Wichita lighted its Christmas tree last week on Kennedy Plaza in front of Century II without any shots being fired in the so-called “war on Christmas,” thank goodness. After being criticized in 2004 for calling it “the community tree,” city officials since have been calling a Christmas tree a Christmas tree. The dropping of pretense made sense, given that Wichita’s municipal Christmas tree tradition dates back to 1914.
So far in 2006, the worst flap of this kind may be at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, where a rabbi’s request that a menorah be displayed along with 14 Christmas trees prompted airport officials not to add the menorah but to take down the trees. The airport’s trees — plastic trees — are back in place, the rabbi having assured officials that he would not sue. “A key element in moving forward will be to work with the rabbi and other members of the community to develop a plan for next year’s holiday decorations at the airport,” said a statement released by the Port of Seattle.
Sounds like a plan. What’s sad is when these clashes over what symbols and words to use to celebrate the season end up tainting the season itself.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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130 Comments
Much ado about nothing. People should be able to display their Saturnalia trees without any interference.
“Saturnalia trees.” Ben Huie, yer killin’ me, ah tell you what…
This would be a good time for someone to develop a live menorah tree, and hopefully put an end to this nonsense!
I’m offended by offended people. Can we get rid of them? Or maybe just some duct tape?
You know, if you celebrate Christmas in the traditional way you’d get arrested. Do people really believe that a Turkish priest traveled around on a sleigh with reindeer, in Turkey? Do they seriously believe their Jesus was born in the winter when shephards stayed outside with their flocks?
Holly, mistletoe, solstice, yule logs, trees, gift giving, none of this has anything to do with Christianity. So if there really is a war on Christmas it’s being fought by the Christians to destroy ancient traditions. Of course that would interfere with their perception that they are being persecuted so they invent this silly ‘War on Christmas’ to give themselves something to whine about. And they are the only ones consuming the traditional hallucinagenic mushrooms.
I agree, KIA–let’s start with Bill O’Reilly, and his 100% phony “War on Christmas.”
I CAN NOT BELIEVE THIS IS HAPPENING IN THIS FREE COUNTRY. IT”S GOT TO STOP.JUST PUT UP BOTH.WHY IS IT SO DIFFCULT ?
THANK YOU
This is a very bad analogy, but doesn’t this sort of bring to mind the Sunni/Shia madness? On a far lesser scale.
There seems to be some confusion here. Christmas trees come to us via the original pagan holiday, as Ben notes. But I don’t know anyone who treats them as a religious symbol these days.
A menorah is a different matter. Sorry, but the rabbi had no right to demand that the government promote his religion. What a putz.
Gster you’re right - it doesn’t take much of a little religious difference to get hatred started.
I’m not Jewish but isn’t the menorah just used for Hannukah? So why wouldn’t this be the Jewish equivalent for a Christmas tree?
Interesting point. Erik, CF, care to comment?
Rabbi: Hey, how about a menorah around here, with all these Christmas trees?Airport Officials: Whaaaaa? holey, moley, we don’t have one, we better take down all the Christmas trees in case we get sued.Rabbi: I ain’t suing nobody, next time, pick up a menorah somewhere and stick it up too. Gee Whiz!
somebody put the rabbi out of his misery its a xmas tree no religon here as with his thinking some people are just idiots or they want there 15 min .of fame rabbi go save some one who really needs saving!! like your mama
Are we talking about a menorah or a Chanukkiyah?
sunny - I think the difference is that we have secularized the tree from its original Pagan roots and made it a sort of generic seasonal tree. That said, I see absolutely nothing wrong with e Menorah.
Isn’t there also a Driedel or something that kids play with?
Come on people, the Rabbi wasnt being at all agressive. “Hey can we add a Menorah here too?” He said that he wasnt looking to sue but rather just to feel like his holiday religious celbrations were as honored as our own.
And anyways if Christmas is Christian, which comes from Judism then why dont we celebrate the miricle of the oil at the rededication of the temple?
I have a mezuza on one side of the house, a menorah on the other and a christmas tree in the middle.
The question is what really is the power and weight behind symbols? Is it the symbols themselves or the beliefs that inspired the symbols in the first place
Norm, rabbis don’t go around saving people, thats not thier job. And in my neighborhood, you start talkin about somebody’s momma, you could get in a world of hurt. I don’t think that that rabbi comes from my neighborhood, so it looks like youre safe.
A Christmas tree celebrates the commercialism of the season. Christ was born in the spring, but his birthday is celebrated in winter.
Today’s Christianity is based on Roman politics. As the Christians grew in number and strength, they didn’t want to deal with another sect/religion. They joined the pagan religion with Christianity. Sunday is not the Holy day. Saturday is. SUN day was holy for the SUN worshipers. Same goes for Easter and its traditions. Winter solstice became Christmas and represented Christ’s birth.
