Outgoing Attorney General Phill Kline is appointing Wichita attorney Don McKinney, an anti-abortion activist, to handle his case against Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller — regardless of what happens at today’s Sedgwick County court hearing on whether to reinstate misdemeanor charges against Tiller. “This appointment of an independent special prosecutor will remove this investigation from a highly charged political process,” Kline claimed. Oh, please. This appointment is about trying to continue an ideologically motivated investigation and forcing incoming Attorney General Paul Morrison to have to end it.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
UPDATE: Judge Paul Clark refused today to reinstate the charges against Tiller.
309 Comments
And how much will this cost the taxpayers?
Atta boy Phillip, we knew you could remain objective about this. heh heh
Herr Kline is harder to kill off than Rasputin was. :)
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
From Operation Rescue Blog:
Don McKinney Says:
May 26th, 2006 at 2:57 pmPaul was the real deal. A true Christian warrior. He was a great “leader” in the purest sense: unlike many pro-life “leaders”, Paul didn’t try to build a worldly organization with himself at the top of the pyramid, ordering underlings into battle. Paul “the Jackal” deParrie had little interest in fundraising or building his own kingdom. When pro-life factions warred against each other over territory, authority, publicity, or membership/support base, Paul stayed above it all and focused on saving babies. Like Christ, Paul was a real “leader” in that he went first, he led the way into battle, he didn’t exercise authority over others or lord it over anyone –he just did the work himself and inspired us all as an example, like Christ, of servanthood, bravery, and self sacrifice. Matt. 20:24-26.
Back in 1991, the Wichita Rescue Movement kicked off the Summer of Mercy with some rescues at local clinics, one of which included the arrest of Rich Mulliins. Shortly thereafter, the “first wave” hit Wichita with Joe Scheidler and the PLAN convention. One of the first guys I met was a round, hairy character with a dark beret, carrying a lot of cameras. He told me he was a reporter for “Life Advocate.”’ He was extremely knowledgeable about the issues and tactics. We hit it off immediately and went to municipal court together to help some Christians who had been arrested.
I am honored to say that Paul was my friend. Over the years, we consulted frequently on legal issues and spiritual concerns. When Wichita’s Lawyers for Life held an event of rallys and seminars, the Jackal came to town and conducted a seminar on do-it-yourself legal tactics. It was probably the most popular seminar we had.
For the ten year reunion of the Summer of Mercy, Paul and Bonnie stayed in our home, and my family was blessed by their spirit, humor, and intelligence. Paul called us last week, just a few days before he departed for his heavenly home. When we heard the news of his parting, we were staggered.
Paul can’t be replaced. He was the best that pro-life has to offer. He was a constant witness for the unborn, and he probably personally witnessed to hundreds of thousands of people, standing outside of conventions, rallies, and events with his posters and costumes. Without him, many favorable court decisions would never have been obtained. We are each going to have to step up our own efforts to fill the gap in the wall left by Paul’s passing.
He was not only a servant/leader but he was a great writer. Unlike so many of the fundraising “newsletters” that we get in the mail, with their self-aggrandizing oratory, flowery grandiloquence and ranting propaganda, Paul really knew how to write and report. Paul’s work (and the work of the others) at Life Advocate, was monumental in the pro-life movment, and no pro-life library is complete without some of Paul’s books like “The Rescuers”; “Blood Upon the Rose”; and “THe Unholy Sacrifices of the New Age.” Every pro-lifer should check out his books still available on eBay and at abe.com.
Above all, Paul was a true Christian brother. His religion was not head knowledge and doctrine. He was not legalistic. There was no ounce of pride or rebellion in his motivations. He had the spirit of God in his heart and practiced the gifts of the Holy Spirit. He was joyful and merciful, loving, humble, and kind — all while warring fiercely against the powers of darkness.
And there was one other thing about Paul that contantly amazed me: he and I almost always agreed about everything — from church issues to pro-life controversys to legal tactics. He was a true brother. I can’t wait to see him again.
Donald “the Dingo” McKinneyRescue web site.
If Phill Kline appointed the special prosecutor to remove this case froma highly political process – then why did he appoint a well-known Operation Rescue supporter to be the prosecutor?
Every tactic Phill Kline uses just gives the anti-abortion crowd another black eye. Rather than really trying to reduce abortions in this country, it is people like Phill Kline that makes the already deeply divided nation even more deeply entrenched into two camps.
Or is it simply a way to get some more public money into the Operation Rescue coffers by hiring this special prosecutor?
Sounds like the “special prosecutor” will be exercising true prosecutorial independence and discretion….
Gee, it couldn’t be that Tiller is doing something wrong could it??? What matters is if there is a violation of the law, NOT THAT PHILL KLINE IS INVOLVED.
Let the investigation go forth!
If Tiller really is doing something wrong, then get an independent special prosecutor to look into the allegations.
Having a known Operation Rescue supporter to be the special prosecutor already has tainted any hint of independence. Or can’t you see that ron?
Let the investigation go forward . . . with a special prosecutor who will dischargee the obligations of the appointment fairly and with fidelity to the law. The investigation should be transparent and conducted by an attorney who the citizens of the state can have confidence in. Donald “the Dingo” McKinney isn’t the person to do that.
Kline’s hubris knows no bounds.
I guess we’ll find out soon when the Judge decides.
Looks like Phill Kline still has a few cards to play.
I’m not sure who one could hire to be totally independent Special Prosecutor.
This is no different than a pro-choice Judge who has to make a decision. If the Judge makes a decision you don’t agree with, one can appeal.
Thus the process of our Judicial system.
I’ve seen McKinney out protesting at the clinics. I’m told that his legal skills are on a par with his singing voice, which is downright awful! I doubt Tiller has much to worry about.
^^^Totally independent, maybe not. More independent than “the Dingo”, definitely.
If I understand this right, Phill Kline appointed a special prosecutor but Paul Morrison has the right to dismiss the special prosecutor when he is in office? So is this to make Morrison look bad also?
The anti-abortion people already hate Morrison so who is Kline trying to get to change their minds?
I think Kline is just a loose cannon and he is shooting off in all different directions.
“This appointment of an independent special prosecutor will remove this investigation from a highly charged political process,” Kline claimed.
How can you claim that someone can be an independent prosecutor if they are a noted anti-abortion activist? I mean, I understand that by Independent in that sense he means someone not associated with the office of the Attorney General, or the office of the District Attorney, but let’s get real here, this is just another attempt of Phill Kline’s to snowball this case so he can get publicity off of it… I really feel sorry for the people of Johnson County…
I bet singing is not a requirement to attend the bar exam. heh
Perhaps Mr. McKinney will be in his element on this case.
Always made me nervous when the Attorney’s that hired me for their client told me, “It will be fine, don’t worry about so and so, he’s always been mean and asks demeaning questions.” :\
Wondering if this is Mr. Kline’s opening gambit for the next gubenatorial election?
Yes, Suza it puts Morrison between a rock and hard place. Either he lets the special prosecutor go forward and he alienates the Democratic base which embraced him despite the fact he switched parties to fun for AG, or he immediately dismisses the special prosecutor and potentially alienates moderate republicans who followed him to the democratic party for the AG election.
Phill is crazy, but he isn’t dumb.
Oh the waste in human and fiscal resources all in a meaningless crusade.
Say it with me. A woman is going to continue to have a right to choose. This is not going to change.
With 11 days left in his term, Phill “Phelps” Kline can’t keep from throwing more of our tax dollars at abortion issues. And if he thinks Don McKinney is “independent,” wow, what delusional arrogance. Looks like we voters wiped, but we forgot to flush.
Latest; charges not to be reinstated:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/16329520.htm
Yes, and leftists will continue to protest the clubbing to death of harp seals in Canada, while at the same time becoming orgasmic over a women exercising control over her own body and murdering her unborn child.
V.L.R.B!!
Kudos to Nola and double Kudos to Judge Clark for stopping the Phill Kline Last Gasp Statewide Tour. Now if Mr. Morrison will fire Mr. OR a/k/a “Dingo” McKinney, maybe we Kansans can get OFF the abortion issue and back to real crimes and real issues instead of right wing fanaticism exemplified by Phill Phelps Kline and his ilk.
No, Sal. Phill (the second L is for “Liar”) is dumb.
This is the legalistic sh*tting in a paper bag and setting it on the doorstep of Morrison’s AG office.
Kline had four years of AG investigative and prosecutorial power to attack George Tiller. All he came up with was a few piss-ant misdemeanors; charges he was reluctant to bring to court under the provisions of Kansas law.
But that’s not what makes Phill (the second “l” is for Loser) dumb. What makes him dumb is to think he can appoint the Dingo as an “independent” prosecutor and get away with it.
McKinney is as independent in abortion law as Michael Moore is independent vis a vis George WMD Bush.
That Phill (the second “l” is for Lame) could attempt to portray McKinney as “independent,” and say he wanted to reduce the politically-charged matter *by appointing a Democrat!* indicates the people of Kansas made a wise choice: they got rid of a stupid man who’d been Attorney General for a few years.
“Yes, Suza it puts Morrison between a rock and hard place. Either he lets the special prosecutor go forward and he alienates the Democratic base which embraced him despite the fact he switched parties to fun for AG, or he immediately dismisses the special prosecutor and potentially alienates moderate republicans who followed him to the democratic party for the AG election.”-Sal Pingo
I agree that’s Kline’s thinking, but I hardly think that Morrison is going to alienate the moderate Republicans if he immediately dismisses the “special prosecutor”. Kline’s tendency to put his “pro-life” ideology over doing his job is why he lost the AG race in the first place. By appointing an Operation Rescue supporter/fanatic as a so called INDEPENDENT counsel, Kline signaled to the crossover voters that they made the right decision.
Like the op-ed said: “Who is Phill Kline trying to fool?”
Does anyone know how this case ended up on Clark’s docket. He has been in civil for several years. Did Nola go judge shopping, or did the criminal assingment judge protect all the judges who would be facing reelection in the future and assign it to a judge in his last term. I suppose it is also possible Clark was the duty judge that day, but it would highly unlikely that the most senior judge in the Courthouse would have on call duty the Friday before Christmas.
Right on MonkeyHawk; but Phill should never have been elected in the first place and nearly wasn’t. What a waste our tax dollars over the last 4 years Phill has been pandering to his right wing base with nothing but embarrassment to show for it.
Monkeyhawk: Why all the ad hominems. If you have a point make it. You’re little snipings are neither funny nor compelling argument.
I guess Judge Clark wants Sedgwick’s County money now as the case will most likely go higher up the Judicial Food Chain.
The question now is to see if Judge Clark’s jurisdiction will peter out if the case is carried forward.
er that should say, spend more of Sedgwick’s County money…
SalP, a quick check of judge assignments on the 18th Judicial District website reveals that Judge Clark is currently assigned to Traffic/PFA; that would put him nominally back into the Criminal side. Nonetheless, a curious assignment for the most senior judge in the Courthouse, don’t you think?
Wichita – Come, rape our children.
Why is a traffic court judge hearing a case with constitutional ramifications? I’ve never seen a traffic court judge deal honestly with traffic tickets much less issues like this where Tiler has spread tons of cash around to the “judge’s” political party.
Hey, judge, how much for a DUI, or do I pay the prosecutor?
There was already a judge involved in this case and No Warrant Nola took it to this weasel instead.
If you can tell me Clark wasn’t in on the scam from the beginning without laughing, you should be selling swamp land in Florida.
Then there’s the issue that Nola told Clark that she and Kline hadn’t talked about the case when in fact she had.
Wichita – Come, rape our children, buy our courts, our prosecutors. What a nationwide embarrassment we have become. We should rename Wichita Auschwitz West.
Let’s see, Who is Kline trying to fool? Well, Nola certainly has shown that The Eagle is highly gullible, so why not Kline?
To the poster who refused to provide any id, would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to the identity of the Sedgwick County District Court Judge already involved in the case?
No name poster @ 4:01,I wouldn’t put my name on the piece of drivel either.
I have to laugh.
Kline and you antis are not worried about “crimes” or “babies” at all.
YOU are all sexually frustrated (deprived) and merely wish to stick your nose in someone else’s bedroom. YOU know? Since aint nothing doing in yours?
LOL
Is there someone in the Wichita establishment that George Tiller doesn’t own?
Well, I for one am thankful that Judge Clark has put a stop to Kline’s grandstanding… Whtether I agree with Tiller or not to me is not the issue – the issue is whether or not Phill Kline is appropriately using his appointment to the office of Attorney General and the powers it affords him
Oh the waste in human and fiscal resources all in a meaningless crusade.
Say it with me. A woman is going to continue to have a right to choose. This is not going to change.
Jed,I agree! 50,000,000 aborted Americans is definitely a waste of human resources.
Say it with me: The only thing that is permanent is change.
The case is public – that means the public can not only read the charges but they can read all of the legal procedings, court orders, and opinions from judges and even the supreme court.
the only ones being fooled are those who don’t pursue the truth.
forget the media – go find the truth for your self.
“To the poster who refused to provide any id, would you be so kind as to enlighten us as to the identity of the Sedgwick County District Court Judge already involved in the case?”
