Politically, President Bush’s troop surge in Iraq could face its moment of truth in a Senate resolution vote expected this week that, while nonbinding, would force GOP senators to go on record about whether they support Bush’s strategy.
Some, facing re-election in ‘08, are understandably nervous about hitching their wagons to the president’s failing and unpopular war strategy.
Presidential hopeful Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., is among a handful of conservatives who have publicly broken with the president and oppose the surge.
The vote could expose deep bipartisan cracks in support for Bush’s war escalation and signal how far Congress is willing to go to rein in the president.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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203 Comments
I have mixed feeling about it, there are not enough troops to be effective in Iraq. But then unless a smarter path is followed I am not sure how many would be enough. Right now they are more like a group of firemen that can only stand and watch the flames. The answer is not to send more firemen, it is to contain and deny the flames any fuel. We need to insure the average Iraqis a normal life, at least a daily life that they have the daily infrastructure. Clean drinking water, dependable electricity, food and fuel for a car, if we are to try to instill the “American way” there those are what will win many hearts.
To insure the security in Baghdad at this point is a fool’s errand, when the average citizen see us as a problem. Setting in a darken home, no water and no way to keep their food causing them to make a daily trip to the market where they are endangered. If you were to put yourself in their shoes, think how much support you would have for the Police if you could not even have a place at home where you are not reminded that the world you know is full of criminals.
Right now the rebuilding of the infrastructure is left to private contractors and the security of the infrastructure is also left to private security. I said it once before, we do not have enough forces to control Baghdad. But there is enough to secure the water, eclectic generation and other infrastructure that would give the average Iraqis more of a normal life and take away one of the most effective weapons that the enemy has. Also it would become a game of not looking for a needle in a haystack that has become more everyday where the haystack hates us. To one where the needle has to come to us, where we would be ready for them. From my personal experience, during the law enforcement academy there is a practice of searching a building. First my partner and I were the “cops”, going from room to room, door to door. Till we finally found the only place that the “Criminals” could be hiding. We thought we had a good plan, that is until the shooting started and suddenly I lost sight of my partner, he was in a darken room and we did not know where the shooting was coming from. Then it was our turn to be the “criminals”, we knew exactly where we were, we could tell where the “Cops” were and the Plan was just so simple. Lay in wait and let the “cops” come into a cross fire. Dividing them up and “Let the first one pass and then you take him and I will take out the other“. Guess what right now in Iraq, that is the game plan by the enemy. Just let the patrol pass into a box area and then all hell can break loose. Unless you shoot at the patrol they can not tell the enemy from the “friendly”.
But it becomes a simple thing if we are securing the pipe line, anyone coming close is an enemy.Again more troops or less the present plan is not feasible, it is fool hardy.
I think Brownback is right, a surge isn’t going to make any difference because the US cares more about establishing peace then the Iraqis do. It’s that simple. How many more Americans are we willing to sacrifice for a lost cause?
How much more valuable is an American life over an Iraqi life?
Does an American Child’s worth weigh more in gold than an Iraqi’s child?
People worldwide including those in the US bash the US Government for not getting involved in conflicts in Africa. They say we are prejudiced. But where are they? They are sitting in their homes nice and comfortable unwilling to make a sacrifice.
I can tell you from personal experience that people in foreign countries become more human and more similar to what you identify as normal human beings once you actually live in the area.
One even ponders their cleverness and think we could do that in the US it would be a big success.
Politics injected into a conflict is like pouring hotsauce on breakfast eggs for a guy with ulcers. It seldoms does any good and most of the time confuses the issue.
I’m a softie I suppose. I always got a kick out of the kids in foreign lands that would be so easily amused about the most simple acts of kindness or games they played with GIs. It is the kids I think of and their mothers when there is a war/conflict going on.
The mothers are clearly skeptical because they know the truth that the US will most likely abandon them. The children are just innocents, not knowing the politics of the time.
Rest assured though, the children that remember will gather the skepticism that their mothers held and will remember how we abandoned them when they needed us the most to protect them.
Sometimes that is what war is all about on the micro level, protecting the innocents so they may live and be prosperous. Play in the streets without fear and go to the market as they wish.
As we all sit in the comfort of our own homes deciding their fate, by pushing a button, pulling a lever or putting a write-in, there should be random photos of Iraqi women and children on each ballot looking outward with fearful eyes asking us before we voted if we are going to abandon them.
Well? Are we?
But, JM, Iraq is their country and they need to step up to pressure their own leaders to stop the violence. The US troops are babysitters at this point. We have spent 4 years and billions of dollars and still Malaki and his band of merrymen cannot or will not assume more responsibility? When is enough, enough?
The best thing we can do is to SLOWLY withdraw and make it clear that we will no longer be their crutch. This mess was a mess before we got there but it is a bigger mess now because Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld all surged in without a plan for an exit.
I am afraid the way Bush is going about this new ’surge’ plan is just making more enemies in his own camp and is that really what the GOP wants at this moment in time?
The only reason that the Zionist had Bush suggest a ’surge’ is to keep the troops they have in Iraq { a ’surge’ is the opposite of a withdrawal }.
Had it not been for what the Zionist-Jews did to Lebanon, the world would have never seen inside the barbaric Zionist-Jew mind-set. Not only did the Zionist-Jews expose their true nature in the totally uncalled for and unprovoked attack on a peaceful country, but laid bare their murderous greed toward the helpless destitute Palestinians. The act of a US rush shipment of kid-killing cluster bombs for Israel to leave behind in Lebanon as Hezbollah was routing them gave the world’s stage a completely open view to compare against Zionist propaganda.
The Zionist-Jews and their rotten little country have never been able to recover from the world’s opinion based upon the open facts.
All of their carefully contrived “anti-Semitic Jew-hating” name-calling garbage flies into the face of their animal behavior.
They can not have it both ways.
They can’t claim wrongful persecution while acting-out the very behaviors for which they’re being held accountable.
When they bombed the Lighthouse in Lebanon Harbor, they failed to extinguish the light with which the world uses to see today.
Ed Friedemann
JM – and how many of those Iraqi women and children have died as a result of our invasion and occupation. As bad as Saddam was al-Maliki just might be even worse.
Somebody should have thought this through BEFORE he made the decision to invade.
No original thoughts on the matter Ben?
Is it easier to feed off what I right instead of coming up with your own thoughts on the matter?
Is it easier to find fault with my opinion and give it a twist of acid for a cocktail of controversy?
No, not playing the blame game.
That’s the liberal’s job.
right=write
writerdog,
Good point about trying to protect the infrastructure, so their daily lives can be more normal. But I wonder if even that is possible.
Insurgents have reportedly isolated Baghdad from the electric grid, by bombing the hi-voltage towers outside the city.
Electricity generation is down, because the U.S. stupidly installed nat gas turbines — and the nat gas supply isn’t adequate. Other fuels are being used, producing less electricity, and damaging the turbines.
Baghdad’s sewer system recently failed. Sewage was even flowing in some streets, people had to buy bottled water, where drinking water was contaminated.
It’s reported that about 600 of the municipal workers were killed by insurgents in the last 9 months. Body armor for the employees?
JM – you write a specious piece claiming that somehow we need to escalate to stop the violence and I respond in kind. Big deal.
Face it, your boy has created a mess over there. He needs to read the Baker/Hamilton report and change course. That is more likely to help those people than staying the same failed course.
When numerous Republicans cut ranks and vote for the resolution I hope Bush pays attention.
Trying to avoid responsibility for one’s actions. That’s the conservatives game.
Back when Truman was President he had a sign on his desk “The Buck Stops Here.” Bush has replaced it with “Not my responsibility.”
Get used to it – we WILL point fingers; HE caused this.
And wait until they learn about the oil Profit Sharing Agreements.
They’re going to be really “annoyed” (to be polite) that a large part of the control, and profits of their national treasure, oil, has been turned over to western companies.
That’s assuming of course that their country becomes stable enough that the oil companies can safely work there.
I see Ben. So my writing on a generality of truths that happen in any war is what made you jack-boot my thread opinion.
Some how you extracted escalation out of that thread. It was a philosophical view of a situation I’ve seen before. Ask anyone who has seen the aftermath of any war.
Of course, it’s hard to see from the comfort of an armchair I suppose.
Ooh! Jack-boot! Wow JM – did you make that up all by yourself?
My problem is that it has been policies that you have supported that have created this thing. And now you seem to think that changing those policies should be excluded because you think it will create chaos. News flash for you – we HAVE chaos now; chaos we have created and are making worse.
You are absolutely correct that there will be many victims due to our intervention. Those who embraced our invasion/occupation of their country are going to have real problems. But, we KNEW all this going in. But we did it anyway.
My point is that even MORE will die if we don’t change course. That is the horrible choice Bush has deliberately created.
BTW – I HAVE talked to people who have seen war and its aftermath.
