Ever since former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage identified himself as the primary media source of CIA agent Valerie Plame’s name — a leak motivated apparently by a love for gossip rather than an urge to discredit a White House critic — the case has seemed like much ado about very little. So it’s uncomfortable to see jury selection begin for the related trial of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby (in photo), Vice President Dick Cheney’s former chief of staff, on perjury and obstruction of justice charges. Then again, whatever happens to Libby, there already is an important moral to this story, beyond the one about not outing CIA agents. As special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald put it at the time of Libby’s indictment in 2005: "When citizens testify before grand juries, they are required to tell the truth. Without the truth, our criminal justice system cannot serve our nations or its citizens. The requirement to tell the truth applies equally to all citizens, including persons who hold high positions in government."
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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131 Comments
Or, don’t try to cover up a wrongful act. See, e.g., Watergate.
Since when is telling the truth under oath needed? Has something changed since the last administration?
Only in Fleettwood’s mind could you equate a consensual blowjob with outing a covert CIA operative….
For one, the lie wasn’t about the BJFor two, she wasn’t exactly covert
If the CIA says she was COVERT, dumbass, then she was COVERT. Who the hell are you to say differently?
She was assigned stateside AT THE TIME.
Fucking moron.
BTW – If the lie wasn’t about the blowjob, what was it?
Seems to be a lot of “foamers” today.
WS -
Sigh – I know you people are smarter than this, yet you continue to mischaracterize Clinton’s circumstance. That’s not accidental.
Clinton was not impeached for a BJ. He was impeached for lying under oath in a deposition taken pursuant to a federal lawsuit. As a matter of law, it doesn’t matter what the lie was about. Clinton was under oath. He lied. Period. Case closed.
If Libby lied under oath, prosecute him. Like Clinton, it doesn’t matter what the lie was about.
(VT would call me if I didn’t put in this disclaimer, so-): However, – a lie must be “material.” Whether this lie was material, given the source (Armitage), remains to be seen.
In Clinton’s case, given the nature of the lawsuit at issue, Clinton’s lie was clearly material. Whether he should have been impeached over it is another matter.
Sigh………..
GM, this is Fleet’s post:
For one, the lie wasn’t about the “BJ”
And this was my reply:
“BTW – If the lie wasn’t about the blowjob, what was it?”
I did not state that he was impeached for getting a little head.
Point taken.
GMC -it is my understanding that the term ’sex’ had been defined for purposes of the deposition as ‘intercourse’. If that is the case, did he lie?
Now, when he went on TV and wagged his finger at us – HE LIED.
Are you people still defending the indefensible? Still wiggalling around about how “sex” was defined? Clinton was a liar.
Let’s all be sure to watch and critique Dick Cheney and George W. Bush as they give their sworn testimony to tell the truth. Or will they somehow manage to get out of this, like they have so many other times?
How many free passes do we give these two for not having to swear to the tell the truth?
Or will they both pull a Reagan – I don’t remember?
Definition is 99% of the law.
tee hee
Do you mean Hillary “I don’t remember”?
hmmmm . . .
IIRC; the Court found him in contempt. And the Arkansas bar disbarred him. I’d guess they decided it was, indeed, a “lie.”
Thanks GMC. Not being a lawyer and also not having dug into this case I really didn’t know. I do know that I tried that line on my wife I’d end up a soprano!
hmmm,
The Bobbit cross examination method by the female in a married couples home is a snippy matter and trial runs are discouraged. :)
hahaha!
;^)
My punisment for Clinton was simple – give Hillary Bobbit’s knife and a pre-approved pardon!
BDP fleet,
“For two, she wasn’t exactly covert”
Only according to your Rev. Moonie owned Washington Times, NewsMax, etc.
From the glint in Hiliary’s eyes back then, I suspect she didn’t need any weapon to properly make Bill rightfully miserable for a long time!
She was way past a pit bull on steroids!!
So if Hillary used the ‘I don’t remember’ then it is okay for Republicans? But Reagan used it first and got away with it – so why not? Isn’t that the theory of politics now – Fleetwood?
The ends justify the means?
Reagan had Alzheimer’s
It was stressed at that time that he was not suffering from Alzheimers. But even if he did have it, then why was he allowed to remain president?
What’s missing from this analysis is that a leak DID come from the VP’s office; assuming what’s alleged is correct, that’s why Libby took the extraordinary step of lying under other.
Maybe Cheney knew the info was already out there, but it still stinks.
And that is the $64,000 question. I’m sure Libby’s trial will shed light and all the cockroaches will come out. That is, if Cheney does not sidestep justice and does not have to testify under oath.
IIRC, Cheney is on the witness list; doesn’t mean he’ll be called, of course, and if called, doesn’t mean his testimony will be “live”. I rather suspect a video deposition will be used to obtain his testimony, subject to cross-examination, given his office.
