Andy Wollen, chairman of the Kansas Traditional Republican Majority, came up with a compelling moral to the tale of the Phill Kline job swap, noting in a Kansas City Star commentary that the Johnson County precinct committee representatives who gave the defeated attorney general the job of district attorney “were themselves elected in the Aug. 1 primary election. This was an election, not coincidentally, in which only 15 percent of the Johnson County electorate showed up at the polls.” Those who didn’t vote Aug. 1 “are partially responsible for the political resurrection of Phill Kline,” Wollen wrote, urging those who aren’t “Kline Republicans” not to switch parties but to get involved.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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95 Comments
Again we have continued Kline bashing, which has already cost the Eagle any hope of even pretending objectivity in reporting news related to him. Nationally, your hatred of Kline has trashed the reputation of this paper. You are just too myopic and obsessed to realize it.
Another pathetic blog entry from the “persecuted” rapture-right Rosemarie.
The Eagle just reports the news. Kline is “bashed” because he seems to have a singular fixation: Dr. Tiller and the completely LEGAL concept of abortion. That is what just grates at you anti-choice people, abortion is LEGAL. Here’s a concept, if you don’t like abortion don’t have one. It’s none of your damned business what LEGAL medical procedure anyone else chooses to have done.
It’s leagl within certain guidelines, if Tiller crossed the line, he deserves to be prosecuted. No one is above the the law, BD, not even your god and savior, George Tiller.
The law……………
You only cite the “law” when it is convenient for you to do so. What is at issue here are reporting “crimes”, misdemeanors. If Kline was really trying to apprehend and prosecute child rape case, he’d be searching live birth records not just abortion records.
FYI……..Dr. Tiller is not my Lord and Savior. He is a citizen of this great nation just like you and I. The difference is that Dr. Tiller chooses to perform a medical procedure you find wrong. YOU are the people with the problem. It seems you have elevated Phill Kline to the role of YOUR god.
Like I said earlier, if you don’t like abortion don’t have one.
The plantation mentality of the Eagle’s editorial board is stunning to behold and this is a perfect example.
The Kansas Traditional Republican Majority certainly isn’t a majority or Wollen wouldn’t be whining. It’s views certainly aren’t representative of the mainstream of Republican thought, and I’m betting its members can be found on the donation lists of several Democrats. And traditional? Traditional what, socialists?
But The Eagle likes them because they share their hateful, elitist view of all the “unqualified” evangelicals that they want to purge from the marketplace of ideas.
Not only Kline, but his #2 and #3 men are more qualified than the guy the press wanted (nice kid, just some low level bureaucrat,not a leader).
Kline’s crime is that he is honest and he’s taking on liberalism’s unholy sacrament of abortion and either criteria will always make you unqualified to the likes of a bigot like Holman.
Yes, you’re dunb. That I’ll agree with!If you don’t believe in child abuse, then don’t abuse any….but don’t interfere with another’s right to do so.
When a 12 yr old gives birth, it’s reported by the hospital and investigated. Live births are a bit harder to sweep under the rug than a quiet abortion. Every medical professional is required by law to report suspected abuse, including Tiller.
Looks like the Johnson County Voters reaped what they sewed. :)
The Kansas Traditional Republican Majority certainly isn’t a majority or Wollen wouldn’t be whining. It’s views certainly aren’t representative of the mainstream of Republican thought, and I’m betting its members can be found on the donation lists of several Democrats. And traditional? Traditional what, socialists?
You may find that they do follow the mainstream Republican thoughts closer then the heroes of the Neo-Cons. G.W. Bush, Phil Kline and the like are the product of the R.R., PNAC and the Neo-Cons. Not of any true believe in the American way of life. I have yet to join The Kansas Traditional Republican party but may still, right now they are just a rallying point for those left in the G.O.P. in Kansas to try and take back control of the party from the extremists that have made the term Republican liken to Nazi, Fascist and Pharisee. You really need to get a clue friend, you are losers among losers even your own base is questioning you truthfulness and motives. Moderates are the really base of the party, you are outnumbered and outclassed. We fell asleep on our watch and you stole the G.O.P. but guess what it may take some years but you days are numbered.
As to Kline, it is not slander or bashing if it is true, if there are crimes being committed by Tiller then he will be brought up on them in God’s time. But abortion is not illegal and all the wishful thinking will not make it so.The evangelicals are becoming the modern day Pharisees, putting themselves in place of God. Wanting to enforce they laws and not God’s law and God is capable of enforcing his law himself. It has worked out the way God wanted for thousands of years and you think you are smarter the God?
