The Johnson County Republican Party just thumbed its nose at voters by installing outgoing Attorney General Phill Kline as the county’s new district attorney.
It’s an interesting way to build party support — prop up a demonstrably unpopular politician overwhelmingly rejected by voters.
As Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said of a possible Kline pick, “I don’t think they’re listening very carefully” to voters, who clearly sent the message in the last election that they don’t like what Kline’s selling. A mere 35 percent of Johnson Countians voted for Kline in the attorney general race.
This is a partisan political appointment based on far-right ideology, not qualifications, which Kline abundantly lacks for this prosecutorial job.
The post will allow Kline to continue his campaign against an Overland Park abortion clinic — and provide a platform for future face time on Bill O’Reilly’s show.
But Republicans pursue activism-as-usual at their own risk. Johnson County Democrats have to like their chances against Kline in 2008.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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214 Comments
What was the margin of Morrison’s last victory for the office of Johnson Co. DA? Them’s going to be some pissed-off voters.
Conservative whackjobs seem to be laboring under the delusion that their views are actually popular with the electorate. I don’t expect that this will change, even when the sane, voting public of Johnson Co. turns on Phillll Kline, as they surely will.
“Republican activists chose Attorney General Phill Kline. . .” (from the AP story) Is that really journalism these days?
Besides, welcome to real life. If either of the major political parites thought they were really accountable to the ’stupid masses’ they wouldn’t do have the things they do.
What is it with conservative Republicans who try to find the least qualified person for a job? You’re doing a heckuvah job Klinny.
In the famous words of KFG;
hehehehehehe
Hank
And we are surprised by the GOP for this decision? Their party really do take care of their own.
Hank- You nailed it!!
Close vote …
“The tally among Republican precinct committee members who gathered at a Lenexa church was 316 for Kline to 291 for Steve Howe, who is an assistant district attorney in Johnson County.”
Reflects the split in the Party I think.
Kline still retains the possibility of being outed by the voters, should they rebel and demand his firing. But hiring him for the job in the first place? Shows the mentality of some of these morons.
It’s KC.
Who cares?
Its also the most conservative county in the US with a major population…. It was halfway expected, Johnson County will grow only more conservative with time. I’m glad I’m not there nor will I ever be..
Whether you like Phill or don’t like Phill, this is relatively meaningless. It’s a DA job; it doesn’t impact Wichita; it’s interim.
The DA isn’t an integral part of the county political structure (when was the last time heard Nola mentioned re: local democrat strategy?). Who cares?
Phill is likely the best candidate to do what the county requires of a DA - manage the prosecutorial branch of district law enforcement.
Let it go, people. Or better, let’s talk about something meaningful - is or is not Hooters degrading to women?
hehehehehehehehehe
It does matter because the abortion clinic there serves farther than just JOCO. And that is really what this is about, come on.
I wonder if clinic bombers are going to get off scott free now that they know there is little chance they’ll be prosecuted fairly.
And yes, Hooters is degrading to women.
It does matter because the abortion clinic there serves farther than just JOCO. And that is really what this is about, come on.
I wonder if clinic bombers are going to get off scott free now that they know there is little chance they’ll be prosecuted fairly.
And yes, Hooters is degrading to women.
Republicans: Thank you for your continued efforts to alienate everyone but the radical right zombie-wing. Your obvious disrespect of the vast majority of voters in JOCO will pay dividends for the Democrats in the near future. KUDOS!
OOps I mean to post that women are free to use their bodies to do degrading things…I have no intent on stopping them from that. I just think it’s degrading.
Clinic Bombers?
Can you even tell me how many clinic bombers there have been?
I bet you can count them on your fingers.
You act like they are some common occurance.
Clinic bombers and others who want to be just pain in the butts to the staff.
Say one of the nuts wants to start following the nurse or something. In a normal county, she could get him charged with stalking. Not in JOCO anymore.
pol_mom,Wow. You can see into the future. What an awesome skill.
Do you have any proof of:
Kline supporting a law like that?
A Law like that being implimented now because of Kline?
Any proof of what you say at all?
I know of abortion protesters that see nothing wrong with following the kids of clinic workers. This is totally insane people. And yes there are more potential clinic bombers than we are aware of Nathan.
It is that cavalier attitude of Nathan and other abortion protesters that encourages such illegal behavior.
If you have a problem with abortion, then do something about it. Not protesting in the street. Why don’t you try to rebuild families - and not just the heterosexual couples. I mean real families that love and take care of their kids. Start on the issue of child abuse, domestic abuse and making employers pay a living wage.
Those are just a few suggestions that would make a difference rather than just protesting Tiller’s Clinic and making a spectacle of yourself with that stupid abortion truck.
Sunny,
“And yes there are more potential clinic bombers than we are aware of Nathan.”
Really? If “we” are unaware of them then how do you know?
I don’t have nay cavalier attitude. I think protesting at the abortion clinics is a waste of time.
I have serveral friends who are wonderfully nice Catholic girls who go protest Tillers clinic.
All they do is stand there and sing songs and pray holding signs.
Just as you try to demonize all abortion clinic protestors I am simply trying to say that it is not as bad as many here portray.
If Phil Kline does not like abortion he should not have one.
JR,
And if you don’t like people driving down your street gunning little kids down…
you shouldn’t do it yourself.
“I have serveral friends who are wonderfully nice Catholic girls who go protest Tillers clinic.”
They’re probably doing penance for having abortions.
Sunny makes excellent points. There are ways to reduce the need for abortions, but naw, that’d be too hard. Education and birth control- why not protest the church for shaming women into needing an abortion in the first place?
Phill had to get the job to keep himself looking like a viable candidate in the future (since his run for governor in 4 years is all but derailed). The odds of him being reelected in 2 years is slim - and he has to know that. Look for him to run for the U.S. House againt Boyda instead.
GayMafia, that makes sense; he had a close call,though - 316 to 291.
Nathan
That comparison betrays you as a zealot.
A woman exercising control over her own body does not equate with mass violent crime.
JR,
The analogy was right on par with your little statement.
Of course you couldn’t see the forest through the trees…
Thank you JR, I didn’t quite know how to word it, but you did nicely.
If the woman had control over her body, she wouldn’t be pregnant.pmom-What more education is needed? Everybody knows how it all works.
Education that some women cannot use hormonal birth control. Education that birth control does not always work. Education on HOW to make it as safe and reliable as possible.
JR,
At what point in a womans pregnancy do you feel that the “fetus” is it’s own body worthy of protection?
I think you guys have me pegged all wrong.
I am all for abortions.
As a matter of fact I think women should be able to abort their children all the way up to age 18.
Could you imagine how much easier it would be to control your unruly kids?
All you have to do is say:
Son, If you are not home by 11pm I might just have to abort you…
Dear J R,
Your post betrayed your ignorance. Nathan’s merely made the point.
I still love ya, you continue to make us look good.
Hank
G.Mafia: Now that Kline is again a resident of Johnson County as of a few days ago, if he decides to run for Congress, he would run against Democratic Congressman, Dennis Moore. Moore represents Johnson County and was a former Johnson County county prosecutor. He is well thought of in Johnson County and I think would be difficult to beat. Dennis Moore’s father was a long time attorney here in Wichita so I presume Dennis was raised here.
But you are right about the fact that Phill Kline’s election for the remaining two years of the Johnson County prosecutor’s term does change the dynamics of Kansas politics. Kline could conceivably run for Kansas Governor in four years, or a Kansas Senator’s position if Senators Roberts or Brownback decide not to run again, or … (just joking) even back to the Kansas legislature where Kline once served.
