The pay gap between men and women is narrowing — from 26.3
percent difference in 2000 to 23 percent in 2005 — but not because
women have made great strides, the Los Angeles Times reported. Rather, it’s because because men’s wages are eroding.
"Wages generally have been depressed, but men’s have been more
depressed," Michele Leber, chair of the Washington, D.C.-based National
Committee on Pay Equity, told the Times.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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162 Comments
Shh, don’t tell Golfnuts, he thinks women don’t deserve as much wages as men.
It is sad that everyone’s wages are falling, but at least they might finally equal out. Not in a good way obviously.
There just now noticing this? For almost a decade higher paying jobs have been going away. Being replaced with medium wage to lower wage jobs. While the cost of living has been ballooning, with wages on a downhill and the cost of living on a uphill. The effect is bound to effect all standards of living.At one time a banker did not even take into account any income from the female spouse when looking at the family money in considering a loan. The wife could be making three time the husband, Yet it was only the male’s income that they considered. But Retailers, producers and bankers suddenly noticed this untapped source of money and everything went up. Thus forcing more women into the work force and the cost of living went even higher.
But by forcing more women into the work force it also brought more into bargaining for higher wages.Thus the wages for women started to rise and the wages for men to start down as employers try to compensate. If you factor in the move to take jobs over seas, the over all wage base has lowered.
Part of the reason that women’s wages are lower is they sometimes step out of the workplace for a while for one reason or another (babies, kids, well paid husband).They lose the seniority/experience factor.
On this issue fleettwood makes a valid point. Another factor sometimes holding down a woman’s wages is the ‘trailing spouse’ situation. I have known professional women who have chosen to take a job outside her field s that she can be in the city her husband has relocated to. Now, looking at the family, perhaps the decision should be reversed but that is rare. So, because of this, she ends up earning less than she would elsewhere.
The wage gap only exists statistically. Can anyone list actual cases of the gap? Any documentation at all? Remember, all factors besides gender must be equal. To help your search I suggest you start with the courts. Start there because any individual worth their salt who could prove that they are paid less due to gender has a free shot at their employer for discrimination.
I would guess that if the claimed wage gap exists you should be able to find millions of lawsuits.
http://counterpunch.org/roberts05082006.html
Life in the Bush Economy: Fat, Drunk and BrokeA Nation of Waitresses and Bartenders
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
The Bureau of Labor Statistics payroll jobs report released May 5 says the economy created 131,000 private sector jobs in April. Construction added 10,000 jobs, natural resources, mining and logging added 8,000 jobs, and manufacturing added 19,000. Despite this unusual gain, the economy has 10,000 fewer manufacturing jobs than a year ago.
Most of the April job gain –72%–is in domestic services, with education and health services (primarily health care and social assistance) and waitresses and bartenders accounting for 55,000 jobs or 42% of the total job gain. Financial activities added 26,000 jobs and professional and business services added 28,000. Retail trade lost 36,000 jobs.
During 2001 and 2002 the US economy lost 2,298,000 jobs. These lost jobs were not regained until early in February 2005. From February 2005 through April 2006, the economy has gained 2,584 jobs (mainly in domestic services).
The total job gain for the 64 month period from January 2001 through April 2006 is 7,000,000 jobs less than the 9,600,000 jobs necessary to stay even with population growth during that period. The unemployment rate is low because millions of discouraged workers have dropped out of the work force and are not counted as unemployed.
Back in the 70’s, I remember hearing in a class at WSU that a single woman could not get a loan for a house–UNLESS she was beyond the age of childbearing or had had a hysterctomy.
As far as I know, that has changed, but I wonder if it’s changed completely.
Why do women work for less than men for the same jobs?
–Because they will.
And, the higher paying jobs aren’t going away, the average is skewed because the largest job GROWTH is in entry level jobs. We have a growing population with teenagers and college students working more – so jobs that can be filled by that demographic are growing fastest.
“The unemployment rate is low because millions of discouraged workers have dropped out of the work force and are not counted as unemployed.”Boo HooBuck up. The Constitution only guarantees the “pursuit of Happiness” the Libs want to make it a law.”I’m discouraged so I’ll quit looking for a job”Welfare social net = hammock
rox – that might have been true in Wichita but not out in the real world. I knew single women in California who got home loans without difficulty.
fleetwood = minor irritant
Gender discrimination no doubt still goes on. My mom had 7 of some 30 years at Beech that she does not get a pension for. Why? She got fired when she got pregnant with me.
Litigation COULD go a long way to redress this. Trouble is? Without a union no employee has reliable knowledge of what other employees are making. The way to end that would be to demand that all employers make public the knowledge of who is getting paid what. That would shed all sorts of light on how things are currently set up.
PeeMom,As usual, you’re wrong.
I don’t think women should earn less than men at all. In fact, I think every single employee should earn what he/she is worth. If a woman can do a job better than a man, she should earn more than he.
(Moreover, this is why labor unions are a bane to the American economic system; they bring all employees to one central wage – hurting the over-achiever and rewarding the below average worker. So, if you love labor unions, you’re probably in the latter segment of the population.)
