People with downsyndrom have that certain look about them, as do schizophrenics, but Robertson has some sort of offshoot of paranoia, which drives his thinking, and that can reinforce whatever conclusions he wishes to draw.

He’s right ‘at home’ with the untethered ambiguities of religion.

BWAHAHA, you obviously have never worked in a hospital, the politics run rampant, and shifts very rarely end on time, you get called in on your days off too, work extra shifts.

And I’ve never worked in the business world like that, so I guess I don’t see how my femininity would change much. Maybe that is true, but it certainly shouldn’t be.

But I still think you are the exception of women who feel that religiously, men should be the head of the household. You said your husband wasn’t a bible thumper type- maybe that is why it has worked out well for you. I had a friend from a message board, both of our children have the same condition. She was living with an abusive husband, both of them VERY religious. I kept hearing from her how she felt it wrong to leave, and that it was her duty to just live with what he dealt her…it didn’t matter that raising this child was already stressful, and adding stress to the child making him more irritable, and her own stress, she was practically suicidal. I finally had to end our relationship because I just couldn’t stand it anymore. But I will say this- she went to counseling with two ministers, a baptist and a catholic…and the baptist (I don’t think it was a Southern) minister told her she basically needed to get out and take the kid. The Catholic, he sided with the husband and blamed it all on her.

I do not feel it is my husband’s obligation to take care of me. I feel it is our responsibility to love and care and respect one another, and that means me taking care of myself. Although he’s a little pissy today lol, I might have to go be all cute and make him snap out of it.

I do like that some churches are trying to show men that they need to be part of the family and not just the breadwinners. (maybe golf should pay attention). We ALL need to invest more time in our families and our kids, NOT just the mothers. 50-50 for work, 50-50 for home. If we ever acheived true equality, women wouldn’t have to choose between work and home, and men wouldn’t either, because we’d ALL be the same.

You simply cannot tell me it is more important and more time consuming to be sitting behind the desk, the CEO at a company, as it is to be a nurse in the Emergency room- the traditional male vs female jobs. And if that woman is a single mom, she’s likely pulling double shifts too.

Sorry for my part in the digression-

Please continue… LOL

I never said that if I didn’t ask for help I didn’t get it, I did say that if I needed extra help he would give it. I’m fortunate that he offers- as I have a business and I am home a lot more than he is. He could easily pull rank and say- hey you’re home more do it.

It sounds like you got a real winner of a boss back then. I would have addressed the hippocracy. I am pretty confrontational when I need to be. Both parties were wrong. I maybe would have waited until I quit though! :-)

I’m also all for women being paid equally for equal work, holding offices, etc. No problem with it and if the woman is the best person then hire her, if she’s not, then don’t- gender is not a thing to me. I worked in corporate America for 10 years- saw everything and dealt with a lot. The statitics about women in the workforce (higher offices) are partly because those roles are less flexible by nature and women who want to have time with their children don’t choose those other roles as often (VP, Pres, CEO, ec.) It’s not always that the system has failed the woman. Being a supervisor of something means you have to be more assessible- not all women want those demands.

I could have climbed the ladder, but chose not to because my job would then require too much time. I’m built differently- my profession is less important. This isn’t wrong and women who don’t choose career are not wrong or weak. If more women chose to invest their intelligence, talents, and gifts into their home and families, I believe with all my heart that our country would have less crime, higher grades in schools, and less people in psychotherapy!

For Tracy:Those Scriptures you copied and pasted are deeper than cut off your hand. Think about the meaning behind the words. He was talking to people who were judgemental toward others so he said- hey you’re seeing things this way because you have something in your eye- get rid of it, then deal. He also said if your eyes cause you to sin, pluck out your eyes to save your soul- He didn’t mean go out and actually pluck out your eyes- He meant that your soul is so much more valuable than your eyes. Would you ever sell your eyes for millions of dollars? No, of course not- so much more valuable is your soul. That was His point.

The verse about women being quiet in the church is often sited, but usually taken out of context. In most commentaries Paul is writing this to a particular group of women who were causing problems with bickering and gossip. This verse is not widely used (at least in the churches I have been in) as a foundational verse for women in the church.