Nathan-When the baby can stick those scissors in the back of the neck of the doctor.
blah blah blah Nathan. 1% of abortions are done past 20 weeks. Give it a rest.
Ok Nathan!
Let’s play your little analogy game.
I feel no need to carry a gun. Therefore you have no reason to either.
See how it works?
I do not believe many externally viable fetuses are aborted. Do you have proof otherwise?
pmom-That’s parent’s job. Does the goverment have to do everything?
Jr, If I did the world a favor and put a .44 thru you’re skull I shouldn’t go to jail because abortion doctors kill kids every day.
Dear JWink,
Kansas law allows you to run for any Congressional seat regardless of your residence.
Hank
Only when religious freaks tell you that sex is WRONG and using birth control pills will send you to hell.
Nathan is the last person who should be spouting pro-life propaganda, when his job is to kill people. And it’s justified- just like the women being justified in saving their own lives.
Pol_mom. Saving their own lives? A little dramatic isn’t it. They are shirking responsibility for their actions.
There is nothing wrong with sex and nothing wrong with birth control. There is something wrong with creating life, on purpose or by accident, and killing it because you don’t want to ‘deal with it’.
JR,
You said it is a womans body, so she can abort away.
So, carrying your statement to it’s logical extreme would mean that it is her body up until delivery of the baby.
Which is in itself flawed.
The whole idea that abortion is ok merely because it is a womans body is assinine.
You basically concede this fact because you refuse to even address my question.
Political Mom,
What Pro-Life propaghanda am I spouting? Are you that scared to actually engage in a discussion with me that you feel the need to try to belittle my comments as propaghanda?
LOL
As far as my job being to kill people… well, I am indeed trained to do that. However, the people I am trained to kill are “bad guys.”
They don’t teach us to shoot helpless unarmed children.
I don’t advocate the killing of innocent people… like, oh, lets say helpless unborn children.
sol
Was that a threat?On this forum, death threats are taken very seriously.
I have much the same attitude as to you by the way. I shoulda let you continue to be Paul.
Daddy Hank zealot does not make zealot Nathan any more reasonable.
Abortion of viable infants is a myth.
I have a hard time believing we need to be spending more money on sex education (i.e. options, birth control, etc.).I think there are plenty out there. I’d be interested in knowing the % of women that are having multiple abortions (i.e. using abortion as birth control.). That should be a moral outrage no matter what side of the choice fence you are on.
JR,
So being “viable” is the determining factor in a unborn childs life being worthy of protecting?
That is also an assinine argument.
Just as the unborn child is unable to survive outside of the womb, the born child is unable to survive without constant care and protection.
I bet if you left a newborn baby laying on the floor it wouldn’t be very viable either.
So which is it JR?
Is it the womans body argument or the viable argument?
Can you stick with one standard or do you just make it up as you see fit.
Please explain to us all, what exactly it is you think that makes the unborn child (or fetus if you want to call it that) ok to abort.
Hey jr!Poke him in the eye with a sharp stick. That will show him.
Better yet, poke him in the back of the neck, pry open the scissors and suck out his brains.
Hank Price; Are you certain a Kansas citizen can run for any of the four Kansas congressional seats? Or is the candidate required to change his voting address to the district he wants to run in. As you know, Phill Kline switched his voting address to Johnson County from Shawnee County (Topeka) only a few days ago.
Coincidentally, I discussed this very issue with Bud Hentzen, Mr. Sedgwick County Republican, at a WIBA luncheon at noon today. We thought that congessmen must live in the district they run in. I suppose from a practical point of view that is usually the case. But the U.S. Constitution probably doesn’t specify so perhaps you are correct.
And yes, Hooters is degrading to women.Posted by: political_mom | December 12, 2006 at 01:45 PM
Yes but the wings are awesome.
JWink, you are correct; see Article I, Section 2 (second paragraph), U.S. Constitution. However, and I do not know whether this is true, the House could have a rule requiring a member be a resident of the district s/he represents (see Article I, sec. 5, para 1), but I doubt such exists.
Nathan, Hank, Enema, whoever. This isn’t about you ’saving’ unborn babies, it’s about controling what other women do with their bodies. Carrying a baby affects EVERY cell of the woman. We are NOT merely incubators and giant walking wombs. There are MANY reasons women choose abortion. That is HER decision. Not yours.
And that IS the bottom line.
Should have thought of that before going ass up, face down.
Actually, should have said Hank was (partially) right; see above citations.
Also, those guys who are the bad guys, think that you are the bad guy.
It’s all in your perception.
And I would say, you are on THEIR land, killing their people. Innocent ones too.
Political Mom,
So your stance is that you couldn’t care less if the unobrn is really a life or not, it is simply part of the woman at the time and if she deems fit to destroy it then that is ok.
So, why stop at her being pregnant?
Are you saying that after a child is born it is no longer a factor effecting a womans life?
There are many reasons I can think of for a woman to choose to kill a baby after it is born.
If life is not the factor then why is birth make a difference?
And your point Political Mom?
The good lady that ran against Tiahrt was from Overland Park, I think. Maybe.
Anyway, she wasn’t living in the 4th.
Hank
Nathan?
The truth is that my position on abortion is more compassionate than yours.
I find abortion a failure of society. You seem to regard a baby as a punishment for an act.
Remember, I used to be on the other “side”.
Where is your compassion for the BORN? Where is your outrage that MANY on your “side” use this issue as a political football while actually doing nothing at all?
Hank Price,
What are you talking about? Tiahrt ran against Garth McGinn–a man–who most assuredly lives in the Fourth District.
http://www.topix.net/forum/com/lsi/TAR29QACJI5BC1CBF
Try Google. It works.
No Nathan, at the point where it is outside of the mother’s body, she does have other options. Nobody LIKES abortion, but JR is right, there is more to it than just the death of a fetus.
I DO care of the outcome of unwanted children. I care when they’re dumped in dumpsters, burned, abused, neglected. The stress on mothers who cannot provide, or WILL not provide. Then there are the babies who are very ill, or the mothers who are very ill.
Just leave the women alone for their decisions. It is their life, not yours.
JR,
You presume to know more about me than I have ever revealed.
This discussion is not about you or I on a personal level. I am trying to discuss the issue of abortion. Which you seem to be dodging like a school kid on test day who didn’t study.
I have never said one word about any “act” when talking about abortion.
So, if you are through trying to assume things about me you don’t know, can we move onto discussing abortion?
Which argument is it: viability or merely a womans body?
Nathan, you can’t just pick one thing and say THAT is the only point involved in this topic.
You cannot. It is multi-faceted, intertwined. Usually there isn’t just ONE reason a woman chooses abortion, there are many.
When it comes down to this- it is MERELY the woman’s body, decision. Because not all circumstances are the same between women. Viability or not.
Ha. Like Nathan would ever concede the right to abort a fetus that isn’t yet viable.
Political Mom,
It is their life, not mine…
So at what point does the unborn child become a life someone should be concerned with?
Dear CF,
You have GOOGLE? WOW!
Plug in Joy Holt and let me know what you find.
Hank
Polical Mom,
When does the unborn Child become a life worthy of protecting?
Oh, to be a Lib-They are forced to defended the most outragous and ugly things.Abortion
Clinton’s rape and lies about what sex is is.
Rights of terrorists
Welfare
Higher taxes
Defeatism
The Mary Jo Kopeckny murder
Gerry Studs
fleetwood - I do not defend rape. As for “what sex is” that was defined by the judge for the deposition. Terrorists have no rights; SUSPECTS however need to be adjudicated. Welfare should be minimized. Higher taxes are needed to pay off the debt you ran up. Defeatism is what we have from YOUR elective whim-based invasion. What is YOUR plan for victory. I notive Bush is now delaying his promised before-Christmas speech until next month at the earliest.
