From the Democratic response to President Bush’s State of the Union speech by Sen. James Webb of Virginia:
"Like so many other Americans, today and throughout our history, we serve and have served, not for political reasons, but because we love our country. On the political issues — those matters of war and peace, and in some cases of life and death — we trusted the judgment of our national leaders. We hoped that they would be right, that they would measure with accuracy the value of our lives against the enormity of the national interest that might call upon us to go into harm’s way.
"We owed them our loyalty, as Americans, and we gave it. But they owed us — sound judgment, clear thinking, concern for our welfare, a guarantee that the threat to our country was equal to the price we might be called upon to pay in defending it."
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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70 Comments
I like Webb – but only because I went to Rockhurst High School in Kansas City too.
Anyway, he is definitely wearing a rug in this speech.
Isn’t this the Senator that actually has a son serving in Iraq?
Yep.
not that it really makes a difference.
we can all feel for the families that have loved-ones in Iraq – in my opinion you don’t join a special fraternity of families if you have someone over there.
you do join it if you have a loved-one killed or seriously injured.
That is correct, Red, Jim Webb’s son is serving in Iraq and recently had a close call with an IED that killed one or two members of his patrol.
“We owed them our loyalty, as Americans, and we gave it. But they owed us — sound judgment, clear thinking, concern for our welfare, a guarantee that the threat to our country was equal to the price we might be called upon to pay in defending it.”
Word…
Nothing like being an expendable target put there to draw fire.Huh, Andrew?
It will be fun watching the Repukes try to swiftboat him. Ain’t gonna work.
But, have to agree with capn-dex – THAT HAIR!
That is NOT politician hair!The teeth will pass.
The Democrats will be smart to continue to have vets/parents carry the torch on the war.
Unlike John Kerry, Jim Webb is apparently the proud owner of a set of balls. He didn’t buy the Bush BS line at the WH reception for new Senators and he obviously will not put up with any crap from the Karl Roves.
If Kerry had half the cajones that Jim Webb has, we would be taking about a great speech that President Kerry gace last night.
My only comment was that if he has a son that is actually in Iraq fighting, then maybe we should listen more closely to what Sen Webb has to say.
I, myself, speaking as a person without a loved one in the military is one thing, but when a person has an actual personal stake in this war (other than the actual political stakes for our country) – it makes it more believable.
Webb’s father faked the Berlin blockade so he could get photo ops. Webb and his brother took their own cameras and crews to Vietnam. Webb’s son will deliberately injure himself with a rice cooker to get a purple heart.
Swifty,
Damn. You’re good. Channel Rove much?
Webb has shown he’s ready and able to take Junior to the woodshed. Between Daddy Webb and Grandma Pelosi, it’s about time the grownups were back in charge.
I feel a presence … yes … a definite presence … yes master … whatever you say master …
What was the question again?
I find it ironic that the same Republicans who supposedly support the troops are also making fun of the very people who are sacrificing their son to the Iraq cause. This behaivor is why people are catching on to the callousness and hypocrisy of Bush and his Republicans.
I’m not a big Webb fan, but concerning this war, he’s spot on.
The CONs “support the troops” just so long as the troops support the war.
When like Kerry and the Winter Soldiers or the Gulf War Syndrome sick vets or the current GI’s in Iraq express their first amendment rights to criticise the war, then the CONs cut them off at the knees and kick ‘em when they’re down.
Case in point is Jim Webb. When he was Sec’ry of the Navy under uber-conservative Reagan, he could do no wrong.
Now that he opposes Worst President Ever, there’s no name dirty enough to call the man, despite his family’s continuing military sacrifice.
You are correct, Red.
The CONs had a helluva run, I’ll give them that.
Ever since Newt GinGRINCH, the killing of the “fairness doctrine” and the rise of right-wing hate radio, the vendetta against President Clinton, and the stolen election of 2000, everything was going their way.
Then they got puffed up on their own success.
Pride goeth before a fall.
Americans know damn well who railroaded us into this idiotic war with Iraq, and, baby, they are pissed.