However, there are two forces in play when determining a wage: company and employee. The company wants to control costs to keep the company profitable, so it works to keep wages in check. The employee works in his/her best interest to earn as much as possible. The result: a negotiation.
And women will work for less. It’s a fact. If you take a sample of potential workers – say, 40 or so, 20 men and 20 women, all applying for the same job. Survey them and ask them what they expect to make for this job. The men will expect to make about 20% more. This has been proven many times in multiple studies.
And corporations use the fact that women will work for less to their advantage. But that still does not make it right. Corporations need to start acting like responsibile citizens and upholding our country instead of trying to make that last dime off someone’s misfortune or misery.
The problem is, Sunny…
If companies don’t do everything possible to hold down costs and be competitive, they tend to fall into another category: bankrupt.
Then no one has a job with them.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again.If you don’t like you job, find a new one. Cry babies.
Besides women have ways to earn more. Its just expected that they will use them. This is the real world.
Heh.
Besides women have ways to earn more. Its just expected that they will use them. This is the real world.
Posted by: fleettwood | December 06, 2006 at 09:22 AM
I didn’t write that.
I’ve been trolled again. Typical Libs.
“I’ve been trolled again. Typical Libs”
Not just libs fleettwood – note how often P-Mom has been trolled. Lets just say a**holes for all trolls.
“And, the higher paying jobs aren’t going away, the average is skewed because the largest job GROWTH is in entry level jobs. We have a growing population with teenagers and college students working more – so jobs that can be filled by that demographic are growing fastest.”
http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/usinterimproj/natprojtab02b.pdf
You will note from these census beureau projections, that the older age groups are growing the fastest and will until 2050. Census projections are usually “dead on” accurate. So these data indicate that we are an aging population that is adding jobs for fewer, percentage-wise, younger workers. This is supposed to be a good thing? Doesn’t seem that way to me…
Your statement must be a right-wing talking point. My experience is that reality is usually biased against right-wing talking points; as these data vividly demonstrate…
ProudMAN- here are the stats.
http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/ProfWomen.pdf
To see by every criteria known:
http://www.pay-equity.org/info.html
Note careers where women dominate, as in nursing, teaching, etc…women STILL make less than men.
I’m glad golfnuts thinks he can walk into a place and demand his own pay, but unfortunately for the rest of us in the real world, we’re TOLD what we will be earning.
And no, men change careers too, so the childbearing doesn’t really affect that for many women. It’s no different than a man’s extended vacation. Besides the law is supposed to protect women’s jobs during maternity leave.
Then why do corporations cut jobs to the bone, pile more work on the remaining employees and then expect those employees to be ‘grateful for their jobs’. And this is all done so that shareholders and CEO’s can get every blood-thirsty dime. Is a dime more profit really worth it?
That’s what I meant by corporations being better citizens of the country. Companies can make a profit by doing the right thing – many don’t choose to do the right thing because of too much greed.
Pol_Mom,
Those are still just statistics, not real examples of the wage gap. I’m looking for data showing real cases of discrimination.
One of the studies you pointed towards is laughable: http://www.pay-equity.org/PDFs/EquivalentJobs.pdf
You cannot just deem jobs equivalent. Why not just compare women and men working the same job at the same employer? Then all you have to do is adjust for experience level or other factors more targeted at the individual.
If lawyers could get their hands onto these supposedly discriminated against women, they would file a class-action suit and hit paydirt. If you really think this is all true, then give John Edwards a call. He needs the press.
From the “Economist View”, these are articles under the income distribution heading at Mark Thoma’s blog.Thoma is a respected Econ professor University of Oregon.
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/income_distribution/index.html
There is a class action law suit against Wal-Mart. The reason? It was discovered that female managers were being paid less then male managers for the same size stores.
hmmmm…
It could well be that Cali was allowing loans to single women who weren’t allowed in KS or other states. I heard it at a class on Women’s Studies (basically a Women’s Lib class) at WSU back in the early 70’s. It could be that things across the country were changing at that time. A lot of things did.
Where I worked it was known that the men made more than the women. Take for example, I had been working a place for 7 years, had 13 years experience- worked doing that job since I was 15 years old and with always positive reviews. Jerk man comes to work, and is making 2 dollars more an hour than I was and doing half of the work I did. Here’s the kicker though- if we discussed salaries, we were canned on the spot.
There is a reason why employers want to keep that so hush hush. I liked my job, and I wasn’t willing to lose it. Oh and at that time I had only taken off 6 weeks for maternity leave in all of those years. He hadn’t worked in the field even half of what I had.
The stats are equal in that study, you just don’t want to admit it. What you’re saying is that all the men came and stayed in one place, in one career, but the women were in and out. Life isn’t like that, everyone comes in and out. But statistically, one is likely to change careers 3 times in their lives.
PeeMom,If you don’t like the pay you’re offered, do what any sensible person does – go elsewhere.
Or, are you bound by some kind of slavery deal?
PeeMom’s posts on this topic continue to prove what I’ve been saying about liberals – they LOVE to play the victim.
“He’s making more than me”"He did half the work”"The company fires us for comparing wages”
waaaahhhh
Why in the F are you so worried about what someone else makes?
Political Mom is being trolled by KS Golf Nuts – it doesn’t take genius to figure that one out.