JM, are you currently fighting over there? Then you’re in the comfort of your armchair.
Ben simply disagreed with you, and he was polite about it, instead of slinging insults, which you whine about but do yourself at times. If you can’t deal with opposing opinions, why are you here?
heh heh
RD, What insults did I sling? Or are you blinded by the innuendo Ben and his aspersions he cast on my opinion? :)
Talked to people eh Ben. It’s a lot different being in war than talking to someone about it.
Of course, using talking points as actual experience, I suppose talking points can trumph war experience as talking points don’t have any Conventions reigning in what they can do as far as destruction and mayhem. :)
RD,
My opinion was quite generic and could have been written for the Civil War or World War II. I only invoked the Iraq word once to put it into context.
Ben on the other hand wants to invoke a dead dictator, a Shiite Leader, Baker-Hamiliton, Bush and even Truman.
Talking points as he said.
My appeal was to the children and unless you’ve seen their faces and been surrounded by their innocence in a War zone, then rhetoric gets blinded by its own intentions.
Attack, sure then…anything for the innocent children.
If the boot fits, wear it.
If the only opinions that count in the debate over Iraq are those that come from war veterans, then the opinions of Bush, Cheney, Rove, Lott, Boehner, Frist, Hastert, Limbaugh, O’Reilly, Hannity, Buchanan, Kristol, Robertson, etc, are meaningless.
“Presidential hopeful Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., is among a handful of conservatives who have publicly broken with the president and oppose the surge.”
Brownback is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. Yes, he is opposing the “surge,” but when asked during a CNN interview last week if he would vote for the Senate resolution next week he said, “No.” Then he said many many more words that were all contradictory and confusing, but really said nothing more than no he wouldn’t support the resolution against Bush. He’ll march the partisan line behind the president who got us where we are. And Brownback thinks we aren’t smart enough to see that he says one thing and does another. I have had more than enough of that kind of politician. I hope Brownback is out of a job real soon!
Sen. Hagel of Nebraska has come out in favor of a drawdown. He was a tank commander in the Mekong Delta in 1968. I’m sure he saw all those faces JM.
Here’s a good example of JM logic–”there should be random photos of Iraqi women and children on each ballot looking outward with fearful eyes asking us before we voted if we are going to abandon them.”
Funny, JM. The Iraqi PEOPLE keep telling us to get the hell out.
It’s you and your ilk who think that the poor benighted citizens of this third world country need “protecting” by the United States.
Tell it to the 600,000 Iraqis who were protected to death by the American invasion.
The Iraqis want us out. The Americans want us out.
The only people that want to stay are Bush “dead enders” in their last throes like JM.
You can put the lipstick of “protecting them from themselves” on the imperialist pig of illegal invasion and occupation, but it’s still a pig.
BTW, JM, we can’t miss you until you leave like you said you were going to . . .
I thought Hagel was in the Infantry as a grunt. Was he one of those baby-killers as Kerry described when he testified before Congress? Or was he politically excluded as Kerry revised his history of what he said in 1971.
A quote from a Hagel Speech in Nov 2005 at Kansas State:
“What distinguishes America is not our power, for the world has known great power. It is America’s purpose and our commitment to making a better life for all people. That is the America the world needs to see. A wise, thoughtful and steady nation, worthy of its power, generous of spirit, and humble in its purpose.”
Hmm, did someone vomit?
Nope, my mistake, it was Capniska Amerikanski spewing forth more of his socialistic vomitary.
Here it is in black and white as if we needed to see it again–
I put forward the facts that both the Iraqis and the Americans overwhelmingly want US forces out now.
JM comes back with a cheap shot insult.
If that’s all ya got, at least make it funny.
No informational value and no entertainment value.
Typical.
JM is here to testify that no war atrocities took place in ten years in Vietnam by our side.
Damn, why didn’t they call you at the My Lai Massacre trial?
Who are you gonna believe, a right-winger who among many, many other unverifiable claims, says he was in country in Vietnam or the official courts-martial of 14 service men and the photographic proof?
“The My Lai Massacre (pronounced mee-lye) (Vietnamese: th?m sát M? Lai) was a massacre committed by U.S. soldiers on hundreds of unarmed Vietnamese civilians, mostly women and children, on March 16, 1968, in the hamlet of My Lai, during the Vietnam War.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai
That son-of-a-bitch Kerry. What kind of a man would come back after seeing atrocities and then testify that he saw them?
How about, a truthful one.
Heh, I almost forgot–in JM’s world, when we illegally invade and occupy a country to steal its oil, we do it “for its own good.”
When we stay and continue the violence, we stay to “protect defenseless Iraqi women and children.”
And when we kill 400-500 people (mainly women and children) in Vietnam, we did it because they had it coming and decent people don’t talk about it.
The United States is always right. Even when our government kills people for their oil, we’re still right.
Ah but CapnVomit,
Kerry accused all soldiers of committing atrocities, that would include Hagel.
But thanks for trying Commrade Amerikanski.
“Kerry accused all soldiers of committing atrocities, that would include Hagel.”
Kerry did not accuse ALL American soldiers of committing atrocities – that is just complete horseshit.
When atrocities are committed in war by Americans, it is incumbent upon us as a nation to treat them the same as we would if they were committed by the Japanese, the Viet Cong or the Iraqis. We cannot give a pass to Americans with excuses or we lose any pretense of the moral high ground.
My Lai or Abu Grahib – it does not matter – Americans must conduct themselves above reproach in war or in peace. When we don’t, we must suffer the consequences without attempting to rationalize the behaviors.
To excuse American mistakes only reinforces the world view that we place ourselves above the law and above all other nations.
Yes, Kerry’s extensive 4 month tour of Vietnam where he got three purple hearts, one including a rice pellet in his buttocks from an exploding rice cooker. Our hero. :)
Kerry was everywhere in Vietnam in those 4 mouths. From his PT boat he could see stuff that happened even before he got there and stuff after he left.
Wowsir, such vision.
Oh and Kerry apologized in later years of him accusing all GIs in Vietnam of atrocities. He knew when he said it he was wrong and by his own admission he was wrong.
So Capn Commrad Amerikanski what does your Pravda Manifesto tell you now?
“He knew when he said it he was wrong and by his own admission he was wrong.”
Provide a link, JM, I don’t believe that this is true.
And he never accused ALL GI’s of committing war crimes.
“To excuse American mistakes only reinforces the world view that we place ourselves above the law and above all other nations.”
True Clarkie, however looking the other way when the Middle Eastern Countries, or other UN Nations do this very thing is atrocious as well.
We should not only be hard on the US of A, there. That is dishonest. The UN has to come out against the likes of HAMAS and Hizbullah, and the crap that Iran and N. Korea are doing in their “altercations”.
The Dem party and the UN seem to make a big deal out of Abu Grahib, but do little about all the bombing in the Middle East.
I have heard PLENTY of people condem the US of less that an IOTA of occurance, however the other countries get a pass and then level fingers at the US.
“Kerry did not accuse ALL American soldiers of committing atrocities – that is just complete horseshit.”
He sure did there Clarkie. He did it it the speedh that had the “in a manner of Gengis Kahn” that he made to the Seante in testimoney. Not only did he say it, but it is in the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD!
“The Dem party and the UN seem to make a big deal out of Abu Grahib, but do little about all the bombing in the Middle East.”
Jeez, Asbestos, I have yet to see anything where a Democrat or the UN has excused terrorism or war atrocities.
I must have missed that….
“Jeez, Asbestos, I have yet to see anything where a Democrat or the UN has excused terrorism or war atrocities.”
How about the Democratic Party condeming Isreal? OR how about Jimmy Carter and his book of revisionist history. They sure do not condem the Palestinians, and there seemed to be a lot of blaming of Isreal from the Dems with nailing Hizbullah in Lebannon. There were calls form multiple Dems in Congress to make Isreal stop.
“one including a rice pellet in his buttocks from an exploding rice cooker”
A rice cooker? Sure JM, sure.
***JOHN KERRY, SPEECH AGAINSTThe entire text of the John Kerry speech…
VIETNAM WAR
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry, 1971 to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations April 23, 1971
I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit – the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.
They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine’s in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriots and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.
We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out….
In our opinion and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.
We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.
We found most people didn’t even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone in peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Viet Cong, North Vietnamese or American.
We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by the flag, and blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism – and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.
We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.
We watched the United States falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against “oriental human beings.” We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. We watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the hill for reoccupation by the North Vietnamese. We watched pride allow the most unimportant battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn’t lose, and we couldn’t retreat, and because it didn’t matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point, and so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 81s and Fire Base 6s, and so many others.
Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.
Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn’t have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can’t say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won’t be, and these are his words, “the first President to lose a war.”
