Premarital sex is the norm for most Americans and has been for decades, according to a new study by the Guttmacher Institute. An overwhelming majority of Americans — 9 in 10 people, men and women — told researchers that they had sex before marriage. The figure remains steady even for older Americans raised in the 1940s and 1950s, which casts doubt on theories of a golden age of chastity in America.
One of the study’s authors, Lawrence Finer, called this a “reality check” to those opposing sex education, including the Bush administration, which has poured hundreds of millions of dollars into abstinence-only programs.
“It would be more effective,” Finer said, “to provide young people with the skills and information they need to be safe once they become sexually active — which nearly everyone eventually will.”
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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191 Comments
Oh wonderful! Now we can progress to the next plateau, engaging in sex on the street corner like dogs.
It is about time the fundies of this country acknowledged that “abstinence only” is the proverbial “head in the sand”.
Many unplanned pregnancies have occurred due to this ignorance. That is so sad. Here’s a thought to all of those rabid, anti-choice people who think they will end abortion by picketing clinics; protest “abstinence only” sex education. In reality, that is one of the major causes of the chose for a woman to have an abortion.
“Abstinence only” is unrealistic, dangerous, and exists only in 1950 sitcoms.
All the proclamations, hand wringing and wishing in the world is not going to stop people from having sex…especially young adults who are doubly tempted because of immature judgment and extremely active hormone levels.
One more proof that the more things change, the more they stay the same. So the bottom line of the later 60’s – mid 70’s “free love” era wasn’t really, “OMG, they’re screwing like rabbits”; it was, “OMG, they’re screwing like we did, but they keep talking about it!”
“Abstinence only” has worked just like its predecessor, “prohibition”.
I have no problem teaching abstinence in schools as long as it is coupled with age appropriate regular sex ed too. Abstinence has never worked and it never will. I’m sure that’s why we had shotgun weddings of 16 year olds back in the older days, and many orphanages. Blic, get over yourself.
I also think it’s time to stop treating kids that are having sex like criminals- get them some education to make better choices. All you gotta do is read a few myspace accounts to know that the kids aren’t too worried about the investigations, till they get pregnant.
Survey is no big surprise to me; wrote a research paper about premarital sex and adultery in my senior year in high school, found out then that many more folks had engaged in premarital sex than what the 1950s would lead one to believe. This work, such as it was, caused me to become a champion of all-encompassing sex ed, abstinence only clearly wasn’t the answer (not to mention all the “shotgun” weddings right after graduation from high school).
Poll:
George W. Bush states that he is in favor of abstinence only sex education programs. Do you think the Bush twins practice what their father supports?
Did George W Bush practice what he preaches?
Uh, no RD not at all.
Reality check time people. The Alan Guttmacher Institute is an arm of Planned Parenthood. They have “zero” credibility on this and a host of other issues. This is the opening salvo in the Democrat’s plan to defund the presidents abstinence only sex ed. and replace it with comp. sex ed. And don’t give me this crap that abortions have risen under Bush over what they were under Clinton. Thats more “Guttmacher” B.S.
Funny how we on the right are accused of being mindless robots and sheeple who blindly follow everything that Rush or someother leader says, yet you would have us believe that that this bogus survey is crediable. And finally, Randy Schofield, are you really that stupid or are you just carrying water for the Democrats again?
Yeah and we should listen to the studies from the anti-choice camp who say abortions cause breast cancer?
Guttenmacher is not biased, but the findings usually support the pro-choice positions. Facts support the pro-choice positions, but you can’t have that. When you can verbalize the problem with the study instead of just discounting it, then we’ll talk.
Abstinence has worked so well that it gave us Phreddphlps, Phillkline and Sam Brownback! Of just what about comprehensive sexual education and/or evolution are you afraid? You so-called “Christian Conservatives” are giving a really bad name to both Christians and Conservatives. Your hard-line dogma, “my way or the highway” approach is nothing but rehashed neo-Nazi bullshit.
THANK YOU RM for reeling in your own!
It’s the proverbial Rigties”do as I say, not as I did” approach to nearly every moral question.
Neither one of these really matters.Abstinence is completely unrealistic without a spiritual base which you aren’t ever going to be allowed to get into the schools.And I don’t see how sex ed funding should be increased from when I was growing up in the 70’s and 80’s either.Classroom sex ed was all I ever had. I knew to wear a condom. But did I every single time? No. That’s reality.Call a spade a spade and move on to more important issues like why Johnny still can’t read.
I’ve had plenty of pre marital sex. I’ve never been married!
Good or bad, marriage is becoming a quaint, antiquated tradition. Isn’t it interersting that the same folks who fight for this tradition for heterosexuals would fight just as hard to deny it to homosexals? You’d thik they’d take whatever victory for marriage that they would get.
Like I say, good or bad. But reality is that sex before and outside of marriage is the real world. We should educate our kids to function in the real world.
Johnny can’t read because his mother works 2 jobs because she had him too young and lives in poverty.
It’s all relative.
I got pregnant while using birth control when I was 17, which is also why the morning after pill would have been useless…I didn’t expect to be pregnant. Granted, I wasn’t using it as well as I should have. We need more reliable birth control.
The shot is probably the BEST way to prevent pregnancy, and we also need better education on what makes birth control less effective. Like antibiotics.
So lets take our own poll and see how close the Guttenmacher study was. Who had sex before marriage? And who had sex before the age of 18?
The shot is probably the BEST way to prevent pregnancy, and we also need better education on what makes birth control less effective. Like antibiotics.Posted by: political_mom | December 26, 2006 at 10:16 AM
That actually makes good sense. I don’t see any birth control short of abstinence being 100% effective, but people do need to understand how that 2% or whatever with the pill happens.
I’m a Yes and an I wished at the time (under 18).
Quick side bar on the Bush twins. I worked with a guy a couple of years back who worked for the President prior to his being Governor of Texas. I asked him one time “Do you have any good stories about the Bush girls?” “None that I’m allowed to tell.” – This was all tongue in cheek, they were pretty young at the time he knew them.But I think as GW’s Momma has said when the girls had their troubles in college “I think George is getting back some of his own.”
Hey RM, why do you insist on including a Democrat (Phreddphlps) with two good Republicans, Sam and Phill when you make your utterly stupid little comments.
And P-mom. How convienant that the Guttmacher Institute research always seems to bolster the Planned Parenthood position. Especially since they are the ones who are funding them. You talk about my “nazi like” my way or the highway positions, well just look at youselves for once.
KIA: I don’t think more money should be thrown at the problem, at all. I think we need to look at an efficient redistribution of the current funds, which might actually result costing less! (OK, it won’t end up costing less, but I can dream, now and then.) Abstinence, even with a spiritual base, is not viable. It’s contrary to a natural instinct.
“Who had sex before marriage? And who had sex before the age of 18?”
Guilty as charged on both counts…
The idea that a one-hour-a-day class on abstinence will counter twenty-four-hours-a-day hormones is absurd on it’s face.So is the idea that education is a process of withholding information.Back in the 1950’s, drug education consisted of barefaced propaganda about how one puff on a marijuana cigarette would turn a previously good, innocent kid into a howling lunatic murderer. That, more than anything, was what got us the 1960’s drug experimentation.Abstinence ed has gotten us a generation of kids who experiment with sex, while having no idea whatsoever about safe sex and birth control.It’s been my experience that far more mistakes come from ignorance than knowledge.