Now if Nutz would just let us know where his businesses are at so that we can avoid contributing to his financial “empire” we could get on with it.
Wadda say, Nutz, do you want us leftist bastards putting money in you coffers?
That would be a little (a lot) hypocritical, now wouldn’t it?
Consider this when thinking of wages.
Corporate american greed has turned over about 70% of americanmanufacturing to China so I read. Goods manufactured in the USA was a huge strengthfor the USA economy. Corporate America waltz’s into China and offers to exploit the chinese workers to increase their profits and of course the Chinese government does not give a damn.
The chinese government realizes that greed is a substantial weakness in the the western link which puts them in a place to exploit the american economy to their advantage while at the same time weakening our economy as they in a calculating manner put americans out of work. Meanwhile they are very busy building up their military. One day all China has to do is tell corporate USA the party is over and they will no longer manufacture goods for american corporations. Meanwhile they have gathered specs for millions of products which they can produce and flood markets while at the same time Wall Street sinks and more american jobs are lost due to our economy going bust.
What then? Cannot declare war over a bad business deal.
What’s wrong goof, afraid your new business will suffer because you pay your women less than your men?
I say again:PeeMom, do you have ADD? Are you cerebrally challenged? Are you autistic?
It’s clear that I pay employees what they’re worth.
[from my post at 9:05 this morning]:I don’t think women should earn less than men at all. In fact, I think every single employee should earn what he/she is worth. If a woman can do a job better than a man, she should earn more than he.
Clark,I don’t need to troll anyone. My common-sense remarks are plenty caustic without having to resort to clandestine posting.
So come on clean Golfnuts and tell us your place of biz. I do not care to trade with you.
Isn’t it curious that the troll problem got worse on the blog right around the time political mom started posting here? I say that long history she speaks of with goof ball is playing out.
Richard Heckler,Looks like the Chinese have learned well.Remember this Lenin quote:
The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them
“Yeah, it doesn’t take a genius to figure anything you post dumb dumb. What a fuckhead.”
Troll post by Golf Nutz.
Brilliant…..
Ha!
The moron golfnuts can troll my nic and my email but he can’t type my nic correctly.
Hey golfnuts? I been doing a little work back channel. You know research and stuff. I’ve seen a few posts from you in other forums.
You do not want to get crossways with me. I don’t play nice.
JR,You keep making those threats….yet, you do nothing.
You’ve demanded that I play nice with PeeMom, and I haven’t.
What more do I have to do to call your bluff?
We can take or make this just as personal as you would like.
My email is live if you care to take private just what your problem is.
Ignore him JR he’s not worth it.
What are you going to do, jr? Have like a virtual fight via the internets? It’s like the Cowardly Lion. Put ‘em up, put ‘em up
Printer Ink for blood?
Problem is, KSGolfnuts has been posting with others’ ids.
Golf is a fratboy elitist, he thinks the rest of us are all beneath him. Probably cheats on his wife (you did invite scarlet the harlot to lunch, now didn’t you), then smacks wifey around for not bowing down to his superiorness. If a real man actually challenged him he’d cry like a baby.
Problem is, KSGolfnuts has been posting with others’ ids.
Posted by: fleettwood | December 06, 2006 at 02:51 PM
Not my post. I don’t think it is GNuts that is doing the trolling.I don’t know who it might be and I don’t know how anyone (like WS) could.
pmom-Do you know him? If not, why would you say such things?Also, are we now allowed to use nics to make fun of you like you do others?
“Not my post. I don’t think it is GNuts that is doing the trolling.I don’t know who it might be and I don’t know how anyone (like WS) could.”
It’s realy easy, Fleet, the trolling is done mostly when Nutz is on board – and someone shows him up.
Read back on a few threads and you can see what I mean.
Nutz is a trolling bastard.
And it is amazing what a really good hacker can do…….
Ok now he’s double posting me?
Sheesh nuts if you are gonna pretend to be me could you at least pretend to know what you are doing?
Gutless turd.
Nice try, Nutz, you are about as transparent as the space between Bush’ ears…….
You know, Nutz, it won’t take all that much to figure this out…..
As I said, you’re a trolling bastard, Nutz, with no balls.
Gutless turds now rule the weblog.Get used to it.
“What more do I have to do to call your bluff?”
Make it easy, Nutz, tell us your businesses and we can take it from there……
At least this might make the eagle-beacon require some kind of registration.
Good luck with that woody.One of the editors contacted me and apologized for the trolling.He also said that the eagle does not own the blog, the parent company does (Kansas.com).The eagle has requested registration and the company refused.It can’t be that damned hard to block IP addresses.The only remedy is to abandon the blog to the trolls.Till something changes, you don’t even know if it’s me writing this.Kind of damned ridiculous, HUH?
Yes, although we are not known, I don’t care to have my “name” trolled with comments I don’t ascribe to. Oh, well. I doesn’t matter that much.
Pol_Mom – “The stats are equal in that study, you just don’t want to admit it.”
I assume you are talking to me. The study you refer to compared the following as equal:
Food Service to CarpenterHealth Aide to a Sanitation PlumberRegistered Nurse to an ElectricianAuto Mechanic to a Customer Billing Analyst
All I want to see is data showing all other things being equal, women make less than men for a particular job.
