“Hardly anyone will admit it, but education’s role in causing or solving any problem cannot be evaluated without considering the underlying intellectual ability of the people being educated,” Charles Murray of the American Enterprise Institute wrote in the first of a three-part series in the Wall Street Journal. Murray argues that, despite the high expectations of the No Child Left Behind Act, “our ability to improve the academic accomplishment of students in the lower half of the distribution of intelligence is severely limited.” He said that schools could see dramatic improvements in students who have high IQs but have been underperforming academically. But likely not much improvement for students who have below-average or low IQs. The problem may not be that such students have not been taught enough, Murray says, but that they are not smart enough.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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–noun 1. the act or fact of devolving; passage onward from stage to stage.2. the passing on to a successor of an unexercised right.3. Law. the passing of property from one to another, as by hereditary succession.4. Biology. degeneration.
We have biological devolution going on.Since less intelligent people statistically have more children,we are dumbing down americans through biological attrition.
It’s not the politically correct thing to say, but it’s true. There are many people who are not able to learn as much because they don’t have the IQ to understand algebra, chemistry, etc. I know because I’m one of them.
No Child Left Behind cannot work. It’s statisticaly impossible.Some Children Left Behind would work, but only a suicidal politician would back that.
You nailed it Tracy,Go check out a low rent trailer park a time or two. Go visit a welfare office once or twice. The folks that can’t support themselves are cranking out more kids. Shallow end of the gene pool is 10x the deep end.
So what can we do? You have to take an IQ test and submit financial records to be able to procreate? Sounds harsh but…
Take a look at the rest of the world. Our kids will be the factory workers for the Chinese engineers.
So I was one of the kids who earned c’s and d’s in public school. When I went to college I earned mostly A’s.
What was the difference? Motivation, silly.
My high school teachers would get so irate with me when I wouldn’t hand in my homework, but ace the tests. Tests were about the only reason I didn’t fail.
Chemistry wasn’t easy for me, but in college, I tried very very hard, and ended up 5 pts from an A. I also had help available to me when I needed it. That isn’t happening in high school.
I think the worst thing you can do is throw your hands up and say ‘these kids can’t do it’. It’s not that they can’t, it’s that they don’t inspire the kids to try.
So how do we motivate the kids? The parents surely aren’t doing it. What can be done to make failing expensive for kids and getting A’s and B’s lucrative?
Having multiple family members who work in the education field, I can attest to one thing. Their is a spark that must be ignited in a childs mind early in order for them to continue on learning. THAT’S JUST NOT HAPPENING ANYMORE in far too many cases. It does not take a high IQ to learn. I’m a perfect example. 140, a B- student, and college drop out, versus a sister who is much lower, but yet has dual masters degrees.
The truely brain dead are multiplying like cockroaches. They do not sit down and read to their child, do homework with them etc…
Poor isn’t bad. A bar of soap and decent food is pretty cheap in the US. One can live good, and raise their child to have more opportunities. Alot don’t.
Being poor is supposed to HURT LIKE HELL! But nowdays, it doesn’t! Their is no, and i mean NO difference between a married guy with 2 kids making $40k / year, whose wife stays at home, and a guy making $8/hr. Section 8 rent assistance puts them right next door to each other. Free medical care puts them right next to you in the doctors waiting room. They are right ahead of you at the grocery story buying better food than you can afford with their link card. Their kids can go to college with yours, and they didn’t have to pilfer away and scrape by to pay for it.
With all these opportunities, their just isn’t any excuse for poverty to be passed down from generation to generation. As hard as it might be to believe, we are ahead of where we were 10 years ago. Many of these people have been shoved into jobs by the welfare term limits. Others have contributed to the bankrupting of the social security system (that’s a whole new thread).
Gosh, I said sumpin’ that touched an exposed nerve with ya’ll.Dent I?(I spell this way on purpose folks)
Ya’ know freak,you touched on something I realized long ago.I am not a wealthy man.I know wealthy men who live here.In the end, we will both be in similar nursing homes (if not the same one), we will both die in the same hospital.Same goes for indigent people.I have far more than them, and I will be no different than them in the end.
I believe that stewpud people deserve to have kids, be shown compassion, and be lent a hand when needed, but………..some just abuse our good nature.
P_Mom, it sounds to me that you were a classic “underachiever” in high school. Regretably, not all who are receiving low grades in school are underachievers; they’re doing the best that they can, given the resources they have. Is this bad? No; it is just that no matter how hard they try, no matter how much time and effort are expended in providing assistance, they’re just not going to be able to do better.
Yes, there is a spark needed to ignite the mind; but if there isn’t much there to be ignited ab initio, the flame will not burn as brightly, and will go out sooner.
I am well aware that much of what I say in this post, and what I might say in later ones, isn’t politically correct. So be it.
For those of you philosophically inclined; was Plato right?
This topic is interesting because I worked for a brilliant brain surgeon. This man’s intellect was extremely high but he could not keep his shoes tied. He wore loafers because then because he did not have to worry about the shoelaces. We had an office lunch and the theme was Mexican. We had hard taco shells and soft burritos to make your own. The doctor asked what the soft burrito ‘thing’ was and when told to fill it with his desired fillings and then wrap it – he simply put the soft burrito down and picked up the hard shell taco and said ‘this is simpler’.
Now my point here is that even if there is high intelligence, sometimes the practical things in life are beyond that person’s comprehension or their desire to deal with it. In life there are all levels of intelligence required for different jobs.