We both should know how Jesus thought about Pharisees! Worshipping God does not come from a book, a cross or a building all of which are made to be graven images. It comes from the heart and when you put man in front of God, though man is a speck in the eye and God is without end. The speck can block out the view of the larger vision.
JM, looks like karma bit them in the @ss.
Mary,”…if Tiller crossed the line, he deserves to be prosecuted. No one is above the the law”Agreed wholeheartedly, but has anyone noted that Kline’s stated rationale was to get evidence to prosecute rapists! All he’s done is file bogus charges against Tiller, even though there were 12 underage girls on the list whose molesters are getting away scot free? Methinks our chief law enforcement officer has been lying through his teeth to the court all along! Some Pig! “No one is above the the law?” Riiight!
Original RD,”JM, looks like karma bit them in the @ss.”No, that was his dogma!
Original RD,Might I suggest that instead of that somewhat clumsy nic, we simply call the new RD (dare I say it?)R2D2?
BOTH parties have the problem of their primaries, and thus their pricinct committees, being doinated by “true believers”. This is but one example of that and the cause, IN BOTH PARTIES, is low turnout in August.
As usual, Ben is right.
Rather than persecuting The Klinester, I wonder if the Eagle isn’t his number one dupe. Who else chronicles his silliness like they do?
I’m sure the Editors and Managers of WE check the pulse of what is hot in the news regularly. The Kline story has been relatively hot before the election and of course recently.
Continueing to record an ongoing story is a matter of good business sense.
The WE is afterall a business and need to sell papers/advertisement.
You see Mary, you’re arguing but the points of no name and Rosemary just negate your position, that this is merely about one doctor who may or may not (probably not) be doing something wrong. The ONLY ONLY ONLY reason why his records are being scrutinized is not because of misconduct, no, but because of a witchhunt, and that is what it is all about.
You know what it is like in nursing, things go wrong a LOT, paperwork gets screwed up. Would you like it if the person you worked for was under the microscope all of the time? For stupid piddly stuff? How about you, should we call forth all your nursing notes to see if all your ‘i’s are dotted?
That’s also why all of us, you, me and any other medical professional is scared to death of being called before a jury, because these cases were long ago, and if we didn’t document EVERY minute detail just so, then we might be called on it.
YOU know it.
This should really be a lesson to us all, that midterms and who you vote for, who they’re connected to, is all very important.
What several people on this thread have overlooked is that our esteemed leader of Sedg. Co, Nola Fulston, said she had been referred several cases from Phill Kline. She didn’t say how she disposed of these cases just that they had been handled. Seeing as how she is so possessive of her territory, what else could the man do?
Do you have PROOF of these referrals ksgrm?
BD the only proof I have is that I heard those words come out of her mouth during an interview last week. There was a question about the prosecution of the men who had impregnated the underage girls and Nola said several of those had been referred to her. She was very vague about how she handled them.
Um, how would Kline know who the girls were in the first place if the names/addresses were blanked out?
Yes, PM, all my i’s are dotted and my t’s are crossed, and I don’t live in fear of being scrutinized, because I know my practice is ethical and I don’t break the rules. Yes, things go wrong, but if you deal with it the right way, your license isn’t at risk.Seems like many of you are good at making assumptions, I prefer to wait and see what comes of all the hoopala. Yes, I think Kline is a fruitcake, but then so is Tiller. I have no idea how well Tiller runs his “practice”, that’s for the “powers that be” to decide.And yes, I would hope my boss is being scrutinized all the time, those of us in the medical profession are more than used to it. Tiller should be treated no differently than anyone else. If he hasn’t done anything wrong, then he shouldn’t be worried.
According to our County Attorney:
Foulston said the attorney general is required by law to refer the cases. “We have received his referrals, and we have followed up on each of the cases brought to our attention” in the past, she said.
“The majority of the cases he referred to our jurisdiction had already been investigated, and most had already been through the court system by the time we received the AG’s list.”
From this Eagle article:http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/16353869.htm
She doesn’t sound “vague” to me. But then I haven’t made up my mind that she is protecting criminals.
I’ve met Foulston – and it was my view that she tends to _not_ be “vague” about anything.
If Kline has evidence of child rape in the 30 misdemeanor charges he filed against Tiller; then why doesn’t Kline announce any child rape charges against the culprits? Why are we not being told about his investigation into these underage girls’ cases? Why just focus on Tiller?
Why not bring misdemeanor charges against any and all professionals that are required by law to report child abuse in these underage girls? Surely there were other people that knew these girls were pregnant and didn’t report it to the authorities. Why isn’t Kline announcing their charges being filed?
