If Democrats picked their presidential nominees on resumes alone, Bill Richardson ought to be their guy: a popular two-term governor from the newly crucial West, a Hispanic at a time when that population is exploding in the country, a former eight-term congressman, former U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, former secretary of energy, and on-and-off diplomat in some of the toughest foreign policy situations on Earth, including Sudan and North Korea. OK, so the Los Alamos security problems and Wen Ho Lee scandals were on his watch, and somebody somewhere will make hay out of his majoring in French (as well as political science) during his frat boy days at Tufts University. The question is whether Richardson can get any room in the spotlight. Will Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama elbow him out?
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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80 Comments
He won’t get elected because he looks too much like Fred Flinstone.
TRACY – I remember saying something similar – he just isn’t handsome enough for too many people. That said, I like him and what he says.
Way back in 1960 a lot of analysts said that based on trascript or radio Nixon won the debates; but on TV Kennedy did.
Yup, not pretty enough.
We live in an American Idol age.
If we wanted quiet competence, we move to someplace like Germany.
We want flash and glitter . . . Give the Louvre to Paris, we’ve got LAS VEGAS, BABY!
Richardson would be a good president. Unfortunately, he’s not a good CANDIDATE.
Big difference.
Rhonda – forgot these traits:
is anti-protection of the Southern Border, is pro-amnesty, is pro-choice and opposes the iraq war.
sounds like a great Democrat candidate to me too!!!!!
Good lord people, not handsome enough, not good looking enough, looks like Fred Flintstone. Anyone take a good look at Hilary…yuk. How’d you like to wake up next to that creature every morning? Talk about coyote ugly.
CapnAmerica, you sure got that right!
Craiger, have you ever met Hillary? Have you ever heard her speak?
I think too many people have been influenced by the caricatures in the comics and have not really looked at or listened to Hillary Clinton. Bill Richardson will probably suffer the same fate.
We need a president who is intelligent enough to govern this country, regardless of looks. And that person needs govern the WHOLE country, leading us in the way that is best for people of ALL persuasions and opinions, not just the few he calls “the right” or “his base” while ignoring the rest.
I don’t know about this “Not good looking”. Which Democrat Candidates in the past were good looking? Other than probably JFK.
John Kerry isn’t a pretty guy! So I don’t know what you guys are talking about. The pretty girl of the Democrat seven drawfs in the last primary was John Edwards and he couldn’t even pull his own other than getting a VP nod for Kerry (which I believe was Kerry’s worst campaign mistake.)
I will have to disagree with people. For the young dumb masses, being good looking may be a factor, but politically charged, engaged and well informed voters who are involved in Primaries and Conventions will not be selecting a candidate by looks.
Either that, this must be another Left Talking Points. Trying to discourage the a well qualified candidate from entering, because they want Hillary or Obama to save them, and this is just another smear tatic.
You guys truely eat your own, don’t you?
Richardson is one democrat for whom I would consider voting. He’s bright, well-spoken, experiences in all the right places…
I’d have to learn more about his ideology…
Rusty Ford! That person isn’t Hillary! She is just riding the long coattails of her husband. On her own, she wouldn’t be able to carpetbag the Senate seat in New York.
But you guys will probably elect her, because you think she’s going to be just like William, but she isn’t nor will even come close.
That means the political shift of our country will now be that a politican can be elected soley on their family name and not be any hard creditials.
If Hillary becomes elected, we will have 24 to 28 straight years of Family Dynasty Rule. That is the wrong direction for our country.
I disapproved and voted against Bush Jr. for this very reason.
Let’s bring in new blood and people who have the experience to be a good President.
Isn’t pretty enough?
Are you all Mad Magazine fans? Dubya has to be Alfred E. Newman’s twin. I think I’ve even seen traces of “What? Me Worry?” stamped on his forehead.
And, man has he aged over the past couple of years!
Joe,
I hate to say this, but I agree with you. Not to mention that I don’t believe it’s the right time for Hillary, if indeed there is a right time.
Which doesn’t mean that if she gets the nomination I won’t vote for her.
RD she has to get in now. By the time 2008 comes, she will be 61 years old. If she waits 8 years after that (we know that a Republican has a long shot to win in 2008), she will be as old as Reagan was around 69 years old.
