An article in The Eagle’s Business Today section explored how businesses are getting ready to handle concealed-carry, which becomes law in Kansas on Monday. Some businesses that want to bar anyone from coming onto company property while carrying have to post signs; others don’t, because they are exempted in the law. Many will agree with Brad Elliott, president and chief executive of Equity Bank, which won’t post signs barring guns. “It’s the person that doesn’t register and has a concealed weapon that I’m concerned about,” he said.
As Kansas adjusts to the law, the hope is that concealed-carry proponents will be respectful of business owners’ right to decide whether to welcome concealed guns, rather than harass sign-posting businesses for being anti-gun.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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68 Comments
Yeah, that is a difficult one alright, for starters you will not see a legalize citizen that follows the law and has respect for other rules on carrying concealed weapon in a prohibited place as compare to a gang member that is carrying and has no respect for law or other people.I will be concern about safety in doing business in places that do post those signs.I have no trouble in asking someone if they have a CCW license and calling it in for verification, you can also bet that my cameras will be taking pictures.If they are legal, they will be welcome.
I see no problem with barring concealed carry on the premises of a business IF they are willing to accept all of the responsibility for insuring my personal safety while on their property. If they fail that and I come to harm on your property then be prepared to have the mother of all lawsuits on your hands. As far as I am concerned, barring concealed carry on your property implies you are taking full responsbility for my safety and I expect you to spare to no expense to make sure you live up to that responsibility.
The money quote-
“Brad Elliott, president and chief executive of Equity Bank, which won’t post signs barring guns. “It’s the person that doesn’t register and has a concealed weapon that I’m concerned about,” he said.”
I respect the right of a business to bar concealed carry, puzzling as it is.
Those signs will now become a major factor in where I do and do not go.
I have seen the gun circle no , thing in several business windows..does this mean they dont sell guns,they dont have a gun or don’t wont to buy a gun.I just waiting for the signs in 104 languages on the door that say NO guns
I travel and have watched other states implement this. At first everyone thinks it is a big deal and you see signs everywhere. Gradually they disapear and the conceal-carry thing is forgotten.
Only people who obey the law to begin with are going to observe a business’ ban. Those aren’t the people businesses need to be worried about.
Those of us who intend to carry legally will gladly take our business elsewhere, if a business posts a sign banning concealed carry. By the way, that little sign will be a great service for criminals who already carry, illegally. It will tell them that the business is probably undefended.
The signs are great. Now I can do a “drive by” and see which stores I will patronize without even having to go in. Labeling is good. Just avoid them.
I feel so much safer now that Barney gets concealed carry what a joke.
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/gun-alone.htm
Myth 1: “I have a gun and that is the only self-defense I need”(or “I have a permit to carry.”)
A gun by itself is simply that; a gun, a tool and nothing more. Loading the pistol and firing at a stationary target is not self-defense. Having a Permit to Carry a Pistol alone is not self-defense. From 1993-2002, in the United States, there were 636 Police Officers feloniously killed in the line of duty[1]. The majority of these officers died engaged in an encounter they knew could potentially end their lives. Unfortunately, 78.6% of the 636 officers killed in the line of duty never even cleared leather. What makes Joe average permit holder think they will do any better then Professional Law Enforcement Personnel who enter life or death situations every day and train for these types of encounters regularly? Even trained Officers who survive gunfights often miss the bad guy they’re aiming at. It is very different when your target is screaming, running and shooting at you. Very few civilians and permit holders ever receive training or practice weapon retention techniques ignoring the fact that from 1993-2002 there were 46 officers who were feloniously killed by their own weapons[2]. Many staunch guns advocates would rather ignore this fact and dismiss it as anti-gun rhetoric and embrace their false belief that the gun itself is protection and personally owned firearms pose no threat to the owners themselves.
Christ, Santiago, you shoot your mouth off often enough, what would happen if you actually had a gun?
You own firearms? That guy on the My Space profile?
Scary thought?
Yes!
A teacher once told me that whenever a gun is brought to an argument, the gun wins; all the people involved lose.Given the number of arguments in the world, don’t you think it would be smart not to carry firearms?
” don’t you think it would be smart not to carry firearms?”
Yes, but with all of the morons out there we don’t have much of a choice.