Kline made his blunder when he showed up on Bill O’Reilly’s show and talking about the medical records that had just been released to him. That shows his motivation to just get Tiller. I’m afraid even if Kline is the white knight in shining armor to rescue these underage girls, Kline has tainted anything he does and says by the approach he chose to target Tiller.
I’m not for abortion on demand but I’m not for no abortions either. I believe there are certain circumstances where abortion is the only option. But I also believe this should be the decision between the mother, father and their doctor. No one else, especially the government, should have any say in the matter.
I hardly doubt that anyone should be under THIS much intense scrutiny for a legal practice. Just because you don’t consider it to be ethical is not a reason to keep hounding Tiller about it.
I don’t know any nurse or medical professional that ALWAYS documents to the letter. It’s hard to do even if you feel you’re doing the best at it you possibly can. And many older nurses resent all the paperwork that keeps them from performing their jobs.
But we know there are reasons the paperwork has to be just so. I have been teased by my coworkers about ‘writing books’ when I had documented. I said laugh all you want, I’m CYA- and even then I’d still be afraid to go before the court. And I do not care at all for charting by exception, too easy to forget to document something important, everything looks so generic.
What do you think would happen if Tiller was run out of business like you want him to be?
Do you really think putting him out of business is a good thing?
I just find it odd that Fulston likes to take credit for several things she doesn’t do – why would she not have publicized the investigations and I am assuming the prosecutions for the underage sex with a minor child? I have no desire to protect Kline – I just feel that Tiller should be under the law like any other doctor. Doctors that I have talked to share this opinion. Some of them feel he has ran a shady operation for several years and put enough money into political campaigns that he is immune from inquiries.
I hope that is not the case. If he broke the law then the case should continue. But Kline has not been honest about where he is going with all this and if he really wanted an unbiased look at the evidence he would have named someone else as a special prosecutor. I just hope it all gets resolved soon one way or the other
Brenda,I don’t know, at one point I thought it would be best if Tiller was thoroughly investigated – perhaps then his critics would be satisfied. But I think the preceding is unlikely. I recall talking to a paranoid schizophrenic who was convinced that his food was poisoned. I thought I knew how to help him, so I ate part of his tray. He looked at me very suspiciously and said, “you knew which part of the meal was not poisoned.” With some people, you can’t win – is my point; and maybe you’re right the sooner it is over, the better.
Well, Steven, you did not die so I was obviously right about that.
The Wichita Eagle is providing more evidence for:
The Left-Leaning and Unprofessional Kansas Press Maligns and Impugns Phill Klinehttp://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2006/12-18.htm
Why does Wollen repeat Democratic campaign talking points from 2002, but does not give evidence of how Kline failed any duties as the Attorney General? Wasn’t the Star, and now the Eagle, just giving free PR to a left-leaning Republican group? Can other groups write an “As I See It” and get their phone number and web site address published, or is this reserved by the press for only left-leaning groups?
What is known about the Kansas Traditional Republican Majority?Has the press done ANY research about this group?
This article needs to be updated, but provides many details:
Political Profile of Members of “Kansas Traditional Republican Majority”http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2005/12-08/index.htm
At least two members of the KTRM Board of Directors gave healthy political donations to BOTH Kathleen Sebelius for Governor, and Paul Morrison for Attorney General. Is this how Republicans help get Republicans elected? One KTRM Board Member from Wichita, Mary Knecht, even donated $100 to Dr. Tiller’s ProKanDo PAC in 2005.
Why are pro-life folks labeled “single issue” when KTRM is a single issue group focusing on being anti-pro-life?
According to Andy Wollen’s recent letter to JoCo precinct committees, KTRM is “a chapter of the Republican Main Street Partnership”, http://www.republicanmainstreet.org/.
Look at the chapters of Republican Main Street:
CaliforniaFloridaGeorgiaIllinoisKansas*MaineMichiganNew HampshireNorth CarolinaOregonPennsylvaniaVirginiaWashington*
*Why is Kansas only one of three groups with a web site?
Where are our neighbors in Oklahoma, Missouri, Nebraska or Colorado? Why don’t they have chapters?
Could it be that KTRM, as the country-club Republicans in Kansas, are trying to import east and west coast values to Kansas, and they really don’t represent the majority of Kansans?