As far as the Wal-Mart lawsuit, I remember something about that. So we have one employer who may be actively discriminating. What about the other millions of female ‘workers’ out there? Is Wal-Mart an anomaly or the standard?
Works every time.
A bully will always bail when forcibly confronted.
So much for the troll.
Hey Proud? Wal mart is only the largest employer in the country. If they are discriminating against women the problem is even wider spread then I had feared.
Like I posted earlier, remember it was not so long ago women were fired for getting pregnant.
Forcibly confronted? You make it sound like a street fight and it isn’t. It’s somebody making threats of harm that can never come true. It’s kind of pussy, really.
Fleets I already answered your question on another thread, aparently you didn’t read it.
I don’t care what names you call me. Want me to make some up for you?
Shamefully, for you, you already have.
Wal-Mart is the largest private employer in the U.S. Which is relevant how? At about 1.1 million workers it’s not even 1% of the overall workforce. I say again, if the practice was going on then these types of lawsuits would be rampant. Equal rights for women is hardly a new concept. After 40+ years of you expect me to believe females would tolerate this kind of treatment?
Whoops,
After 40+ years of the equal rights movement. . .
Hey Fleetwood,
Try “political skank whore” for her. She may not mind it, but her girlfried TRACY may ride in to try and defend her honor.
http://www.classroomtools.com/equ-ans.htm
Proudman, comparing actual jobs done by women and men, same jobs, average wages for each.
Political skanky whore, hey I like it S&M, right up your alley baby.
We DON”T tolerate it, we have little power to do anything about it though. Find out how much our male counterparts make then bring a lawsuit. Yeah, that’ll just get us fired. Especially since the supreme court just nixed the whistleblower law.
I would like to see a mandatory reporting by companies to the federal government, on how much they pay women vs men. And then the govt could give that information to the workers, by average instead of per person.
Anyone notice golf disappeared when I mentioned his date with scarlet?
Hmm.
Same thing happened on the other blog we used to belong to.
Pee-I’ve never disappeared. Not there; not here. Date with Scarlett? Bawhahaha. You’re obviously too dimwitted to recognize sarcasm when it’s used on the board. Although, frankly, that doesn’t surprise me.
Pee-You blatently avoided my question: why are you so worried what everyone else makes?
JR-Just what exactly is your idea of “forcibly confronted?”
Cuz..if this is it, I’m not feelin’ much force. Capeice?
All,I use one and only one nic. You can continue to blame me for your troll troubles if you wish.
Also, none of you are anywhere near my target market, so don’t expect me to give out any personal information.
PS: Have a nice day =)
“We DON”T tolerate it, we have little power to do anything about it though.”
I will never respect the ‘Oh Poor Pitiful Me Arguement’. You live in the U.S.A. You have choices.
BTW, you do tolerate it if you think you can’t do anything about it.
really proud, well why don’t you go right up to your boss and tell him you’d like to make 2k more a year. let me know tomorrow how that works out for ya.
So when he is not being annoying here golfnuts cheats on his wife? Yikes she may find out about it. I think she helps write some of his more coherent posts.
I’d like to see full disclosure laws where an employer is forced to post how much he is paying each employee. Lousy for morale but that’s the point.
I’ve changed employers 6 times in 12 years since graduating college.Everytime has been for better pay and/or benefits.The great thing about America is we are all free agents.Not happy? There is a competitive company in your line of work.
KIA,Perfect answer. I’ve done the same thing.
I laugh laugh laugh at you whiney ‘victims’ that think companies would even consider posting the wages of all employees.
I ask again…WHY DO YOU CARE WHAT OTHERS MAKE?
vot republakun, ur life wil b gooder.
Pol_Mom,
I don’t go in a demand a raise on a whim. I track the market for my job skills and work to ensure I make the best living I can. When you don’t start with an us verses management mentality you can get ahead much easier.
Try http://www.salary.com and see if you are paid market wages for your skills.
ProudMan,Excellent thought. Employers are much more likely to negotiate with a friendly employee than a hostile one.
Oh so I see how it works, you don’t like it, you just go somewhere else, losing seniority. So if you can make 2k more, come on proud, go get on it.
It really isn’t quite as easy as you want to make it seem.
Especially for women.
“seniority”
That’s the most moronic concept in employment. And yet another reason why labor unions are poison.
Sounds like “Proud Man” “KSgolfnut know how to place their noses for best results.
Anybody who doesn’t regard magagement as the enemy is likely a brown noser.
twooneb,anyone that thinks like you doesn’t last long in my company.
Who the hell would WANT to last long in your company, Nutz?
Clark,We’re a great team, and we make a lot of money.
I do not consider myself a brownnose not do I consider management to be my enemy. I do, however, realize that our interests are not necessarily totally congruent.
I often champion others to get raises; I find that then we both do.
What management understands, and the workforce typically doesn’t….
…is that the health of the company is paramount above all else. If the company fails, we all lose our jobs.
And, if the company prospers, we all prosper.
“We’re a great team, and we make a lot of money.”