When it is wanted Nathan.
Lets do an exercise.
Say Nathan has a wife and 3 kids at home. He comes home, his wife gets pregnant again. Now being the good christian family they are, his wife is a stay at home mom, and no job skills, a high school diploma.
Nathan goes back to Iraq and is blown to bits with an IED, but it doesn’t kill him, it leaves him a quadriplegic.
At the same time, Nathan’s wife finds out that she has a rare bleeding disorder, and that carrying this child carries a 75% chance of killing her and the child.
She loves this child, she wants this child. But being unemployed and with a laid up husband and kids she needs to care for (ya know, all those FABULOUS government resources)…they’re broke, they’re depressed, and desperate.
Tell me Nathan, are you gonna ask your wife to die and leave you and your children virtually parentless? You know your children will have to go live elsewhere, and you will likely end up in one of those FABULOUS VA hospitals for life.
Oh and you only have a few days to decide, because there is a time limit- she’s already 19 weeks pregnant.
Political Mom,
So your answer as to when the unborn child becomes a life is “when it is wanted?”
So, with an answer like that it is ok to kill the kid when it is 2?
Let’s see, while we’re building this incredible scenario, can we throw in a visit from King Kong? And..and..and…maybe Superman can play, too.
I think abortion should be off-limits as a topic. People feel the way they feel. Ain’t noboby gonna change nobody’s opinion.
Done. Now - Hooters anyone? I’m buying the wings…
They got pretty good chili hotdogs too!
Hank
Hey CF,
Got your GOOGLE working yet?
hehehehehehe
Hank
I think abortion should be off-limits as a topic. People feel the way they feel. Ain’t noboby gonna change nobody’s opinion.Posted by: KSGolfnut | December 12, 2006 at 04:10 PM
Now that’s the most intelligent post I’ve seen in a while.
Even as a pro-lifer the idea that a Supreme Court decision somehow banning abortion is going to solve the problem is fantasyland.It’s a matter of the heart and that is what really would need to be changed.Change the hearts and minds and you eliminate the need period.
Nathan,”Can you even tell me how many clinic bombers there have been? I bet you can count them on your fingers.”
Well, there are at least two convicted clinic bombers living right here in Wichita. Must be more’n that in Johnson Co., since there are more people there. And it only takes one to kill a lot of people, as you must be finding out in Iraq!
Nathan,I hope that you and your partner are blessed with only planned and wanted pregnancies.
Truth is life happens. Consensual sex can end up in unplanned pregnancy (various reasons). PeeMom is right, pregnancy affects a woman’s whole body. It can exacerbate existing illnesses or health problems.I think that probably every woman reading this blog has dealt with an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy - self, friend, family member. We as expectant mothers are the ones who are shunned when we choose abortion (whatever the reason), we are the ones who deal with the stares and whispers as we show up for Church unwed and expecting. (You know good girls don’t get knocked up.) We are the ones to raise the children. (Face it most children that live with one parent usually live with the mom)All this blame game of you’re a bad person because you had an abortion is silly. Every woman who’s aborted has a story - usually they see it as the only way out.
As for the theory that some women have abortions as a form of birthcontrol. Talk to a woman who’s had an abortion - see if it’s really something they want to go thru more than once. I understand it to be a rather emotionally traumatic experience.
Shit, the libs would have to have a heart concerning abortion in the first place.
Pregnant and just don’t want to be? No Problem! Come on down and we’ll get rid of that pesky baby for about $200….in about an hour too!
Nathan when the child is two it is no longer en-utero. Or I’d certainly hope not. In that case it’s a living breathing being and needs to be given to someone who wants it.
I realize the scenario is a little over the top, but I wanted something that might apply to him. The idea that his wife having a bleeding disorder isn’t so out of the ordinary for a reason for abortion. Would it make you feel better to say ectopic pregnancy…the chance of that is 100% death certainty if not removed. And the odds of having an ectopic pregnancy are pretty good too.
I am King.Abortion is legal for three months. Period. After that, it is only allowed for the health of the motherand for rape and incest.Period.I am King.Be nice to me, or I will put you in a camp.
Come on now Nathan, We’re WAITING for your response. What would you do…tick, tick, tick.
Hank Price,
Sure enough. Libertarian Party. Who’d have thunk it?
Crow is mine, sayeth CF.
Nathan is signing up to be my co-King
Nathan was probably called away. Much as I was. And I only have a second now. I will return later.
fleet? assuming you are not being trolled you are king alright. king of the twits.
Wow Nathan backed out of this conversation really fast.
I guess he didn’t want to have to think about what kind of reasons there are behind abortion.
Especially if it related to him and his family.
p-m - I suspect that, given where Nathan is, he got called away rather than “backed out”
Alright we’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, but he has to answer the question when he comes back.
Wrong Google CF
Kansas Reform Party
Hank
It’s past Nathan’s bedtime.
Hank
What time is it hank?
Hank, correct me if my old man’s memory has betrayed me, but IIRC, there is a +9 hr delta between ICT and Iraq (in general), thus making it ~2:22 a.m. 13 December there.
I’m pretty sure your right, as of now, mark…3:05am Wed in Iraq
Hank
It gives Philkline another 2 ywara ro find new public teat. How fucking ridiculous can you get ????I still think he should take Rader’s job in Park City! That dumb bastard couldn’t get a REAL job!!
***years to. Sorry.
He (Kline) got 35% ! BTW, so did Danny Divito and his running mate, Rosie O’Donnell! This is unreal !
Oops, sorry again — Rose O’Dykie!
Hey now, be good to Rosie. No need to be like that.
Talk about a waste of a thread.
Nothing accomplished.
It’s on Johnson County. I could care less.
No, I was not trolled. My solution (to the abortion question) is perfect and I am King.Or will be soon enough.GolfNut-It would be a waste of thread, if it didn’t turn out that we have found our new King.
JWink -
Tiahrt had a Libertarian candidate this time who lived in Kansas City. I think (and I’m not sure) you have to take up residence if elected.
But . . . what’s to stop Phill KKKline from moving his residence back so he can run against Boyda? He’s an opportunist.
Enough Kline bashing already! The Eagle got him defeated as AG, so lets let it rest, Scholfield, for crying out loud! All the abortion supporters are hoping that Kline will move to Nigeria and never be heard from again. Let a man stand up against evil and see how the media and all other crazies go crazier. Give it a break. Phill will emerge standing tall!
enema, you’re just a psycho!
Robinson, standing up against evil? Give me a break!
Enema reminds me of the guy who was all jacked up, walked into the store, began hurling cans of Alpo at people screaming “YOU WILL BE MY DISCIPLES”
You are king. OOOOKIE DOKIE THEN.
Fleet,Why is it that libs have no sense of humor?
It’s hard to laugh when you’re the joke.
Hank
hehehehehe
The only joke here is that Golf believes that people like him.
Well, other than you Hank.
Hank and Testicles, you two might wanna get a room. Beware of egos.
After effects of drinking gilly juice from the torpedoes Hank?
I feel sorry for ya.
fleetwood is an A class whack job and the joke of the blog.
Golf is the Troglodyte of the blog.
Good company your keeping these days? Or….clinging to the few who still hang from the rafters?
LOL
GMafia: If the Libertarian candidate was a fellow named Mr. Mork, I believe he lives here in Wichita.
I think I’ve figured it out. Testicles is going for that Rush Limpball essence.
Hank,
Perhaps you can help fleettwood (aka enema) find out who allegedly dropped an Oreo cookie that rolled to the stage during a 2002 campaign debate in Baltimore.