If the NCLB is not helping kids, which personally I don’t think it is, then it is time we come up with something useful and productive.
I do feel the current welfare system does not encourage to better yourself. People who are not motivated will not get off their lazy butts if it means they will lose a portion of that welfare check. It’s also a matter of self pride and that cannot be taught when the person reaches adulthood. That has to start when the person is young and instilled by a loving family. In this country, the family is in dire need of encouragement. And I don’t care what type of family it is – traditional or non-traditional. A family needs to be supported and encouraged.
lucee, I worked with a lawyer in the air force who matches your description of the brain surgeon. In defense of such folks, simple tasks such as tying the laces in their shoes is not beyond their comprehension; it just isn’t important to them to spend the time doing it.
Oops, in rereading your post, saw that you said it similarly, my earlier comments were not intended to be negative to you.
I find I agree with you on your points concerning NCLB and family influence in toto.
As imperfect as NCLB is, it does seek to impose some accountability on public education, a worthy goal; its methodology leaves much to be desired. The use of standardized assessments is an “easy out” to a most difficult problem.
NCLB does nothing for our education system. If anything, it worsens it, because teachers are too focused on teaching the test so that students will pass instead of teaching EVERYTHING about that subject. Sure, let’s get the kids to memorize the answers. Then they will pass the test and all will be good – at least until they hit college, where they fail miserably because they don’t know anything other than the answers to the test. It the same as the war on drugs – we have poured billions into a program, that rather than decreasing drug use, has seen an INCREASE! Hello – is that not a sign it isn’t working? In ten years, when the majority of these NCLB students have hit college (and failed out) will we be scratching our heads wondering “why?” as we continue to repeat the same mistakes? This is a prime example of why my son will not attend public school – and I don’t believe in home schooling either, but I don’t think my son will get an education with our current public school system, at least not one that will allow him to get anywhere in life. So, even though it’s going to seriously stretch my already stretched thin pocketbook, I am going to pay the extra money to see that my child gets a real education, and not what the public school system currently offers. And it isn’t the teachers faults either, lest you think I am blaming them, I know that they do what they can, but when they have to have a level of students passing these tests due to a federal mandate, what else can they do but teach the test to make sure they pass? This system helps noone and harms everyone. I know that something needs to be done, but NCLB is NOT the answer…
Wendy, I fully understand your position, and applaud your determination. Now, for a bit of a prickly question; if, for whatever reason, the private school(s) you choose don’t admit your student, due to entrance examination performance or other factors, what is your fallback plan?
Actually, Vaughn, aside from cost, i don’t have to have a fallback plan. See, I am *gasp* Catholic, I tithe, my son will attend school at the church we attend… But if I did have to have one, There are several private school avenues to explore before having to make a final decision, which would probably HAVE to be public school, since as a single parent, I must work and therefore can’t home school…
I am just wondering how the NCLB is helping to get a true picture of the educational system if teachers have a room full of illegal immigrants’ children that do not know English? How can any standardize testing be fair in that situation? Is there any part of the NCLB that deals with teaching children who are not English proficient? And what about those children who are just poor test takers? I raised two kids. Both are equally intelligent but the son was the type that could ace a test without much effort. But the daughter had to work for her B’s and C’s on the test. She just froze up when it came to test taking and that reflected in her grades. I knew that my daughter knew exactly the same material that the son knew but somehow she managed to get lower grades because of her test taking skills.
Any thoughts from anybody?
Someone from the AEI is blaming the victims?
Say it isnt so….
Sounds like The Bell Curve has been updated.
The only groups on the blog that get more bashing than phill are gays and hispanic immigrants. Both legal and illegal, since most hillbillies cant tell by looking.
……… I thought you were talking about illegal gays, Farm Grrl.
Enlighten us KFG, as I am a hillbilly, how do you distinguish the two on sight?
And I beg to differ, scan the posts and I think that Bush gets at least half of the bashing. Deservedly or not.
cs, I’ve no words of wisdom as I was like your son, as were our two daughters. Test anxiety is a foreign concept in my world; heck, if it hadn’t been for tests, my grades throughout my educational experience would have been lower than what they were.
On NCLB, as to non-native English language students; I believe there is a two (maybe three) year exemption for them. There is not an exemption for test anxiety folks; I am aware that many schools spend time pre-assessment stressing test-taking skills, and doing the best that they can to help overcome such anxiety.
Our older daughter had a very bright and capable classmate and friend who was absolutely helpless when it came to standardized tests; the drill that was developed with her was that our daughter, together with three other “friends” would meet with her at the site about one hour before the testing began, and they would divert her attention, do anything else that seemed helpful, to relax her and relieve her anxiety. It partially worked, at least for the first hour or so; then, at the break, an abbreviated version of the routine would happen, which would assist her for the first half-hour of the next testing session. Perhaps this will be of some benefit to those with students who aren’t good “test takers”, if there are the friends/classmates who are willing to help.
I need a new hobby… I’m spending too much time here.
My family moved several times during my childhood, and I was educated in a very large city, and a small rurul area, too. I think I got a good education out of almost every locale. And all but pre-school were public schools.
How? Parental involvement. Both of my parents held 4 year degrees, and were the first in their families to graduate college. They very much suppored my education in tradational ways (reviewing homework, proofreading papers, rides to libraries), but more importantly there was a feeling that knowledge and learning were valued in our home.