And just what would KTRM do without the funding it gets from the Greater Kansas City Chamber of Commerce?http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2006/07-17/index.htm
From 2004:http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2004/08-04.htm
Will the Greater Kansas City Chamber flood Johnson County with Missouri money to take out conservatives in Johnson County and all of Kansas in 2008? Should we just send all our Kansas tax dollars to Missouri now?
Oh Meadowlark I know you can figure this out…trying to paint moderates as only pro-choice…ONE MEMBER DONATED omg! You do know that statistically 30 some percent of republicans are pro-choice and 30 precent of democrats are anti-choice?
Moderates voting across party lines to send a message that they will NOT vote for hardliners in their own party. They won’t elect radical republicans who have hijacked their party.
Why does Kansas have a website? For the same reason that Kansas has a million anti-choice sites…the issue is HUGE here. Ever think of that? Try some common sense please.
Looking at KsM’s list of states I see a couple of major Midwest states and several in the South. (Yea, I know that much of the South is geographically ‘east coast’ but geopolitically it is its own region) Having grown up in the South as a Republican I think I can speak to the situation there. At one time the GOP was the party of reform and clean government down there. However, in recent decades the GOP has been taken over by the old “Dixiecrat”-type southern Democrats. I think that explains the schism shown by the existence of a “Main Street” group within the party.
IL, MI, and even PA (in many ways) are old-line industrial midwestern states. PA has an “east coast” portion (Philadelphia) but Harrisburg-Greenburg-Pittsburgh and classic Miswestern cities.
Trying to label this as being all east and west coast is rather inaccurate.
When did I say he should be run out of business, PM?Because I don’t like abortion and I will continue to support alternatives to abortion, I’ve been more than vilified on this blog and accused of outrageous things like supporting the extremists who harass patients, bomb clinics, and attempt to murder abortionists. You guys are so blinded by your prejudice and narrow mindedness that you will demonize any one who doesn’t agree with you on this issue. You are so horrified that someone tried to kill Tiller, but yet you think nothing of the fact that he kills unborn babies as his chosen career. Seems pretty hypocritical to me, no matter how you choose to spin it.Just like any medical professional, if he has done things that are illegal, he should be held accountable. God knows he certainly has more protection than most doctors, because he’s completely surrounded by all his lawyers and loyalists who think he’s some sort of fucking martyr who is performing some great service to society and being persecuted for it. Personally, I’m sick of him being regarded as this untouchable holy grail who’s shit doesn’t stink. And I’m really sick of those of you who worship him as some sort of savior to women. I think he sucks.
Mary, a fetus is not an “un-born baby”. It is just a fetus. If you associate yourself with the anti-choice, rapture right, you get what you deserve.
Though I disagree with her position and I feel she is more emotionally attached to this issue than she lets on, I think some of you might want to back off Mary a bit.
I was formerly “pro life”. It was the extremists and hypocrites on that side that drove me away. I am now very much pro choice.
Mary is still pro choice. Let’s not push her into the “enemy” camp just because she is on their side of the fence.
“It’s just a fetus”, and what about that isn’t human to you? Does a fetus have a heartbeat? Does a fetus produce brainwaves?Does a fetus feel pain?Doesn’t matter how you spin it, a fetus is still human.Take off your blinders, BD, you might see something that will make you uncomfortable.
Sorry JR, I’ve been in the pro-choice trenches from the start. There is no middle ground. Either you’re pro-choice or you’re anti-choice.I’m glad you saw the error of your ways, but I will never back off an attack on anyone who is anti-choice, ever.
No JR, I’m not prochoice. I support alternatives to abortion, not abortion.I’m a realist, though. I don’t believe outlawing abortion will stop it. Outlawing abortion will just cause women to die trying to terminate their pregnancies.
I wear no blinders Mary.
I am fully aware of the conditions of a fetus.
The choice to terminate a pregnancy is protected by the SCOTUS. If you don’t want to have an abortion, don’t have one.
“a fetus is not an “un-born baby”. It is just a fetus.” -Blaidd Drwg
If it helps you sleep at night. But you know better.
You see JR, I was correct.
outlander, I sleep well every night with the knowledge that I support a woman’s right to make reproductive decisions on her own.
BD, your wrong. The issue isn’t black and white, although I’m sure your simple thinking is.Attack me all you like, you really don’t seem to have much ammunition, moron.
You give me plenty of ammunition Mary.
