State Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, seemed goofy in proposing a law to allow public schools to spank students. But a California assemblywoman has outdone him. Sally Lieber wants to outlaw spanking of children younger than 4 years old. Violators could get a maximum of one year in jail and a $1,000 fine.
Parents need to be careful how and when they spank, doing so judiciously and not when they are angry. There are also good discipline alternatives to spanking that more parents need to use. But a simple occasional swat is not child abuse and doesn’t teach children, as Lieber claims, that “it’s OK to beat or dominate children or animals that are smaller.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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47 Comments
We were discussing this in poli chat a few nights ago. The funny thing was, some guy, who finally admitted he had no children, was going on and on about how to raise them.
The consesus finally came down to the fact that some parents have never spanked or even swatted, and their kids are fine. Others have spanked, and their kids are fine. None of us beat our children.
As a mother of four, I can honestly say that each child required different handling when it came to discipline. And I’m still known to give a swat to a grandchild’s padded backside when he or she does something dangerous, like racing out the locked door (they’re crafty critters) and running into the street. And I’m not an abuser.
It has always got me how it is a generation that came from where a spanking was the method of punishment. are the ones saying it is wrong and will only cause the kid to be violent. Yet they came from that type of household and see how bad they turned out to be! God I do so get tired of saying that.
No more wire hangers!
I agree w/ RD. Every kid takes a different approach. My oldest – look at him with the ‘mommylook’ (you know what I’m talking about) and he apologizes and sins no more. My middle – put her in time out she hates being still. Still don’t know what will work with the youngest (she’s still a baby). But yes, I have swatted the older 2 when I really wanted to impress on them what they did was wrong (always with my hand and never when I was angry).
My wife and I always try to mix in a little spanking on special nights like anniversaries and birthdays. She likes it when I…
Oh wait.
Nevermind.
RD – well said. I am sure we both would much rather hug than spank but there are times when it is required. I am reminded of the old thing “this is going to hurt me more than you” – i always hated it but now realize it is true.
Balls, you’re in rare form already.It’s gonna be a fun blog day.
and yes, I was spanked as a child. That was the only form of discipline used on me (even though I personally feel it wasn’t the most effective) and no it wasn’t with always with a hand. Grandma used her hand or a flyswatter on a covered behind. Mom always used a leather belt on a bare behind.
Yeah, I’m in a good mood. It’s a good day to keep it light and pithy on the blog.
Unfortunately, I’ve got customers coming in from Chicago, and I’ll probably be pretty busy.
I agree with RD, each child needs a different approach. And spanking and abuse are not the same thing!
But that being said, I remember when I was in nursing school and I was doing my Maternal Child rotations, and I had a young teen mom whose mother was a real pain in the rump. I was trying to teach the teen about childproofing a home, and the grandmother interjected- “we don’t do that- that kid’ll learn when I whoop his butt”.
And I said to her, “well I wouldn’t take the chance of letting the kid die because you never know how many swats it’ll take before he learns his lesson”
Grr I was so mad. People are so stupid. And I wonder why I had a teen mom on my hands? Yep she learned the hard way too by gosh!
The devil in me wanted to say ‘yeah and I bet you said your daughter would never have sex too’.
i think this paper really speaks because spanking kids in school is child abuse
sashquash,No way. Back in the day when spanking was allowed, kids were more obedient and learned more. However, we also had better teachers. Today…I don’t want some disgruntled educator wailing away on my kid.
Julie,
I remember getting it with the flyswatter, too. A few times with one of those wooden paddles that the ball came off of.
Ben, it really does hurt me more than them. I started getting arthritis in my fingers early, and a smack to their backsides was extremely painful…for me.
A flyswatter stings, but doesn’t injure.
Lets remember that its California.. Stupid laws central. Cant do this, this is illegal, oh you must do this or we’ll fine you.
*humbug*
‘…Back in the day when spanking was allowed, kids were more obedient and learned more. However, we also had better teachers.’
Kids were better behaved ‘back in the day.’ However,there is no proven causality between that and spanking.They were probably better behaved because society overall held respect for authority in high-esteem.Did parents ‘back in the day’ go into the teachers offices and question what they were teaching, their teaching methods, and their moral character? Do parents do that now? Do parents now talk about that sort of crap at home? If parents don’t respect teachers, there is no way their kids will.
Here’s an idea, pass the law about spanking, but put a rider: each parent gets a swat every time their kid does.
(I have no agenda against spanking, in fact, I have no problem with a good smack on the ass once in a while.)
A nit to pick, Golf, with the contents of your 10:22 AM post about “better teachers”. Maybe you have found that to be true; frankly, the teachers my daughters had K-12 were, with one or two exceptions, much better than those I had to suffer “back in the day”.
brian, your comments about respect for authority are ’spot on’, IMHO, and the lack thereof is a part of the current mess I see in primary and secondary education.
I can see it now in California, some visiting grandparent visits and gets arrested for swatting their grandchild on the butt for bad behavior.