My guess is that No Name is referring to Eric Yost, who signed Kline’s original complaint.
“Is there someone in the Wichita establishment that George Tiller doesn’t own?”-No Name
Your rhetorical question reveals your myopic world view.
Not going along with Kline does not equal being owned by George Tiller.
I resent the anti-abortion people thinking that all Wichitans want people to come rape children. If Phill Kline was really trying to investigate child rape – then he should go after the child rapists – not Tiller.
Every step Phill Kline has taken has had a cloud of suspicion over his head as to the validity and motive on his part.
That was MY Line Will, not Jeds.
Will? I am really sorry that you aint gettin’ any. Try a new mouthwash instead of trying to ban sex?
Interesting stat. you posted. Just where would those 50,000,000 “people” you cite have found housing or employment? Oh that’s right. You antis don’t concern yourselves with that.
Ah, now I understand. To liberals prosecuting criminals is called “grandstanding”. Trying to protect children from rape is called “protecting a woman’s right to choose”. And a prosecutor who actually enforces laws liberals don’t like is an ideologue.
How silly the rest of us are. I always thought a prosecutor who didn’t prosecute was a crook.
J.R. you’re insults about sex are bizarre and betray a very simple mind.
yes – abortion is legal – women can do with their bodies as they choose.
yes – immigration is legal – foreigners can come to the USA
but much like all the hubub debate on what to do about “illegal imigrants” we now seem to debate “illegal abortions”
what part of ILLEGAL is not clearly understood?
what is statutory rape?en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape
if a minor wants an abortion – then OK.
but how did she get pregnant? Doesnt the law require medical professionals to report these crimes?
names of victims of all kinds of crimes are with held – but the crime is still investigated and prosecuted.
let the un-named minor get the abortion that as leagally definedand let the people that are to uphold the law.
whether they are elected, appointed or hired.
If Kline is really after the child rapist – then go after the child rapist -NOT just Tiller.
How hard is that to understand no name?
Not at all Sal.
If you or any of these other antis were any deeper than I suggest? You’d be posting about how society should provide free medical care, food and housing for every child and its parents in this country. You’d be TRULY pro life.
from suza,…If Kline is really after the child rapist – then go after the child rapist -NOT just Tiller….
Tiller is not the only one on the list.
Tiller knows that little girls are being raped and not only is doing nothing about it, but is and has been paying alot of money to keep the rapists from being caught, prosecuted, and locked up so that they don’t get to someone elses little girl.
Yes, no name, it IS Grandstanding when someone is abusing the power of their position as Phill Kline obviously is… and how do you know whether I am liberal or otherwise? You simply assume… Just because I do not like someone abusing power does not automatically make me liberal (not that there is a problem with that, mind you)… I prefer to think of myself as open-minded. No, I do not personally believe in abortion. I also do not believe that it is my right to tell anyone else what they may or may not do. If Tiller is indeed performing illegal abortions, then Kline should have been able to bring charges through a LEGAL avenue, rather than trying to sneak them in the backdoor without proper authority by claiming that as Attorney General he has ultimate authority – this is grandstanding, and it is an abuse of power. If he is really concerned with Child Abuse, he should have subpeonaed live birth records for underage girls AS WELL as abortion records. This has been nothing but a witch hunt from day one on Kline’s part, and it has finally blown up in his face… and if it makes me a liberal because I feel that way, well then I guess I didn’t know I was a liberal, but so be it…
Just because I called you out as a moron doesn’t mean I’m pro-life or pro-choice. It is very complex issue, I see both sides of the debate and conclude it is a moral quandry I haven’t yet cracked. Consequently I have never expressed an opinion one way or the other. But that is beside the point, if your argument is that pro-lifers should focus on providing for children who aren’t aborted make it. It’s not a bad point to make. But, why all the unfunny insults about Kline and other “not gettin’ any” It just makes you look foolish. You certainly aren’t persuasive when you add unnecessary ad hominen attacks.
from wendy… he should have subpeonaed live birth records for underage girls AS WELL as abortion records.
there are live births at an abortion clinic?
If Kline is going after the child rapists – then publicize that fact and bring charges against the people.
You anti-abortion people really give Tiller too much power and credit. This is just a man that is providing a legal service.
I don’t believe in abortion personally, but it is not my place to judge anyone contemplating the procedure. There are alot of cases where abortion is the best choice.
But to you anti-abortionists, no reason is valid for an abortion.
So rather than having Phill Kline waste the court’s time with his showboating – go after the real child rapists. You can’t tell me that there is no other way to get to the these child rapists than through Tiller – that’s just a bunch of hogwash.
OMG, you anti-choice Nazis are in a tizzy today. What happened, did your crusader-king Phill Kline get his ass handed to him again? Morrison will shut down this”special prosecutor” nonsense with minimal political fallout. What sells well in a “red” state is wasting money. That is exactly what this Kline/McKinney nonsense really is, a waste of TAX DOLLARS. This entire matter will be dead and buried in 2 weeks as far as Wichita is concerned. Of course, JOCO is in for 2 years of Kline and his stormtroopers tactics. It sucks to be them but that’s what they get for letting the rapture-right control their county republican party.
I believe it is moot…as the judge refused to reinstate the charges. Another grandstand by Kline the Klown shot down in flames….
Not every pregnant minor girl has an abortion. If you doubt that, go look at a hospital maternity ward and you will see. Why do the anti-abortionists not care who the father is in those cases?
If you are really concerned about child rapists – then go after ALL health care records of pregnant minor girls – not just the abortion clinic records.
This is why most free-thinking people do not believe the anti-abortion group – you fail to see all the possibilties.
If Judge Yost was being referred to, then he could not hear the case. Judicial Ethics and all that, not to mention the lack of impartiality.
I live in Johnson County. I dread what Kline may have in store for us.
Eric Yost…….he’s right in the anti-choice league with Kline and McKinney!
Hernando, be afraid……….be very afraid! If you were smart in JOCO, you’d be looking into the recall/impeachment process. Also, start lining up moderate candidates for ‘08.
Vaughn, please explain how Yost would be precluded from hearing the case due to “judicial ethics and all that, not to mention the lack of impartiality.” I don’t understand. Was there a motion to recuse him that was granted.
…Abuse of power?….Kansas statute annotate 22-3103, which states if the testimony taken at an inquisition discloses probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed within a county (YOU SHOULD NOTE HERE THAT THE JUDGE WHO SWORE OUT THE WARRANT ON DR. TILLER FOUND PROBABLE CAUSE), the Attorney General may file such testimony together with his complaint or information against the person or persons alleged to have committed the crime.
the dismissals are a stall tactic – the dismissals can be appealed, but the timeing of such appeals can be controled – postponed, rescheduled etc.
the “special appointment” was announced ahead of the hearing because it was known ahead of time that it was going to be refused.
it may still be appealed – who knows – but the “special appointment” gets around the stall tactic.
I just heard on KAKE news that Phill Kline was not even in the courtroom today – he had one of his assistants argue the case. Is this further proof that Kline is just showboating or what?
From what was posted, I took it that Judge Yost signed the complaint, making him an interested party. If, instead, Judge Yost merely signed an order, then no problem, obviously. If I misunderstood what I read, OK, and my earlier post is moot.
Sal
I take it you are new here.
I used up all my drawn out arguements on abortion a long time ago. It is a topic that has been done again and again here. When I’ve said something well once, I’m not inclined to repeat myself.
By way of introduction? I was formerly “pro life” I was at the “Summer of Mercy”.
Long story short? Most of the posters here who are anti choice I have seen post in other ways showing that they are DEFINITELY not pro life. This was also my real life experience.
Finally? I find most “pro life” people to be rather dull. They are too blinded by ……whatever…to realize that they are being used as pawns by people who have no intention of doing anything but using the issue as a political football.
Kline would be a good example of that……
If Eric Yost is in the Civil Department of the 18th Judicial District Court, why is he getting involved in alleged criminal issues? VT, your take on this?
If the anti-abortion group would only spend a tenth of their money and time on preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing the number of abortions performed, then maybe God would be proud of them.
……I just heard on KAKE news that Phill Kline was not even in the courtroom today – he had one of his assistants argue the case. Is this further proof that Kline is just showboating or what?…..
its all about finding the truth!
Kline is NOT the lead prosecutor on this case against Tiller. the lead prosecutor has to show up not Kline.
also…
if a maternaty ward has live births from minors and does not report this to a law agengy – then that entity should be prosecuted, yes.
Aren’t all live births reported to the state in vital statistic reports. I assume those are available to law enforcement.
Judge Yost may have been considered a “friendly” judge, or, he could just have been the only one around when the case was filed. Remember, under Court unification, any District Court Judge can “hear” a case, whether or not it is within the department to which the judge is assigned.
… preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing the number of abortions performed…
catching the rapists would definately be a step in the right direction eh?
how about our good man Mr Tiller tell our buddy Paul Morrison about these rapes and lets show up Mr. Kline – lets show him how a REAL stop the rapists campain is really done.
…..Aren’t all live births reported to the state in vital statistic reports. I assume those are available to law enforcement. …
yes they are – good statement!but I assume your point is that law agencies are not pursuing any identified criminal activity that is reported?
I’d venture to guess that Yost was approached because of his openly hostile stance against Roe v. Wade. In that case, he is biased and should not be part of the case. Research Yost’s past, it’s quite clear.
angel, you blatantly missed my point. My point was that Kline has used the reasoning that he is “investigating child abuse” to subpeona these abortion records. I merely mean to say that I find this suspect because I feel that if he were REALLY looking to investigate child abuse, he would not only subpeona abortion records from ALL abortion clinic, not just Tiller and Planned Parenthood of JoCo, but that he would also subpeona ALL live birth records for underage girls from hospitals, clinics etc… Not once did I say live birth records from an abortion clinic – that you could construe that from my post shows that you either weren’t reading, or you really didn’t get it… YES, I feel this is an abuse of power – and as was stated numerous times yesterday, I will not directly quote, but you can look at the Kline blog from yesterday if you would like a direct quote, it was posted there about 20 times – the Attorney General does not have jursidiction unless granted by the governor (which he did not have) or invited by the District Attorney (which he was not) and that was therefore the grounds for the dismissal of charges, and this is all a publicity ploy on the part of Kline, because he HAD to have known this, since he filed an answering response within 15 MINUTES of the dismissal of charges, which says to me that he was anticipating that, which means he KNEW he was WRONG!
Yost, Clark, Kline… whoever…anything that comes down to a vote has only 2 sides – for or against.
if your pro-choice then…oooh your a baby killer blah blah blah.
if your pro-life then… oooh your a right wing conserva-nazi blah blah blah.
the problem is… the case is not about abortion.
If you want an abortion then go get one (as permitted by law)
If you want to take money from a bank then do it (as long as it is from your own account – during business hours)
DO WHAT EVER THE HECK YOU WANT TO DO. DO IT OFTEN. DO IT FREELY. DO IT WITH OUT ABANDON.
BUT DO IT LEAGALLY.
…blatently? didn’t get it?…
nope i got it. but i have also researched for my self exactly what the obligations of the attorney general are.I said obligations – not powers.
I read the media and the blogs – i know what is said, but I prefer to find the truth. one thing about law… it is always on record and available to the public – for those that choose find it. those who choose not – i guess have no other option than to believe what other people say.
what a shame.
for all the complaints about wasting time and money etc…
lets put Kline out of our misery…
Tiller is innocent – done no wrong and we all know it.
Kline is a boof, has no experience, and no knowledge of the law – and we all know it.
so if the media is correct…
Then let Kline have is day in court.
Tiller will be exhonorated.
Kline will be go down in flames.
and it will finally all be over.
unless all this drama gives us something to do.
If Kline is not the prosecutor in this case, then why did HE file the charges? If Kline appointed a special prosecutor then was he not the one presenting the case? It was a Steve (?) Maxwell that was an assistant to Kline that argued the case to Judge Clark.
Why all the shenanigans by Kline Angel? Could be that your dog in this fight is not as good as you thought?
I suppose some of those liberal European Countries that prohibit later term abortions are just to the political right of the Democratic Party in the U.S. :D
Roll in it now Demos. One day there will be conclusive proof a fetus is a human being and has its own right to life.
I will say a prayer and put some flowers at the site of the Wichita Holocaust Memorial when that time comes.
btw, I forgot to add, Jimmy Carter, the liberals idol is against abortion.
while you do that JM, you might want to say a prayer for those children born to minor girls who were actually raped. But your anti-abortion group is not concerned about the living – huh?
I always pray for victims Suza. I cannot of course know all of them personally.
And I don’t belong to any anti-abortion group. I know for a medical fact that fetuses after a certain age are totally representative of their species. All those foals, puppies, kitties and other species I helped retrieve through operative birthing tells me that human fetus are no different. That is, they are alive, viable and to kill a human fetus to me is murder.
I’m sorry if I have compassion for those who can’t defend their rights and yes I do recognize the special cases where the fetus is not viable or the mother’s life is in danger, etc.
Suza, you really need to stop and think and not accuse others of what they do or do not do.
ah JM………..a fetus does not have rights. A fetus is not a viable, living organism outside of the womb.
See this is the excitement I miss from working the night shift and sleeping all day. DARN IT.