We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?….We are here in Washington to say that the problem of this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything that we are trying as human beings to communicate to people in this country – the question of racism which is rampant in the military, and so many other questions such as the use of weapons; the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions and using that as justification for a continuation of this war when we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions; in the use of free fire zones, harassment interdiction fire, search and destroy missions, the bombings, the torture of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam. That is what we are trying to say. It is part and parcel of everything.
An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz put it to me very succinctly. He told me how as a boy on an Indian reservation he had watched television and he used to cheer the cowboys when they came in and shot the Indians, and then suddenly one day he stopped in Vietnam and he said, “my God, I am doing to these people the very same thing that was done to my people,” and he stopped. And that is what we are trying to say, that we think this thing has to end.
We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We’re here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They’ve left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country….
We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done and all that they can do by this denial is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission – to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war, to pacify our own hearts, to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so when thirty years from now our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say “Vietnam” and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.
Of course, liberals condemn bombings by Hezbollah, Hamas etc.
The difference is that we can’t really do much about that. We don’t ELECT the people who carry out terrorist attacks by Hezbollah.
Abu Ghraib and My Lai and Gitmo and School of Practical and Applied Torture and Terrorism (School of the Americas) et al. are our responsibility because the gov’t is acting in our name and spending our tax dollars to do it.
Just because we criticize the US for war crimes and demand accountability in no way means that we “don’t care” about war crimes by other groups.
It’s just that we don’t vote for them, duh.
ASBESTOS – perhaps you choose to not notice that israel was targeting CIVILIANS in Lebanon. Hospitals, power grid, etc. Hizbollah, according to Isreli figures, targeted military targets in Israel. This is shown by the fact that, according to Israel, most Israeli casualties were soldiers. The vast majority of Lebanese casualties from Israeli precision-guided munitions were civilians.
Especially the cluster bombs that continue to kill and maim civilians to this day.
Wow, thanks for posting that, Clark.
You can see when you read the whole thing–not the bits and pieces the Swiftboat Liars used to discredit Kerry–that he in no way says that “every American soldier” personally committed a war crime, but that the entire war is in a sense a war crime.
It was unnecessary, it was based on falsehoods, and it makes things worse not better.
Pretty much like Iraq.
Now maybe JM will post Kerry’s speech where he “apologized” or even just a link . . .
Yeah, right, don’t hold your breath.
I didn’t want to post the whole thing for space/scroll reasons, but I figured that the Cons would make the “censorship” accusation.
Reading through the speech, however, I was struck by the Iraqi parallels.
It’s funny how little we have learned over the years.
You can read the record for yourself in the Congressional Record:
Thursday, April 22, 1971, Pages 179-210. Were all those pages in there WS Clark? :)
By the way, the group which Kerry belonged was later found to have been full of people that never served in Vietnam, including those who made up tape recorded versions of attrocities in Vietnam. They may have been in the military, but never left the States or were assigned to non combat units.
On “Meet the Press” in 1971, Kerry said he believes he himself had committed “atrocities” simply by engaging in some of the tactics common among U.S. forces in Vietnam – firing into free-fire zones, where anything that moved was a target.
This as was later found out was similar to the basis of those so-called eye witnesses that Kerry utilized. That there were a lot of could of,should of, maybe it happened type of statements.
Perhaps shooting a water buffalo was Kerry’s idea of an attrocity.:)
It’s funny how much is conveniently revised over the years WS Clark.
I figured that you would attack the record of the speech, JM. I took the entire post from a FREE REPUBLIC page.
Here’s the link…..
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/913184/posts
Nice try, JM.
By the way, I am still waiting for the “Kerry apologized” link.
Well it looks as if the Iraq’s are “getting the message”. Here Al Sadhr is losing his protection form Al Maliki, and Al Sadhr has also let the 30 members of the Iraq government that he controlled to go back to work.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++”ASBESTOS – perhaps you choose to not notice that israel was targeting CIVILIANS in Lebanon.”
THAT is what I M talking about there CLarkie. Isreal was targeting ROCKET LAUNCHERS that Hizbullah PUT in those areas. What a loser you are. Parroting the Democrap talking points.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Hizbollah, according to Isreli figures, targeted military targets in Israel”
Un, Yeah Right, what about those 13,000 rockets and missles that were launched into Isreal by Hizbullah. Clarkie you are a dumb idealouge asshole who lies.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“The vast majority of Lebanese casualties from Israeli precision-guided munitions were civilians.”
AGAIN from Hizbullah locating them NEST TO CIVILIANS. HOW COME THAT is not viewed of a war crime? I mean the locating of rocket and missle launchers in Civilian areas? What did you think Isreal was gonna do. You put a missle in a civilian area for only 2 reasons: to protect it, or to purposefully invite collateral damage …ON PURPOSE for propaganda. ANd you just bought Hizbullah hook line and sinker, or You love and support terrorists.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Posted by: WSClark | January 21, 2007 at 04:48 PM
“Jeez, Asbestos, I have yet to see anything where a Democrat or the UN has excused terrorism or war atrocities.”"
I guess YOU ARE excusing terrorists and excusing atrocities.
Thanks for posting Kerry’s thing here clarkie. You obviosuly did not read it very well:
“These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”
Seems like he WAS blaming a lot of soldiers there in an “every day to day” operations.
Sorry Clark, it was Ben’s clueless post.
You might want to work on that reading comprehension, Asbestos, the posts you are referring to are not my posts.
If you are suggesting that Ben Huie’s posts are supporting terrorism or excusing atrocities; well, you’re way off the mark. You missed the point that almost all of Israel’s casualties wwere soldiers, whereas all of Lebanon’s deaths were civilians.
Anyway, your questions should be addressed to Dr. Huie.
Oh, your absolutely right WS Clark, Kerry never did apologize for the false testimony he presented before Congress.
My mistake, Kerry never apologized for submitting false testimony. :)
I’m such a bad person for not providing a link for the no apology from Kerry.
I see my subterfuge worked then. heh heh heh
I havne’t been following this thread closely…but I just saw on the news that they’re going to insert the Kurdish troops into this mess.
What the f are they thinking!
“Day to day basis with awareness of officers” does NOT mean everyone everywhere.
“A lot” is not “all,” Assbuttstos, duh. Looks like YOU’RE the one with the reading comprehension problem.
*****
JM brings in several NEW allegations–that some of Kerry’s winter soldiers never served in Vietnam etc. etc.–but not only fails to support those statements with links (i.e., documentation) still HASN’T DOCUMENTED his first set of allegations–that Kerry “apologized” or the ridiculous rice cooker cheap shot.
Funny how the CONs are all for “supporting the troops” unless the troop in question is named John Kerry.
“These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.”
Hmmmmm, I am not quite sure that I see in this quote where Kerry accused ALL soldiers of committing atrocities. Furthermore, he was saying that incidents happened on a daily basis that were officers were aware of and mostly likely directed.
I lived through that era, Asbestos. I had friends die in Vietnam. I had friends that were horrible fucked up by their involvement in Vietnam. I had friends that never really got over killing civilians in ‘Nam. I had friends tell me that the rule was “shoot first, ask questions later.” I had friends tell me that they knew that they had killed innocent people in ‘Nam and that fact weighed heavily on them.
You can make any comment you want – Vietnam was a disaster ad the country asked our drafted soldiers to bear the burden rather than lay it on the politicians that supported the war.
Nobody said you were a “bad person” for lying about Kerry, JM.
We said you’re an asshole.
Thanks for confirming our opinion of you.
“I figured that you would attack the record of the speech, JM. I took the entire post from a FREE REPUBLIC page.”Posted by: WSClark | January 21, 2007 at 05:35 PM
Attack eh? Hmmm, I point out the pages of the Congressional Record and you use a Web Page.
I apologize for that attack because I referenced the original source from Congressional Records. :)
JM, you’re so full of shit, you squish when you walk.
Give us a link or shut up.
Preferrably, shut up.
“You missed the point that almost all of Israel’s casualties wwere soldiers, whereas all of Lebanon’s deaths were civilians.”
Sorry DUde but YOU and BEN both missed the point.
First, Isreal was not fighting the Lebanese army, so there would be NO casualties for Lebanon Military.
Second, Hizbullah is NOT a MILITARY or GOVERNMENTAL force for Lebanon.
Third, ISREAL TOLD the CIVILIANS where they were going to strike nest and that they should leave that area. HOw many times did any Middle Eastern Nation OTHERN THAN ISREAL TOLD the country to stop, get out, and we are coming? NONE!!! THe US does the same thing.
To give moral equivalency to Hizbullah and argue in favor of Kerry and his statments and actions, illustrates the problem here. LACK OF COHERENT THOUGHT on your parts.
I read in the pages of the Congressional Record that JM was court-martialed for having sex with Rush Limbaugh.
See, I “referenced” the Congressional Record, so that makes it true.
What a maroon . . .