Johnny can’t read because his mother works 2 jobs because she had him too young and lives in poverty.Posted by: political_mom | December 26, 2006 at 10:16 AM
Not necessarily. The Mrs is a stay at home mom and my 5 year old reads as well as my now 8 year old. Everyone’s not a victim. In our case there has to be some kind of LD or dyslexia there but he is too young for the schools to figure it out yet. But he is great with math.
RM, I agree with you on the re-distribution. And the spiritual base it a lot better chance than anything. Are you familiar with the “true love waits” ministry at all?
I get quite a kick out of Chris from Mac Town! He puts down the survey by The Alan Guttmacher Institute because he says it is an arm of Planned Parenthood. Zero credibility? Says who? You, Mr. Mac Town? You are one of the many reasons this country is in the turmoil it’s in. If you don’t believe someone just disparge them….call them stupid….say they have no credibility! No facts to back up your reason just holler they are wrong! That’s why “Dubya” and his gang are on the outside looking in. Calling people out with no facts ain’t gonna work this time around!!!!
Chris, you can’t read. I wasn’t the one who called you the Nazi, but yet again, you bring no facts to the table at all, just more blah blah blah. Must suck to always have the facts disrupting your belief system all the time.
I’ve included the three of them together to point out that ignorance knows no political affiliation. Sorry, I guess I should have said Sam Brownback, Phillkline, Phreddphelps and Chris.
And I’m the one, not PMom, who accused you and your co-defendants of “neo-Nazi, my way our the highway” tactics, and I stand by that premise.
PMom: Chalk me up in the “Yes” column.
I’m old enouth to remember those days – and girls seeming to get a little ‘chubby’ and then disapprearing from school for a while. Sometimes not for very long; sometimes much longer. And I also remember her little “cousin” who would mysteriously appear when she returned.
The study is right; this was all going on the the 50s just as it is today. Just we didn’t talk about it, at least not publically.
I also remember it was difficult to obtain condoms; they were not on the counter at the Pharmacy. You had to ask for them – that was a real trip for a teenager.
Kia, I purposely left out the disability issue. That’s a whole nother ballgame.
One school my daughter attended, they had afterschool time where the teachers all came into the caf and volunteers to help kids who needed a little extra help with their work. The school she’s at now does not do that- in fact, they’re all out the door right after school, usually with sports, and finding help is hard for her. I’d love to see sports stop being so important and focus more on actual learning.
I know you’re a big sports guy, so I’m sure you’ll disagree with that too.
So Chris, did you have premarital sex too?
P_mom, yes and almost made it to 18 on the second.
Chris,You must be fairly young. There has been pre-marital sex since there was marriage. Before marriage was instituted, there was just sex.
The difference is that, over the years/decades, we’ve brought it out in the open. Personally, I think we’ve advertised it to the point of being obnoxious, but…
Did God perform a marriage ceremony for Adam & Eve?
KIA,I have to disagree that abstinence is spiritually based. I don’t ever remember my mother or father (he was staunch Catholic) telling me that I shouldn’t have sex (before marriage) because God said it was wrong. I never used that to teach my 4 daughters, either. What I did do was explain to them the consequences of sex (babies, std’s, etc.), and also teach them about birth control. But then, you can teach and preach all you want, and sex still happens.
Abstinence education is good, but used alone, it’s dangerous. Anybody who has gone through puberty understands this.
OK, I smell what you are stepping in on the can’t read vs. LD of some kind.
I don’t know on the sports should you stop art and music programs then too?
Kids need something extra curricular to develop as people.Obviously my personal opinion is team sports teach teamwork better than anything else in the world, skills that are going to carry over long after their waist lines have expanded and arthirits sets in :-)
Ben, your 10:37 post was right on!! I remember my neighbor getting preggers when I was 8 or 9. Quicky wedding for her.
My old college roommate went to live with an aunt and uncle in South Dakota when she became pregnant…and that was in 1970! She opted to relinquish her baby for adoption.
Oh, yes, then there’s me. My birthmother (from a good Catholic family) became pregnant in 1950 (at a party, if the story is true) and the result was me…also reliquinshed for adoption.
Oh, but there should be some kind of middle ground where kids can still get the extra help and not at the expense of extra-curricular activities.
I agree RD, the thing is, I have done the same thing with my daughter, no religious slant, just the consequences and feelings about sex, and she assures me she’s still abstinent at 16. Could she be lying, well sure, but I also knows she has the tools to make the right decisions when her time comes.
Do I expect her to abstain till marriage..no. I don’t even know if I want that for her. Some old ladies I used to work for had some quite interesting stories to tell about sex. They were so glad when they became more knowledgeable about it to enjoy it and not look at it as something dirty and a duty.
Personally I’m very glad I don’t have those hang ups about sex. Makes for a much happier marriage. :D
Sports are also very important for the development of young people, along with many other extra curricular activities. Team sports, in particular provide structure and discipline that some kids may never experience without involvement in sports.
Honestly I wish I didn’t have some of those skletons in my closet.I’m sure everyone can say that no?
Veering off the subject a la KIA and P_Mom…
If kids received the attention they needed in the basic 3R’s early on, literacy wouldn’t be a problem. It doesn’t seem to be getting better, either. It should be focused on in the early years. Instead, teachers, as a whole, are mass educating and not (able?) to help those with extra attention.
There are plenty of kids in 2-parent families who have reading difficulties, and not all of those are homes where both parents work.
Personally I’m very glad I don’t have those hang ups about sex. Makes for a much happier marriage. :DPosted by: political_mom | December 26, 2006 at 10:48 AM
Cue cheesy porn music. ;-)
By the way, I am not from one of those permissive places like the west coast – try Georgia in the Deep South. Mandatory King James Bible readings and Protestant Lord’s Prayer every morning in school. But we still had girls getting knocked up.
I have an older sister I’ve never met. My mom was sent off to have her baby then come back home. The baby was taken from her and she never even got to see it back then. She said she really had no choice in the matter, it was her mother’s decision and that was that.
Kia, I didn’t mean kill all recreational activities, but maybe not put so much emphasis on them. Games or practice every night of the week, all the way down to pee-wee. They’re hurting the learning of our kids. Often activities overlap so the kids have no time for anything else.
MrK, I agree, there should be “some kind of middle ground…”; the issue becomes one of funding.
As to team sports, I would, as one of the worst high school basketball players in the history of the world, argue that many of the benefits thereof can be obtained by participation in intramural activities. With regard to art, music, and other such extracurriuclar activities, there is some evidence from studies (and I’m being hurried here, so will not be able to post a link) that music education, at least at an early age, contributes to success later in areas such as math; a now-retired high school english teacher once told me that it also contributes to success in anything requiring critical thinking, such as writing, reading, etc.
And, from personal observation, the competition on Scholars’ Bowl, Chess teams, Science Olympiad, Debate, et al, is every bit as fierce as on the field/pitch/court, with the lessons of teamwork being learned as a part thereof.
I don’t disagree with any of your above Pmom and Vaughn.
We don’t have our kids involved in youth sports right now during the school year that are going take up school nights for practice or games.
LOL cheesy porn music…wacka wanka wow wow wacka wanka wow wow.
Just because Chris from Mac Town has never had sex (excluding himself) doesn’t mean that this survey is bogus.
What slays me is that everybody screaming for “abstinence only” mean of course, abstinence for everyone else.
You don’t hear Bush-Cheney et al. crowing about how they were virgins until marriage, do you?