It’s a damn Christmas tree, not a cross. Get over it.
The actually was a war on Christmas in America. Christmas was considered a British holiday and after gaining independence America was still pretty anti-British. So for 60 years Congress never let out for the Christmas holiday. So it was those nasty founders of our nation that waged a war against Christmas and we all know how anti-American and anti-Christian they are.
AT - whats a mezuza?
A T,He threatened a law suit
Ben, thanks for the point about Saturnalia.
More about history, traditional “bad luck” if tree put up before Christmas Eve, gimmicks, name and usage controversies, etc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_Tree
Don’t we all celebrate Christmas in a different way? Why can’t there be all versions of a Christmas celebration? I just don’t get this being a big problem.
I remember my childhood in Illinois, our town had an Evergreen tree in the center of town. It was decorated and the entire town went out at Christmas time and sang carols. Nobody yelled discrimination. Nobody yelled they were going to sue the town. We were not all Christians but we were all respectful of one another. Is this the real problem here? Today’s society has lost the respect for others?
In strictly legal terms, the Supreme Court long ago declared that you could have different holiday symbols associated with religions provided, essentially, that you weren’t excluding people, and it wasn’t entirely religious in nature.
If the Rabbi asked nicely and they ignored him, AT may have a point.
norm,”somebody put the rabbi out of his misery…”
norm really has a excellent Christian mindset. /sarcasm
As a non-Christian, I have no objection to Christmas trees or any Christian symbols of the holiday being displayed. It would be nice if Christians would also be respectful of other religions and spiritual groups during the winter season and throughout the year by allowing them to display their own holiday symbols.
That said, the following is from religioustolerance.com:
Overview:Some have traced the Christmas tree back at least as far as the Prophet Jeremiah who wrote the book Jeremiah in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). Opposition to the Christmas tree was strong in past centuries. The early Christian Church in the third century strictly prohibited the decoration of their houses with evergreen boughs. The decorated Christmas tree only caught on in the mid-19th century. Modern-day opposition continues: some condemn the Christmas tree because they believe it to be a Christian symbol; others condemn it because they believe — incorrectly — that the custom of cutting down a tree, erecting it in the home and decorating it is a Pagan custom. For many people today, it is primarily as a secular symbol of hope for the New Year and the future return of warmth to the earth. Its future is assured in spite of opposition.
Objections to the Christmas Tree:In the past, there have been many objections to Christmas trees:
The Prophet Jeremiah condemned as Pagan the ancient Middle Eastern practice of cutting down trees, bringing them into the home and decorating them. Of course, these were not really Christmas trees, because Jesus was not born until centuries later, and the use of Christmas trees was not introduced for many centuries after his birth. Apparently, in Jeremiah’s time the “heathen” would cut down trees, carve or decorate them in the form of a god or goddess, and overlay it with precious metals. Some Christians feel that this Pagan practice was similar enough to our present use of Christmas trees that this passage from Jeremiah can be used to condemn both:
Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.” (KJV).
In Europe, Pagans in the past did not cut down evergreen trees, bring them into their homes and decorate them. That would have been far too destructive of nature. But during the Roman celebration of the feast of Saturnalia, Pagans did decorate their houses with clippings of evergreen shrubs. They also decorated living trees with bits of metal and replicas of their God, Bacchus. Tertullian (circa 160 - 230), an early Christian leader and a prolific writer, complained that too many fellow-Christians had copied the Pagan practice of adorning their houses with lamps and with wreathes of laurel at Christmas time. 8,9,10,11The English Puritans condemned a number of customs associated with Christmas, such as the use of the Yule log, holly, mistletoe, etc. Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” 2,4In America, the Pilgrim’s second governor, William Bradford, a Puritan, tried hard to stamp out all “pagan mockery” at Christmas time. 4 Christmas trees were not used by Puritans in colonial times. However, if they were, they would certainly have been forbidden.In 1851, Pastor Henry Schwan of Cleveland OH appears to have been the person responsible for decorating the first Christmas tree in an American church. His parishioners condemned the idea as a Pagan practice; some even threatened the pastor with harm. But objections soon dissipated. 2
Even today, the complaints continue:
At Christmas 2000, the city manager of Eugene OR ordered that Christmas trees could not be erected on city properties because he considered them Christian religious symbols. He felt that their presence would violate the principle of church and state. 1 This is just one of countless conflicts that have surfaced at Christmas time over religious and quasi-religious observances.Some Fundamentalist Christian groups oppose Christmas trees and even the celebration of Christmas for their members. This includes the Jehovah’s Witnesses and, until recently, the Worldwide Church of God. Part of the opposition is because the custom of decorated trees originated in Paganism. They also oppose trees because of a literal interpretation of the quotation from Jeremiah.