ANd JM is correct, that website leaves out the accuzations of Kerry blanketing the SOldiers as war criminals. You missed that part did you.
That is the problem when you get all your info from a leftwinger website.
Hey WS Clark,
Let me clue you in, I not only lived during those times and I was in the miitary during those times and in South East Asia. :)
I cannot begin to tell you how many times I had to listen to pure total BS from out and out liars who said they were in Vietnam and did this and that.
The moment you question them about their unit or who was in command at the time, they suddenly draw a memory blank. They even get locations wrong and times when certain battles happened. You try to pin them down and ask what conditions they got that certain ribbon on their chest and their story changes every time you ask them.
There were many investigations on both active duty soldiers wearing un-awarded ribbons as those who supposably served under combat conditions. There were unfortunately hundreds of liars back then, wanting their moment of glory even if they had to lie.
And yes, this including active duty liars.
Dang, that is funny JM!
Do you REALLY think that the Freepers would leave out a single freaking word that would incriminate Kerry?
I mean really.
Would a FREEPER give a break to a Democrat?
Yeah, and George W Bush has a secret crush on Nancy Pelosi.
Since this is really about the surge I am reposting the fact that it is already working:
Well it looks as if the Iraq’s are “getting the message”. Here Al Sadhr is losing his protection form Al Maliki, and Al Sadhr has also let the 30 members of the Iraq government that he controlled to go back to work.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Poor Capn Amerikanski doesn’t know how to search the Congressional Record. :(
You said yourself, JM, that you were NOT in Vietnam. That was your statement – you said that you served in Thailand.
And I really don’t need you to clue me in on anythig JM.
I am still waiting for your links.
Try the Google. Here’s the link….
http://www.google.com/webhp
Wow, WS Clark and Capn AmeriKanski are losing their perspective…
Starting to curse, accusing me of deeds found in the Congressional Record which they don’t know how to search btw.
My my,how quickly they dematerialize. :)
You’re not going to melt down again tonight, are you JM?
Yes, that’s right Thailand.
You know it’s a lie when a guy in uniform starts talking about Vietnam and he doesn’t even have the Vietnam Campaign Ribbon on his chest.
Of course, WS Clark, you wouldn’t know these types of things not being in the military during those times. :)
Looks like you are melting down WS Clark. When you get defeated on the issues you start doing the Liberal two step:
Denial DenialBS BSDenial DenialCurse Word Curse Word
:)
“That is the problem when you get all your info from a leftwinger website.”
A left wing website like Free Republic?
Man, I need some of THAT stuff you’re smoking – it makes my stash look like oregano.
Dang, JM, you are a really funny guy! Are you related to Stephen Colbert?
You are just playing a right wing ditto head, aren’t you?
“ISREAL TOLD the CIVILIANS where they were going to strike nest and that they should leave that area” – and then they bombed refugee convoys. And they blockaded the country so nobody could flee the free-fire zone.
“Of course, WS Clark, you wouldn’t know these types of things not being in the military during those times.”
No, JM, I never was drafted, I drew a 202 in the lottery. I did not have any deferments, unlike Cheney, Lott, Buchanan, Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly, DeLay, et al.
I also did not have a Daddy that got me moved three years up the list for enlistment in TANG despite barely making a passing grade in the tests.
Just out of curiousity, JM, why didn’t you volunteer for duty in Vietnam?
“and then they bombed refugee convoys. And they blockaded the country so nobody could flee the free-fire zone.”
Revisionist and a lie there Ben Hui Beluie. You support Hizbullah’s talking points on that little war caused by terrorists invading Lebannon? That would Be Hizbullah out of Syria. Now Syria has got the point of what Hizbullah is, and they are trying to get them out of their country.
For a man that is supposedly learned, you mind is not open and only then to liberal BS concerning world events.
“Just out of curiousity, JM, why didn’t you volunteer for duty in Vietnam?”
IN order to get expect an answer from that Clarkie, I think you need to state YOUR postion on why YOU did not serve, before you question someone else.
“IN order to get expect an answer from that Clarkie, I think you need to state YOUR postion on why YOU did not serve, before you question someone else.”
That is really easy, Asbestos. First of all, JM is touting his service record and denigrating Kerry’s, even though Kerry volunteered for ‘Nam and JM did not.
As for why I did not serve? Easy – I was not a hypocrit – I drew a 202 in the lottery. I was actively anti-war as was a large portion of the population in general in 1971. The portion of the draft elgible people that were against the war was over 90%.
If I was actively against the war, why would I enlist and volunteer to serve in ‘Nam.
And before you call me a draft dodger, I was 1-A – had I drawn a low number in the lottery, I would have been drafted – no deferments.
By the way, Asbestos, why aren’t you serving in Iraq?
WS Clark,
I was a volunteer for Vietnam. Guys in my unit went to Germany, Clark AFB PI, Hickam Air Field, Hawaii, Udorn,Thailand and as I recall 2 went to Vietnam.
When you get orders in the military it is a good idea to obey them. :)
I think the number of the form in the AF at that time was a 301, could be mistaken. We affectionally called it a “Dream Sheet.”
BTW, Captain AmerikanskiIf you want more proof on the Vietnam Veterans against the War, I have a link for 22,000+ FBI files.
Also have a video and the transcript on a retired military man who confessed lieing about his participation in atrocities. Meaning, he didn’t commit any attrocities, but did serve as a combat soldier in Vietnam.
Also, have a link (if I can find it again) on the infamous story about how Vietnamese enemy were thrown out of helicopters to get confessions. The two warrent officers that lieed about it never got convicted because they were out of the military by the time CID invdestigated it. Another military urban legend. :)
And btw WS Clark,
If I ever met Kerry I would go right up to him and call him a liar for what he said and did.
“That is really easy, Asbestos. First of all, JM is touting his service record and denigrating Kerry’s, even though Kerry volunteered for ‘Nam and JM did not.”
Hey buddy, Kerry was the one that sold himself on his “Service Record” in a Presidential Campaign. That means OPEN SEASON, as he stepped into the public discussion as a Public Person. JM did not aspire to the Presiendcy, and therefore had NO CAMPAIGN on his record. Your little childish arguments are really frustrating … and sad. Such as below:
“By the way, Asbestos, why aren’t you serving in Iraq?”
Too Old. They don’t take people my age.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“If I was actively against the war, why would I enlist and volunteer to serve in ‘Nam.”
Fine, that is your right to expression. I don’t agree with it, but you have the right without me denigrating you on that. So NONE of my personal criticism of you would encroach that.
OH and BTW this is about the “SUIRGE”, and apparently it is working so here is my post again:
Since this is really about the surge I am reposting the fact that it is already working:
Well it looks as if the Iraq’s are “getting the message”. Here Al Sadhr is losing his protection form Al Maliki, and Al Sadhr has also let the 30 members of the Iraq government that he controlled to go back to work.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
I am no fan of John Kerry, JM, but I do find it humorous that the right wingers get so bent out of shape about him, while giving GWB a pass.
George was moved three years up the list for TANG and barely passed his entry tests. He noted on his enlistment form that he did NOT want to be deployed overseas, yet the wingnuts act like the guy was a war hero. His Daddy got him a National Guard position, as was common for rich boys in the ’60’s, yet you folks denigrate Kerry and direct love and kisses towards your boy.
So, just out of curiousity, JM, would you go right up to GWB and call him a liar if you met HIM?
So Asbestos, did YOU serve in ‘Nam? Did you serve in the military?
Clarkie, why the hell is it NOT OK to rake Kerry over the coals on his military record for Republicans, and it is Perfectly FINE for you to denigrate Bush’s military Service record?
I can’t wait to hear this response. You constantly gave me and JM hell and asked us about our service, well, turn that table on your argument, let’s see if YOU get any more clarity of your blinding perception truned on yourself.
This is not about Kerry it is about the SURGE and I will post my previous post again:
OH and BTW this is about the “SUIRGE”, and apparently it is working so here is my post again:
Since this is really about the surge I am reposting the fact that it is already working:
Well it looks as if the Iraq’s are “getting the message”. Here Al Sadhr is losing his protection form Al Maliki, and Al Sadhr has also let the 30 members of the Iraq government that he controlled to go back to work.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
Too young for Nam, too old for Iraq and Afy.
Why does that matter?
Clarkie, why the hell is it NOT OK to rake Kerry over the coals on his military record for Republicans, and it is Perfectly FINE for you to denigrate Bush’s military Service record?
I can’t wait to hear this response. You constantly gave me and JM hell and asked us about our service, well, turn that table on your argument, let’s see if YOU get any more clarity of your blinding perception truned on yourself.
Well, Asbestos and JM, without expressing YOUR opinion of Kerry’s record, why is it that you see a flaw in the man’s service?
For starters, you can’t put yourself in for a Purple Heart, so Kerry was put in three times by a medical service man for his three Purple Hearts. He put in for service in ‘Nam after enlisting in the Navy.
