Remember the national furor last spring over the Colorado high school teacher who was caught on tape going off on President Bush and U.S. policies during class? Will there be a similar reaction to the New Jersey history teacher who was recorded telling his students that evolution and the Big Bang are not scientific, that dinosaurs were aboard Noah’s ark and that if you reject Jesus, “you belong in hell”? So far, it’s mostly been the student who complained who has been getting grief, with many other students and townspeople backing the teacher’s supposed First Amendment right of free speech. But as John W. Whitehead of the conservative Rutherford Institute noted, the free speech argument doesn’t fly. “It’s proselytizing,” he said, “and the courts have been pretty clear you can’t do that.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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For some people, religion is like a drug.It gives them a real high, and this particular drug also comes with instructions that you go out into the world and get everyone else on it.Of course, the more they take, the sicker they get, and the sicker they get, they believe even more that they are not sick and the world who rejects their rantings is sick and going to hell.Not at all what Jesus would do.Just my humble opinion.
OMG — could this be Phillkline’s next job when JoCo throws his ass out?
Dinos on the Ark? Cool …
Where oh WHERE are O’Reilly, Hannity, Rush, etc. on THIS outrage?
Oh that’s right. They only get outraged if teachers teach science. Teaching myth is ok.
Dinosuars on the Ark? The Ark itself?
That bozo should quit teaching and become a clown!
Racial equality and the holohaox are the biggest myths going and they are practically state religions.
V.L.R.B!!
The guy in Colorado was saying that the VICTIMS of 9/11 in the trade centers were ‘little Hemlers’ and deserved what they got. He had a captive audience. I think most people got up and slammed him (i.e. equal numbers of left and right, less the first amendment keepers). The ACLU and another high powered attorney stepped in. Don’t know how it turned out.
This guy is preaching religion to a captive audience. I don’t see it as being as offensive as the Colorado guy, but he is still wrong. These kids are pretty easily manipulated at this age and in a college environment. They should be taught what the paid to learn. No more, no less. Prof.s need to keep their politics out of it.
Ian, you really believe that the holocaust never happened or do you just enjoy being shocking?
While certainly the teacher was out of line, there’s more to this story. The student who recorded the lectures baited the teacher into the subject with leading questions. He’s the son of a local civil-rights attorney, looking for exposure and a payday.
Yea, the teacher messed up. But he had help.
Teachers tend to incorporate a lot of b.s., fairy tales and their own brand of proselytizing of whacko Noah’s ark theories or whacko liberal ideas on comparing victims to Nazis.
If controversial statements are made in a Public School venue, the proper place to address this is the School Board, not trial by Press.
I’m sorry to bust anybody bubble, but the right to free speech does not apply to primary schools.
It is an institution of learning and not a public venue. Students do not have the right to say what they want and teachers do not have the right to say what they want.
She should be repermanded for what she did.
“While certainly the teacher was out of line, there’s more to this story. The student who recorded the lectures baited the teacher into the subject with leading questions. He’s the son of a local civil-rights attorney, looking for exposure and a payday.”
Or maybe the student was just fed up with the teacher’s proslytizing. The student said that he was responding to things that the teacher already said. You don’t have special insight into this student’s motives (cynically trying to drum up business for his father). My daughter was once told by a teacher (a very good teacher by the way) that her parents were going to hell. It happens. The teacher has some professional responsibility here. The idea that the poor teacher was baited into saying what he said totally overlooks the fact that he has a professional responsibility. Students bait teachers all the time.
“Yea, the teacher messed up. But he had help.”
The teacher has the responsibility here. If he can not remain professional in dealing with his students even when “baited”, that is a professional shortcoming. Even John Whitehead isn’t defending this guy. That should tell you something.
From the linked article, the comments of a former student seem to indicate that this sort of thing had occurred in prior years, but the student had kept silent. While I concede the current student may well have baited the teacher, I don’t know this as I wasn’t present; and the comments of the former student causes me to wonder.
One difference between this case and the Colorado case (another idiot) is that CO was college, this one hign school. I tend to think of college students as being adults who can stand up for themselves. High schoolers are not.
Well the student had to have known that the teacher had said things like this before.
I had teachers who’d pull this kind of crap. Sure wish I had known about my rights back then.
Terry,Your comparison of religion and drugs is intriguing. Every cocaine user I’ve known (not too many- I try to stay away from them) flips back and forth from heavy duty dope to industrial strength religion. I’ve always wondered about the connection.
Terry,Your comparison of religion and drugs is intriguing. Every cocaine user I’ve known (not too many- I try to stay away from them) flips back and forth from heavy duty dope to industrial strength religion. I’ve always wondered about the connection.
There are Proselytizers of all ilks.Proselytizing just means to persuade. There are some liberal nut jobs that will proselytize their views on Global Warming, Pro-Choice, Anti-War and other agendas.
Proselytizing doesn’t just include the faith-based religions.
It includes fanatical opinions whose ideologies have in fact turned into a religion itself.
Sociologists and anthropologists see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. Primitive religion was indistinguishable from the sociocultura acts where custom and ritual defined an emotional reality.
There is nothing about a higher power or spirit being in that definition.
So when a religious zealot of Global Warming starts proselytizing their views, they put themselves in the same category as any other proselyter.
That is, preachy, sanctimonious and intolerant of those who oppose their views.
Except for one thing JM.There is plenty of evidence for GW and none for God.
I choose to believe in both,and not to preach either!
JM are you speaking about the school teachers who show Al Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth” to their students. And then tell their kids that Bush caused global warming?
I would agree!
Bush did not cause GW, he only denies it’s truth.
Main Entry: pros·e·ly·tizePronunciation: ‘prä-s(&-)l&-”tIzFunction: verbInflected Form(s): -tized; -tiz·ingintransitive verb1 : to induce someone to convert to one’s faith2 : to recruit someone to join one’s party, institution, or causetransitive verb : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause
I would not recommend Gore’s movie for high school. However, the far superior Discovery Channel piece might be suitable. They commonly use such commercial films for educational purposes.
I guess that means all of us here are proselytizing with each post.
Oops, there I go again.
No Tracy! He doesn’t deny it. He just said we must study more about the effects and causes of Climate Change.
Climate Change is dynamic and there are plenty of factors into it. But the agenda of many so called enviromentalist are ones of anti-capitalism and not really about the enviroment. They just pay lip service to it.
http://www.wunderground.com/education/education.asp
For a good general introduction to the issue.
Also, you can get all your weather reports including skiing conditions if you are traveling.
The issue here is if the Colorado teacher got slammed for his/her tirade then why not the New Jersey teacher for his/her tirade? Come on people, telling kids that their parents are going to hell is pretty arrogant thinking and totally uncalled for.
But the Religious Right has always believed in the mantra ‘do as I do and not as I do’. Otherwise, we would not see the likes of Ted Haggard.
correction: ‘do as I say not as I do’
correction: ‘do as I say and I will tell you what to do and do not forget to drop money off in the offering plate’
This is all just further proof that our government is incapable of providing a quality education.