Ben,I too remember the condoms behind the pharmacy counter. Unfortunately, more were used to make truely awsome water bombs than for their intended purpose! My class had several temporarily “chubby” girls who went “to visit an aunt.”Actually, until 1948, condoms were illegal in Kansas, and possession of one could land you in jail. Didn’t stop sex. Didn’t stop pregnancy either, or STD’s; just stopped kids from telling their parents about them until it was too late.
I always thought that wentbow chicka bow bow? lol
PMom: Somehow, I doubt Chris had pre-marital sex, unless the sheep counts.
I was a virgin when I got married and don’t mind admitting it. I was raised Baptist and actually believed what was taught to me. That is, if a man has lust for a woman it is better for him to marry than to continue with those type of thoughts. It is a sin or at least a destructive path to one’s own pscyhe if they continue to think lustful thoughts.
One of the comments I often got in military from the younger female troops is that I didn’t treat them like women, but equal.
I credit that to my belief in God’s Word and I have kept myself as pure as possible in body and in mind.
Sure, I took an immense about of ribbing with my stance, but I believe if someone is lead, they need to lead by example and not by fakery.
I worked in a drug store from age 11 to 16. Easy access to condoms — still didn’t use them everytime. Duh!
It’s this kind of “do as I say but not as I do” hypocrisy that disgusts me about the fundies here.
So… a HUGE majority of this so called christian nation ignores the parts of their bible that say “no premarital sex”…
… but, based on their literal faith in their literal bible, they want a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage?
Jesus wept.
If you cant see the problem with that double standard I dont have the patience to explain it.
Why no constitutional ban on premarital or ANY extra marital sex?
Hit too close to home for most of the bible thumpers here?
JM, so you thought marrying some girl because you wanted to get some was a fabulous idea?
See, that’s exactly what I’m afraid of with the religious people- rushing into a lifetime committment for nookie.
Marriage takes so much more than sex, it even takes more than love.
I always thought Bush pushed for the absinence only programs because he knew the money would be directed towards his Christian Conservatives; so his base would be happy just to get more money.
I believe in providing complete sex education which includes abstinence. What I see as missing in the sex education is the responsibility and accountabilty of one having sex.
I think that if more young people were taught that if they are mature enough to have sex then they are mature enough to be responsible for whatever happens.
JM,Yeah, there were several couples in my high school who ran off to Miami OK. and got secretly married. None of those marriages lasted, but at least the kids were “legitimate” if fatherless.I told my kids that they weren’t to get married or have kids until they got out of college and had a viable career experience for at least a couple years. I didn’t forbid sex, just marriage and kids. It worked!
Suza, I have a standing offer to the “power brokers” of the two schools with which I have a continuing relationship, namely I will happily volunteer to be a speaker in whatever class setting deemed appropriate concerning the support obligations for a minor child under Kansas law; even though I do not practice “Family Law”, the support guidelines, etc. are easily researched and explained. To my chagrin, my offer is yet to be accepted.
Just out of curiosity JM, how old were you when you wed? And do you consider your marriage truly happy?
I don’t think JM should be bashed for being strong enough to do things as the bible and his beliefs say.Obviously the world and the country would be in a lot better shape if all had those convictions and the strength to follow them through.Yes, we can admit what we have done and regret it or not. But there is no doubt that the absence of Father’s in particular is as much the downfall of our society as anything.
Hey Farm Gal,Them bible thumpers get just as horny as the rest of us; they just don’t want anyone to talk about it!
Suza, that’s truly what it was about anyway, the abstinence only education funding was found to be being funnelled into those anti-choice clinics that claim to ‘help’ pregnant girls.
“See, that’s exactly what I’m afraid of with the religious people- rushing into a lifetime committment for nookie.”
Or “serial monogamy” like those pillars of virtue Rush and Newt!
I’m not bashing him at all Kia, I’m saying that I think it’s not wise to rush into a marriage because of hormones.
Do you disagree?
Well said, suza.
JM, I applaud you for sticking to your convictions and beliefs.
Anybody remember seeing the movie The Summer of ‘42? Great “drugstore” scene in that one. ;)
abstinence only is a control mechanism of the religious right. Young people who fall in love and have hormones blazing will most likely have sex. This all or none mentality of the religious right hurts the gigantic majority of young people who do engage in premarital sex. Basically, these young people are ‘lost’ forever because they had or are having sex.What about teaching young people that they can talk to their parents or a counselor about sex. Teach them to be open about it. By making it less taboo, we might actually raise healthy kids.Imagine the world without religion? There probably would not be shame. Only a religion can make you feel ugly for being who you are.The POPE claims he does not jack off. What he means is ‘not now.’Everybody has sex – physically or mentally. Period.
No I don’t agree with that part and heck if I’d married the first woman I lusted after I would have married at 13 or 14. I would guess that that part of his statement is being blown out of context a bit. More like, well this is the woman I’m going to marry, we want to have sex. We should get married.
Jed,
I remember the stories about Miami, OK. I don’t know anyone who went there to get married, but I know several who were not expecting who talked about it.
KIA,
Yes, the absence of fathers or at the very least the financial support of fathers is a major problem. Unfortunately, that doesn’t only apply to those who never married.
I was just under 23 when I married, finished college first. I was married for twenty-five years and was happy for the majority of the marriage. We (my X and I were unevenly yoked) that is, I went to church, she didn’t. The result was that at around age 45 she got to feeling her lack of youthfulness and sought comfort with younger men.
Yes, it was quite painful to the both of us and eventually went beyond reconciliation. It was a dark moment in my life.
My X a few years ago admitted that the beliefs I held were right about a lot of life’s challenges and she leads a lonely life as she alienated herself from her children and grandchildren.
She knows she is welcome to visit them anytime, but refuses to take the first step because of pride. I still pray for her to find the strength to re-unite with her offspring.
I haven’t been married for 14 years now and am a happy grandfather and father, so I have many to love and don’t dwell in the past.
Something that is quite different now than in the 50’s is that sex is much more prevalent in our society. Look at the music, teleivison and film industry. Sex is treated like some kind of recreation or something that if it feels good, just do it.
I was raised that sex was something special that was between two people who were committed to each other.
Maybe today’s society views sex differently. In this day of instant gratification, that idea of something being viewed as ’special’ just doesn’t register with people?
JM,
How do you reconcile the fact that the Bible teaches that divorce is wrong? Even Christ mentioned divorce.
I’m not bashing here, only asking for a little enlightenment.
lucee,
I agree. We’ve taken it a few steps too far. But we seem to have done it with everything, including consumerism. We are now a “youth oriented” nation. We cater to youth, probably because they have become the largest consumers.
I remember TV commercials from the late 50’s, and they were mostly targeted to housewives (cleaning products and appliances) and working people (cars). Cars weren’t sold using sex, either. Add things like Pepto-Bismal and Alka Seltzer, Gillette, and that was about it.
Looking back, it was probably during the later 60’s that target audiences changed, and the age groups went lower and lower. The same goes for selling using sex. (Remember the “Take it off, take it all off” shaving commercials?)
“Hey Farm Gal,Them bible thumpers get just as horny as the rest of us; they just don’t want anyone to talk about it!Posted by: Jed | December 26, 2006 at 11:23 AM”
That’s true Jed, we do have the same lustful thoughts, desires as anyone else.
It’s just the way I was raised we were taught to be responsible to our faith first, which meant honoring God’s Word and of course honoring our Father and Mother. I received many a pre-date lecture on how to conduct myself. I didn’t think much of it at the time, but held the respect for my Parents in very high regard. They were afterall, older and wiser than I was and I’m glad I paid attention.
With that said, I’m not going to judge anyone who fell into the lust trap and have had difficulties.