So what is is about his service that pisses you off?
If you are beyond the age of service, Asbestos, then you KNOW that getting a National Guard position guanteed that you would not see service in ‘Nam. That was understood in the Sixties and early Seventies. If you could not get a deferment, then the next best thing was NG service.
You know that, I know that and GWB knew that.
Let’s not pretend.
WS Clark,
I don’t know anything about Bush’s record in the ANG.
If you truly are the age you say you are, you would have to be either dead or drugged out not to know what happened in the Reserves and Guard units during those times.
After Vietnam wound down, Guard Units basically just disintegrated. People left without letting anyone know or had Unit admins arrange the paperwork for their release.
Heck, I remember a guy who couldn’t get a VA loan on his house because he didn’t get a proper DD214 when he left the guard. He said was too afraid to go back and get it redone. heh
He did anyway and nothing happened.
So maybe Bush sort of sneaked out the backdoor when Vietnam was winding down? Yeah, him and thousands of others did too.
“So maybe Bush sort of sneaked out the backdoor when Vietnam was winding down?”
The war was hardly winding down 1972. Regardless of what anyone says, the man was AWOL in 1972.
Had he been a Democrat, the wingnuts would be calling for his execution as a deserter during war time.
You know it, I know it and the whole world knows it.
WS Clarkie Clarkie Clarkie
The Nam war had been winding down by 72 for sure. Vietnamization or whatever it was called, was implemented by Nixon a year or two earlier, which meant more S. Nam troops were taking over for U.S. Troops. Many U.S. troops were sent home.
I remember specifically in 1972 my cousin was relieved because the draft numbers had gone down in the size of the drawing, which meant he would probably not get drafted because of the low number of draft numbers.
Heck by 1973, the Paris Peace Accords had started and combat operations were suspended. Everyone was told pretty much to stand down in regards to Nam.
And I assume the phrase you used,”Regardless of what anyone says, the man was AWOL in 1972.”
means no matter what anyone proves to you or shows you an official discharge, you’ll continue with your hardheaded “I’m right and everyone else is wrong.” rhetoric.
Believe in your own revisionist fairy tales WS Clark. Pleasant dreams…
Clarkie, why the hell is it NOT OK to rake Kerry over the coals on his military record for Republicans, and it is Perfectly FINE for you to denigrate Bush’s military Service record?
I can’t wait to hear this response. You constantly gave me and JM hell and asked us about our service, well, turn that table on your argument, let’s see if YOU get any more clarity of your blinding perception truned on yourself.
Well, JM, defend your man’s desertion. The author of Donnesbury has offered $10K to ANYONE that served with Bush during ‘72 that can vouch for Bush’ attendance in TANG or AANG unit exercises.
So far, no takers.
Like I said, if he (Bush) were a Democrat, you folks would want him to be executed.
Kerry served in ‘Nam, yet YOU PEOPLE denigrate everything he has ever done – but you give GWB a pass.
So, why the hypocrisy?
Already answered, Asbestos. Why the repost?
WS Clarkie Clarkie
There are no attendance rolls in the military unless you are in basic training or advanced training immediately after that. When you get to a permanent party base you are pretty much on your own as far as accountability. Pilots were usually on call and if they weren’t in a ready unit, they could be anywhere on the base.
Officers were well known to skip out on events even when ordered by the Commander. Medics were the worst.
So, I would say the $10,000 bet was pretty safe. Heck I can’t even account for my own whereabouts in 1972 except maybe for a promotion test exam I took once during that year.
“Kerry served in ‘Nam, yet YOU PEOPLE denigrate everything he has ever done – but you give GWB a pass.”
No answer, eh, JM?
Instead of focusing on Kerry lets look at one of the sponsors of the Senate resolution – Hagel. Another VietNam vet.
WS Clark likes beating a dead horse ad nauseum. Him, Cosmos and Capn Amerika have that common trait.
I guess that means you can’t answer the question, eh, JM?
I guess that means I don’t like mixed questions eh WSClark….but here you go
I have no objection of what kerry did or didn’t do in Nam. None. I find it curious that he did all of this in four months, 3 purple hearts and a Silver Star. Even Green Berets I’ve met didn’t get medal accumulation at that fast of rate.
What I do object about Kerry is what he did after he got back to the states and that lieing piece of crap statement he made before Congress, using false testimony of so-called Vietnam Vets who witnessed attrociites. Those statements have been largely disounted or discredit as based on serendipity or out and out falsification of facts and time chronology.
I already told you what I thought about Bush’s time in the guard. People left during that time like flies, officially and unofficially. Records were lost, no records were made.
Heck, I almost had to repeat training at a tech school because they lost my paperwork. They also lost my medical records, my finance records and my personnel records. Lost records back before the computer age happened a lot.
Get over it.
“Get over it.”
Like I said, JM, you are willing to give GWB a pass but you throw out all kinds of stuff about Kerry.
And you wonder why no one gives you the benefit of the doubt on this blog….
How are you figuring I”m giving Bush a pass on his service?
Because I don’t know and cannot know of his service record in 1972?
And for the record, you don’t have a clue either of the 1972 record of Bush.
It’s just conjecture.
So when I address Kerry’s 1971 big lie to Congress in 1971 what have you to say to that?
And who appointed you Judge of the Blog?
People who don’t give me the benefit of the doubt are the ones are your side WS Clark (Capn Amerika and Cosmos.) The ones that keep changing the subject instead of acknowledging what I write.
I have no reason to lie on this blog. And to let you in on a big secret I voted for Clinton on his first term. Yeah I lied about voting republican 100 percent of the time, sue me.
You are just one hard-headed conspiracy theorist. Anyone agreeing with you try to wear down by posting BS and Fairtales or word questions where they can’t be right even if they answer them as you wish.
Once they answer them as you wish you’ll go off on another tangent.
You questioned my service and why I didn’t volunteer for Vietnam. I told you I did volunteer for Vietnam.
Did I get an acknowledgement from you?
Noooooooo…You go off on another WS Clark Tangent of conspiracy.
If you are not going to acknowledge what I write, then why should I bother even reading what you write?
Now you are just feeling sorry for yourself, JM. Don’t start playing the victim or Golf Nutz will get after you.
Here is the complete testimony of John Kerry’s Congressional Testimony as reprinted in The National Review (a rabidly right-wing publication).
It doesn’t really vary to any degree from W.S. Clark’s posted version above.
http://www.nationalreview.com/document/kerry200404231047.asp
I challenge the JM who made the following false charge that “Kerry accused all soldiers of committing atrocities, that would include Hagel”
(Posted by: JM | January 21, 2007 at 04:33 PM) to find a single instance in Kerry’s speech in which he says this.
BTW, JM, what is sex with Rush Limbaugh like? I referenced the Congressional Record . . .
Hagel seemed quite supportive of his Senate colleague Kerry n the news shows today.
When everybody in America was trying to avoid service in Vietnam, JM claims he COULDN’T GET IN.
Thank God, he has no trouble collecting his tax payer funded pension, you know, the one he wants to deny (social security) to the rest of us because it’s SOCIALISM.
Surge?
Won’t work. Everybody but bush and his few remaining followers know this. And bush and the followers are now trying to sell the idea that if it doesn’t work it is the fault of the American people for not having enough resolve!
That would be like if I broke an expensive vase in a museum and then blamed every body else because the vase could not be repaired. It’s their fault dammit for not believing in me enough!
You remaining bushbots? I don’t get it. Really I do not. I think the man could set the Great lakes on fire, lose the Washington Monument and break Hoover dam and you wouldn’t change.
Oh and JM? What you say you would walk up and say to Kerry? I’m no great Kerry fan.
But I cannot post what I would say to bush if could! Of course it wouldn’t matter. He cares not a bit about America or Americans much less what they think. He is a plastic supid miserable failure.
I see that Capn Vomit puked up some more of his rhetoric.
J R
I don’t care if they send FBI after me, I mean what I say about Kerry.
He lied in 1971 and continues a lie. I will call him a liar to his face.
When you know the truth, you can believe in what you say. :)
Here you go Capn Vomit.
But one example of falsified testimony admitted by one of his fellow VVAW members.
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=PitkinKLR
http://www.wintersoldier.com/video/pitkinklr.wmv
First one is a transcript, in case you can’t see the video.
Any proof that Pitkin isn’t the liar?
I am sorry for you JM.
You post all hours of the day and night. It seems that you have no life at all.
After your performance yesterday, I had assumed that any remaining pride you might have would cause you to withdraw for awhile. Or perhaps change your nic.
I do not wish to add to whatever pain it is that drives you, and so from now on I will only refute you in facts and not engage you personally.
I think that you should seriously consider seeking some professional help. I sense in you a great pain that cannot be mitigated by venting here.
So I see.
I am demanded by Capn Vomit and W S Clark to provide answers.