If not, then you, and fleet are the big joke.
hehehehehe
You guys are killing me here.I don’t even know what the topic is anymore.
Hi Kia lol
We’re talking about nothing really.
Dear J R,
Never drank the juice, it will make you go blind. (I did eat the cherries though)
Hank
You guys are killing me! It wasn’t a Libertarian candidate, it was a ‘Kansas Reform Party’ candidate.
Her name was Joy Holt and she lives in Kansas City.
Garth wouldn’t debate her, that’s why you probably don’t remember her!
Hank
Those of us hoping for Kansas sanity, can only appauld the selection of Kline as the Johnson Co. AG. Those radical nut-job Repubs are only hoping to destroy the GOP in Kansas. I say “bring ‘em on”…
The thing is how much damage Kline will do in the meantime.
Look at how much Bush has hurt the nation. Look how far it had to go before people woke the hell up.
And some here are STILL snoozing.
Again: who is stalking whom?
Everyone,
Simply because someone doens’t immediately reply to one of your posts doesn’t mean they are running away.
It was late, I was tired. I am in a completely different time zone here.
Political Mom,
I will address your questions, but I aske that you also address mine as well.
Lets go line by line:
“Say Nathan has a wife and 3 kids at home. He comes home, his wife gets pregnant again.”
No problems there.
“Now being the good christian family they are, his wife is a stay at home mom, and no job skills, a high school diploma.”
This is where you venture away from actually trying to make apoint on abortion and try to insult Christianity.
My parents are Christians, my Mother has 6 degrees and a doctorate. So enough with the stupid insults.
“Nathan goes back to Iraq and is blown to bits with an IED, but it doesn’t kill him, it leaves him a quadriplegic.”
Could happen.
“At the same time, Nathan’s wife finds out that she has a rare bleeding disorder, and that carrying this child carries a 75% chance of killing her and the child.”
Now you introduce a variable into the equation which hadly compares to most abortions in this country, that being: If the woman carries the baby to term she has a good chance of being killed.
This is a very important side topic, but has nothing to do with abortions as a whole. I have always said that when it comes to either the womans life or the childs life it is not the governments place to decide who lives.
So we will continue:
“She loves this child, she wants this child. But being unemployed and with a laid up husband and kids she needs to care for (ya know, all those FABULOUS government resources)…they’re broke, they’re depressed, and desperate.”
So what? What does ones economic status have to do with protecting innocent life?
So, if a family runs into financial trouble when their kids are 5, do they get to kill them?
“Tell me Nathan, are you gonna ask your wife to die and leave you and your children virtually parentless?”
No, of course not. I would seek Gods guidance on the matter and support my wife in the decision she makes. However, the decision is no longer simply the life of the child but the life of the mother as well. Like I said before you have introduced a different element into the equation.
So lets get serious shall we?
Most abortions in this country are done for pure conveinence. They have nothing to do with saving the life of the mother.
So I ask you:
When does human life begin?
But that’s it Nathan, your “convenience” is someone else’s major life issue. Someone else might look at the scenario above and decide that it was not good enough, and your wife should die.You think it’s perfectly ok for you to look to God’s guidance in the issue, which is fine. But don’t you think MOST women who walk into an abortion clinic have done the exact same thing? What do you think all of these women are harlots who care not one iota about what is about to happen?
STATISTICALLY, that is not the fact. And if you consider that 90 some percent of Americans believe in God or Christianity- that’s a whole lot of Christians walking into those abortion clinics too.
Have you ever once talked to someone who had an abortion and listened to them? I bet you haven’t, because you’ve been too busy judging them.
And I also say, that IF your agenda gets passed, the agenda I’m fighting for would save your wife’s life in that case. I’m saying leave the decision to the woman who KNOWS her situation best, and not to someone else.
For the abortions will continue to happen regardless, and women will put their lives on the line for it….because that is how desperate they are.
Human life begins at conception. I’ve never said otherwise. I also believe it’s a human baby growing in the womb. But it STILL does not change my position.
How completely appropriate. A discussion about Phill Kline immediately shifts from the subject at hand to abortion, and then to personal attacks. Sounds like any number of his speeches, campaign appearances, or ads. “What do I think of prosecuting consumer fraud? Well, let me tell you how abortion is a bigger fraud on the consumer blah blah blah.” You all know the routine.
Bow to me, O humorless Libs!
Pol_mom,In the case of an ectopic pregnancy, both the woman and child would die. The operation is not just to go in and kill the kid, but to remove a part of the mother’s organ.
I doubt that you will find accurate abortion statistics as those involved are most often ashamed of what they have done. I suspect, however, the bulk are NOT due to illness or disease, but more likely the ‘woman’s choice’ is made because the child would interfere with her plans.
Oops-oh. She should have thought about that before she had sex. Every sexual encounter comes with the risk of pregnancy, unless one party is sterile. If you play the game, you have to be ready for the consequences.
As you have stated that life begins at conception, you are thereby condoning the murder of a defenseless child at the whim of the mother.
His picture scares me.. Please just get him out of politics all together and make him go to church so he can be the happy little fundamentalist he knows that he is.
Oh and make his sobbing daughter go as well, she seems to be very “righteous”.
LOL, Erik. “His picture scares me.” That reminds me of an old story. A farmer and his wife had a piano in their living room. Above the piano, in the place of honor, hung pictures, side by side, of Jesus Christ and FRD. While visiting them, their grandson quietly admired the sentiment. Later, the young man accompanied his grandfather to the barn to help with the evening “chores” In the barn, he noticed another picture — that of Eleanor Roosevelt. Puzzled, he asked his grandfather why her picture was hanging in the barn. Without hesitation and with a wink, the old man replied, “Keeps the rats away, son.”
You know, wouldn’t you have expected that Morrison would have drawn 65% of the voters in his own county? Especially with the KC Star joining the Wichita Eagle in their vendetta against Kline?
Oh well, paraphrasing Joe Williams; “who cares, it’s Johnson County.”
I note that I afforded Nathan that he may have been called away.
It would be nice if he could afford others their distractions. You know, instead of acusing them of being evasive?
Nathan? You cannot reduce the question to “when does human life begin”. There are too many complicating reasons to explain. I think you may know that.
Someone once told me they wanted to address the abortion issue by “changing hearts”. I do not think that is the chosen method of Phil Kline. But let’s not go there.
You argue “When does human life begin?”
Well I will ask you. When does human life cease to be valued? Or as you would say “worthy of protecting”?
Is it when a woman cannot feed her children on her own? Has that childs worth expired? What is your position on society assisting?
Maybe it is when people become sick and cannot pay for their own medical care? Do we clear those folks from the ledger? So you would be in favor of nationalized health care then?
Perhaps, for whatever reason, when folks can no longer care for themselves?They should just shape up or perish? Ew there’s that welfare word again.
I’m sorry Nathan. I left the “pro life” movement because most of the people in it are only a little bit pro life. Women do not have the luxury of being a little bit pregnant. Arguing that abstinence is an alternative is incomplete(rape) and dishonest. (Seeks to modify behavior instead of addressing consequence). Until every human life is valued, no one is truly pro life.
I continue to hope that one day that will change.
Kudos once more, JR. Anybody suppose the NF would get 65% in Sedgwick County?
Assuming, of course, she had an opponent?
Sol shows his absolute ignorance of the facts surrounding abortion.
Convenience, no. I don’t believe, nor is it statistically proven that abortion is because the woman just doesn’t want to be pregnant. Interfereing with her life isn’t a mere inconvenience. And I know mental health plays a large role in it. The women are in CRISIS, it’s a pivotal life changing event. Not something women take so flippantly.