Maybe with all of us having guns, some of the morons out there will rethink things like robberies or what ever. Or if they do, someone will shoot them, kill them so they wont live to rob again.
KILL ‘EM ALL!
.morg
The thing you forget is that cops are going into the shit. It’s their job. They get into all kinds of odd circumstances… and they can’t just leave.
The CCH holder is not doing this. He or she is only responsible for themselves and their loved ones. The first and best option is to leave, if possible, the use of deadly force is the last option.
If you think about it just a little bit I think that you’ll understand.
Good post, .morg.
I don’t know how these gun nuts can have so much experience with guns and then think that they can have this mystical power to keep the bearer of one “safe.”
I’ve been hunting and seen a guy hit a wounded squirrel with the butt of his shotgun, the gun discharged and SINGED THE HAIR ON THE SIDE OF THEIR HEAD.
I myself one time accidentally brushed the barrel of my shotgun up against an electric fence–the resulting shock caused me to involuntary drop the gun, which fortunately did not go off and shoot my buddy.
My brother and I were “playing army” with my dad’s M-1 carbine one day. We thought the gun was unloaded because the clip was detached from the rifle. Unfortunately what we forgot was that there was still one in the chamber–KA BLAM! A shot lodged in the cedar panelling of our basement.
Anybody who spends much time around guns realizes that they are dangerous in and of themselves.
Gun nuts don’t think realistically about guns. They imbue them with a kind of power that borders on religious faith.
I will continue to patronize businesses that recognize my RIGHT to carry concealed. I will continue to add to my colection of 80 firearms and almost 400 000 rounds of ammo and woe unto anyone who trys to take ‘em from me!
CapnGalahad, you and your ilk may be clumsy with guns but that ain’t so for most of us.
Viva la Revolucion Blanco!!
I grew up with guns so I don’t idolize them like your ilk does.
And I’m glad that you’re so sure that nobody with a CCP could ever be clumsy or a bad shot or drunk or argumentative or let their kid have accidental access to their weapons.
Your “faith” in the gun is exactly what I’m talking about . . .
BTW, Ian, since firearms are probably the most popular items for theives (after cash), you might not want to brag about how big your gun collection is on a public blog.
FYII
Capn, I don’t assign any magical or mystical power to riearms, they are merely tools. Rather, it is the nanny sate leftists that wish to grab guns because they fear an armed populace might rsist their evil and nonsense, and they are right. It is also a case of left wing snobs lookin down their noses at “rednecks” like me, who choose to own guns.
Lastly, I don’t fear intruders, I WELCOME them! :)
Viva La Revolucion Blanco!!
And since you apparently never leave your house, that’s a great plan . . .
Capn
A gun is a tool, no better or worse than it’s user. No mystical powers, just the most effective tool for personal self defense.
Why is it you Leftwingers automatically assume the worst of all people. Your apparent distrust explains a lot about the positions you take on issues of freedom and responsibility.
Straw man, Heckler.
I didn’t say that people were BAD, I just said that people make mistakes.
Mistakes and guns is a bad combination.
The idea that carrying guns around makes people “safer” is a conclusion I just can’t agree with. Guns are inherently dangerous–even the police sometimes are hurt by their own guns, and they’re trained. “Friendly fire” killed more Americans in the first Gulf War than the enemy did.
And btw, the liberal left don’t want “to take your guns away.” We would like things like registration and weapon ID’s so that when a gun is used in a crime, it can be traced like a car can be traced.
It’s already going in that direction and so far not a single gun owner has had to turn over his gun . . .
Capn
It’s obvious you’ve never hung out with folks you take gun safety and weapons handling technique seriously.
And yes, the Left does want to takes guns away, they figured out about ten years ago that they can’t say so out loud. You may not feel that way but a lot of leaders in the Democrat party do.
You don’t have to worry about the gutters running with blood until Jan 3rd, the DL offices are closed on the second.
And have a Happy and Prosperous New Year.
Hey, heckler, you are wasting your breath with Capn. His ilk feel that we lumpen don’t have the capcity to own and use guns in a responsible fashion. In their “minds”, we unwashed down have the capacity to run our own lives unless under the watchful eyes of one of their nannystate flunkies.
Viva La Raza Blanco and Happy New Year!!!!!!
Capn JR .morg
A year from today you’ll have forgotten all about the issue, I’ll remind you then.