All I can say is BWAHAHAHAHA- I knew it. Kline has no basis for anything. And women’s rights and freedom reigns.
“ah JM………..a fetus does not have rights. A fetus is not a viable, living organism outside of the womb.”Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | December 27, 2006 at 06:42 PM
Yeah Blaidd I have heard that argument before.
How long can you live without air, underwater or in a vacuum?
Just because an organism is out of its element doesn’t mean it isn’t viable.
PM: The case was decided on jurisdictional grounds not on the merits. It hardly means there wasn’t any substance to the criminal charges. The fact remains a judge found there was probable cause to file the charges. But feel free to continue to go off half cocked, it is amusing.
I guess the SCOTUS doesn’t agree with you considering the Roe v. Wade ruling many years ago.
Deal with it JM.
“The fact remains a judge found there was probable cause to file the charges.”
For god’s sake. it was Eric Yost who found “probable cause”. go figure!
The SCOTUS only deals with the law and not the science or the morality of it.
It is apparently very easy to make a legal judgment that excludes logical science.
This is why I don’t understand people like Tiller.
He has to exterminate life or it will grow into a human being.
Get it? He is exterminating human life.
“ah JM………..a fetus does not have rights. A fetus is not a viable, living organism outside of the womb”
Actually, the Kansas Supreme Court has created a little condrum for themselves on this point. They have ruled that a “viable” fetus is a person for purposes of a wrongful death action. Thus, making a viable fetus a person for some purposes and not a person for others.
And Clark dismissed on jurisdictional grounds. Comparing judges and alleging bias won’t get you far in this debate.
I am unsure if you are an attorney John Sinovic, but if not perhaps you have an opinion on the following.
Since about half of the abortions are from out of state, what would be the ruling on a person who flees a state for the purposes of obtaining a surgery that is illegal in their own state?
I recall reading that in the Netherlands, they used to stop people at the border checking to see if they were still pregnant. Getting an abortion in another country such as Spain was in the opinion of the Dutch Court a violation of the law and could be prosecuted. To what degree I do not know.
John-boy………cite the Kansas SP case you are referring to please.Do you have proof that Judge Clark has a bias? Yost’s proof of bias is his voting record in the Stae House and Senate.
I can’t see how it would be illegal to cross a state line to have an abortion. The late term abortions Tiller performs are constitutionally protected procedures if the patients fits the definition of the exception.
The question is whether Tiller was discharging his obligation to certify the patient’s for the exception in reasonable manner. I can’t see how a patient could be held criminally liable unless it could be proved they lied about symptoms or diagnosis to mislead the doctor. That I think would be difficult if not impossible to prove unless they used the medical records of someone else or something along those lines to prove a life threatening condition.
JM, just stop trying to control women and their decisions about their bodies. If you don’t want an abortion, don’t get one. Tiller is exterminating UNWANTED human life.
John, thanks for showing exactly why these fetal personhood laws are all about the abortion laws and not about common sense. IF you gave a crap about the women who lost their babies in these situations, you’d stop trying to use it against the abortion debate.
To me, it’s about choice. A woman should have equally the choice to keep her child as much as not. So therefore I believe if you hurt a pregnant woman in the commission of a crime, the time should be double. That way, there are no ‘fetal personhood’ laws to deal with. The laws should reflect that choice. Women who are pregnant are more likely to be victims of crimes than at any other time during their lives. Another reason why some women might want an abortion= their situation may not be safe.
p mom……they don’t understand CHOICE. All they understand is their warped view of Christianity.
Political Mom,
I agree women have a right to control their own bodies. I draw the line at them controlling someone elses, the baby.
I have had men coming to me, distraught beyond comprehension on why their wife/girlfriend is getting an abortion and were told they have no say in it.
Evidently you must have fell asleep in biology when they discussed when life is formed after fertilization.
I don’t recall anywhere in literature that I’ve studied that was scientifically based that the definition of life is only applied to those outside of a womb.
JM you do realize that the woman has to actually carry the baby, and that it affects every cell of her body?
Or don’t you get that.
When you can grow a baby in a jar, then we’ll talk.
Shelton v. DeWitte, 271 Kan. 831, 26 P.3d 650.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/opinion/16323810.htm
“Half the counts allege that George Tiller illegally performed late-term abortions by accepting diagnoses that the pregnancies placed patients’ mental health at risk.
The Supreme Court dealt with that very issue in its February ruling.
“The attorney general has said he disagrees with requiring an exception to preserve the pregnant woman’s mental health,” the court said. “Until the United State Supreme Court or the federal Constitution says otherwise, however, the mental health of the pregnant woman remains a consideration necessary to ensure the constitutionality of the Kansas criminal abortion statute.”
Kline seems to have recklessly ignored that caveat.
His remaining 15 counts involve technical complaints that should be handled administratively, not in criminal court.”
Political Mom,
Not sure what to think about that first statement…
…or the third statement.
As far as me talking or writing are you aware that it is my Constitutional Right?
Or would you rather stifle all that all that don’t agree with you?
I could say the same, but I know better and I thought you would know better too.
PM The law can’t have it both ways. Either a viable fetus is a person for situations or it isn’t. I really don’t care what the Kansas Supreme Court decides as long as it is consistent.
His remaining 15 counts involve technical complaints that should be handled administratively, not in criminal court.”_________________________________
And you know this how? Because Dan Monnat said so?
I think part of the legal inquiry by Kline was that there was no reporting of possible rape to minors. I don’t know what the legal definition of a rape for a minor consists of, but I would think 10-14 year old would definetely qualify.
Why were these not reported in accordance to the law by Tiller?
I love days like today. The anti-choice crowd is having a major MELTDOWN!
JM, there were no charges against reporting the pregnancy to authorities, the charges stem from not reporting the conditions for the pregnancy to the KDHE, which has nothing to do with prosecuting statutory rape cases.
So there was no basis for failure to report a CRIME on Tiller, not even one charge of that. This would be a charge like failure to report a case of TB.
And John, just because you want to use the fetal personhood laws for your agenda, doesn’t mean the majority of us can’t figure out the difference. Ask the family of Chelsea Brooks how they feel about your using the laws their pushing for.
okay john-boy, I read Shelton v. DeWitte, 271 Kan. 831, 26 P.3d 650. I’m not lawyer, but what the hell does that have to do with Kline’s fishing expedition?
IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF SEDGWICK COUNTY, KANSASState of Kansas, Plaintiff, v. GEORGE R> TILLER Defendant.CASE NO. 06CR2961
COUNT TWO:Failure to Repport Justification for Late Term Abortion
That on or about and after July 22, 2003, in Sedgwick County, State of
Kansas, GEORGE R. TILLER did, then and there, contrary to the statutes
of the State of Kansas, unlawfully, after performing or inducing or
causing to be performed or induced an abortion, to wit: file#30, patient
ID #………..(deleted for privacy), state record #…….(deleted for
privacy), on a viable fetus having a gestational age of 22 or more weeks
to wit: 29 weeks of age, did report that the fetus was not viable and
therefore did not report the actual determination of fetus viability,
nor the reasons for such determinations, nor the basis for the
determination that the abortion was necessary to preserve the life of
the pregnant woman or that a continuation of the pregnancy would cause a
substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of
the pregnant woman in writing to the medical care facility in which the
abortion was performed for inclusion in the report of the medical care
facility to the secretary of health and environment under K.S.A. 65-445
and amendmetns thereto, in violation of K.S.A. 65-6703.
Sorry about any errors, I’m not a very good transcriptionist. :)
Anyway, there appears to be a violation of the law if the cases were not reported as required.
This entry was only the second of the many charges.
What’s your point JM, Judge threw this crap out not once, but TWICE! DA Foulston states this nonsense will not happen in her jurisdiction. it won’t.
“What’s your point JM, Judge threw this crap out not once, but TWICE! DA Foulston states this nonsense will not happen in her jurisdiction. it won’t.” Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | December 27, 2006 at 08:11 PM
Calm down Blaidd…
It was a response to Political Mom and to assure her I have read the documents.
DA Foulston, well there will be a time… :)
I am calm JM, it is you and your anti-choice crowd that is ahving the meltdown today. Foulston will do her job, worry not.
Hey anti choicers?
I’m a little down on my luck lately.
Can I come over to your house and stay there for oh say 16-18 years or so?
“Hey anti choicers?I’m a little down on my luck lately. Can I come over to your house and stay there for oh say 16-18 years or so?” Posted by: L R | December 27, 2006 at 08:41 PM
What does being down on your luck have to do with being anti-choice?
I have some relatives in Oklahoma that would be glad to let you stay in the bunkhouse as long as you toil along with the rest of the workgroup: You know building/repairing fences/digging post holes/some one-waying/feeding and tending cattle.
JM, read the charges, many of the women were well over the age of 18, so how could it be a failure to report a CRIME.
Really JM?
Do they take pregnant mothers? Post partum, is the baby expected to toil?
This society will never be truly pro life until it takes basic care of ALL its members. That does NOT include putting them in “workgroups”.
Political Mom,
I have read the charges. I know I won’t change anyone’s mind. However, since the blog is here I will put forth my thoughts on the matter.
I have the feeling if I had the absolute truth on anything, you would say something to the contrary just because you stand on the otherside of some invisible Political line.
And J R, take a hike. You are beyond having any sort of reasonable conversation. All you want to do is taunt, call names and generally be disruptive.
I will just ignore your posts like I do others here in the blog. It is relatively easy to do. Ignore mine if you wish, I do not care one way or the other.
I am just amazed at Kline’s tactics. He is tenacious I’ll give him that. I hope that Morrison tkes care of this and that we don’t have to keep dealing with his crap. Even those of you against abortion must see through this smoke screen. If child rapists is what Kline is after he must go after the hospitals because babies are born there. Could someone at least see thaty point?
And JM THINKS he can carry on a “resonable converstaion”.
ROFLMAO
JM I got a better idea.
YOU take a hike. Take your sanctimony with you. Probably you’ll need a wagon for that.
Abortion is going to remain legal. DEAL with it. Give Kline a call and clue him in too.
“Could someone at least see thaty point?” Posted by: Brenda Shull | December 27, 2006 at 09:02 PM
My guess is that the Hospitals are not in violation of reporting procedures.
If you know how to get that information I would be glad to read about it.
I doubt if it accessible to the public at least not in its raw form, perhaps statistically.
Ok JM if I’m wrong, why would a 22 year old need to be reported to the state for statutory rape?
Can you explain that to me?
And JM THINKS he can carry on a “resonable converstaion”. ROFLMAOPosted by: Blaidd Drwg | December 27, 2006 at 09:07 PM
Besides having my own view. If I have written something unreasonable, point it out or better,let us discuss it.
“Ok JM if I’m wrong, why would a 22 year old need to be reported to the state for statutory rape?Can you explain that to me?”
I don’t know what specifically you are referring to the legal document I have read, let me peruse it and see what it says.
I doubt it says anything about statutory rape. I’m somewhat appalled that you don’t think I don’t know what that means. brb :)
JM, your “view” is one contrary to the ruling of the SCOTUS, You are entitled to your dissenting view, but that doesn’t make your view correct.
Abortion is legal, deal with it. Kline is on fishing expedition, he got his ass kicked twice. Deal with it.
Here is the statute that requires mandatory reporting of suspected child abuse. It is the same statute that I must adhere to as well.
Minors–Kansas Code for Care of Children; Matters Prior to Filing Petition–Mandatory Abuse Reporting Statute
Persons listed in K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 38-1522 are required to notify the department of social and rehabilitation services (S.R.S.), or a law enforcement agency if S.R.S. is closed, if they have reason to suspect that a child has been sexually abused regardless whether the alleged perpetrator resides in the child’s home. A mandated reporter who refuses to notify S.R.S. because of a promise extracted by the victim or the victim’s family violates the law and subjects himself or herself to criminal prosecution. Cited herein: K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 38-1502; K.S.A. 38-1521; K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 38-1522; 38-1523; K.S.A. 65-5810; 65-5812.
Now, nowhere in there does it say that they must notify the KDHE. The KDHE failure to report must be based on something else.
And note, no charges have been filed against Tiller for violation of this statute above.
Political Mom,
I could only find one instance in the legal document Kline filed. It is as follows (excerpt):
In file #37, patient ID….., the defendant wrongfully relied on a diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode, to determine that a continuation of the pregnancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman when such diagnosis does not establish that a continuation of the pregancy will cause a substantial and irreversible impairment of major bodily function of the pregnant woman, in violation of KSA 65-6703.
Evidently, there is in the Attorney General Office’s view that a single episode of Depression Disorder is not described as a reason under Kansas Law for a physician to interpret such as causing a major bodily function to cause irreversible or substantial impairment.
At least that’s how I read it.
Political Mom,
The only two K.S.A I have referenced thus far are:K.S.A. 65-445K.S.A. 65-6703
I didn’t see that on your list.
This is the statute that Kline is saying Tiller allegedly did not report…and it has nothing to do with child abuse.
http://www.hodesnauser.com/65-6703.htm
So none of these cases have anything to do with the age of the person, or any abuse.
But JM, you were earlier saying that the age of the person made reporting mandatory, and I’m saying it had nothing to do with that.