More from Christmas Trees at religioustolerance.org (Sorry, the above link should’ve been .org. Bad habit.)
Pagan traditions: Many Pagan cultures used to cut boughs of evergreen trees in December, move them into the home or temple, and decorate them. 7 Modern-day Pagans still do. This was to recognize the winter solstice — the time of the year that had the shortest daylight hours, and longest night of the year. This occurs annually sometime between DEC-20 to 23. They noticed that the days were gradually getting shorter; many feared that the sun would eventually disappear forever, and everyone would freeze. But, even though deciduous trees, bushes, and crops died or hibernated for the winter, the evergreen trees remained green. They seemed to have magical powers that enabled them to withstand the rigors of winter. Not having evergreen trees, the ancient Egyptians considered the palm tree to symbolize resurrection. They decorated their homes with its branches during the winter solstice. 3″The first decorating of an evergreen tree began with the heathen Greeks and their worship of their god Adonia, who allegedly was brought back to life by the serpent Aessulapius after having been slain.” 5The ancient Pagan Romans decorated their “trees with bits of metal and replicas of their god, Bacchus [a fertility god]. They also placed 12 candles on the tree in honor of their sun god” 2 Their mid-winter festival of Saturnalia started on DEC-17 and often lasted until a few days after the Solstice.In Northern Europe, the ancient Germanic people tied fruit and attached candles to evergreen tree branches, in honor of their god Woden. Trees were viewed as symbolizing eternal life. This is the deity after which Wednesday was named. The trees joined holly, mistletoe, the wassail bowl and the Yule log as symbols of the season. All predated Christianity. 5Christmas traditions: One Christmas tradition was that St. Boniface (675? - 755; a.k.a. Winfred) cut down a deciduous tree in the presence of some newly-baptized Christians. The tree was an oak — once sacred to the former Pagans. It miraculously split into four pieces, revealing an evergreen tree growing from the center of the oak stump. This symbolized the death of Paganism and the establishment of Christianity. 3Another is that Martin Luther (1483 - 1546) was so impressed by a forest scene that he allegedly cut down a small fir tree, took it home, and decorated it with lighted candles. This is probably a myth, because the earliest documented record of a Christmas tree in Germany is dated to almost 60 years after his death.History of the Christmas Tree:The Christmas tree tradition dates back to Western Germany in the 16th century. They were called “Paradeisbaum” (paradise trees) and were brought into homes to celebrate the annual Feast of Adam and Eve on DEC-24. 4 They were first brought to America by German immigrants about 1700. Christmas trees became popular among the general population about 1850. 2
President Franklin Pierce (1804-1869) arranged to have the first Christmas tree in the White House, during the mid-1850’s. President Calvin Coolidge (1885-1933) started the National Christmas Tree Lighting Ceremony on the White House lawn in 1923. 4
Today, the Christmas Tree has become accepted by Christians, by people of other faiths, and for those who do not follow an organized religion. It has become a popular late-December tradition and part of our present-day culture. As Gail Quick, University of South Carolina - Beaufort’s dean of university relations, commented on the occasion of a community tree-lighting ceremony.: “This Christmas event every year is the glue that holds this community together - this and the July 4th fireworks. This always makes me feel good. Some of us still believe in Santa Claus.” 6
(References used are cited at the link.)
Is the tree in the park (Riverside?) not lit anymore? I remember singing at the lighting as a Brownie and Girl Scout, and taking my own kids to do the same.
So there you have it. The tree celibrates the season, not religion. Everyone can take their panties from their cracks now.
I somehow doubt that, in this majority-Christian nation (with a sizable minority of Christian supremacists), holiday celebrations can or will be used to somehow foist Judaism on people. But this was an interesting comment:
“Although some irate people criticized Jews in general for the actions of Bogomilsky, ‘most of the Jewish community does not really support the putting up of public menorahs,’ said Rabbi Anson Laytner, executive director of the greater Seattle chapter of the American Jewish Committee.
‘It does raise, in spite of the Supreme Court ruling (allowing public displays of the Jewish candelabrum), significant church/ state issues in our minds,’ he said. ‘And in this case, it became a lightning rod for hostilities that otherwise would not be brought to the surface.’
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/295604_trees12.html
Ihe relevant distinction is whether or not some government endorsement is implied.
Lotsa nice TRUE history here.
RD I promise to go back later and read all that cause it does look informative.
Right now I gotta go finish puttin up our polyvinylcloride Saturnalia tannenbaum.
It really is more of an issue on what is displayed inside of a building that is payed by taxpayers.
There are a lot of nationalities that come through that airport. And a lot of religions that celebrate this month.
So put a tribute to them all.
All or none. At least we know the pagans are well represented.
I see no problem with accomodating the rabbi by the way. Of course, it would only be fair to accomodate all religions.
I think at our house we will call it a Santa tree!