Teachers aren’t allowed to be religious? They’re not allowed to have opinions? They’re not supposed to be ‘personal’?
Joe Williams,
Where does that money go? You people here imply that the Church is some evil empire bent to make money.
If you didn’t notice, churches are the ones pouring money and labor into thousands of charities across the nation.
Churches use that money to help members of their congregation in need.
Quit acting like they are out talking people into giving them money so the Church can increase it’s bank account.
The money also goes, in some instances, to build grand edifices; and in all instances, for the salaries of the pastors and administrative staff; utilities; ministers’ housing allowance; payroll taxes; and normal administrative overhead items. I am not saying the pastor(s) and staff should work for free, by the way.
no testicles, you cannot preach in public school. It is against the law. Teachers can be religious all they want on their own time. Not on the taxpayer dollar.
Nathan! I do agree with you. The majority of churchs and religious organizations do the vast majority of charity work. I would even say that 95% of them do the lord’s work.
But you cannot discount the bad apples in the church organizations that run mega-churches for the sole purpose of lining pocket books.
Let’s just take a few churches in Wichita. Why does a church need to spend $12 million for German crafted church bells? Why does a church spend millions expanding their church, giving their pastors $200k salaries and a Lexus to drive to work? Why does it sense the need to erect a 100 feet Golden Cross for everybody to see?
I don’t care! Churches can do what they want. But let’s just say that the churches won’t suffer before they give their discretionary monies to charity.
But effective charities are ones that have high ratios to money out from expenses. If you’re pouring out 90% to charity vs 10% you spend on overhead and expenses, that’s a great non-profit or charity organization and many do that. Many churches, however are in the very low ratio. Under 60% at best.
Joe,
You bring up a good point, but you fail to see what a church is and who makes the decisions.
If the church members all decide to pool their money together to buy a 12 million dollar german made bell then more power to them.
That is how things are done. They have meeings, they plan, they ask for donations.
Most of the time big side projects like that are donations on the side. People choose to give money to those things.
It doesn’t matter what the percentages are. Churches are not a charitable organization like Paws with a Cause.
Churches are a group of people who have different visions, wants, and needs.
Joe – I think the Catholics, with their abundant use of “slave labor” ;^) have a good expense ratio.
Again! Nathan, I agree with you. Churches can do whatever they want with their money. I have no problem with that.
But churches do have tax exempt status, just as charitable organizations do, and many churches do chartiable work or run and operate charitable organizations.
But there are plenty of people who start up churches for the purposes of enriching themselves, and using the tax exempt status is an unfair business tatic.
Let’s just say that I haven’t been to a church that hasn’t passed out an offering plate.
True Ben! But they do hold vast amounts of wealth. Actually the Chatholic Church is considered the largest land owner in New York City.
JW’s never did offering plates.
Just saying..
There was a box in the hallway, where if you wanted to help pay the bills and maintenance, you could do so there. It wasn’t something that we did in front of everyone like a big production to try to guilt you into giving.
What’s JW?
I think Vaughn covered this. Churches are not protected by law to be tax exempt.
Jehovah’s witnesses.
SolDevVB. Tax exemption is not a protection. It’s a status under the IRS code.
The only thing I notice about Jehovah’s witnesses churches is that they are small and they are built all the same.
Sol, what I earlier covered was that the tax exempt status of churches was not the result of the First Amendment. To bore all of you, churches are tax exempt organizations pursuant to sec. 501(c)(3), Internal Revenue Code, subject to the various provisions thereof and other statutory and regulatory provisions governing tax exempt orgs in general. Interestingly, (can’t give the precise cite at the moment), there is a reg which limits the ability of IRS to audit a church, compared to other tax exempt orgs, or normal taxpaying entities, for that matter.
I’ve never heard of Dinosaurs on the Ark. I’m wondering where this guy goes to church.However, it works both ways. He shouldn’t be blatantly in your face with his faith. As a Christian the way he lives his life should be as a beacon and then his faith would speak for itself.
Churches can say anything they want. They can even do political speeches, endorse candidates or whatever. Just as Vaughn was saying. Churches have every right to the 1st Admendment and free speech.
However! Under the tax exemption status of the tax code, religious organizations must refrain from political activity. It’s not stopping the churches from conducting political activity, it isn’t even against the law for a church to do it. It’s just that you lose tax exempt status if you do.
The teacher was baited?
Nonsense! The story clearly shows that this young student had tried to address the problem of this clearly delusional teacher.
I mean really. Noah’s ArK? Does any rational persom above the age of 4 believe that story?
This religious prosletyzing is more prevalent than is known. When I was a kid, we had a substitute teacher who would close the classroom door and talk this stuff. Us kids always found it kinda creepy.My own kid had a teacher that told him that rock and roll was the music of the devil and that if he listened to it or get this…grew long hair, he would go to jail and hell!
My own kid had a teacher that told him that rock and roll was the music of the devil and that if he listened to it or get this…grew long hair, he would go to jail and hell!Posted by: J R | December 20, 2006 at 10:46 AM
Tell your kids teacher that 1957 called, it wants its ethics back. :-)
JR,
I believe that Noah built an Ark.
As a matter of fact, I am just as rational if not more so than you.
As far as your little story goes… do you care to back that up with a name and school?
Well if you believe literally in Noah’s Ark then you are just plain nuts Nathan. At best, that is a very stretched parable.
The teacher in the story is off message. The flood is supposed to have killed the dinosaurs.
I do not have a name for the teacher in my experience. She is likely dead now. This would have been between 1972 and 1975. The school was Rea Woodman elementary. But as I say, she was a substitute teacher.
I can get the name of the offending teacher in my sons case if you would like. I ultimately had my son moved out of that class.
JR,
You say I am nuts… why?
I am prepared to have a rational discussion if you are ready to move past the name calling.
Nathan,So, Noah built a 300X50 cubit (cubit=approx. 18″) boat and managed to cram 2 each of something in the neighborhood of 10,000,000 species on board, along with provisions for a 40 day excursion and enough shovels to keep it cleaned out? Not to mention the problems with getting them all safely off that damn mountain, dispersed and properly supplied until natural food sources became available again. Seems a stretch!
Nathan,
I fail to see how we can have a rational discussion about an irrational story.
Jed,
You assume there were 10,000,000 species at the time.
Not only that, I doubt God had Noah place 2 of every species on the Ark in the way we think. Now days you could have a hundred species and they are all basically the same thing.
JR,
Why is it irrational?
Questions about religion come up all the time. *gasp* Even in the public school. Teachers do more than just teach. They’re mentors. They’re friends. They’re confidants. And that kind of relationship does not come without PERSONAL interaction.
Without a doubt, outside of my family, the most influential people in my past have been teachers/coaches. I look back at my HS yearbook, and my physics teacher wrote “A rope of many strands is not easily broken, Ecclesiastes 4:12.”
PeeMom says this is against the law.
JR, ksagnostic:
I’m not defending what the teacher did, far from it. I simply point out that there is, indeed, more to this story. The teacher was indeed baited onto the subject, though it apparantly didn’t take much baiting.