When siting Scripture you have to read the verses around your selected verse. Use context and common sense to help understand it. I’m not saying this in a preachy way- but just if no one ever said it, it’s really important. Always be suspect of anyone- preachers included- when on one verse a sermon or teaching is based. Otherwise a good many false teachings and misrepresentations can happen. Two of the verses you note are from Deut.- the Old Test. and this was Jewish law. Jesus came and liberated women. I’ve stated this before. No one else says- not even in modern day society- that a man is expected to sacrifice his life for his wife (like Christ for His church)- but this is the love the Bible says they should have. No man who keeps this in his heart will behave like the boss P-mom described. And women are called to love their husbands as the church loves Christ- with thankfulness and actively doing things to help.

Why is this so bad and not given any credibility without dogging it? I had several opportunities to get married- proposal and all- but I waited for the guy who would understand this. Thank God it worked out! I thought I was going to wait forever- and guess what, he wasn’t some Bible thumping guy- just an ordinary man who wanted an extraordinary love. Sounds corny but it’s true. I know it is true for most of the people I know- and not just on the surface.

Why is it so hard to acknowledge? Women are far less valued by the music industry than by church, and yet we actually think they are empowered. Take a long enough look at the entertainment industry and tell me that the women in the headlines are really being valued.

Tracy if you would seriously like to use Scripture to make your points, check out the Life Application Bible- (any version, but I tend to like NKJ) it has good commentaries that helps put verses into context- it goes verse by verse pretty much.

On a side note to anyone: a good book to read and encourage teens to read is called “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” and “Boy Meets Girl” they both describe waiting for the right mate to have the best possible relationship later- communication, mutual respect, etc. I didn’t read them until college, but they are great for teens who are starting to date.

Remember I grew up ultra conservative, I did see some of the good marriages (at least on the surface) that you speak of. My step father was not the same religion, he was very respectful of women.

But by far, I also saw the damaged ones, where the men dominated, and even abused the wives. It’s also the reason why women had to fight for their rights. And today, we still don’t get equal treatment, it’s getting closer but we’re not there. Why did it take till 2006 to have a female speaker of the house? Women are 50% of the population, but we hold less than 25% of offices! And we still make 75 cents on the dollar to men.

I had a boss who was southern baptist, and I had to listen to this same spiel from the wife. But I also got to watch their relationship, and trust me, it was nothing close to a warm cozy loving relationship. He treated her so disrespectfully, hanging up on her, refusing to take her calls, basically ignored anything she wanted. Her response was to act like a spoiled brat- a child! He also treated the rest of his women staff like he was our daddy, and I really resented that. I didn’t stay there long at all.

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.” (Mark 9:43)

“If any man takes a wife, and goes in on her, and detests her, and charges her with shameful conduct, and brings a bad name on her, and says, ‘I took this woman, and when I came to her I found she was not a virgin…” (Deuteronomy 22:13,14)

“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)

By now it looks like I tend to write too much, but your lack of understanding on this issue is maybe something that can be changed. This lack of understanding is what ridicules women who decide to be submissive to their own husbands.

The system you’re talking about doesn’t work and I would hate it. It sounds like a high school game. Obviously even the best systems will not work when selfish, immature people are using them. If a woman has it in her to be vindictive toward her husband then she shouldn’t have married him. I agree- marriage is teamwork- 100%.

Why is it so hard to actually read what I type without putting words in my mouth? Seriously. I never said that I am less, I never said that I am not in the decision making process.

If you marry the right man- one mature enough to see his role as needing to cherish his wife and lay down his life for his wife- why would he then lord power over her to hurt her? He won’t. My husband doesn’t and I know plenty of marriages where the husband is truly getting it right. The wife is to love her husband and be his help. That isn’t to say he never helps her, my husband helps me all the time and when I need extra help I just ask for it.

A man who is getting it right has a lot on his shoulders and my role is to help him handle those pressures. His role is to protect me from the pressures I face. Sounds awful doesn’t it? Here’s the thing- women war with this because they need to be control freaks with their husbands and the world tells women- don’t let a man tell you what to do. If my husband aks me to do something and it is to help our household and is reasonable- why wouldn’t I do it? If it is not reasonable you communicate it and not harbor it against him. I also ask him to do things- and guess what- he does them. Did I just breach the chain of command? Of course not. It’s life. I think some people just create there own problems because they like drama. Maybe P-mom, these are drama queens you’re talking about.

I am a pretty strong personality and didn’t get married until I was 31 (enough time to be settled in my own ways) but I also allow my husband to lead. I respect and trust him to do it. While I might agee (which is rare since we discuss most things), I always know that he has considered me, my feelings, and how it affects me- whatever it is, so I am not a victim in any way. I truly wish I knew you P-mom and you could actually see what I mean. I have seen bad marriages and I could not imagine the daily torture of living with it- but the Biblical model does work when the directions are followed- there is none of this victimization you site.