SCOTUS has already ruled that a mental health exception is a valid reason for a late-term abortion. How would it cause permanent harm to a person? Well if they kill themselves, I’m sure that’s permanent harm.
Political Mom,
The 65-6703 has to do with Public Health and Abortion.
The twenty two year old’s case from the legal document referenced this as a violation.
I’m somewhat confused why you hanging on to the child abuse with the twenty two year old?
Is there something I’m not aware of involving this matter of the twenty two year old?
No, you are changing your story now.
You said way back here :
“I think part of the legal inquiry by Kline was that there was no reporting of possible rape to minors. I don’t know what the legal definition of a rape for a minor consists of, but I would think 10-14 year old would definetely qualify.
Why were these not reported in accordance to the law by Tiller?
Posted by: JM | December 27, 2006 at 07:37 PM ”
You were wrong, and now you are trying to change your story. I showed you none of the reporting had to do with the ages.
“But JM, you were earlier saying that the age of the person made reporting mandatory, and I’m saying it had nothing to do with that.”
Yes, Political Mom, but with the Case#2 that I posted. And there are others, but far too lengthy to post here where minors where involved.
I see what you are saying about the SCOTUS decision on depression. I’m wondering since the Kansas Statute is still on the books if it was written before or after the the SCOTUS decision?
I haven’t read the SCOTUS decision , so would be in the dark on “exactly” it says or legally implies in regards to states making their own laws on the matter.
I betcha McKinney doesnt find the same things that Kline did… Betcha he doesnt find anything!
Political Mom,
In case#30, I transcribed charge #2 which refers to the failure to report. That happened to be tied to charge #1 which I did not transcribe here which also involves a 14 year old female in case#30 which refers to an unlawful abortion.
Both charges refer to the same 14 year old female.
JM surely you can see that your argument is dead. Think REALLY hard about why there is no charges against Tiller for violation of statute K.S.A. 1992 Supp. 38-1522, the mandatory reporting of suspected abuse.
I know you can get this. Put your mind to it.
Ok maybe I’ll just help you out. MAYBE Tiller actually DID report and followed the law? Hmm?
Let us not forget to rub this mess into the faces of every GOP candidate who mutters complaints about activist judges. Kline, Yost, Brownback, all are guilty of judicial manipulation and activism.They should be imprisoned, beaten, and forced to recite the Koran.
BANGS HEAD AGAINST THE DESK.
JM, you’re a lost cause. NONE NONE NONE OF THE FAILURES TO REPORT REFER TO SEX CRIMES OR ABUSE OR AGE. THEY REFER TO REPORTING THE REASONS FOR THE ABORTION TO THE KDHE.
If that is true Political Mom about Tiller reporting. All he has to do is go before the court and wave the papers around stating that he did indeed file the proper papers.
Can you prove Tiller did this?
Correct Political Mom.
Failure to report or performing illegal abortions are crimes if not in compliance according to Kansas Statutes. That is what the Attorney Generals’s Office filed.
Tiller has nothing to prove. He should remain silent. Pushing misdemeanor charges only stands to sensationalize for the benefit of pro-lifers to get national attention.
You just don’t get it. Jesus. He doesn’t have to prove in court that he filed the correct papers regarding reporting abuse, because he was NEVER CHARGED WITH THAT.
nitey nite Political Mom,I enjoyed discussing this with you.Time for me to get clean and showered. :)
Did you finally get it?
Kline’s a Putz.
Too bad I got into this too late but here’s some info we have on ol’ McKinney:
http://www.maggotpunks.com/antis/files/012.htm
Sunny,”If the anti-abortion group would only spend a tenth of their money and time on preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing the number of abortions performed, then maybe God would be proud of them.”
That of course would be the rational thing to do. Unfortunately, at least among the radical anti’s who control the movement, it seems to be more about the fact that abortions are permitted than that they’re performed.Despite propaganda to the contrary, the actual welfare of women and children doesn’t enter in to their religious equation. From what many of them have said, it’s the legality of abortion that God (read them) disapproves of.None seem the least concerned about the return of the back-alley abortionists that wreaked death and destruction on women for over a century prior to R.v.W. As one who identified himself only as “Brother Truth” said recently in answer to that question, “If whores suffer at the hands of butchers because of our efforts, then God’s judgement has been rendered.”
not many rape victims want to keep their baby (if they got pregnant from the rape)
not many parents of minors want to have their little girls keep their baby when caused by rape
why should kline only look for rape victims at hospitals maternity wards? when rape victims hardly ever go the distance?
the evidence is at the abortion clinics.
I am against abortion but how about this, if a woman is raped and wants an abortion, she must file criminal charges against her attacker?
it appears that JM also reads the actual documents on this case?
good job if he does. because he also now knows that this is not about abortion.
most of you are just using this case as an occasion to hate each other.
Most “women”, “” are for the fact that they are usually teens and early twenties and still “girls” in my opinion, when they think they may be pregnant go to their personal physician or a clinic to validate the pregnancy. Why are these records not being sought instead of the records from Tiller? Shouldn’t they be held responsible for notifying the authorities of underage sex, rape, etc.?
Actually, Angel, my basis for my arguement that Kline was not within his rights to file charges WAS the Kansas statutes regarding the responsibilities and POWERS of the Attorney General’s office – I don’t mindlessly regurgitate other people’s opinions – I merely felt that since it was posted NUMEROUS times on another blog which I am sure a large majority of the people posting on here read, that it was not necessary for me to post it personally here – I am fully capable of researching facts before I post them, and most often do… BUT, if you would like for me to back up my points with quotes, I certainly can, just let me know…
Okay, all of you pro lifers who want all of this aired out. Let’s get your medical records. Post them up right here! To me, this is not so much about choice, but about the right to have private medical records. I’ve said it before, if you got the clap in college, who do you want to know about that?Come on! Give it up! Let me see those medical records. Even if you’ve done nothing wrong, I want to see your medical records. Do you want me to go to your doctor and be able to just look and make sure that you didn’t get that nasty case of the clap before you were 16? How did you get it? Were you molested or were you just fooling around with another adventurous 15 year old? Do I have the right to know that?
Privacy, Who are you trying to fool. First the Kansas Supreme Court compelled the release of the records with all identifying information redacted. Thus, while the records were produced none of the patients could be identified. Second, your “private” medical records are always subject to subpoena. The Kansas Board of Healing Arts subpoenas records all the time and the records are provided in a redacted manner.Phill should be disbarred if it is proven he was involved, or looked the other way, when the records were leaked to O’Reilly. But that is really irelevant to the fact he obtained them legally and other obtain medical records legally on daily basis.
if you want to quote the law, statutes, and final rulings – then that is great – make sure you shepardize the rulings though.And correctly apply the rulings in context.
bring it on. I would much rather discus legal documents than personal feelings – or debate choices.
I don’t care about Kline – just the law.
the law is the only common point that citizens have.
if there is now law on your subject, then you can do/choose as you please.
if there is a law… you must abide by the law.
take the names Kline and Tiller out of the case.
take the red herrings out of the case – (it is not about abortion)
no names – no red herrings just the law
good point sinovic,
if I could get my hands on the released med records givin the the AG – it would not embarass any one. there are no names, adresses or ph#s.
however. re: O’Reilly… he has his own investigators. I would suspect that if any leaking took place – it was from O’Rielly to Kline. Not from Kline to O’Rielly…
that guy may be an arrogant pompass axx but think he might actually know more about Tiller and friends than Kline.
John,So, go get your records. You can leave your name out if you want. Even if you haven’t done anything wrong, I just want to make sure you haven’t done anything or been wronged in some way. Go get them. I want to see your records. It’s for your protection, really. I just want to make sure your doctor is on the up and up. You want everything aired out, go get them and show them to me. Or did you not file any charges against anyone and don’t want me to be snooping in your records? Come on, this is for your own good. Think of who I can protect by looking at everyone’s records, just in case.
another point – Tillers attys filed to the court to have the case made public…( thats why everyone knows the details of what is going on)
^^YOU can protect no one. The DA, the AG, the KSBOHA can protect many. That is why they are given subpoena power.
You need to calm down a bit, you are way too emotional about this.
NO SOL. Rape is the most underreported crime of all. Many women would rather die than go through a court hearing and face their attacker. They simply are too afraid or too ashamed, then to put the stigma on top of it? HELL NO.
Just look at how the women in the media who have been at the center of big rape cases have been treated. And you wonder why women don’t want to come forward.
here is why abortion clinics are investigated.
a repete sex offender is finally caught – the investigation shows that he is linked to several old cases where the victim had an abortion (a legal one – they chose to do something, and their choice was with-in the law)
now this raped minor was one of the sex offenders first crimes.
he went on and raped others.
the clinic never reported the rape.descriptions of the rapist were never given, localities, etc.
there was a chance… that the guy could have been caught long before the other women were raped.
the raped minor had a legal choice to not contact the police.
the parent of the minor also had a legal choice to not contact the police.
the medical profession DOES NOT have a legal choice to not contact the police.
On who’s behalf is Kline using his subpoena power? Where is the little girl who came to him because noone else would help her? Kline is doing this for his own agenda. He and his OR cronies don’t like that women can and do choose.So go get those records John. I just want to make sure you were never a victim. I want to see your medical records for the good of everyone.
See Angel, this is what sucks about you. You leave out a whole hell of a lot when it conveniences your side. Like the fact that the man also fathered two other children with his other daughter underage, that were born and STILL not reported.
SO that’s THREE chances to catch the guy, but only one of them was Tiller’s.
But you just said earlier that no molestations go to clinics and hospitals so don’t look there, look only at the abortion clinics.
I’d also point out that there are MANY mandatory reporters, from school officials to nurses to ambulance drivers, police and fire. This is a witchhunt against ONE doctor out of thousands in this state. And you know it, but you don’t care.
I agree – privacy matters – it certanly does.
but privacy is secondary to the law.
when there is a Suspicion of a crime – a subpoena can be obtained.
with probable cause – your house can be entered. you can even be arrested.
you have to go to a judge and show them the support for your Suspicion – the judge has to be convinced – and then you are granted your subpoena or search warrent.
so go get your support for your Suspicion of John or whom ever else you are pissed at – take it to the police, if they are convined, they can take it to a judge. if the judge is convinced … then John… I guess we are going to find out about your medical history…sorry John.
if you don’t have convincing Suspicion about John…
then leave him alone – he has the same rights of privacy as you do.
You really aren’t helping these girls who are victims of crimes by pushing for them to be investigated. You’re only pushing them into more isolation and more despair, because no girl is going to go to ANY doctor knowing she’s going to get investigated…she might as well just walk into a police station, but they don’t because they’re afraid.
We need to reach out and make a safe haven for these kids. And no, just because a girl gets pregnant at a young age, does not mean there was criminal sex involved. It is absurd that all these boys are being considered rapists, and all these girls are considered victims.
^^^ I can’t disagree with you that Kline’s pursuit of abortion clinics is over the top and personal. Most likely at the expense of other more pressing issues the AG should be dealing with. But that doesn’t change the fact that abortion providers are not above the law. They are given broad discretion to determine whether their patients fit within the exception to the ban on late term abortions. It is not unreasonable for the state to make an inquiry from time to time to determine whether the provider is exercising his discretion in a responsible manner.Clearly, Don the Dingo McKinney is not the proper person to represent the state’s interest in protecting the rule of law in this circumstance. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t an attorney in Sedgwick County who could. There are many attorneys in Wichita whose inquiry would be done with fidelity to the rule of law and above reproach. I for one would like to see one of those attorneys appointed to review the material gathered by the AGs office and make a determination whether the charges are warranted.
from political mom……but you don’t care.
actually I do care.I don’t know any minor that has had a live birth that did’nt have the father prosecuted or an investigation to find a rapist.
if i did – I do care enough to do something about it.
I you know of a live birth to a minor – and did not have the father prosecuted or initiate an investigation to find a rapist….
then it sounds like YOU don’t care.
If you did care you would do something about it.
If you know of “school officials to nurses to ambulance drivers, police and fire”(men) that not reporting crimes – then they should be prosecuted. yes.
and shame on you for knowing that these offenses took place and chose to do nothing about it.
So, there is something in the medical records that says who a rape suspect is? I’m pregnant and have gone to the doctor several times and my doctor never asked me who the father is. I was never asked if I was raped or not. I had a miscarriage and there was no genetic testing done on the fetus to prove that my husband fathered the child and not some rapist. I was not married when I had my first son at 19 and nobody made me put the father’s name on the birth certificate even though I know quite well who he is. This was at a hospital. Phill Kline is not concerned with me though. My doctor wasn’t Tiller. Yes women get pregnant from rape, yes women get pregnant just because they made a stupid choice with their lives. Either way, it is a choice that women make. Life sucks and Phill Kline isn’t going to change that.
I would report if I suspected a crime. I don’t suspect a 14 or 15 year old of being a victim of a crime merely because she is pregnant nor because of her decision to keep or abort the baby.
14 or 15 yr old having sex with someone 16 or older IS a crime.
‘course, you think you write the laws in Kansas, doncha’ Pee?