I know some people that lived as common-law for many, many years. They didn’t have problems that were not unsolveable and were generally good folk and citizens.
It was just the way I was raised, that is, part of being a man is being responsible in all aspects of your life and try not to be hypocritical on how you live.
Everyone fails with sin, including me and quite frequently. You just have to know who to turn to when things get out of whack.
Really, it’s that simple. :)
RD, on the late ’50s commercials; I’m going to dissent a bit; sex was used to sell cars (who doesn’t remember the very attractive young woman in the nice dress in the car ads), but it was of a more subtle nature.
Going back to the original topic a bit; when I have listened to folks, particularly those with two X chromosones, discuss what it was like during WWII socially, there is not a doubt in my mind that a lot of premarital sex was happening in those days. Hard data, you ask? Absolutely none, but many, many anecdotes from many, many sources (usually with a twinkle or two in their eyes) leading me to the belief that the late ’60s had nothing on the ’40s (at least pre-1945).
PM,”So lets take our own poll and see how close the Guttenmacher study was. Who had sex before marriage? And who had sex before the age of 18?”
No sex before 18, but not for lack of trying. My wife and I lived together a few years before getting married, and the marriage lasted 20yrs until her death.
The 50s and early 60s: What was life like back then. We had broken homes, divorce, spousal and child abuse. We had happy homes with couples who remained married for a half-century. We had homes in which children were raised wonderfully. We had kids who remained celibate until marriage. We had other kids who were screwing at 12.
Kind of like today …
Maybe things were the same as they are today in the 50’s but it was not as obvious to everyone. There were pregnant girls in my senior high school but they were tutored at home and the thought of providing a day care for their babies at school was just not even a thought back then.
In today’s society we see all this pre-marital sex, single parents, divorce, child abuse and etc. and somehow it has become the ‘norm’. For our country to succeed, we need to get past this focus on the negative and focus on the positive aspects.
Not all 2-parent homes produce wonderful children. I don’t care if the family is 2-parents, single parent, homsexual couple or just living together couple. Families are society’s avenue to produce and raise the next generation. The only thing a kid needs is to know they are loved and accepted. Parenting needs to be encouraged in all kinds of families.
Good comments Ben and as the saying goes “There is nothing new under the sun.”
This is especially true when it comes to sex and sexual relationships. As long as there has been women and men, there has been conflict, moral dilemma and even wars over the matter.
One only has to read the ‘classics’ to find out how much early history records the ‘bliss’ and all its consequences. Many a good love story have been based on carnal desire.
It is all human afterall.
Transferring blame doesn’t do anyone good and sometimes a nodding head and listening triumphs over arm-flaling moral conduct demonstrations.
Good comments Ben and as the saying goes “There is nothing new under the sun.”
This is especially true when it comes to sex and sexual relationships. As long as there has been women and men, there has been conflict, moral dilemma and even wars over the matter.
One only has to read the ‘classics’ to find out how much early history records the ‘bliss’ and all its consequences. Many a good love story have been based on carnal desire.
It is all human afterall.
Transferring blame doesn’t do anyone good and sometimes a nodding head and listening triumphs over arm-flaling moral conduct demonstrations.
JM, you are among the ones that disgust me.
“Everyone fails with sin, including me and quite frequently. You just have to know who to turn to when things get out of whack.
Really, it’s that simple. :)”
No, its not that simple.
Did rush use the phrase “arm flailing” since that is your new go to phrase?
Why do some sins require a constitutional amendment and other sins dont?
Why no constitutional amendment against divorce? Or child abuse? Or just plain meaness and selfishness?
All that hit too close to home for you fundies?
And notice, he only talks about hetero couples. Gay couples dont even exist in his little world. They were legislated out of existence I guess.
heheheheheheheheh
jesus wept.
JM,Yes, sex was around long before people were. It was people, as patriarchs and religions that made sex a moral issue, rather than a human one.Marriage began as a way to enforce sexual exclusivity for the purpose of ensuring blood lines. It has evolved over the centuries into something entirely different with the introduction of romantic love as a basis for marriage, and continues to evolve, addressing equality and orientation issues. Now there are a number of ways to have a relationship, and we are recognizing the validity of other relationships. It’s not a one-size-fits-all anymore. Sorting all this out has led to a tumultuous era, but when we’re done, don’t you think we’ll have a better idea of what marriage is really about?
ksfarmgirl,
I think I’ve heard “arm flailing” for the first time from my father in the 1940s first before I heard it from Rush Limbaugh. My father was referring to my frustration on not getting the tractor started; all the while I was kicking the tractor and flailing my arms around. heh heh.
Besides, Rush Limbaugh I don’t listen to. I think he pontificates a bit too much.
As far as “Gay couples” I can tell you from my perspective and advise that it is not the perspective of the church I attend nor from any conservative base.
The Bible offers little advice on homosexuality with the majority of scripture being between a husband and wife. Or in the case of lust, how these carnal desires should be handled.
I don’t talk about same-sex couples because quite honestly I would have to speak out of ignorance. The Bible tells me to love my neighbors. I’ve had same-sex couples living in neighborhoods where I have lived and they were just as normal as everyone else.
If you want me to give you moral advice on same-sex marriages or common-law marriages, I can’t. There is no guidance that I am aware of from the Bible.
I guess I’m stubborn on this fact, but I’m not going to make something up to suit a political agenda.
I have an in-law who older than I am (in his 70s now) and he has been gay all of his life as far as I know. He is one of the smartest, most adaptive people I have ever met. I trust him implicitly and respect him as a mature adult. We have talked a few times about homosexuallity. His advice to me was to treat him as a brother and everything else would fall into place.
I’ve tried to follow his advice because my in-law brother not only spoke from wisdome and it follows my core beliefs from the Bible.
My apologies if my statements may have left out a group. But I would rather not speak on a matter than to speak out of ignorance.
Homosexuality was never part of the topic or discussion. It’s leftists who want to bring it into every sexual conversation, when homosexuals, even at the highest estimates, make up 10% of our society.Farmgrl – there are conservatives and christians who blog here that do give our politics and faith a bad name. JM isn’t one of them. I’ve tried not to be one.You are one of them on your side.
I’m taking it that you have different children than she does JM? I’m sorry your marriage failed, but really, don’t you think it would have been better had you waited to marry someone more ‘evenly yoked’ as you say?
Middle age crises hit almost everyone though, even with the most true of intentions. So I can’t say if that would have been different had she been as righteous (and I don’t mean that sarcastically) as you?
Kia, we’re talking values, sex and marriage. Gay marriage should be part of this conversation, don’t you think?
Afterall, it’s the same people who want all the abstinence only sex till marriage education who also don’t want gays to get married.
It was the Religious Right that has made the issue of gay marriage. Or was I listening to someone else when Ted Haggard was preaching against homosexuals all this time?
“I’m taking it that you have different children than she does JM? I’m sorry your marriage failed, but really, don’t you think it would have been better had you waited to marry someone more ‘evenly yoked’ as you say?Middle age crises hit almost everyone though, even with the most true of intentions. So I can’t say if that would have been different had she been as righteous (and I don’t mean that sarcastically) as you?” Posted by: political_mom | December 26, 2006 at 01:05 PM
Political Mom,
Same children. I’m not sure why she abandoned them even after all of these years, guilt perhaps. You would have to ask her.