Of course, the teacher certainly should have responded with something like “That’s not relevant to topic here” and gone on with regular curriculum, but he didn’t, and at that point, he screwed up.
Simple. The truth or falsity of the beliefs (dinosaurs on the Ark, etc.) is unimportant and irrelevant.
Yea, he screwed up. But he had help. And I know students “bait” teachers all the time to get off-topic (boy do I know!). That does not excuse letting students do so.
I sincerely doubt that Junior is EVER ready to move past the name calling.
GMC,I don’t think he screwed up…IF he prefaced his comments with “in my opinion” or “it is my belief”…etc.
Sorry, teachers don’t have freedom of speech in the classroom. They’re paid to teach the district’s curriculum, and it’s doubtful that their U.S. History requirements include telling kids they’re going to hell if they don’t accept Christ as their Savior.
The teacher/youth minister is allowed to preach whenever, wherever he wants EXCEPT when the district is paying him to do his job.
The kid asked and asked to meet with the principal & teacher about the matter. Finally, he got the meeting, where the teacher *lied,* and *denied* ever having made those statements.
The principal was ready to accept the teacher’s word over the student’s, until the kid pulled out the recordings he’d made.
See http://forums.kearnyontheweb.com/index.php?showtopic=2955&view=findpost&p=36752
From that wascally wabbit himself, L. Ron Hubbard:`Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wanted to make a million dollars, the best way to do it would be start his own religion.’
Somehow that seems a little “cleaner” than selling heroin or cocaine…. but like all fun things I suppose all 3 could be abused. (insert smiley thing of your choice here)
A quick note to KSgolf… If any teacher did what I’m reading about, I’d be at the school having a serious talk with the principal, and probably going to the superintendent of schools. I might have to remove my kid from school and then sue the district to pay for a private tutor until that teacher either was disciplined and my kid transfered, or the teacher was removed from the classroom until (s)he could keep personal religious beliefs out of the classroom.
Faith should be a personal and private decision. In christianity there are specific instructions about not praying in public (to be seen by men), and in charity ‘..not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing…’
LTB (Lions, Tigers, and Bears)
I don’t choose to deny you your child like faith Nathan.
I DO choose that it is left for folks to wander into on their own and not taught in schools.
I can certainly understand a geography teacher talking about international geopolitical issues since that subject often has to do with how nations are formed. So there really isn’t a controversy. The fact that it was published in Newsmax pretty much tells you it’s a non-issue.
However, I don’t see how teaching fiction in a history class is relevant. Fitting all the millions of species of animals on a boat? Absurd and impossible. Heck, a global flood and no evolution would mean there would be no freshwater fishes. Now if it were taught in a science class to prove how religious claims are scientifically false I can see an argument for that. Dinosaurs on the Ark? That’s absurd since dinosaurs lived millions of years before humans and the two never met outside a Flintstone’s cartoon. It’s a sad day that fundamentalists teach their children that there really was a Barney Rubble who rode a dinosaur at the quarry.
With these nuts teaching in school it’s no wonder education is in such sorry shape.
Nathan,”You assume there were 10,000,000 species at the time.”
Well, which is it- creation or evolution?
First of all, not all churches are the same. There are good ones and there are some terrible ones. Unfortunately, the terrible ones have all the limelight and the loudest screamers, which makes them not attractive to those who they are preaching at.
Second, if this Christian teacher wants the right to voice his/her views, then he/she should have let any other person in that class to voice their views. Then that would be fair and balanced. Unless and until these evangelical Christians are willing to allow ALL religious views to be expressed, then I don’t believe evangelical Christians should voice their opinion.
So how do y’all feel about “One nation, under God” in the pledge?
Me, well sol I have no problem with it. But if it said something like “under Jehovah” or “under Zeus” I would have a problem.
Jed..
I know you like to study things, so here is the website that is probably responsible for all the dinosaur/ark information.You can peruse it if you like.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html
I have never seen what the big deal was about the One nation under God in the pledge. We are only acknowleding that there is a God and God goes by all different names in different religions.
But I do have a problem with prayers in school if they are strictly christian prayers. But if we were to allow any and all prayers, then I would still have no problem with that. But I don’t think you will ever hear of an evangelical Christian willing to let someone else’s prayer be said in school – they only want their own Christian prayer. That is where the debate comes in.
I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s and I do not remember ever saying prayers in school. I do remember the pledge but no prayer. And somehow we all got along. It’s called common courtesy and today’s society is lacking in any social manners, let alone common courtesy.
Sol, I feel it was added in 1954 to the original words of the pledge; I personally don’t care.
BTW, on the topic of saying the Pledge of Allegiance daily, playing the Star Spangled Banner before every ball game, etc., trivalizes both.
I recall reading (with respect to the National Anthem) that it became the practice to play it before baseball games during WWII; that prior to that time, such didn’t happen. What I wonder is what the cue was in those time to yell “Play ball”?
Sunny, I remember the enforced daily prayer at Whitewater, Kansas during some of the years I attended grades 1-7 there; while most of the students were of the protestant denominations or Mennonites, there were at least one or two Roman Catholics in the class, who were not too comfortable with the way the prayers were worded and delivered by the teacher. The years involved, i.e., when I attended that school, were 1956 through 1963.
As a young ‘un, it didn’t seem right to me; however, went with the flow.
Joe Williams,
Bush admits that our Earth is warming, but claims there is still a debate over whether it’s manmade or naturally caused.
That IS denying the very strong scientific consenses re AGW.http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Science/Skeptics.asp
Is Walmart “anti-capitalism”? They met with Al Gore, and their new buildings are 30 to 50% more energy efficient. Lower energy costs = higher profit.
“The Ark had plenty of room for all the animals, including the dinosaurs.”
I wonder how Noah fed the T Rex’s.
The Pledge of Allegiance is an oath.
As we do not allow minor children to enter into legal contracts, we have no buisiness having them swear an oath.
Interesting note about the Ark is that it is physically incapable of remaining afloat. It was split in two under it’s own weight. It would need to account for space for millions of species, fresh water and food including specialized diets. How could the Ark feed the ant eater with only two ants aboard and why weren’t the ants extinct afterwards? What did they eat when they got off since all life was eradicated from the planet? There’s a matter of where the water came from and how that amount of water could come down in such a short amount of time without the pressure just wiping out everything on it’s own, including the old geezer and his non-seaworthy boat. There’s the matter of sanitation and air circulation to be addressed. Water life would have been wiped out. The coral reefs would have been destroyed and freshwater fish would have gone extinct.
There are just so many problems with the fictional ark story that it’s beyond plausibility. It’s just another one of those disproven Christian tales that belong on the shelf with other fairy tales like the Three Little Pigs and Hansel & Gretel.
How many of y’all played football? I didn’t play anyother sport, so please let me know if y’all did the same.
One of our coaches was a retired chaplin. we said a prayer before each game. Prayed for our team, their team, and of course victory.
I was Catholic and the prayer given was a little odd, but the meaning was the same.