Good point JM. Or, in my case, when the family visits CA and we have to discipline our little “angels”
Ben, just be sure they’re at least 4 years of age, and you’ll be OK. :)
Any thoughts on how spanking, something that was in our recent history common practice and part of child-raising, can now get you a visit from SRS if the wrong person sees you do it in the supermarket?What has changed in our society so people like Journey and Leiber feel they have the obligation as elected ‘representatives’ to try to stop spanking?
The problem is that society as a whole worships youth and fails to respect the aged. I blame this on my generation, the “don’t trust anybody over 30″ group.
Think about it. Most everything is now geared toward the young. How many channels on cable/satellite, not counting the movie channels are for kids and teens? When I was a kid (back in the dark ages), we had Saturday morning cartoons, and weekdays had Captain Kangaroo and Romper Room in the morning, with Mickey Mouse Club in the late afternoon.
How many radio stations are there for teens? FM, not AM talk radio, of course.
Look around in stores. It’s hard for any female over 40 to find clothes that don’t bare her middle, something I’d really rather not do…or see!
We stick our old folks in homes, visiting whenever we have to, when “back then” they were a major party of the extended family. We valued the knowledge they’d acquired over their longer life and experience. Now, nobody seems to care. The younger generation, especially, has an “I know it all” attitude. Respect is gone with the wind.
RD, I have to agree, even though I am part of that younger generation.
Of course, I also spank my son when necessary, so I guess that makes me one of few.
And yes, there is a difference between a spanking and a beating. For one, my son wears a diaper, so it really does not hurt him, and for two, it teaches him consequences. He is a well behaved child, I very rarely have to spank him anyways. Time out generally does the trick. I can take my child in public and he won’t throw tantrums or scream or throw food or any of those crazy things. Which is why I am constantly astounded by the parents of children who do so. But one thing is that I do take him and expose him to those environments, so he learns how to behave. The only real issue we have right now in public is at church. He likes to “read” (again he is two, so the attention span is rather short) so I typically take his board book bible with us to church. The problem being that he “reads” out loud, and when I try to quiet him I typically get a “No!” in response, much louder than my shushing. I worry that the “reading” may be disturbing to other members of the church… so I am a bit stuck as to what to do there. Last week I managed to get him to whisper when he was “reading”. Advice anyone?
We never spanked our kids. We’d seen the dangers of hitting a child in anger, and hitting them when we weren’t angry seemed a pretty cold-blooded thing to do.All things considered, I thought of myself as a fairly laid-back parent, but if you had asked my kids at the time, they would have told you that next to me, Hitler was a kindly elder statesman. Must’ve achieved some sort of balance there, because our kids seem to have come out fine.
Sally usually likes the cuffs with a little fur around them so they won’t bind to much.
Then a smartly applied velvet Riding crop.
Don’t automatically assume that kids who misbehave in public do so because of bad parenting. You never know whatt is really behind it.
I automatically assume bad parenting – what else could it possibly be? Bad society?
You know the answer to this testicles.
Disability. I guess it’s a good thing that we didn’t meet with my son for lunch afterall.
And, if you’ve got an out of control child thanks to some illness or syndrome – taking him to Walmart or Applebees where he can misbehave is equally bad parenting.
My child has the right to be where anyone else is, just because he is disabled does NOT mean he has to be holed up in the house.
And how else does he learn to deal with that environment if I don’t put him in it.
Pee,My son’s best friend is autistic, and we meet them at McDonalds regularly so they can play in the Playplace. Occasionally the friend has a challenging moment, but his mom/dad does not just dismiss it as his disability.
And, if you think I’d be anything but completely understanding of your child’s problem, you don’t know me at all. But, if he’s out of control on a regular basis, you have no business taking him to Burger King.
“…has a right…”
is a phrase I see you over-use regularly.
What about the rights of those that go to Applebees expecting a nice dinner and get seated by a family with an out of control child – and the parents dismiss it as “his disability”? Aren’t their rights being infringed?
Remember when we were talking about smoking sections in restaurants, and you said if you really wanted to eat somewhere that didn’t allow smoking, you’d make sure you got good and smoked up in the car so that those seated within 20 feet of you could smell you and your residual smokers odor. Remember that?
I can see where you’re very interested in YOUR rights, even if they intrude on the rights of others.
Very liberal of you.
I can promise you that I don’t merely stand there while my son acts up. But at the same time, there is no way to know when he’s going to start freaking out, or for whatever reason just starts acting out.
Did you notice where I offered to meet you? Someplace appropriate for a child like that? But there are also times when for like a family anniversary or something where we ALL gather at Applebees or someplace similar. And my son and I shouldn’t have to stay home and miss those events because of his disability.
As far as smoking- yeah, because if I was in my smoking section, they wouldn’t have to smell me.
So…the rights of others don’t really mean anything to you. Right?
Yup.Didn’t think so.
Me being in a smoking section didn’t infringe upon anyone else’s rights.
Remember, they even voted against an option to allow businesses to create enclosed smoking sections with ventilation. Now that they’re trying to take away people’s rights to smoke EVEN OUTDOORS, this is not about their health. It’s about sticking it to smokers, and I plan to stick it right back.
