State Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, has already launched a strong contender for silliest legislation of the year: a bill that would give schools legal cover to spank students. Journey said he recalls the threat of spanking being a deterrent back in his wayward student days.
That might be so, but it’s still a dumb idea to revive, because schools don’t want it. The vast majority of teachers and principals wouldn’t want to touch this with a 10-foot paddle.
Journey says school officials would be required to get the permission of parents to spank. Here’s a better idea: Let parents spank their kids at home if they want to. There are better, safer ways to discipline kids at school.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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62 Comments
Yes, Randy, but supporting corporal punishment makes Phil seem more manly. If you’ve ever heard his voice you’d understand his concerns.
A million people, a million voices. Try again Steve!
Some years ago, before I had the chillin’s, I was all for the spanking in skools. No longer. I don’t want some burnt-out, angry teacher whacking on my kids.I can do that just fine.
I say we use ‘extrordinary rendition’ without habeus corpus.If we’re talkin’ about a deterent, it would be helpful to tape the torture and play it back in civics class.
“Shut up back there or I’m calling Dick Cheney!”
Spank away, but you have to bring the parent(s) in and spank them as well. THAT would put a stop to a LOT of the discipline problems in our schools.
Phil Journey is a loon. Always has been . . . always will be.
Yep I agree with Randy Scholfield on this one. The schools have no business doling out corporal punishment to kids.
I find myself sort of in the middle here. I think that if parents and teacher can have a ‘meeting of the minds’ then the teacher can mete out appropriate discipline. This has been going on already – just sort of ‘informally.’
IMHO, what SHOULD happen is open communication between the parent and teacher. The teacher should be able to call or email the parent and the parent should rain Holy hell on the kids at home.
The only job a kid has is to go to school and do well. Prepare them for their future by showing them that doing poorly at their ‘job’ means blowback at home. Life lessons.
Real quick, I wrote a software package that would put the parents in direct contact with the teachers, their children’s behavior and grades, and upcoming assignments, tests, events, whatever. Do y’all have or do you think y’all’s school system would adopt software like this?
I got in trouble by the principal for emailing my son’s teacher too frequently.
10 times in 2 months.
Remember, this is a child who cannot fully communicate.
My Mom was a teacher. I understand that being a teacher means bringing a lot of work home, but that is a career choice and you have to deal with the good (summers off =) ) and the bad (grading papers at home).
If a teacher does not want to keep communication with a parent, then maybe it is time for him/her to seek another career path.
Oh and most of those emails were replies, not even initial emails.
Honestly I don’t think it was the teacher complaining, this school and I go around and around and I think this was yet another way for the principal to exert her ‘dominance’.
and also so I wouldn’t have evidence of what we did or did not discuss as well.
Schools don’t want it? Fine. Don’t use it. But don’t deny that disciplinary tool, when appropriate. I’d note that Kansas law does not bar spanking in schools now, though few schools do for fear of legal liability; i.e., some parent who sees the spanking of his “angel” as a payday.
Gotta love those government schools. They get money hand over fist yet they cannot control the students nor educate them well. The administrators get big checks but the teachers have to put up with all the crap and get underpaid for it. Now go and join your teachers unions for more of the same. But on the bright side they will transport students to and from.
GMC – my boys are angels, I am certain that …
Question is … when did they ‘fall?’ …
Summer vacation was over and Little Johnny returned back to school.
Only two days later his teacher phoned his mother to tell her that he was misbehaving.
“Wait a minute,” she said. “I had Johnny with me for three months and I never called YOU once when he misbehaved!”
“The administrators get big checks but the teachers have to put up with all the crap and get underpaid for it.”ray–The average pay for a public skool teacher is $1000 per week.Does anyone think that is “underpaid”? I don’t.
Poor Anything-to-get-my-name-in-the-paper Phil!
He just gets no respect!
Fleetworm:
Quote your source on the $1,000 a week, please.
http://www.aft.org/salary/2004/download/releases/SalarySurvey-KS.pdf
Some folks they like sweet talk
And others they like to grind
I just like the back of your hand somewhere on my behind.
Umm my bottom hurts just thinking about it.
I think it depends on the school district on the communication policy. I get weekly updates from the school on how he’s doing in class. I email some teachers on a weekly basis (sometimes daily) in subjects where he’s having trouble.However, the school has absolutely positively no business disciplining my child (or any other child). It is up to the parents to enforce rules and set an example for how serious school needs to be taken.
After last year you’d think Republicans would like to distance themselves from images of schoolboys being spanked.
I can see the Bush Administration advocating “Guantanimo Rooms” for time-outs!
Julie, that would be awesome if the parents would actually do something. Maybe it is the PARENTS that need to be spanked!!! Publicly every Saturday in the town square. Bet that would get the parents involved.