I’m not saying that age is a huge factor in a President, but for Hillary, I don’t think she couldn’t wait that long.
Joe – I LIKE Richardson. His looks are irrelevant to me. My concern is precisely that “For the young dumb masses, being good looking may be a factor,” you referred to.
I would LOVE to see an election based strictly on ideas rather than appearences.
I also don’t think it will be Hillary – for a number of reasons. And, as noted above, by 2016 she will definitely be too old.
Blograts….It’s a JOKE.well, kinda.You know the prerequisites for running:1)Great hair & teeth2)Admission of drug use when younger.3)An american citizen.
That’s it!That’s all folks!
I, too, like Richardson. It seems his positions are, by and large, in concert with the populace, at least insofar as I can determine.
Gee, Ben, what a novel concept: an election based on ideas, not appearance. :)
Did Edwards admit drug use yet?He’s two out of three, anyway.
Rhonda , Joe and the goofnut like the guy?
Tells me all I need to know! NO WAY does he get my vote. If he is the nominee I vote Nader.
Regardless of how it goes, the Democrats are at least showing some diversity. Of the four leading candidates, African- American, female, Hispanic and one white man.
It is about time that as a Nation, we moved away from the good old white boy model.
Now if someone can just convince Biden that he has zero change to win.
Richardson would be the most formidable candidate that the Dems could nominate, at least of those who have announced so far.
Democrats have a history of nominating a dark horse candidate: Clinton came from nowhere to get the nomination. Kerry was an also-ran until he surprised them all in Iowa.
Richardson could be that dude.
sheesh outie likes him too?
I will have to actively campaign against this guy.
Joe says he is “pro buisiness”. Well we sure as hell do not need that. Buisiness already has its foot on the throat of America. About time America put its foot on the throat of buisiness.
DA,You never answered my question: are you a negro?
RD -
HAHAHAHAHA! I never thought about it before, but as soon as you pointed it out – OMG he DOES look lik Alfred E Newman…
I’m going to be laughing over that one for a while….
Sorry I don’t have anything more constructive to contribute to the topic at this time, but I am totally stuck on this….
HAHHAHAHA>…
Whoops – lik should be like – that’s what I get for hitting enter too quickly…
Wendy and RD, you should be aware that Alfred E Neuman takes great offense to being compared to GWB.
For one, Alfred is considerably smarter the George the Younger.
Anyway, here’s a link for Bush – Nueman pictures….
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushpic8.htm
Nueman quotes – far better than Bush quotes….
http://www.leedberg.com/mad/quotes/quotes.html
You can all scoff at this notion that good looks or good hair should have nothing to do with voting for a president, but in today’s society of American Idol and celebrity worship; I am afraid that to alot of people that is all that matters.
Each citizen is allowed one vote and they can use that vote however they wish. I like Richardson and I think he brings a whole new dynamic to the picture but the trick is to get his name well known to the American Idol crowd, then he will have a chance.
Apparently, Outlander is not alone in his opinion concerning Governor Richardson:
http://www.examiner.com/a-523409%7EEd_Morrissey__Richardson_could_be__08_s_most_dangerous_candidate.html
There is a bit of a hint in the above about potential “hardball” negative campaigning in the primary race, which I hope does not prove out.
True, red, but that will only occur if substance can be elevated over form, and I’m not too hopeful on that one.
Speaking of “hardball” stuff, CNN reported today that they investigated the “Hillary – Obama went to a Muslim madrass (sp) school as a child” as was reported by Insight Magazine and Free Republic.
False on both counts. Hillary did not suggest the story and Obama attended a public, non-sectarian school while in Jarkarta.
Another right wing smear disproved.
What if a Democratic Candidate Wins and picks a Republican Vice President?
Would they get Sebelius Campaign Style points?
Thanks WSC – I found it rather amusing that the Righties were so hot on that “story”.
JM – it would be quite interesting. I wonder if Hagel might want to switch parties? Ot maybe the former senator from Rhode Island (name escapes me right now). Chafee?
Lincoln Caffee has indicated that he is considering switching to Democrat, after he was defeated for reelection despite being one of the most vocal Bush critics in the Party.
Olympia Snowe is also thought to be a potential defector from the party of Bush.