I’m not a Webb fan nor a Webb hater. But, the fact remains that he fabricated data (read: lied) about the “majority” of the military.
Oh give it up Testicles.
GoofNut–
Where’d you hear that? Rush Limpballs?
“U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006.”
http://www.zogby.com/NEWS/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
“Stars and Stripes Article” on the same poll
samdhttp://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=34538&archive=true
That’s the only poll I’ve heard of on the support of troops for the war.
Where’s your evidence?
He doesn’t have any.
He DOESN’T HAVE ANY?!
REALLY?!
I am shocked — SHOCKED! I tell you — that a solid pillar of truth like GolfNut would accuse a man of lying with absolutely no proof or even any evidence.
Man, I didn’t think that conservatives had a false bone in their bodies.
I mean if you can’t trust Rush and the Moonie Times and Fox News and the lantern-jawed men who believe them, then who’s left to trust?
What a day of bitter disillusionment this is!
Capn – all those traitors in that poll are fakes! They are just there long enough to find a rice cooker to injure themselves with to get a purple heart!
Swifty, I do believe that it is time for you to retire.
Your time has passed. The jokes, while initially mildly humorous, have ceased to be anything except annoying.
Please collect your door prize on the way out ad sit on the bench outside with JM and others like him.
swifty,
“Webb’s son will deliberately injure himself with a rice cooker to get a purple heart.”
Actually, it was grenade shrapnel while destroying a rice supply — the Purple Heart was for an arm injury later that day, when an explosion tossed the boat (and threw another man overboard).
http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/jkbronzestar.pdf
Repub. Bob R. Perry gave $100,000 to the Swift Boat Group? The Perrys gave $3 MILLION to TX Repubs in 2002. Totals of $6,000 to Bush, $27,325 to Tom DeLay and his PAC…’Republican-funded Group Attacks Kerry’s War Record’http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
Jim Webb has balls because every morning that he wakes up he wonders what has become of his soldier son. That kind of motivation allows him to cut through the sludge of playing politics.I say give the man a bullhorn and get him on the evening news.George Bush and Dick Cheney are disgraceful leaders deserving of impeachment. Will that happen? No, but they at least need to know how despised they are.Read Drudge to see the blip about Cheney getting offended by Wolf Blitzer’s question about his gay daughter. I want to YELL – Mr. Cheney, at least your gay daughter is not in harms way – how dare you send a young man to die and then have the small balls to be offended about questioning your gay daughter. His daughter wrote a freeging book – she is fair game. Not that’s there’s anything wrong with it.
Webb said: “The majority of the nation no longer supports the way this war is being fought; nor does the majority of our military”
The links you’ve posted do not reflect how the military feels the war is being fought. I’ve only seen one that asked that question, and 42% responded unfavorably.
42% is not a majority.
Even for the Dims.
Another thing Webb said: “The House just passed a minimum wage increase, the first in ten years, and the Senate will soon follow.”
oops.
“Soldiers trusted national leaders”
Yes they did.
And “national leaders” betrayed that trust and are still doing so.
Democrats and increasing nubers of even minded Republicans are at least trying to be worthy of that trust.
Chuck Hagel R Neb today LAMBASTED those of his party for their failure to be worthy of that trust.
“The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,” while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.””
The largest single group say “out now”; have either now or within 6 months.
Only 23% favor “stay the course”
Don’t bother Ben, I had this argument with Mr. Balls in a Wad yesterday. He doesn’t care about data, it only counts if it agrees with his narrow view.
Yeah testicles, thank the republicans for doing their tactics to screw with the minimum wage package.
Fortunately war is not run by opinion polls.
GoofNut writes, “I’ve only seen one that asked that question, and 42% responded unfavorably.
“42% is not a majority.”
You are correct, sir, 42 percent is not a majority.
But where did you find this magical 42 percent, how old is the poll it came from, assuming that the pole isn’t the one up your butt.
Last February, 72 percent of over 900 soldiers in a face-to-face poll by professional pollster Zogby said that the US should get out of Iraq by the end of the year.