Julie:
I agree that parents should be involved. BUT your statement that:
“However, the school has absolutely positively no business disciplining my child (or any other child). It is up to the parents to enforce rules and set an example for how serious school needs to be taken.”
is absolutely wrong. The school MUST discipline their students, and enforce their rules. The issue here isn’t whether they do that, but whether corporal punishment ought to, in some circumstances, be an option.
Even more troubling is the statement that it is up to a parent to decide “how serious school needs to be taken.” It implies that 1) school isn’t to be taken seriously unless Mommy says so, and worse 2) the parent, and by extension the child, get to arbitrary decide which rules (in reality the law, it is compulsory education, after all) to agree with and “take seriously.”
What is a school to do with a student who’s parent tells their child that school is not to be taken seriously? Surely you don’t mean that?!
I disagree GMC. If the parents don’t make their children understand how important school is, who will? The rules are part of school being important. If they can’t follow the rules in school, they should be disciplined by the school AND the parent, further reinforcing the importance of school.
Julie,
I think that is a skewed view – if your child is spending the night at a friends house and breaks the rules, are the parents of the friend just supposed to let that go? Do you let it go when a child’s friend breaks a rule in your home? It is ABSOLUTELY the place of the schools to discipline children for breaking the rules – and the type of attitude you exhibited is the reason why we have so many children who behave and perform poorly today… Now, granted, I don’t necessarily think spanking is the answer, especially if that is not a punishment you use at home, but regardless, the school needs to be able to exert some discipline – otherwise, why would children listen or behave, regardless of what they are taught at home? If you know you can do whatever you want and you aren’t going to get in trouble for it – why wouldn’t you? And don’t feed me a good old it’s the parents job – YES, it is the parents job, but honestly how many parents out there are A) going to believe the teacher when they say their “little angel” misbehaved in school or B) really care how their children are behaving period??
GMC -I apologize for any misunderstanding. I should have stated it clearer. It is up to parents to physically discipline children (ie it is our personal choice if spanking or grounding should be applied as personal punishment for a child misbehaving in school). I have no problems with schools issuing detention or taking away special privileges (ie field trips) as a consequence for misbehavior.I should have probably left off the part about parents setting the example for how serious school is to be taken. I should have realized that not all people emphasize the point of a good education like I do to my kids. There is no way that we can force parents to set a good example (heaven knows I’d like to but…)
And Sol, I think you actually AGREED with GMC – if you re-read his post, you will see he is more playing the devil’s advocate in regards to parents who don’t believe school is important and instill that in their children, he is stating that it is just as much the schools responsibility to stress that importance, not just the parents – i don’t think he ever said it wasn’t the parents job or that the schools shouldn’t be able to discipline… I could be wrong, but that was my interpretation…
Sol:
I think we DO agree; perhaps I didn’t say what I thought I said clearly.
Don’t assume that all parents DO attempt to make their children understand the importance of an education. I would not assume that; in fact, after 12 years in a classroom, I know that it is often NOT the case. In fact a depressingly common occurance was that, rather than parents who supported and reinforced discipline by the school, they routinely undercut that discipline by Mommy running down to the school to complain that her “angel” was in trouble and doing all they could to bail their angel out.
It’s a mistake, parents, sometimes even when you think the school’s been unfair. Get into the habit of bailing your kids out of trouble in school, and you vastly increase the likelihood you’ll be bailing them out of jail.
After seeing the last few posts, it’s clear, Wendy, Julie, Sol, we are on the same page. Sometimes English (or perhaps just my writing) is such a poor communicator!!!!
Agreed and agreed GMC. Goes back to my post up-thread of the PARENTS getting the spanking.
My Mom was a teacher for 20+ years and I definitely hear you. When I was coming up, when I got in trouble at school and my parents found out about it, I was guilty until proven innocent. Even though there are ‘dirty’ teachers and administrators out there, you have to side with the system first to enforce upon your children that rules are rules and there are consequences for their actions.
I don’t think the legislation is a good idea. First time it happens, someone will be at the school with a lawyer.
Besides, some teacher will find an excuse for any reason to give a paddling. I know that from personal experience. :D
Sol,sounds like your mom had a program like I have w/ my son.He knows I’ll go to bat for him and staunchly defend him if he’s in the right but he also knows if he screwed up he’s got it coming at home.
Didn’t y’all ever get ‘licks’ at school? I took my share and then some. It was always the assistant principal with a witness in the room. I tell you what, it sure was a deterrent. Even though I got in more trouble than I should have (and paid for it) I would have gotten into a lot more if the only punishment was an hour after school.