Hagel is a good man, but he is pretty mainstream Republican except for the Bush War on Iraq.
Madrassa means school in muslim.
obama went to a madrassa (school) in Jakarta.
also, obama was a muslim, converted to christianity. according to islamic law obama should be executed.
also, obama’s middle name is Hussein.
can’t you see it right now? the ads presenting obama’s name – hussein?
just another flash-bulb from the liberals who are creaming for something out of the box.
“obama went to a madrassa (school) in Jakarta.”
According to CNN, the school that Obama attended in Jarkarta was NOT a madrassa – it was a non-sectarian public school. Also, Obama was never a Muslim – his birth father was.
Ad what difference does it make that his middle name is Hussein? It is a common name in Kenya, where his father was from.
BTW – Muslim is not a language, it is a name for a follower of Islam.
captain_pointdexter,
Liar. That’s debunked and manufactured spin from the Rev. Sun Young Moon’s newspaper (the Washington Times).
Here’s hoping you show up at the meetup so I can call you a liar to your face. As an attorney, you should know better than to repeat slander.
I heard Gov. Richardson over the weekend and was impressed with the breadth of his knowledge regarding the areas addressed. He seems to have a very pragmatic nut&bolts approach to problems and their possible solutions.
He is also not a mouth-breather!
Here is a link to the CNN story….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-kPCCog0BY
BTW – Obama attended this school when he was SIX years old. Notice towards the end of the story, pictures of the school’s faculty at the time (1961) – no burkas, no fundamentalist beards, etc.
Sorry – Obama was BORN in 1961. He went to school in Jakarta in ‘67 – ‘68.
My bad.
Good God – did you see what I said above? A Madrassa is not a bad thing, its just the word “school” in another language.get a grip.
And its not my opinion that his middle name is Hussein – but I think it might matter to the chattering classes who actually vote for the President.
Listen, a campaign commercial that even flashes his middle name, Hussein, will matter to people who vote. I’m not saying its right, I’m saying thats the way it is – sorry folks.
BTW, CF, the if I lived in Wichita and gave a damn about meeting someone like you, after you called me a liar to my face I would punch you in yours.
But since I don’t live in Wichita, I won’t be there, so save your aggression for your wife and kids (as I know you already have).
People need to relax, I’m not saying Obama attended a fundy school in Jakarta – In fact, when he was a kid Madrassas were probably not heavily influenced by Wahhabism as they are now – what I am saying is that it can be a campaign issue for people to bring up and for people to say, “I’m really not ready for a guy to be my president that attended a school in Jakarta, who consumed many illegal drugs (yes yes, I know the whole GWB cocaine thing – but GWB didn’t write a book about it like Obama did), has little to know experience managing something like a government, etc. etc.”
you people like to jump to conclusions, I am not, I am simply exploring and bringing up a subject.
By the way, what I said is not slanderous – at most it would be libel. But lets look at that. This can be considered a public forum I think. And since I am speaking of Barak Obama (a public official) and not about, say, CF’s life at home with his family, then my speech is protected. Just like the news organizations that publish something about a political figure that turns out to be false cannot be prosecuted or sued. And since I have signed up with the wichita eagle to be a poster on this blog, the press’s protections are afforded to me as long as I am writing about a “political concern” about a “public official.”
So, spare me your whining.
Learn to take a joke and get a life.
Sorry, Poindexter, I failed to realize that it was a joke.
Yeah, that is a funny one, you got me. Yeah, suggesting that a possible candidate is really a Muslim with ties to a fundamentalist Islamist school IS a really funny thing.
And the fact that the president has declared war on terrorists and Islamic extremists – well, that just drives the punchline home.
Dang, that was funny, now that you mention it.
I guess I need to run down to Wal Mart and pick up right wing sense of humor.
My left wing sense of humor just doesn’t see the joke.
so, Bush declared war on Islamic facists and terrorists before or after September 11th.
Just want to make sure I have my timelines correct.
because I’m such a stupid redneck and all.
wait wait.
WSClark – where did I say that Obama has ties with a fundamentalist islamic school?
I say he attended a madrassa – today that means a fundy, wahabbi school, back in the early 60’s that wasn’t the case.