Just because it’s legal, that doesn’t mean it right. The quick and easy solution often turns out to be the hardest one to live with.I’m always so amazed how pro abortion men are, just look at the blog, most of you who disagree with me are men. Maybe it’s not a woman’s right that concerns you as much as the idea that if abortion wasn’t so accepted, you might have to take some responsibility. Just look at how the murder of pregnant women has increased over the last few years, in several cases, the mother wouldn’t get an abortion, so the fathers of their babies killed them.It’s just so much easier to equate a woman getting an abortion with getting her tooth pulled or her hair cut, that helps guys like you to sleep better at night, I’m sure.
Outie is the one to worry about BD.
HE is NOT in any way pro life. And though he has never come out and said so to my knowledge, HE would outlaw abortion if he could.
I’m pointed the right way. I just save my heavies for those in the bunker. People in “no mans land” get enough of it in the back from their own.
No I’m talking about your brains cells.
It is not black and white, but the issue is in this case. Mary I do understand your conflict, but you can’t have it both ways.
And you support the camp that wants to see Tiller out of business and that abortion is murder. Trust me, if he was doing things that I felt were wrong, I’d back down on this too, I support women. And all I see this as is a bunch of bull. And the women who I know who work with and know Tiller say he’s a good honest man. The women who tell me this are good honest women.
Why is it that the only people you hear coming out against Tiller are people in the OR camp? How come, with as many women as he’s helped in Wichita alone, why aren’t more on here talking about how ‘bad’ he is?
All we have are these nutty stories that appear on OR websites, which are really very much lacking in credibility, much like Doug pointed out.
I would also absolutely support a clinic that did NOT judge a woman on her decision, who gave the straight facts to a woman in a crisis pregnancy. Will she feel guilt? Remember Planned parenthood does those things also. If a woman chooses to want to keep her baby, they’re all for that as well…estatic about it. But they’re also not going to demonize her if she wants an abortion.
Mary?
“if abortion wasn’t so accepted, you might have to take some responsibility.”
Um….I am a single dad.This society supports me in that in absolutely 0 way.
Ha! I can’t believe you! Planned parenthood isn’t estatic when a woman decides to keep her baby…where the hell did you hear that? I had a friend who went there, after the pregnancy test came back positive, they only talked to her about abortion.I took a client of mine who was mentally retarded there to get her on birth control after we found out she was sexually active, and they refused to help her…so I took her to United Urban Ministries (run by the Methodists) and THEY helped her get on birth control.I have a friend who worked for Tiller, and she has a very different opinion of him. She told me that the only thing sad about his clinic getting bombed is that he wasn’t in it when it happened.Choices doesn’t judge or demonize a woman who seeks an abortion, you need quit listening to all the pro-choice spin and open your mind a little. Go visit them, they’d be glad to talk to you about what they do.
Oh come on JR! What support so you expect? You fathered the child, you need to take responsibility for him. If you fell down on your responsibilty, then the system would be there for him.I had three children (two were unplanned), I raised them and worked 3 jobs to put them through college. I never expected society to take care of my kids, we had them, we took care of them.I never saw my children as a burden that the government should take responsibility for.
Where’d you go, BD?Come back and fight like a man!!
Damn, you guys give up easy!
OK, I’m going to bed, but I’ll be back tomorrow.
Dang I wish it was anybody but you with that last post Mary.
“I never saw my children as a burden that the government should take responsibility for.”
And neither do I see anyone should be required to bring a child into a society that does not take accountability for all its citizens.
Gotcha.
You’re older than me Mary. Things are different now. There is far LESS societal support than there used to be and also far less opportunity to succeed on your own. With the benefit of hindsight, if I could have seen what was coming? I probably would have advocated my son be aborted.
I know it is easy to pontificate from on high. Reality is quite a different thing.
See Mary, that’s the kind of attitude we expect from the pro-lifers.
Planned parenthood wouldn’t get your MR patient on birth control? Was her guardian there? I do not believe PP only talks about abortion.
I listened to Doug’s taped recording of the patient in Choices clinic. I felt it was very strange. Of course, when I was a teen in a crisis pregnancy, I didn’t talk to anyone in any clinic about it, so I wouldn’t know personally. I knew I didn’t want to go to birthright (the only clinic at the time in our area) because I knew they’d try to influence my decision.
Mary were you ever a SINGLE parent? If not, then don’t chastise JR, because it’s a lot different. And I dont think he meant support as in financially, but that a little help would sure be nice. It’s that attitude that ‘you had this baby, now you’re stuck with it as your responsibility (read punishment)’ that is sending these girls to the clinic in the first place.
Jr: Sorry, but there is no gentle way to say this. Does your son know that his Dad thinks so little of him, or is such an excuse making woos, that he would have advocated aborting him rather than have to struggle a bit?
Please don’t tell him.