“So if Hillary used the ‘I don’t remember’ then it is okay for Republicans? But Reagan used it first and got away with it – so why not? Isn’t that the theory of politics now – Fleetwood?
The ends justify the means?”
Posted by: cs | January 16, 2007 at 02:41 PM
cs-Hillary did use the “I can’t remember”Reagan probably didn’t remember.The Bush and Cheney part from your 1:23 post is your imagination. If the Dems want to charge Bush or Cheney, Bring It!Bush lied, people died- Hogwash!
Fleetwood – can you prove Reagan really did not remember or are you hiding behind his Alzheimers disease?
On one hand the Repubicans tout Reagan as a genius and then on the other hand he does not remember things. I would think that if I circumvented Congress to do the Iran-Contra affair, that would be a pretty memorable event in my life.Maybe the Democrats are waiting for the right timing to bring it on (as you put it). Why bring down the emperor and his cohort when our troops are still in Iraq. Maybe, just maybe, they are waiting for proof positive of them lying under oath and that is the way Democrats will finally get them both.
Don’t say it cannot happen or just wishful thinking. Personally, I think it is a sad commentary that we have two people in office that have continually mislead the American people but yet there are still lives in danger because of their mishandling of the Iraq war.
Clinton lied about sex. In some small way we have all done that…most of the times we lie so we can get it….not afterwards.Any person willing to tear down a government over a blowjob and any subsequent mishandling, including lying about the blowjob, does not deserve to have electricty nor toilet paper.Outing CIA officers is a high crime…as is the coverup.Blowing your love liquid on a blue dress is tawdry supermarket gossip rag trash.Whomever does not get laid or believes they have always been honest and their sex partner has been honest please get a one-way ticket to Disneyland…because you are Goofy.
Hate Clinton all you want….Bush is so awful, so despicable incompetent, that anything Clinton has done will pale in comparison to the lies and abuse of power Bush has stolen. The reason Laura has the shit eating grin on her face is because that expression froze on her face when GWB released gas and laughed while she was trying to give him some Monica time.
Bush is the one who should be on trial. And Cheney and Rumsfeld. They should be tried for treason.
I used to think their was some sign of intellegent life on this blog, but with the exception of Fleetwood and VT I haven’t found any signs lately. The democrits have lied about so many things that I can’t list them all here. Armitage is the real culprit and after a lot of wasted time this will be the outcome. Libby was handling many important matters at that time and some desk jockey at the CIA wasn’t on his radar screen. Joe Wilson is a bad joke who got more than his fifteen minutes of fame and is again a nobody. The Wilson’s filed a lawsuit against Cheny and Libby and then found out it was their old friend Richard Armitage who spilled the beans in the first place. What an absolute waste of time, money and blog space.
Damn it Jim! I have told you many, many times! Get it right! Republicans do not engage in ORAL SEX!
That would be bad. A big no no.
The Bible tells me so.
The absolute was to time and space Germ, is you and the useful oxegen you are using that could benefit someone deserving.
I bet you were one of the one’s claiming that Bill Clinton should have gone to jail for his parsed answer about getting head from Monica.
Actually I think that it was his inablility to remember what happened with Paula Jones because her’s was the federal lawsuit that was pending. The BJ question was just to establish that he was indeed a sexual predator and should be registered so that other unsuspecting parents wouldn’t allow their daughters go to work for him.
ksgrm – I think the predator label would only apply if she were a minor. In fact, I read that she had done similar things with professors to get grades. Monica was no innocent little girl.
Receiving consensual oral sex or making a pass makes one a sexual predator?
Monica was 22 years old.
Paula Jones was never given a poor performance review or was denied a pay raise. She was the one that came forward – she was never outed.
God, GRM, you are really full of it. Go sit on the bench with Fleetwood for a while.
Time out for stupidity.
Christ, and they accuse me of abusing drugs…..
A sexual predator??? Last I knew, every one of the women in question were ADULTS, not children.
And I’d let my daughter go work for him today.
And anyone who respects what Enema has to say, has a screw loose.
PM,Predator might not be the right word. Leach might be better. Any boss who elicits this type of behavior from a subordinate is quilty of misbehavior and being a woman who supports womens right I am suprised that you would condone this. There are indeed laws against what he did with Paula Jones, Juanita Broderick (rape), and the democrat woman is the whitehouse that he was feeling up on the same day her husband was committing suicide. What a guy!!
WS what you are implying about ML must have been printed in one of those supermarket tabloids. It gives me a better idea of how your thought process works. By the way she wasn’t 22 when this happened.
I still say Libby won’t be found quilty. They was no crime. The questions he was being asked were about something that never happened. Funny he couldn’t remember that.
You are trulyt full of it GRM.
Try using facts…..
Lewinsky was a College Graduate (required to be a WH intern) when she was giving head to the President.
Juanita Broderick came up with the “rape” story ten years after the fact. Even Kenneth Starr did not believe her story. Starr would have jumped all over that if he thought there was a GERM of truth to it.
