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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Dec. 12, 2006 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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104 Comments
I’ve got a great idea. Substitute a new super Wal-Mart for the proposed white elephant, albatross, no-parking, ice hockey downtown arena.
Then build the proposed arena adjacent to the present Kansas Coliseum and later demolish the current Kansas Coliseum building.This would keep the Coliseum’s current 5,000 FREE secured parking spaces.
I believe the 160,000 Sedgwick County citizens and voters who don’t want the downtown arena would approve of this plan. And possibly the remaining half dozen people unaffiliated with the project who seem to want the arena might approve the idea also.
And it would improve the City’s image in the eyes of Visioneering participants … a Wichita civic homerun!
The 300,000 majority of citizens and voters of Sedgwick county that wants the downtown arena would disagree.
We already have the best location for the arena, Downtown Wichita.
It’s a done deal! Can’t wait till it’s built. I’m a proud citizen and proud YEA voter.
Wrong again Joe. As far as I know, you are the only pro-arena person left in Wichita who is not affiliated with the project in some way. I believe the other two, Shocker 06 and 07 moved to Denver and Topeka.
You’ll be surprised.
You only can see what your mind believes JWink!
It’s a done deal! There’s no hanging chad or re-vote.
Joe: With $250,000,000.98 of wasted tax money involved — wise men would say this white elephant arena project needs to be reviewed. A lot of alternatives are out there to be considered to give taxpayers value for their hard earned money. Simply yelling “pro-arena, pro-arena” is inadequate.
And I thought you previously said, taking big tax money from the many and giving it to the few is an “ism” you claim to oppose as a conservative.
While I am not a strong supporter of this arena, a recent article in the paper makes me reflect about it all. The front page article was about the poor self image many people have of our city. That poor self image is clearly reflected by many, many posts on this blog that are always negative. Negative about Wichita, the Waterwalk, the Arena, the Boathouse, school closings, police, etc., etc., etc. It seems that everything is met with derision, nay-sayers, condemnation and disdain.
Constant complaints about ‘good old boy networks’, about rich getting richer, etc., etc., etc. abound. Seems to me that it is sooo easy to sit back and criticize everything without EVER coming up with anything positive.
Gripe, gripe, gripe, gripe.
How about a new thread…some POSITIVE comments about Wichita for a change? For those of you that hate it so much, here is a thought–help improve it or leave?
Better idea.
Don’t condemn the charity builiding, take the rest of the condemned arena property and make it a large park.
Now we are talking raptor. I’m a positive believer in Wichita.
JWink! Again! I’m not a conservative. I’m a libertarian.
Simply saying “white elephant arena” over and over again doesn’t cut it. And making inflated false tax reciepts for the project doesn’t give you crediablity.
We had the debate on alternatives long ago. Not only did we have it with site location, but we also made the decision as a populas in a vote to consider either a new arena to be located downtown or to remodel the Kansas Colisuem. The majority choose the downtown arena.
A citizen lead panel is now in charge of the steps towards the our wonderful downtown arena. Tax collection is already half over, most of the sights have been purchases, building will start going down next month, the sewer and water line mains have been rerouted. I guess somebody like JWINK thinks it’s funny to have an empty plot of land near the Commerce Art District because he a CAVE.
LOL
I note that the “positive believers in Wichita” are almost always people who are not FROM Wichita. Here again that is the case.
Good idea raptor – to a point. I with that I could point to WaterWalk and the Boathouse with pride but … at what? All the WaterWalk is is an empty field into which we have poured tax money. As for the Boathouse last I heard is the WW developers want to tear it down.
The Arena? I hope the CFSMWs like Joe Williams and mrage are correct in their projections. I especially hope they are more correct than they have been with their projections about their WaterWalk.
Lets change the subject a bit. We have a world-class zoo that generates envy by many people elsewhere. We have little traffic to deal with; Kellogg/Rock is nothing compared to Golf/Algonquin in suburban Chicago. Music Theater is amazing – their performances are as good as anywhere. Our symphony is right up there.
Lets celebrate what is; not what is not.
Isn’t the arena running into trouble because there are several structures that are in key areas for the arena that are have significant historical influence and therefore cannot be torn down?