And once again, it shows that anti-women supporters feel that parenthood should be a punishment for having sex. Way to go asshole. Doomed to a life of poverty for that terrible sinful pleasure. It’s no wonder we’ve got so many screwed up people in this world already.
Peemom,What about post-partum depression? Does that not fall into the category of dangers to mental health? Then it can be argued that abortions cause just as much mental instability as opposed to giving birth to it. (If not more so)
And once again, it shows that anti-women supporters feel that parenthood should be a punishment for having sex.
That is bullshit, pure and unadulterated. Especially since half of those aborted babies are girls. The only “anti-women” around here is the pro-death camp!
How ’bout the mental health threat of “I won’t be able to fit into my prom dress and that will make me very, very sad”?
Sure post partum depression is a serious problem for giving birth. Ask Andrea Yates. She chose not to have an abortion.
Crusader your argument is absurd.
Enema- if you really think that is all girls think about when they’re facing a crisis pregnancy, you’re incredibly shallow and stupid.Incredibly incredibly stupid.
I was only commenting on the absurd mental health exception. Maybe they should have thought a little more responsibly before going face down, ass up.
That’s so easy for you to say as a guy who doesn’t have to deal with it.
God you’re such a dickhead.
Most men who are against abortion are men who cannot get laid.: (
Pee - aren’t you above all this name calling?
P_Mom is exactly right.
A woman can be dead drunk, addicted to drugs, mentally ill, emotionally or financially needy, trapped in an abusive relationship, a product of abuse or neglect, a victim of date rape.
Any or all these factors can lead to a bad relationship that leads to an unwanted pregnancy. A blanket ban on abortion doesn’t do anything about solving the crises that lead to abortion.
I think the love of the dickhead is part of the problem.Face down, ass up!
heh…again. “victim” mentality.
FLeet, PMom, Capn’, GNut & Crusader(?) — Andrea Yates is NOT an example for either side in this argument. Andrea Yates is nuttier than a fucking fruitcake. She doesn’t prove either side !
Yes it is relevant when we’re dicsussing mental health in abortion issues.
Hers was just one of many side effects of pregnancy.
I didn’t bring up Andrea Yates.I did bring up the bogus “Prom dress” mental health exception.Sometimes personal responsibility comes into play. We know what causes pregnancy. We know what causes AIDS. The answer is to avoid it. It is really as simple as all that. If you get pregnant, have the baby. Just because the baby is not “convenient” doesn’t make the “it’s my body, I can do as I wish” argument valid.It turns out that it is more than your body that is involved.I suppose that we could go into the whole victim-hood thing that you people love so much.
Ya know? Somebody who repeatedly uses the phrase “face down ass in the air” or variants on it is suggestive to me of someone who is bitter about sex. The only reason I can see for someone to be bitter about someone else having sex is that that person is not getting any of their own.
That about sum you up fleet?
Abortion is actually a very natural thing. It happens all the time in animals.
In many animals, if a pregnant female does not get proper nutrition or has a stressful pregnancy, the fetus or fetuses or eggs will be re-absorbed into the body or the female will miscarry ending the pregnancy.
It is much the same with human beings. A woman finds herself unable or unfit to carry an infant to term and care for it. She chooses to end the pregnancy.
Those who would seek to interfere with this very natural thing should use their considerable zeal to guarantee the prospective mother that her infant will get proper care.
In other words? Put up or shut up.
“Abortion is actually a very natural thing. It happens all the time in animals.”
So to prove your point… abortion is natural. Then end the doctors performing it. Let nature take its course. Thank you JR; end doctor assisted abortions because NATURE will take care of it.
Think you scored a hit with that one sol?
Um….you just made my point.
Abortion IS going to happen. Now you can take the Dr’s out of it if you LIKE. But is that REALLY what you are shooting for? Abortion done by the hand of a desperate woman or an unqualified butcher?
Oooo sol I think you just revealed more about yourself than you meant to. Sort of like when you threatened to shoot me in the head.
I want abortion to be safe legal and rare. Maybe you want to expand on what your intents are sol.
I can answer that. Enema and Devl (are they the same?) want everyone to be ashamed of sex. Why, cause they do.
Telling a girl- “serves you right-you filthy whore” (which is exactly what they’re saying) is why so many religious girls are in the line at the clinic too.
Oh and lets not forget, more babies, en utero and out, die from the hand of God exponentially more than what we humans do.
Although your description is barely recognizable, I heard that argument once before mom. Basically, that more fetuses are spontaneously aborted than are aborted intentionally, and thus God is the great abortionist! Terrific logic. What a hoot!
And I suppose since more people die of natural causes than are shot, He is also the great murderer.
Liberal logic. Chuckle…
My point being is that sometimes, there are good reasons for these babies to not be born.
Why would God create life to just destroy it (miscarriage).
Think beyond the womb.
Well mom, I believe that because it occurred there was a good reason for a miscarriage. The child was destined not to be born.
It get’s a little different when humans start playing God and deciding who gets to be born and who dies.
I want to see less abortions. I even heard JR say he wants to see less abortions. Let’s start with banning all late term abortion of viable babies and then see where we go from there.
The phrase, safe, legal and rare is a pro-choice phrase. That is what we want.
We don’t want to see abortions happen. We really don’t. We just understand there are reasons for them, and that no woman should have to justify why her reasons are better. She is the one who lives her life.
Babies die, yes they do. I’m saying I don’t think God thinks it’s such an abomination for babies to die. If he had a hand in it, these babies who are so wanted would only end up in the wombs of mothers who want them.
And only the ill babies would end up in the wombs of women who didn’t.
IF God does intervene, why doesn’t he? Why does he allow a woman to get pregnant when he knows she will abort it.
These are the questions I ask of Christians. It’s not that I really believe any of this you know, it’s all rhetorical.
We don’t need a ban on late term pregnancies. There are already so few of them anyway, and usually the reason for late term is medical anyway.
Well, if there are so few late term abortions, then a ban shouldn’t be too big a deal.
Your question of “why babies die” is on the level of “why is there evil in this world”? I have my belief, but then we would be on a major theology detour.
I believe that human life is precious and thus, if we don’t have the answers, (and we don’t), we should err on the side of protecting it.
Now I’m gonna pay more attention to Jimmy Buffet.
I agree outlander that the late term abortion ban is stupid. The antis who want to ban the procedure just don’t care that women can have severe health problems if they deliver at that stage. However, to the antis it’s just one step is eliminating all medical freedom. First abortion, then contraception, then sex education and so on.
Doug, did you see this?
http://www.now.org/news/note/121306.html
Oh now don’t evoke me to sell YOUR message Outie.
You have not said where you stand on the WHOLE and TRUE meaning of pro life.
You are for the repeal of welfare “reform” yes? You are for health care for all? You are for a living wage?
And do not descend to the late term ban lie. NO woman undergoes the rigors of pregnancy for 7 to 8 months only to change her mind with out a good reason.
We need doctors who are willing to deliver babies early.
I doubt that’s gonna happen though, that’d be too easy.
There are reasons for parents killing their children too.
They just shouldn’t have to justify it…
2 years. I wondered how long it would take for the NOW gang to twist this to meet its agenda. This is legislation of course was born from the Laci Peterson case (very close to my home.). How does an organization, supposedly pro-woman, advocate violence against women?