Kathleen Wiley? – Before and AFTER the incident, she was sending LOVE LETTERS to Clinton.
AFTER the fact she was telling people she wanted to be ” the president’s girlfriend.”
After the fact!
And if Monica wasn’t 22, how old was she?
“There are indeed laws against what he did with Paula Jones, Juanita Broderick (rape), and the democrat woman is the whitehouse that he was feeling up on the same day her husband was committing suicide. What a guy!!”
IF in fact they happened. YOUR claims sound like they ” have been printed in one of those supermarket tabloids.” They have never been proven.
If he did rape anyone he definitely should be in prison.
bah, the Clinton thing again.
Although being staunchly Republican the whole Lewisky thing turned my stomach and I was opposed to the impeachment process of President Clinton. I even wrote a letter to the President explaining my opinion.
I also stated that I believe the process of lieing under oath should have been dealt in the State of Arkansas and under the purview of the Arkansas State Bar Ethics Standards.
I felt that Congress had overstepped its authority running this matter under a microscope.
My dislike for Gingrich grew much larger after that.
There you have it, an admission from the enemy camp. heh
ksgrm<—sold out her ideals for $ : (
JM I actually agree with you about the Clinton thing. It should have been handled by Arkansas. I lost all respect for Gingrich when he did what he did. I don’t look at bad behavior and then look at his party affiliation before deciding whether or not it was wrong. That is also the reason I am against this Libby trial. It is a waste of federal time and money just so a few men in power can strut their stuff and look important.
Popup what money did I get?
Thank you for the honesty JM I appreciate it.
And I do agree with women’s rights gram, and against sexual harrassment. I have issues with Paula Jones’s story. I think there was more to it than what was being said.
Clinton was a clod for cheating on his wife, there is no question about that. But I don’t feel he used his power to stalk women either- women are drawn to men of power and that’s really all there is to it- he just didn’t discourage it any.
And GRM, answer the question….
“And if Monica wasn’t 22, how old was she?”
You said that she was NOT 22, so howthefuckold was she?
WS I found one source that said she was 21 and one that said she was 22 so I will acquiess and say she was 22 because you get more excited that I do. That doesn’t change what happened. The president asked her to falsify her testimony and lie to a grand jury and then did the same thing himself. Power is indeed a draw but a man of character will be above that. This thread isn’t about Clinton but Libby and I have heard very little about what exactly he did that was wrong.
Monica Samille Lewinsky (born July 23, 1973 in San Francisco) She worked at the White House in 1995-1996.
Thank you JM. I was wrong about her age.
“The president asked her to falsify her testimony and lie to a grand jury and then did the same thing himself.”
Excuse me, Germ, you are only 99.99 percent full of shit.
President Clinton did not ask Lewinsky tolie under oath – that is complete rubbish – just like your claim that she was not 22 years old.
Typical right wing crap – you folks brought up the Clinton angle and now you want to back away from it.
Why don’t you fill us in on the Wiley “FACTS” or the Broderick “FACTS.”
While you are at it, let’s hear some more about how Clinton was a BAD MAN and your boy, GWB is such a saint.
After you tell us all about it, explain Robin Lowman to us.
Hypocrit.
What did Libby do wrong? He lied under oath before a Grand Jury!
Remember, you Republicans wanted to remove a duly elected President of the United States of America for “PARSING” his answer in front of a Grand Jury.
Now you right wingers ask “oh, what did he do wrong???”
He fucking lied under oath!!!
Remember? We have to impeach! It’s the rule of law!!!! We have to! It’s our sacred duty!!!! It’s the rule of law!!!!
Hyprocrits.
WHAT did Libby lie about?
I looked up the Robin Lowman thing? What a crock. The usual “unnamed source” reported. I can make up anything I want and tell you an unnamed source told me it was true.
BC served out his term. He did lie. He cheated on his wife and held her up to public ridicule by allowing her to go on national TV and tell everyone he was innocent and it was a vast right wing conspiracy.
Sorry if I can’t admire a man like that.
Jesus H. Christ, GRM! He lied in front of the GJ! His defense is that he “FORGOT!”
He NEVER fucking denied that he gave FALSE information to the GJ.
He is using the Reagan defense.
Christ, try to actually READ the news before you make stupid, uninformed statements.
He couldn’t remember making a leak of information that never originated in his office. Re: Richard Armitage WS you just have to get it straight.
A thread to follow would be Robert Novak who wrote the original article and did not talk to Libby or Cheney about Valarie. IT CAME FROM RICHARD ARMITAGE.
I don’t remember what I didn’t do 6 months ago either.
DA,Dude…relax. Your (smallish) brain is about to explode.
Even Libby admits that he told jouralists that a COVERT CIA OPERATIVE was married to Joseph Wilson.
Even Scooter Libby admits that fact.
His lie was he DENIED that he did that.