When I do supply the answers, then I am condemned by the likes of you J R for supplying the answers that are demanded.
I am retired J R, twice. Once from civilian life and once from the military. I have lots of free time.
Since you won’t acknowledge the answers I give here or do any investigation for yourself to find the truth, then maybe I shouldn’t supply any answers.
And Yes, I do get up in the middle of the night sometimes because of a back injury I received while on active duty. It keeps me awake sometimes. No, it wasn’t combat related, just some clumsy footwork on my part.
JM–
I didn’t ask you about a few winter soldiers that may have exaggerated their claims.
I asked you about your charge that Kerry said . . . well, hell, let me go up and cut and paste it.
Yes, here it is (again): “Kerry accused all soldiers of committing atrocities.”
And while you’re at it, can you document a single lie that Kerry told in his Senate Testimony (other than he was perhaps lied to himself by a few of the many witnesses involved in the Winter Soldiers program)?
Capt. “Vomit” may make you feel better, but it’s not winning you any points among any sentient beings.
How about backing up your big mouth for a change?
That is, if you can.
JM writes, “I am demanded by Capn Vomit and W S Clark to provide answers.
“When I do supply the answers, then I am condemned . . .”
Wrong, JM. You provide links to shit that nobody asked you about or cares about.
Although you did have to admit that you were just flat out LYING when you said that Kerry “apologized.”
You have plenty to apologize for, but let’s see, it takes a big man to say he’s sorry, and that apparently is not you.
“You have plenty to apologize for, but let’s see, it takes a big man to say he’s sorry, and that apparently is not you.”
Oh, I see. That’s how you justify writing:
“I read in the pages of the Congressional Record that JM was court-martialed for having sex with Rush Limbaugh.
See, I “referenced” the Congressional Record, so that makes it true.
What a maroon . . .”Posted by: CapnAmerica | January 21, 2007 at 06:02 PM
Capn Vomit,
Your credibility is below zero.
No one believes anything you write,not one person on this blog.
How does it feel to be all alone and being a mental pervert.
It feels a lot better than not being able to back up a damn thing I write.
But getting you to admit you lied about Kerry’s apology was a major coup.
Usually you just change the subject when ask to provide evidence . . . exactly as you did in your last post.
What a maroon . . .
“Kerry accused all soldiers of committing atrocities.”
Can you back that up by what Kerry actually said? Because I read the entire thing twice, and I didn’t see that anywhere.
If you can’t do it, be a man and admit you were wrong.
Capn Vomit has stolen Bugs Bunny’s phrase, “What a maroon.”
Which explains a lot about his character; brain of bugs bunny and body of Elmer Fudd.
Yup, he can’t do it, and he’s not a man . . .
You talking again Capn Fudd?
Okay, since JM refuses to back up his “factual” assertions, and furthermore refuses to admit when he has been caught lying, I hearby christen him JM = Jerk Moron.
If we can’t shut him up, maybe we can at least get him to think about what he can back up with evidence and what he can’t.
Since Capn Amerikanski can’t help himself making moronic assertions and making up stories, I hereby give him title as
Captain Fudd
The clueless cartoon character on Bugs Bunny cartoons.
In the interest of historical accuracy on cartoons and cartoon programs on KAKE TV: There was an Elmer Fudd on the Bugs Bunny cartoons. There was a Freddy Fudd (the late Henry Harvey) who was the host of a program of WB cartoons. There was a Captain Bill (Bill McClain) who at times co-hosted cartoon programs with Henry Harvey.
But, I am failing to remember a Captain Fudd. I am wondering if this is a type of memory double-exposure – putting things on top of one another, that don’t go together. I notice as I age, I am prone to do that more.
Somebody hand JM a shovel. He obviously has a need to keep digging.
He posts outrageous lies and mistatements, then backs them up with links that DO NOT address the crap he posted.
This is typical blog behavior on his part, and what pushed him to melt down this weekend. Your performance will not be forgotten any time soon.
JM, dude, why is it so hard for you to acknowledge when you’ve been busted?
Is your need to be “right” so important that you dont care how big of an ass you are as long as you are “right”?
And you are the first to whine about civility on the blog, then when busted, the “captain vomit”, etc. come spewing out on the screen.
And, the last I heard “they did it first” isnt an excuse that carries much validity past kindergarten.
Why dont you go to freeperville, or little green footballs, or some place where they will buy your bullshit?
Cause we aint buyin’ here. We can get bullshit wholesale over at freeperville.
And asbestos, why are you not on the lawrence journal blog like usual? Get run off over there, so you decided to come over here?
Heheheheh. As a reader of both, I see the wichita folks are as adept at handing you your ass as the lawrence folk.
Remember boys, when you find yourself in a hole, the first rule of holes is STOP DIGGING!!!!!
Posting more whiney bullshit does not make your lies and mistruths any more believable.
Oh I see ksfarmgrll a person can be called moron, dumbass, maroon, having sex with rush limbaugh and all sorts of other names and just has to take it.
So I dish it out and what happens? You liberals come out of the closet (heh) and start complaining I’m calling names.
Where were you when I was was being called names, cursed at and other things?
Hmmm?
Typical hypocritical Liberal.
use their own methods on them and they start whining.
I’m not whining JM. I am pointing out that you are projecting YOUR behavior on everyone else. You whine about civility but you are one of the least civil persons here.
And when proven wrong? You just lash out.
It’s really easy. Just say “guess I was wrong”.
But you would rather polish your image as blog ass.
Whatever. Keep posting dude. Your credibility drops with every click of the “post” button. I bet you cant even see light down in that hole.
Can I sharpen your shovel?
Then make a comment about Capn America, WS Clark, Cosmos and J R on their behavior.
Why are you singling me out?
When those of your own ideology do this crap every day and you let them get away with it.
JM you started the lashing out with your 1:43 post.
Is anyone who disagrees with you a liberal who is badmouthing you?
You think you can post lies, damned lies, and statistics without disagreement? You dont get by now that we are fact checking you, reading what you post, and pointing out the glaring errors, lies and idiocy? So you just keep posting more?
I’ve said it before, bring your “A” game in here and you wont get much abuse.
And disagreement is not abuse.
You need to cowgirl up JM.
JM, I like it when you call names and get mean.Great fun, it is.KFG, tell us about the meltdown.Any talk of melting is welcome right now.
heee heee hee Tracy.
It isnt going to melt here today either.
I cant remember the thread, but I think it was on Saturday, JM provided a SPECTACULAR show of fireworks. He was filled with “sound and fury, signifying nothing”.
As you said, it was great fun, but I think watching that show once is too much. It was sad and funny at the same time. I think he could actually be dangerous. I wouldnt want him to show at a meetup and be packin’ heat.
heheheheheheheheh
Maybe the military brass didnt LET him go to viet nam for fear he would be fragged by his comrads tired of him alternatly bloviating and whining.
Hey JM, are you bipolar? All of a sudden, that would make a lot of sense. With some mpd thrown in?
hehehehehehehehehhehehehehhehehehehe
Okay, I can see you won’t support me, but you will support the foul mouths of the world.
Enjoy your company.
Where’s woody?He get tired of the liberal love fest and find other sheeples to irritate.(sorry about using the ’s’ word)
Support you in what?
TRACY
Ol’ JM has been on a more or less continuous eruption since about noon Saturday.
It started out on a Kline thread. There he showed up and blew up did a lot ot talking about throwing up. Since then the opens and the global warming thread have been ground zero locations for an ongoing demonstration that closely resemble bad moments from Linda Blair.
Take a walk JM. Get some air. Otherwise I’m gonna give YOU a new nic.
“sideshow”
Okay ksfarmgrrl impugn my service in the military. This sounds all to familiar.
Okay J R, you can call me anything you wish. Be a fine example for your son on how to name-call.
And while you’re at it, go bash someone else who has lost a grandchild to abortion. Grind their face in it, it will make you feel oh so superior on your talking points.
I’m right here, tracy. Thank you for caring.
“impugn my service in the military. This sounds all to familiar.”
Yep, VERY familiar.
Why Swiftie? Because I used words in the English language?
Here we go again with another Liberal Conspiracy theory.
Bush wasn’t AWOL. He deserted.
Right-wing extremists like JM and ASBESTOS (another wingnut loser from the LJW coming over here – hopefully his stay is as short as Arminius’ was) are among the greatest threats to the United States today.
These people gladly put their fucked up ‘ideology’ (if hatred and willful ignorance can really be called that) ahead of everything – the interests of the US, the Constitution of the US, even human life. In my book, that’s terrorist-like fanaticism.
Why? Because we did such a good job of it a couple of years ago – and you continue to refer to us!