“If you fell down on your responsibilty, then the system would be there for him.”
Well gee how about some help to keep me from “falling down on my responsibility”?
Yes do come on back Mary.
Come on back and demand that jobs pay a parent enough to live AND afford day care.
Come on back and tell employers NOT to punish workers for taking care of their kids.
Come on back and give me a reason to teach my kid to hope. Cause this society aint offering him a whole lot of that.
The folks you need to take to task are on your side of the fence Mary.
Well said political mom.
Mary?
When you come back? Remember that political mom and I USED to be on your side.
Someone we both know once told me that he believed the abortion issue required a “change of hearts”.
Aint my “side” suffering from a lack of compassion.
On the contrary outlander.
I don’t have the heart to tell my kid the truth.
I don’t know how to explain to him that he is not a person. He gets to grow up in a nation that treats him as a “human resource”.
I don’t know how it is I teach him to “play the game”.
Because I was never good at playing games.
I don’t know how I explain to him that sick people with money should live and that poor sick people should die.
Maybe you and Mary can help me with that?
“Jr: Sorry, but there is no gentle way to say this. Does your son know that his Dad thinks so little of him, or is such an excuse making woos, that he would have advocated aborting him rather than have to struggle a bit?”
Outed, even for you, this is pretty sad bullshit. JR, our “friend” mr. oultander is such a bigoted asshole, that whatever he says, should be ignored. I apologize to you, for his nonsense.
well outlander, I’ve talked to my daughter about my stance. She agrees. She is the one who lived without me while I worked, she’s the one who suffered when I cried about not being able to pay the bills. She understands the depression, the hardships, she lived it.
She doesn’t feel like she was a mistake, and I don’t either. I love her, I just wanted to be in a position to provide better. The timing was just wrong.
She understands the issue, and if she ever becomes pregnant, she’ll also know the issues she will have to face, and the decision she will make for herself will be her own.
So far she hasn’t made the same mistakes I have, so maybe, just maybe, she won’t have to make the decision. When she gets pregnant for the first time, it’ll be when she really wants to.
Oh, and my daughter, she’s pro-choice.
LMFAO, I had to share. I just went and asked my daughter “how would you feel if your mother aborted you”..
She was in the middle of something, and she looked up at me quizzitively, and said “uh, I wouldn’t”.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/local/crime_courts/16353871.htm
Did anyone notice, the new ‘independent’ HA! filed motions to vacate the decison by the judge.
Thanks, PM. Your story demonstrated my point.
Happy New Year to you and your family.
Steven, Sometimes you have to have the nerve tell it like it is. I don’t know whether to pity or dislike JR for his irrational hate. I’d like to help him see the light. To know that there is hope for him and his son if he can just overcome his stinking negative thinking.
And you, hotshot, accuse me of being a bigot. What am I bigoted against? Abortion justified based on a person’s own selfish convenience? OK, guilty!
BTW, what do you stand for Steven???
I stand for the national anthem,the opening hym,and the halleluiah chorus.
Politcal Mom: I congratulate you on making life your choice. I’m sure your daughter is grateful.
Thanks the defense Steven.
But I get what I always expect from such as Outlander.
Outlander is a piuos hypocrite. God makes everything = as far as he is concerned.
It feels good that. It can talk you out of concern for anything…..or anybody.
That about right Outie?
Well Outie God aint answering the questions I put to you. Why not you give it a shot?
Questions Jr? Ask a good one with an honest premise and I’ll take a stab at it. Most things though, you will have to figure out for yourself.
And THAT mr. outlander is what is called a cop out.
But it is the same advice you would give to the mother of a baby you have forced her to carry to term as well. So you are consistent.
Just be honest about it up front ok? Tell that desperate young woman who wants an abortion that she will have to find HER OWN ANSWERS. Leave it at that.
I get it now, humans would prefer to be aborted than struggle. Life has no value. No one should have to take responsibility for their children. The government should guarantee us all happiness and success. There is no hope. Life sucks.Thanks for all the enlightenment, guys.
JR, I can’t believe you can look at your son and think you and he’d be better off if he was aborted. From your attitude, you just may be right.
Sorry PM, I just could never see a child as being someone’s “punishment”, but JR just changed my mind.I hope when you’re my age your world isn’t as jaded as you see it now.
“BTW, what do you stand for Steven???”
Thanks for asking. The truth and respect for fellow humans sans irrational hatred.
And yourself???
Ok Mary
Gloves off.
I did ask you and the outlander for some sign of hope. You show me none. You didn’t answer a single thing I put to you. He and YOU just pointed a finger of blame at me.