In high school, they’d say a prayer over the load speaker. All of these were done on the home owner’s dime.
Not a lot of protests.
Guess the teacher was a little different. She didn’t say a prayer, she spoke her beliefs to specific things. Devil is in the details.
** over a load speaker at the stadium.
Those who complain about the prayers are often harassed, bullied and/or beaten. Christians aren’t a terribly friendly lot towards non-believers or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Do you have any examples Doug? Haven’t heard of that before. Just curious.
There are the riots in 1844 Pennsylvania where people were beaten by mobs, churches burned and such. There was a case a couple years ago about a Jewish student who objected to prayers and being required to write essays praising Jesus was was beaten. However the case doesn’t need to be made. You have the right to pray, but you don’t have the write to have the government endorse your religion. I know it’s hard for fundies to obey the law but they have required prayers in Iran and Saudi Arabia so you can always go there.
sol – generally such prayers are ‘generic’ rather than sect-specific.
Back to the pledge: I attended the dedication of the new Mosque up by K-96. They had Cub Scouts and Girls Scouts to the flag ceremony and pledge. It was sort of funny watching the scout leaders trying to keep the kids’ lines straight etc – typical scouts! And they did the pledge “under God” just like the rest of us do.
Back in the 50s-60s we had required King James Bible reading and Protestant version Lords Prayer every morning in school. Wrong then; wrong today.
When I was in kindergarten, there was this one little girl. I’m pretty sure she was foreign. For whatever reason, she would not stand or say the pledge. We were terribly cruel to her. The teachers kinda ignored that more than they should have. She wasn’t in the class more than a few weeks. I’ve always wondered if our treatment and ostracism of her caused her parents to look for a more welcoming and open minded school.
For those that are arguing that Noah’s Ark was impossible, there is one thing you’re forgetting. God told Noah to build the Ark, God created the animals, and God is the one who created the flood and the Earth that it flooded. God is all all-powerful and all-knowing. He can sustain any creation or being for as long as he wants. Yes, Noah’s Ark and the surrounding events would be impossible for man to do, but not for God. Obviously you don’t believe that and I’m not going to change your mind, but pulling out all kinds of scientific formulas isn’t going to change Believers’ minds either. It’s like a child who believes in Santa Clause, you can explain it all away with numbers and science, but if the child believes, he believes and there is no changing that.
Just a couple of logical fallacies to point out. You cannot posit an ark and a global flood, and then contend that it couldn’t happen because the boat would have split apart, or they would have run out of food. Surely any god capable of creating and flooding the entire planet could hold a boat together. Also, feeding miracles are abundant throughout the Bible (for example Jesus feeding the 5 thousand).
Second, there is one word in Hebrew translated into earth, ground, dirt, and so on. It is impossible to tell from the Hebrew whether the writer meant the entire globe, or the entire land (insofar as the writer knew the ground to exist). Let us hypothesize an ancient writer who had witnessed the Atlantic spill into what is now the Mediterranean sea. If that person lived in the middle of the basin, had divine instruction to build a boat, and then witnessed the flood, what would he think happened? He would probably write that the entire “eretz” flooded, and he would be right. Do not project impossible linguistic carryovers as errors.
There are many arguments against a global flood, and several against the straits opening at the time of Noah. Please use the much better arguments.
My friend Sol: I’m still trying to figure out what a “load speaker” is?:)
Yeah that God of you alls was sure ACTIVE early on. Building stuff and tearing it down. Popping in to visit with folks. Making rules and then changing them. Guess he musta got winded! Seeing as how we don’t see or hear much out of him recently!
HAHAHHAFat finger. Forgot to spell check.
“Ian, you really believe that the holocaust never happened or do you just enjoy being shocking?”
IO believe the word is stupid, not shocking.
Got it right dusty.
The prayer is more generic for ball players, but it still must offend someone. Just a case of majority rule?
JR just because you don’t “see or hear much out of him recently” doesn’t mean that he doesn’t exist, it just means that you haven’t opened your heart to him. He is active in everyones’ lives. His actions may not be as large (i.e. parting the Red Sea) and are often explained away by “technology” but he’s there.
Wow dudes, is this the drug thread?like, imaginary dudes who ain’t imaginary and cool stuff like that?Wow, like, cosmic man.
In Noah’s arc, t-rexes ate the dinosaur plant-eaters; the bloated t-rexes were eaten by the ship rats which multiplied several times during the voyage.
Actually, the Bible thumpers have their own built-in justification for their beliefs. If one does not have faith, then one does not truly believe. So all of us non-believers are at fault – not their Bible.
With this in place, then these Bible thumpers are never wrong.
What a concept.
God probably used the same machine from Honey, I Shrunk the Kids to shrink the animals.
Makes about as much sense as anything else does.
Definition of FAITH: Belief that is not based on proof.
Saying inappropriate things in any classroom is wrong. We send our kids to school to learn the basics, reading, writing and arithmetic. When I started college I was amazed that every professor I had wanted to change the student body socially. Consequently we are turning out students without enough job savy to fill out a credible resume’ but they can get on a blog and call Christians every crazy name imaginable and bash them endlessing while patting themselves on the back for being so tolerant. The teacher was wrong, Ward Churchhill was wrong – does every thread have to turn into a Christian bashing session?
Because you’ve got people like that preacher in Tennissee having a fit because the Governor sent out a holiday card with the picture of a Muslim girl on it.
That’s why grm. We’re going to fight back against the religious rights agenda to push a specific personal faith onto the rest of us.
Lets see that is one nut in Tennessee, one crazy rabbi in Seattle, one teacher in what ever state and there are how many Christians in the world?
Oh and I forgot to mention the six imams who tried to scare the people on that flight last week.
According to the web link from Sam, Noah spend 120 years building the Ark, God brought him all the animals that breathed air and all the aninal hibernated during the flood.
Now, I am in my mid-fifties, and the thought of having spend all my life building a boat and only being half done would get me a little upset.
Now if God brought Noah all these animals, including Dino and his friends, why didn’t God just GIVE Noah an Ark, rather than have the poor sap spend a buck twenty building the damn thing?
And just our of curiousity, when Noah released all the animals, what kept the tigers from eating the deer (they must have been really, really hungry after 361 days at sea) and what kept Dino from eating Noah and his wife?
Also, the website says that amphibious animals (seals, alligators, etc.)were not on the Ark. If they weren’t, where did they rest or did they just float on their backs for 361 days?
And after all that, who did Noah’s family mate with, since all mankind was killed by the rains? Did they commit incest?
Inquiring minds want to know.
BTW – Who did Cain and Abel mate with, also?
“Oh and I forgot to mention the six imams who tried to scare the people on that flight last week.”
They were not trying to “scare” anyone – they were saying their prayers.
The passenger that complained and the airline overreacted.
What makes me angry is when Christians can call everyone that disagrees with their beliefs all kinds of names but the rest of us are to just sit back and let these Christians whine and moan about being persecuted.