Ah right-wing terrorist must be yet another of CapnAmerica’s hider trolls. Notice the use of wingnut. He even has the same style by using phrases like “in my book.”
busted troll 101
JM,
“one including a rice pellet in his buttocks from an exploding rice cooker. Our hero. :)”http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/01/senate_prepared.html#comment-28045010
The 3rd Purple Heart was for his arm injury.http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/jkerry/jkbronzestar.pdf
Stop sulking Cosmos, if you want to discuss your opinions do so.
Stop taunting me and discuss like a man.
You’re only goal in this blog is discredit me.
If you can admit to that then we all can move on.
JM,
You think that my pointing out the falsehoods in your posts is “sulking”? Whooaa!! You’re a very confused person.
If you want to spread falsehoods without anyone correcting you, go blog at Rush’s, or some other RW-site.
Hey all consider this viewpoint:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070116_robert_scheer_chuck_hagel_president/
JM – I also asked you to verify your rice cooker claim. Any truth ti it? Or just more impugning of the service of a veteran – one who saw a lot more service than you ever did.
“Sen. Hagel is a decorated Vietnam War vet who learned the crucial lessons of that Democrat-launched debacle of post-colonial imperialism. Even more important, he has the courage to challenge a president from his own party who so clearly didn’t.
“The speech given last night [Jan. 10] by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam,” Hagel said. “We are projecting ourselves further and deeper into a situation that we cannot win militarily.
“To ask our young men and women to sacrifice their lives to be put in the middle of a civil war is wrong. It’s, first of all, in my opinion, morally wrong. It’s tactically, strategically, militarily wrong,” he added.”
I guess it is time to begin impugning Hagel’s service too!
“These people gladly put their fucked up ‘ideology’ (if hatred and willful ignorance can really be called that) ahead of everything – the interests of the US, the Constitution of the US, even human life. In my book, that’s terrorist-like fanaticism.”
Yeah and left winger surrender crats think the world will be nice if we all sing Kum Bi Yah. You folks have NO CLUE about defending a country, and your political analysis in neither witty, intelligent of sophisticated. Your idea of haveing a “discussion” isconsulting your left winger blogs and cut and paste talking points. What a bunch of losers!
As for posting on LJWORLD and here, it is a blog. I am here for the same reason you are.
I am here to block stupid political diatribes and interject some facts. That is what on the LJWORLD blog. That really stops the arguments and gets the liberal and Anti American Democrats (surrender crats) and illegal alien lovers panties in a bunch. Facts usually do that.
Killing the terrorists and securing our borders IS what is going to protect this Democracy, surrender never does protect.
You left wingers are so full of hate on the other side, you total arguemnt is “you guys suck”. NOTHING about ideas, NOTHING about COMMITTMENT TO THE UNITED STATES, nor to the Constitution. You spin and spin things ad naseum.
BOTH political parties are broken and there are NO leaders in the House or Senate that are truley looking out for the United States or the US Citizen. They are looking only at the next 4 years. When you understand that, then you know what needs to be done by the US electorate. REVOLUTION in BOTH PARTIES!!! The Repukes have run the party in the ground by literally worshiping at the alter of “Evalgelicals” and trying to creat a Kansas and a United States Talibahn, that is abandonment of the “conservative philosophy”. The Democrats just plain hate America as a national policy.
Both parties have problems and are running the countryin the ground by polarizing the citizenry in order to split us and gather support only for the next 2 and 4 year election cycle.
The truth: we needed to be still committed to IRAQ for 10 years if needed. We voted, that is it, our National Policy is if involved in a waqr is to win. BOTH Democrats and Republicans voted on it, and why are they changing their tune? Because of CONCERN OVER A F’ING ELECTION!!!! Aything else and any excuse to the contray IS by definition ANTI AMERICN and therefore TREASON.
Choose your side, are you for America and do you want her to win in Iraq or not? Very simple question.
Do you want America to win or lose in Iraq?
“Both parties have problems and are running the countryin the ground by polarizing the citizenry in order to split us and gather support only for the next 2 and 4 year election cycle.”
Hey, it was your boy who wanted so bad to be the ‘war president’ that he blindly invaded a country and created chaos. He told us it would take ‘months not years’ and now you are saying DECADES!
Why did we invade in the first place? Where are the WMDs? Why did we suck up to alQuada by attacking their enemy?
I want us to find the best way to deal with the quagmire that Bush deliberately created. The Baker Commission report is the place to start.
As Chuck Hagel said – your way is the way to disaster. YOU are the one who seems to want us to lose since that will be the result of blind stupid moronic escalation.
By the way – if I am guilty of TREASON then you are required to call the FBI. Go for it. I defy you to.
Ben,
DO you want America to lose in Iraq or win? Very simple question. We ARE there, do you want us to win or lose?
DO YOU WNAT US TO WIN OR LOSE?
DO YOU WANT AMERICA TO WIN IN IRAQ???
Sad that so many died in Iraq today. We are not winning, no matter how bad you want to.
We have done nothing but make things worse.
Call the FBI hate-filled ASBESTOS.
I answered your asinine question. I want us to find a way to reach the best possible conclusion to the mess your boy DELIBERATELY AND WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT CREATED.
Define victory. The extermination of the Iraqi people? Or the extrication of my country from the quagmire your boy stuck us in.
The coke-induced hallucination of “jeffersonian democracy where they worship us” ain’t gonna happen.
CALL THE FBI!
ASBESTOS – DO YOU WANT TO DIG OUR HOLE DEEPER? YES OR NO?
DO you want the US to win in Iraq?
Obviously you do not or your answer would have been:
YES
By not answering “YES”, that would be a “NO”, and that would be wanting US to lose the war.
I can think of nothing else that screams “Anti-American” than wanting the US to lose.
DEFINE WIN!
My answer is yes. If the definition is real.
And why do you want to dig us into a deeper hole? Since you did not answer my question you obviously want to. And you obviously want to commit genocide. WHY?
Funny how those that want us to lose, also want to “lead” and “govern” this country.
Again.
Do you want the US to Win in Iraq?
Pro-genocide and deeper hole ASBESTOS – CALL THE FBI! You damn anti-American NAZI!
Again – define WIN.
Again – why do you want a deeper hole?
Again – why do you advocate genocide.
Yes, I want my country to win.
“DEFINE WIN!”
Meeting all the objectives that the congress voted on to go into the war in the first pace. Setting up a democratically elected government, getting Saddam out, finding the WMD’s (probably moved to Syria). Remember all that voted FOR the Iraq adventure had the very same intle provided by the NSA that the President had. IF they voted for it after reading the intel (they probably did not read it) and voted for it, they cannot simply turn their vote around.
So again…..
Do you want the US to win in Iraq?
I have already answered your question asshole:
“Yes, I want my country to win.”
However, i also know it is IMPOSSIBLE. Your cokehead knew or should have known that when he invaded.
Now – answer mine:
Do you want us in a deeper hole?
Do you advocate genocide if the Iraqi people if they don’t kowtow to us?
“Yes, I want my country to win.”
They why do you pice of crap accuse our military of genocide, You piece of filth!!! You are accusing the military of GENOCIDE!??!! That is Iraqi’a killing each other, NOT US!
You are a f’ing asshole. SO BEN HUIE I am going to forward your name and email address (BTHuie@wichita.edu) to some of the infantry. I am sure that some military guys will have a little talk with you about whether they commited GENOCIDE!!
No asshole, I have not made such an accusation. You slimy piece of garbage. YOU seem to be the one making all sorts of bullshit accusations.
I see you are REAL BRAVE hiding behind your anonymity. COWARD. CALL THE FBI YOU ASHOLE!
Yoy ASBESTOS, are a coward!
I am pretty sure SOMEONE whom has relatives serving in IRAQ will notice you and KNOW whom you are.
OPEN your liberal mouth and insert foot!
Ass, dude, you’re over the top.
At least I have the courage of my convictions nameless asshole. That is more than you have the manhood for.
Have you volunteered yet?
ASBESTOS – you sure are brave hiding under your rock. COWARD!
You Bennie boy are the one that said that the war is Genocide, and a war is having a military there fighting,… so MR. PHD, Why did you bring up GENOCIDE?? What was your point? The COmmander in Chief doesn’t want GENOCIDE, nor any collateral damage. Whom is committing it??? That is the problem with that accuzation, it inherently implies our Military did it.
That is not a very nice thing to say about those that are fighting over there.
g’night ASBESTOS – let me know when you grow enough courage to crawl out from under your rock.
I am over the top? I am not the one her claiming GENOCIDE and blaming our military!
Bennie boy did. And a Wichita State University Professor at that!!! I bet the military will have a little problem with bennie boy tomorrow. Wonder how ya are gonna spin this.
Question remains:
Do you want the US to win in Iraq?
Yes or no. No conditions, nothing, DO YOU WANT US TO WIN IN IRAQ???
COWARD – “The COmmander in Chief doesn’t want GENOCIDE, nor any collateral damage.”
