Paraphrasing part of one of your posts above, you indicated that what NEMHS is doing wouldn’t work for the majority of students in the district. I have kind of figured out that apparently that is true not only in 259 but also in the myriad districts that have, in my experience, sent folks to NEM to see what it is which is going on and if it may be replicated. Should it be replicable? (I have more to ask, but will defer until later).

I agree with something else you said; m/c tests are an abomination insofar as assessing what students know. I am sympathetic to you in the time it takes to properly grade non M/C tests, and submit the grades for end of term processing within the period allowed therefor. Yes, there are issues concerning the possibility of subjective grading thereof, but those may be overcome, I am sure.

Also, I am not against public education; far from it. There are things I perceive as happening within the realm of public education that I believe can be changed for the better.

One thing that has bothered me during my involvement with 259 is the number of “magic bullet” changes that are proposed, partially implemented, and then abandoned when state assessment scores do not suddenly increase the next time. Not enough time is allowed to see if the changes, in fact, work. IIRC, every change that has been proposed and adopted has come with a body of data showing the efficacy thereof in places where implemented. Something that has always, to me, been ignored is that the improvements attributed to these new programs have taken place over time; thus, when there is no immediate result, off to another. This has to be frustrating to the classroom teachers.

As for apophis: now if you disagree with him you hate america. Kind of reminds me of Connie’s saying we fear her. Arrogant or idiot. I rest my case.

I also love how this thread is progressing. Granted, it started out as the ongoing Apophis-heartlander dual as JR aptly pointed out, but it has forced a number of you to show your true colors! Your open disdain for “by the people, FOR the people” is sickening. It’s too bad that you hate our country so much that you would sacrifice one of our founding principles to satisfy you own personal greed. You probably call yourselves Christians too. Shame on you!

Doc, you said something I don’t think is quite accurate: “you can’t achieve leadership positions in applied science and technological fields without strong teaching skills”. Two thoughts on this. First, there is an alternative licensure process by which these individuals can actually teach in the classroom if they so choose. Will they forfeit the salary they can earn elsewhere to teach in the public system because they sure aren’t going to be making much more than a regularly licensed educator. Second, I think you confuse the ability to educate adults in a post secondary setting with the pedagogical process of teaching our youth. It’s a whole different animal.

Before I head off to work to start a 16 hour plus day, I need for you to know heartlander that I hate M/C tests. They give me little in the way of useful data about what my students know. I rely more on performance assessments and written examinations. The problem there is the perceived subjectivity of grading and the time it takes to process 130+ pieces of student work each time.

Apophis pointed out that subject expertise and teaching ability are not the same thing. In actuality, you can’t achieve leadership positions in applied science and technological fields without strong teaching skills. Moreover, the types of people who would relish giving a shot at school teaching would be those who have these skills. For the occasional incompetent entrant, performance monitoring would weed him or her out.

Instead of viewing outsiders as interlopers, you should see them as a valuable resource. If they help you to shoulder a load, and this reduces your class sizes and/or numbers of daily classes, so that you can spend more time engaging with individual students, and devising and running really cool science projects. They can get you material resources, and perhaps set up summer internships for students.

They can help you get more funding for education.

They can help you disband machine-scored multiple-choice high-stakes testing.

With better teaching conditions you will retain more young teachers, and probably convince many more older teachers to stay longer. “I’m 62, and can retire, but why would I want to? I’m doing what I love.”

My experience has been that government has protected me against those who have used (employed) me. Government has guaranteed me rights, safe working conditions, a minimum wage and protection against capricious emloyers. My emplyers have shown me the back of their hand. I can elect or un-elect government. Before I struck out on my own I was not at liberty to fire the boss.

Apophis seems obsessed with one issue and a Quixotic battle against heartlander and anyone who would dare question Apophis. He is close minded to any but his own ideas.

That’s called meglomania.

J M?

You said this:

“What we do is level the playing field by bringing the rest of the third-world countries up to our level.”

We TRIED that. It was called NAFTA. Your own words show why that very noble idea failed.