More? Since the connection to Christ is illegitimate. I think I will now call it chrismas.
pmom, I’m working on that wreath.
Remember roxanne, you have to use a four-pointed star for me. Like the points of a compass …
HEHE coolies Roxanne
I’m Jewish. This is much ado about nothing. I can’t believe it is even news … but then again, look who wrote it! Rhonda, get a life!
At the risk of getting struck by lightning, amen to that!
A Christmas Tree isn’t a religous symbol. It’s just a secular tradition and custom that happens to coincide with the Christmas Holiday.
Although it has roots in pegan culture from before Christanity ever took place in Europe, it’s nothing more than commericalization of a holiday of no religous significance anymore, if ever.
It is all pretty sad. Christianity being attacked, even though the Christmas tree doesn’t come from Christianity.
Most religions recognize Jesus in one way or another.
More Merchant - how is Christianity being attacked? Are they going to shut down Midnight Mass Christmas Eve? I doubt it.
rm, Eric - happy Hannucah. Others - Merry Christmas.
People who get offended by this Christmas shit and the morons who react to it and change their shit to please everyone is offensive.
Christmas = Christ Mass
If your not attending the Midnight Mass on Christmas eve, you’re not really celebrating Christmas.
Let that be a lesson to all the Protestants- Will thinks you’re not real Christians heh.
What do they do on Christ Mass Will? Will you show me in the bible where it says to celebrate Christmas and how to do it like a good Christian?
Peemom,No, they’re not.
Waiting for the answer to the second question Will.
Look, there’s nothing sacred about a wreath, a christmas tree, gift-giving, carolling, to me that’s just as secular as making snowmen. Why people like Bill Oreilly make a big deal about clerks saying happy holidays instead of merry christmas is pointless. The only reason the Protestant majority decorates anything is because it is a secular tradition handed down from generation to generation. You won’t find a pine tree in my living room, you wont find a wreath on my door, you wont see me walking around singing songs like life is so fucking great and i dont have a care in the world. All of these things have absolutely nothing to do with the Christian religion, and in my opinion is simply not worth the time and effort to put all that shit up and clean it all up after New Years!
So (if you’re Christian)Merry Fucking Christmas
and if you’re something else…Happy Fucking Holidays
Excuse me while I take a piss.
Thanks for proving my point. That CHRISTIANITY AND CHRIST MASS EQUALS NOT A SHIT ABOUT CHRISTMAS!
None of it is in the bible. Not even Midnight Mass on Christmas!
So for you to say they’re fake christians…pot, meet kettle. Cause you are too!
Christmas isn’t about trees and merchandise, idiot.
Christmas in America means absolutely nothing! Frankly, All this bullshit with decorating stores and streets is just a marketing schtick. In my opinion it should all be done away with! All the confusion about Christmas with idiots like BillOreilly (and apparently Political Mom) is caused by the idea that for Christmas to truly be Christmas, you have to go around singing cutesy songs all day and sit around a fucking fireplace drinking egg nog! When will we be delivered from these idiots?
Bah Humbug to you, too, Will.
No Will you goober, you apparently just missed the point, or you got it and are trying to move it off point.
There is NOTHING christian about Christmas at all, nothing jesusy, nothing holy, nothing biblical. nada nada nada.
Christmas is PAGAN. You’re right, Christans should just stop claiming it as a holiday.
Face it, the only reason Christmas is embraced with open arms in this country is because we are a capitalist society. What of the other Christian holidays? How do they fare? Is Easter as enthusiastically promoted in the secular society as Christmas? Of course not! You can’t make money on Easter! It’s not worth the effort. Look at the fucking hypocrisy of these so-called “Christians” who act all good-natured and cheerful and full of the “Holiday Spirit” (whatever the hell that is!) on December 25th, but act like complete assholes to each other on the rest of the 364 days of the year!
Fucking hypocrisy!
I dunno. . . Wal-mas just doesn’t have the same ring.
“Christmas = Christ Mass
If your not attending the Midnight Mass on Christmas eve, you’re not really celebrating Christmas. ”
Defend this statement with scripture Will.
Easter isn’t even in the bible either.
Repeat after me Will, before you melt down completely yet again.
Easter and Christmas are not Christian holidays. Easter and Christmas are not Christian holidays….
Passover, is a TRUE Christian holiday. There ya go.
Find Lent for me too.
Peemom,No. Celebrating the Incarnation. You can argue that HOW the holiday you know as Christmas is celebrated is of pagan origin, but not the concept of celebrating the Incarnation. That concept is of the Church Fathers, the only authoritative voice in Christian history that matters. But as for the posers who pretend to be good Christians on one day of the year while being a complete asshole the rest of the year, well I’m with you that those idiots shouldnt even bother. But hey, tradition is important to people. Good luck with that!
