Smoking bans still seem un-American to many Kansans, especially when they apply to businesses. But the Senate Judiciary Committee held a hearing Wednesday on a proposed statewide ban on smoking in bars and restaurants, and could vote on it next week. Committee Chairman John Vratil, R-Leawood, said he thinks passage is “a matter of time. I don’t know if this is the time, however.”
But Chuck Magerl, owner of Free State Brewery in Lawrence, which has a city ban, told the committee that if the state believes secondhand smoke is devastating to nonsmokers it should “have the courage to ban the sale of tobacco in Kansas.”
Don’t hold your breath on either idea.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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53 Comments
Why not? Although I don’t like government trying to tell businesses and private individuals what to do. If smoking is such a huge public health burden. Shouldn’t they just ban tobbacco all together?
I guess they would, but what will the tobbacco farmers do? I guess the government can pay them to stop growing tobbacco, hell they already pay them to grow it.
Nicotine Levels in Cigarettes Uphttp://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1580066,00.html
Free State Brewery has probably the best micro-brew in the state.The wheat beer is delicious,with or without a nice strong cigarette!
Tobacco is the only drug I know of that is being abused with the very first use, and has no clinical uses.
If smoking is going to be banned in public places within certain boundaries, the selling and/or possession of cigarettes should be banned within the same limits.
As a smoker I do agree with the right of a business to decide not to allow smoking. Also I take the steps to stay away from doorways, or any place where a non-smoker will have to go to do they business.
BUT and you knew there would be one. I do not agree that the state or local should have the right to mandate where a legal activity is done. This is just going to far!
As to banning tobacco products, never mind the tobacco farmers. Watch out for the smokers! At the very least it would make probations look like a shop lifting case. At the very most there would be a armed response! The only group that would be more militant would be coffee drinkers.
Lawrence Free State Brewery…mmm
That Tallgrass Pale Ale – oh my it’s good. No cigarette for me.
And I don’t think the government has any place telling businesses how to operate. If there’s a demand for non-smoking clubs, they’ll magically appear via the open market.
I am a non smoker and do not appreciate being around smoke. Ergo, I do not frequent bars, dance clubs, bingo parlors or the like. It is MY choice. It is also the OWNERS choice to allow or disallow it.
As to public places. OK, I give them that one. But to be fair, employees should have a place not tooooo inconvenient to smoke a butt. It is a nasty habit, but is still all too legal.
Ban tobacco? Whatever would the state do w/o that tax revenue?????
“If smoking is going to be banned in public places within certain boundaries, the selling and/or possession of cigarettes should be banned within the same limits.”
That wouldn’t work if there are private residences within those boundaries.
If I read these comments correctly, this idea meets with disapproval across the spectrum here. Yes, I know, we are not a representative lot. But we do represent most of the political spectrum.
Thus – the question. From where is this enourmous (and irresistable) pressure to pass this law? I think we agree this is the nanny state run amok – this is a matter best left to provate choice and the marketplace.
So why is it so irresistable?
Its quiet interesting the entire “I want to run my business how I want to run it” comments when it comes to government requiring smoke free establishments. The “infringement” on rights argument carries no weight. For instance government regulates businesses in these ways (to name a few):
1. Food quality2. Fire codes3. Working hours (in the case of some bars and similiar establishments)4. Minimum wage laws5. Workers Compensation6. City Zoning and Code Enforcement
Out of those 5, maybe #4 is controversal, but why don’t we hear people complaining about 1 and 2? Clearly it is because we understand that the health and safety of those who frequent those establishments is important, smoking bans are no different.
Likewise the individual freedom argument holds no weight as well. Just think of the quote of “the freedom to swing my fist ends at your face”. So whatever actions you do that doesn’t harm me is fine and you can do that in a free society. BUT if your actions harm me then they should be restricted by government. Examples include:
1. Drunk Driving Laws2. Murder3. Traffic Laws
Just my two cents!