“Sure there will be abuse; there is in any endeavor. Something called human nature and assholes getting together to subvert the system.”

It is as I said a noble idea to elevate those of the rest of the world. I wish it were so easy as you think.

With NAFTA as an example, we see that their are dark and greedy forces in America that are all to eagerly embraced by corrupt foreign governments.

I want to help those folks. Truly I do. But we cannot save them by descending to their standards. We have to save America first.

Posted by: J R | December 17, 2006 at 09:22 PM

Yes because the Government has never done such a thing. (Sarcasm)

Wow, I guess not in terms you can understand. I really don’t know how I can simplify it, other than doing so in monosylabic form.

JR, you ask how we can teach ourselves out of globalization. I say we can’t and shouldn’t. What we do is level the playing field by bringing the rest of the third-world countries up to our level. And that, my friend, is what changing the face of education is all about.

Such as they would then be free to extort, and exploit and enslave at will. No thanks.

The lessone we learn from you: Why we need an end to public education.

And, CapnAmerikkka, and end to social security would also be wise! How miserable and humiliating it is to be forced to buy and support a government-mandated retirement plan! It’s almost as bad as government schools.

Is there no area of life that we as individuals cannot manage ourselves? Must we be schooled by government, accept government retirement planning, and now, possibly, rely on government for healthcare? Where is our dignity as individuals?

Brenda Shull, go up thread and read the posts of those who attack public education. They all seem to have their favorite bashing tool. JM Walker’s favorite now seems to be that we (educators) are unaware of globalization. We are, we just have to put the whole thing in perspective. Walker offers no viable ideas.

JR, that is a wide open question that has no single answer. I reject the ideas of the anti-education thugs. They think the answer is to destroy public education. THEY are the terrorists we need to be concerned with right now.

How do you educate a way to ensure the survival of the American standard of living?

Where is your car made? In the states? Canada? Maybe assembled here, but you better have both standard and metric tools to work on it. Buy anything made in the USA lately? Had to look to do so, didn’t you? Have any investments? 401K’s? Probably more than one foreign stock in the mix. Where was the peach you ate grown? More than likely south america, mexico. That steak you ate? Could be Argentinia.

Protectionism, isolationism, racism, whatever, they’re dead horses. They are good only in the minds of those who are afraid to see the big picture.

For example: How did Bush go wrong with his failed foreign policy, especially concerning terrorism? He failed to see that it is a world problem, and as such, needs the input and cooporation of ALL nations, not the invasion of some tinpot dictators country. That’s where globalization comes into play.

Sure there will be abuse; there is in any endeavor. Something called human nature and assholes getting together to subvert the system. But if it is recognized for what it is, than the leaders of ALL countries can do things to change the status quo. The United Nations has a chance to do that, but many changes need to take place there as well.

Not a perfect system, but the right people can make it work. Globalization is here and will stay her, so get used to it, or sell you computer and give up the internet.

Apophis, I am sad to say, you’re still an idiot.

We are doing a good job and we get NO credit.

I will never back down to the anti-public education cartel. I will expose them for what they are. If that offends you JR, well that’s life.

CapnAmerica, I agree with you totally. This is all about money. The right wants all of the money in the world. They act as if it is their right.

But the many brilliant and noteworthy minds, Presidents Clinton, Reagan, Carter, bazillionaire Warren Buffet, or Nobel prize winners who graduated from public school don’t mean that “anybody can acheive” in our school system.

No, despite the obvious statistical fact that there’s much more equality in academics than there is in the so-called free market (people born poor rarely become rich, although many poor people become successful because of school), it’s not our economic system that’s a failure.

Oh, my, no!

It’s the public schools of course . . .

The people who hate public schools are the same people who hate anything with the word “public” in front of it–public library, public park, or public pension (social security).

Sort of explains the first thing I said doesn’t it?

I’m sorry apophis. But my take is you are sitting on a pretty tall horse. You also seem to need a lot of invective to make your points.Note how J M and I disagree without the venom.