If your not attending the Midnight Mass on Christmas eve, you’re not really celebrating Christmas. ”
That’s right! Celebrating the Incarnation through worship is of Christian origin, (i.e. it was a Christian brainchild)
The church fathers? How about scripture?
Isn’t that what matters more than what an old pope decided?
Scripturally, there is no basis.
Find Christmas in the Bible? Have you even read the synoptic Gospels? I believe you will find the Incarnation there. And Easter is not a Christian holiday? So you dont find the Suffering Death and Ressurection in the New Testament?
You said you were raised as a Jehovah’s Witness, what exactly did they fill your head with?
Well, they showed me how stupid and phoney religion was. Critical thinking and research of religion that brought me to discounting theirs as well.
What on earth are the synoptic gospels? Something that Catholics came up with to twist the bible even more?
The one thing JW’s taught me, the only thing commanded in the bible to do in rememberence was passover.
By the way, who are the assholes all year around you keep refering to. I’m not a Christian, so I know you’re not referring to me.
For some reason, PeeMom thinks that the Bible is the only Christian reference document. That’s just not true.
In fact, much of Christian sacrament and celebration is not documented anywhere. It’s tradition. Much of ANY organized religion (or other organization - i.e. masons) have deeply meaningful rites that are based on tradition.
This hatred of Christmas by secular progressives (i.e. PeeMom) is all part of their agenda to get Christianity and spirituality and Judaism out of the public square. Because if you look at what happened in Western Europe and Canada, if you can get religion out, then you can pass secular progressive programs, like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will, gay marriage, because the objection to those things is generally religious-based.
You have France - or Holland, you have legalized prostitution, you have drugs. All those things come in which religious organizations tend to oppose.
Forget it, there is not enough space or time to go into detail here.
Peemom,Passover is the only real Christian holiday? I have never heard anyone say that. That by itself is ridiculous. But what do you care about the Bible since you apparently dont believe in it?
Oh well as long as it’s tradition.
Even if the history of where that ‘tradition’ came from is questionable.
The bible SHOULD be the only reference Christians follow. But hey, I’m not a Christian anymore. I just like pointing out the hypocricy.
I could point out hypocricy on the JW’s too if you’d like.
And you’re right, there is no reason why someone’s religion should dictate those things you mentioned. It should be based on factual information rather than religious dogma.
The assholes I am referring to are simply assholes. They are in every community. You more than likely know some of them.
Luke 22:19 is the only place in the bible where it is commanded to observe.
The other thing commanded is baptism, but not on a regular basis.
The bible SHOULD be the only reference Christians follow. But hey, I’m not a Christian anymore. I just like pointing out the hypocricy.
Every Catholic true to their colors will disagree with this statement. We are arguing from different religious starting points. That’s why I said I wouldn’t go into it because 1) it takes a LONG time, and 2) I’m feeling lazy and I really don’t want to have to citecheck sources right now about Christian history and all that jazz.
well your last comment I’d agree with. Like Golftesticles, that’s a good example.
LOL that’s why Catholics are full of it. But that’s why I think all christianity is full of it, since they all branched from Catholicism in the first place.
There’s a pasage about Jesus conferring onto Simon Peter authority. Something about Peter being “The Rock”(not the wrestler) and “upon this Rock I shall build my church.” and that anything that you seal on earth shallbe sealed in heaven, and everything loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Ican’t find it because 1) i havent memorized whereall the passages are in the Bible,and 2) I’m too lazy to look for it.
matthew 16:18
What does that have to do with what we speak of? LOL
Well thanks for finding it.
The official teaching is that it was in this moment that Jesus conferred his authority on the teachings of faith and morals to Simon Peter who, Tradition claims, became the very first pope of the Church.
I say again:
This hatred of Christmas by secular progressives (i.e. PeeMom) is all part of their agenda to get Christianity and spirituality and Judaism out of the public square. Because if you look at what happened in Western Europe and Canada, if you can get religion out, then you can pass secular progressive programs, like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will, gay marriage, because the objection to those things is generally religious-based.
You have France - or Holland, you have legalized prostitution, you have drugs. All those things come in which religious organizations tend to oppose.
You’d think that Jesus would mention a pope eh?
Or someone would in the bible somewhere. But alas, there is none of that in the bible either.
We have the complete succession of pope’s over the entire existence of the Church from the current pope going waaayyyy back to Peter.
I’ll try to find it for you. It’s most likely on the Vatican website.
And I’m supposed to believe that?
You know the Baptists (anabaptists) make the same claim, but without the popie stuff.
Pee,The very idea of “the Bible being the only source of instruction on faith and morals” is an idea that emerged much later than the existence of the popes. The Catholic Church pre-dates that idea.
let me see if I can find it on wiki again…
And I’m supposed to believe that?
LOL!