When I see Evangelical Christians practice what they preach and start letting other religions have their symbols and faiths expressed, then and only then will I respect the Christians. I’ve seen too many hyprocrit christian leaders to think that any of them are sincere. They just want their political power back.
Good questions, WSClark, when I was attending Catholic school as a child, I would ask the same kind of questions, the nuns would say it was a supernatural mystery that we won’t understand until we get to heaven. If fact that was their pat answer for most things they couldn’t explain and didn’t seem to make sense.I believe the bible written in metaphors in an attempt to teach lessons, those who take the book so literally have their heads in the sand, most likely they use it as a weapon to judge others rather than as a guide for their own lives.
I just wonder if Cain and Abel were the first gay couple.
Stuff like this dude in NJ and the other dude in CO…and countless others that go unreported – exactly the reasons why our government should not be in charge of our schools.
I am a rational person, I belive the Bible is God’s Word, and I belive it happened the way it was written. I think its you liberals who have drank the kool-aid.
So, if the Bible is God’s Word and it all happened the way it was written, Ken, who did Cain and Abel mate with?
The Bible does not mention any other children of Adam and Eve and does not mention any other “created” beings, so how did they reproduce?
And if Adam and Eve had female children that were the partners of Cain and Abel, wouldn’t that be incest?
It says in the bible that Cain married a woman from Nod, a nearby city. So there were other people on the earth already.
But you never hardly hear about that.
Questions like this got me kicked outta Sunday school!
Awwww, that was going to be my line, P Mom!
Where did the women from Nod come from and what was Cain doing hitting on them?
Was there a single’s bar in Nod where the Adam boys hung out?
Was the “closing time” rule in effect?
Where did Cain and his new bride go for their honeymoon?
Who caught the garter?
Inquiring minds want to know.
actually, since they were jewish, didn’t they have to smash a glass and carry them around on their shoulders in chairs?
Did they even have glass making abilities by that time?
Man, our drug addict is hittin’ the reefer hard tonight.
Hey that’s a good point too, did Noah have to carry all that knowledge on how to make the wheel, fire, tools, etc?
Who performed the circumcision on Adam?
And why?
“drug addict”
Marijuana isn’t an addictive substance.
But it sure is a lot of fun!
Let’s just hope that the people who believe in such nonsense as ‘god just held together the impossible to float boat’ don’t work building airplanes. Who needs all the rivets and bolts when god can just hold to plane together?
It’s no wonder fundies love to dumb down the science standards. When it comes to the physical laws of nature that disprove fundy nonsense or the Bible which goes in the face of reality, the fundies prefer a reality impaired worldview.
Of course if god could have done all these miraculous things then he could have zapped all the bad people out of existence rather than slaughter all newborns, animals and plant life. He could have even given Noah a cordless power drill. Or he could have created fallen angels without human DNA so they could breed with humans. Either way you cut it the story is beyond absurd and someone climbing up a princess’ hair is a more plausible story.
Bear with me, I am coming in late to the discussion.
I would like to address all these “questions” about the Bible.
Where did Cain get his wife?
First we need to establish that Adam and Eve had many children.
Genesis 5:4
After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.
Next thing we need to establish is that man was not as imperfect then as he is now.
When God created man he was perfect, man lived to be very old.
Incest was not a problem at the time of creation as it is today.
The idea that Cain married a family member is perfectly fine.
The bible is a book of fairy tales and really should not be taken seriously by any person who refers to themselves as rational or thinking.
Yeah, the Bible has mentioned a couple of times there isn’t a problem with incest. Of course in another location it says anyone who commits incest has performed an abomination to god and must be executed. It must be an example of those “objective” morals.
Thankfully rational, objective science informs us about the inherent (pun intended) danger of incest and the harm it causes upon the genetic pool. So while the Bible says incest is okay and intended by God, godless science says it’s wrong.
Lets address some of the questions about the flood and the ark:
What did the carnivores eat?
Well, before and during the flood people and animals were vegitarians.
The real question we should all ask is why should the Bible be considered as absolute truth?
Because the Bible says that it is the truth? Convenient.
If I write a book (and I have) and I say that every word is absolutely true, would you believe me?
I think not.
Why should we believe the word of the Bible and not the word of other ancient texts?
Why are the ancient Israelis more credible than say, the ancient Hopis or the ancient Mayans or the ancient Apaches?
What gives the Bible authority while other historical records are dismissed as being mythology?
The ancient Jews claimed that they were God’s chosen people. Who made that determination?
The ancient Jews – how convenient.
Why should the Bible be the voice of authority when all other anceint written philosophies are discounted?
What about the Greeks or Romans or Chinese?
Or why can’t we just find truth in reality?
Doug,
Again, you fail to use this thing called perspective.
The Bible never said incest was ok for all times, it was ok for a period of time.
And once again, when incest was happening man was perfect in his creation. Over time the DNA has become more imperfect.
At some point incest was wrong and thus proclaimed to be wrong.
I wonder how evolution and science explains the population of man we have now? At some point even sceince traces man kind back to a common ancestor. Who did he breed with and who did our common ancestors breed with, according to your beloved scientific theory of evolution?
Evolution occurs in populations so it’s a non-issue. The same pool of genetic stock was available at all times. But there’s no need to change the subject as is a typical creationist tactic.
Now the Bible doesn’t say when having incest is okay and when it isn’t. Using the Bible as a moral guide I can simply say that whenever I commit incest is an acceptable time. If your gods wanted to give the impression incest was wrong then your gods could have created a large number of people and it wouldn’t have been a problem. DNA and godless science do tend to put a cramp in old fairy tales don’t they?
I am just amazed that people who don’t believe in the creationist theory will believe from nothing mankind evolved, our solar system just came to be even though it is perfect in it’s design. The sun is exactly where it has to be, etc… I don’t mind that you believe any way you want to. What I don’t understand is that from a group of people who tells Christians they must be tolerant of all types of diversity comes the most intolerance of all.
Who ever said mankind evolved from nothing? That’s simply a creationist strawman. If the solar system is perfect then why is it a meteor can wipe out all life, 99.9% of all places in the universe can kill human life? Why too much exposure to the sun produces a harmful cancer that can kill us? I wonder where you get this naive view, is it from lack of education or refusal to get educated?
BTW, the creationist myth is absolutely absurd and no creationist has ever presented scientific evidence to support it. That’s why they teach history and not science.
Nathan<—also believes in Bush
There are thousands upon millions of galaxies and solar systems. There are billions upon billions of stars, all of which could be a “sun” supporting a planetary system. The most distant star from Earth is over 13 billion light years away.
And that is just the star furthest from the Earth that has been discovered so far.
The odds of there being other life supporting planets is almost absolute. Does the life on those planets also believe in the Bible?
Christians<—justify their exploitation and success on the backs of others as ordained by God.
Did God create life on other planets? If so, do they recognize Him as God?
Sorry, WSC, I didn’t see your post before I typed mine. Like minds, and all that?
Scary, RD, scary – I’m checking myself into the loony bin now!