I think that, more than any other single thing, is why I got a good education in public schools large and small, urban, suburban, and rural.
Accountability in education seems like a great concept, but developing a “real world” metric is a slippery slope. What we have now is “every child taught statistically.” Until there are reliable and repeatable tests to measure *learning* we will be stuck with the kind of testing (and resultant teaching) we now have.
Just my 2¢ worth.
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
ARRRGGG! I need to proof read! I *really* do know how to spell ‘rural’ and ’supportive.’ I guess I should have emailed this to Mom for proofing first. :)
LTB
LTB, spot on with your entire posting.
Parental involvement is truly one of the factors most important in the equation. However, I wonder if it wasn’t somewhat easier for our parents to be so involved (heck, in my case I know it was) a generation or two ago.
The development of the real world metric is truly necessary for there to be accountability in education; right now, because of the difficulty, the politicos have decided that standardized testing is the way to go, since same exist or are less expensive to develop.
As an example; you who have been reading my posts for a while will recall I’ve a daughter in college in Maine, and I “peek in” once in a while to see what’s going on there. In Maine, the powers that be determined that for NCLB purposes at the high school level, they would use the SAT (with a few modifications) for their state assessments, saving taxpayer money which would otherwise be expended on development of a “state assessment”. Well, the SAT is many things; a measure of general educational progress is not one of them. However, as Maine has apparently determined that all students graduating from high school in that state are college bound, a standardized assessment developed for college admissions is just the ticket. I leave it to others to enumerate the fallacies in this reasoning.
Frankly, if a “nationally normed standardized assessment” is to be used as a ’state assessment’, I would propose the ACT therefor, following Colorado’s lead; it is designed to measure, as I understand it, what has been achieved, not potential for achievement as the SAT (again, from my understanding).
“…propose the ACT therefor at the high school level…”
Geez, Operator Error happens again. :(
LTB, I completely agree with you. The home environment is 80% of the battle. I also came from a home highly supportive of education. My mother has an associates degree and my father received his bachelors degree one year before I received my associates and is currently getting his MBA. That’s why there are so many movies about teachers who turn their classes around (example: the new movie Freedom Writers). These teachers fulfilled a role that the parents couldn’t/wouldn’t and made these students realize how valuable an education can really be. Because of that parental support I am continuing on to get my bachelors degree even though I have managed to get a very good job with an associates.
I am also one of those bad test takers. That is one of the reasons that I ended up getting an associates instead of a bachelors in the first place. I couldn’t make it through Calculus because every professor I had based the grades on test and no assignments. So, even though I knew the material, I would panic when the test was put in front of me and ruin my grade. Failing that class eventually pushed me to a different school and a different degree. Now, I am determined to try again, and hopefully I won’t panic this time around…
For those with test anxiety, may I recommend that you not consider going to Law School, where, at least in my day, the entire grade one received in a class was dependent upon one factor alone: the three hour essay final exam. I kind of liked it, but I had many classmates who struggled that first year…
AFN, that’s what saved me in Calc; the grade was based on the tests, not the homework assignments. Actually, in a cumulative knowledge area such as math, I would argue that the only way to assign grades would be by the test scores, with the grade on the final exam making up the lion’s share of the grade.
I understand why classes (especially math) are done that way, but it really sucks for people like me. But I don’t want to sound like I’m complaining. That is just one more factor to NCLB – students don’t all learn the same way, so they can’t be tested the same way. I have no clue what would work better though…
I think classroom intelligence as measured by IQ tests and those tests that measure achievement and the tests that measure placement (ACT, SAT, National Merit) are all fine and well, but they don’t measure the ability to apply that intelligence to tasks.
I have on occasion observed Carpenters who had only completed high school and some who hadn’t. It is remarkable to observe them construct in their mind the dimensions of a cabinet system or a house and then apply that to the project they are working on.
Knowing several of them personally; they did not do well in a class room environment because of the abstract concepts that tend to be taught in the classroom.
I notice the apprenticeships of technical trades tend to be more hands on, but also more instructional than those of academia. The apprentist can actually see immediate results good or bad when making a project.
In the administrative world of the classroom environment results may not be seen for many years (after the get their degress and certified in their profession.)
This leads to a disconnect of intellect and accomplishment of some who may not see the point of studying diagramming a sentence or knowing how many moles of a solution it will take formulating a compound that will inhibit toe fungus (something a pharmacist or physician might learn years down the road of the education path.)
Or perhaps the Fire Chief through his training and experience knows exactly how to extinguish a fire, while a scientist figuring out the same thing may have to struggle through years of theoretical situations without even applying what he/she has learned.
Anyway, I digress and take the Scientific American to the room of porcelain for further enlightenment. :)
Here’s a question for you guys. How many of you were taught to learn? Teachers threw information at me in all manners, but no one taught me how to learn.
School was important in my household, so I learned to learn on my own. But I don’t think the same is true today in far too many households. How about we try to teach these kids how to learn first?
Agreed, JM, on most of your comments/examples.
Carpentry uses a great deal of geometry, e.g., but why must all high school geometry courses be taught as though all students therein are going to be math majors? I am told that proper programming of a CNC machine incorporates Trigonometry, but again, why must all Trig classes (if there is indeed still a separate class on that subject) be taught as though all students will be taking Calculus?
Just my two cents on these topics.
I don’t really know about “learning” but I do know that studying should be taught. When I was in elementary and high school, I never needed to study. As long as I attended class and did my homework, there was never a problem. When I went on to college for engineering and things didn’t come quite so easily, I was lost (see Calculus above). So, if I had learned how to study it might have gone a little better.