Political Mom has the best point. I know of several girls from when I was in school and now who were having sex,getting knocked up and there was no crime. Except maybe being stupid. But it looks like about 95% of the population has sex without being married. I’m sure many of them are pretty young. I’m sure they may regret thier actions later in life, but we can’t make that choice for them.
Privacy: I personally think the “identify rapists” was a pretext at least in part. But if a pregnant girl is below the age of consent, in the laws eyes there can be no consensual sex and the act that impregnated her was rape.
Political Mom: While you may not suspect a 14 or 15 year old of being a victim of rape merely because she’s pregnant the law does. Below the age of consent all sex is rape. You can argue whether it should be, but that is an argument to take with your husband the legislator. The Kansas legislature defines rape and the age of consent not the AG, or anyone else.
John,Her husband isn’t a legislator. He’s a prison guard.
from sinovic….
…see one of those attorneys appointed to review the material gathered by the AGs office and make a determination whether the charges are warranted.
been there – done that – two judgesremember that the case wasnt dismissed because of its merrits – it was dismissed on a filing technicality.
if kline chooses to appeal – I believe the DA and the judge that dismissed the case will get called on the carpet…
the limiitations clock is ticking – I think Kline will pursue the other options out there and not get bogged down in stall tactics.
your right the outcome of this case – especially if kline succeeds – will not affect abortion rights. not at all.
I’ll say it again – the case has nothing to do with the right to abortion.
If you made a “stupid decision” at the age of 19 – then 1. you were not underaged – 2. you have the right to go get an abortion. good for you – go do it. go have another one – nobody cares…
unless it is done illegally.If you choose to remedy a stupid 19 year old decision by choosing to do something illegal… then you should get busted.
So if the AG just suspects that your doctor failed to report that you were diagnosed with a sexually transmitted disease, then he can subpoena all records from your doctors office? All of this just if there is suspicion of wrongdoing?Don’t rape victims get STD’s too? Lets go get those records as well. This is not a crusade to protect the innocent, it’s a way to make the innocent look like the bad guy.
It will affect abortion rights, it’ll limit access to one of the only people in a long area that provides this service, this IMPORTANT LIFE SAVING SERVICE to women.
… innocent look like the bad guy…?
the patients are not on trial.their names are not available.
getting STDs is not a crime.there is no legal requirement to report STD cases to legal authorities.
I’m surprised that that reach did’t cause you to fall over.
I’m sure if a 12 year old shows up at an fp’s office with an STD most STD most fp’s and peds would make a report to SRS which would initiate an investigation and the collection of records. If the girl is older I would suspect most would not make a report without some other information provided by the girl. These are just educated assumptions though.
If the KSBOHA has reason to suspect the health care provider should be disciplined for some reason they have subpoena power.
Angel, my point in my post was not, oh I was 19 and made a dumb choice. My point was, I wasn’t married and nobody asked if I was the victim of a crime or not. If you get pregnant or get an STD, there is the potential that you were the victim of a sex crime. Nobody asked me if I was. Nobody asked a classmate of mine, who had two children by the time we graduated, if she was the victim of a crime. Kline, and a lot of other anti-choice nazis, don’t care just as long as the kid is born healthy. Then you look down on women who work three jobs to support that child as a trashy whore.
wow, what an unconscious statement of a legal point in the case…. this IMPORTANT LIFE SAVING SERVICE to women…
if the abortion doctor can not prove this “live saving” point.then the “late term” abortion is illegal.
this case will not change any current abortion rights. NONE.
It will only stop illegal activity.
Privacy,
well then things have changed… My wife is 5mths preg. we were greeted by a planning counselor.asked if i was the father.asked if this preg was planned.asked if we still wanted to procede.even informed us of the legal time frame for “other options” if we should choose to change our minds.
anti-choice nazis?
But Angel, the point at hand here ISN’T whether or not Tiller failed to report suspected child abuse, but rather whether or not he failed to properly report the reasons for performing a late – term abortion. Apples and Oranges. Kline has launched a personal vendetta whether we like it or not. If he were really looking for instances of child abuse – he should JUST request medical records from abortion clinics – SOMEBODY confirmed that girl’s pregnancy before she had an abortion – why isn’t he requesting those records? Why isn’t he requesting records for live births of children under age 16??? That’s what I want to know… if he was doing ALL of the above, rather than JUST going after abortion clinics, maybe I could be more supportive of his filing charges…
Oh, and for your reading pleasure, the statute you requested which is the grounds for the dismissal of these charges, and also the reason I feel Kline is abusing his power in office…. “75-702Chapter 75.–STATE DEPARTMENTS; PUBLIC OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES
Article 7.–ATTORNEY GENERAL
75-702. Duties in actions where state a party or interested; or when the constitutionality of a law is at issue. The attorney general shall appear for the state, and prosecute and defend all actions and proceedings, civil or criminal, *in the supreme court*, in which the state shall be interested or a party, and shall also, *when required by the governor or either branch of the legislature*, appear for the state and prosecute or defend, in any other court or before any officer, in any cause or matter, civil or criminal, in which this state may be a party or interested or when the constitutionality of any law of this state is at issue and when so directed shall seek final resolution of such issue in the supreme court of the state of Kansas.
75-704Chapter 75.–STATE DEPARTMENTS; PUBLIC OFFICERS AND EMPLOYEES
Article 7.–ATTORNEY GENERAL
75-704. Aid to county attorneys; opinions. The attorney general shall consult with and advise county attorneys, when requested by them, in all matters pertaining to their official duties. The attorney general shall also, when required, give his or her opinion in writing, without fee, upon all questions of law submitted to him or her by the legislature, or either branch thereof, or by the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, state board of education, or commissioner of insurance. ”
Now, maybe I am not reading it correctly, but to me, Statute KSA 75-702 says that he is to A) argue cases in the supreme court, or B) AT THE REQUEST of the governor or legislature he may argue cases in any other court… (I added that * for you myself to show which point I referenced) BTW, I got these statutes straight off of the attorney general’s website…
Why doesn’t Mr. Kline (no relation!) just clean out his desk and go home. He’d do less damage and couldn’t cost the taxpayers as much as this nonsense he’s trying to pull now.
Angel, I am six months pregnant and my doctor wasn’t interested in if I wanted other options. Good for your care provider for going over all of that with you.The law doesn’t say that if you are attorney general and have an axe to grind on some issue that you can do whatever you want.You want to protect kids from crime, stop spending money on a witch hunt and kick some over to the SRS and into education. Don’t tell a woman she can’t choose just because you don’t like that choice.
noone said you cant choose – just choose according to limits of the law
Nola Foulston has an obligation to the law and the citizens of Sedgwich County to file a complaint against attorney Phill Kline for frivious and false filings. Kline is costing time, money and resources of the people Foulston is suppose to represent.
She should file personal complaints against Kline and McKinney to the disciplinary board and against them personally in district court.
Foulson’s failure to file against Phill Kline and Don McKinney personally brings up the question of what does Nola Foulston stand for and should she remain in her position.
What is the average citizen suppose to do when their rights are violated by uncaring state employees if the district attorney won’t do what really needs to be done.
Many of the comments here involve personal “feelings” rather than what their government employees are suppose to know and do.
These are not legislators, they are employees. They don’t make the law but are responsible to know the law and uphold it.
Kline and McKinney shouldn’t be allowed to remain attorneys or at least be fined and sanctioned.
Kline is a discrace to this state and to his profession and for McKinney to join in this doesn’t say much about him either.
And Nola, do your job.
angel, actually it is the law that STDs are reported, and I”m thinking to the KDHE. probably for the same reasons they want abortions reported. And I have N E V E R had any kind of ‘planning counselor’ come into my room and ask me those kind of questions while pregnant.
yep your right – they do require reporting of STD to KDHE – so that they can monitor the scope and ramifications of of any disease not just STD. this is for health monitoring.
getting an STD is not a crime.but not complying with the law is.
again – if you were a person that truely cared – you would do something about the people you know are breaking the law.
as to questions while you were pregnant… I guess i’m sorry you had the doctor you had… maybe thats why you are so hell-bent on being pissed off at people so much.
….Kline is costing time, money and resources of the people Foulston is suppose to represent…
it would take less time and less money to just try the case and get it over with.
just get it to court and get it over with.
no one believes tiller is wrong.no one believes Kline is right.
so – get it to court – get is settled. tiller goes about his business and kline goes down in flames.
why waste time fighting it.we already know the out-come.
let it go to court – stop wasting time and money fighting it.
lets just get it over with.
any body afraid of letting the court clear tillers name?
any body afraid of letting the court crucify Kline?
its a slam dunk – let it go to court
I’m a bad guy because I know kids have sex and I’m not going to report it to police? What the hell is wrong with you? I’m far more interested in making sure that if kids are going to be having sex, that they do so so they don’t get pregnant or STD’s.It’s far more helpful than a police officer banging on their door wanting to know about their sexual behavior.
My doctor was just fine, thank you.
it is not about you or your kids
it is about entities that break the law.
not about opinionsnot about feelingsnot about privacynot about abortion
It is all about the law.
not changing the lawnot erasing the lawnot a new law.
those that break the laws currently on the books should be prosecuted.
that means you or methat means doctors, firemen, ambulance drivers, police officers, DAs, AGsthat means anyone – !
It’s about showing why these laws were put on the books, in order to further an agenda. I’m not going to be a part of it when they make no sense.
everyone has an agenda -even you.
lots of laws suck – don’t make sense.
but if you break them – you pay.
Kansas statute that expressly states that “if the testimony taken at an inquisition discloses probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed…the attorney general…may file such testimony, together with his complaint…and a warrant shall there upon be issued for the arrest of such persons…” KSA 22-3103.
Kansas case law and Supreme Court precedent that states that the Attorney General “is a constitutional officer, is the chief law enforcement officer of the state, and is one of the state’s prosecuting attorneys.” State v. Finch and State v. Rohleder.
I take it you’re one of those anti-woman anti-choicers angel.
yeah the laws only matter to you guys when it supports what you want to believe. I’m more of a realist than an idealist. Reality is that life isn’t black and white, and laws can’t accurately reflect that.
not anti-choice
just pro law
One wonders, angel, in light of the various statutes posted above, if there is conflict among them concerning the ability of the Attorney General to institute a criminal matter by filing (as in this case) misdemeanor charges?
Kline’s case has been dismissed.
He may enter an appeal to be heardand if accepted he may have the chance to have the ruling overturned.
I can’t wait until the legislatureagain discusses the “right” to be stopped for not wearing a seat belt along with giving ILLEGALS driver licenses. Let’s see, isn’t there something about aiding someone in an illegal act.
Oh well it’s the feel good times. How do you feel about it. What do you feel about it.
Responsibility must not feel all that good. Evidently the same goes for freedom.
I can’t wait to have only five percent of the world’s population be like the rest of the world.
Been there, seen that, don’t like it.
Vaughn,
I think that is an EXTREMELY good point. Maybe if these were felony charges we were talking about, it wouldn’t seem so much like Kline abusing his power – of course, they probably also wouldn’t have been dismissed… But apparently that is not grand-standing on his part, even if it feels that way to those of us who have to listen to it… Apparently only Nola Foulston grandstands when she files a complaint, UNDER THE LAW, and a judge finds in her favor, not that of Phill Kline…
why bother to even have misdemeanors…
if they are not worth itthen why dont you tell the legislature to get rid of the concept.
only bother with felony charges
case dismissed… by DA and one judge.
however…Two findings by two different District Court judges finding based on the evidence that probable cause exists to believe the crimes have been committed with the latest finding that of a Wichita criminal court judge who found probable cause to believe that Mr. Tiller committed the crimes. Of course, the charges are allegations and the defendant is presumed innocent
the clue here is more than one judge finding probable cause…
this is where foulson and clark got it wrong on the jurisdiction part.
2 judges? I only had read about Yost.
I think angel is talking about: Yost, here; and the original judge in Shawnee (?) county that started the whole thing, Ben.
I would note for the record that the case has yet to be heard on the merits, and will not be so heard unless refiled. The dismissal in Sedgwick County was on a procedural matter only, prior to jeapordy attaching, so there is no bar to refiling. I understand from media reports that Nola has invited the AG to provide her office with the information so they might review same, and decide on the appropriateness of filing a case.
richard anderson is the other i believe.
It is clearly obvious that “angel” is of the anti-choice cult. Could it be Don McKinney or Troy Newman or one of their allies? I find it highly LIKELY. They don’t care about the law, they only care about their fundamentalist world view. They are nothing but Taliban caliber terrorists.
I can’t wait until the “Roe v, Wade weekend” of January 19-22. I will be out there, in their Taliban faces. I do look forward to it. And the call themselves CHRISTIANS!
Don’t forget that Roe V Wade day is at the capitol building too.Would love to see you there in support, talking to our legislators.
Don’t forget that Roe V Wade day is at the capitol building too.Would love to see you there in support, talking to our legislators.
That is true P mom, I now remember that I will be at the Capitol that day anyway.
This is going to be FUN!
Thanks VT. I still wonder about an AG filing misdemeanor charges. Is that Kosher?
If Kline refuses to forward the files to the DA what will happen to the case after Kline leaves office?