Unevenly yoked issue…You are probably right about that. We were both virgins when we married and was very old-fashioned about her sexuality. She would not undress with the light on until ten years into the marriage. :)
I don’t think of myself being more righteous, not sure that is possible since I’m a fallible human. I think the issue as you have pointed out was some sort of mid-life crisis and the realization that she was getting older. Plus, I should have seen it, but she started to hang around with ‘wild’ divorced and re-married women which may have implanted the seeds of tempation.
It’s probably more complicated than that, but before the divorce was finalized, she moved on the farthest side of the country to start a new life. I don’t know what was in her mind,the time of the start of the divorce and until the divorce was finalized was almost a year. She filed and I was summoned and was not allowed to speak.
It was sudden and I found myself alone. But, I’m over it and have looked to my children and grandchildren and of course to God. I took some Church sponsored courses on divorce and they helped me through understanding that failings that I may have had although contributing were not reason enough to condemn oneself or others for their actions.
I’m at peace with the situation. :)
I thought the topic was more on sex education and how abstinence should be included. Much of the conversation was about unwanted pregnancy. Homosexuals can’t get pregnant (at least by their parter) so I thought that was moot.But it wouldn’t be the first “thread” to get off topic.Anti/Non Christians are never going to give any credability to our beliefs on gay marriage because you don’t give any credability or belief to the Word of God which is where the belief comes from.That’s your business. I just don’t want to personally participate in the discussion at that point.
Matters of sexual orientation will cease to be problematic after 2013.
But don’t the Religious Right want all sex education to cover the abstinence only aproach and that homosexuality is deviant sexual behavior?
There are alot of people that would not classify themselves in the same category as the Evangelical Christians; and yet they don’t approve of gay marriage either. This issue does not belong to just those Evangelical Christians that like to stoke the fire of controversy. As of recent years, the Evangelical Christians are the group that has used gay marriage as wedge issue politically.
Suza not sure if you know but I do consider myself an evangelical Christian. Not sure if you are aware of the difference between Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.Anyways, as far as reality is concerned, you have to pick your battles I suppose on your beliefs.Teaching homosexuality as deviant behavior is never going to happen in the schools. And it’s not going to bring a homosexual to Christ and out of the lifestyle either.I said earlier that abstinence only without a spiritual basis to it is useless in my opinion. So, certainly it can be mentioned, but it’s not going to work. Keep putting the condoms on the banana’s. I do like Moms idea about brining reasons for contraception failure into the education process.The abstain portion really has to come from the home and be a part of your moral foundation. Obviously there are lots of kids who won’t have that, so contraception needs to be a big part of the lessons because the other isn’t going to be allowed in.I probably rambled a too much there. I hope you can get the jist of it.
I am a Christian and to tell you the truth, I am sick and tired of all these different labels. But the outspoken Christians do like to tag themselves as belonging to one certain label – so be it.
I don’t think gay marriage should be allowed but I don’t see anything wrong with civil unions. If a gay couple is committed to one another, then I think they should be afforded the same legal benefits that a married couple share.
That being said, I also believe the heterosexual marriages need to be encouraged and strengthened but I don’t hear anything about that issue being said by Evangelical Christians. This whole marriage issue has been brought down to either heterosexual or homosexual – what about divorce, step families, blended families, multiple divorces and etc.
We are so busy fighting about about gay marriage that we are forgetting society today is slipping away from strong families.
I agree with you on civil unions.
I think some of the problem in what you are talking about in strengthening families then lies with the media. Because Dr. Dobson for instance is discredited almost entirely for his stance on gay marriage, his discussions on the importance of father’s and the family unit in general get ignored. My personal opinion.
Kia-sounds like we are in agreement more than disagreement. I do wish we could get back to more civil politics and stop all this ‘us and them’ crap and do what is best for the country.
suza, KIA – I think we are in agreement on civil union vs marriage. Since marriage is a sacrament of the church the state should not be involved in it at all. My approach would be to use the neutral term union for ALL of the “Caeser” aspect of marriage, whether gay or straight. then leave ‘marriage’ along with baptism etc in the domain of God (church).
KIA – I definitely agree with you on Dobson etc. As a more ’secular’ person married to a Christian for over 35 years I tend to agree that the ‘traditional’ family might be ‘best’; however I also recognize that many other arrangements can also be good.
I know that everyone from the far right scream about the liberal europe, but you just don’t see these problems in the liberal europe. It’s acceptable that people have sex, and it’s acceptable to use birth control. And they have lower abortion rates.
I’ve noticed that too politicial mom. I am a fan of British humor and there are references to sex all the time (ie Benny Hill). But the British doesn’t see sex in the same puritanical way that Americans see sex. Somehow the Americans put an air of sex is ‘dirty’ and perhaps this is why we in America have a difficult time with this issue.
Political Mom,
Some European for sure have a different outlook on sex than we do. I don’t know what it’s like now, but it was an eye opener when I lived in Germany for 8 years.
You disembark from your International Flight In Frankfurt and out of the gate, what do you see? A shop selling sexual toys of all ilk. Vibrators and…well you get the picture.
Traveling a bit down the road a bit further, you see an eight story building and you ask the guy in bus next to you if that is a nice hotel to stay in. He laughs and advices you that it is an eight story ‘Bordello’ with about 20-30 ‘employees’ per floor.
As you approach the military base, you see the street lined with women. You are advised they are there for services of ‘companionship.’
You go for a swim and the German family at the same lakeside beach are stripping down to the buff so they can get into their bathing suits and gear. You put your eyes back into socket and adjust back to the view of the beautiful mountains.
The German Churches are subsidized by the German government.
I could go on, but as you can see it is a different lifestyle and a different mindset.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Its really that simple.
“Do as I say, not as I do. Its really that simple.”Posted by: right-wing terrorist | December 26, 2006 at 02:56 PM
Do as you wish, I’m not your moral guide.
Just allow me my own views without condemnation
Yeah completely different mindset, like it’s no big deal.
Maybe we should think more along those lines?
I don’t think it’s possible to re-invent the U.S. Political Mom. My own suggestion is to a European Country for a long visit and see if you have the same opinions after the visit.
Along with their views on sexuality, you also have to deal with their other laws.
You can be sued for giving someone a gesture on the roads. You must give about 50-60 percent of your income in taxes, there is no choice. You must not engage in noise producing activities on Sunday (including mowing a lawn) after certain hours or on Sunday.
You will go the a Doctor of the Government’s choice, not yours. You receive the choice of treatment prescribed by the Government, not necessarily your Doctors.
You will pay for land on which your house is built by the square foot, not by the lot or acre. You must build your house in accordance with government standards, any architectual diversity must be approved locally by the appropriate councils. This is similar to some neighborhood associations.
Shops of all kinds are closed down after six p.m. There will be no Malls or twenty four hour grocery stores to run to if you forgot something.
And so and so forth. :)
Curiosity, good or bad –Does more then just kills the cat; it alters and can destroy our former selves in one form or another, it is odd how we spend so much energy on the acts of sexuality.The bad in us is out right rebellious, do not care and the good in us always looking to giving ourselves permission without feeling guilty.I think everybody would have to admit that we are struggling so hard to find some happy middle ground about having “SEX” morally, spiritually and religiously.
Some of those laws in Europe sound alot like some here in the US. Haven’t you heard about the neighborhood association rules of building or conduct? Access to health care is government’s choice of doctor and/or treatment – haven’t you heard about HMO’s or other insurance plans here in the US? There are several doctors not in my network that I would prefer to see but I can’t because their charges will not be paid by my insurance. Same goes for my treatment – if insurance balks at some pre-authorized treatment – I don’t get it unless I am willing to pay out-of-pocket. At least in Europe everyone has health insurance. Here in America, a person is lucky to have health insurance and then we still have some of the strict limitation rules.