You wanted to remove a president from office for (supposedly) lying to a GJ about a BJ, but you are willing to give Libby a pass?
I guess hypocrisy is contagious on the blog.
All of the fucking right winger have it today.
I don’t trust a grown man named Scooter.He’s an idiot for talking to the media in the first place.
I never wanted to impeach BC. I’m going to leave you to yourself WS. I hope you take blood pressure meds.
I don’t believe LIbby told anyone he told reporters about the desk jockey at the CIA. He said he didn’t remember having this conversation.
The trial will be very public but try to get your info from someone other that CNN so you can get the whole story.
Nobody died when Bill Clinton lied.
One of my fav sayings.
Well, GRM, the CIA said that she was a covert agent – who the fuck are you to claim that you know better than the agency?
As for BP – age 54, 120/8o, the same was it has been for forty years.
As for my news source – where do you get yours – World Net Daily?
But just out of curiousity, why should Clinton have been removed from office for rape, sexual intimidation, sexual harassment, being a predator, etc, but Libby gets a pass?
I don’t exactly understand the argument here.Libby’s lying under oath is certainly not better and no worse than Clinton’s if this is the charge.Libby however did the right thing and resigned his position, elected or not under the weight of the truth.
Libby resigned as required when he was indicted. Do you really think that a duly elected president should resign when accused?
If so, why are you not asking for the Bush resignation?
Has Bush been indicted?
I think that answers your own question doesn’t WSClark? :)
(noting the difference between indicted and accused)
WSf’ingClark
Wipe the foam from your mouth. Valerie Plame walked in the front door of CIA headquarters 5 days a week for four years. Only a D.U.mmy would call that covert. Use your brain if you effing have one.
“(noting the difference between indicted and accused)”
And Clinton was never indicted, either, moron.
“Only a D.U.mmy would call that covert”
Well, Fuckingidiot heckler, if the goddamned CIA said that she covert, she was fucking COVERT.
Who the fuck are you to question that?
Moron.
WSClark,
I’ve tried to be civil to you, but I guess you don’t want to be treated that way.
You have a serious anger issue problem identified by several people. Chill out dude.
“Chill out dude.”
And I have tried to be civil to you, JM. I have even gone as far to defend you and your “friends,” something that you choose to deny, since you “can’t find it on the thread.”
And no, I do not have an anger problem, I just fight back against right wingers. That is something that is very unusual for liberals, so I can understand your shock.
This is my country, too, JM and I have the right to defend my point of view despite those that would like to deny my rights.
And I will never “chill out” as long as people choose to attack my patriotism and my right to freedom of speech.
Heckler,
Are you trying to win the BDP spot?
There are a large # of undercover CIA agents who ALSO have a desk jobs at CIA.
WSClarkSo, your way of defending your rights is calling me a moron.
And answer the question, JM.
Really.
Clinton was NEVER indicted. Ever.
So play fair, JM. Your side has to learn to be on the losing side now.
Clinton was never indicted.
Now let’s address the issue with Bush.
No thanks WS Clark
I already posted my feelings on the Clinton impeachment. It is very obvious you didn’t read what I wrote about that.
Rather or not VP was a covert agent is irrelevant. Poor ol’ Scooter is not charged with ‘outing’ her. Nobody is. Even Armbruster (even though he admited ‘outing’ her) isn’t going to be charged with ‘outing’ her because there was no crime in ‘outing’ her.
If Scooter goes to trial it will be harder on Wilson than Scooter. Wilson’s lawyers have unsucessfully attempted to have him excused from testifying, he obviously doesn’t want to testify under oath. A very good idea for a known and proven liar.
Scooter was indicted on three separate charges. Stupid, convoluted charges based on many facts that have since been proven false. Fitzgerald has used many facts to prop up these charges in the indictment that have already been proven false.
In order to convict Scooter it will be necessary to convince a jury that Scooter is guilty base on the embarrassing convoluted case that Fitzgerald has concocted. It will be hard.
It is obvious that Fitzgerald was merely charging Scooter to use him as a lever to get to people higher up. Problem is, Scooter isn’t guilty and his boss isn’t guilty.
Scooter is all poor ol’ Fitzgerald has after months and months of investigations and millions of dollars, so the chances are the farce will continue. In the end all reasonable people will realize what a fool Fitzgerald is.
Hank
PS Even though irrelevant, the CIA has never said that VP was covert, as defined by the statute pertaining to the charges.
All I will say on calling for the resignation of the President is that with a 35% approval rating don’t you honestly think if there were any legitimate charges to be brought against him they already who have been and he would have been brought down?
Absolute bullshit, Hank.
The CIA had Valerie Plame clasified as a covert operative working in Africa as an expert on WMD.
You the fuck are you to dispute that clasification?
Mr. KIA – Clinton had a 67% approval rating and the Republican Party still impeached him.
Give us time – it’s only been a week.
My point was how much easier would it be to impeach Bush if there were any true charges vs. Clinton at this point, at least in the court of public opinion.