“In 2004, Bush signed into law the so-called “Unborn Victims Of Violence Act,” which amended federal criminal laws to create a second, separate offense for killing or injuring a “child in utero,” thus transforming even a fertilized egg or zygote into a child — a person — under that federal law. Although the stated purpose was to protect pregnant women from violence, conservatives in Congress quickly killed a substitute that would have doubled the penalty for any crime against a pregnant woman. This law covers only crimes committed on federal land, so it has limited actual application — it’s just another step in the march toward fetal personhood. “
Uh, no it’s not two years. We’ve been fighting this a very long time. And there have been cases where fetal personhood laws were applied when they should not have been already.
I think the militant pro choice crowd is paranoid when it comes to this. Just as the militant pro life group who would support a straight up constitutional ban or supreme court ruling over turning roe v. wade is delusional.I’ve said before we are talking a matter of the heart. Until those change we are going to have abortion legal or illegal.
However as far as the personhood goes, heart beats at what stage of prenancy? And no heart beat you what?
The same nuts who are going to call a fetus a person are probably the same nuts who said Terri Shiavo was going to wake up and become a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader.
I wonder if that means teens can get their driver’s license after 15 years and 3 months since they’ll automatically become 9 months older? Anyway, imagine the number of women who get sent to prison for manslaughter should they accidently miscarry. Man, these anti-abortion religious nuts sure hate women.
You could just as easily argue that a kid doesn’t achieve personhood until he/she leaves home. The threat of an extremely late term abortion might provide some much-needed leverage for parents of teenagers!
“But Republicans pursue activism-as-usual at their own risk. Johnson County Democrats have to like their chances against Kline in 2008.”
I doubt the Democrats are even going to get a shot at him. Kline will be done after the Republican primary.
And are the prolifers who will claim a beating heart is just unviable tissue mass the same who say a water stain on a rock on mars is proof of life?
Dang that should be choicers. To dang early out here.
Thing is Kia, I’m not willing to risk it. I’m not willing to place the lives of millions of women at risk for a political agenda. Even if I’m making too much out of it, I’d rather do that than lose my, my children’s and my grandchildren’s rights to choose.
Unfortunately abortion polarizes us all. I don’t like it but I still believe I should have the right to decide. I have talked to many women young and old and sometimes abortion was the necessary recourse. It just amazes me how all you men pontificate about something you know nothing about. Grow a uterus and then we’ll talk.
“Oooo sol I think you just revealed more about yourself than you meant to. Sort of like when you threatened to shoot me in the head. I want abortion to be safe legal and rare. Maybe you want to expand on what your intents are sol.”I don’t threaten, I do. If you felt threatened by a scenario, sucks to be you.Safe, legal and rare? You don’t have that now. There is no safety guarantee, they are unfortunately legal, and they are anything but rare.
I understand the pro-choicer’s stand point of “a woman’s body, a woman’s choice” but what y’all fail to see is the rights of the unborn. It is not the unborn’s fault that the mother got pregnant. Yet it is the child that pays the ultimate price. How can a woman that has received an abortion sleep at night? Do the cries of babies make your skin crawl? Well it SHOULD. I believe in an after life and I believe that a woman who has had an abortion and has not atoned will suffer in eternity. Murder is murder is murder. No way around it. Pro choice? The choice to commit murder. Everyone has that choice. I can choose to shoot or not shoot a victim. If I choose to pull the trigger, I stand a strong chance of going to jail. But a woman has a right to kill an unborn child. Yeah, just doesn’t pass the logic test.
Yes it is her body. It is also the body of a child. Who is ANYONE on earth to decide for that child that it must die because he/she is an inconvenience?
Why do you call abortion murder? No where in the bible does it ever refer to abortion as murder? Yet you take it to that place. Abortion will stop when children are protected, pedophiles get real punishment prior to killing someone, rapists are punished and not the victim, domestic violence is treated as a serious crime with more than a hand slap. Yes, I’m liberal because I believe that we deserve to make our own choices about our bodies, that the working poor should have a right to decent healthcare, and that most politicians regardless of what side they are on are mostly out to keep their job and screw the rest of us. I believe in term limits for that very reason. Maybe if it wasn’t a career politicians would actually develop some balls and do something real for the country. Maybe we should start a fund raiser.
Sol, I don’t think it’s murder. When a conjoined twin is causing the main twin to die, we make a decision to cut off the extra twin and let it die to save the other. When two babies are en utero, one can actually live off the other one, which will eventually kill the other one.
We make exceptions, just like we make exceptions for self defense in murder. We make the exception for war. The world is NOT black and white, we have varying degrees of right and wrong.
SO this is one of the cases where we make the tradeoff. We decide that the life of the mother is more important. She is already living and breathing.
I realize this is a really bad way to say it, but it’s the truth, the fetus, embryo is a parasite till born, it lives off the mother, affecting every cell of her body.
Babies born to animals in the wild, if the mother isn’t ready, or something is wrong, that baby is left to die. It’s just a fact of life.
sols a liar political mom.
Hey sol? Are you in Michigan or Carolina? Your posts place you both places….today!
I can go do a bonedig and prove it. Or maybe you’d care to explain?
I live in MI as I have often posted. Dig away.
What you post Pol_Mom are the exceptions. What I have a problem with are the norms. A perfectly healthy woman with a perfectly healthy fetus. The only problem is that the fetus will grow into an unwanted child for the mother. Conveniently she will choose to murder her child to avoid an inconvenience in her life. Therein lies my problem with abortion.
If any of you have the chance, visit Charlotte, NC. Great City. Great state.
It isn’t for you to say whether or not that fetus, embryo in most cases, is ‘worthy’ of being aborted.
The MOTHER knows her situation. Babies are not a punishment. I don’t think it’s merely inconvenient if a mother cannot support the child financially. It is life altering. Her entire ability to support herself and that baby financially are important.
Charlotte is a beautiful city. I’ve been there many times and never had a bad experience.
I don’t think it’s merely inconvenient if a mother cannot support the child financially.-Sure it is. Give the child up for adoption then. But don’t kill it just because you aren’t going to be able to afford it. That sounds like a terrible form of selfishness to me.
And we haven’t even mentioned rights of the father in any of these discussions.Oh yea, when it comes to the abortion issue, there aren’t any.
In the issue of abortion the father does not get to decide what I do. Not unless he is going to start carrying it. I’ve had people tell me that just because my child was a product of rape I still had no right to abort it. I believe I had every right. I don’t believe that you can tell anyone else what is good for them either.Sol,You are assuming that women abort because pregnancy is “inconvenient.” Have you ever met someone who had to make that kind of a decision. Let me tell you that as a 16 year old I had an agonizing time. However, to this day I believe it was the right one. If I had given birth the child most likely would have been abused as I was. At that time in my life I would never have been strong enough to protect the child. And believe me there are worst things then death. There have been times in my life because of the abuse I suffered I think it would have been kinder to have just killed me. It took a long time to work through all the shit. And there are more women out there like me than most people want believe. So I believe still it should be my choice.
Thank you for that Brenda. I never had an abortion. But I do fight for the rights of women to choose. It isn’t merely inconvenient to be pregnant! It can be downright dangerous, as it was with me. Women who have babies who can’t afford them usually just end up keeping them, hoping it will turn out for the best. Too young girls tote their babies around to different men, parties…some of the environments these kids are being brought up in is not healthy. Then there is the abuse when times get tough. Thank goodness I came from a good home, and I had the tools and support to deal with it, and it was hard even then. And no matter what you say, more often the father ends up skating on the mom. Remember that story where the mom dropped the kid off at the fathers, and SHE was arrested because he didn’t want the kid? That’s the kind of crap I’m talking about.
“If I had given birth the child most likely would have been abused as I was.”
And Brenda, I am glad you are still breathing. Damn shame your child isn’t. I am betting you are doing OK now. Damn shame we can’t say the same about your child.