Pee,If you can believe that a man can walk on water, cure the sick by just touching or speaking to them, die and come back to life, and in actuality is the primordial Divine Being… then it’s not much of a stretch believing that the succession of pope’s has endured throughout history.
Wiki is a really bad reference site.
Will, think about it. The Catholic church was known for being extremely corrupt in the early years. That is a historical fact. Do you think that being that close to Jesus’s life, if they were true, that there wouldn’t have been all that?
Besides, there is no record of any popes till later.
I will look at what you produce, simply because I’m interested.
Goofytesticles, I love Christmas, in the pagan way. I don’t consider it any sort of Christian holiday.
Remember as a JW I was never allowed to celebrate it, so MAN OH MAN do I feel good that I can now.
Religion has NO PLACE in government. Rules and laws should be based on facts!
Remember, if we based our laws on religion you might have to spill your seed inside your sister in law so she can have a baby if your brother dies and take her for your wife. Now that would make for an interesting law!
Peemom,uh, yeah, you ever hear of Judas Iscariot? He was a DISCIPLE of Jesus! But notice how even Judas’ actions was part of the Divine Plan. After all, Jesus himself foretold it.
Our laws are BASED on religion. And if you don’t understand that, you just don’t understand US history.
ARMINIANISM
Arminianism is a school of soteriological thought in Protestant Christian theology founded by the Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius. Its acceptance stretches through much of mainstream Protestantism. Due to the influence of John Wesley, Arminianism is perhaps most prominent in the Methodist movement.
Arminianism holds to the following tenets:
* Humans are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation* Salvation is possible by grace alone* Works of human effort can not cause or contribute to salvation* God’s election is conditional on faith in Jesus* Jesus’ atonement was potentially for all people* God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe* Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith
Arminianism is most accurately used to define those who affirm the original beliefs of Jacobus Arminius himself, but the term can also be understood as an umbrella for a larger grouping of ideas including those of Hugo Grotius, John Wesley, Clark Pinnock, and others. There are two primary perspectives on how the system is applied in detail: Classical Arminianism, which sees Arminius as its figurehead, and Wesleyan Arminianism, which (as the name suggests) sees John Wesley as its figurehead. Wesleyan Arminianism is sometimes synonymous with Methodism. Additionally, Arminianism is understood by some of its critics to also include Pelagianism, though supporters from both primary perspectives deny this vehemently.
Within the broad scope of church history, Arminianism is closely related to Calvinism (or Reformed theology), and the two systems share both history and many doctrines in common. Nonetheless, they are often viewed as archrivals within Evangelicalism because of their disagreement over the doctrines of predestination and salvation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
Well, I finally found the source!
The complete list of popes.
All 266 pontiffs with the years of their pontificate. Comes with a description for each.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
VI. REPRESENTATIONS OF ST. PETER
The oldest extant is the bronze medallion with the heads of the Apostles; this dates from the end of the second or the beginning of the third century, and is preserved in the Christian Museum of the Vatican Library. Peter has a strong, roundish head, prominent jaw-bones, a receding forehead, thick, curly hair and beard. (See illustration in CATACOMBS.) The features are so individual that it partakes of the nature of a portrait. This type is also found in two representations of St. Peter in a chamber of the Catacomb of Peter and Marcellinus, dating from the second half of the third century (Wilpert, “Die Malerein der Katakomben Rom”, plates 94 and 96). In the paintings of the catacombs Sts. Peter and Paul frequently appear as interceders and advocates for the dead in the representations of the Last Judgment (Wilpert, 390 sqq.), and as introducing an Orante (a praying figure representing the dead) into Paradise.
In the numerous representations of Christ in the midst of His Apostles, which occur in the paintings of the catacombs and carved on sarcophagi, Peter and Paul always occupy the places of honour on the right and left of the Saviour. In the mosaics of the Roman basilicas, dating from the fourth to the ninth centuries, Christ appears as the central figure, with Sts. Peter and Paul on His right and left, and besides these the saints especially venerated in the particular church. On sarcophagi and other memorials appear scenes from the life of St. Peter: his walking on Lake Genesareth, when Christ summoned him from the boat; the prophecy of his denial; the washing of his feet; the raising of Tabitha from the dead; the capture of Peter and the conducting of him to the place of execution. On two gilt glasses he is represented as Moses drawing water from the rock with his staff; the name Peter under the scene shows that he is regarded as the guide of the people of God in the New Testament.