Give you time? Sure. Clock is ticking. Six months enough? Afterall he’s been in office going on 7 years.
“Armbruster (even though he admited ‘outing’ her)”
You’re meaning Richard Armitage, correct? He was deputy secretary of state under Colin Powell at the time.
Fitzgerald has a strong case that Libby was lying. Does it mean more than that? We’ll see, won’t we.
In Bob Woodward’s book _State of Denial_, he describes how Libby left the Whitehouse the day the charges were brought against him. He was on crutches, did not have a ride, and he was crying as he was leaving. Even if you were the most hardened Bush hater, you had to really pity this guy on that day.
“Give you time? Sure. Clock is ticking. Six months enough? Afterall he’s been in office going on 7 years.”
He has been in office for six years, but the Democrats have only controlled Congress for a week.
Give us time, we’ll treat your boy just like you treated ours.
Care to make a friendly wager for the charity of choice on impeachment?
Clinton 67% approval rating on the day he was impeached.
Bush >30% approval rating currently.
Clinton parsed his answer about a blowjob.
If the parties were reversed, you Republicans would be screaming for an EXECUTION not an impeachment.
If a Clinton staffer did what Libby did, you Republicans would want the Death Penalty.
You all know it and none of you have the necessary physical attributes to admit it.
Just flip the equation and get back to me….. If Clinton or a Clinton staffer had done what Bush has done, you folks would be demanding death – right after dismemberment.
WS you really have to quit reading those suupermarket tabloids. VP hadn’t left the country in over 4 years. It was her unemployed husband that she had the agency send to Africa so he could collect fodder for his book.
As I said before Germfuck, if the CIA said she was covert then she was FUCKING COVERT.
If a Clinton staffer had done what Libby did, you Republicans would be screaming for Death Penalties and Dismemberment.
But, because it was a Republican, you hypocrits make excuse upon excuse.
Jeez, Germ, you really are full of shit.
Can you recycle that shit? There’s enough to power a planet for the next decade.
WS, here is one for you to google: Craig Livingstone, a former bar bouncer, hired as the head of security for the white house by the Clintons. He asked for and received almost 900 confidental FBI files on various government officials. They were located in an unprotected area of the basement of the white house. Someone should have been prosecuted for this crime. Oh but that was the teflon pure as snow, Clintons. Don’t call us hypocrits.
Directly from the topic at hand:”When citizens testify before grand juries, they are required to tell the truth. Without the truth, our criminal justice system cannot serve our nations or its citizens. The requirement to tell the truth applies equally to all citizens, including persons who hold high positions in government.”
This is why Clinton was impeached. Democrats wanted to make it about sex (oral or otherwise.).
If there are criminal charges to be brought against the current President – to borrow a quote from the Commander in Chief – “Bring them on.”
teeheee
Clark, please calm down.
Well, Mr. KIA and your Grandma – both of you have blown it big time.
Mr. KIA wants to give a pass to Libby for lying in frot of a Grand Jury, but he didn’t want that pass to extend to a duly elected American President with a 67% approval rating.
Now Germ, on the other hand, has blown her statement about Kathleen Wiley, she has blown her statement about Paula Jones, she has blown her statement about Monica Lewinsky and she has blown just about everything else she has said.
If this trend continues – since she has blown pretty much everything – we will have to change the expression from “Monica” to “Germ.”
And that just won’t roll off your tongue quite the same, will it now Grand Ma?
For those of you that say VP was not covert. Why did the head of the CIA go to the Justice Dept. and ask for an investigation into the outing if she was only a “desk jockey”?Novak said he had two senior white house officials as sources for his article, one was Armitage, who was the other source. Some say it’s Rowe since he and Novak are so close.http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060918/corn
Shrewdly played Rhonda!
Oh baby you’ve uncovered and you are waving that right wing in the wind!
Dig up this bit of red meat and toss it into the pit. Actually this is one of the more minor of the offenses of the most evil and incompetent administrations in history.
Compared to what he is doing to the Constitution, the environment, and the American standard of living? The treasonous outing of a dedicated intelligence operative for political revenge seems petty.
Nice diversion though!
RHonda dearie? You can’t save him. bush is now known as the worst president possible. You and those who support him seem to be arrogantly PROUD of your stupidity. So be it. Sink with the SOB.
I don’t exactly understand the argument here.Libby’s lying under oath is certainly not better and no worse than Clinton’s if this is the charge.Libby however did the right thing and resigned his position, elected or not under the weight of the truth.
Posted by: Mr Kia | January 16, 2007 at 07:35 PM
How is this a pass? I do commend Libby for resigning, but he should also be punished by the judicial system for his perjury. And so should have Clinton (which his being disbared certainly was.)
I don’t exactly understand the argument here.Libby’s lying under oath is certainly not better and no worse than Clinton’s if this is the charge.Libby however did the right thing and resigned his position, elected or not under the weight of the truth.