Imagine….J R peacebroker!

Hey I can brawl with the best of them but we are SUPPOSED to be trying to address and improve education. This requires working together with ALL who are trying to save public education. That includes J M.

Apophis if you can’t learn to tolerate the suggestions of folks who are NOT your enemy? The “n”s of the world are going to win and bust education in the thousand pieces that they want to.

J M. I have to tell you, I am not optimistic for the future of my son, myself, or my country if the stampede toward globalization continues. You can name any skill or profession and I can find you a country that will do it cheaper and with less rights and protections for workers and the environment. Education of any sort can not help with this.

Protectionism—-from the root word protect. As in protecting our way of life.

Isolationism—–Well what does one isolate themself from? Why from harmful or dangerous or unpleasant things. Like a massive third world work force that will engulf the American worker and drag him down to its level.

This is not the right place for this discussion. But unlike Apophis, I am interested in your opinion. How is it we can teach our way out of this? And I do not mean learning to speak the language of foreign masters. What can we teach kids that maintains the American standard of living?

What the hell does this mean: “Apophis is just a bit to provincial and protectionist for my liking”? You got it correct in the next sentence though: “BUT that is undoubtedly the result of knowing that many who advocate improving public education actually want to kill it”.

I am providing a parent’s perspective as well. I have three children who were provided with a great educational experience here in Wichita. All three had the proper educational preparation prior to kindergarten thanks to the tireless hours my wife and I put in doing quality things with them. We have never had a video game in our house and actually going to the library has been a family activity. There success or failure would not be the fault of the education system. We, as parents hold the ultimate responsibility for our children.

JMWalker………your cry of “globalization” is analogous to bush/cheney using the word “terrorist and/or terrorism” is speeches around the time of an election. “Globalization” is just your current bogeyman. Do you think current educators don’t realize the expanding global economy? You are dismissed out of hand because of the radical nature of your suggestions, just like heartlander. Your ideas have very little research to support validity.

There are many things about globalization I do not agree with, but I have to qualms about voicing them, and trying to get people into positions where changes to the better can be put in place.

I like most of what you write about, but on this point, we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and on my end, I can see where and why you are wrong in both your belief it can be ended, and in your belief you need to segregate yourself from the effects. It can’t be stopped, and you can’t divorce yourself from it.

I’m not saying embrace it, but I am saying use it to your advantage, and especially your sons advantage. He WILL need to if he wants to succeed in the future. And, as a father, I suspect you hope he will succeed in whatever he chooses. As a father myself, I certainly hope he does.

Obviously you have never given serious thought to any of my suggestions, or the above would not have been your answer. I have never, and will never, called for an end to public education. You have lumped me in that group more than once. It doesn’t take an education to know that if one doesn’t call for an end to public education, one doesn’t belong in that group.

I have given serious suggestions regarding PUBLIC education, and all have been positive, and all have had the education of the children at the base point. For yo to call ALL of them “asinine” leads me to believe you are so closed minded that serious discussion is beyond your ability. Your last post certainly does nothing to prove me wrong.

When you can dissect my suggestions in an intelligent way, feel free to do so. If your answer remains “YOUR changes are asinine”, than an intelligent discussion with you is impossible, as it is obviously beyond you to do so.

One parents assesment?

Apophis is just a bit to provincial and protectionist for my liking. BUT that is undoubtedly the result of knowing that many who advocate improving public education actually want to kill it. For an example see the post of “n”.

J M Walker has good ideas but as I have said I think he is trying to address an outcome that need not be. That being America embracing globalism. I know of nothing this country cannot make or invent on its own. Let’s teach the kids to do that and make sure they have the chance to do that instead of competing with the third world.

heartlander has positively wonderful ideas. But his has been a position of priveledge and this has colored his perspective. Homeschooling and educational vacations are just not doable for the average family. The ideas he has would also work well in the one room schoolhouse of the past. But that is just not the reality now. I suppose if you wanted to put a school on every other corner his interacrtive ideas might be practical.