Particularly frequent in the period between the fourth and sixth centuries is the scene of the delivery of the Law to Peter, which occurs on various kinds of monuments. Christ hands St. Peter a folded or open scroll, on which is often the inscription Lex Domini (Law of the Lord) or Dominus legem dat (The Lord gives the law). In the mausoleum of Constantina at Rome (S. Costanza, in the Via Nomentana) this scene is given as a pendant to the delivery of the Law to Moses. In representations on fifth-century sarcophagi the Lord presents to Peter (instead of the scroll) the keys. In carvings of the fourth century Peter often bears a staff in his hand (after the fifth century, a cross with a long shaft, carried by the Apostle on his shoulder), as a kind of sceptre indicative of Peter’s office. From the end of the sixth century this is replaced by the keys (usually two, but sometimes three), which henceforth became the attribute of Peter. Even the renowned and greatly venerated bronze statue in St. Peter’s possesses them; this, the best known representation of the Apostle, dates from the last period of Christian antiquity (Grisar, “Analecta romana”, I, Rome, 1899, 627 sqq.).
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/index.htm
These are the latter popes that had no info displayed about them on the newadvent site.
oh holy cow, X - give it a rest
Im just doing my duty. Dont take it personal, buddy.
I wanted Will to post that. I had NO idea where Catholics got their ideas from.
Guy- Catholics created the bible, they picked and chose what would go into it, centuries after Christ died.
Now, why on earth didn’t they include these ’subbooks’ that the first website claimed about Peter being Pope of the church?
Do you have any idea how ridiculous it all sounds? It sounds literally like ‘dude, we have to explain this, so we’re going to write this story here and say it’s fact’..
which sadly, is what almost every church has done.
Christianity has been perverted beyond repair.
And protestants don’t get off any easier, because everything that THEY believe, started out as Catholic doctrine.
WOW - quite a night late last night!
My family will probably attend Midnight Mass as we do every year. I am not particularly concerned that we will be arrested and summarily executed as seems to be the claim with the so-called “War against Christmas”.
However, around that particular celebration I will also wish my Jewish friends Happy Hannukah and will wish many people Happy Holidays.
Regardless of Golfnut’s bogus claims that I hate Christmas or hate Christians I will be, as usual, purchasing angel ornaments from Catholic Charities St. Anthony Family Shelter this year. These make wonderful gifts for many on one’s list; particularly family members across country. These ornaments, in my opinion, capture the true spirit of the holiday.
I encourage Will, golfer, and all others who claim to be imbued by the Spirit to purchase these ornaments. I’m sure Catholic Charities downtown has plenty.
Midnight mass; Ah, yes, I remember that.
Rage, me, too.
Will, have you read Holy Blood, Holy Grail? It’s an interesting book containing a lot of history of the Catholic Church. I won’t go so far as to say that it’s all fact, especially concerning the premise of the book. That is theory.
And since you’ve used Wikipedia, here’s a little more about Peter and Paul.”Rome became the pre-eminent Christian city (vis-a-vis Antioch and Alexandria, and later Constantinople and Jerusalem) based on the tradition that Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in the city during the 1st century, coupled with the city’s political importance. The Bishop of Rome, later known as the Pope, claimed primacy over all Bishops and therefore all Christians on the basis that he is the successor of Saint Peter, upon whom Jesus built his Church;”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome#Religion
Attended the Christmas concert at Century II last night - magnificent. The Wichita Symphony and Butler County chorus gave a wonderful performance of classic Christmas music - both secular and religious.
And they were not arrested!
Libs=compost for the cultural rot of America
Libs=longing to be like Europe’s secular trend
Libs=The bitter minority
I hope that the Christians eventually do prevail in the “War on Christmas” then maybe we will have a country in which:
A candidate for public office can declare his Christianity and still be elected
We can have a long unbroken string of Christian presidents that lasts 200 years or more
Christian holy days become Federal holidays
It becomes commonplace for the bible to be used as the default item used in courts and at other official swearing in ceremonies.
SOB=TOTAL LIAR
When I attend MidNight Mass Christmas Eve do you want me to pray for you?
steve - why would you want a witness in Court to swear in on a Book that has no meaning to him? Are you advocating a theocracy like the Taliban instituted in Afghanistan?
What lies Ben?
I don’t joke about my faith. So if your offer of prayer is genuine, thanks. If it is not, then no thanks.
Ben,
I believe Steve’s post would throughly sarcastic, as 95% percent of the things he stated are already true (We also have a few non-Christian presidents, starting with Jefferson).
Allright, lets cut the crap. we need a push to ban PC crap. If you get your feelings hurt, get a damn band aid and get over yourself !!!!!
http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061213/NEWS01/612130361/-1/nletter02
Peemom,Catholics came up with the Bible?LOLOLOLOL!!!
I’m sure the Jewish writers of the 46 books comprising the Old Testament would have something to say about that!
Lawmakers renaming the holiday tree? You’re right, Sol, that IS pretty damn PC.
This is so stupid. You know what these lawmakers are fighting over? They’re fighting over an offshoot tradition from a Catholic holiday. Yes Christmas is a Catholic holiday (as are all the Christian holidays) and they are fighting in court about a tradition upheld by Protestant separatists who wanted to keep the secular practices of Christmas, despite the fact that in the Bible there is a passage which states distinctly to never observe holy days.