In a related matter – do you think DA Kline will go after the JoCo clinic?
Ben, I cannot say on your question concerning the AG filing misdemeanor charges without some research, which, at present, I am not keen on doing given I’ve been researching for the brief most of the day. :)
On forwarding the information, I doubt Phill Kline will do so; Mr. Morrison might.
Finally, on the unrelated question, I could see it happening.
Abortion is something to celebrate? It’s always a tragedy, no matter what the circumstances.Abortion is like war, or the death penalty, maybe it’s necessary sometimes, but it’s certainly nothing to celebrate.How sad.Is Tiller going to do his usual marathon free abortion celebration day this year? Why don’t you all go have a big party at his place that day?
It tends to be the antis who bring their kids, give out free balloons and food at the abortion clinic.
It’s the prochoice side who’s clapping and cheering everytime a woman pulls into the parking lot.
Funny, I’ve never seen that the couple years I’ve escorted there. Once again you fundies have a reality problem.
The clapping and cheering is not so much for the abortion but for the fact that freedom is protected and the hyperhypocritical fundies do not get to legislate morality.
Were it the other way around? I am SURE you would have them clapping and cheering when a woman gives birth after being strapped to a gurney and forced to gestate. They’d celebrate a bit and then shoo the woman and her baby away to clear the gurney for the next “lucky” mother. Count on it.
Bad analogy, Jed. People Do celebrate when a baby is born, but there is nothing inappropriate about that. I’ve never seen or heard of a woman strapped to gurney and forced to give birth when she didn’t want to. And I doubt if that were the case that anyone would celebrate. I think I resent the way you and yours are so eager to make monsters out of those who sincerely believe that abortion is wrong.To have an abortion is one of the hardest decisions a woman may have to make in her life, it’s not something that she would feel joyous or happy about. To clap and cheer at her tragedy is so insensitve and tacky, but being a man, I’m sure the seriousness of her decision is lost on you. To you it’s nothing worse than getting a tooth pulled. Shame on you.
Doug, I’m not a “fundie” and I resent being stereotyped like that. Your prejudice and bigotry is coming through loud and clear. If you have never heard the prochoice side clapping and cheering the tragedy of abortion like it’s something glorious, then you haven’t been there very long.Believe me, your camp is just as capable of the outrageous behavior that you love to accuse the pro-life side of. I’ve seen it up close and personal.
Sorry, Jed. The previous post was meant for JR, not you.
My analogy is apt Mary. I am sorry if it makes you uncomfortable.
YOU do not want to outlaw abortion. But plenty do. And short of strapping a woman to a gurney and forcing her to term? I don’t see how they get that done.
And no Mary, I feel no shame. Save shame to be part of a society that does not value equally ALL life. That means food and shelter and medical care for that baby and mother and everyone else from birth forward.
Well Mary, since you are essentially accusing me of being one of those pro-choicers at the clinic who clap and cheer perhaps you can present some evidence for it? I know asking fundies for evidence of their claims always ends up in dodges, excuses or lies so I won’t be surprised by what you don’t present.
You fundies will bring children to stand out in 106 degree heat merely for political reasons. Children are nothing more than a tool for the antis to get their theocratic agenda pushed through.
http://www.maggotpunks.com/headlines/2002-08-14.htm
Mary you’re the one saying that we stand outside the clinic cheering when someone pulls in, and that is so far from the truth. You should come to Roe V Wade day, listen to some of the women talk about life before Roe. When I say ‘celebration’ I don’t mean it as we are clapping and cheering for abortions, no. We are celebrating the fact that women are no longer dying enmass for the help they are desperate for.
Sorry, Doug and PMom, my guess is that you have never met Mary C. I have, and you guys have her all wrong.
Mary C. may be guilty of some R-type thinking, but she is a very decent person who helps suffering people every day.
I am grateful that Mary is out there working, and I hope she is able to continue in her efforts.
Happy Holidays,
Did I say something bad about Mary?
PM, I’m speaking about a few years ago when Tiller did his annual free abortion thing all day in celebration of Roe vs Wade. There were a lot of ugly things said and done, which illustrates the insensitivity of those on BOTH sides.No, Doug, I have never taken part in the protests, I just lived next door to the clinic for awhile and my mom lived across the street for 20 yrs. I can tell you stories and there are crazies on BOTH sides….but the pro choicers tend to be more aggressive and mean when ever there is an “event” at the clinic. I also remember every morning, Dr McGuire, a long time pediatric doctor would protest quietly with his sign, “Abortion Kills Children”. This gentle, elderly man was threatened with bodily harm on more than one occasion by those on your side.Yes, I believe the “maggotpunks” have named themselves accurately, Doug.
And quite calling me a “fundie”, Doug. I’m probably more liberal than you on some issues.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Steven. I hope to see you and PM at the next meet up!
I will vote with Steven here – from what I have seen here Mary C also works to support the alternatives, not just trying to shut down the clinics. Don’t always agree with her but I think there is some common ground available.
Morrison says he will not retain McKinney:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/16342455.htm
What do we know for sure?1. Kline filed charges that Tiller did 15 illegal late term abortions in 2004.2. Kline alleges that Tiller failed to properly report the basis for the abortions (what does this mean exactly? Tiller’s documentation wasn’t done properly; or that Kline disagrees that the listed justification satisfied the law?).3. Foulston has requested to see the evidence of wrong doing that Kline claims to have. Thus far, Kline has not supplied this evidence. (If Kline is interested in fighting crime as he claims, wouldn’t he turn these documents over?).4. McKinney won’t disclose his wages, contract, etc.5. Morrison states that he has no faith in McKinney’s ability to to “independently” investigate the charges.
I don’t know about others, but the “knowns” in this case sure seem to point to “political posturing” a lot more than “crime fighting”, if you ask me.
I apologize PM, I can’t see where you were “dissing” anybody.
Mary it shows how little you know. Maggot Punks was what the antis named us. I’ve been assaulted by your peaceful protesters on at least four occasions and have the video and case filings to document it. I was at a few Roe v. Wade day protests (clearly you weren’t so you are just dreaming what you wish you saw) so you are accusing me of cheering and clapping. As expected you have no evidence of your claims and that makes you a liar in my book.
BTW, it’s Robert Hagen who walks around with that stupid sign unless there’s some other doddering old fool that has nothing better to do.
http://www.maggotpunks.com/2006/2006-09-23.htm
You sold your old house to Michael Dodds didn’t you? He’s one of those terrorists that advocate the murder of Dr. Tiller. That’s nice company you associate with.
Phillip Brownlee’s editorial today, outlines the issues thus far in this Kline/Tiller episode.
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/editorial/16338603.htm
Brownlee is speculating that one of Kline’s problems with Tiller’s practice is that he is using mental health diagnoses as justification for the late-term abortions. Kline has a history of being against this and as Phillip summarizes, the allowability of such justifications in Kansas for an abortion has been stipulated in statute. I am guessing that this justification has not been ruled on by the Kansas supreme court. Anyone know for sure on that?
Doug,
This latest allegation against Mary C. seems doubtful on its face. Personally, I have never heard from anyone before or after I sell/sold them a house. The seperation is ensured by real estate agents.
Isn’t there an old chinese saying (there should be, if there isn’t) that goes: “when happening upon a pair of people engaged in a spittle spraying rant against one another, it is difficult to tell which one is the ‘true’ idiot.” I think the preceding was Mary’s point.
Steven – agree. If I list my house and you (or agent) show up at my door with a check it’s yours. In fact, even if it were not listed show up with a big enough check …
Tiller once remarked how he was amazed that he had to go to court to argue that women had brains and they are a part of the body. Perhaps Kline still holds to the old Egyptian idea that the mind resides in the liver.
Careful there, Ben; if Steven shows up at the door with a big enough check and a deed that he has you and your wife sign, he could tell you to get out now. :)
***** FLASHBACK 1991 *****”Nola Foulston should recuse herself from any investigation concerning George Tiller, as the Tillers contributed to her election campaign”
FOULSTON FETUS RULING DRAWS PROTEST
Wichita Eagle, The (KS)September 13, 1991Author: Stan Finger, The Wichita Eagle
A local abortion protest group on Thursday called for Sedgwick County District Attorney Nola Foulston’s ouster unless she retracts a legal opinion stating an aborted fetus is not a dead body.
. . .”Nola Foulston should recuse herself from any investigation concerning George Tiller, as the Tillers contributed to her election campaign,” said Jennifer Hickerson, a spokeswoman for the Wichita Rescue Movement.
Foulston denied any conflict of interest.. . .
”The conflict is that it appears that this thing smacks of a scandal that George Tiller, who has paid campaign funds to Nola Foulston, seems to be getting a favorable opinion from the district attorney’s office,” Dodds said.
Hey Meadowlark, according to what I read TODAY, in the Wichita Eagle article regarding Morrison’s decision not to keep McKinney on as special prosecutor…
“Abortion opponents have repeatedly accused Foulston, a Democrat, of trying to protect Tiller.
Campaign finance records show that Foulston, who has not had a political opponent in the past several elections, has not accepted money from him or the abortion rights political action committee that worked to unseat Kline.”
Seems to me that the claims that Foulston accepted money from Tiller are nothing more than claims. Provide me some substantiated proof, BEYOND the words of an anti-abortion group, and maybe then I will be better able to believe that she is in Tiller’s pocket – but until then, I am going to go with the campaign finance records…
By the way, totally off the subject, but does anyone else find extremely amusing that White Supremacist Santiago up there keeps posting in Spanish? A true American White Supremacist would NEVER use any other language than American English…
Not that I agree, in fact I think he is a facist, but I was amused by that – (oh yeah, this is the same guy that told me my son would burn in hell because his father is hispanic and I am caucasian, and then informed me that he is “a proud white man of Cuban heritage”… oh but all of his grandparents came to Cuba from Spain, so that apparently makes him white… )
Wendy – KsMeadowlard doesn’t need facts. He just repeats it enough that he can then quote himself and that “makes it true”.
Ben – LOL… Funny how that seems to be true for so many of the extremists, left and right :)
Steven Davis, I do not know; but as the U.S. Supreme Court has in the past ruled that there must be a mental health exception for a statute on abortion restrictions to be constitutional, it really doesn’t matter (for now) whether the Kansas Supreme Court has specifically addressed the issue.
U.S. Representative Kennedy (D – Rhode Island) is proposing legislation to make mental health treatment payment via insurance on par with other health care. The representative said to the effect that the legislation tacitly assumes “the brain is an organ of the body.” This same representative has been diagnosed with bipoar disorder – which I didn’t know until I heard this story on NPR.
Thanks, Vaughn. I just assumed that Kline was trying to appeal the case upward in Kansas.
KSMeadowlark is an expert on campaign finance records, so if there is something on Nola to be found, I bet he finds it.
KSM does have decided views on abortion, but to say he makes stuff up, is far from being fair IMHO.
SD, any appeal Mr. Kline might try to perfect at this point would be on the ruling by Judge Clark to dismiss the charges on the basis of lack of authority. The issue of the “abuse” of the mental health exception would not be appealable in these circumstances.
The issue on whether there is a mental health exception and whether it was “abused” might be ripe for adjudication in the event Dr. Tiller is tried therefor in the future.
I find it amusing that anyone would call Mary a Fundie!! She is an independent thinker that thinks religion is for people who can’t set limits and boundries for themselves so need an external mechinism. Did I express that correctly, Mary? Actually I grew up a fundie but always believed that anyone who tried to convince us that everyone else was going to hell had some flaws in their belief system. You guys make me laugh.
Doug, YOU obviously don’t know much. Dr McGuire protested there for years before he died. The protesters aren’t “mine”, and no I didn’t sell my house to “Michael Dodd”..I have no idea who that is… I sold my house to Life, Inc. That’s where Choices Medical Clinic is now. After I sold the house, the pro abortion camp (I believed funded by Tiller) kept it in the courts for years, trying to stop the clinic. A worker for Tiller (her name was Alice, I won’t say her last name) even went on TV and accused them of keeping weapons and bombs stored there. For awhile, the media (very pro abortion) made my life a nightmare, my husband and I had our name all over the news until I threatened a lawsuit. It seemed like the “pro-choice” people weren’t really interested in choices, that’s not good for Tiller’s business I guess.Choices Medical Clinic is just that, they offer alternatives and help to women with unplanned pregnancies. I’m very proud of the work they do, and it tickles me pink that they’re right next to Tiller’s clinic.As far as wanting Tiller dead, when he got shot, who do you think ran to his aid? That’s right, the prolifers. Wow, maybe they actually practice what they preach.
Yes, Brenda, you got it right. I’m no fan of religion.You want to go our for dinner this week? Give me a call if you can.
Mary
I do not think it is fair to call the media or anyone else for that matter “pro abortion”.
No one is out grabbing women and dragging them to have abortions.
“It tickles me pink that they are right next door to Tillers clinic”
That’s a bit illustrative of a confrontational manner on your part. It’s a little disappointing.