Posted by: Mr Kia | January 16, 2007 at 07:35 PM
How is this a pass? I do commend Libby for resigning, but he should also be punished by the judicial system for his perjury. And so should have Clinton (which his being disbared certainly was.)
The Nation is so left I wouldn’t believe anything they write. If this is so, why didn’t Fitzgerald go after the other one. He went after LIbby because that was the only way to get close to the White House. When I see something from another source I’ll believe it. I heard Novak when he was interviewed by Tim Russert and he said there was no other source. It was Armitage all along and he didn’t know why Fitzgerald went ahead when he knew that early on. I really think it will come out at the trial that there was no crime committed by Libby.
“You the fuck are you to dispute that clasification?”
Dear WSClark,
I am one that does not suffer fools lightly. My comments to the BLOG were general in nature and not aimed at disparaging or defaming anyone in particular.
VP had worked at CIA head quarters for over four years. It was common knowledge in DC that she was a CIA employee. Common knowledge. For heaven’s sake, her parking space had her name on it.
No one is being charged with outing her, no one. The law concerning covert agents was not broken.
Until you can join in the discussions with me in a civil tone, this will be the last time I acknowledge your poor, angry, pitiful, childish, misguided existance. Your ignorant profanity adds nothing to the debate or yor credibility.
Hank
DA has serious anger management issues. These have been established for quite some time and proven repeatedly.
For Christ sake, Mr. KIA, Clinton was the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!.
He parsed his answer about a goddamned blowjob.
How can you possibly, in any manner, equate the COS of the VP to the President?
Really?
Libby lied to a GJ about revealing the ID of a KNOWN (as established by the CIA) operative of the CIA.
Can you Republican not see the goddamned difference?
As I said, you right-wingers would be screaming for the Death Penalty if the parties were reversed.
BTW – GHWB said that outing a CIA covert operative was TREASON.
Hypocrits.
WSClark: What the fuck, man?
When the Republicans are faced with overwhelming logic, the resort to character attacks, as have Mr. Price and his buddy KSGolfnut.
And personally, Mr. Price, I could not give a good god damn less what you think about anything.
Take a deep breath and read the following:
“When citizens testify before grand juries, they are required to tell the truth. Without the truth, our criminal justice system cannot serve our nations or its citizens. The requirement to tell the truth applies equally to all citizens, including persons who hold high positions in government.”
So then this should not apply to the President? (Or at least one with an approval rating of 60% or higher?). Or is it only when the question applies to sex?
What exactly are you arguing?
“You’re meaning Richard Armitage, correct? He was deputy secretary of state under Colin Powell at the time.”
Hey Steven,
Armitage, that’s the one! My bad. I still don’t think that Libby will go to trial, many of the witnesses for the defence are fighting the deposition process. It seem the left is running, hiding and generally scared that the truth will come out.
Interesting, it will be interesting.
Hank
“WSClark: What the fuck, man?”
Jummer – another Golf Nut troller
BTW – What ever happened to Uma, Jugge and Abe?
Did KSGolfnut fire those three?
ksgrm,
Maybe you misunderstood the interview you saw with Kovak, or was he lying in this article.I don’t blame you for not wanting to read a left wing web site, you are probably afraid you might learn some truth for a change. I’m a liberal and I never just limit my reading to the left.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/29/novak.cia/
What it all boils down to is this. There was no reason that Bill Clinton should have been called before a grand jury to discuss sex in the first place. Even though it was not smart, and really bad, I don’t remember a law saying it was illegal to get a bj in the oval office.
He lied about his sex, and that’s all.
Conversely we’re talking about a group of people in high power who intentionally outted a CIA agent, whether or not she was on assignment at the time, as retaliation for speaking out against the administration.
The implications of that type of thing being ok, is pretty damn frightening. Or it should be to all Americans regardless of which aisle you stand.
We need qualified people to do our spying, to do our intelligence. Sometimes the best person for that job will be a republican, sometimes a democrat. Those people cannot feel their lives could be put in danger simply because they happen to be of the opposite party.
Make a decision…do you want qualified, competent, and loyal to the US people working for the these matters, or do you want LOYAL to the party at all costs? Those are your choices.
MrK,Don’t forget, Clinton was disbarred for lying to the grand jury.
“this will be the last time”
Thank you, Hank, I don’t have anything to say to you either.
Pee,The law doesn’t say “the whole truth except when it applies to sex”
Let’s swear in Bush and Cheney, Rove, and Rice and see how they do.
When we catch them in a lie, which is inevitable, let’s have them executed.
Fair enough?
KIA – the GOP impeackment of Clinton was strictly partisan and it damaged the country. As much as I would like to see the Democrats employ imilar extreme partisanship I doubt that they will. (Keep in mind that they have only been in for a week) I think they know they have more important things to do – like trying to fix the mess the republicans have made. So, instead, I expect them to try to tie Bush’s hands so as to minimize any further damage he can cause.