“But I do fight for the rights of women to choose.”
Pol_mom, who fights for the unborn?
As I’ve stated before, I believe in God. He does not give you more than you can bare. If he gives you the glorious opportunity to bring a human life into this world, then He has given you the tools to handle the situation.
People, especially children, are astoundingly resilient. I am assuming that Brenda is an upstanding citizen today despite being brought up in abuse. Who is is to say her child would not rebound as well. Well never know now.
“Too young girls tote their babies around to different men, parties…some of the environments these kids are being brought up in is not healthy.”
mom: Getting killed is not real healthy either. You rationalize a terrible act. Basically you are saying that because this kid may be inconvenient, or may not have the most advantageous upbringing, it should not get a chance at life, at overcoming the odds. A good percentage of the great people in history have been born into difficult circumstances and have overcome them, thus molding their character.
That kind of reasoning is just trying to justify an act that you know is wrong. It is not a matter of women’s rights, it is a matter of doing right.
But regardless, if anyone has had an abortion, you should not dwell on the past. Everyone makes mistakes. You must let it go and focus on the future. God will forgive you if you seek forgiveness. That is why he died for our sins.
If God didn’t give us more than we could handle, there wouldn’t be suicides and homicides and abortions in the first place. Your religious beliefs have no business making decisions for the lives of others.
I’m gonna take a wild guess and bet that Outlander and Sol both neither helped foster kids, and probably complain about social programs to help these abused kids, and pregnant moms too. I’ll bet these are the SAME people who complain about ‘welfare moms’.
I’ll second that charge political mom.
I don’t know sol well. I am surprised to learn that he is against abortion even in the case of rape! I think that makes him unique among the regular posters here. Well the honest ones anyway.
I will afford sol the chance to inform us as to whether he is TRULY pro life. Surely he is in favor of national health care and the repeal of welfare “reform”?
outlander I know better. In more than a year I’ve not seen him call for national health care or repeal of welfare reform. SO we must assume that he is merely “pro life”. The quotation marks denoting that he pays lip service to the issue, but has dishonest motives.
Why did no one answer this:
>>>who fights for the unborn?
You are sick, Sol. Do you honestly expect that a victim of rape should have to carry that child to term?
Really?
Do you think that she should have to live everyday of those nine months knowing that the child she is carrying is the product of a violet assault?
Rape is not a sexual crime - it is an act of extreme violence perpetrated on helpless women. To add insult to injury by making them carry the resulting child to term is beyond comprehension.
Ha. Nor will you JR. The dishonesty comes from those who would attempt to tie the horror of abortion to issues like welfare reform. Kind of like saying, pay me now, and keep paying me or I’ll abort my child.
Question for some of you based on the idea of abortion because of a financial situation.Under the same logic then shouldn’t the US or UN support movements to sterlize women in parts of the world in extreme poverty?
Thank you outlander for clarifying.
I am pro life. YOU are “pro life”. You are concerned with life only unborn. Your concern ends at the end of the birth canal. You just said so.
I call that “concern” phony. You’ve an agenda that has NOTHING to do with life. Why don’t you be honest about it? Which commandment is it that says “Thou shalt not bare false witness”?
You’re busted outie.
YOUR words”Kind of like saying, pay me now, and keep paying me or I’ll abort my child.”
Let me help you with honesty. You MEANT to say:
I support the unborn because I think women who have sex outside of marriage should be punished with a baby. Once that baby is born that woman is on her own with it and that is God’s punishment for her sin. Hey I got the kid born. It’s outta my hands now!
I just lost about all the little respect I ever had for you Out.
TWO softballs in one evening?
I just busted outie Kia. Now it’s your turn.
No one advocates sterilization.
YOUR president George Bush cut funding for contraception in African countries in favor of abstinence education.
Just don’t do it.
And like Outie and bush and you Kia? Well those that do are on God’s good humor I guess?
Come on back when you are REALLY pro life.
Kia, we support allowing women in impoverished countries access to birth control. Which is what the PRO LIFE MOVEMENT fights against.
You’re darn right, there are MILLIONS of kids dying slow deaths of starvation over there, it’s insane. Would I prefer a woman having an abortion to that? Absolutely! Forced, not on your life.
And outlander, you just showed you absolutely do not give a damn about those children once they are born. WELFARE IS TIED to abortion, whether you like it or not. They are all relevant in this discussion. YOUR opinion is not. It’s THE MOTHER’S LIFE, not yours.
And by your logic and jumping to conclusions to support your own agenda it sounds like you answered my question with a Yes.How’s that for women’s rights?
How was that a yes? Would I support UN efforts to sterilize women…yeah if that’s what the women want to do. We do it here, I would be angry if I was denied my sterilization.How is that denying women a right?
I do support birth control and certainly those in nations with HIV going around like the flu.
I don’t see however in the richest country in the world, where couples who are unable to have children are praying for a child, that someone who won’t be able to financially support a child, the government will pay for that child’s life to be terminated.I understand rape and incest cases. Definitely a moral dilema for me.I don’t understand abortion in the case of financial hardship. There are 1000’s if not millions that want that baby.
How was that a yes? Would I support UN efforts to sterilize women…yeah if that’s what the women want to do. We do it here, I would be angry if I was denied my sterilization.How is that denying women a right?Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2006 at 12:10 AM
That was directed to JR mom.But my question in general to Prochoicers was if you support abortion in the case of financial hardship then by the same logic shouldn’t you support a forced sterlization in the most improvished nations?Basically leading to the extermination of a people?
Forget the side issues.
Let’s understand where you are really at Kia.How pro life are you?
Are you in favor of societal support for every child? Are you in favor of healh care for all?
You can’t be a little bit pro life any more than a woman can be a little bit pregnant. Otherwise it’s hypocrisy.
Not- nobody believes in forced sterilizations.
I understand where you’re coming from on the adoption thing, really I do. I would LOVE for more women to choose adoption.
I’ve just seen too many who chose that to change their minds at the last minute, and then go on to lose the baby to the state when he’s too old for most to want to adopt him (or worse, the kid was left in that enviroment).
We could talk ideals all day long.
What we have to address is reality.
Fact: Women have sex and get pregnant even if they use birth control.
Fact: Some of the women are raped, some have medical conditions, some are young, some are old, some are afraid of being pregnant with mom and dad finding out, some are afraid of their classmates finding out, some are afraid of financial and future ruin.
Fact: If abortion is made illegal, thousands of women will die from desperate acts.
Fact: Nobody but the woman has to face this and each situation is unique.
Those are the facts. Ignore them if you choose, but I won’t.
Well JR unlike a lot of my brethren I really do like to try and consider WWJD and not take scripture as simple black and white considering the time it was written and instead look at WWJ in today’s society, with the laws and what not we have in place.
In the case of pregnancy by rape, I’m not really sure. I don’t see how asking a woman to carry a baby after going thru something like that is showing them the love of Christ. I just don’t know.
Things such as Health care are different. If there is one thing we all agree on is the Gov’t is pretty much FUBR’ard. I don’t see that handing over control of the healthcare of our nations citizens is going to improve it. It’s a nice thought and I’m not really fiscally against it. The insurance companies wield far too much political power. It’s what will happen to the quality that is available now in the Gov’t’s hands.
Societal support of it’s citizens is not the governments job and again, all it can do it make it worse. Non profits (and IMHO religious based in particular) are the best at this.
Kia-”Question for some of you based on the idea of abortion because of a financial situation.Under the same logic then shouldn’t the US or UN support movements to sterlize women in parts of the world in extreme poverty?”
What am absurd non sequitur.