You make a lot of money. If your business persona is anything like your personal persona, then I would imagine that you screw your employees regularly and without mercy.
Key with someone like you is organization.
I don’t think you have a company. From what I read I think you just like to talk.
I’m retired. I do this for fun. I’d come work at your place and find me a couple confederates who need some help. Then we’d all demand a raise at a critical moment. If we didn’t get it we’d quit on the spot. This works really well at restaurants. One time it didn’t and I bought dinner for the folks who quit with me and made the firing assistant manager serve it. One of the best dinners I ever ate.
As I’ve said repeatedly, I pay my employees what they’re worth. AND, we all have incentives. Very aggressive incentives. If we make plan, every single employee has an opportunity to make a bonus equal to about 1/3 of his annual pay.
And we have fun – golf tournaments, picnics, occasional pizza lunches…
And, when we’re in a crunch, I’m not shy about asking people to work longer hours.
Seniority is important. It matters when you go up for raises…it matters when you go for NEW jobs…it matters for how long vacation time you get. In some places, it matters how much percentage you pay for your health insurance.
New employers look for longevity.
And I can only imagine that Golf would be a horror to work for.
twoo,You wouldn’t get a chance to ask twice for a raise during a critical moment. I don’t tolerate that kind of BS.
‘Course, we’re doing something a little more technical than serving pancakes.
So what is it that you do, Nutz?
I with you twooneb, I don’t think the golfnut has a company either. Just another consere-o-bot.
Seniority has nothing to do with raises. Raises are based on performance.
Seniority has nothing to do with applying for a new job (within the company). The new job goes to the person best suited to do the job.
Seniority has nothing to do with vacation. Years of service and seniority are not the same thing.
We all pay the same for health insurance.
And…I’ve had this business since 1999. Started with two employees (plus me part-time). Now we’ve got 28. We had one person quit last year. 1/28…what’s that turnover rate? Less than 4%. hmm…
I think they’re happy. Oh, and that incentive bonus? We’ve made it every year.
Sheesh golf do you ever let up?
You don’t have any company. If you did you wouldn’t still be working part time for someone else. YOU know, like you posted that you did “because I like it”?
And then there is your trolling activities seen here today. AND your proud? attacks on political mom.
Guy? You’re a windbag. Blow somewhere else will ya? Hell folks on your own side politically don’t want you here. Take a hint.
Again, JR – meaningless.
I thought you were going to DO something to me. I mean, you made all those threats. Where’s the action, dude?
Nutz is actually a seventeen year old boy with a bad case of acne, posting from a room in his Mommy’s basement.
Clark, when you make moronic posts like that…Can you see why I choose not to answer your questions about my personal life?
Golf, you just this week started saying you own your own business, now suddenly you’re in business since 99. I think you’re a windbag loser who is full of ego and knows not a damn thing. And a liar to boot. At least I don’t have to embellish my life on a freaking message board.
And everywhere and I do mean everywhere I have worked, longevity, seniority MEAN a lot and have everything to do with the things I stated above. My last job, how much you pay for insurance was directly related to how long and how many hours you worked.
Seniority, when the people you work with within the same job, but you’ve been there LONGEST.
And before you even try again to say it is not- here is the dictionary definition.
sen·ior·i·ty / Pronunciation[seen-yawr-i-tee, -2. priority, precedence, or status obtained as the result of a person’s length of service, as in a profession, trade, company, or union: First choice of vacation time will be given to employees with seniority.
I’m beginning to even wonder if you graduated college with how often you’re wrong by my lowly uneducated self.
I’m just helping you do it to yourself nutz. Clark and political mom are helping out nicely too.
Have you noticed that your “audience” is now down to about 3 people all of whom prove you an idiot at every turn? Do you imagine that is a coincidence? See anybody “getting your back” do ya?
Your goose is cooked here golf. You’ve roasted yourself and you are now no more than an irritating clown.
Dance for us!
Where’s an organ grinder when I need one?
WSClark,You must have struck a nerve with your last post.
I’m enjoying a good laugh at you, PeeMom.
I’ve said all along that I’ve had this business since ‘99. I know you don’t like reading what I have to say. That’s why you’re a lifer employee making…what $8/hr? If you’re happy with that – then by all means, enjoy.
Seniority is a comparitive term when used in labor discussions. If you hired one-day prior to your buddy, then you have ’seniority’ over him. That, my friends, is the dumbest concept known to modern business.
Vacation time is scheduled based on seniority. New positions are offered by seniority. Standing in line at the microwave at breaktime is by seniority.
And typically, those with the most seniority were the LEAST productive employees. If a worker is making twice the average, he’d better be doing twice the work…
Notice how I answer every question you ask of me (other than personal data)?
Now, I’m curious why none of you mensas will answer this (now posted for the 3rd time):
Why the hell do you care what other people make?
Pol Mom,
Why is every post now is that ‘It can’t be done’? It’s cause I’m a woman. I can’t leave cause I need seniority. You are waiting for someone to give you what you think you deserve. You might as well be waiting for Santa Claus.
I believe you said you are a nurse. There are many places you can work and demand for your skills. You owe it to yourself to figure out what the market pays for your skills. If you are underpaid. . .do something about it.