Well, actually X, the Roman Catholic Church determined sometime in the 4th century C.E. the makeup of the canon, which became the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible, as we now know it. Perhaps this is to what P-Mom was referring. I think (help me out, oh those with more history than I can currently muster) this was at the Council of Nicea; it was at some Council, around ca. 325-350 C.E.
VT is right, the Catholics did decide what books to put in the bible. And notice that every bible from Protestants followed suit, as with every dang holiday.
The old testament was Jewish, but maybe Erik can help me out with that- Is the Torrah exactly the same as the old testament?
VT,Sure, I know all about that. The Church Fathers compiled the books of the Bible in the 4th century A.D. but that does not mean that the Church Fathers actually composed the writings of the either the Old or New Testament which is what I thought Peemom was getting at.
The reason that the proto-gospels (i.e. the gospel of Judas, the gospel of Mary Magadalene) were not included in the first Palestinian Canon was because they were found to be spurious and from authors who were clearly not who they claimed to be. It is the same with Judaism, they too have rejected many ancient Jewish writings on the basis of being spurious and incoherent with the Torah. What does that have to do with anything we are talking about?
Mom, I’ll let Erik correct my vague memory on this, but as I recall, the Torah consists of the five books of Moses, i.e., the first five books of what we know as the Old Testament.
That’s right. Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers and Deuteronomy. That is the Torah.
The books of Hebrew history, and the books of the Prophets are not considered part of the Torah, (also known as “the Law.”)
So then, where did all the other books in the old testament come from?
p-mom - the rest of the Old Testament are the books of the Prophets and the history. They are added to the Torah.
“I say again:”
And of course, saying things over and over again makes them true.
“This hatred of Christmas by secular progressives (i.e. PeeMom) is all part of their agenda to get Christianity and spirituality and Judaism out of the public square.”
Where did Political_Mom say she hated Christmas? I missed that one. It appears you are pulling the old right wing talking points, assigning name to label (liberal), and therefore presume to speak knowledgably about the intentions of others. Such knowledge, however, tends not to exist outside of the individuals who presume to have it. That is, it is not reflected in actual reality.
“Because if you look at what happened in Western Europe and Canada, if you can get religion out, then you can pass secular progressive programs, like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will, gay marriage, because the objection to those things is generally religious-based.”
Yep, that’s it, the secular left wants to get “religion out” so that they can perform their laundry list above. If only we can get rid of religion, we can do what we want. Of course, somehow I always miss those discussions at the secular left secret meetings.
“You have France - or Holland, you have legalized prostitution, you have drugs. All those things come in which religious organizations tend to oppose.”
And longer lives, less children dying, etc. That damn evil secular left.
Ksgolfnut, you are arguing with labels to whom you have preassigned positions, not with what others are actually saying.
Testicles doesn’t need facts. Like Bush, he makes up his own.
By the way, libs are also very much for freedom of personal religion- as long as it stays out of government.
“secular progressive programs like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will”
…all run counter to religious beliefs.
Keeping religion out of goverment = complete loss of morality and ethical behavior.
Yeah and aren’t you the epitome of moral and ethical behavior!
HA!
Here’s news for you, I’m more moral and ethical in my non-religious pinkie than you are on your best day.
“Keeping religion out of goverment = complete loss of morality and ethical behavior.”
Contrary to your ahistorical rantings, keeping religion out of government was exactly the intent of those who founded this nation (argue what you will about the states, but every state eventually adopted provisions similar to the Bill of Rights).
I’m not going to quote from Madison’s Memorial and Remonstrance (again), and allow types like you to spin and obsfucate the meaning of each passage. Read the whole thing HERE (it’s not long):
http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/madison_m&r_1785.html
Damn liberal anti-Christian secularist!(the son of a minister, by the way)
“Here’s news for you, I’m more moral and ethical in my non-religious pinkie than you are on your best day.”
Posted by: political_mom | December 13, 2006 at 07:30 PM
This from the baby killer advocate?
Rage,
Are you a developer?
Outstanding fleetwod
“secular progressive programs like legalization of narcotics, euthanasia, abortion at will
“…all run counter to religious beliefs.
“Keeping religion out of goverment = complete loss of morality and ethical behavior.”
=completely unsupported bs.
From the advocate of women’s rights. You’re darn right. You fix the problems with all the reasons behind abortion, and I’ll switch sides.
And don’t have sex isn’t one of them.
dang how did this become an abortion topic too?
“Rage,
Are you a developer?”
Yep. VB, huh? You doing .NET stuff?
The posterchild for 21st century feminism is Paris Hilton. How exactly is being a tramp “empowering to women?”
SOB,”Libs=The bitter minority”Then how do you explain this last election?