I dislike guns because they cause people to take a “me” centered view of crime.
Once they get their gun? They BELIEVE they can take care of themselves. And so, that is all that they worry about.
Our society has crime because of poverty and an ever shrinking level playing field. MOST who can afford the luxury of guns are less affected by this. Their perceived bubble of safety causes them to forget about everyone else. And so, the root causes of crime remain. Nothing gets any better. The desperate are not helped. They just become an easier target for those who have forgotten everyone but themselves
There are at least a few posting this blog I would not trust around me with a gun. Since they represent like minded other conceal carriers, I will avoid places without the sign.
From the same article I posted above. I think half of you guys that get concealed carry probably will have trouble clearing your beer bellies. How about the eagle coming up with a combat course demo event. I want to see how well the cc guys handle themselves.
http://www.usadojo.com/articles/gun-alone.htm
There exist an extremely dangerous and ill-conceived idea among some gun enthusiasts that simply having a firearm will provide all the self-defense protection a person will need. Just this past weekend I had a gentleman who stopped by my booth at a trade show commenting, “yeah I don’t need any self-defense training because I have my Permit to Carry”. I asked this particular gentleman if he had participated in any additional training after taking his State Mandated Permit to carry course, such as Tactical Pistol, Knife Defense Training, Weapon Retention, etc. The gentlemen responded that he had not. I continued on to ask if his Permit to Carry Instructor taught him how to properly carry his firearms, draw from his holster, how to perform emergency reloads and how to use cover and concealment in a gunfight. This gentleman simply responded, “I don’t need any of that fancy stuff, I have been around guns my whole life”. As the conversation unfolded the gentlemen volunteered that he does not practice drawing from his holster, does not practice his reloading skills or even dry fire exercises. The final straw was when he commented he only live fires his carry weapon about twice a year. I politely removed myself from this particular gentleman and continued with the business of the day knowing that some people prefer to live in the self-deluded belief that they could protect themselves if the time came to it without any realistic training.
JR
The root cause of crime is criminals.
Heckler
Criminals are by and large folks who have been made desperate by an uneven, unjust society. You just have never been exposed to that society. You in fact are a HAPPY advocate of that society where those who have victimize those who do not.
“Criminals are by and large folks who have been made desperate by an uneven, unjust society. ”
So what? Does that make it OK for them to rob me? While you’re sympathizing with the poor criminal for society’s failure to make them a good citizen, I’ll be pulling my gun and hoping he doesn’t make me use it.
“And btw, the liberal left don’t want “to take your guns away.” We would like things like registration and weapon ID’s so that when a gun is used in a crime, it can be traced like a car can be traced.”
That’s ridiculous. If you don’t believe the liberal left wants to confiscate guns, all guns, yours and mine, you’ve been misled.
And further, exactly what does “gun registration” do except cost the taxpayers money? There are many, many examples of places where gun registration is mandatory, and all it does is cost taxpayers money, and to the best of my knowledge, none have ever solved a single crime.
In order to trace a gun, you have to have a gun. Most criminals don’t conveniently leave their guns at the crime scene. And once the police have it, so what? Criminals don’t buy their guns at stores. They buy their guns from other criminals. At best, you’d be able to trace who bought it in the first place. So what?
All a CC law “allows” one to do is what citizens should never have been “disallowed” from doing in the first place. Defend one’s self.
For all you fear mongers who believe CC laws will cause an increase in crime and accidents, all you have to do is look at all the other places (yes, Kansas is one of the last in the country) and look at the evidence. In most places, crime goes down. At WORST, it has no effect.
Why are you so afraid of your neighbors. Are you afraid of your neighbor now when they come over to your house? Why would you be afraid of them when they come over to your house after they get a CC license?
The number one tool used by criminals in assaults is fists, not guns.
morg,
Criminals tend to prey on easy marks. If they detect any sign of defense (such as someone looking like they might be going for a concealed weapon) chances are they’ll back off and find an easier mark.
People who study the issue find that quite often, crimes are prevented by the mere showing of a gun. You just never hear it on the news because its not exciting.
JR
I grew up in poverty. I just didnt know it. I didnt like being poor. I did something about it. And I didnt have to rob anyone either.
Heckler
Yes well it’s too bad you don’t remember where you came from.
I DON’T come from poverty. I am late to its growing ranks.