I care that my company values my contribution based on my performance and NOT by gender. THAT is why I care. I care that I bust my ass to support my family and give more than I have to in order to be a good employee, and that it is acknowledged and compensated. Making less is like thumbing their noses at women.
Whats worse, that black men and women both make worse wages for the same jobs as well. That is also a statistical fact.
No I am not a nurse. Right now, I’m thankful to be employed. It isn’t easy to find a job.
PeeMom,What does all that have to do with what OTHER people make? If you don’t make enough at your job, why not find another one?
You’re so busy worrying about what OTHERS get compared to you, it’s no wonder that you’re not getting anywhere in life.
Again – the victim.
I can honestly say that in my career (I graduated from KU in 1989 – 17 years), I have never cared what my co-workers have made. Not ever.
I’ve always based my opinions about my salary on what I contribute to the company and vs. what I could make elsewhere.
‘Course, I’m not a victim, and I’m sure not a whiner.
*shrug*
“Why the hell do you care what other people make?”
Now I know that you are not a real business owner, Nutz.
It’s call market value.
In 1929, Babe Ruth made $80,000 per year. Do you think that he would take the salary in 2006?
In 1972, you could by a new Ford Crown Vic for $3,500. Do you think you could make the same offer for a CV at your local Ford Dealer?
In 1983, I bought a new Harley-Davidson FLHTC Electra Glide for $8,500. The same bike goes for $19,500 today.
Do you think that you could pay “your” top employee half of the market rate for his/her job and keep that employee for any length of time?
Like I said, now I know that you’re just a posuer, pretending to be a big business mogal.
Market value……..
What a Fleeter…….
I thought you were a nurse. Something you wrote about my ER.
Oh well.
No that was my troll who wrote that.
YOU don’t get it Golf, you never had to worry about being undervalued and underpaid. It’s literally like being used. Something you would probably never understand.
Would you tell blacks that they shouldn’t be worried about wage discrimination? That it’s no big deal that they’re consistently underpaid in the workplace?
It is the EXACT SAME THING.
Ehh, if that’s where you want to direct your focus – and you’ll forever be locked into that $8/hr job.
People that succeed focus elsewhere.
Nutz, even in the unlikely case that you DO actually own a business, you’re not the only one here that has a business background.
I am retired after over thirty years in industrial management, both as a manager and executive for several major American companies.
It does not take a genius to figure out that all employees know what their coworkers are making and that those same employees know what the market is for their particular skill set.
You cannot retain employees if you do not pay them market value for their work.
If you cannot retain your employees, you risk losing your most valuable resource – the people that actually do the job that makes money for the owners and stockholders.
As I have said before – I doubt that you are a business owner, given your cavalier attitude towards the wages you pay to “your employees.”
Clark,You don’t evaluate market value by worrying about what your co-workers make.
If you look upward, you’ll see that I foster wage integrity via market analysis. I know what other employers are paying, and I make sure that my employees aren’t on the short end.
But no employer can pay an employee more than what he is worth to the company. You can’t pay $20/hr for a $10/hr job – the economics simply won’t work.
I’ll tell you this, my employees don’t have a significant pay gradient among those with common titles/responsibilities – but they’re not all the same, either. If an employee came to me to discuss why her co-worker makes more than she does, I’d explain why, and also share my concerns as to the future of that employee with my company if her main concern is what she makes relative to her co-worker.
I told him to dance.
Golf is so tied up in lies he is playing Twister.
Meaning if she complained about her wages, you’d be showing her the door. And I so hope she’d turn around and sue you.
You are a first class Jackass.
How long do you think you would retain “your employees” if there was a significant wage disparity?
Answer: About as long as it would take them to find a new job.
How long could you allow that situation to continue before it began to have an impact on the company’s performance and the ROI?
Clark,Did you not read that I had to replace 1 of 28 employees last year?
You’re busy changing the subject. Any smart business owner pays market wages. Otherwise, you have high turnover.
I also know very well that employees talk about their salaries – although I work with highly technical professionals who are far less petty than those on this board. They make a good salary and have opportunities to share in company profits.
You’re arguing apples and oranges.
Again.
Pee,Kansas is a right-to-work state. I can fire anyone anytime for no reason whatsoever.
Clark,I would never allow that to happen. Read above. I don’t personally research market wages, but I subscribe to a service that does.
And if it was shown that you lined your pockets by paying women lower, they WOULD win in court against you, right to work state or not, it’s a federal law that you cannot discriminate.
“Kansas is a right-to-work state. I can fire anyone anytime for no reason whatsoever.”
Wrong.
That is just not true – more proof that you don’t really own a business.
Kansas is a right-to-work state, but firing someone for reasons based on discrimination is still illegal.
You cannot just fire someone without repercussions.
FYI-I don’t measure ROI. I have two valuable metrics: EBITDA and cash.
Again, Clark, you’re comparing apples and oranges.
I CAN fire someone for no reason whatsoever. If you don’t believe that, you might want to contact a good employment attorney.
If the fired employee can prove I did so based on illegal discrimination (many discriminations are perfectly legal), then I’d certainly be liable.
But, I said “with no reason whatsoever” meaning, no illegal discrimination reason.