Schools are out of control and have been for quite sometime. Fact of the matter is that quite a few parents leave it up to the school system to do everything for their children. Food, discipline, learning, heat, etc… Schools do need an effective means of discipline available to them. While I do disagree with legislation to make spanking the preferred form of punishment, I do feel that schools should have some leeway in how they discipline their students without fear of being sued by little Susie’s mom because her feelings got hurt.
Julie,I was brought up with it and am passing it to my son as well. Both his cutting up in class and getting grades below a ‘B’ get him in plenty hot water. ‘B’ may sound stringent to some of you, but the kid is bright and takes him little effort (lucky him). If I don’t stay on him, he becomes lax.
Sol,I understand completely
FleetI looked at the link you provided to support you claim that the average teacher made $1,000 a week. I guess you were being a little generous with your interpretation of the facts.
Was you assertion based on the school year only, or the actual salary? Kansas teachers ranked 39th in the nation on average salary at $38,622 for the 2002-03 school year.
Of course that is based on the link you provided.
Twist the facts, ignore the problem.
I’m not sure that spanking at home is wise. Some people would point to Solomon’s corporal punishment advisement in Proverbs, but Solomon had hundreds of concubines and children, so he didn’t have time to work problems out in the same manner as if he had only one wife and a half-dozen children.
Furthermore, the Bible gives no authority whatsoever to any adults to corporally punish other people’s children.
My children are grown so I don’t know what the schools are like today. But my kids knew that if they misbehaved in school there would be a punishment when they got home. I told their teachers to not spank them, but to call me and and I would come to school and spank them myself. That was more of an embarrassment to have their mom spank them at school.
But in today’s society, we have parents who don’t care about being socially acceptable. We have illegals sending their kids to school that don’t even speak English. How is a teacher ever going to teach if they are responsible for all the social manners of all his/her kids in the classroom?
One of my friends is a high school teacher and she had a room full of unruly kids. There were 2 kids out of 30 that wanted to learn. The rest threw papers, books, pens, pencils, desks, etc. all during class. My friend was chomping down antacids to deal with his heartburn and was counting the days until his retirement.
I asked the principal of that school why these kids parents were not called in and he said “the parents vote and we need a bond passed next year”. He did not want to rock the boat.
So, obviously something is wrong in this picture. And just because Phil Journey wants a spanking law in schools will not fix the problem. It goes deeper than that.
To be truthful with you, I’m glad my kids are grown and out of school.
cs, your story illustrates the losers when a teacher cannot, or is not permitted to, keep discipline in the classroom; the students who want to learn. I am not in favor of corporal punishment in the schools; however, the teacher needs to be given the support of the principal, which, if there is a bond issue looming, sometimes is lacking, in enforcing discipline by other measures. Examples of other methods: in school suspension (the students must come to school, but are on suspended status, so there are the same ramifications as if they weren’t there); detentions; change in teachers/classrooms, if the school is large enough to allow for this. None of these things will work, however, if the bad behavior is condoned by the parents.
I’ve noticed over the years that the number of “alibi” parents continues to grow, as well as the “denial” parents. While the majority of parents seem supportive, the number of parents in the two classifications above is growing, and will likely reach majority status soon (I suspect, but cannot prove, this is true in various buildings in USD 259, and in some non-public schools, too).
I’m not sure that spanking at home is wise. Some people would point to Solomon’s corporal punishment advisement in Proverbs, but Solomon had hundreds of concubines and children, so he didn’t have time to work problems out in the same manner as if he had only one wife and a half-dozen children.
Furthermore, the Bible gives no authority whatsoever to any adults to corporally punish other people’s children.
VT, I have a blogger ‘friend’ who basically says her kids could do no wrong in the eyes of the public, that it was her duty to defend them no matter what they did. She says that’s what family is about. Even if she knew the kids were guilty- she’d talk to them at home about it.
I said I felt her parenting model was awful, and showed the kids that they could do anything and mommy would come to their rescue.
How many people here feel that way, of feel like I do that if a kid acts up, they should be defended when they are right, but pay the consequences of their actions if they are wrong.
I can tell you now what occurs in Wichita Public Schools for discipline. As a substitute teacher we were briefed.
You cannot touch the child in any way.
If there is a discipline problem instruct the child to behave.
If the child does not behave, fill out form xxxx (forgot the form number.)
If it is an emergency call security and they will attend to the child.
So, basically the teacher is helpless to do anything except advise if they child wants to test the situation and become unruly.
So, there you are, impotent and nothing you can do to the child except talk, write or wait.
JM, the thing about it is that there would be too many teachers who would use corporal punishment against kids with special needs, kids with adhd, instead of using better alternatives. To me, spanking is lazy. It should only be used as a last resort.
I grew up also in the spanking era, it was just phasing out as I was in school. I got a swat in the 2nd grade because some other girl was cheating off of my paper. And I didn’t even know it- and they didn’t listen to me at all. I felt that was very unfair.