Delores I did read the article and there was a lot of double speak gobblely gook. In this article Novak says she was not a covert agent – he said he had misspoken when he said there were two administration officials – it wouldn’t be the first time a reporter said what he thought would get him an answer to his question. I say wait for the trial. The truth will come out.
Just one question PM with all of this worry about Libby why wasn’t anyone concerned when a bar bouncer had the most sensitive files about every top government official in his possession and not under lock and key. Why did he have them? He was working directly for the Clintons and in many instances they were known to use the IRS to go after their enemies. Remember the travel office and the director Dale. His life was effectively ruined by the actions taken by Bill & Hill. Did anyone care? I say there is no smoking gun here and no threat to our country. It is politics as usual.
If a Democrat does it, it is a threat to national security.
If a Republican does it, it is just trivial and everyone should just ignore it for the sake of the country.
Right, Germy?
Clark,
I like your posts, I think you’re a pretty intelligent poster.
While many, probably most, of your points are correct, being correct is not the only thing that matters.
For example, if I correcting my teenage son, and I am kicking his ass in the process, it could be that he might not be inclined to listen to me. Big surprise, there.
Your shrill tone is not helping in getting across the good points you have to make. That’s my only issue with you.
Hope to talk to you later. Thanks.
In this situation the offense was much worse than the charge of lying. Ruining a persons career, blowing not only her cover, but the cover of the company that she allegedly worked for must have compromise the safety of all who had dealings with her in foreign countries. It also removed an experienced wmd analyst, but then I doubt this admin. has much use for them. They already know who has what, and where to find it!
Sorry, Mr. Davis, but those on the left have been laying down and taking it from the right-wing for fourteen years now, if not longer.
As a country, maybe we would not be where we are now if more progressives would stand up and fight back? The Democrats and the left wing folks have allowed themselves to be doormats for a nasty band of right wing thugs and they excuse their behavior in any way possible.
They don’t call Democrats the party of Pink Tutu’s for nothing. The progressives should have learned long ago that the right wing will give them no quarter. They should have learned long ago that no amount of hypocrisy is too great for the Republicans to stomach.
In the USA, the Republicans ARE the enemy, because they have discribed us as traitors, thieves, immoral enemies of the state and much, much worse.
Why should we lay down and take their abuse? Why should we lay down and allow them to abuse us?
It is your choice, Mr. Davis. You can lay down and take it.
Or you can act like a true American and stand up and fight.
As for me, you can call me all the names you want, you can accuse me of anything you can, but I will fight you every inch of the way.
Because that is the American way and I am a born and bred American.
I don’t give a good god damn who is offended.
Just one last point for those on both sides of the aisle….
The Republicans declared war on the rst of us in 1988 with Willie Horton. The Republicans have called the shots in the war ever since then. When the rare Democrat or progressive dares to fight back, the Republicans scream foul, begin the personal attacks (DA, traitor, shrill, coward, etc.) and dare the left wing to defend themselves.
Then the Republicans are shocked and dismayed when they get kicked in the teeth.
Damn, even the Democrats are shocked when a Dem kicks a Republican in the teeth.
I don’t want to make nice with the Republicans. I don’t play nice at recess with the right wing. When you slap me, I kick your ass. When you punch me, I knock you down and stomp on your head. When you pull a knife, I take out a gun.
You get the picture?
This liberal progressive does not play nice.
And you better get used to it because there are a lot more where I come from.
Millions, upon millions.
And we will not lay down because you say so.
Sorry, WS,
Will talk to you later.
If at all…
Sorry, Mr. Davis, we only want fighters on this side of the aisle.
Why play the game if you are not going to win?
Do you want to go down to defeat like progressives have for the last fourteen years or do you want to fight back and win?
Sorry, Mr. Davis, if I am too rough and tough for you, but you can either win, or you can lose.
And you can be damned sure that the other side will drive over your bloody body if they had a chance.
The bad thing is – you know that I am right.
And don’t bother talking to me – I have nothing to say to you if your attitude is to accept losing gracefully.
It’s sad, really.
WS, you’re an ass. How you say it screams so loudly I cannot hear what you say.
When you decide to be civil, we can talk. Until then, you can talk to yourself. We’re done. There are plenty of posters here I can have a civil exchange with, who are not violently intolerant (or, frankly, intimidated) by those who dare to disagree with them, and feel they must respond with obscentities or threats (see post at 11:49).
I’m sure you’ll respond to this with your usual 3rd grade tirade. I don’t care. I’m tired of trying to respond like an adult to a child.
Grow up.
And which part of my 11:49 didn’t you understand, GM?
Which part was not true?
You and I both know that anyone on the right will kick me when I am down, so why pretend to play nice?
Should we play nice like Kerry did in ‘04 when Bush swiftboated him?
Should we play nice like McCain did in South Carolina in 2000 when Bush accused him of having a illigitimate black child?