VT“but why must all high school geometry courses be taught as though all students therein are going to be math majors?”
“why must all Trig classes (if there is indeed still a separate class on that subject) be taught as though all students will be taking Calculus?”
Math is cumulative. Each class builds to the next?
It really wasn’t that I was an underachiever, I just didn’t see the point in doing over and over things I already ‘got’.
I had better things to do with my time lol.
When I was in college, I knew that I had to pull good grades to get where I wanted. And that meant, yes, doing my homework. But it also meant learning things that I wanted to learn about.
And I wasn’t one who struggled…so imagine what it must be like to struggle all the time, then horray- your reward is HARDER work next year!
We just need to figure out what individual incentives work for each child.
I don’t think a one size fits all solution is the answer.
By the way lucee, your brain surgeon sounds like he might have had Asperger’s syndrome.
I used to believe that every person had the potential to be educated.
But after interacting with some of the CONservatives here, I realize that’s too idealistic.
Some people are just stuck on stupid.
Yeah Cap’n I agree. But we Conservatives haven’t given up hope on you guys. Y’all may one day be able to learn too =)
Asperger’s syndrome…
I had to look that up Political Mom and was relieved it had nothing to do with fondness for Asparagus. :)
I care very much about my son’s education. but, to some point, parental involvement can only take you so far. I was the first one in my family to get a college degree, but my parents were very involved in my studies. As I will be in my sons. but when the educational system as a whole is simply not equipped to TEACH our students, it doesn’t matter how involved you are, they aren’t going to learn. Another part of the reason why I will pursue private schools, because they encourage parental envolvement
<< Involvement – sorry for that, hit the enter key a little too quickly!
Sol, all math is cumulative; agreed; but couldn’t there be math courses which present the necessary information to provide the building blocks for the next course(s) without the theory? That was my intent in what you quoted.
I’m having some difficulty thinking, as there was a water leak in the building last night, our office was flooded, and there are blowers going, etc. Too noisy; would go home, but have a client I haven’t been able to contact with an appointment later this afternoon, so am still here in case he shows.
So Vaughn Tolle,
I guess there is no doubt in your mind of who to call to rectify the problem. That is the building supervisor/plumbing contractor or your former High School Math teacher? :)
BTW, just completed reading parts 2 and 3 of the series by Charles Murray. He makes, IMHO, some good observations about pursuing a college education, and appropriate education for the intellectually gifted. I may tackle some of these later, assuming I’m still competent to do so.
No, JM, none at all; the calls have been made, and all will be well. My HS math teacher(s) would be singularly unequipped to handle this, IIRC.
I dunno about you, Pee…but if I brought home C’s and D’s, I’d be scrubbin the crap off the underside of mom’s car for a month…at 6 am…on a Saturday. Clearly your parents allowed you to get low grades. Mine didn’t.
Think that might have had an impact on how our lives turned out?
Both of my parents worked two jobs each. Remember, I grew up during those fabulous Reaganomics years. They were too busy working to make sure I was doing my homework.
KSGolfnut,
It’s a relief to know that I wasn’t the only child to get extra chores for grades not up to standards. heh
JM, Golf, with me, that makes three!
Yeah Tracy the philosophy behind the extra chores as I was told in long and boring detail by my father if you have enough free time NOT to study, then there needs to be some more productive use of that time as in chores. :(
IMHO, if you are going to get a credit for Geometry, you should take the same Geometry class that everyone takes.
I grew up with grade standards (and citizenship as I liked to fart around with the other kids) and am passing them on to my son.
My son was reading before he went to kindergarten. I’m no super dad or anything, I was just blessed with a VERY intelligent kid!!! In Kindergarten, he was reading with advanced 2nd graders and scoring better on comprehension than most of the class.
I had a spat with the ex and my time with my son became very restricted. He is a C student now in 6th grade. I am imposing the A-B rule on him.
I only have every odd weekend with him, but if he brings home less than a C, his weekend isn’t very fun. Not fair to me, as I would rather be having fun with him, but I have to pick up the slack of his lack-luster mother.
Sol, I agree that if one is to receive credit for Geometry, he/she should take Geometry. If, however, there is a class denominated “Applied Geometry”, as an example, a credit therein would not be a credit for Geometry; it would be for “Applied Geometry”, and would not count as fulfilling any Geometry prerequisite for an advanced math course.
“They were too busy working to make sure I was doing my homework.”*cough*bullshit*coughMy parents both worked a lot, too – especially during tax season. It’s a matter of priority.I work 50-60-70-80 hrs depending on the week – but I don’t let that EVER get in the way of being a quality parent.
VT, sounds like a winner. Is this collegiate or high school? Would a high school be able to support both?
Notice how it was Reagan’s fault?
VICTIM!VICTIM!VICTIM!
Interesting on how intelligence is used or not used.
I went to a school with a very bright kid. While in the second grade, he scored reading comprehension at the college level and beyond. (no idea how that is calculated.)
I met up with later and he was a blackjack dealer. I asked him how he made his career choice and he told me, “Oh I could have been anything I wanted, but this is more profitable and more attuned to my lifestyle.”
He also went to state that he had never been sued for medical malpractice and didn’t have to beg for a small business loan.
