As Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., noted, it’s "good news" that the Bush administration apparently will no longer conduct warrantless wiretaps. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced in a letter to Congress Wednesday that the administration got approval for its domestic spying program from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. The nature of this approval is unclear: Was it a blanket approval? Or must the administration get a warrant in each individual case? It needs to be the latter.
Americans want our government to spy on and hunt down terrorists. But there needs to be a judicial check to make sure there was probable cause for the spying. That’s why a federal judge struck down the program as illegal and unconstitutional.
The administration’s flip is likely more a result of the Democratic takeover of Congress than a change of heart. Still, as Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., noted: "If they are doing a backflip toward following the law, that’s a lot better than their original position."
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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36 Comments
How much better is this situation. As I understand it:
number of cases before this secret court = classified
Who is on this court = classified
nature of what is before this court = classified
I don’t think I or too many other people need to know any of the above. But clearly, this change is symbolic only and of no practical substance. In general, I am against symbolism – especially when I have to pay for it.
Sort of related to this thread – “King of Oppositeland”
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/land.html
Terrorists 1 – Bush 0
Brought to you by the Liberal Values referee team.
If abiding by the laws of our country, especially for the Commander in Cheif, is a liberal value…..Then I’m sure there’s liberals everywhere that are proud to be called that JM.
“The announcement is “good news, it will help keep the country safe,” said Senator Pat Roberts, a Kansas Republican and former Intelligence Committee chairman”
Is Pat Roberts a member of “the Liberal Values referee team”?
Sure thing Tracy, the constitution as it applies to terrorists, yep..(wink wink)
Pat musta forgot to take them damn memory pills again.Bless his poor old decrepit heart.
“Pat, over here buddy, you keep forgetting what side of the isle your on.”
“Sammy-get his pills, damnit Pat, ya’ just gotta remember to take your memory pills if you wanna be a senator, remember?”
JM, I didn’t mention that ol’ scrap of paper.I said the LAW.You know, FISA?
Pat, can JM have some of those pills too?
There is a book out written by some guy named D’Souza…about how liberal values caused 9/11…with the whole freedom thing.
Osama hates freedom. So if Osama hates liberalism…then that would mean that he and Bush hold the same ideology?
I knew I’d find a way to say Bush and Osama are on the same team! And look it was a neocon who wrote the book for me!
Maybe Sen Roberts finally realized that having a government with unlimited power is not a wise idea. Soon anybody that disagrees with the government, rocks the boat, embarrasses government leaders ect becomes a “terrorist” Sadly terrorist is becoming the new “red” used to keep people cowering in fear ready to sign over their rights and advocating even new government power.
mom, I saw that clown on the boob tube.He’s simply stolen everything Chomsky’s ever written……and then left out all the parts about conservatives.
There’s some on both sides that are guilty of the misdeeds and missed opportunities,however, he’s only reporting on what the dems side did.
It’s a very good thing that Bush has changed his mind. As long as the FISA court is not stacked with three Republican activists judges.
Did Brownback flip flop on this one?
Appaerntly, the administration had been secret negotiating with the FISA court for about a year-and-a-half. They were none too happy about the illegal program, but were forbidden from going public.
This is a moral victory for those who of us who noted that the Executive branch cannot ignore inconvenient laws. I mean, duh.
To my recollection, FISA has strict procedures that have to be followed, i.e. But If Bush tries to “bend” them–and I bet he will–who will know? The FISA judges will, but. . .who will they tell? The FISA court may have merely agreed not to join Judge Robertson in resigning in protest.
Senator Specter is none happy about being left in the dark as former Chairman, particularly about the secret negotitations (imagine that–try “negotiating” your own deal with a judge sometime!). With Leahy at the helm (and no Bill Frist to shut things down), there may be some attempt at congressional oversight. Even closed-session hearings would be better than what we have now.
I suspect Gonzales saw the real possibility of illegal activities being exposed for what they were, and decided it was time to cut a deal.
P.S. It takes a genuine imbecile to equate obeying the law with supporting terrorism. Hey, I like “24″ too, but it’s only a TV show. . .
Rage, I think there is more truth to your suggestion concerning “cutting a deal” than either of us will ever know.