You and Tim might do well to think about the causes of problems in society as opposed to hoping to defend yourselves from the consequences.
Have you ever seen somebody’s cell phone drop out of their pocket? Found a lost wallet?
Now we’ll look forward to having someone leaving their gun lie around.
And since the NRA gun lovers refuse to allow simple things like registration, we won’t even be able to return it to it’s proper owner.
For the thousandth time, if guns created peace and a law abiding citizenry, Baghdad would be the most peaceful place on earth.
“Criminals tend to prey on easy marks. If they detect any sign of defense (such as someone looking like they might be going for a concealed weapon) chances are they’ll back off and find an easier mark.”
So if I carry around a BB gun that looks like a .45, I’ll be able to scare off potential criminals?
The Eagle ran a story awhile back about two guys who intended to rob a guy, so they knocked on his door.
He met them with a drawn pistol. They grabbed his pistol and shot him with it.
“He might have gone on livingBut he made one fateful slipWhen he tried to match the RangerWith the big iron on his hip.”
Marty Robbins “Big Iron”
I’m neutral about this particular issue, but would guns be allowed in bars? Mixing belligerent drunks and guns is a terrible, terrible idea. Even upstanding, law-abiding citizens who register their guns and all that jazz can turn into volatile monsters after too many beers…
“I’m neutral about this particular issue, but would guns be allowed in bars?”
No you cannot conceal and carry in a bar, nor can you be under the influence and Conceal carry. Shows you how misinformed some are.
“He met them with a drawn pistol. They grabbed his pistol and shot him with it.”
Crime statistice actually show this myth to be false. Most people that have a gun and are legally protecting themselves RARELY loose the gun, and usually shoot the assailant before they get close enough to take the gun. That is the first rule to handling a gun, know when to use it.
“No you cannot conceal and carry in a bar, nor can you be under the influence and Conceal carry. Shows you how misinformed some are.”
No need to get nasty asshat, I don’t even live in Wichita–I never professed to be an expert on gun control laws. Just a curious question.
No, I won’t “hassle” a business who bars legal carry (they are not barring illegal concealed carry by the thug who is actually a threat of course). It shows me that, unlike the gentlemen from Equity Bank, they haven’t thought throught the likely consequences of their decision very well. I will also, given a choice, take my business elsewhere, and I will – politely – tell the business why I will be doing business elsewhere.
BTW – my bet still stands. Still no takers?
And, shockingly [that's sarcasm, folks], the Eagle is still stirring the hysteria. It sells papers, and drives blog hits, I suppose.
http://reformed-theology.org/html/issue11/dont_blame_liberals.htm Just reading for people that thinks its evil liberals who want to take away everbody’s guns
Liberal opposition to Concealed Carry legislation reminds me of Br’er Rabbit begging Br’er Bear, “Please, please, please! DON’T throw me into the briar patch!”
And the NRA, far from being the “constitutional rights” organization it claims to be, has exposed itself as a mere marketing arm of handgun manufacturers.
Kansas’ CC laws mandate a background check, proof of competence, proof of identity (fingerprints and/or DNA) and periodic renewal. As with alllicenses and permits, this procedure (aggressively promoted by the NRA) reduces the *right* to keep and bear arms to a state-controlled privilege. If you apply for a CC permit, (even if you’re *denied* a permit!) thegovernment knows who and where you are.
Back when the NRA claimed it was defending constitutional rights, it opposed governmental data banks that kept track of firearms owners. But when it became an opportunity to sell more handguns, the NRA reversed itself 180-degrees and advocated such governmental tracking of gun owners. The vast majority of CC applicants own more than one gun. By pushing CC laws, the NRA has been instrumental in establishing the very governmental registry of gun owners.
What’s that knock at your door?
The best weapon you can have for self-defense is right between your ears. Being aware of your surroundings and being conscious of others goes a long way towards keeping yourself safe.
Keeping your doors and windows locked usually keeps buglars out. Simple things like locking your car doors and checking the interior before you get in is just common sense.
Walking down a dark alley alone at night is a good way to get mugged. Using your head is a good way to stay safe.
For all the machismo about guns, etc., the best way to protect yourself is to not need a gun in the first place.
And, for the record, I am not anti-gun, I don’t want to take your guns from you, I could care less if you have 80 guns and 4 million rounds at home, I don’t care if you have a permit to carry and I really don’t care if you can recite a thousand stories about how someone saved themselves from violent death by having a gun.