I guess, application of intelligence is proportional to the desires of the individual over the expectations of society. :)
Sol,My thoughts are with you. That’s a rough road. It’s too bad you and your ex can’t get together – put aside bad feelings – and unify in your approach to what is and isn’t acceptable for your son.
Sol, my thoughts are for high school, not college. Perhaps also for vocational school, whether as a part of high school or post-secondary. Most large, comprehensive high schools could support such a program, IMHO; in fact, I suspect, but do not have evidence thereof, that something like this occurs informally in many high schools here in Kansas, what with only two high school math credits generally required for graduation in most districts.
JM,I agree. Intelligence is just half of the formula. The other half is desire. And where is desire formulated? -At home.
Sol, I join with Golf in his expression. Good luck with this; from observation of divorced clients and their issues, it’s going to be a long, rough road for you and him.
Yeah we can tell you work all those hours.
For you, work equals sitting behind a desk and chatting on the message board.
For the rest of us, work is actually WORK- you know the kind where your body hurts afterwards.
Man, this is a conservative thread.
I’m afraid to jump in here with you guys,you’re all waiting here in ambush!
Me too Sollie.It’s always a heartache when you’ve got kids together.
Been there, done that.All my Ex’s live in Texas.For real.
Pee,Do you take the same approach with your kids that your parents took with you regarding grades?
Mom, I resemble those remarks!Bad mom.Bad!
VICTIM!
“For you, work equals sitting behind a desk and chatting on the message board.”
I’m busted.
Mom, you’re a real Balls-buster,aincha?
If your body hurts after a day of work – you might want to think about getting in better shape.
No I don’t.
My parents believed the school was always right about everything. They had a very hands off approach.
I’m very hands-on. But she has a harder time learning than I did, so my requirements are c’s and above.
My body always hurt after work, even when I was thin and healthy. It depends on the work you do.
I hurt all the time now no matter what I do.
I used to build metal buildings. I’d work on a concrete crew to dig footings, set forms, pour and finish slabs, wreck and clean forms. Then I’d join the steel crew to hang the pillars, the rafters, the purlins, eaves. I built roofs, walls, doors, trim. It was good hard work. At the end of the day, I’d play softball for 2-3 hours or sneak in a round of golf.
I did this for 3 years. I’m pretty sure I’ve done a day of “real work” or two.
VT,OK, I’m with you on the same page now. When I went thru high school my Mom was still teaching math. As a result, I did well in math =) Honors Geometry freshman year and honors Algebra II my sophomore year. After that, socializing became more important and I slacked off.
But the principal remains. The elevated (or honors) course and the vanilla (or applied) course. Yeah, that makes sense.
Hush Tracy :P. My comment was meant for testicles.
Curiously, Pee…What do you tell your kid to do if she thinks that the teacher is asking something unreasonable of her?
I got the “balls-buster” joke. I don’t think Pee did.
Golf <– wearing the cast-iron jockeys today
I discuss it with the teacher. There is more to this than what I’m willing to explain here, but often my daughter reads into things she shouldn’t.
I have to talk regularly to my daughter’s teachers. So far, I don’t think there have been too many times when I’ve asked them to change their expectation, but rather their approach.
I know mom.Just keepin it real,whatever that means.
I’m soooory.
My kids have the following edict from me: if the teacher tells you to jump – you jump. if he/she tells you to roll in the mud, you say no and tell me about it when you get home.
So far, with 18 school years behind us, not once has a kid of mine told me that he or she has been asked to roll in the mud.
Anybody up for some divorce sparing?
1) What makes a female the parent of choice?
2) Why do I have to pay taxes on child support I give to her?
3) Shouldn’t child support be based on income levels at the divorce? I wouldn’t have made the career choices I did if I were still married to the ‘Thing”
4) What the hell is up with every odd weekend? Why not more time?
5) Shouldn’t the custodial parent have to show that all the money + an equal share of his/her money is being spent on the child(ren) or otherwise put in a trust account for the child(ren)?
Sol,I’m sure it’s NEVER fair. But, it is what it is. I suppose you can always go back to court, but that’s more attorney $ – and you have to make the cost/benefit risk analysis.
I feel your pain. I’m glad I’ve never had to go down that road (read: my wife is VERY tolerant – a true saint)
Its cheaper to keep her. but I might have killed her =)
The courts are way to skewed to keep fighting this. I don’t have the bankroll to keep getting defeated because I don’t wear a skirt. Well… not in public anyway =)
Dunno the answer to all of those Sol.
I can just say that after my children came out of the “doll-baby” age, the responsibility of raising them fell more and more on myself. In fact, the kids would come to me because their mother would say “go ask your father.” heh
I was the one who helped them with homework, assigning them household chores and went to all their extra curricular activites. I recall their mother going to one event when the were very young.
I was also working a full time job and a part time job. Their mother was working a part-time time job.
During my divorce, there were no underaged children as all of my children were of legal age. But it was comforting that they sat with me during the trial as they knew who the real parent was in the family and they supported me.
For that, I love them and felt I did a decent job as a parent. :)
My advice to you Sol is to keep the role of Father as forthright and solem as you can. Dad’s aren’t supposed to complain and in my opinion they shouldn’t.
Be the strong one, be your children’s rock and put their interests before yours in all cases. Be firm when you have to and overwhelming understanding when they screw up.
Disregard what the court think and be the best Dad you can. What’s important here is what your children think of you and how you think of your children. They are afterall the number one priority in your role as a Dad.