As far as the taxes go, married couples with kids pay alot more than single parents with kids and then we wonder why people don’t get married like they used to. Our tax laws are so biased that the middle class end up paying for the poor and the wealthy.
There are pros and cons of every place people live – but to say one country is better than the other is like comparing apples to oranges.
I know many people who live abroad, who came from America, and who think living over there is pretty darn good.
Maybe you saw things that were important because of how congested the area was?
Well, if you haven’t lived there (Europe) for an extended period of time it is, in my opinion, extremely hard to form an opinion.
I can tell you from experience that less than one tenth of one percent of U.S. citizens who have lived in Germany (or other countries) for an extended period want to remain there.
It’s kind of hard to describe the taste of chocolate to someone who has never tasted it. Living in Europe is the same way, you have to experience it.
Yes, they have many good ideas and concepts.
But you have to ask youself, why more Americans don’t choose to stay there.
There was a study a few years back that looked into pregnancy rates of teens from the early 1900’s and before, in America. Keeping in mind that for a large portion of that time period people routinely married well before 18, the numbers of under 16 year old teens getting pregnant has been nearly constant since the 1800’s!! The difference is in how it is reported, how it is or isn’t discussed in public, and the terms and current religiousity applied to the situation. The message is clear: Abstinence-only education does not work. Neither does sex-ed only. Both should be used, to give kids the tools to make better decisions than GW and the rest of us! BTW: Poll input: yes, but I was over 18, willingly abstaining (until in college) as an actively dating atheist male. Figure that one out, false conservatives!:-) Funny, I haven’t seen many of them post honest input to the poll….
I’m not surprised, me, ultra-conservative christian (that’s how I was raised anyway), pregnant by 17, and my husband, atheist, abstained till well into his 20’s.
So our poll seems to be going about par for the Guttenmacher Institute’s poll.
PS- I’m no longer atheist and single, and as a Christian married father, I’m teaching MY kids to use condoms if they are stupid enough to indulge in premarital sex! It doesn’t take religion to make a values judgement FOR ONE’s SELF, and it shouldn’t have to take being liberal to see that abstinence-only and a pure world never existed and don’t work by themselves.
The thing with abstinence only is that, with kids, if you tell them they “can’t” or “shouldn’t,” they’ll do exactly the opposite. It’s the nature of the beast.
I think that’s why talking with your kids can go a long way. By that, I don’t mean telling them what and what not to do, but actually having a conversation (not an argument), using examples, humor, whatever works. Building trust is also important and something we don’t often think about.
My “talks” with my daughters usually just grew out of normal conversation. It wasn’t done at a set time and more often happened while driving somewhere.
And I know my oldest daughter is reading this, so I won’t say any more. *grin*
How about this as a solution to the gay marriage/civil union controversy?No more state “marriage” licenses; in order to obtain the legal rights now granted to marriage, a couple (gay or straight) would have to obtain a civil union from the state. Then, if they wanted to be “married,” they find a church. Keep in mind that some churches would be happy to marry gay couples.
Hey, I drove my date home and kissed her goodnight. I didn’t have sex with her, even though I found her to be very attractive. Why didn’t I listen to my hormones and just force myself on her? Hmmm? I wonder.
LOL!Since hormones dictate the actions of young people today, I guess you couldn’t prosecute any male rapists since rapists are just “motivated by their hormones.”
Liberals, Jerry Seinfeld funny!
Will Rape is not a crime of hormones, it’s a crime of control and fear and anger.
Peemom,and sex. You see, rape is when you force sex on someone. Why did you leave that out of your definition?
So whenever you have a rape case, the denfendant can just use the “Devil made me do it” meme. Only he’d blame his erratic hormones instead of the Devil.
:)
I disagree with the free love people because sex is definitely a big deal. “Free love” (which is really free licentiousness) was feasible when you older folk were growing up. We younger folk have AIDS to worry about. So yeah, sex is definitely a big deal because in this day and age my friends, sex is a matter of life and death.
Will you really don’t know much about rape do you?
If it were really just about being horny, that could easily be remedied by your own hand.
People who rape do it in order to inflict damage upon their victim.
Will,As my dear old daddy said about free love, you get what you paid for.But if you’re sweating bullets about STD’s instead of just taking the reasonable and proven precautions, maybe you’re really just afraid of the other things that sex causes, like committment.
I don’t know the statistics on it, but I would think “date rape” occurs far more than violence motivated rape.
Anyone know if such a stat exists?
are you saying there is much of a difference JM? Is it still not control over the victim?
In the eyes of the law probably not.
I’m just curious because I know their is a difference between a sexual predator than let’s say a 19 year old who took illegal advantage over his date.
Then you have the guys who slip ruffies into ladies drinks to have sex with them when unconscious. How is that violent? How is that about control? What does that have anything to do with anger? You presume to know too much Peemom.
JM,The 19 year old who takes illegal advantage of his date is simply a sexual predator in training.
Will,I always considered that something akin to necrophilia, but it’s still all about control.
I think you use “slippery slope” logic way too much.
Jed,Of course, the date-rapist is not at fault because he is at the mercy of his hormones!
:)
How is that NOT about control Will? Are you out of your mind?
That renders the victim totally in the control of the perpetrator.
Date rape, if the girl doesn’t give it up to the guy, he gets angry and takes it. He ignores the girl, because she ‘deserved it’ for turning him on or whatever.
Will you seem to make a whole lot of excuses for rapists, do you sympathize with them or something?
My take on masturbation:
95% of guys do it. The other 5% are liars.
Ok Pee, I didn’t know you were going Freudian on me with this because the topic is about how young people today are at the mercy of their hormones (which the liberals have said was the case on this thread) and are going to have sex irregardless of well, anything. If this is indeed true, then isn’t it plausible that rapists can justify their actions in any court of law by claiming that they rape women because they “can’t help it” you know because of THEIR HORMONES?
If it were really just about being horny, that could easily be remedied by your own hand.
Uhhh, Pee. Masturbation doesn’t hold a candle to intercourse. I’m sure everyone with a Y chromosome will agree with me on this one.
Just letting you know!:)
People who rape do it in order to inflict damage upon their victim.
I disagree. People who rape do it because they are looking to satiate their own sexual appetites, so it was in the rape of Dinah. These are the type of men who cast self-control to the wind and later make up excuses to justify their perverted actions. That’s when they say things like, “she wanted it, even though she was kicking and screaming.”
But if you’re sweating bullets about STD’s instead of just taking the reasonable and proven precautions, maybe you’re really just afraid of the other things that sex causes, like committment.
Jed,Condoms don’t prevent HIV. They only REDUCE THE RISK of contracting HIV. For a person to go about gallavanting around town with loose women (like the “free love” hippie drug-abusers did in the late 60s and 70s) is like playing Russian Roulette with a revolver with a round in the chamber.
How sad that you think men feel the need to hold down women and force them into sex for pleasure. That happens to be a turn off for most decent men.
I never said kids can’t help control themselves on where or when to have sex. But the nature is there for kids to have sexual feelings.
Willful sex and rape are two totally different things. It highly concerns me that you can’t differentiate between the two.
Read about the psychology of rapists. It is about control. The green river killer had a wife he could have had sex with, but he wanted to rape and kill women. BTK had a wife he had sex with, but that wasn’t the motive for his behavior.
The likelihood of getting aids with a properly used condom are pretty low, considering it is the fluids that transmit the disease.
Condoms do not prevent some other diseases though, where the skin contact in the entire area is involved.