What’s that knock at your door? I will open the door when I know who it is – not until.
Having a drivers license does not prevent human emotions from erupting, hence the term road rage.A CCW license does not say anything about the owner of the gun.I prefer to eat my dinner in an establishment that does not allow concealed or unconcealed guns in the business.We bet drivers licences because we want to drive. We get conceal/carry licenses because we want to shoot someone.This will be a mistake.
Everybody seems to be afraid of criminals. Don’t you know that about 70% of all firearm murders are committed by people who weren’t criminals until they pulled that trigger? It’s not the criminals you should be afraid of, it’s that neighbor or family member who’s just fed up with your stupidity!
“A CCW license does not say anything about the owner of the gun.”
On the contrary; it says:
1) they have demonstrated a history of abiding by the law,
2) they have demonstrated a willingness to abide by the law in this field,
3) they have demonstrated a minimum understanding of safe firearms handling, the law regarding use of deadly force, and marksmanship (though, admittedly, very minimal – most CCH holders were regular shooters before CC,, however),
4) they have demonstrated a willingness to put themselves under the law enforcement microscope to abide by the law.
Now will someone please explain to me why we should have any fear of the CCH holder? Especially given the experience of 47 other states, where the fears expressed here, by some, have NOT come to pass? The licensed CCH holder never was a threat. The unlicensed thug is; but he won’t abide by the law anyway.
BTK would have been able to legally carry a gun. Just because someone can jump through the hoops, doesn’t mean they have the mental stability to carry a weapon.As a mental health professional, the fact that someone WANTS to carry a gun is enough cause for concern to me.
and you don’t need a driver’s license to drive a vehicle either..I would feel more threatened by a gang member driving a stolen car, with a stolen hand gun. neither of which he has a license to carry or operate.. Than some law abiding citizen….
Capn,
The incidents you cite are the exceptions to the rule. You hear about them because they are newsworthy. You don’t hear bout the ones that are not newsworthy.
The media doesn’t report on the house that isn’t burning.
Incidentally, I’m not hearing anbout all the CC holders who are leaving tehir guuns because they forgot about them. The media would have a heyday with that, but you just haven’t heard about it.
WSClark.
100% correct.
I, for one, do not now, and will not, after I get my CC, go out looking for trouble.
Your post is sensible, and everyone should follow that advice.
“Don’t you know that about 70% of all firearm murders are committed by people who weren’t criminals until they pulled that trigger? ”
I’d like to see where you got that information.
Sounds like something the million momo march made up.
How come the gun pusher Phil Journey hasn’t applied for a CCH? I bet he can’t pass the background check.
Tim,FBI crime stats from a couple years back. Your family and friends are far more likely to kill you than strangers. Maybe because they know you better!
MonkeyHawk:
The NRA is what it has always been. It supports the interests of its members, just as any interest group does.
More important, it seems that you are in essence arguing that the 2nd amendment (and you will find no more vocal supporter of an individual rights application of the 2nd Am. than I) guarantees the right to carry a handgun concealed.
I do not believe that it does. While the 2nd amendment certainly protects the right of citizens to own and possess firearms, for all the reasons I suspect we agree on, carrying that firearm on one’s person, concealed, is another matter. I support legal concealed carry, but I do not believe there is any historical or textual support for the notion that the 2nd amendment protected any firearm, anywhere, at any time. Just as the 1st amendment is not an absolute, neither is the 2nd.
Kansas law at present requires no firearm registration (not even the one you carry). The CC statute does not even require one to qualify with the weapon you intend to carry (it should, in my view). And while I would oppose registration of firearms, again, for reasons I suspect we agree on, I see no evidence that CC is any sort of “back door” registration as part of a nefarious plot to seize weapons.
As to other comments:
The analogy of CC license to a driver’s licence is a poor one. First, a driver’s license is relatively cheap, and obtainable by ANYONE with any criminal history, absent some specific driving offenses. It is widespread, and almost universal. DL holders reflect nearly perfectly the society at large; so much so we use it for other purposes (universal ID, jury duty lists, etc.