Rights?I don’t ever recall reading anything about the right to enjoy Applebees in the Bill of Rights or Constitution.
KSgNut,”he’s out of control on a regular basis, you have no business taking him to Burger King”
Would you care to offer a definition of ‘out of control’? I need to know what to look for and if I should take my kids out to eat tonight.Thanks for your help
Like I said, Pee…The rights of others don’t really mean anything to you.
brian,”Don’t automatically assume that kids who misbehave in public do so because of bad parenting. You never know whatt is really behind it.”
Posted by: political_mom | January 23, 2007 at 03:32 PM
You’ll have to ask her for the definition.
You’re so full of it floggytesticles.
Your words speak for themselves. You simply don’t care about the rights of others. In fact, you won’t even deny it.
Today I met a 4 yr old who is on medication for ADHD, I can’t begin to tell you how much that pisses me off. When my kids had too much energy, I made them run laps outside around the house.Parents need to turn off the TV, throw out the video games, and make the kids read books and play outside. Childhood obesity and ADHD are disorders created by our culture. It’s insane that 10% of American children are on medication for their behavior.
BTW, I don’t believe in spanking, either.
Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone could just get along? Maybe restaurants should be banned so no one could smoke in them, or take their children who are in their formulative years, or be the cause of overeating.
On the other hand, maybe if we would just quit spanking our children completely, the school shootings could increase to keep the media busy and give us something to watch on TV since we can’t go to the restaurants anymore. When I grew up, no one brought a gun to school because they knew the consequences at school and at home.
I really believe that since the adults now days do not look to the future or the consequences of non punishment, neither do their children. We will all pay for it in the end.
A pro-spanking activism list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cp_prosecutions
A spanked child and a battered child in the hospital are two different situations, but they are both wrong and both dangerous.
Children have yet to be given equal protection to spouses and animals. A husband may not control a wife by hitting in our country, we can’t control an Alzheimer’s patient by hitting, so why can’t we protect other family members in the same way? (The children) It isn’t even acceptable to hit your dog anymore. And I think that our children should be treated better than animals…
I like to remind people who feel that spanking is effective that there is a difference between effectiveness and legitimacy.
If you have to resort to spanking someone, then you are the one who is out of control, not your child. (Unless it is self defense) “
“Humiliation and shame and spanking are not legitimate motivators. Over the last century, a number of professionals concerned with children (pediatricians, psychiatrists, and social workers) have formally adopted positions in opposition to spanking, paddling, or humiliating child in any way. These specialists have paid attention to the research demonstrating that the long-range damage to children far outweighs the immediate advantage of controlling behavior through punishment” (Jane Nelsen, Ph.D.If you spank (inflict pain as punishment) someone, you are making someone pay for their mistakes when you should be helping them to learn from their mistakes. You help someone learn from their mistakes by making use of the natural consequences that occur, not by inflicting artificial consequences. “I am tying your shoes, so you won’t trip and fall.” You don’t say “if you don’t tie your shoes, I’m gonna spank you”Yeah, the second example may be effective in getting someone to tie their shoes, but it is not legitimate because this is not true obedience – it is obedience out of fear. It means that big people can hit little people. Big people can hurt little people. And might makes right. People who think hitting is an appropriate way of dealing with a problem should change. If all you care about is control, you need to become more sensitive because parenting is about caring, nurturing, guiding and helping a child express their emotions. Parenting is not about having an obsession with control. That would be a dictatorship – and all to say to that rearing style is God please help their kids.
This issue extends far beyond children and spanking. It leads ultimately to the difference between “power” and “strength”….something applicable for countries, too.
I can remember as a kid that my father didn’t have to spank me. he only had to look at me in a certain way and I knew I was on the edge. In fact he never touched me….but I knew that he would. That was power. He achieved what he wanted through MY perception of the consequences without HIS having to do one thing.
So, power increases when it is used and isn’t exhausted by use…in fact, it is enhanced.
Strength, on the other hand, also leads to compliance, but it does this through the expenditure of actual physical force. Therefore, strength is used up in its application.
Think of POWs versus demonstrators. Very few guards have been necessary (relative to POW populations) in most cases because the POWs PERCEIVE the consequences of their actions and fall into line.
On the other hand, a single determined protester might require up to 10 cops to subdue him…application of strength in this instance.
So, ultimately, with kids and with countries, we want there to be a perception of power that makes them, by their own accord, fall into line. In so doing, our power is enhanced. If we need to resort to the actual application of force, then our “strength” is used up in gaining compliance, and it makes it hard to use strength in a future incident.
Power must certainly be backed up by strength, but it is the difference in how they function that we must understand…power is enhanced in its proper use by the PERCEPTION of those upon whom it is used, while strength is expended in the ACTUAL act of gaining compliance, thus weakening us.
Smart statesmen have always resorted to power…and strength only as a last resort.
I got spanked as a kid (bare butted with a belt) and I don’t see what the problem is people have with it. It’s just a punishment. Punishments aren’t meant to be pleasant events.