Should we play nice like Clinton did when he was impeached?
Tell me, GM, in all seriousness, why should any progressive play nice after the last fourteen years of being called un-American, traitors, cowards, etc.?
Why would we even think about playing nice at this point?
And GMC, there is nothing about you that intimidates me in any way shape or form.
WS
Whatever. If you say it loud enough, and long enough, you might even convince yourself.
Grow up. Until you begin to act like an adult, this will be my last post to you. On any thread. There are too many others here with whom I can have civil conversations with without wasting my time with you.
Let fleet yank your chain; it’s easy enough to do.
“last post to you. On any thread”
Thank you GMC, I really don’t have anything to say to you either.
Actually, I am curious why YOU got so upset when I corrected you on the thread earlier today, but it’s not really important.
If the truth be known, none of you right wing folks can take the heat anyway. Fleetwood ran like a little boy and now you won’t talk to me.
All of you right wing types can dish it out but none of you can take it.
Breaks my heart, GMC.
Just in parting GMC, why did it upset you so much that I suggested that Fleetfuck would be comfortable in the Aryan Nation, but it didn’t bother you when he wanted me hung for treason?
Could it be your right wing bias showing?
Ha, ha, ha – go away, GMC, you bore me!
WSheehanClark
You are the portrait of what many call a FeverSwamper, a Barking Moonbat. What a hoot.
You absolutely cannot accept simple logic. Plames own boss did not know that her classification on paper was still COVERT.
As someone pointed out earlier,(and I’ll say this really slow so you can absorb it) SHE HAD A PARKING SPOT AT CIA HEADQUARTERS WITH HER NAME ON IT.
Facts and logic aside, since they mean nothing to you, if a crime was committed by “outing” her, why has no one been charged????
F’Bomb away Cindy.
And Cindy,
Why hasn’t Armitage been charged with leaking her name to the media? After all he was the one who most directly pointed it out to someone in the press.
I’ll give you some time.
Mr. Clark,We’ll have to agree to disagree.
What’s really disgusting about the Plame affair is that when Fitzgerald took up the case he knew from the beginning who the source to the media was, Armitage. He also knew that by the letter of the law that protects Covert agents, Plame was not covered. So he new from the get-go that no crime had been committed. He simply went on a fishing expedition to see who he could catch in a lie or a coverup or whatever.
If Liddy lied he will be convicted, but this whole story has got to be the biggest, most overblown, non-scandal of the past ten years in Washington politics.
Meanwhile people who leaked national intelligence secrets that did actual harm to our ability to defend ourselves walk free, and a bunch of glory-seeking hack journalists who helped do it sit and chuckle about it over their glass of chardonnay.
News flash to Hank – the Libby trial will go on and aren’t they interviewing potential jurors as we speak?
Mr. Kia is so hellbent on his beloved Republicans being so pure white and virginal that he cannot even fathom anyone questioning anything one of his beloved leaders do.
I question everybody and everything I read and hear on the news. Unfortunately, too many people get their news from one source such as Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, CBN, Network news or anywhere else.
But if Libby lied under oath, just like Bill Clinton did, then he should be prosecuted the very same way. If Cheney testifies in Libby’s trial and is found to have lied – then he too should face impeachment just as Bill Clinton did.
What is so hard to understand about this theory? What is good for the Democrats should be good for the Republicans. I would think that the Republicans would welcome the Libby trial to get all the facts out in the open. A transparent Bush Administration would not have as many problems as they have today. But, instead of a transparent administration, Bush and Company have chosen to do many things secretly and behind closed doors. This is what fuels the fire against much of what Bush says and does.
The Bush loyalists call this ‘hatred of Bush’ but I just call it having a healthy dose of skepticism due to the fact that everything has been secretive in this adminstration.
Good post, cs.
And Clark-ster, keep up the good work.
You’re exactly right.
You know who was “nice” to the CONservative ruling junta?
Tom Daschle. And look what they did to him.
Look what they did to Max Cleland the incumbent senator in Georgia who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam when Ann Coulter attacked his war record.
“Coulter claimed that Cleland is no Vietnam war hero, just a victim of a tragic, accidental grenade explosion who plays up his amputations for political gain.
‘If Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. Senator in the first place. Maybe he’d be the best pharmacist in Atlanta,’ Coulter said in her column, published on February 11.”
Look at what they did to the Clinton’s, claiming that Bill and Hillary had Vince Foster MURDERED, that they ran a cocaine ring in Arkansas.
Look at what they did to Chelsea Clinton calling her the “White House dog.”
The only thing these people deserve is contempt. The only thing they understand is power.
The only thing we can do to stop them is win by any means necessary.
Check your e-mail, my friend. The time for talk is over.
A summary of what may be a preview of the Libby trial:
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0112nj1.htm
A question I have: if we have a fit and fall over in it each time a right-wing poster posts something stupid, banal, or just plain false – we are enhancing our message, how exactly?