A CC license, on the other hand, is expensive (between the class and the license you will drop at least $225-$250, and that doesn’t include the weapon). It is not universal; there are a number of qualifiers that will bar a significant numbers of people from carrying legally. And most will not choose to carry, even though they could. NO ONE should carry unless they have carefully thought through all the repercussions of such a choice, typically, less that 4% of those who could carry do. In other words, the CC holder is NOT a reflection of the society at large. A quick review of what is out there suggests that the typical CC holder is better educated and of higher income than the population at large, exactly the people LEAST likely to commit crimes. And a review of the results of CC in other states will show that CC holders committing crimes with their carry weapons is practically non-existent (and thus my still-open bet).
The two have little if anything in common, thus analogizing across the two carries no weight.
Again . . . based upon what is this fear of CC holders I routinely hear?
GMC? “A quick review of what is out there suggests that the typical CC holder is better educated and of higher income than the population at large, exactly the people LEAST likely to commit crimes.” And also as a result the least likely to care about the true causes of crimes. Namely the very social injustice that allows them their priviledged station. Thank you for witnessing in favor of my earlier arguement. Interesting GMC. You find concealed carry at odds with the Constitution but advocate CC anyway? I THOUGHT you were a real “letter of the law” kinda guy. YOUR case GMC? I can see given your job why you might fear the possibility of attack. And though you are given to bursts of emotion, I am not troubled alot by the fact that you will eagerly strap on your gun Wednesday morning. I am not familiar with your bet. I have one for you. Given the level of information in the rather dull local population? I would bet you that we will have no small number of folks who will now carry concealed without a permit. As they will either have little fear of being caught or will be entirely ignorant of the regulations.
Ok I typed that better than it is posted. They made me use the verification thing. It apparently turned my thoughtful post in to a run on paragraph.
JR
GMC did not say that CC is at ODDS with the Constitution, merely that it is not Protected by the Constitution. I don’t know GMC’s feeling on this but I would say that Open Carry of weapons for most law abiding citizens Would be protected. Several of the Framers made statements in their writings that seem to support this.
Guess what JR, we already have a lot of people who carry illegaly. They are generally refered to as Criminals.
The news this morning talked about the beginning of the first concealed weapons permits being issued and the businesses that will post their premises with the sign [ http://www.ksag.org/Concealed_Weapon/CCH_Signs_Regs/Reg_CCH_Signs.pdf andhttp://www.ksag.org/Concealed_Weapon/CCH_Signs_Regs/NO_CCH.jpg ]that will be obeyed by the citizens who have paid several hundred dollars to get training, background checks, fingerprinted and photographed. However the gun that won’t be kept out are the ones that are carried by the criminal who won’t bother with a permit. Just like the bandito in Treasure of the Sierra Madre, the line was “badges, we don’t need no stinking badges.” Only here it will be permits.Rod Serling might do a Twilight Zone showing a young man or group of men, outside two different stores. One store has been posted “No Concealed Weapons” and the other is not posted one way or the other. You hear the man’s thoughts…”I need some cash, which store is safer for me to rob? Behind door number 1, nobody will be armed and behind door number 2, anyone might be armed: decisions, decisions.”If only criminals would obey the law we could all be living in a world without murder, rape or robbery, often a combination of all three. But the realist reads the paper and watches the news; crimes happen. They happen to good and decent people. Lions and leopards don’t look for the strongest animal in the herd, they look for the easiest. Just like in Wichita a decade ago when liquor stores fought back against the growing number robberies and the robbers switched to bakeries and dress shops.Your choice, deter the honest citizen and customer or be the easiest prey in the area. Post your approved Kansas sign and add another, “Cash on hand, robbers safety guaranteed by the owner Honest citizens not welcome.”James H. MacklinWichita, KS 67277
See now THAT line of thinking leaves me scratching my head.
If I did carry a gun. If I’m in a bank and it gets robbed? What I’m gonna get myself involved? Hey until I own the bank? Not my problem.
Or lets say I’m a clerk in a store. Guy comes in and sticks a gun in my face. Well I got no chance to “draw”. I’m gonna be real cooperative and give him my employers money.
Now the guy turns and is running away. I’m gonna whip out a gun and shoot him in the back? Hey not my money, not my problem is my thinking.
So let’s hash THIS one out. If somone is robbing a buisiness. And it aint your business? Are you gonna make it your buisiness?
See? The sign as a point of criminal opportunity arguement does not stand up.