A ban on tobacco, like prohibition, won’t work, it would just open up a huge black market.Why not just give people the natural consequences if they choose to smoke? No federal or state funded medical treatment for tobacco related illnesses. Why should the taxpayers have to foot the bill for a smoker’s health care costs? If someone wants to smoke, let that be their choice, but when they get sick and aren’t covered by private insurance, they can pay or for their own oxygen and lung cancer treatment or go without.Sounds fair to me, just think of the billons our government could save and use for other things, like education.
The anti smoking crowd has just gone too far. This is all a bunch of hatred for a group of people who aren’t hurting anyone but themselves.
Secondhand smoke has been PROVEN not nearly as dangerous as some like to think it is. Heck Booze at least causes instant deaths and I don’t see a bunch of prohibitionists running amuck passing laws against drinking. Of course not, most of the non smokers are boozers! As long as it’s not their vice.
It takes a smoker an average of about 40 years to kill them. And the smokers breathe in the second hand smoke too. Gasp a double whammy!
Look, I was always courteous as a smoker, but the more I’m shunned the more angry and less courteous I’m feeling about it.
Why stop there Mary, hell we could do it with people who don’t wear helmets, and people who eat too much, and people who skydive, and people who drink too much, and people who…
well gee, who does that leave?
Mary, the only problem I see with that theory, and maybe you agree with this and I just missed it would be that it really should be banned in public places. My dad smoked in our house from before I was born until after I turned 9. During those nine years I had pneumonia at least once a year, it was like clockwork. As soon as he stopped smoking in the house, so that I wasn’t near it all of the time, I stopped having problems. I’ve only gotten pneumonia twice in the 15 years since then. So, I’m sure that second-hand smoke is harmful. Why should someone who doesn’t choose to smoke have deal with those health issues?
Tobacco should NOT be banned. It should be regulated in a similar manner as other recreational drugs – e.g. alcohol and marijuana.
I don’t use any of them but I have no right to tell others not to. In the case of those that require combustion there should probably be some sort of restrictions of ‘where’ in order to protect non-users from second-hand smoke.
We just went through this in our town.They inacted an ordinance that makes it okay to smoke in bar/restaraunts AFTER 9:00pm.Now this suits ALMOST everyone,even though I agree with others here, owners should choose.
It HAS hurt business in some 3.2 bars, and one just took the only recourse and became liscensed as a private club.One last problem.ENFORCEMENT.Who’s going to do enforcement?If I’m an owner who doesn’t agree with the law, I won’t enforce it.The PD doesn’t have the resources or the motivation to enforce this.(I know some policemen who smoke and/or don’t want to enforce this)
So, let’s say I’m the bar owner.First thing I do is put up one of those “right to refuse service” signs.Second, when somebody comes into the business that I OWN, and I’m smoking…..they can complain all they want and then be promptly asked to leave and not return!!
Nuff said?
I have smoked for 40 years. I believe that businesses who do not allow smoking, i.e., WalMart, Dillons, QuikTrip, the list could go on and on and on, should NOT be allowed to SELL tobacco products. Watch them shut the hell up then, when it hits their bottom line. On the other side of the coin, the anti-smoker zealots should not patronize any store that sells tobacco products, thereby evidencing faith in their zealotry. Yeah, you betchum’, Red Ryder!
Ban smoking in all public establishments. If you want a food or liquor license – you must run a smoke free business.Smokers – you may not get this but you are a hazzard to adults and to children. Not only does second hand smoke hurt people…so does the presentation – it hurts the impressionable youth.I realize it’s too late to make everyone quit cold turkey and expect it to stick. It is not too late to put laws into place making your habit less accesible for people who want to enjoy a meal or a drink without SMOKE blowing near them.Let’s get abstract on this – step back and look at our society. What the hell are people doing puffing smokes? Doesn’t it seem just damn odd that anyone would want to do that to themselves?That’s my take…but what do I know.
Mary that money from that tobacco law suit is suppose to be paying for all that health care cost, what happen to it?
Tracy it does not take a whole PD to enforce that law, all it takes is one person working at random selection and a very very large fine for a penalty.