People who get abortions because of their financial situation (and usually, decisions to get an abortion come down to more than one single factor) are still the choice of the women who get the abortions. “Forced” sterilizations, by definition, are not chosen.
Sol-”And Brenda, I am glad you are still breathing. Damn shame your child isn’t. I am betting you are doing OK now. Damn shame we can’t say the same about your child.”
This comment is beyond the pale. As are the idiotic comments that follow:
“As I’ve stated before, I believe in God.”
That’s fine. I have no problem with that statement. However, what follows is factually wrong.
“He does not give you more than you can bare. If he gives you the glorious opportunity to bring a human life into this world, then He has given you the tools to handle the situation.”
1) There are conditions and populations that exist by definition because people have burdens that they were unable to bear. Such burdens, internal and external, result in effects such as paralyzing depression to extreme emotional dysregulation, to neurological disorders that prevent a person from being able to function, to external tragedies that literally tear people’s emotional, financial, or cognitive resources from them. People are diverse, and some of that diversity relates to having different abilities to cope. I’ve seen all sorts of situations where the people involved have coped with tremendous hardships, but I have also seen all sorts of situations where people were unable to cope, with tragic or messy results. And people at different times in their lives have different abilities to cope. There is a reason for such sayings as “the last straw”.
2) The canard “God never gives us more than we can bear” is one of the most poisonous platitudes I have ever seen, because it prevents people from getting the help they or their loved ones need to cope or recover. You want to piss off widows or widowers who nursed their spouses through their final illness, or parents who did the same thing with their children, tell them that “God never gives us more than we can bear”. Not to mention people who lose their families and communities in parts of the world where anarchy, genocide, and/or starvation run rampant. Mere survival is not the same as “bearing”.
3) As a widower who has participated in recovery groups, I have seen people whose personal faith in a god was a coping mechanism that really got them through tough situations. I have also seen people whose faith in a god was catastrophic to their recovery. For example, the idea that “everything is part of God’s Plan” results in questions such as why God thought his “plan” would be best served by giving a thirty year old father of four children under ten liver cancer. The response “shit happens” (whether one believes in a god or not) is often a healthier response under such circumstances.
“People, especially children, are astoundingly resilient. I am assuming that Brenda is an upstanding citizen today despite being brought up in abuse. Who is is to say her child would not rebound as well. We’ll never know now.”
Typical post hoc reasoning. In all probability some of the factors contributing to why Brenda was able to overcome hardship to become an upstanding citizen today have to do with the decisions she made at key times of her life. Decisions such as the difficult one she made to have an abortion. No one knows what would have happened if Brenda had made a different decision, but Brenda is the person in the best position to make a reasonable guess.
Your beliefs, regarding the existence of a god who “never gives you more than you can bear”, should never be translated into policy.
“I just lost about all the little respect I ever had for you Out.”
JR: First of all, I could not possibly care less.
But let me compliment you because your intellectual dishonesty is truly outstanding. You can’t defend abortion on demand so you attempt to divert the issue by tying on-demand abortion to other liberal social issues like welfare reform. As if most women who have abortions are on welfare.
And you judge compassion by how much of OTHER PEOPLE’S money a person may be willing to support the government giving away in social programs? Real big of you JR.
I donate money personally to charitable organizations. You, in contrast demonstrate your compassion by supporting taking more and more other people’s money and spending it on social programs, such as increasing the number of folks rotting their lives away on welfare.
Sadly, JR, I must conclude that your alleged compassion is false.
Not at all outie.
Remember, I used to be vehemently “pro life”. But folks like you and in fact I would say most “pro life” folks are not truly pro life at all. Your compassion ends at the end of the birth canal. I value ALL human life and I have decided that views such as yours stink from hypocrisy and dishonesty. Oh you make yourself feel good and fulfill whatever agenda it is you have by advocating protection of the unborn. But like I said, you are pro life only to the extent a woman can be “a little bit pregnant.”
“You can’t defend abortion on demand so you attempt to divert the issue by tying on-demand abortion to other liberal social issues like welfare reform. As if most women who have abortions are on welfare.”
Absolutely I can defend abortion on demand. Our society either welcomes and supports each member or it does not. Currently it does not. Until it does a woman has every right to decide what is best for her. Who are YOU to decide for her?
Sol,I am a fine upstanding citizen but that was no thanks to anyone else except maybe my husband who has supported me through all the crap. But I spent a lot of time in therapy and still to this day I have to deal with the nightmares and flashbacks. I did at one point in my career work with women and young girls and boys that had suffered from abuse and I can tell you that the majority of them don’t fare as well as I did. I have lived long enough to see the kids I worked with grow up and commit some heinous crimes. I pushed the women I worked with to live in the “here and now”, get jobs not handouts, and figure out how to protect their children. One thing I know is that mental health is no joke.I also believe in God and when I go to heaven(yes, I will be there because I’ve already been through hell)I will ask God what he was thinking. I will tell you however that the religious people were the first to condemn me and the last to help me. I am very cynical about religion but I know God loves me. I grew up going to a very fundamental church and I met some of the most evil, judgemental, people there. Some of them were pedaphiles. They gravitate to fundimental religions because they have no internal control of their urges and so need external controls but it never works. Then the religious hiearchy protects them. Have we forgotten the Catholic church? Jimmy Swaggart? Jim Baker? And the rest that are too numerous to name?
“Kia, we support allowing women in impoverished countries access to birth control. Which is what the PRO LIFE MOVEMENT fights against.”________________________________________________________________I think you have Pro-Life and Catholics mixed up. Pro-Life, to me, consists mainly of responsible sex and responsibilities after sex.________________________________________________________________
“The canard “God never gives us more than we can bear” is one of the most poisonous platitudes I have ever seen, because it prevents people from getting the help they or their loved ones need to cope or recover.”________________________________________________________________God putting something horrendous in your path does not preclude getting help. No where does that statement say that you have to do it on your own. He might be walking you towards help. You might find help in the damnedest places. The point being, God did not put you here to fail. He put you here AND gave you all the tools you need to succeed. Some of those tools might be in seeking help from God, support groups, or someone you know and trust.
“As a widower who has participated in recovery groups”________________________________________________________________I am sorry for your loss. I am glad you were willing to and find help. God bless.
“I value ALL human life”________________________________________________________________Then why are you so willing to kill?
“I am a fine upstanding citizen but that was no thanks to anyone else except maybe my husband who has supported me through all the crap. But I spent a lot of time in therapy and still to this day I have to deal with the nightmares and flashbacks.”________________________________________________________________Outstanding. Very glad you found a life partner to stand by and support you. IMHO, God placed things in your path to help mold and define your life. Look at you now, helping others thru difficult times. Outstanding for you!!!! Did you ever stop and think for a moment that that might be WHY you went thru that stuff? There are people here who have very luxurious life styles and take life for granted. I am betting you are LIVING ten times or more than they are. I am very sorry you have to re-live the bad parts of your life thru nightmares and flash backs. But I bet the make you appreciate your life even more.
How many lives have you touched in your efforts? How many people have you helped? The suffering of the few for the needs of the many. Outstanding.
“first to condemn me and the last to help me.”________________________________________________________________I think this makes them more of a Church-goer than religious. Christians are supposed to help their fellow brethren, not spurn or judge them.
“very cynical about religion but I know God loves me.”________________________________________________________________Outstanding. I am very skeptical of religion as well. I practice my faith outside of churches for many of the reasons you listed. Very happy to hear you have not lost your faith in God. Bully for you !!!!!
“fundamental church and I met some of the most evil, judgmental, people there.”________________________________________________________________I absolutely agree and that is why I am not a church-goer.