Will got a date?
Bet she didn’t invite him in!
Or…..maybe she did and he declined for moral reasons. In which case, she now thinks he is gay.
JR,
WHoa! That was funny!You’re just about as deep as the drunken frat-boys I went to college with! Maybe if you thought with the head on your shoulders instead of the head in your pants, people might take you seriously!
Peemom,Now you are being intellectually dishonest by putting words in my mouth. I can distinguish between consensual sex and non-consensual sex.(i.e. rape) i gather you are somewhat confused as to what rape in fact, is. While control and anger are CHARACTERISTICS of rape, rape by definition is non-consensual sex. Rape can even happen between spouses, I suggest you read up on marital rape before you make your judgments.
By the way, while BTK killed, and masturbated on the dead bodies of his victims, took pictures of them (characteristic of a serial killer – “trophy-taking”) and fantasized about his victims while looking at their pictures in his shed, he never actually RAPED any of his victims.
In that case, yes, it is arguably about power and control. But technically speaking, BTK was not a RAPIST.
Now before anyone goes off on a tangent because of my posts, I do understand fully that if an adult has sex with a minor (even if it was consentual sex) the state will charge you with “statutory rape.” While this not be rape per se, it is a law that the people of this country adhere to.
The likelihood of getting aids with a properly used condom are pretty low, considering it is the fluids that transmit the disease.
Pee,If a man chooses to gamble his life on a piece of latex or animal skin, then so be it. He may continue to do so, and I will continue to think that he is a fool.
Will,”Condoms don’t prevent HIV. They only REDUCE THE RISK of contracting HIV.”
Actually Will, everything you do carries an element of risk, including typing on your computer. Considering that so far there’s been no proven case of HIV transmission with a properly used condom, I’d still have to say there must be other issues at work here.
“Rape can even happen between spouses, I suggest you read up on marital rape before you make your judgments.”
It’s as much about power then as it is with strangers or acquaintances.
Will, do a little research. Rape is a control thing. Just because you don’t see it that way, rapists do.
Will,I still don’t understand why you’re afraid of consensual sex, and at the same time defend rapists. Is this one of those Catholic things?
Hey Jed, a marriage license “IS” a letter of civil union from the state, and you do not need a church, just somebody who lives in the same county as the marrying couple whom is authorized to marry and a little cash.
Wise,If that’s the case, why does the state take orders from churches on who gets married and who doesn’t?The point I was making was that if marriages and civil unions for gay people are supposed to be equivalent, shouldn’t the law require that ALL couples get civil unions to obtain legal recognition, and leave marriage as a religious ritual of one’s own choosing?
Will I’m well aware of marital rape. The issues are still the same. Maybe this issue is hitting a little too close for home on Will, or his other personality.
By the way, domestic violence, also, very much the same.
PM,Isn’t marital rape simply an extreme form od domestic violence?Many years ago, I remember a bastard I knew telling about a fight he got into with his wife, which he settled by raping their 15yr-old daughter in front of her! NOT ABOUT SEX; ALL ABOUT VIOLENCE, HUMILIATION AND CONTROL! GOT THAT, WILL?
Jed –“Why does the state take orders from churches on who gets married and who doesn’t?”
It is domestic; the state does not want to be too involved and is very tire of being tied-up in domestic matters, also the state does not want go against the church’s belief system.If gay couples want to be married, they have to figure out how to do so without the state being involved.
Wise – but legally it is not possible for someone to get married without the state being involved, hence the line “by the power vested in me by the state of ____ I now pronounce you husband and wife”… The state is ALWAYS involved…
Oh, and PM – didn’t make it to marriage, but was older than 18…
And I agree that we should better educate our children about the consequences of sex. Telling them “don’t do it” almost certainly insures that they will… Especially teenagers since that period of life is largely about rebelling…
Wendy,Is it the job of schools to educate our children about those consequences? Do you want some teacher (whose ideals, religious beliefs, history…you do not know) explaining this to your child?
Jed, If I’m to believe all your tales you’ve certainly lead an interesting life. But you have a habit of taking an anecdote from your life and painting broad brush assumptions with it. Just like above, you knew someone who raped his daughter so all marriage is a form of domestic violence. WTF? Get a grip man.
Sal, Yeah, I have! I wouldn’t trade my life for anyone else’s! Bank accounts, maybe.I often use single anecdotes to illustrate a point, but rest assured many other observations have gone into building that view. The single anecdote simply saves space.PS. Marital rape is domestic violence, not marriage, although someone on here is bound to contradict me.
Nutz,It is the job of schools to at least begin the education of our children in most aspects of their lives. Religious education is the job of the churches.
KSGolfnut – Actually, yes, if it is the job of the schools to teach our children abstinence, then ABSOLUTELY I think that it is also their job to teach them what happens if they don’t abstain. I don’t feel that religion or any other belief system has anything to do with teaching children about pregnancy and STD’s. That should be reserved for the home life, where YOU should teach your children what YOU believe is best for them. I believe the discussion is on whether or not we should teach more than “abstinence only” in our schools – and for the record, yes I am a parent, and yes, I will teach my child my beliefs about sex at home, but I also feel that if we are going to push abstinence on them in schools, then we also need to make sure they are informed about what happens if they don’t abstain, and by that i mean the risks of teen pregnancy and STD’s and the like, not whether or not I believe you will burn in hell for having pre-marital sex… Maybe I am missing the point of your question, or maybe you missed the initial point of the thread….
Jed,So if a teacher had a baby at 17 while still in high school, and she tells her students that it’s ok to have sex and risk a baby because “I turned out fine”….
That’s ok with you?
Wendy,You hit it right on the head. I agree with you.
I want the school to teach abstinence and the the DIRE consequences of having sex. I don’t want some “hip” teacher telling my kid it’s ok to have sex.
Nutz,Did I say that? You need to brush up on your reading comprehension!
A friend of mine, back in Boston, recently pulled her twelve year old daughter out of school over her teacher’s promotion of a deviant lifestyle. The “teacher” in question is married to a negro and spent much time encouraging her 12-13 year old female students to follow in her footsteps, disgusting!
V.L.R.B!!
Jed,Why so testy? I just asked a question, and you failed to answer. I ask again:
Is that ok with you?
Nutz,If the teacher had a baby at 17 and turned out fine, power to her! And she may share her experiences when it’s appropriate; but she also has to look at all the ones who didn’t turn out fine. Education is about the combined knowledge of the culture. Exceptions to the rule should be duly noted- as exceptions!Does that answer your question?
Jed,You still didn’t answer. It’s yes or no.
…if a teacher had a baby at 17 while still in high school, and she tells her students that it’s ok to have sex and risk a baby because “I turned out fine”….
Is that ok?
Jed,I am not defending rapists. I am only pointing out the inconsistencies of your views on this thread. You have said time and again that people are going to have sex because they are powerless to their hormones. I am only saying that if that is truly the case, then one could argue that rapists are also powerless to their hormones. I don’t believe in the liberal’s idea that human beings are incapable of making rational decisions concerning sex. That is the way the liberals and Randy Scholfield come across as.
Will,I didn’t say people were totally powerless in the face of hormones, but I did acknowledge that hormones are quite powerful. You should thank your lucky stars they are, or you wouldn’t be here to make such assinine arguments! Several of us also pointed out that in cases of rape, sex is not the object; violence, humiliation and control are the object. Sex is merely the tool the rapist finds effective. Other forms of abuse use other tools to the same end.
goofnut
And just what example do you have of a teacher doing such a thing?