Sarcasm……
Doug you are dodging the question. Evolutionist theorists think that everything came from some gigantic bang. Creationists think that a superior being, God, created the earth we live on. Which of these can be proved. Neither. So belief is the only difference between me and you. As for my education – I’ll compare mine with yours but I also believe that common sense cannot be taught and in our higher learning institutions most of the professors spend their time doing exactly what you are doing – trying to make those who believe differently than they do look ridiculous. Feel as you feel, believe as you believe but let me make the choice of what I believe without your bad mouthing all the time. Do you have ulcers? With all the angst you have I can only imagine how much stress you are under all the time.
ksgrm<—makes her living enslaving others. Just as the bible ordains! :(
No I am just content to do my thing and allow others to do theirs. :) Try smiling – in gets your endorphins moving.
Doug,
You can clearly find when incest became wrong. The law was laid out in leviticus and even deuterononmy.
There is no confusion or misinterpretation except for those who purposefully try to distort it… like you.
ksgrm, if you think the laws of thermodynamics have changed then by all means present your case. However, you claimed life evolved from nothing, then you change to the issue of abiogenesis. It’s clear you don’t know what you are talking about so it’s best we stick to the subject. Creationists on this Blog have revealed a huge lack of knowledge about evolutionary theory and there is no need for me to repeat what your kin have refused to learn.
It’s clear you can’t defend your mythos so you want to change the subject. Is that your way of admitting the Bible is little more than a book of fairy tales? Since you claim it just takes common sense then present some here and inform us about the great benefits of incest that “creation science” encourages us to engage in.
Nathan, you know full well that God created humans to engage in incest. His first command was to be fruitful and multiply and that didn’t indicate with whom. Then later your God finds the one righteous man in Sodom who was quite quick to have sex with his own daughters. A righteous man does that. Then there’s your Noah myth where Noah’s family engages in incest and Noah was a righteous man.
So does your Bible say that only righteous people can engage in incest? It would appear so but it may just apply to everyone.
I’ll think I’ll just start calling you the ‘artfull dodger’. You use a lot of words and say absolutely nothing. Evolution is a theory. I am going to give you give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know what a theory is. An unproven scientific fact.
RD,
We have nothing from God to indicate he created life on other planets nor he did not.
I tend to think that he didn’t create life on any other planets based upon why there are other planets and the universe as laid out in the Bible.
Doug,
I have studied evolutionary theory. Instead of lobbing your typical insults, I am more than willing to discuss it with you.
On the flip side you still seem incapable of understanding how things change over time.
At one point in time, when man was created perfect incest was fine.
Later on, as the imperfections in man came to a certain point it was determined incest was bad.
It is still wrong. No one teaches it is ok.
How much more clear do I need to make that for you?
Sorry ksgrm, you don’t know the definition of a scientific theory. The subject is a teacher preaching about his religion including the myth of Noah’s Ark. It is you who is trying to change the subject because you know your myth can’t be supported by any scientific fact, but facts can certainly, and they have disproven this myth.
Doug,
Since we are on the topic of evolutionary theory, how did life begin?
ksgrm<—-”I’m justified in exploiting others. God has ordained me to use them”
Nathan<—ashamed of his beginnings. Finds solace in condemning others.
Thank you Doug, that is the question I was trying to get him to answer. Maybe you will have better luck. Gotta go.
Nathan, man was created perfect? So do you have anything to support that humans were created like clay figures in which the gods blew life into them as indicated by the Greek myths? And how would you measure the perfection since you don’t have any originals on which to base your conclusions upon. Then how about the entire lineage of the human species? Which stage in human development are you referring to?
Creationists make a lot of claims but they never actually support them as was indicated in your last attempt to avoid the issue on a previous thread.
Sorry Nathan, the subject is Christian myths that the teacher was promoting. Creationists always want to avoid actually supporting the myths they want to sneak into the classes. Once again you have proven you have no scientific support for your myth so I’ll ignore your comments until you actually produce some.
Doug,
The occurance of sedimentary rock all across the world is one piece of evidence pointing to a global flood.
One can interpret the different layers of rock all over the world to the a global flood.
If you take different types of rock, dirt, and sand and put them in water they settle in layers.
There are several thigns which can be interpreted to support a global flood.
Geology doesn’t support a global flood, in fact it debunks it. Try learning about something before mocking it.
Doug,
You first bash me for not understanding evolution. It was not an attempt of mine to change the subject. Merely my offering to show you that you were wrong.
Doug,
I have studied geology. It was one of the more fun classes I have taken.
If you would like to get into the details of it, I am more than willing.
Instead you simply say Geology debunks it.
If that is as far as you want to go in having this discussion then all of your comments should simply be that evolutionary theory contradicts the Bible and I am wrong.
It appears as if you are not actually interested in having a discussion about this after all.
Doug,
I can offer you no more solid proof for man being created perfect than you can for life being created from nothing.
Following this blog, no wonder this state is infested with the moral right.
How can you show that I’m wrong by a complete lack of understand of everything you speak of? If you can find dinosaur fossils on the same strata as humans you might have something, but that would be an impossible find since the difference would be millions of years. Radiometric dating would add to why you are wrong. Then again, there’s the issue you presented but doesn’t account for angular unconformities, granite batholiths and varves. Arguing for the flood through geology is perhaps the worst thing you could do.
popup,
As cute as you probably find yourself to be, you are quite wrong.
Care to actually join in the discussion or continue with your simple untruthfullness?
Sure Nathan, present me your perfect human. I’d love to see that fossil, or perhaps you have a DNA sample. This should be highly amusing.
As for life coming from nothing, who ever made that claim? Seriously, you ought to stop with the strawmen, it just makes you look more pathetic.
Doug,
Radiometric dating is based upon an assumption.
Nope, it’s based upon scientific fact. If you care to prove a large part of science wrong then I’m sure the entire scientific community would love to hear you debunk atomic theory. It could certainly solve our nuclear waste problem.
Doug,
Instead of constantly saying it is a strawman please explain to us where life began?
Doug,
Since you are so smart, please explain to us how radiometric dating works.
It is based on assumption.
I don’t know where life begins, but I’d still love to hear you debunk atomic theory and present us with the perfect man. That sounds amusing.
Radiometric dating is consistent with non-radiometric dating methods, as well as other radiometric dating methods. You just don’t like the results so you deny that it actually works. I don’t know why you claimed you took a geology course without actually figuring out radiometric dating. This is high school stuff.
However, established science is pretty much supported, but your claims aren’t. So you bear the burden of proof for presenting some revolutionary new conclusions. So far you make a bunch of claims but you can’t support them. Is this going to be another thread of you making absurd claims but avoiding actually supporting them?
Doug,
How do you know how old cambrian limestone is verses jurrasic limestone?
Off the top of my head those time periods are about 300 million years apart.
Doug,
Let me explain it to you:
Radiometric dating is based upon assumption.
The assumption of the initial amount of contamination, the level of contamination, and the overall rate.
Doug,
But how do you know they are 300 million years apart?
The limestone from one period is the exact same as the other.