I didn’t say he did – I asked if YOU do. And you refused to answer. I asked if you want us in a deeper hole. And you refused to answer. So, COWARD, I call you on it – answer the questions.
As for what the codehead wants – how the hell do you know. “Shock and Awe” was all about collateral damage.
Come on COWARD, come out from under your rock.
More LIES COWARD.
Yes, I want us to win. I answered your question numerous times COWARD. Come on COWARD, fight your own fight. Don’t hide under a rock and ask others to do it for you. Be a man – if you know how.
How am I gonna spin it? With truth and face to face. Not with lies and from under a rock like you COWARD!
Ben said no such thing.
Do you not understand that we have nobody we’re actually fighting for? The Sunnis hate us, the Shia hate us. None of us want us there. And the Kurds, they’ve already got their own region. How are we to WIN there?
This all goes back to those nuts when this war started who said “we’re America, we can do whatever the hell we want”..
We have lost the war. We destabilized a country that was not a threat to us at all. We have not brought democracy, we brought chaos.
p-mom – I think COWARD has been hitting the bottle little harder than usual tonight.
For the record. I want victory. The only way to achieve it is via the Baker report recommendations.
I do NOT want us dragged deeper into a quagmire. THAT will be the result of the cokehead’s escalation.
I want to know if Asbestos supported going to war in Iraq in the first place.
Interesting question p-mom. I’m sure COWARD will refuse to answer. Just like he refused to answer my questions.
I suspect he is back with his bottle … Limbaugh whites … crack pipe …
I’ve noticed that almost all the people who were all gung-ho for this war in the first place, are also the ones who refuse to want to back out of it now.
I think it’s a pride thing, they didn’t want to be wrong. We said this would happen, and they called us everything under the sun for opposing the war.
The difference being is that their vitriol is even worse. They hide under their rocks and spew their hate.
ASBESTOS
I took your side on an illegal immigrant thread.
Do not continue to huniliate me by association with your rants here.
The victory that you and bush define in Iraq is simply not possible. This is not due to weakness of the US military or lack of resolve by the American people or the wind being against us or bad luck.
It is simply that mission creep has placed the definition of victory just enough out of reach to keep the war going on ……indefinitely.
So can it with the rants of “do you want us to win?”. We were never meant to win.
Ben:
What is in the air today? I haven’t seen you so PO’ed in these blogs ever!
Don’t let these little minds bring you down. I so admire your posts and I think these guys just got your goat.
You are better than that.
Probably true worker. Just don’t like being called all sorts of names by COWARD. It’s too bad he refuses to be a man and discuss an issue honestly. And then has to threaten to send others to do that which he is too COWARD to do. And, of course, all based on COWARDLY LIES.
Well, all, g’night again. Morning comes FAR too early at my age …
Yea, he has some problems! But for all his crap it is not worth rolling in his crib.
By the way ASBESTOS, our guys over there are just a capable as any army anywhere of getting out of hand.
That has nothing to do with winning are war or losing it.
my my
Well Asbestos, you have to understand ol Ben. In this Blog he is Super Liberal.
When he gets home he is Mr. Conservative. :)
Not siding with either anyone on this blog, but I think enough insults were hurled to singe feathers for miles.
I thought there was going to be a scorched earth war there for a second.
One thing I’ve observed is that Liberals use flame words, so they can push buttons and get a reaction, get you off their game.
If you keep after them, they’ll get frustrated and start calling you names.
After that then they get personal and go for personal dirt.
Then comes the “I never forget – gonna repeat this talking point forever mantra”
I do the same thing to them and they just start recycling from the beginning. :)
Dish it out and can’t take it. heh
Funny Very Funny there WE. I post something that PO’s the liberals, they insult me and I am the one that bets bounced. Good thing I mave a few providers and I will continue to post.
Yes this is ASBESTOS. OUR military is the best in the world, and they go to great lengths to not have collateral damage and DO NOT committ GENOCIDE. I was wondering whom was committing the genocide there BENNY BOI!!
We leave you will see GENOCIDE and worse. But that is OK, the UN likes to see that done and obviously condone it as the did in Darfur, Congo, Rhwanda, and Kosovo.
Tyler – I agree, we are not committing genocide. And I certainly would not want to see that. And I DO want victory. That is why I want to see us have a plan that gives us a cance at victory. And I do not see Bush’s escalation as such a plan.
JM – “flame words”? You mean words like TREASON or America-hater? And then there were all the personal insults you were throwing at cosmos and WSC over on another thread.
Our military IS the best in the world; there is no question about that. BUT, they still cannot do the impossible. And the impossible is what Bush has created. THAT is why the ‘elders’ on the baker Commission call for a change in course. I vote with the elders.
JM – “When he gets home he is Mr. Conservative. :)”
What the heck does THAT mean?
It would be easier to subjugate the entire universe through force than the minds of a single village.
~Voltaire
“Tyler – I agree, we are not committing genocide. And I certainly would not want to see that.”
Then why did you keep bringing it up and harping on it? Iw the US is not doing it, then the Iraqi’s are and which ones are? It owuld be the “insurgents” would it not, committing the genocide? Would it not get worse if our protection of those suffering was removed? IE then “phased re-deployment” equals wanting genocide and wanting the US to lose the war.
I asked you if YOU advocated that. That is all. I never even said it was occurring – at least not yet. I hope we can find a strategy that will keep it from getting to that point.
Remember, it is YOUR side that ednies that there is even a civil war at this point. And our currect “protection” has not been very effective. In fact, according to senior statesmen like Bush 1 Sec State Baker our presence is making things worse. Our chosen leader in Iraq says that as well.
You final sentence interpretation is FALSE. Bush 1 and James Baker do NOT want the US to lose the war. And neither do I.
“After that then they get personal and go for personal dirt.”
I think outing Ben, threatening his job, enlisting others to spam and flame him, now THAT is mean, and dirty blog behavior.
No wonder you got bounced. And multiple providers? What, you are a full time troll?
Glad Ben has the courage to keep posting in the face of that. We love Ben for his reasoned and intelligent posts. He is committed to doing as well as saying. And he posts under his real name.
Now that is REAL courage given the assholes that are trolling this blog.
KFG…..DITTO!!
Outing Ben?In what way?
What?We got a newbie insta-troll?I don’t know about others,but I never was real keen on forcing my way into someplace I’m not welcome.You don’t get bounced for no reason.I know. I’ve been bounced.
I think it wouldnt be hard for a thinking person to look at the missing names and nics and the lack of trolling and figure out who is doing what.
Perhaps some troll busting has gone on over the weekend?
But dont forget. The WE can block posters, but not readers or lurkers. Even if a troll is bounced, they are likely still out there in cyberspace, keeping count of all our transgressions.
Yep. Creepy place these days.
Naw, they can’t block posters, they can try, but there are ways around it.
Only way to block posters is with a password system each time you post.Not that stupid verification system they have now. Let’s you in the barn and gives you the challenge of reading barely discernible numbers.Yeah I know its for crawlers and bots. Everytime I post a link that thing pops up. And people wonder why I don’t post links.
“JM – “When he gets home he is Mr. Conservative. :)”
What the heck does THAT mean?
Posted by: Ben Huie | January 23, 2007 at 08:31 AM “well?
“JM – “When he gets home he is Mr. Conservative. :)”"What the heck does THAT mean?”
Ben,It means you are more of the family man, church going, professional.
Was just saying on the blog, we can let it all hang out and beat the our own personal drums of war.
There is not necessarily a corollation of what people are on a blog as compared to what they are in real life.
The ideology is the same for sure, but it is not necessarily addressed in the same manner. heh
The WE Blog editors can block a poster via IP address through TypePad.
They just seldom do it, since they do not have full time monitors. The only time the address the situation is when someone reports it. They will yank post for severe naughty words. The also yanked my “FINGER” posted as Jew Boy, but they did say that they liked my thought. BTW – the FINGER was just directed at Ian Santiago for his racist and anti-semitic rants.
Well, JM, you obviously know nothing about me. Yes, I am a family man – that is why I am a “liberal”. However, I am not particularly church-going, but I am involved in a lot of faith-based activities. That, too, tends toward liberal “feed the hungry etc” and “stewardship of God’s creation.”
Now, for a Republican Senator’s comments on the war:
“Republican Sen. Norm Coleman of Minnesota, also took issue with Bush. “I can’t tell you what the path to success is, but it’s not what the president has put on the table.”"
And a VietNam veteran:
“”They don’t have a plan,” said freshman Sen. Jim Webb, picked by the Democrats to deliver their response to Bush. “What they have put on the table is more a tactical adjustment.” Webb, a former Vietnam veteran, opposed Bush’s invasion of Iraq.”
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/breaking_news/16521342.htm
By the way – family, especially my grandchildren, is PRECISELY the reason I beat my scientific climate change drum. I will see the beginnings of the results of the “great experiment”; they will reap the full consequences.