Since it is now the end of January 2007, and Bush wants an even bigger SURGE (let alone a withdrawl), one can assume that the same 72 percent would disapprove of the way the war is being fought.
72 percent is bigger than 49.4 percent, so it’s a solid majority.
Unlike in golf, the lower number isn’t better.
Case closed. You lose.
Wars aren’t run by opinion polls, Nathan observes.
However elections are.
How’d that work out for your gung-ho war party last time, Nathan?
Let’s see . . . every Democratic incumbent kept his or her seat and Democrats took control of both the Senate and the House for the first time since 1994.
The people are speaking. And they’re saying screw Bush and the horse he rode in on . . .
CapnAmerica and everyone else,
The problem with that poll is that all it asks is if they want us out in a certain time.
I don’t beleive it asked if they support the plan, agree with the plan, or have a better one.
Of course they want to go home. I want to go home.
That has nothing to do with my support for the President. It is because we all have families and friends we want to see and be with.
Ask anyone sitting in the desert for months and of course you will get quite a few saying they want out now.
You don’t base your policy decisions off of opinion polls.
TaDa!Nathan hits it right square on the head.
or..”spot on” as Pee would say.
They only asked if they wanted to go home.
They do. Duh.
CapnAmerica,
You want an honest assessment?
Even with all this anti-war rhetoric the Democrats barely regained control of the Senate and won a marginal number of house seats to give them control there.
All this on the midterm elections of a second term president.
If you look at history you will see that every president in his second term midterm elections looses alot more seats than Bush did.
You can call it a victory for the anti war crowd all you want, but you barely ousted the Republicans even with all this hype and supposed dislike.
It wasn’t barely Nathan.
We took HOW many seats in the house? Far more than we ever expected even. And the senate we didn’t expect to gain that and we did.
And all of the polls (barring Faux News of course) indicate that a large majority of American citizens are against this war, the majority of Iraqis are against it, the majority of other nations, and the majority of the troops.
It’s done.
Political Mom,
Opinions are like the wind.
If they changed tomorrow you would still be sitting here bashing the war.
This is not war by opinion. This is war being led by our President.
Take all the opinion polls you want.
Pee,People like you want to see America lose. You’re ROOTING for America to lose. You are more interested in seeing Bush lose than you are in seeing America win.
And that, my friends, is true anti-patriotism.
No….we do not want to see America “lose”, but when victory is unattainable and the cost is too high for the benefits then one must re-evaluate. You are in the minority on this one, Nut….
“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” it’s time some of our so called patriots remember that.
“If you look at history you will see that every president in his second term midterm elections loses alot more seats than Bush did.”
Did you hear that from Ann Coulter?
‘Cause she said it too, and it’s just as wrong when she said it.
Paul Krugman points out that “Tuesday’s election was a truly stunning victory for the Democrats. Candidates planning to caucus with the Democrats took 24 of the 33 Senate seats at stake this year, winning seven million more votes than Republicans. In House races, Democrats received about 53 percent of the two-party vote, giving them a margin more than twice as large as the 2.5-percentage-point lead that Mr. Bush claimed as a “mandate” two years ago — and the margin would have been even bigger if many Democrats hadn’t been running unopposed.
“The election wasn’t just the end of the road for Mr. Bush’s reign of error. It was also the end of the 12-year Republican dominance of Congress. The Democrats will now hold a majority in the House that is about as big as the Republicans ever achieved during that era of dominance.”
Well there are 2 Americas
And right now? MINE is winning.
Oh and since you are arguing semantics over “they asked them if they want to go home”, here’s another poll, the one you so wonderfully ignored last night with your little snipe about statistics….
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003526245
“Barely one in three service members approve of the way the president is handling the war, according to the new poll for the four papers (Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Times).”
Notice that wording….APPROVE OF THE WAY THE PRESIDENT IS HANDLING THE WAR….barely 1 in 3….
Nicki,Your obvious lack of statistical analysis is showing.