My two cents, even though it is somewhat deflated under the old fogie standard. :)
Outstanding JM. Sure appreciate it.
1. Mothers are not necessarily the parent of choice. I think traditionally, the mother has been the most apt to put her child’s needs first, but not in all cases.
2. Because she has to pay taxes on what she’s providing for the child as well, and usually it’s more than child support provides.
3. Your ability to get a better paying job not being the custodial parent is a whole lot easier. Child support is always based on what you make at the time- so the standard of living for your child should remain the same as if you were BOTH raising it. Men often screw over women by getting lower paying jobs than when they were married, just to stick it to the woman, and ultimately, the child too.
4. Every other weekend, if the mom is working too, when the heck does SHE get to see the kid then?
5. These are the same rationales I’ve heard the crappiest fathers out there try to use to justify not paying their child support. Women, especially single moms, spend a lot more on their kids than people realize. It’s a soda pop at the store, and a barbie doll here, and paying for a gift for their classmate, and sports shoes, school lunches, enrollment, not to mention having to pay more for housing, food, clothing, electricity…you name it.
Sol, the only really good thing is time.The longer it’s past the better it gets.Sometimes the best you can do is try not to traumitize your kid.
Oh, and don’t go out drinking and whoring around like I did.Unless you can get away with it better than I did.
… or you could do what I did, SLVB, at the TIME of my divorce, I got custody of my children because I was a better choice a a parent.
After the divorce is final, it takes overwhelming evidence to gain custody from the custodial parent.
It is very, very hard for a father to get custody, but the odds are stacked against you once the divorce is final.
You may want to consider going to court to have your “visitation” extended.
I am sorry to say, it is a bitch if you are a man.
Good luck.
BTW – For the females on the blog – that was not a slam on women, exes, etc, it was a slam on the system.
Sol, the following are very general comments in response to your questions. I do not practice Family Law; and, I don’t know what state’s law is involved in your situation. This is not a legal opinion; you should seek assistance from a qualified attorney in the appropriate jurisdiction if you want specifics.
1) There existed, in the law, what is called “maternal preference” in custody matters. Generally, that preference is not the stated law any longer; but in the absence of a showing of unfitness on the part of the mother as a parent, she will, in the case of younger children, often have physical custody. In Kansas, our legal presumption is joint custody, with residential custody being in one parent or the other.
2) Because the Internal Revenue Code doesn’t provide a child support deduction.
3) In Kansas, there are child support guidelines drafted to comply with some federal law; total support is determined on the combined income of the parents, then allocated between them on the basis of per centage of the total earned by each. Future increases/decreases, if material, will result in an adjustment of this post-divorce, as will the age of the child. This is overly simplistic, and I know it; to fully explain would take much too much bandwith. It is my understanding the feds require guidelines based on income of each of the states.
4) Visitation issues; what you are posting seems common to me, at least while school is in session. What about holidays, summers? Suggest you consult with an attorney on this.
5) Good thought; will never happen IMHO. The rationale given in support of the present system is the increased overall costs incurred by the custodial parent as the result of the custody, and the need for the noncustodial parent to contribute thereto. Example; larger residence (house or apartment) than would otherwise be required.
I’m a single full custody dad.
But I have to remember my conservative past and have no more compassion for solie than he does for anyone else.
Society is crammed full of dumb people – just go to Walmart.
Pee,I think you misunderstood my question. What do you tell your kid to do if the teacher asks her to do something unreasonable? Say “no”? Say “hell no” and call you immediately? Start throwing punches? Threaten to sue?
P-Mom
1) Agreed2) Not true. She pays taxes on what she earns. I pay taxes on what I earn, then give her the damn money. If she gets the money, she should pay the taxes.3) I put her sorry ass thru college. Then after the divorce put MY sorry ass thru college. Not buying that one. She is a Bachelor’s RN. I am a lowly IT consultant4) Every damn night. You know what I would give to pray with and tuck my son in every night????? You lose that one sister.5) OK, then why can’t she document it for a few months, or a year. I’m betting she can’t even get CLOSE to the 1,100 I pay her each MONTH. And that is just the money I provide. I am supposed to provide 60%. She can’t even account for the 1,100 much less her share.
Thanx everyone for your input (less jr of course). Gotta scoot. Y’all be good.
When the conversation turns to child-support/alimony payments and the IRS, I’m reminded of a funny story my brother (who is a CPA) told me a few years back.
A client of his somehow got a copy of his ex-wife’s tax return and found out that she had not been claiming his alimony payments to her as income.(Note: alimony IS considered income and is fully taxable.)He mentioned this to his accountant (my aforementioned brother) who said to him “Look, you can turn her in to the IRS. She’ll be liable for back taxes, penalty, interest – and you’ll likely qualify for a finder’s fee.”
The guy thought for a moment and then said “No, I’m not gonna do it. Sure, I hate my ex-wife. But I REALLY hate the IRS.”
Golf, ain’t it the truth!
BTW, for anyone who is interested, and why I really don’t know, on the current 1040 forms (this has been true for a while), if there is an adjustment to income due to payment of alimony, the payor is to report the SSN of the payee, so IRS can look if it wants to do so.
You sound extremely unreasonable and hateful to the mother of your children.
I have a whole lot more reason to despise my ex, and I still don’t talk about him the way you do.
I still to this day hear the same kind of things out of my father- about how my mom stole us kids from him, how he should have been able to raise us….how he’s angry that the state STILL takes money out of his paychecks because he skipped out on child support when we were kids. *they take a whopping 25 a month*.