What part of anything in this means that I view women as less? Just because man is rightfully the head of the household doesn’t mean women is less, it just means according to Scripture she is better suited for a different role. Different does not mean less.

You and so many other women have this preconceived idea and bias against this and don’t really listen. You might know some really vindictive women and I am sad that you have seen victims of over-bearing men. But this does not mean that the system doesn’t work- it simply means these people have had failing marriages.

Again- a book, but don’t put words in my mouth. Maybe this has never been explained to you accurately and the only explanation comes from people with failing marriages. For what it’s worth, I would never advise someone to do anything but break out Scripture and follow it like a recipe.

Most of the time, they are superior to men and we’re just too damned stupid to realize it.

(Wink, wink, heavy sarcasm.)

Actually, I always hated being in a relationship with a woman that did not want to be my equal.

I’ve heard from some Christian women how this set up works. Yes, the husband gets to make the final decisions, but if the wife doesn’t like it, she’s sure to make him pay for it in other ways. Which to me is pitting one person against the other when you’re supposed to be working as a team. Emotional warfare- not something I’m into for marital bliss.

You have the absolute right to believe what you want, I just think you’re selling yourself short to think that his opinion is more important for the decisons that impact your life just as much as his.

And working with the elderly, I’ve come across many who have been very harmed by this belief- financially, emotionally, and physically.

I just really hate it when women advocate being lesser beings. It’s total crap.

Whenever someone is out to shine a spotlight on themselves it is suspect. True Christianity is about humility and gratitude to God- that’s why self-righteous people have really missed the whole message of the Bible. And that’s what turns off most people about Pat and other showy televangelists. The only ones I have consistantly liked are Charles Stanely and D. James Kennedy. Jerry Falwell’s content is usually good but he comes off all wrong sometimes- not all the time, but enough where he creates baggage by his on-air personality. There might be more, but I am pretty picky about tv preachers.

Doesn’t that just make you question everything the man says and does?

My God gave me a brain with which to reason with, ask questions, and think for myself. I really doubt that my God would even know Pat Robertson, let alone speak directly to him.

I’ve watched his show a few times to see what his stand was on soe things. It’s okay until it starts getting into any real deep stuff. His organization does do a lot of good charity, but in terms of his overall impact (especially in the media) I wish he would retire quietly. I just thought his predictions were becoming a thing in recent years. I only lived in VA for about 5 years and the people I was around were not in love with him. The most I saw was moderate support.

He is very wealthy (I’ve actually seen Regent Univ. and have seen enough to know there’s a lot of money). I never said he didn’t have power, but I guess I did imply it. I am nieve to how people can take him so seriously because I do not.

His program is more for older people from what I have seen and I think the draw for people not in his denomination is that he is older, talks slower, and presents things in a more traditional mind-set. My grandmother always had trouble following mainstream news because they talk so fast and had stories about things she didn’t care about. The human interest stories on his program are like “Extreme Makeover” but with a spiritual side- a big hit with that target market. It’s the same with so many other things- a little bit of truth mixed with untruth. I don’t like it for me.

Know, Lisa, Pat Robertson has always been saying stuff like this. His age has nothing to do with it. What is sad is there are grown people who sit and eat this stuff up like it’s candy. I lived in the Deep South and those people worship Pat Robertson. To them, he is God. So, you can’t tell me that Robertson has no power.

He is nothing more than a snake oil salesman that has found his way to make millions of dollars. And for Pat Robertson not having any power – then why does George W. Bush have any contact with him?

When was the last time the president consulted with Kia or Lisa?

So, Jim G. you are right, there are false-believers, make-believers, and true-believers. But because there are bad ones, doesn’t mean they are all misrepresenting what Scripture teaches. It says to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling”. Don’t rely on others to make or break it- you have to research it yourself.

And to political mom- my husdand and I both discuss everything and we decide things together, but if we disagree to the point when a decision has to be made, then yes, he has final call. The beauty of the system is that I married a man whom I trust to make those decisions and who considers my needs above his own. It might sound foreign to some people, but when both people truly have the other persons best interests at heart the system works and no one is put down. I run my own business and manage the household, but my husband is still head of the household. There’s a lot of rhetoric out there to put this kind of thinking down, but if you really stop and think about it it makes logical and practical sense.

Lisa I disagree about a male heading the household, that means he makes the decisions. My husband and I are perfect equals, we both run this house and we both make the decisions together.