Mary? I’ve seen where it is that you live. Get there on social work did you? Somehow I’m not thinking so. You never mention how much money you may have married.
I illustrated how things are different for me than they were for you. Why don’t you share in kind? Don’t you have anything to offer other than pointing a finger?
And even in your social work, you routinely whine about how lazy or irresponsible those folks are. And you call political mom jaded?
Get off my side Mary. You aint acquainted with it. If you ever were you’ve long forgotten it. Get back with outlander and Hank and your people. And keep your damned sanctimony to yourself.
Sorry J R,
I consider you a friend. The above rant, was not what you intended; at least I hope not…
Mary is a nurse, not a social worker.
Making this a class war is not what we need to do here. IMHO.
With few exceptions, here in the U.S.A., we want what is best for all of us.
If there are those out there, who want to make this a class war, bring it on, we’ll kick your ass…
Thanks.
Some one said they had never met anyone pro choice that disliked Tiller. As a person I can’t stand him. He is arrogant and likes all the publicity he gets. However I support his right to do what he does.I don’t think it helps much to argue over the humanity of a fetus. It is human, alive, feels pain, ect. I think if you have an abortion you need to be honest with yourself about that. I think sometimes people dehumanize the child to make it easier to do. I think of the fetus as a potential life because in most cases it would not be viable outside the mother’s womb. That is why I also have such a problem with 3rd trimester abortions. However I made the decision to abort when I was 16 and I do think it was the right choice for me. I could not bear to go through bringing the child of my rape into the world.JR,I do understand what you are saying. I have a friend who has a Downs Syndrome child who has the mentality of a 3 year old. I watch her struggle to care for him and how much harder it gets for her and him as he grows. He is 13 now but he is still in diapers and will never be able to function in any other setting but with his parents. I have to be honest and tell you I don’t think I would have given birth if I had been faced with having a child like him. I admire her a lot but even she admits she probably would not have chosen to have him had she known.Go ahead now and call me all the names you want. I think JR was just being honest about how he feels.But JR just because Mary lives in a nice place doesn’t mean that she is elitist. I have known her for many years and she takes a stand for what she believes is right no matter what anyone thinks and so do you. She and I both started out poor, worked hard and got an education because we wanted to make a better life for our kids. She has 3 of the best kids I know and they love and admire her. She has been there for me in some of my worst hours so trust me you couldn’t find a better friend. She has also kicked me in the butt a few times too. As she always says she is a realist.
Brenda, I agree with what you say, there are worse things than abortion, but it is the denial of someone else’s life. That’s the part of it that the prochoice extremists refuse to acknowledge. Had I been in your shoes, I would have made the same choice. But I was blessed in my life, my parents were there for me no matter what I did. I wish it would have been different for you. What I admire about you the most is that you took your experience as a child and an adolescent and rather than remain a victim and allow life to beat you down, you choose to become very strong and successful, both as a professional and as a person.I’m a better person because you are my friend, because you make me look at things from a different, often more mature, point of view.
I’m sorry JR, but I had to laugh when you suggested I married money!! Have you considered that maybe we live in a nice house because I’M the one who is financially successful? Talk about being judgemental and making assumptions! It would be a nice to think I have what I have because I married money and everything was handed to me on a silver platter. It just so happens that my husband was poorer than me when we got married. We had $300 in the bank and I was pregnant. I was 18 and he was 21, and we had nothing but each other. What we have now is due to REALLY hard work and not blaming our hard times and our mistakes on anyone but ourselves. Neither of our parents had any money, we supported ourselves completely while we struggled to raise our kids and worked toward the careers we have now.I’ll admit I was taken aback by your statement about your son. He is a beautiful child, I can’t imagine you’d rather he had never been born. It’s sad that you feel so hopeless about his future.What answer do you want me to give you, JR? The fact that you have no hope has more to do with you than society. Life IS what you choose to make it, and things aren’t always going to be on your terms. Who guaranteed that life was going to be fair or easy? I don’t have the answers for you, JR, because what you choose to gain from life is totally up to you, and as long as you don’t think you can do anything to make your life better, then you can’t. I believe your attitude has a lot to do with where you are right now, as long as you continue to blame society for your unhappiness, you will always be unhappy.
God bless you Brenda Shull. I don’t think anyone should ever criticize a decision like the one you had to make. It is an exception that I support.
It also sounds like you recognize that a true friend like Mary won’t always tell you what you want to hear, but what you need to hear. We all need a friend like that.
Good and decent post, outlander. Thank you.