And I finally just had to tell him- dad, my life would have been pure hell had I been raised by you. He was a drunk who terrorized my mom endlessly when we lived nearby. When he remarried, his new wife HATED having us around. My step father raised me.
Yeah he’s changed as far as not drinking anymore, but back then, I was far better off with my mom.She was an awesome parent who busted her butt to try to make it.
testicles I sent you an email.
Whoa…the thread just took a turn.
So, how ’bout them Jayhawks?
RCJH.
Sol, just wanted to toss my two cents in as a single parent as well
1) agree with pmom on this one2) legally, if we are eligible and collect child support, we have to list said child support as income on our federal and state tax returns, therefore paying taxes on it as well (now, if you are like me and dont get said child support, even with the court order, you don’t have to claim it…) so if she isn’t claiming it, that is illegal and she should hope she doesn’t get audited.3)I don’t necessarily agree with either of you on this one. Yes, in some instances, since you don’t have the extra constraints being a single parent gives, you may be able to make more money due to being able to work more hours, but this is not always true. I believe that Vaughn explained it best – it does change with child’s age as well – $1100 seems rather exorbitant to me, you must make pretty good money, when was the last time you had child support calculated? There is a form they use, which you can get a hold of (in fact, check your custody papers, it should be in there) that you could use to see if you are paying the correct amount and if there should be a decrease – of course, be prepared it could be that there needs to be an increase based on the state’s calculation methods4) I don’t know many parents who wouldn’t want more time with their children. But as my ex likes to bitch about his time (every other weekend and set holiday schedule) I like to point out to him that a) sometimes he doesn’t even show for scheduled visitation b) I have offered him evenings once a week, but that doesnt “work with his schedule” and c) when you break it down, since I work over 40 hours a week, get off at roughly 530, it’s 6 by the time i get home, take out half an hour to make dinner, half an hour to eat dinner (he’s two so he still takes a while) and half an hour for bath, and consider that his bedtime is 8, that leaves me a whopping half hour of quality time with the kid each night, sometimes less depending on what we may or may not have to do that evening… and i frequently work saturdays as well, so take another day out on my weekends, and yeah, he winds up with just as much time as I get in the long run…5) I would be happy to provide an accounting of how child support money is spent, IF i got child support! I even set up a bank account solely for that purpose, that my child support would be deposited into and that certain items would come out of, with the intent that half of whatever hte balance was on 12/31 of each year would go into a savings account in my son’s name. Of course, that bank account is still at the $20 that I used to set said account up with, since I have never gotten any child support…
As earlier threatened, back to the topic with reference to parts 2 and 3 of the series.
In part 2, the author makes a cogent argument for reexamining the desire to attend four year colleges/universities, suggesting that many of those who choose to attend do so for a better career choice. He then suggests that post-secondary vocational training (yes, I know this carries a negative connotation, which I rail against from time to time) would be better for many. While he posits a certain IQ level as being necessary for success in college, that should not detract from his main thesis.
I happen to be in full agreement with him, insofar as the attendance at a post-secondary vocational institution is concerned. There are many bright people who, for whatever reason, irrespective of their own IQ level, who do not do well in the formal 4-year academic institution who could be truly successful in many areas if provided the appropriate training. Mr. Murray points out (correctly, IMHO) that Bill Gates is more likely interested in a talented hacker than whether that individual has a baccalaureate degree in computer science.
In part 3, Mr. Murray argues for more emphasis on a higher level of education for the “intellectually gifted”, and such is not being done in the general classrooms of public education. Further, as I understand his argument, he believes that NCLB, among other things, exists as an impediment to such education. He also stresses the need for educating those with such gifts in humility; to realize it is a gift, and one, by virtue of receiving such a gift, is not inherently superior. I agree totally.
In said part 3, he further makes the point that such students will often never struggle during their K-12 career, and will not know how to deal with it when it comes (as it inevitably does); thus, there needs to be at least some classes of (my words) “self-contained” gifted education, so there are struggles. Again, I agree.
More later; but, if anyone would like to review parts 2 and 3 for him/herself, I would encourage this. The site is, as I recall, http://www.opinionjournal.com. Follow the links.
Wendy,
Child support is NOT taxable income. Spousal support (alimony) is. If you have been reporting child support as taxable income, you are in error, and need to amend the prior years’ returns. I see this isn’t a problem, as you haven’t been receiving any; but I wanted to clarify this for anyone else who might have a concern.
Well, Vaughn, I have noticed on tax returns that you are to list child support if recieved, and it appears to tax it. Since I have never had to list it, I could be wrong, but that is what I have taken from it.
Wendy, the only return form I can think of where child support received is an issue is the one involving the homestead tax credit; and is a consideration for eligibility for the sales tax refund.
I’ve just looked at the 1040 again to be sure; and, once again find that alimony is to be reported, not child support.
I’m dumber than the average bear.
Well, then I stand corrected, Thank you Vaughn, and Sol, apparently my talking point 3 up there is invalid, but was based on my opinions.
See, it isn’t all that hard to admit when you are wrong!
Does anyone else see the irony in the post by my troll?
Jeez, I wonder who your troll might be, P Mom?
