reading the Applebee’s waitstaff description of experience there it reads as if she might have quit or was fired.
Any yeah, competition for the ‘good sections’ and wait your turn to get the ‘good sections’ is common in most restaurant.
I suppose this person expected to be paid 12.00 hour with tips right off the bat without first having to wait and get a few hundred tables under the experience belt.
Sounded like a young, inexperied person that needed some advice.
She could have been like my daughters when they started out. The got the slow table section, poor tippers but worked their way up.
Also, one of them when they weren’t getting the hours they needed, she worked at another restaurant that was willing to work with her other workplace schedule.
All together she had about a 50-60 hour work with the occasional $100 tip day. On average I think she said about $70 a day. That’s not a bad monthly wage for someone fresh out of high school.
Sometimes it takes a little iniative and actual hard work to get what you want, instead of complaining about what you haven’t got.
Oh and that was back in the 1980s.
hehe, JM.
Don’t you know ComradeAmerica hates it when his “facts” turn out to be ridiculous?
*shock*
Hey, JM, thanks for calling me a liar.
It was worth it to make you have to admit that Bush is also a liar by your own criteria.
Never called you anything, I read the article gave it my own view. Then I gave a practical view from my daughter’s experience.
Perhaps instead of saddling that ‘poor me story’ mule, you may want to consider an alternative method of transportation.
“Sad liars,sad liars. tsk tsk”
Oh, sorry, JM. I thought you were calling ME a liar.
Thanks for clearing that up.
How about concentrating on one thread at a time instead of mixing and matching at your own pleasure.
If you’d like I can do the same thing and draw out something you wrote 4 weeks ago and claim it applies to what is currently being discussed.
I realize you may have rationalization issues, but try to focus at the topic at hand.
This is the same thread. Scroll upwards.
You might want to see the doctor about those Alzheimer’s symptoms.
Usually I remember when I call somebody I liar, but that’s just me . . .
Yeah, I remember when came what. You asked that lame question about the earth being 10,000 years old in other threads and then introduced into this thread as being a fact that something I actually said.
Perhaps your the ones that needs the meds.
And yeah for typing what you did, you made yourself a liar. That is you attributed something to me that I never wrote.
I don’t answer ridiculous questions like that only intended to provoke me.
If you’re using Windows Explorer, hit “edit.”
Then hit “find.”
Type in “10:59″.
That should help refresh your . . . uh . . . memory . . .
So because I said something as true that I couldn’t know as true, I was a liar.
I agree.
And that’s why Bush is a liar.
You have to agree with that, don’t you?
Why would I use Windows Explorer on the web?
Perhaps you are having computer language issues.
I’m off to bed. Drink some green tea, it will help you with your tension.
Let the record show, JM refuses to admit when he’s caught.
Bush is a liar by the same criteria he judged me.
But he is too much of an intellectual coward to admit the obvious logical conclusion.
Go to sleep, JM? Hell, you need to wake up from your fantasy . . .
Poor JM got his ass kicked and kicked good.
Just because he ran away while it was getting kicked didn’t mean it wasn’t kicked.
I know, JM, next time I’ll make it easy on you and type with one hand behind my back.
Sure looks like DA shared his stash with ComradeAmerika.
What a little pathetic man you are, Golf Nutz……
Yup, you never can get the CONservatives to admit when they’re wrong.
Look at Bush.
The best you can do is have them run off claiming “victory” . . .