Are you this slow in the daylight hours, too?
Why would any company not measure ROI?
If you could earn more with an interest bearing savings account, why would you invest in a company?
Cash is a meaningless stat without a positive ROI.
Earnings before interest, etc, are similarly meaningless unless the ROI is also positive.
Cash on hand is probably the least valuable measure of a company’s health.
Without a positive ratio of expense v. income, then there is not much point of being in business, unless you are in a start up phase.
LOL his double talk. I’m going to bed, night.
Pee,Honestly, you’ve proven yourself to be a whiner of an employee who constantly plays the victim. I can’t imagine you having much success in your life – unless you change your philosophy.
Women work for lower wages because they will. It’s a fact.
Clark,I’m now completely certain that you have very little business experience.
“But, I said “with no reason whatsoever” meaning, no illegal discrimination reason.
Are you this slow in the daylight hours, too?”
You said that you could fire anyone with no reason whatsoever – you didn’t qualify your statement.
More proof that you do not know how to make a sensible statement like a true professional.
As for the personal insult – GFY.
You know, Nutz, a little Clearasil might work on that acne….
“Clark,I’m now completely certain that you have very little business experience.”
Based on what evidence, Nutz?
How do you think Wall Street measures a company’s worth?
Return On Investment.
What a fucking moron.
Here’s an example for you:
Sales: 100,000Expenses: 80,000Earnings: 20,000
You said: “positive ratio of expense v. income”… so you mean 80k/20k? or maybe you meant income v. expense? that would be 20/80.
Clark, neither of those ratios has meaning.
And please explain to me how you could possibly have earnings with a negative ROI?
ROI has zero to do with company valuation. Exactly ZERO.
Wall Street values companies different ways, but by far the most common is NPV – by using a discount rate to value all future earning streams in today’s dollars. Plus the current market value of all assets.
ROI measures performance compared to investment, not business valuation.
The acronym is Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization – not just earnings alone. It is completely possible to have a positive EDBIT and a negative ROI.
Short term, that would work, but it would be an unhealthy condition to sustain for any period of time. For one, your credit rating would drop like a stone if your ROI did not reflect a positive trend.
Investors do not invest in companies that do not show a positive return.
Neither do bankers that loan money for capital improvements.
Cash on hand is a manipulable statistic. EBIT can be manipulated also, but only for a short period of time.
ROI is the only true measure of a company’s earning capabilities.
“ROI has zero to do with company valuation. Exactly ZERO.”
As I said, why would anyone invest in a company if the return on investment was less than what could be gained through a simple savings account?
If I invest $500,000 in your company and my return was what would be the likelihood that i would want to invest another $500,000?
Zero.
“and my return was what”
that was to have been….
“and my return was (negative 10%)what”
WE Blog doesn’t like negative brackets….
EBITDA is a measure of operational execution. That’s why it’s an important metric. Why do you not get that?
And, if earnings can be manipulated, so can the ROI. After all, earnings are part of the ROI.
And here’s another one you said: “ROI is the only true measure of a company’s earning capabilities.”
Are you sure you mean “capability?”
Clark, ROI has nothing to do with earning capability. Zero. Zip. None. Nil. Nunca.
Holy Cow where do you come up with this?
You certainly haven’t addressed your earlier comment about expense v. income.
I’m patiently waiting.
“Net present value (NPV) is a standard method for financial evaluation of long-term projects.”
ROI – the here and now.
NPV – what I hope it will be.
ROI – take it to the bank……
“Holy Cow where do you come up with this?”
I already answered you, Nutz, and I will measure my business skills against your basement blog skills anytime.
BTW – Business asset value has nothing to do with earning capabilities – the value of land and machinery means nothing unless you intend to liquidate the business.
Like someone should liquidate “your business.”
Clark,WTF do you think an investment in a company is? WTF do you think business valuation is?
FINANCIAL VALUATION OF A LONG-TERM PROJECT.
Thank you.
“ROI – the here and now.”
I don’t think you know how to calculate an ROI, Clark.
“I don’t measure ROI. I have two valuable metrics: EBITDA and cash.”
quote – Golfnutz, business expert.
What the hell does it matter if you have a positive cash balance, a positive EBIT and a negative ROI?
How long do you think you would be in business with a negative ROI?
Basic business…..
ROI – actual performance.
NPV – projected performance.
March 2003 – Iraqi Freedom.
December 2006 – what the hell do we do now?
Umm, Clark…do you realize what you just said? You might want to rethink.
Like I said, you likely have no idea how to calculate an ROI.
You said “ROI is the only true measure of a company’s earning capabilities”
Then you said “Business asset value has nothing to do with earning capabilities”
You probably don’t realize that ROI uses asset value as part of its calculation. In fact, the most simple explanation of ROI is earnings compared to assets.
Now, you’ve said that the value of the assets mean nothing to a company’s capability, but ROI is everything. So, the only thing remaning is earnings.
Isn’t that what I said in the beginning? Earnings? I use EBITDA because interest, tax, depreciation and amortization only cloud the issue when measuring operational execution.