Nutz,No, it’s not a yes or no question. Like many other issues, it’s much more complex than a soundbite. I gave you my answer, and even that was overly simplified. You’ll just have to live with it.
Jed,I was being satirical. I don’t need to thank my lucky stars because I don’t see my life as anything extraordinary and the society around me is quite disappointing. I would be much happier living in the mountains, away from stupid people. Well back to the topic, the Guttmacher study claims that 9 out of 10 Americans have sex, but what percentage of that was consensual?
Junior,Fortunately, I haven’t encountered that with my kids, but they’re still young. However, I remember some pretty danged liberal teachers when I was in school.
Jed,The clear answer is a resounding NO.
Jed,I think you’ve got a backwards idea as to what constitutes rape. Like Peemom, you seem to think that rape is all about power and control, and sex is just an accident of the major premise of controlling someone. Well, anyone can dominate someone without having sex with them. Sado-masochism is not synonymous with rape. Why dont you educate yourself before displaying your ignorance?
Will,PS. If we all made rational decisions concerning sex, none of us would have it. Relationships, marriage and raising children are not something an informed person in his right mind would ever rationally choose. Way too many hassles, much too much pain, far too expensive. I am ever so thankful now that I was not rational then!
Jed,My argument is not with sex! It is with your concept of rape. Sex is a very beautiful and sacred thing which should never be taken lightly!
Actually, Will, you are the one who sounds ignorant on this – read the definition of rape, as provided by Webster’s Dictionary “Main Entry: 3rapeFunction: noun1 : an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force2 : unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent — compare SEXUAL ASSAULT, STATUTORY RAPE3 : an outrageous violation ” and further to illustrate, their provided definition of acquaintance rape (more commonly known as date rape) “Main Entry: acquaintance rapeFunction: noun: rape committed by someone known to the victim ”
In the instance of Rape, Sex is simply the tool that the rapist uses to inflict his violence, rather, it is his weapon, in the same sense as using a gun or a knife to cause harm to somone, a rapist uses sex…
And further for you, from Wikipedia – “Rape has been regarded as “a crime of violence and control” since the 1970s. According to psychological analysis literature, “control” is a key feature in most definitions of privacy:
“Privacy is not the absence of other people from one’s presence, but the control over the contact one has with them.” (Pedersen, D. 1997).”Selective control of access to the self.” (Margulis, 2003)Control is important in providing:
what we need for normal psychological functioning;stable interpersonal relationships; andpersonal development. (Pedersen, D. 1997)Violation of privacy or “control” comes in many forms, with sexual assault and the resulting psychological traumas being one of the most explicit forms. Many victims of sexual assault suffer from eating disorders, such as anorexia nervosa and bulimia, which also center around control issues. Therefore, some argue that it makes more sense to look at the issue of sexual assault as an invasion of privacy (Mclean, D. 1995):
The more comfortable a person is with talking about invasion of privacy and in insisting that he or she has privacy that deserves respect, the clearer that person’s understanding of rape will be…
Consequently, it is important to be aware of the approach of this subject of rape through the concept of privacy because of the historical background and the need to bypass certain stigmas.”
Will,I happen to know a couple of sado-masochists, and they will tell you that it’s completely the reverse of rape. It’s taking advantage of pretended domination and a link between pain and pleasure to have really great consensual sex! It’s certainly not my cup of tea- I’ve had enough pain naturally to do me nicely, thank you- but they seem to get along just fine with it.Rape is about humiliation and control and victimization, and is by definition NOT consensual. Those are key words here, NOT CONSENSUAL!
Will,I’m sorry you don’t find you life extrordinary and are disappointed with the society around you.I’ve had a quite fulfilling life so far, and enjoy greatly the dynamic, chaotic society I’m part of. Observing, thinking, tinkering with it and commenting on it has been one of my chief joys!I wish you the opportunity to experience the world the way I have.But if you can’t, and wish to retreat to your mountain top, be my guest. I hope you find something worth looking for there. Whatever it is, you will have brought it with you.
Wendy –That is just a line of words that Ministers like to use, they can say the most simplest – a quickie – “DO you, Do you…Ok, you’re married!”But you are right, the state is always involved, you go to the county clerk office, you pay $75 dollars for a license, you have 90 days to get marry, but the license is not official until a Minister that is ordain and register at a church signs the license.The license has to be returned by the Minister to the county clerk’s office within 10 days after the signing of the license.Therefore, in a sense, a Minister is only a Minister because a church say so and church is only a church because the state say so.All in all it makes you wonder why the Westboro baptize church is still a church.
Will scares me.
Ha! One of my favorite bumper stickers: “Remember when the air was clean and sex was dirty?”Talk to my parents about sex? You must be kidding!! YUCK!!You have to admit, when sex is “forbidden fruit”, it’s much more exciting!
Seriously, I wish birth control was in the water and people had to get a college degree and 4 yrs of parenting classes before they could get the antidote. Just think about all the problems it would solve.
Mary,Yeah, and then nobody would ever have children! I know if I’d had any idea what I was getting into….
Mary,If I had been that smart I probably would have had no children!! My mom said sex was your duty. I have to say though I did talk to my kids about sex and yes they rolled their eyes. Remember Judy thinking her boys weren’t having sex? And how hard we laughed at her?
PM,Will is young. If he hasn’t sewn it shut, his eye will soon be opened by experience, and all his nice theories will get shot to hell. Patience.
Y’know, the people who shout loudest about abstinence being the only absolutely sure way to prevent pregnancy are the ones whose entire religion is based on an exception to that belief.
I’m worried about a friend of mine. She has a 1 year old, a college degree, wanted to get pregnant, has no problem with income.
And she’s said to me many times now that she feels like a horrible mother, she doesn’t feel like a mother, she should have never been a mother and she really doesn’t even like being a mother. But she really is a great mom! Of all the poeple in the world, this girl did everything right- I could have only hoped to have been as prepared as she was.
I understand how she feels, because I felt that way for a long time too, but it makes me realize how very much everything plays out when related to pregnancy and motherhood, sometimes you just can’t tell how it will be no matter how rich or poor you are.
PM,Get your friend to a doctor, and soon! She’s showing symptoms of clinical depression, an illness that can be fatal if not treated.
I’m aware and I’m working on it. Trying to convince her to go see her doctor.This has been too long for just postpartum depression, which can be very serious too.
That’s the problem with having high expectations and always doing things perfectly….when life happens and the reality sets in, it can be hard to handle.It could even be a chemical imbalance, which happens a lot after giving birth. She’s depressed and should see a doctor ASAP. Don’t just try to convince her, MAKE HER GO.
Brenda, I talked to my kids about sex, but I could never imagine talking to my parents, they were older and I don’t think they even knew very much about anything. Sexuality was always something to be ashamed of and it was NEVER talked about when I was growing up, and my Catholic school upbringing only reinforced that. But, I was the rebel in my family, so I was determined NOT look at life the same way my parents did, and accepting my sexuality was the first step to doing things differently than them.I feel sorry for many of the people from their generation, all the shame and secrecy lead to a lot of sexual dysfuction and kept them from enjoying the beauty of a healthy sexual relationship.
The Gutt Institute is a pro-abortion group that funds all kinds of abortion studies across the world.
Randy Schofield is a joke for bringing this ’study’ up as fact and as something to base an opinion on.
Give me a break.
PM,Do whatever it takes to get her to a doctor! If all else fails, kidnap her! She and her kid could be in serious danger. Clinical depression is not something to fool around with.
Lovely. Made my day (which is saying something)