Decay rates are consistent, it’s not based upon assumption but observation. So if all these various methods of radiometric dating are false then what sort of dating method do you use to measure something like the age of zircon crystals?
Doug,
I am still waiting on what sceince has to say on the beginning of life.
Sorry Nathan, if you say something is from one age and another is from another age you can’t conclude they are from the same age. Even your questions don’t make sense. I know you don’t believe in the ages of the Earth only because you think the planet was created a couple weeks ago.
When you mention that scientists make a bunch of assumptions it’s apparent you are projecting. You are the only one making assumptions based upon mere whims.
You know you asked me the same question on the origins of life weeks ago. Now you ask me again. So it’s clear you are incapable of learning since things must be repeated to you. Is it some medical condition that prohibits you from learning?
Doug,
Decay rates are based on an observation of things now, not in an environment thousands to allegedly millions of years ago.
Like I said, an assumption.
Do you know how far off those dating methods can be if the assumptions are of by 10%?
And that is only on the rate of decay.
We have yet to discuss level of contamination and initial levels.
Doug,
I have talked to many people and have done many things since last week.
I don’t know what you said.
I do know that right now you refuse to address the question.
Why is that?
It is real easy, how did life begin?
Yeah, some measurements of something millions of years old can be off by a few years, so what? The rate of decay is still consistent.
Contamination isn’t a problem since various samples from different locations can be taken. This is common sense. I really doubt you took any courses on geology since this is common knowledge in any scientific study.
Do you intend on boring me by demonstrating how much you don’t want to know?
Nathan, I addressed your question on the origin of life weeks ago, you are just unwilling to read apparently. I’ve already explained to you about Miller/Urey’s experiment, the formation of proteins, yadda yadda. If it’s your intent on boring me by repeating high school science then mission accomplished. Do you ever read books?
Still waiting on your scientific evidence which you refuse to present.
Evidence of “god” =0
Well I’m going to sleep. Someone wake me up when a creationist actually can scientifically support their claims. Somehow I feel I’ll get well rested in the meantime.
Nathan! God bless you for your faith. I admire that. But you can still be a Christian and believe in the Science of evolution and the ancient age of the earth.
To be blunt! The book of Genesis is a fable. I’m not discounting it as a valuable book in history. It is! But in those days, people just made up explainations for the orgins of life. It’s the greatest question we all ask: “Why are we here?” “How did we get here?”
In those days they didn’t use scientific processes to come up with logical answers. They still thought the world was flat and the Sun went around the earth.
Science and religion has not mixed very well since those times and even today. Many scientist, astrologist and chemist were shunned for their work by religious leaders and they either killed them, excumacated them or expelled them to leave to another region or country.
They same menatality is still in play today with evolution. Christians don’t want to be wrong. And I understand that! It gives off the perception that your faith is not infaliable and when it comes to God and the word of God, you can’t make a mistake or people will stop believing.
Were all just human. Don’t worry about it. When Pope John Paul II appoligize and pardon on behalf of the Catholic Church that they were wrong about shunning Leonardo De Vinci, nobody ran away from the faith because of that.
I know I cannot convience you Nathan about what I’m going to say. You won’t go to hell if you accept evolution or know that the Bible is a series of fables, folklore and written histories by number of authors who work is selected by the cannonization of the church.
Be a Christian for yourself and as an example of good person in our society. It’s a great belief and displine. But you don’t literally need to interput the Bible as the word of God and believe what Pastors and Peachers tell you that the Noah’s Ark and Jonah swallowed by a Whale is true and really happened in real life.
The Word of God is to be wise and knowledgeable. The Bible in its time and still today gives great wisdom and knowledge about how to live your life to the fullest. But it isn’t literally the actual voice of God who told people to write the words down.
I just want to say your faith is not compromised because of science or evolution. Just be wise, knowledgeable and a good person. I know that is what you are.
Peace!
Nathan,God is timeless, and we do not know how long God hovered over the formless earth before He created light and the first day.It could have been for billions of years for all we know.. there was no time to measure.
Joe,
I agree with what you say about how we should live, but one should not discount the power of God. Just because the stories of the Bible cannot be explained in human terms, they are entirely possible for the Creator of all things. It just takes faith, and to try and scientifically prove that they happened is to deny the power of God. So, instead, believers should just believe, and non-believers should let them! After all, neither can anyone prove that the events did not happen!
Nathan and ksgrm you guys are my heros. You both made very intellectual and spiritual arguments to immature people who are unwilling to open their minds to the possibility and determind to put down those that disagree with themselves so that they can feel intellectually strong. I believe that God gave us brains so that we could learn about ourselves and our world. That is why I believe that faith and science (including medicine, technology, engineering, etc.) can go hand in hand.
Back to the original subject: I don’t believe the teacher should have been teaching that “material,” but I don’t think there is anything wrong with a teacher saying for example, “today we’re talking about evolution, but there are other possibilities out there, including creationism.”
So AFN, you are in favor of teacher’s teaching that the Holocaust never happened?
No, like I said, this guy shouldn’t have been teaching anything about the ark, but there is nothing to stop a teacher from mentioning that there are other points of view out there as long as they aren’t pushing them on the students.
People think the Holocaust never happened and you said you don’t have a problem with teaching unsupported ideas in the classroom next to scientifically proven theories. So what’s the difference? There’s scientific evidence for evolution and there’s evidence for the Holocaust, yet you’d have no problem with teacher’s teaching the opposite of what’s fact. So why the double standard?
Do you not know how to read?!?!? What I said, not once but twice, was that I was NOT supporting those ideas being taught, BUT that it wouldn’t hurt for those issues to be mentioned so that students know that there are other beliefs out there. I believe this can make students more tolerant to other ideas. There is a HUGE difference between acknowledging other ideas and teaching/believing those other ideas.
So you think students should be more tolerant of Nazi ideology? How many millions of people died to bring an end to that fascist empire? And you just want to spread it among our youth. Next you’ll probably want to test some racial eugenics crap to present the idea that Blacks are intellectually inferior or that they are the spawn of human/demon breeding. How about schools be used for education of facts, not indoctrination of whatever crazy idea religious zealots dream of.
Let’s talk about creationism extensively in school.Philosophy class.Mythology class.Comparitive religion class.Bible as literature class.Okay?
Nazism is not a precise, theoretically grounded ideology. It consists of a loose collection of ideas and positions: extreme nationalism, racism, eugenics, totalitarianism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, anti-communism, and limits to freedom of religion.
It’s not exactly fascist,but they do share some ideas.
Doug,Would you please pull your head out of your ass for one moment so that you can actually read what I am writing, not read what you want me to say so that you have someone to argue with.
I am saying that students need to know, IN GENERAL, that there are other ideas out there not just what is written in their textbooks. And I believe that if we tell our students that not everyone believe the same thing, our students will not be so intolerant of each others’ beliefs in future generations as our generations are. And I’m speaking in very general terms here, not just about Noah’s Ark or the Holocaust, I’m talking about everything. There is nothing wrong with pointing out in a history class while discussing WWII and the Holocaust that there are people around the world (however crazy they may be) who don’t believe it happened. That doesn’t mean that the students will start believing it to be true, it just means they will be more prepared when they are confronted with that fact out in the real world. We teach students about black segregation and slavery in history, those are horrible things, but just because we teach that it happened doesn’t mean that students will start believing it to be the right way to do things.