So would I be wrong for feeling the same way as Brenda’s friend?
According to some on here, yes.
PM,What are your talking about? Sorry, if I am being obtuse.
” I have a friend who has a Downs Syndrome child who has the mentality of a 3 year old. I watch her struggle to care for him and how much harder it gets for her and him as he grows. He is 13 now but he is still in diapers and will never be able to function in any other setting but with his parents. I have to be honest and tell you I don’t think I would have given birth if I had been faced with having a child like him. I admire her a lot but even she admits she probably would not have chosen to have him had she known. ”
I was referring to this. My son has autism, our lives practically stopped just to raise him for the first five years. Financially it killed us. I love my son dearly, and I’m very thankful it is finally starting to get easier…but if I were to do it over again, or end up pregnant again…no way.
Pmom,
I deeply respect and appreciate your difficult work that involves providing a home for those you love.
You are not alone. A friend of mine who is a psychiatrist at Dartmouth, has a child who is bipolar. He told me he would look for ways to stay at work, so he wouldn’t have to go home and face the chaos and anguish that awaited him at home.
I appreciate your efforts. God bless you.
PMom,
Have you reviewed any of the reseach which suggests that autism is a hypermale phenotype?
Just curious on your thoughts about that…
Hmm, I can see some here haven’t ever helped out in the Special Olympics. :)
I’ve never walked in your shoes, PM, but I can imagine how challenging it would be to raise a special needs child. The emotional rollar coaster would certainly take it’s toll. You have my empathy and respect.
We have a good friend who has a sister with down’s syndrome. With all her challenges, she has has a happy and fulfilling life. The biggest challenge for her parents was learning to let her go, they had such a strong need to protect her from the world, but they knew that she needed to be alllowed to grow up as much as possible. They lived in a small town that had no support services for those like Kim, so she left home when she was in high school and moved into a group home with others like her.She managed to have a job and even a checking account, now she works for her brother and she is happy with her life. Life is challenging for all of us, some much more than others, but through Kim’s experience, her whole family grew. Sometimes those who are challenged like Kim can be more of a blessing than a burden. I know her family would agree.
I think we all have challenges and that hindsight is 20/20. PM, I admire you for what you have done and been through. Maybe that’s why we don’t get to know what our lives hold because we’d all give up too soon and miss out on the good things.JR,I hope things get better for you and you find the joy that is out there.
That’s just it Steven. That’s how I ended up on message boards to begin with, as a means of escaping the constant screaming and have some adult interaction. Work out of the home, I would have WELCOMED it had there been someone else who could have provided for him.
And no, I’ve never even heard of that research, will you provide me a link? What an interesting theory.
It is challenging Mary, but I have to tell you honestly, there were (and still sometimes are) many times when I just didn’t think I could take this anymore- and then he’d make a huge new leap, or say or do something really cute, and the joy I got from even the smallest tiniest thing, would melt away those feelings. It’s not sympathy I want, it’s understanding. I just want people to understand why or how I could feel the way I do. And I do feel way differently.
We’re only human PM, we all have the same needs and the same feelings. Sounds like you’re doing well with the challenges life has dealt you, please don’t feel guilty about any negative feelings, any of us would feel the same in your situation. Don’t beat yourself up for being human, you’re fine.My kids weren’t challenged in the way your son is, but believe me there were times when I wanted to ship them all to China! There are times when we just don’t like our kids, I think that’s just a normal part of being a parent. Anyone who would deny that makes you wonder what else they lie about.Your son is blessed to have a loving, supportive mom.
PM,Hang in there. I know you probably have plenty of people to talk to but if you ever want to talk just e-mail me. You are obviously a strong woman and a survivor
Thanks Brenda and Mary, but I just want people to realize that the playing field is NOT level, that some DO have bigger hurdles…and we should try to help those who have it harder without condemning them.
Help by providing opportunities.
I do know that everyone has obstacles, I’m just saying that your obstacles are probably bigger than, say, Paris Hilton, and mine are probably a bit bigger than yours. And there are many many who have even bigger ones than I.
Do I feel like I’ve been screwed over, yes, because I did bust my butt to try to get somewhere better, and it was taken…then to have this on top of it.
My best analogy is that we’re all in the ditch trying to climb a mountain. Whereas one person has climbing boots and a lower slope, someone else might have no arms and a steep cliff.
And it just seems like those with the boots and the lower slope look down upon the ones with no arms and shout down ‘hey but I did it, it wasn’t that hard, what’s your problem!’
Good analogy, PM…”there but for the grace of God go I”.