I also remember in the 6th grade when two boys got a swat from a teacher. They laughed about it. Those two were always in trouble, they struggled in school. Maybe they would have taken their education more seriously had there been someone to tell them they weren’t stupid- and provided them with extra help instead.
PMom,
Don’t get me wrong I don’t believe in corporal punishment in school either. I was just giving my point of view of how frustrating it is to be mocked by unruly students because they know they can get away with their behavior until the ‘big boys’ are called in.
I took 15 ‘licks’ for speaking out of turn in class once with a 3 foot long paddle with holes in it. I had to report to the P.E. class where the teacher’s other job was. He made me 30 minutes late for football practice and I got 10 more licks from the coach.
I was an angry young man that day and was ready to pop someone myself . Was big enough to do it too. heh
About four years or so ago, I began examining our public high school system to determine why students of today appear out of control in so many ways. At first I thought dental X-rays might be the problem … they might be so powerful, they are doing damage. My dentist assured me this couldn’t be. I thought perhaps students daily regimen of soft drinks and salty chips might be the culprit (and indeed probably does contribute).
But after consulting many people including many teachers, everyone seems to agree that the number ONE PROBLEM is unskilled parents and poor parenting skills.
So, in my mind, the number one need is to establish a “PARENTS’ ACADEMY” in Wichita to coordinate and offer advice and training in this most important area.
Perhaps Phil Journey could be a teacher there. JWink
Jwink, there are many places in the community that offer parenting classes, but parents who don’t care, aren’t going to take them to heart anyway, even if they’re mandated.
There are too many parents who think ‘my parents did it x way and I turned out ok”.
I think spanking is fine in some cases. But we also know that abuse (not the same as spanking), causes more harm to kids than good. What works the best is setting limits, knowing the kids will be held accountable for their actions. Natural consequences are good for some instances- but I also know parents who use that WAY too often as an excuse to do nothing at all- like when my neighbor’s kid was throwing dirt clods at the younger kids, I went and stopped it, and his mother said ‘well when the other kids don’t want to play with him, that’ll teach him’. I just shook my head.GRR.
$38,622/37 weeks of work = $1044/week
Maybe the kids today are so unruly and rude because society as turned into a materialistic society that values attaining money and things more than the family and their kids?
We are a very disposable society and sometimes I think that attitude translates down to the children. If you’re tired of it or it’s broke, just throw it away and get a new one. When I was growing up, we had to fix our broken toys. When the television (we only had one in the entire house) was broke, we didn’t go out and buy a new one. We waited for the repairman to come and fix it.
Maybe life has become too instant gratification? Maybe our kids today could not survive in a world that had only 3 network television channels and the public education channel? They could not survive in a world with just a transister radio. Maybe the kids and their parents have an excess of material things and that’s why the family structure has broken down?
I could just the lawsuits building up. Teacher spanking a teen girl (with the outfits they wear today in school) They can make the law, but no school in their right mind is going to allow it. They’d be boggled down in court. Kid’s can sue too, you know….Pete
worker-What in the world are you talking about?I am exactly correct. I said the average teacher salary in Kansas is $1000 per week and it is. “…average salary at $38,622 for the 2002-03 school year.”It is even more than that now.Who is the one twisting facts?It is called Y O U. Dope.Underpaid? I don’t think so.
http://www.aft.org/salary/2004/download/releases/SalarySurvey-KS.pdf
Here’s the link again.
I win.No more silliness about teachers being poorly paid.
Fleetfart;Whats the matter- got a hangover today?
Not today. That will be Saturday.You can say “I’m sorry sweet Fleettwood” any time now.
What I don’t understand is that spanking is considered abuse now, and your not actually legally allowed, as a parent, to spank your kids. So why should school teachers be allowed to? And why if we tell kids that violence and physical confrontation is not the way to solve things, are we thinking of allowing schools a bi-pass to this rule.
Mike of Vermont
As I 38 year veteran educator who has been a teacher and principal, I couldn’t agree with you more, Randy.
Sen. Journey offers silly legislation but he is not silly. He is an ominous threat that is part of the problem of child abuse in this country. I am so tired of the rhetoric of how we value our children yet big men like Journey consistently want to beat them with boards to teach them….teach them what? We don’t do this to soldiers. We don’t do this to criminals. We don’t do this to animals. But big brave men like Journey thinks we should whack 7 year olds with paddles bruising both their bottoms and their trust in us as adults.
As a teacher and a principal, I believe one of the key elements in good teaching is the ability to manage classroom behavior in a way that foster a love of learning and promotes positive behavior. Good, creative teachers and principals know how to do this. It is the dull and the lazy who want to whack children.