The existence of the FISA court, and my albeit limited understanding of how it’s to operate, always made me wonder why the Administration went out of its way to avoid it. Again, I suspect we’re not going to know the reasons.
political mom,
They have to keep blaming the liberals for 9/11 so the people won’t blame US policies in the middle east. Osama said that he wanted our military out of Saudi Arabia and Americans out of the Muslims countries.
VT, The NYT and WaPo articles gave us some clues (sorry, no time to link). The admin appears not to have liked the idea of specific warrants for specific suspects.
Smile: You’re on Candid Camera.
Rage, I don’t think JM ‘got it’.Try again later.
“They have to keep blaming the liberals for 9/11…”
Yes, if they didn’t people, would ask questions about 1) “Who was commander in chief at the time before and during the 9/11 attacks?” 2) “Who was national security advisor before and during?” 3) “Have there been consequences for their lousy job performance?” NO! would be the answer to the last question – that is not how our CEO president does things…
We’ll see won’t we. :)
scenario:
Terrorist attack sometime in the US in the near future.
Outcome: hundreds dead, thousands injured.
Outraged Public Questions: You are supposed to protect us, how come you didn’t, don’t you have spies or something?
Government Agency: yes, but infiltrating these groups takes years if not decades. It was easier when we could eaves drop on suspected terrorist and their support organizations.
Outraged Public: So who says you can’t?
Government Agency: The people that were against the Wiretapping Act were afraid of losing their rights of privacy.
Outraged Public: I’m writing my Congressman about this!
Government Agency: Okay, but it won’t do any good.
Meanwhile, the cries of victims and their families are heard around the nation. News media blame the Government Agencies not protecting them and ask for an investigation.
Later, a suspect was caught and his computer was gathered up as evidence in a case as ordered by a Judge for search and seizure.
Newspaper: The computer had the information all along and the Government didn’t do anything about it.
Government Agency: That’s right, we were restricted by law in doing so and wiretapping without cause, we could not monitor them.
Newspaper: The American people should have those in charge fired and we should correct this. (nothing in the paper of how to correct this.)
:)
Pat Roberts calls this change “good news.”
Strange, why didn’t he call it “bad news” when they were wiretapping without warrants?
Because then he wouldn’t have been kissing Bush’s ass and Robert’s primary goal is to always kiss his ass . . .
If Bush ever stops suddenly in his tracks, Pat Roberts will go from a Senator to a Proctologist.
Gotta give it to you, ws, that was funny~I see me stealing that one.
I am seeing this as an attempt to get people to forget what was done. If enough shiny objects are placed in front of the American public, they will have a short memory. Till any illegal or un-American acts can be forgotten. The Neo-conservative like to spin it as liberalism or supporting the terrorists, but it is and always has been. About us, the people, our way of life and what has made this country the greatest in the world. Our core believes in a better way, it is that the Al-Qaeda wished to destroy and what Bush&Co was dong was aiding them in their quest.
You do not save your house from a tornado by burning it to the ground, nor do you save the country and her people by tearing down that which makes it great and the envy of other. Yes our very freedoms have been used as a weapon against us. But you can not save those freedoms by taking them away for a free people.Our freedoms, the rights of the people are worth every last drop of blood to defend. Our way of life is not about the people that live them. It is about the ideas that in the beginning other thought could never be made to work. We proved them wrong after 1776 and it is only through holding those higher principals can this country survive or deserve to. The Soviet Union did not fall because of Ragan, it fell because it was the wrong idea. Every nation who holds it welfare above that of its people will fail, if we are willing to give up those freedoms and right in the pursuit of saving this country then we will fail.
Plays Stars and Stripes Forever for writerdog in C minor on a harpsicord.
that’s the way to hurt the right wingers Tracy. pip’em with the word-of-the-day of nbc and other liberal media outlets – “neocon.” ouch! and i thought that it was just a rubbish post-modern word coined by my colleagues in the history department so they could blame all the world’s ills on the republicans rather than accepting part of the blame themselves. the need to be pc is crippling the usa.
isadore – Can we get an English translation? My gibberish translator has the night off.
Heheheh, another total zinger, WS!
A right-winger zinger.
You are on a roll, my friend.
Well said, writerdog. Very well said.
Thanks JM but I perfer the stars and stripes played on the guitar.
Thanks to you too RustyFord.
THis is a”Backflip” for those who opposed what the WHite House was doing.
THe FISA court gave them a blanket ok, after all the fuss was raised.