Mary you support the Choices Clinic? Gosh, I’ve totally dropped my respect level completely. For someone who is pro-choice, and who says they realize the pain and sometimes necessity of abortion, you have a funny way of showing it if you support this group. From the website of choices…
“For a long time, Wichita has had a doctor specializing in killing babies through the violence of abortion. Now, for the first time, Wichita will have physicians who specialize in saving babies from the violence of abortion. Our team of physicians, nurses, social workers and other trained volunteers specialize in offering confidential, individualized care and compassion in assisting mothers and families in making God-honoring, life-affirming decisions. We hope to provide the best choice-the only choice that makes sense and the only choice that gives life.WARNING!!!
What follows are very graphic and disturbing images of the reality of abortion.
Nothing wrong with showing the truth about how abortion is done. Maybe more women would change their mind if they understood the reality of what it is.Have you ever been to the clinic, PM? I’d suggest you visit it before you judge them.They have some very caring, dedicated people working there. Their goal is about offering ALTERNATIVES to abortion.
JR, I don’t know what world you live in, but the media is very pro abortion. They love making Tiller look like a victim. They are very biased when it comes to reporting the abortion issue.
Sorry to disappoint you, JR. I’m known to be a little “confrontational” at times.
So Mary, do you think that guilting women for their decision when their life is in danger, or they were raped, is so compassionate?
Because that is what they do. They sit there to try to guilt women into changing their minds. Using terms like they do on their site says one thing, anyone who chooses to see the ‘murderer’ Tiller or have an abortion is bad.They chose right next to Tiller’s to be in the face of women making the decision.
How about just offering to help women without the bashing of abortion? Offer services to women who want to keep their babies, but feel they can’t WITHOUT JUDGEMENT IF THEY CHOOSE NOT TO!
Well,,,,
Tiller IS a victim.
I mean, he’s providing a legal service to people who want it. For this, his buisiness is picketed, his patients harrassed and he himself was nearly murdered. You may not like the service he provides. But the place to protest is in front of a courthouse or a state house.
Leftists just love to demonize everything and everyone who is not “PROGRESSIVE”. Old Jed here is the king of tolerance. Drug use, abortion, race mixing, man-boy-love, Jed is tolerant of all but INTOLERANCE!
Viva La Raza Blanco!!
They talk about the reality of abortion, if you see that as “guilting”, that’s your choice. I guess you’d rather pretend abortion is not about destroying a life, it’s just a “choice”.
Oh please, Ian. You’re the last person I need on my side. Go away, please.
“It tickles me pink that they are right next door to Tillers clinic” – Mary Caruso
Mary, I find your resolve on this issue refreshing and effective. You demonstrate that opposition to abortion is not necessarily limited to, nor based on, religious belief. The perception that pro-lifers are all fundamentalists damages the cause and helps ramp up those who defend the indefensible.
“That’s a bit illustrative of a confrontational manner on your part. It’s a little disappointing.” – JR
Jr, I’m thankful for Mary’s strong stand on this issue, but her “confrontational manner” is nothing compared to some of the pro-abortion crowd. And it is hard to think of Tiller as a victim, since he has thousands of his own.
Thank you, Outlander.
There are a lot of gruesome realities, the reality of mental illness, the reality of rape, the reality of women who do NOT want babies. The reality of decapitations in car accidents…do you demonize the EMT’s and cops for coming to the scene? Do you call automakers ‘killers’?
Life after birth isn’t pretty for some of these kids either.
Michael Dodds is one of the people who financed Choices Medical Clinic, a Christian Ministry (I wonder why they always leave that last part off). It’s sad to refer to that place as medical since their doctors knowingly give out false medical information.
Now you say Dr. McGuire is dead, yet pro-choicers are harassing him and threatening him. Strange to do that to someone who is dead. However, your tales are as absurd as your claim that I cheered and clapped with every patient that went into Tillers.
Don’t know what to say here. I think people should have choices about their medical care.
I hope health care providers convey that with the same spirit in mind.
I have been willing to listen to and read the maggotpunks point of view, as well as opposing viewpoints.
All I can ask for, is please listen to those with whom you agree with, and those you, don’t.
Good night & God bless.
Mary, I’ll call you.I personally dislike Tiller and think he is pretty arrogant. My husband used to be his mailman and I worried that he might get hurt by some bomb someone sent Tiller. When his clinic was bomb my friends in the police dept. told me they really thought Tiller did it himself for publicity. He does seem to put himself out there a lot and do controversial things that get in the news. It is hard for me to believe he doesn’t enjoy the spotlight.That being said I believe in what he does and will support women’s right to choice. I just wish we had a better spokesperson.
I know that the police thought the same, but I wasn’t going to say it, but it was someone on the bomb squad that said he did it himself to get on the national news. Funny how they never found the “perpetrator”.I don’t believe in what he does, the late term abortions are horrible, and to kill a viable baby because the mother is depressed is inexcusable.What do you think about the late term abortions?
Doug, the conflict has been going on for a long time. Dr McGuire is dead now, but he picketed Tiller’s clinic for a several years before he died, that was when he got harassed on a regular basis. He never harassed or bothered anyone, he just carried his sign every morning up and down the sidewalk. He was a kind and gentle man who dedicated his life to taking care of children.The clapping and cheering for women entering the clinic happened when Tiller did one of his maraton free abortion days about 3-4 yrs ago. The pro-choicer’s even shouted to the pro-lifers that “Mary (the mother of Jesus) should have had an abortion”. It was all in the paper, look in the archives, that’s where you’ll find it.What “false information” do the doctors at Choice’s give out, Doug? Have you been to the clinic? Or do you just listen to the pro-abortion spin out there, like the whooper that Choices keeps weapons and bombs in the basemnet. That was even on the local news several years ago.
I’ll admit, I don’t care for the Christian slant at Choices, I’m not a Christain, but they do offer positive alternatives to women who are desperate, those women who may feel like they have no choice but to abort. They offer information about the reality of abortion and they offer help. Approaching Life, Inc. with the idea and laying the foundation for that clinic to be there is one of the proudest accomplishments of my life. I’m not surprised that people like you are upset about it, you’re only interested in women having access to abortions, you’re not interested in supporting other choices. To say you’re pro-choice is a lie, you’re just pro-abortion.PM, your analogies don’t make sense. So the solution to unwanted children is to kill them? Have you ever entertained the idea that maybe they might WANT to live, even if their life isn’t all sunshine and roses. My problem is that they don’t get a say in the fact that they don’t get a chance at life.I don’t see this as a religious issue, I see it as a human rights issue. What right do you have to decide that someone else isn’t going have a life?I don’t believe in heaven or hell or any sort of afterlife, maybe that’s why I think our time on earth is so special, I wouldn’t want, nor do I have the right, to deny life to anyone.
Well you didn’t ask me but..
I think the hoo hah over late term abortion is a big fat hoax designed to chip away at a womans right to choose.
The FIRST months of pregnancy are the most difficult pysically. I cannot imagine a woman enduring that and then suddenly changing her mind without a very good reason.
Of course then I have to go to a good reason. Certainly severe deformity or pathology in the fetus would be acceptable grounds for ending a pregnancy. I venture that that is the case in almost all late term abortions.
But let us say a woman suddenly finds herself in financial difficulty. Her husband dies or leaves. She loses her job. Or the pregnancy becomes medically expensive and she does not have insurance. Given welfare “reform”, and the lack of options for such a woman. Well she would I think be justified in considering abortion.
Mary,I actually don’t believe in third trimester abortions except in extreme circumstances. For one thing, in this day and age when it is so easy to find out if you are pregnant I don’t see any reason for third trimester abortions. I really doubt that many of the abortions that Tiller does are that late term although I know he is one of the few doctors that do them. They say experience shapes our thinking and I guess that’s why I can’t see denying a woman the right to do what’s right for her because of my own experience,though.
I can’t see denying it either, no one should be forced to be a parent if they don’t want to be, but abortion is what it is, and that’s what I have a hard time with. Life is precious, and I wouldn’t want anyone taking mine away. I could never take another’s.My daughter did consider abortion when she found out she was pregnant, but I managed to convince her that being pregnant and having a baby wasn’t the end of the world. She has never regreted having Lil, in fact when she thinks about what she condsidered, it makes her sick. I understand your choice, you had no one to stand by you or help you, and you were already supporting your family. Beth knew that we were there for her no matter what, that’s what made the difference for her. That’s why I’m so adamant about supporting alternatives, a woman shouldn’t have to feel as though she has no other choice. I’ve honestly never met any woman who regreted giving birth, even when she choose to adopt out. But both you and I have met women who did regret having an abortion as they got older and more mature. Whatever choice a woman makes, it’s one she’ll have to live with the rest of her life. I just want women that there are other choices available to them.
JR, if a woman is 8 months pregnant and decides to have an abortion because of money or the death of a spouse, that’s ludicrous. Why not just adopt the baby out? Why would you kill and viable, healthy baby? That’s just sick.
Mary, I seriously doubt they’re aborting babies at 8 months for less than really important reasons.
Less than 1% are late term. So please, we’re talking a very few. Most for health reasons.
I know it’s impossible for some to not think of life as being this wonderful thing, but some of us just don’t. We’ve struggled our whole lives, and are pretty sick of it really.
I was just respnding to JR. I doubt that babies are aborted at that late stage for trivial reasons.I’m sorry that’s how you feel about life, we have such a short time here, it’s sad you don’t seem to enjoy it. But that’s what life is, ups and downs, tragedies and joy, it’s precarious journey to say the least.
*/
Sorry about all my errors tonight, my cat keeps walking on my keyboard and screwing things up.
I just don’t see it as all that fabulous. Sometimes it is, most of the time it isn’t. It’s hard, and some seem to have a really easy time of it compared to others and I think that sucks.
At least not believing in anything past this life, I can see why you find it more valuable. I do believe in an afterlife, and I think it’s better on the other side.
So what if you die and there is nothing there? You’ve wasted your time on earth hoping there would be something better after you’ve left it. I’m not willing to take that gamble.May I ask how old you are?
LOL well then I guess I won’t know it, will I! Much like a baby being aborted has no idea.
I’m going to be 35 soon.
I thought you were young! My son will be 35 on New Years Day.I’m going to be 54 in Feb. I think by the time you get my age you’ll see things differently. It does get easier, believe it or not. Almost everyone struggles at your age, it won’t always be so hard, unless you decide that’s how you want your life to be.
LOL 35 and I’m a spring chicken huh?
No, I don’t think my views will change. I’m pretty solid in my beliefs and I’ve always been pretty grounded. I wish I could go back to being 22 when I really believed that I was going to thrive.
Hey Mary?
Change your last name to Poppins.
Well Mary I’m glad you asked. I interviewed one of their doctors about the Plan-B being approved for over the counter use. She gave me a shipload of misinformation that was easily refuted by checking out what the FDA and medical studies had to say about it’s use.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=130331718&blogID=211622783&MyToken=2fca0c7e-e0b6-4355-905b-0f05b7f54553
The other anti-abortion facility located on Central also gave out a wealth of misinformation. It’s like antis only know how to lie.
http://www.maggotpunks.com/2004/2004-06-09.htm
Someone wiser than I once defined a fanatic as, “someone who won’t change his mind and won’t change the subject.”
Kline v. Abortion tends to define him as a fanatic.
For nearly forty years the law of the land has determined that a “life” in utero is not equal, under the law, to the life of the woman whose uterus might carry it.
Arbitrary? Perhaps. But all laws are arbitrary. You can’t get a driver’s license in Kansas until you’ve lived 16 years outside the uterus. Makes no difference if you were born a premie or were born weeks after the due date with a full head of hair and fingernails that need clipping. 16 years outside of the uterus, and you’re eligible to apply for a license.
The, perhaps arbitrary, law of the land is that a pregnant woman has rights that supercede a fetus in her womb. That’s civil law.
Now, if your religious devotion leads you to believe that “life” begins at conception, you’re free to live your life and those of your offspring accordingly. But your kid won’t get a driver’s license until s/he’s 16 years out of the womb.
Perhaps you follow the Roman Catholic tenet that served the church for more that 1800 years; that the moment of “quickening” (the pregnant woman’s perception of movement in the womb) marked the beginning of life. Live it, believe, but it’s still 16 years out of the womb before the Department of Motor Vehicles gets involved.
The Evangelical Jihad against late-term abortions is classic reductio ad absurdum. Yes, it might be “theoretically possible” that a perfectly healthy woman might carry a perfectly normal pregnancy 8 months and 29 days then, all of a sudden, choose to abort the pregnancy. But c’mon. When has that *ever* happened? Give me names, dates, and an opportunity to look into other circumstances surrounding that decision.
The trumped up horror stories of what *might* be possible in a world where late-term abortions are possible rarely (if ever) relate to the real-world circumstances of George Tiller’s practice.
And the real world matters.
Abortion Abolitionists behave as if the Supreme Court of the United States somehow invented abortion with Roe v. Wade. Fact is, women have been faced with unwanted pregnancies since before the first human law was ever written, and nothing any law passed by humans will change that fact.
Abortion Abolitionists mustfavor a return to back-alley butchers, because that’s what they’re working toward. Their absolutist attitude cannot possibly result in anything other than desperate women turning to someone, anyone, willing to take their money and attempt to solve their crises.
When that happens (and it’s happened a lot) women suffer and die. Full-grown, walking, thinking women as opposed to fetuses developing in the womb. There is, in the real world, a difference.