Oh yeah – cash. You said “Cash on hand is probably the least valuable measure of a company’s health”
I can have the greatest month in the history of mankind – record sales, record deliveries, record revenue, all kinds of stuff that makes for a very healthy ROI – but if it’s all on AR, then I’ll have very little sympathy from my employees and vendors when I can’t pay them.
The three most valuable words in business: Cash Is King.
You’re welcome. You got a free short-course in finance tonight.
“You’re welcome. You got a free short-course in finance tonight.”
The day I need any help from you on anything and the day I thank you for anything will be the same day that Bush II gets invited to a Sunni-Shi’ite Celebration of the Invasion of Iraq – in Baghdad.
BTW – Cash is the most easily manipulated financial metrc – just don’t pay your creditors until the first of next month instead of the last of this month.
Major companies do it every month to manipulate their end-of-month reporting.
“You probably don’t realize that ROI uses asset value as part of its calculation. In fact, the most simple explanation of ROI is earnings compared to assets.”
I know how to calculate ROI, I know how to manipulate financial stats if necessary and I know the true value of assets as they relate to ROI.
Like all other business metrics, ROI can be manipulated.
I would LOVE to continue this “debate” but I have to get up early in the morning.
I hope your banker enjoys your disdain for ROI……
BTW – Nutz Boy – you trash me for not “answering” your questions, but, in reading back, I notice that you have yet to answer any of mine.
So WTF – to use your ancronym.
Clark,You’re implying that any business owner can manipulate the books to say whatever he wants. I don’t disagree, but if anyone else has an interest in the business, he’ll have an independent auditor perform due diligence. And, just like my earlier comment about right-to-work, honesty is assumed.
Secondly, your little exposé on cash. If I have a $5000 bill to a supplier due on the 30th, and I wait to pay it until the 1st in an effort to show a stronger financial position on my EOM financial statements…the net effect of that “manipulation” is zero. Do you not understand balance sheet accounting?
Third, I submit to you that it’s very unlikely (but not impossible) to have positive earnings and a negative ROI. I don’t use ROI because it’s not relevant. I’ve submitted multiple business plans to my banker, and none of them has ever included an ROI analysis. I have strategic plans, marketing plans, in-depth market research, current balance sheet, last 3 years income statements, projected income statements and balance sheet. No IRR or ROI. Ever. It’s not relevant.
You said ROI was the “here and now” – that’s just false. By definition, an ROI analysis takes into account multiple streams of cash/earnings in the future. That’s the whole purpose of a “return” it’s a rate. An interest rate. And, by definition, interest is the value of money over time.
So how can ROI be in the here and now?
Look, the ROI can be a valuable tool for certain applications. If I were to consider buying a machine, and that machine would generate cash flow in some form over time, THEN and IRR or ROI analysis would be appropriate.
Or even if I have the opportunity to buy a business for a set price, and I know that I can generate cash flows from that business in the future. Then the comparison of the cash flows with the investment in the businss would be a handy piece of analysis. THAT would be an ROI.
But, an ROI is measured in percent, and a business is measured in dollars. No business is valued via an ROI.
What’s a justifiable price for stock in a company? Simple: the NPV of all the future cash flows plus the net equity in the company. Divided by the outstanding number of shares. If that comes out to be $20/share and the stock is currently trading at $15, then it’s probably a good buy. However, ultimately, the price of stock is determined by supply and demand. But I digress…
To answer any outstanding questions that I see, Clark:
Yes, companies can survive with negative ROIs. Some for a long long time.
And people invest in companies with ROIs below money market rates all the time. It’s called speculation.
I don’t see where I didn’t answer anything else other than rhetorical questions. Now, kindly defend your expense v. income statement and explain how asset valuation has no impact on ROI. Please don’t give me the mumbo jumbo about manipulation. Remember: honesty is assumed.
Asking Republicans for equality reminds me of an old joke, where the guy with only one good arm, implores the God to make his arms the same. He gets his wish, and has two bad arms!
steve-If you had a day job, I’d tell you to keep it.
I gotta go wee….
WEEEEEEEEE!!!
Well, don’t you find it interesting that the republicons are the only ones who defend paying women less?
I’m not surprised. Hopefully any republican women will be though.
I don’t ever recall anyone defending paying women less. That is fundamentally unfair.Who is this republicon that you speak of?
The post from 6:11 is not mine, although it is kind of funny.
yes, who on this board suggested that it’s ok to pay women less than men – ceteris paribus?
Good grief, don’t we pay women enough as it is? How many of you married men, or those in the throes of romance, find your wallet depleted by a considerable amount at the end of each week? And the main suspect in that litening? Why, none other than a woman, I would bet. Glass ceiling? Can we make it a titanium ceiling? . . . he said sarcasdickly:-)
Gone are the good ol’ days when the wife could stay home and raise the kids, and the husband earn enough to support the family. That transformation took place under Reagan.
I completely disagree. I know many families with stay-home moms. Families of a variety of income levels, too. It’s all about making choices.
Politicians don’t care about your individual welfare. They just want you to vote for an ideal that is completely out of touch with the average American’s life. If the hardcore capitalists or the socialists can’t get this, then they are truly ignorant of American politics.
For most families it would be the choice of living in austerity, or have two income earners to pay for lifes necessities.