If 1 in 3 approve, that doesn’t mean that the converse is true.
Nice find, Nicki. And yes it does, Goof Nut.
If only one in three approve, that means that two in three don’t approve. Even if they have no opinion, they still DON’T APPROVE.
Webb said, “The majority of the nation no longer supports the way this war is being fought; nor does the majority of our military.”
2 out of 3 is 66.6 percent. Last time I checked, 66.6 percent was higher than 50 percent.
You people are really scary. You don’t seem to really CARE what the facts are, your minds are already made up.
Here you are bitching at P_Mom because she isn’t gung-ho enough about the war, as if that makes a damn bit of difference to what happens in effing IRAQ.
It wasn’t the ATTITUDE of the passengers of the Titanic that made the ship sink, it was the pilot who drove the ship into an iceberg.
War is peace.Freedom is slavery.Ignorance is strength.
Here is what I think.
I think that if the media would focus even a tenth of the time they do on the negative focusing on the positive things over the course of this war the public opinion would not be so bad.
Opinions are formed off of what is fed to you.
If I didn’t pay any attention to what was actually happening here and only watched the news I would think things here are awful and want us to leave too.
That is why it is just an opinion.
Which is why democrats love to use it so much, because with opinion you don’t need facts or reasoning.
You can just keep throwing around I am in the majority, more people agree with me….yada yada yada
ComradeAmerika obviously has no idea how to interpret statistical data.
Nathan–
What are the facts? Why isn’t Fox News and The Washington Times and the National Review and The Weekly Standard over there finding the facts.
How many new jobs have been created?
What’s the oil revenue like now?
What’s the GDP, the balance of trade, the unemployment rate?
What do the Iraqis say about their country–better now or worse?
How many children attend school now compared to before?
What’s the household income now and before?
How many refugees are there now?
Maybe the reason that we don’t get that information is that the country is so chaotic, nobody can find it out.
GoofNut–Nicki has a link to her poll. I have a link to my poll.
Where’s your poll?
I mean besides the one you keep up your butt . . .
CapAmer: you got it!
Thanks CapnAmerica… I think it’s startling that instead of taking a deep look at the spirit of the poll, that some are more concerned with sniping about someone’s statistical credentials. While barely 1 in 3 agree with the handling of the President’s war of opportunity, the other 2 in 3 could be saying that little men from Mars made the President act like a slackjawed moron, but the effect is still the same. THEY DO NOT APPROVE! If at best only 33% of those polled agree, then it is still well less than the 50% + 1 that would be required for you to cry that they are the majority. I mean honestly, look in your heart, how could any troop be for this war? Killing people that you have no idea if they are really the bad guys? Innocent civilians getting slaughtered because they spoke to you or tried to get a job with the police or Iraqi army…How could any one believe that this is an acceptable situation? I think you would have to be considered mentally deficient to believe this war is going in a good direction.
Nikki,
It is funny in an ironical way that you seem to care about those being killed here.
If you don’t support our being here, do you have any idea of how many more would be killed?
Yet that is the typical liberal attack.
You will sit here and use all these deaths to say how bad things are and we should leave, but as soon as I start talking to you about how many more would die when after we leave it is not our problem or just let them deal with it…
Yeah right, dont pretend like you care about those being killed here.
And if we had let Iraq alone and just contained Saddam?
YOU know, like how we had successfully done for years?
Nathan – are you saying that VietNam veteran Chuck Hagel (R-NE) doesn’t care about the troops?
I do care about the plight of the Iraqi people and I understand that it will be very bad when we leave, but it’s very bad there now. More importantly, the Iraqis don’t want us there. There is no easy answer to the colossal mess we have made over there. No matter which way we proceed many people are going to die. How is it that we allow this administration to recklessly disregard the advice of study groups, forgo any and all diplomacy on a completely failing policy? The American people should demand better from our government, the military should have never been put in this predicament.