There is absolutely no comparison between smoking laws and food safety laws. After all, you can SEE someone light up…how many of us observe the process of preparing food? How many people are even trained to know what is the maximum temperature for meat storage? Building safety and food handling laws address something much more subtle than smoking laws.
With that said, I lived in California when that state passed a sweeping ban on smoking. As a non smoker, I feel it is ridiculous for the government to tell businesses how to operate. I could strongly support a law that requires busienesses to display whether smoking is or is not allowed..and let the PEOPLE decide…
They are the samethings raptor, the GOVERNMENT is TELLING the business owners what to do with their own business.
Using your logic, we should just eat food and if we got food sickness then we should stop eating there…but wait, what if its the only place we can afford to purchase food? Do we still get sick or do we ask the government to step in and require food to be prepared and stored in a way that protects the health of those who eat it.
Same concept, same deal.
Oh nonsense, face it, the only reason for the smoking bans is not health, it’s that you don’t like it.
There are a few people that are seriously impacted by smoking, that is true, asthmatics, CF, etc, but by far the concentration in most places wasn’t even enough to trigger those things.
And there were nonsmoking places before the smoking bans came into play, so it’s not like people had no options.
As for pneumonia- I’ve never had pneumonia, my kids have never had pneumonia. I have had bronchitis.I have been around smoke since I was born, and I’m 35 now.
I’m sure eating bbq every day 10 times a day would have killed me before now.
So lets get real.
Oh I was going to say about asthma, dust, fog, cold weather, also trigger an asthma attack.
Shall we ban those too?
“Mary that money from that tobacco law suit is suppose to be paying for all that health care cost, what happen to it?”
Posted by: Wiseman | January 19, 2007 at 12:04 PM
As I’m sure you know, it was a money grab from the start. It was no more about “the children” than the man in the moon. The pandering idiots (geniuses) saw an opening and took it. A lot of lawyers made a lot of money and a lot of states got a lot of money to spend on everything except tobacco related things.
Well, from an old coot who used to measure air particulates, EPA has already made studies on Cigarette smoke and its effects.
As you would guess 1 cigarette doesn’t contribute much to the polution of the air in a restaurant.
Multiply that by 100’s of cigarettes smoked in a restaurant a day and then you have a problem.
More so, to the people who work there and frequent customers.
Plus there is the surface contamination factor. Take a moist white napkin and wipe the wall of a known smoking area. It will come back a nasty tar yellow.
One only has to visit a motel/hotel room to find out real quick that the non-smoking room has been contaminated with that familiar cigarette stench.
Smokers don’t realize how bad that smells. :)
Yes I do JM, I have quit before, while not for long- it was enough to really start noticing.
And we used to run a bowling alley, I’ll never forget spraying the formula 409 on the backs of the chairs and watching the yellow run.
But how does that hurt someone unless you lick it- ew.
Well mom, scientifically I don’t know the answer to that question of how the yellow goo may harm a human.
I suppose in an area such as a restaurant full of food contact surfaces (anything that food comes in contact with) there is a chance that the yellow goo may make efficient cleaning harder and efficient cleaning not as effective.
Then one has to ask the question if the yellow goo is passed through the air by smoke, how much of this yellow goo ends up in the lungs of people with long term exposure (workers, frequent customers.)
Being that medical researchers already know that the surfactants of the alveoli of the lungs are compromised from direct smoking, they probably can conclude that the second hand smoke causes the same effect at a different rate.
In EPA rulings, sometimes causality along with particulate solutions in air are enough to issue warnings under air pollution standars.
Simply stated, if it’s in the air and conclusive proof can prove there is contamination then there is a problem.
You’re rights stop where mine begin, I have a chronic cough from being exposed to second hand smoke in my patient’s homes, I know this because I start coughing imediately when I enter their homes and it’s only getting worse. You make not have any effects now from your smoking, P mom, but I can guarantee you that you’ll regret like hell the day you started smoking when you get to my age, that’s about the time it’ll catch up with you, if not before.. I watched my brother and my stepfather die from smoking, it’s a pretty nasty death when you go for years struggling for every breath. My brother in law is starting the process now, he’s on continuous oxygen and can’t walk across a room without an huge effort on his part.Why should I have to pay for the consequences of your habit? If you want to slowly kill yourself, go ahead, but I shouldn’t have to foot the bill for your bad choices. Remember, kids who grow up with smoking parents have a 50% greater chance of smoking themselves, so the next time you light up, imagine your son with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth, maybe that will give you the incentive you need to quit, for your sake, I hope so.