Well your boy Bush declared war on the country that supported the people that caused 9/11 – Afghanistan – what does that have to do with Iraq or Barack Obama?
You said it was a joke, ‘dexter.
Where is the punchline?
“…but the trick is to get his name well known to the American Idol crowd, then he will have a chance.”
So the question now is Can He Sing?
Hey, CF! When did you get married? ;)
where in anything I said above references Iraq?
come on – keep on the subject matter here.
and I didn’t bring up Obama when it comes to Bush and the war on radical islam – you brought it up.
take a joke is just lightening up…so lighten up.
Wendy,
I’m happy to make you happy. *grin*
If Alfred E. doesn’t work, how about the fact that GW could be the Missing Link?
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushmonkey1.htm
“take a joke is just lightening up…so lighten up.”
Man, you backpedal really, really fast, ‘dexter. Have you considered a career as a defensive back in the NFL? Those cats are fast in reverse, but you could keep up.
But anyway, you SUGGESTED that Obama attended a fundamentalist school, knowing full well that it was a secular public school and that he was only six at the time.
You are a good Republican, Poindexter.
And the thread is about Democratic candidates and their images – hence the original reference regarding the Hillary – Obama Jakarta issue.
Yeah Richardson is pretty cool from what I’ve seen on TV. He would make an excellent choice for someone’s Vice President, imo.
no backpedal here – just trying to keep up with your dodges.
so what do you say about the stuff obama says in his book?
what do you think the public thinks about a president or senator who smokes like obama does
Regardless of the technical translation of Madrassa (school) the clear CONNOTATION is that it is a fundy brainwash school. So, the intent of its use here is clear.
awwwww, are talking intent here.
if we are talking intent, my intent was to start a dialogue about barack’s background…
then I got – liar, slanderer, etc.
so, you know, it denegrates from there.
Jeez, we have a multi-failed business jerk, AWOL TANG flier, cocaine user, alcoholic, lousy heartless governor, etc, for president and you thik that we should worry because the guy smokes a cigarette?
Jeez, Obama admitted that he used powder cocaine – that is a hell of a lot more than what Bush has done.
Christ.
yeah, the Texas Rangers are a total failure, I know.And dodging wars is nothing new to presidents, see Clinton and Bush II, alcoholic that found Christ (as you said), lousy heartless governor (not sure how you define that, he was elected and won the presidency with more votes than any in history)…
and, no, you shouldn’t worry about him having a cigarette – I bet the tobacco companies will love it – President Obama, the Malboro Man!
actually, I’m starting to like the guy…
Man, give it up, you can’t win this one Poindexter.
Let’s start with Bush won the presidency with more votes than anyone in history.
That is true – but what you Cons don’t mention is that Kerry ALSO got more votes for president than anyone (else) in history. Nice try.
The heartless reference was to “please don’t kill me” which is pretty pathetic. I thought we were supposed to be the civilized country.
As for the TX Rangers – the are a great success and have been ever since Bush and Co conned the people of Texas into building a stadium for them.
Then Bush sold his small percentage for millions.
And Clinton evaded the draft, legally. Bush went AWOL during a time of war – technically desertion – a crime subject to the death penalty.
But other than that, you’re doing great Poindexter.
So, when Obama went to the Wahhabbi Madrassa in Jakarta, what do you think he learned about the U.S.?
If Bush did it illegally, why hasn’t he been convicted of desertion?
“If Bush did it illegally, why hasn’t he been convicted of desertion?”
Dang, this one has been slammed dunked more than a basketball at an NBA practice.
His name was BUSH! His Daddy got his the appointment, moving him to the head of the line, past the three year waiting list and the fact that his entry scores were barely passing.
Enough?
Do you really think that Daddy Bush would allow even a inquiry after he called in markers to get his boy in the TANG?
And…………
“Wahhabbi Madrassa” I thought you said it was just a school?
The CNN tape showed the school that Obama attended – and it certainly was not a fundamentalist Islamist school.
But thanks again for playing!
So, when Obama went to the Wahhabbi Madrassa in Jakarta, what do you think he learned about the U.S.?
Posted by: captain_poindexter | January 23, 2007 at 02:45 PM
Any proof of that?