I guess if leaving isn’t an option, then we just stay there forever and continue to have our soldiers killed for a pointless war? Yeah that’s a great plan. The sectarian issues of Iraq go back centuries, that can’t be fixed with bombs and guns. Maybe you are just figuring that pretty soon all the Iraqis will either have left the country or died…I guess then we would have our “victory”
BTW, CapnAmerica…love the 1984 reference in your 12:21 am post…
Nathan only answers the questions that nobody has asked him.
William Kristol was directly tied to plans to invade and occupy Iraq.
He is also a writer for The Weekly Standard and a regular fixture on Fox News panels.
Your telling me that someone like him is simply unable to get all or even ANY good news in Iraq out to the American public?
Maybe we don’t hear the “good news” because — other than some make work projects (like painting some schools) by no-bid price gouging contractors — not much good is happening.
Nathan,How do you see this ending? You are there in the middle of it. I can’t see any way for this to have a good ending and I have so much anger at the deception that got us there. In the meantime, the real danger in Afganistan is reappearing and we have no way to combat it. I’ll be honest there are many things I would be willing to die for but Iraq is not one. No one has yet been able to show me anything about this that is worth it.
Ben,
Do you want to go back to the putting words in each others mouth game?
Brenda,
“How do you see this ending?”
Within the next two years we will see more control from the Iraq government to only US support with logistics, air power, and training.
Within the next 5 years we will see a more stable country and more control over the violence.
It will take up to 10 years before Iraq is what you might concider a “stable” country.
“In the meantime, the real danger in Afganistan is reappearing and we have no way to combat it.”
This is not true. There are thousands of US troops and NATO troops in Afghanistan right now still fighting.
“I’ll be honest there are many things I would be willing to die for but Iraq is not one.”
Who says anyone is willing to die for Iraq?
I am willing to make the bad guys die.
“No one has yet been able to show me anything about this that is worth it.”
Well, there could be many reasons for that.
There are many people who wouldn’t support a war if it came down to defending their own family.
There are those who don’t support war unless it directly involves protecting us.
I could go on all day…
The point is, is there anything that would have you support this war?
I could tell you that most of the posters here will never support this war no matter what.
“Within the next two years we will see more control from the Iraq government to only US support with logistics, air power, and training.”
We were told that over two years ago.
Yup, and two years before that, Ben . . .
How many times do you have to be lied to before you stop believing the liars?
If Iraq was going to have a stable government capable of policing itself under our leadership, it would have had it by now.
The Bush invasion was based on lies. The Bush reconstruction is based on incompetence and massive fraud and graft.
Bush has failed month after month, year after year.
And the answer is “keep doing the same thing.”
“This is not true. There are thousands of US troops and NATO troops in Afghanistan right now still fighting.”
Fewer that 10% of the number we have in Iraq.
“The point is, is there anything that would have you support this war?
I could tell you that most of the posters here will never support this war no matter what.”
Probably correct. It was wrong from the beginning. Bush knew that.
Many of us supported Afghanistan because it directly related to US security. Iraq did not.
Saddest is that although Iraq WASN’T a threat to US security, Bush’s war has changed that.
I was supportive when we went to Afganistan because it made sense. Iraq only made sense if they were a threat to the US but we have since learned they were not. GW knew that no one would support his plan so he manipulated the country to get what he wanted. I believe he believed he was right but he was and still is deluded. How are you going to make a stable govenment there? I saw the piece on the news regarding the 5 soldiers that were killed meeting with Iraqi’s. I fear this will be the future. The Iragis seem too weak and too corrupt to protect themselves let alone American soldiers. How many times do you think the American public will stand for our soldiers to be killed so brazenly before we revolt?
I have noted this on similar threads but it warrants pointing out again here…..
Nathan’s estimations are in my opinion more optimistic than realistic. But I have to give him this:
They are FAR more realistic/honest than what the administration is telling us.
And they are the estimations of someone who is actually there.
Hey Nathan? If it is not revealing of national security, I wonder if you have heard any “scuttlebutt” about Iran. I think bush is gonna gloss over one mistake with another and attack them next, most likely within a year. Are you hearing any speculation on that?