You really think your chronic cough comes from walking into a patient’s home? But wouldn’t that be a temporary cough instead?
Or maybe you really DO have asthma, and the smoke does affect you. I’m going to guess the latter is more likely.
I don’t want my kids to smoke- really. I don’t want to smoke myself. And yes, at some point it WILL catch up with me, no doubt.
I’m just saying, if smokers are exposed to primary AND secondary smoke ALL THE TIME- every day for years and years and it STILL takes this long to do damage….
I can’t believe in most people that secondhand smoke is all that harmful to those who might breathe it for a half hour.
I can give you an example even. I have an aunt who is EXTREMELY asthmatic- I mean she’s bad off enough that when she’d come into my grandmother’s house, she would audibly begin to wheeze when my grandmother would smoke.
We went out to eat with her frequently before the smoking ban. Not ONCE did I ever see her have an effect from being in a restaurant- where smoking was going on across the room.
Not even once.
My exposure is several hours a day when I’m working. It may be asthma, but I know for a fact that their smoking triggers my coughing.I have a friend who never smoked and has severe lung disease because her parents were chain smokers while she was growing up. She didn’t start to exibit symptoms until she was in her late 50’s.Like I said before, it will catch up with you or the ones you expose your smoking to sooner or later. All the medical research concludes that second hand smoke is damaging to those who breathe it.
Smoking -
1. Nich2. Groove3. Rut4. Grave
It will wear on you eventally.
How does one know that exposure caused their lung damage years after the fact?
I can name a whole bunch of things off the top of my head that could cause lung damage that I’ve breathed in…crop dust, cleaner fumes, photography chemicals…
the list goes on and on.
Political Mom,
Different Chemicals affect tissues, including the lung differently.
There are some chemicals that cause similar tissue damage. This is why there are Occupational Medicine Doctors that can diagnose such things.
The longest-running and highest-quality secondhand smoke study ever done, completed too late (2003) to be included in Surgeon General Carmona’s report, found no link between secondhand smoke and lung cancer or heartdisease. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7398/1057
The refusal of OSHA, the government agency charged with the protection of worker health, to ban workplace smoking, calls into question the danger of tobacco smoke exposure in a bar or restaurant. OSHA has established PELs (Permissible Exposure Levels) for all the measurable chemicals, includingthe 40 alleged carcinogens, in secondhand smoke. PELs are levels of exposure for an 8-hour workday from which, according to OSHA, no harm will result. OSHA explains that under normal workplace circumstances, secondhand smoke “exposures would not exceed these permissible exposurelimits (PELs)”http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24602
In an estimate of health benefits of the New York City smoking ban,American Council on Science and Health President, Elizabeth M. Whelan Sc. D., M.P.H., admits that “There is no evidence that any New Yorker — patronor employee — has ever died as a result of exposure to smoke in a bar or restaurant.” Whelan further states that “The link between secondhand smokeand premature death, however, is a real stretch.”http://www.acsh.org/factsfears/newsID.215/news_detail.asp
Why take the chance? In a study a few years ago (probably funded by the drug companies) the “experts” decided there was no link between breast cancer and hormone replacement therapy, then OOPS!, when the incidence of breast cancer sky rocketed, they came out with the warning that there was a link between the two. Now that hormone use has plummeted, there were 14,000 fewer cases of breast cancer last year in this country. I’d rather not be exposed to carcinogens from someone’s cigarette smoke if I can avoid it, because a few years down the road they’ll prove there is a link (unless of course the tobacco companies fund the research), you can count on it.
Mary, I don’t smoke in restaurants because my smoke is likely to bother or worry people, but why should it be illegal for me to light a cigar in a Kansas cigar bar? How would that hurt you? Why should the state care?