By the way, ya’ll, Bush has not dropped to TWENTY-EIGHT PERCENT in the latest opinion poll by CBS.
It is now official – Bush has reached Nixonian levels.
Twenty-eight percent!
Amazing!
captain_poindexter,
Barack Obama was never a Muslim. That is an imputation that is false. It is also false to claim that his father was Muslim, so that he was also by extension.
Here is his account of the religious dimension of his childhood.
“This isn’t to say that she [his mother] provided me with no religious instruction. In her mind, a working knowledge of the world’s great religions was a necessary part of any well-rounded education. In our household the Bible, the Koran, and the Bhagavad Gita sat on the shelf alongside books of Greek and Norse and African mythology. On Easter or Christmas Day my mother might drag me to church, just as she dragged me to the Buddhist temple, the Chinese New Year celebration, the Shinto shrine, and ancient Hawaiian burial sites. But I was made to understand that such religious samplings required no sustained commitment on my part—no introspective exertion or self-flagellation. Religion was an expression of human culture, she would explain, not its wellspring, just one of the many ways—and not necessarily the best way—that man attempted to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives. In sum, my mother viewed religion through the eyes of the anthropologist that she would become; it was a phenomenon to be treated with a suitable respect, but with a suitable detachment as well. Moreover, as a child I rarely came in contact with those who might offer a substantially different view of faith. My father was almost entirely absent from my childhood, having been divorced from my mother when I was 2 years old; in any event, although my father had been raised a Muslim, by the time he met my mother he was a confirmed atheist, thinking religion to be so much superstition.”
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html
This gives the lie to a key claim in your misleading, boilerplate remarks: that Obama ever professed Islam as his faith prior to professing Christianity. Likewise, it is also false to claim, as Schlussel, Limbaugh, and others have done, that because his father was a Muslim, that he is as well, and is under some sort of fatwa for converting.
Those were lies. Repeating them mimetically, without thought, makes you a liar, too, captain_poindexter. If you care to retract or temper your claims, I’m all ears.
Your cheap shots at me were quite pedestrian. But as for threatening to punch me, that’s the first time anybody on this blog has done anything of the sort. I think it’s fair to call it a new low.
Congratulations, captain_pointdexter.
Ya’ know what?It would do this country a whole buncha good to have a president with islamic relatives!
hey CF – anyone why gets in my face to call me a liar will get a punch in the face.
and when you check the box “male” on something, aren’t you lying?
why is that, Tracy?
Poindexter, crawl back under the rock that you share with KSGolfnut, JM, Santiago and company….
Why do I have to go away?
Are you annoyed by my opinions?
Am I not playing ‘the game’ correctly?
BTW, WSClark, I’m not going anywhere. Actually, I usually don’t post anything, today I have the day off and not much to do, so I thought I’d mess around a bit with you people. Now I am going to make it a daily thing.
Man, I am soooooo excited now.
captain pointy?
I don’t think I like you very much.
Therefore I predict an unfortunate experiece for you here.
what? are you going to send me a virus? are you threatening me blog-harm?
I’m scared, JR. Sorry I won’t be at the meet and great for you either.
Poindexter–
When you say something as true when you don’t know it to be true is a lie.
Thus it is with your take on madrassa. “Madrassa: does not mean school in Bahasa Indonesian, you dumb a$$.
Their word for school is “sekolah.” I know this from having lived three years in Malaysia in which the majority of its citizens speak Bahasa Melayu as their first language.
????? or “madrasah” is the ARABIC word for school, and Indonesians really only use Arabic for topics relating to Islam.
So by saying something as true that you didn’t know to be true makes you a liar.
My e-mail is live if you want to arrange a time and place to punch me in the face.
But having been on the fencing club in college, I prefer sabers, which I can provide if you want.
I was in Indonesia for well over a year many years ago. It was an overwhelmingly Muslim country then, and a wonderful place to be. The Sukarno government was, of course, literally, a CIA propped-up sham, but the people loved him. The problem was the economy. It was in the fast lane to hell, and he was overthrown. Pro-Sukarno loyalists took to the streets, knowing the government-CIA link, looking for Americans to kill, and we were spirited out of the country in the middle of the night on a private jet which had been “liberated” from the government by those in charge of the coup, most likely, saving our lives. In the ensuing 30+ years, the vaccuum of political leadership has created the influx of Islamic terrorists. It breaks my heart to see what has happened to this one-time Shangra-la.