Tracy, that list kinda sounds like Christian fundamentalism here in America.
I do agree with creationism being taught in mythology class alongside the other creation myths throughout history.
Segregation and slavery actually happened, Noah’s Ark didn’t. There’s a difference. Now if the teacher were to mention how the Christian myths are myths not grounded in fact and reality the religious zealots would cry Christian persecution and demand the teacher’s resignation, or as we have seen in Kansas they’ll beat him up on a dirt road.
The appropriate place for your Christian myths would be in mythology class alongside the Norse, Greek, Native American and other mythological tales that are as equally true as what’s found in Genesis.
Thanks for making my point for me – there is that intolerance of other peoples’ beliefs coming out.
Doug, yeah it does.Not funny if you’re a fundie.
AFN, the kids in our school have no problem being inquisitive, in fact they get credit for participating and questioning everything.That’s how science works.
And besides, I think you’d have to look for quite a while to find a kid in high school who hasn’t heard the biblical version of creationism. The fundies have created a problem out of thin air,again.Anything to keep the evangelicals proselytizing.Make up some evilness where there is none.
AFN, what % of americans are christian?The persecuted majority?Hmmm…….
Tracy,Out of thin air? This post started with an article discussing the issue.
I never said we were persecuted. Now you are putting words in my mouth. I believe that both “sides” of this issue and millions of others are being equally intolerant. That’s why I think that if we brought these things up in schools, maybe future generations will realize what all is out there and possibly (hopefully) be more tolerant of others and their beliefs.
This goes back to the responsibility thing if you ask me. The PC thing too.
Out of thin air..that’s in reference to the ID “controversy”.
AFN, christianity is everywhere in my little town, I’m a christian.There’s VERY FEW people in this town that aren’t. All the kids know what’s out there. More of them are religous than when I was there. They have clubs, meetings, prayer meetings, a lunch program, etc.What I’m saying is that the kids that this guy was confronting,well, they know all about religion.They don’t need his preaching, and certainly not his condemnation.
Once again, I’m not saying that any of these things should be taught (or preached) but I am saying that it doesn’t hurt to share other beliefs in a classroom. I’m glad that is how you and your town are, that is great but not every town in America or even the world is that way. I’m not even just talking about Christianity here, but every subject out there. What is wrong with pointing out that other people had different thoughts or beliefs on different subjects? There is a huge difference between being told that there are people who belief or think one thing and being taught (or preached) that believe.
Oops, that last word was supposed to be belief not believe.
Tracy is right on!This isn’t about letting kids know there are other viewpoints; they already know there are, and are free to look into them if and when they feel the need. This is about coercion, about the right to bully, and the right to suppress opposition to a particular religious doctrine. And the right to build a gullible customer base.
The new ‘pc’ is now RC.religous correctness.And the fundies are the ones who are the complainers.If I believe that the earth is millions of years old and evolution IS God’s plan,well, they’re on that like stink on poop.I say I’m a christian and they say I’m going to hell (just like the guy in the subject post), because I’m not RC.
So… Are you trying to call me a coercionist and a bully? Or are you speaking of this so-called teacher?
AFN, we do agree!I believe that every christian in our town SHOULD KNOW that Jesus Christ is also a prophet of Islam.It’s time for the hatred and seperateness to end.
AFN, I’m not accusing you of anything.Now that I understand your position, I have no problem with it.
Thank you Tracy, I also believe that down deep we both agree on this issue:)
I should have specifically directed the “accusation” question towards Jed for saying: “This isn’t about letting kids know there are other viewpoints; they already know there are, and are free to look into them if and when they feel the need. This is about coercion, about the right to bully, and the right to suppress opposition to a particular religious doctrine. And the right to build a gullible customer base.”
Tracy,It seems like, for lack of a better term – the opposite of a fundie – raise more hell than anyone. The Ten Commandments in a government office?
If the ‘leftists’ – not trying to label, hope you catch my meaning – are so hell bent on defining the intent of Separation of Church and State then why don’t they cry foul that our money states In God We Trust and that God is printed in several of the founding father’s documents?
AFN,I am referring to those who continually attempt to preach their religious views in public schools. That includes the ID’ers, the prayer in schools crowd, the teachers who “share” their religion, and the students who proselytize. And not just christians, although they seem to be the major offenders in this country.If a teacher or student is asked about their religion, they may give their church or denomination, or they may decline to say. Much beyond that is proselytizing, and has no place in public schools.If you wear your religion on your sleeve, save that shirt for places where you don’t have a captive audience of other people’s children.
AFN, I think Jed was referring to the guy in the topic.However it could also be a broad generalization.In any case, I wouldn’t take it personal.Here on the blog, we’re kinda like the old cartoon with the sheep dog and the wolf. We fight each other all day long, then at the end of the day we clock out and can be friends.
Sol, yes.It’s a two way street.Extremism comes from both sides.
Sol,”If the ‘leftists’ – not trying to label, hope you catch my meaning – are so hell bent on defining the intent of Separation of Church and State then why don’t they cry foul that our money states In God We Trust and that God is printed in several of the founding father’s documents?”
I believe they have, on several occasions, and sued to have “Under God” removed from the Pledge of Allegiance.
And the money you have in your pocket. If you are so vehement in your Get God Out stance, why is it you keep the cash?
Sued over the pledge? It was my understanding from the coverage that was some oblique attempt by a desperate father to get custody of his daughter.
Gotta scoot. Catch y’all later.
Sol, money doesn’t stay in my pocket long enough for there to be an issue! :)
Seriously, there has been litigation in the past over “In God We Trust” appearing on money. Now, I’m going to be lazy, and not research the name of the case with the SCOTUS opinion holding this not to violate the First Amendment, but will encourage you to do so.
Sol,I don’t keep cash; I get rid of it whenever it comes my way, which isn’t often!
About the only good thing about having God on the money, besides showing how interested religion is in material possessions like wealth, is it reminds us when this nation fell under fascism and people were persecuted and had their lives destroyed by religious nuts like McCarthy. The God in the pledge reminds us that fundamentalists have no problem with plagerism and theft if it’s in their God’s name.
As for the teacher he wasn’t expressing a different viewpoint, he was preaching. There is nothing in a history class where a teacher needs to preach that a student is going to hell if he doesn’t repent and worship Jesus. If only there were some place people could go to express their religious views and have religious questions answered for them by representatives of religion. We could call them churches or temples of mosques. And there we wouldn’t have government employees on the taxpayers dime so everyone could freely believe in whatever nonsense they want to. Wouldn’t that be a great idea so we can leave those in school to actually learn about subjects like history and science.
If only someone had thought about that earlier that way they could keep the state’s business separate from the church’s business.