I don’t care where you smoke as long as I’m not exposed to it. The problem I have is that the taxpayers are forced to subsidize someone’s cigarette habit, then we have to foot the bill for the smoker’s health care when they get sick.I’ve actually seen a woman buy cigarettes with a vision card, which really pissed me off. Do you have any idea how much the state pays out for treating medicaid recipients with tobacco related illnesses? That’s the problem I have with smoker’s “rights”. If you want to smoke in a bar or your home, I couldn’t care less, but you better be rich or have private insurance, because I don’t want to pay for your lung cancer treatment.
“I’ve actually seen a woman buy cigarettes with a vision card”
Bullshit, MC, everyone knows that you cannot buy cigarettes with a Vision Card.
You completely invalidate your points when you make stupid statements like that.
Christ, and I don’t even smoke.
I can see it now, people will be staring people down who are overweight eating a cheeseburger…and they’ll yell like Mary, “I hope you’re rich and can pay your own health insurance”.
We can start staring down those who don’t have seatbelts on too…
Smoking <– incredibly moronic
WSClark, I didn’t think they could either, but when I confronted the clerk who sold her the cigarettes, he explained that there are two parts to the vision card, one is for food and the other is for money, they can spend the money part anyway they want. If you don’t believe me, call SRS and ask them about it.PMom, over 300,000 Americans die every year from tobacco related ilnesses, and it’s totally preventable. Just because someone eats at McDonald’s every day, that’s no garrantee they’re going to get sick, but if they smoke everyday, it’s guaranteed they will.
Gasp, people die!
Psst, Mary…100% of people die at some point in their lives!
Two words: George Burns.
Secondhand smoke killed him ya think?
My cousin was in her early forties when she died from emphysemia (leaving her two teenage daughters), my brother was in his early 60’s, my stepfather was also in his 60’s, now I get to watch my brother in law die a most horrible death..and there’s no turning back for him at this point. I guess if the quality of your life means nothing to you, it really doesn’t matter to me either. When you get to the point that you need oxygen and breathing treatments 4 times a day, call me and I’ll open you to home health services and take good care of you until you die. Keep smoking, it’s all job security to me.
Yes Mary, and people live 20 years with alzheimers not knowing who they are and the people who love them…
and people drop dead at 50 from heart disease too.
And 21 year olds end up paralyzed from the neck down.
And some 6 year olds die of cancer.
And some 2 year olds die from congenital defects.
I’m saying, in the big scheme of things…smoking is not the worst thing in the world.
I’m sure all those you mentioned above wouldn’t have made the choice to be paralyized or to die at 6 from cancer…why are you choosing to be sick when you can prevent it? Doesn’t the quality of your life mean anything to you?It’s Ok right now because you don’t feel the effects of your habit, but when you’re my age you’ll regret it. I remember what a teacher said to me one time that made me choose to be a non smoker…he said if I smoked and managed to live until I’m 60, I’ll wish that I hadn’t.
well you’re probably right about that. Does my life matter to me? Sure it does. You have no idea how much I’d like to just put them down and never smoke again.
But until I do, I’m still going to say that it takes forever to really hurt you, and someone who doesn’t smoke isn’t going to be harmed nearly as much as everyone is trying to say. (barring the conditions I noted earlier).
Even if I do stop smoking today Mary, I’ve smoked for over 20 years now, is it really going to add much to my life?
I doubt it.
It’s not too late to quit, your lungs will start to heal themselves the minute you stop. Because you’re still young enough, your health will only improve if you do. I hope you find the motivation to stop before it is too late.
Those families with the lung problems, maybe it is a family genetic fault. If it is, maybe their insurance shouldn’t cover it.
Why is it that no one is jumping on the bandwagon about the pollutants that their vehicles or the company that they work for put out? This shouldn’t just be a pick and chose, it should be all inclusive.
Smoking should be banned, the burning of fossil fuels should be banned, and any company that produces any kind of pollutant should be shut down. Now everyone can live happily ever after, the end.