(laughing)
But I guess there ARE some folks among the newly packing who WILL be just itching for the chance to play “hero”.
I got an image here. Or rather they do. It’s like that scene in “Christmas Story”. Heckler or whoever is “Ralphie” protecting the huddled masses with “old blue”.
heh heh
JR,
You confuse me, you are wary of the government but you wish to give them a monopoly of firepower?
Viva la Raza Blanco!!
JR
Your 8:10 post makes no sense. Elaborate.
A Florida experience-
Greater safety for Florida residents and American tourists may be the reason for another notable characteristic of Florida in recent headlines–criminal attacks on foreign tourists. These tourists stood out because of the distinctive rental car license plates that Florida issued until recently. Unlike Florida residents or American tourists (who might shoot back), foreign tourists would certainly be unarmed, suggests the head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. [41]http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LwZ2fKd9S3kJ:www.i2i.org/main/article.php%3Farticle_id%3D643+florida+rental+car+airport+%22concealed+carry%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=3
[41]Doyle Jourdon, head of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, observed, “The bad guys are not stupid. They understand that a tourist from Germany is far less likely to come back and testify against them in court, and they know that these people carry large amounts of cash, don’t have weapons and are generally not that well aware of where they’re going.” Larry Rohter, “Miami Unnerved by a Tourist’s Killing,” New York Times, Sept. 12, 1993.http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/ShallIssue.htm#41
JR
Ralphie was protecting his family, not the “huddled masses”. And he was defending them in their home, not at a bank or Quick Trip.
If you have a CCH the only ones you are responsible for are you and yours. You have no responsibility to anyone else.
Heckler
Exactly.
I was refuting the arguement that buisinesses with the sign would become targets for crime. That is unless the owner is the one being robbed.
JR
“And also as a result the least likely to care about the true causes of crimes.”
The true cause of crime, JR, is criminals. Please do not insult the integrity of the vast majority of honest, decent people of unfortunate means or history who DO NOT commit crimes.
And Heckler pointed out the other glaring flaw. I don’t believe CC is constitutionally protected, but it’s certainly not at odds with the constitution. Think about it, there is a difference there.
As to folks who will carry concealed without a permit – they are doing so now. And they are the potential threat, not the legal CC holder.
The bet, BTW was, that by Jan. 1, 2007 there will not be a single case of a CCH holder being convicted of a crime of violence committed with his carry weapon. NOT ONE. Takers? I’ll take a case of Narragasset in payment. Thanks in advance.
And JR – I hope we have that meet-up. There is far more involved in your last post (8:10) than can be covered here.
JR
As I reread your earlier post, I’m struck by another statement which doesn’t deal with CC exactly, but may speak volumes. After quoting me (without dispute) that CC holders are not typical, you wrote:
“. . . And also as a result the least likely to care about the true causes of crimes. Namely the very social injustice that allows them their priviledged station.”
Query: Are you saying that persons who are of above average incomes and education are so because of a “social injustice?”
So – A person who works hard, studies, gets an education, and is successful has not his/her own labors to thank, but rather is the beneficiary of a “social injustice that allows them their priviledged station.”??Is that what you are saying? Surely not.
I figured there might be other reasons for people to conceal and carry other than the obvious ones personal protection.
I don’t think I would apply for a license because I’ve nevered felt completely comfortable carrying a firearm even while in the military, hunting and or target practice. I guess I’m just one of those who have over-respect of firearms to the point of developing worry for the worst case scenario.
Currently, the only firearm I have is a 1930s double barrell shotgun and I don’t even keep that in my home.
If a person is comfortable carrying a weapon, trains for it and obtains the proper license to carry the weapon, I have no objection of them doing so.
I do agree there should be very strict penalties carrying firearms into facilities where they are prohibited.
I don’t feel this adversely affects the business posting the sign to remind people before they enter the premises. In fact, it might benefit those who could be sidetracked and forget they are “packing.”
GMC, I understand your Second Amendment distinction, and agree therewith. While you and I might quibble over the “individual rights” application of the Second Amendment, it clearly (to me) does not constitutionally protect the right to “concealed carry”; rather, it (again to me) constitutionally protects the right to bear arms for there to be a well ordered militia, which arms were then long guns, incapable of being concealed. “Concealed carry” is not in violation of this, given the advances in firearm technology.