So, the “illegal wiretaps” goes on. THe FISA court OK’ed them. That is why the President no longer has to have the executive order here, it is now legal in the FISA court, and the same activities go on under a blanket notifications.
The looney left lost this one.
Writerdog,
Give me a break.
If there were a scale from 1-1000 1000 being our freedom and 1 being complete control by government we went about .001 to the 1 with these measures enacted by Bush to stop terrorists.
Yet we have people acting like they can’t go out their front door without being intercepted by government agents.
Give me a break.
No freedoms were lost before, and we are still doing the same thing only with a marginal additon of scrutiny to make people feel better.
JM you are FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUL OF SHIT! Man, you don’t really believe in surrendering the core values of this country do you?
I, an ordinary citizen could send a message to saudi arabia if I knew someone there that pertained to terrorist activity, and the government would be none the wiser. How do you think the KGB and CIA communicated/communicate?
You send your soldiers out into the field with code books. Simple conversations about off the wall things that mean somethign totally different. Or take out a singles add in a newspaper where certain key words trigger an attack.
The bottom line is that the Bush administration has us on a slipper slope. They are using 9/11 as the defining act that will empower government to change how it operates. Rumsfield had issued memos decades ago about “a single defining act that will allow us to broaden government powers.”
Then 9/11 happened. We find that the Bin Ladden and Bush family are closer than most cousins. Their were 2 kinds of planes in the sky on 9/12. Military, and the ones evacuating the rest of the BinLadden family off of American soil. FBI agents went on record saying those family members were the most valuable leads to finding Osama.
9/11 an inside job? Not sure. Did people know something like that was coming, and let it, YES! Not just the Bush clan either. The Clintons were all about big dark scarey secretive government also. Remember all the government seiges against freedom fighters when Clinton was in power? I do!
I’m foaming at the mouth, so I better shut up.
Its funny all the con’s would suddenly change their sucking up to big government tune, If new anti-terrorism regulations involved collecting data on gun owners, registering gun owners ect.
I think I have a new hero.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070119/ap_on_re_us/tax_trial_4
It looks like the possibility of a new ruby ridge could happen. Have to admit tho it puts the government in quite bind. If they go in guns blazing they risk loss of life in both sides and bad publicity, if they cave in because of the threat of violence, then more people use their 2nd amendment rights to stand up to the government and not pay taxes.
“THe FISA court gave them a blanket ok, after all the fuss was raised.
So, the ‘illegal wiretaps’ goes on. THe FISA court OK’ed them.”
Yet another pathetically ignorant rant.
The facts:
The administration has stated that they have stopped the illegal spying program (and it WAS ilegal–no quotes–as it violated the Foreign Intelligence Surveilllance Act).
“These orders can provide the speed and agility that is needed and that was available under the terrorist surveillance program. And in these circumstances, as a result of the approval of these orders, the President has determined that he will not be reauthorizing the terrorist surveillance program when the current authorization expires.”
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2007/01/doj011707.html
However, we DON’T know what the FISA actually agreed to–if anything–as they won’t tell us (same link above).
In fact, the senior FISA judge is REQUESTING PERMISSION from the adminstration to talk about it!
“Gonzales offered few answers, maintaining during 3 1/2 hours of sharp rebukes that disclosing details of the program would expose sensitive security information.
His resistance was underscored by a letter from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court’s presiding judge, offering to detail some of its new authority with lawmakers if allowed to by the Bush administration.
‘Are you saying that you might object to the court giving us a decision that you publicly announced?’ Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., asked. ‘Are we a little Alice in Wonderland here?’
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan19/0,4670,DomesticSpying,00.html
FISA, as written, allows for secret warrants to be issued, up to three days after the surveillance has already taken place. To my recollection, more than 19,000 warrants have been requested; FIVE have been rejected.
It requires a delusional mentality to believe that this tiny safeguard against abuse somehow impairs national security.
And, remember, this particular administration has shown, time and time again, that it cannot be trusted with the open-ended power it so plainly craves.
Any judicial oversight is better than none, but only a fool could believe that the FISA court–or ANY court–approved anything like the ‘program’ as it was being operated. The FISA court operates according to statute and, much as some would like to believe it, cannot just ignore the law anytime the Executive branch demands it.
ABSESTOS is right about exactly one thing: This ain’t over.
P.S. This, at least, is radically different:
“But I will say that the probable cause determinations we’re talking about are subject to review and approval by the (audio gap).”