My oldest son was one of the bright kids who couldn’t stand High School. He was bored to tears by the 10X repetition of stuff he got the first time around. He and his girlfriend dropped out together. Luckily, his girlfriend’s mother was a friend of ours who was Assistant Dean of Admissions at WSU at the time, and she found a way to get them into the University. My son was on the Dean’s List every semester but one, with a double major in music and computer science.This of course was long before any “No Child Left Behind” program, but it points to the fact that public schools have to design their lessons around an imaginary average student. It’s that one size that has to fit all, but fits nobody very well. It’s also the result of trying to run a school system on the cheap, hiring too many mediocre teachers at low salaries and giving them large classes and limited resources.There is nothing, not superhighways or arenas with somebody’s name on them or fancy offices for state officials, that is more important that the education of our children! There are ways to tailor a student’s education to his individual abilities so that he/she learns as much as he can, and is prepared for a life. All we need to do is provide funds and administrative talent to hire only the best teachers, give them classes they can manage, the resources they need and the freedom to do what they do best; teach each student to achieve the best of his/her abilities.We know how to do it. Do we have the will to provide our next generation, and the generations to follow, the best education they are capable of receiving?
For my concluding act tonight, a few observations:
The U.S. is one of the few countries of which I am aware that holds universal public education (primary and secondary) of the same type and kind should be available to all. Over time, and with the advent of NCLB, this has, it seems to me, translated into college prep for everyone.
It cannot be gainsaid that this goal, laudable as it is, isn’t realistic. We need to take a hard look at whether our system is indeed the best for all.
With the advent of the “service economy”, a higher level of basic education is a necessity; the ability of one to get a manufacturing job, for example, which pays good wages is shrinking. It is my thought that the “good jobs” of the present and future are ones which cannot be “off shored”, if this is a term, but which require a certain level of ability to handle critical thinking, abstract thinking, and a continuing ability to learn new concepts as needed from time to time. This does not take academic preparation in high school for a college degree, in many instances, but does require instruction delivered differently than the “production line” model seemingly required by NCLB.
There must be a change in how the term “vocational education” is perceived. Whether I like it or not, this type of technical education is probably as important, if not more important, than the traditional college education for many of the young folks now in elementary schools. If, for example, a young person is interested in being a carpenter, then the skills needed to be a good carpenter must be available to him or her. As discussed above with Sol, this may include some forms of “applied math” in lieu of the standard traditional math universally offered. The same idea holds with potential machinists; if it is necessary for an understanding of Trig to properly program the CNC machine to do what is needed, then Trig, less the theory, needs to be offered.
I also believe that the ability to think abstractly, such as is learned in Algebra, needs to be developed; an important task in my office is for my clerical folks to be able to appropriately enter formulae into spreadsheet programs for a variety of reasons. Unless the ability to visualize the row/column relationship is there, the needed spreadsheet cannot be constructed by them.
There is much more I want to say, but I’ve already said more than enough, I’m sure. To close, the primary goal of education, public or private, should be to allow each student to fully maximize his/her academic potential, notwithstanding its level. I fear we do not accomplish that now.
Being anti-union, I have to wonder if the National Education Association (the teacher’s union) doesn’t have some responsibility here. We’ve been fighting poor test scores for quite a while. We even passed a big bond issue because “the kids can’t learn in old timey schools and portables” of course, that is hogwash,(sounds like an excuse or, at least, a delaying tactic)Don’t forget, the union is there for the teachers, the students don’t have a union.
F*** anti union people.
Okay, so that’s shallow. But I am a union rep, and Fleetwood does nothing here but lob ad hominems at actual working people.
F*** Fleetwood, too.
If you can show an “ad hominum” attack (if you even know what it means), I will gladly apologize.Typical.
Unions are pollution. What kind of person looks themself in the mirror and says “I can’t earn a living on my own, I need somone to hold my hand for me.” This is what unions want people to believe. I guarantee that members of unions are the least intelligent demographic that exists in our country.Where else can someone be a worthless lazy ignorant redneck and make $50,000…wherever a union does the talking. Unions are robbing industry of progress.I HATE UNIONS
If you are a union rep…you are probably a liar. There is no conceivable way that any union leadership make honest statements. The whole idea is to spread uncertainty and fear. What results is some fat slob bitch with a high paying job bitching because a manager emptied a trash can.
Labor unions are poison in the US economic system.
The end.
Boy, these threads sure do go all over the place topic wise. I’m just as bad as any one here. Unions are sometimes bad. But without them, Corporate American WILL drive it right up the ass of the regular working stiff.
What needs to happen is a positive relationship develope between Unions and Business. For example, getting into a Union is supposed to require your amongst the best at what you do. Employers should be able to count on unions providing the best trained most professional workers. The union should be running off the slackers WITH the employers instead of protecting slackers. At the same time, unions insure those few chosen are taken care of fairly, have a save work environment. Provide a large pool (affordable) group medical, and retirement, thus relieving employers of the headache.
Just my .02
Yep, freedom freak, it is interesting to watch how threads develop, diverge, etc.
Back to the original topic, if I may. I have been amazed that nobody, other than Mary, has directly considered the thesis of the first part of Mr. Murray’s series, which is, given a normal distribution of IQ, the schools cannot be expected to raise the academic performance of those in the lower two quartiles of IQ scores to comply with the requirements of NCLB, no matter how hard they try.
While I may disagree with his proposition of a “normal” distribution, and of his corollary that an IQ of 100 is the “mean” for this purpose, I agree that there are those in the classroom that just don’t have the basic abilities to be successful, as measured by NCLB, and that it is foolish to think expenditure of any amounts of money and effort will change this.