During the Clinton presidency, moderates reached out to the abolitionists with a goal to make abortion available, safe, and rare. The abortion fanatics refused to change their minds and refused to change the subject.
They spat back, “Baby killer,” threw bombs, and shot doctors and nurses.
It seems not to matter to the fanatics that there were fewer abortions performed during the 8 years between January 20, 1993 and January 20, 2001 than there’ve been since.
I’m sure there are those among the abortion abolitionist movement who are sincere in their religious beliefs. But the evidence is clear that the Republican Party has manipulated those true-believers for political gain, regardless of the issue they rail about at election time. Republicans want the issue more than they want the goal. Evangelicals and other anti-abortion absolutists can be counted on to vote against their personal self interests if only a Republican will proclaim “pro-life” status.
Phill Kline had four years in office to do what he attempted on the Friday before Christmas of his last days in office. If he’d really meant what he said to the Anti-Abortion bloc of Kansas Republicans, he’d been at it sooner, don’tcha think?
But we’ve seen in this forum a legion of fanatics who, given the choice of facing the truth or proving a lie, are all too willing to work on the proof.
It may work for them as a matter of faith. But it’s a pretty lousy political strategy.
Mary Poppins, JR. Hah! I wish she’d come and clean my house!I don’t see why it’s such a bad thing to see the glass half full rather than half empty all the time. I believe that’s it’s not so much what happens to you but how you choose to deal with it that makes the difference in life. It’s a self fulfilling prohecy, if you think life is a big bowl of shit, then it will be. I prefer to enjoy the time I have here, even though I see a lot of heartache everyday (being a nurse it’s inevitable), I also see lots of joy. Life is what it is, it’s up to you whether or not you want to be happy.
Believe me PM, to me your are a spring chichen! I’d love to be YOUR age again. It would be wonderful to be able to go back knowing what I know now, I’d certainly do a lot of things different.
Sorry, Doug, When you can provide me unbiased links, maybe I’ll listen to you.
Here i go with the spelling errors again, blame it on my cat, she developed a sudden fondness for my computer!
Ok Mary, I’ll trade with you. You can come live my life and be 35 again, but you have to take my fibromyalgia too.
I just finished listening to Doug’s investigation, and I have to say that she did seem really nice and passionate, and totally misinformed, didn’t address any of the real life issues as to why she might be facing an abortion in the first place. My first question would have been, “why do you feel that you can’t talk to your husband about this”. I can’t imagine not telling my husband about a decision like that. But I can imagine it when I was married to my first husband who was very abusive. That should have been a red flag about the relationship itself.
And as far as the one mom who brought the baby back in whose boyfriend wanted her to have the abortion. Yeah, that’s how it usually turns out isn’t it? That’s why we have so many abandoned mothers?
I don’t think doug’s link was biased, I don’t think it was fake.
Doug, a good study that says morning after pills in deeper research DOES NOT prevent a fertilized egg to implant. That it ONLY works before the egg is fertilized. This is the only study so far of it’s kind, the others merely speculated that it worked by preventing implantation. If you read those studies very carefully it says ‘it is believed’.
http://www.popcouncil.org/publications/popbriefs/pb11(2)_3.html
I expect to see more research that proves this to be the case, that fertilization NEVER EVEN OCCURS, so now, nobody can claim it causes an abortion, no matter how widely they interpret that to mean.
I do believe in an afterlife although I have much contempt for organized religion. I also believe that life is what you make it. Mary, you are really old!!! I won’t be 54 until next August. PM, we all have our crosses to bear. Trust me Mary has had hers and I have mine. MS is something I live with everyday but I will not be defined by it or the abuse I suffered as a child. Maybe Sol is right(yes I said that)you can turn your circumstances around. My life is good now but when I was your age I was very confused. It really does get better with age. Something has to because everthing else begins to fall out and spread out!!
Fibromyalgia. heh.
Hold on! Golf Nutz is stalking and trolling again!
Where you find P Mom, you’ll find Nutz, lurking in the corner.
Let me guess, Testicles thinks it’s one of those made up diseases?
I didn’t know you were a doctor too testicles.
MS and FM can have similar symptoms, but from my understanding most people with MS don’t have the pain issues as much. And at least MS gets serious consideration and can be treated depending on the kind of MS you have…right?
There are treatments. The level of pain depends on the type you have. I have pain at night and often have problems sleeping which contributes to the fatigue. I take a lot of medicine but it keeps me functioning so I can’t complain. One thing I have learned is that you basically have too choices in life. You can roll over and die or you can get up and fight. I’ve always been a fighter and a survivor.Fibromyalgia is a serious illness as well. There are some new treatments for it. Do you have a good neurologist?
Oh trust me I’m not laying down and dying, I have way too much to do. I just get sick of it, trying to keep up with how much I feel I should do vs how much I CAN do. And often too what other people THINK I should do.
I’ll start seeing a recommended pain specialist when I get my insurance. I had a run in with a really fabulous doctor that wasn’t my own who wanted to see me do better with the pain. It’s not that my doc now is bad, but he’s limited on what we can do without insurance. And this other doc had ties to Wichita and knew some of the better doctors to see there, with the access to the new information on treatment.
When you CHOOSE to live without insurance…..
Yeah because I CHOOSE to pay my house, electric, gas, cable and phone and food first- what is left over would not have paid for insurance at that time, how many times do I have to tell you that.
Like I CHOOSE to drive a late model because I can’t afford a new Lexus.
KG,What makes you think someone chooses to live without health insurance? She probably can’t afford it. A lot of companies especially small businesses can’t afford to provide it. It’s only going to get worse. Adequate healthcare should be a right in the richest country in the world. But you probably believe it is just a way to weed out the “weak.”
Don’t forget smoking, Pee. You choose that, too. And I’m sure there are many other unhealthy choices you make in lieu of healthcare.
But, when you’re fighting “fibromyalgia”…heh…
testicles………..you are f****** asshole
I’m so thankful that my husband’s company had good insurance when I was diagnosed with cancer, it would have bankrupted us if we didn’t have help. Everyone should have equal access to health care, and no one should have to lose their life savings and everything else in order to get help.My husband will probably lose his job this year because his company sold, I may not even be able to get health insurance because of my medical history, and even if I can qualify, it will be so outrageously expensive we won’t be able to afford it.We need socialized medicine. If we can pay for this god-forsaken war, we can afford to provide health care to EVERY citizen, not just the poor ones.
Be careful of your judgmental attitude Golf, it often comes aroung to bite you in the ass.
Here I go with the spelling errors again! I’m throwing the cat outside.
The reason our health care became so costly was because the government intervened to begin with.
I saw Tony Blair on TV bragging that they had gotten the wait for heart surgery down to 6 months. 6 months,of course the list is shrinking socialized medicine is killing them all off.
Move to Britain, or Canada if you want that crap. I personally want the government completely out of the health care business.
Sorry, it’s better to wait than to not have access at all. I don’t hear the Brits or Canadians complaining about their health care system the way we do here.It’s a matter of priorities, I’d rather see our money go to preventative medicine and adequate health care for everyone, not war and the attempt to control other governments.
Mary, I completely agree with you. I would have a hard time getting insurance with my medical history as well. I am just lucky enough to have healthcare through my husband and it is a quality policy. I can’t understand how anyone thinks we can trust insurance companies to do what is right when they have demonstrated that they are only in the business of taking our money and fighting to keep us from ever getting it back when we need it. Hawaii has done an excellent job at providing quality healthcare for their citizens on the state program. I think that all states should follow their lead and I think it could be adapted to meet everyone’s needs. In Canada and Britain people move up on the list if their comdition warrants it. It is not like they have to choose between death and treatment.
The outcomes in British health care is _better_ than it is here. What does that mean?
We have pretty expensive health care that is doing worse in patient outcomes than that reported in socialized medicine countries? Help me understand that.
I no longer sell accident & health ins; got out of that years ago because I could see the trend coming. I am still a P&C agent. I now have custody of two grandchildren: both have pre-existing conditions. The 6 yo is legally blind and will need future surgery; the other has femoral anteversion and will need extensive surgery on both legs. It involves (no nice term here) cutting through both thigh bones, turning the bone in the sockets, pins, screws, rods to put it all back together; 3 month in a wheelchair, and extensive PT.
If she doesn’t have this surgery, the older she gets, the more problems she will have with this and bottom line is ending up probably with osteoarthritis in both hips. Per Childrens Mercy in KC.
Do you think I can get any health insurance company to look at them? And they don’t qualify for medicaid or any other stand alone insurance because of my income.
Any suggestions, KSgolfnuts? Don’t assume until you have walked in someone else’s shoes. Please.
Beck
Your situation is exactly what we’re talking about. You don’t meet the income guidlines for state assistance, but you’re not independantly wealthy, so you can’t afford the treatments either.Well, Golf, what would you suggest? You’re always so full of answers, what wise advice do you have for those in our shoes?
Talk is cheap. Could you walk into Tiller’s abortion clinic and watch him destroy the life of a child? Could you assist him? Would you want your wife or girl friend to be placed in his grasp to have her baby pulled out of her body? Would you want your own child killed and thrown into a heap of garbage to be disposed of? If you can’r do it, why support it? Everyone thinks they have the answers to the problems of poverty, unplanned pregnancy, and birth defects, but it reallyshould not be killing of the children. We can’t kill off every problem we encounter. Operation Rescue is doing a great service, and I believe that God is blessing them because I don’t think Those aborted babies will want to meet up with Tiller if he should happen to go to Heaven to meet our Lord. I don’t believe he has to worry about his fate, he has sealed it with the devil!alaynastaggers@yahoo.com
Talk is cheap. Could you walk into Tiller’s abortion clinic and watch him destroy the life of a child? Could you assist him? Would you want your wife or girl friend to be placed in his grasp to have her baby pulled out of her body? Would you want your own child killed and thrown into a heap of garbage to be disposed of? If you can’r do it, why support it? Everyone thinks they have the answers to the problems of poverty, unplanned pregnancy, and birth defects, but it reallyshould not be killing of the children. We can’t kill off every problem we encounter. Operation Rescue is doing a great service, and I believe that God is blessing them because I don’t think Those aborted babies will want to meet up with Tiller if he should happen to go to Heaven to meet our Lord. I don’t believe he has to worry about his fate, he has sealed it with the devil!alaynastaggers@yahoo.com
Rape of 2 girls ages 11 and 12, were reported to Nola Foulston DAof Wichita, Kansas by Phil Kline who was trying to give her the info on abortionists; but she ignored the abortion on the 11 year old girl (done by Zareski) and the child was returned to her abusive step father. 4 pregnancies were reported between these 2 girls by their stepfather who was sentenced in Oct. 2005,PHIL KLINE DID HIS JOB! DA Foulston did not. She was paid off by the abortionists, especially George Tiller! WHY IS KANSAS PROTECTING SEX OFFENDERS AND CHILD KILLERS?? MONEY! MONEY!MONEY! MONEY! Shame on you NOLA FOULSTON for NOT LISTENING when these crimes were brought to YOUR ATTENTION by PHIL KLINE!
“Mothers Against Abortion”alaynastaggers@yahoo.com
Rape of 2 girls ages 11 and 12, were reported to Nola Foulston DAof Wichita, Kansas by Phil Kline who was trying to give her the info on abortionists; but she ignored the abortion on the 11 year old girl (done by Zareski) and the child was returned to her abusive step father. 4 pregnancies were reported between these 2 girls by their stepfather who was sentenced in Oct. 2005,PHIL KLINE DID HIS JOB! DA Foulston did not. She was paid off by the abortionists, especially George Tiller! WHY IS KANSAS PROTECTING SEX OFFENDERS AND CHILD KILLERS?? MONEY! MONEY!MONEY! MONEY! Shame on you NOLA FOULSTON for NOT LISTENING when these crimes were brought to YOUR ATTENTION by PHIL KLINE!
“Mothers Against Abortion”alaynastaggers@yahoo.com
Correction on the above: The stepfather who used his 2 stepdaughters as sex slaves (which was known by the mother) his name being, Robert Estrada, was sentenced in Oct. 2006. 4 pregnancies resulted! These documents were presented to Nola Foulston by Phil Kline, but she did not want the abortion clinics investigated, inspected, or any charges brought against George Tiller for the 30 charges which were brought against him and supported by evidence and 2 judges acknowledgement that an actual case existed against Tiller! Zaremski, the abortionist who performed the abortion on the 11 year old girl did not report the sexual abuse, returned her to her stepfather to continue raping her, and Zaeemski is STILL DOING ABORTIONS IN KANSAS! Somebody had better get on the ball, THE LAW IS BEING EVADED IN KANSAS_THE POLITICIANS ARE PAYING OFF THE ABORTIONISTS!!!Attorney General, Paul Morrison, who is pro-choice had better be pro-law and DO HIS JOB! Morrison and Foulston wanted the only man with any integrity, who wanted the killing of children to END—PHIL KLINE to be ousted; so they could continue their dirty little deed of protecting child molesters and abortionists so their financial status would increase! “Mothers Against Abortion” wants JUSTICE FOR THESE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!
alaynastaggers@yahoo.com