I would not vote for Obama, but it has nothing to do with his childhood in Djakarta, his middle name, nor the color of his skin. He just doesn’t have the experience. Richardson is the best the Democrats could offer, but Billary’s money will buy her the nomination — a fact that pleases the hell out of this Republican.
Good observations about Indonesia rm. I vaguely recall all that but, unfortunately, wasn’t really paying as much attention to that region as I should have.
rm6046! That must have been a long time ago for you, if you were there when Sukarno was around.
Yes, Joe, a long, long time.
I am of similar age – remember Sukarno (always got him confused with Suharto) – but not as much as I should have. In those days I had other – shallower – interests.
Richardson immediately goes to third on my list, right after John Edwards and Barack Obama.Having met the governor on two different occasions, I can testify that he is extremely articulate. Over here, his candidacy has made huge waves because the North Koreans feel a degree of comfort with him, and have on occasion used him as a sounding board in dealing with the Bush administration.All of which begs the question: what would the U.S. do with a president WITH A BRAIN???
The “man behind the coup”, who saved our lives, was the head of Pertamina, the national oil company. He never desired the limelight, just a better economy for his country. He wept openly on our way to the air field for his friend and prayed they would not kill him. It was like a whole ‘nother lifetime ago, Ben. I don’t think about it much anymore, but when I do, it could have been last week. I guess that’s what we get for getting old, my friend.
I am involved in helping a family whose daughter was sexually abused by her grandfather. Her name is Madison and she lives in El Paso, TX with her father, a Texas resident. The father and mother share joint custody, but the mother is currently and has previously been incarcerated, so the father has sole physical custody. The mother is incarcerated in New Mexico.Madison was first molested by her aunt in the home of the grandfather. It is suspected that the grandfather also molested the aunt, who would be his step-daughter. For this reason, Madison’s father does not want Madison anywhere near her grandfather. Unfortunately, Judge William A. McBee of the Fifth Judicial District Court for Lea County in New Mexico awarded the grandfather liberal and unsupervised visitation rights with Madison. On the first visit, Madison was sexually abused by her grandfather. While in the bathtub, he instructed her to insert her fingers into her vagina while he watched. He also touched her himself, while she was in the bathtub. Madison, when at the grandparents’ home, is not allowed to use toilet paper to wipe herself after urinating. She is instructed to use only her fingers while her grandfather watches. Obviously, the family is disgusted and at their wits’ end as to how to protect their child from this monster when the court system has granted him all the access he needs to continue to abuse her.The stepmother and father sought help from New Mexico Governor (and Presidential candidate) Bill Richardson, but were turned away. According to his staffer, Elizabeth Osorio, he didn’t want to get involved because the case is “too complex.” Several of us wanting to help Madison wrote to the governor and posted blogs on the Richardson for President website asking how can we expect him to run the country if he finds the concept of protecting a five year-old child from a pedophile too complex. Our blogs were immediately removed from the Richardson for President website and our accounts were disabled. This is how we snagged media attention.Here’s a list of the deleted blogs and disabled accounts:http://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/akbooherhttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/annebooherhttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/amiedavishttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/amycaudillohttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/candicetschaunerhttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/mistyperkinshttp://action.richardsonforpresident.com/page/community/blog/amandalloydWe have KVIA-TV in Texas investigating the story. They have pledged to report on this tragedy and to cover Madison’s story through to the end. We have also been contacted by KOAT-TV and a reporter from the Albuquerque Tribune, who may also cover the story. This is rapidly turning into a very high-profile case, but it is complicated due to the issue of jurisdiction. Madison is a Texas resident, but she’s being sent into the arms of her molester by the state of New Mexico. The parents are tapped out. They’ve been financing this fight for a long time and it’s a war they shouldn’t even have to wage. Any publicity you can give us, especially on the Richardson angle, would go a long way towards helping secure protection for this child.Thanks for your help!Anne Booherhttp://www.petitiononline.com/Madison/petition.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/campaign4madison/C4M.htmljkbooher@optonline.net or akbooher@hotmail.com