JWink – the ‘free’ parking at the Coliseum isn’t ‘free’. Starting in January there will be a $3.00 fee for parking (supposedly for add’l revenue when the Coliseum is being renovated).
Raptor and Joe: I am normally a positive force in the communities in which I live. But here, I would like to see a well-spring of community support for Wichita. I have observed Wichita since grade school days when we read the Wichita Eagle/Beacon newspaper along with the Pratt Tribune. Since returning, I am a property owner near downtown and a Wranglers/NBC baseball fan. I have an 8 mm movie film of the downtown Wichita Christmas windows taken in the 1950’s which I sometimes show to interested people.
I started out participating with Visioneering. But then saw a few Visioneering leaders approve the undiscussed and expensive downtown arena over the protests of regular members. Thats when I quit.
Overall, the Visioneering idea of integrating as many people as possible in community decision making should have been a good one.
What should have been done and still could be done — take the $250,000,000.98 that is proposed to be wasted on the downtown arena. Give that amount to a reconstituted larger Visioneering membership to prioritize its spending.
Include all the currently failed civic projects into the stew and additional projects not yet discussed to any degree. Projects like reorganizing our city and county governments, improving all of our suburban Main Streets, improving storm sewer drainage around the county, provide for some additional storm water retention facilities to hedge against future water shortages, perhaps build a wind farm somewhere in Sedgwick County, etc. etc. The list goes on.
Under the light of a community developed consensus of priorities — I don’t think the proposed downtown arena with all its flaws would look very good. Perhaps I’m wrong but I would at least feel like alternatives have been considered.
At this point, about the only alternatives Wichita citizens got to decide is the color and width of the arena seats. That’s just not good enough.
Ben – you’ve talked about some great things about Wichita (zoo, Music Theatre, traffic). People are also ‘nicer’ here than big cities. Don’t forget the state parks (Cheney and El Dorado) that are within an one hour drive. And just about anything is within a halfhour drive from wherever you are in the city.
Yes well
You wanna know what WON’T make Wichita look better? Another Wal mart.
Think about it. Coming in from the west OR the east on Kellogg you pass a Wal mart. As if that were not bad enough, now they want to plop one of those eyesores right in the middle of town at Kellogg and Oliver.
SO imagine you are a tourist on the fly down Kellogg on your way to Colorado or Missourri. What lasting impression do you get from Wichita? Hey! They got lotsa Wal marts!
We don’t need another Wal mart and especially not in such a location.
By the way – my perspective on these amenities is based on comparing them with their counterparts in other cities where I have lived. Our Zoo especially is better than most.
i CANNOT believe that nobody wrote a blog about Kline winning DA position in JOCO!
Joe Williams is a libertarian like Martin Luther King was a conservative.
No real libertarian would be in favor of government stealing a quarter of a billion dollars from taxpayers so that the wealthy can entertain themselves.
Keep calling yourself a libertarian if you want to Joe. You’re not, but I agree it makes you sound less stupid than CONservative would . . .
Is that right, P_Mom? Now that’s funny.
The poor Republicans get their ass handed to them, and all they can do is bend over and say, “thank you, sir, may I have another?”
He’ll lose the next election. But until then, the Republicans get to hold up a blinking neon sign saying, “we’re with stoopid.”
Capn – it is sort of funny that a CFSMW (Commies For Spending Money Wildly) can claim to be a Libertarian.
JR–
I went to the meeting at College Hill where we lowly townspeople got to hold our hat in hand and ask the Wal-Mart person and her developers questions.
After about 45 minutes of non-stop citizen objections to yet another Mao-Mart, the Wal-Mart attorney stood up and told us in no uncertain terms that all the legal necessities were in place for the project to go forward, and our complaints meant nothing.
At that point, I realized that the meeting was nothing more than a charade of “concensus building” and had nothing to do with actually influencing the decision.
The decision had been made–it was a done deal.
If you want to DO something about the corporatization of America, going to meeting chaired by Wal-Mart is not the answer.
The answer is to work with existing local groups like ACORN, Peace and Social Justice, and Democracy for America.
P & SJ recently succeeded in getting forms to high school kids so they can “opt out” of getting recruited by the military. Several thousand more kids won’t get the hard sell that could get them killed in Iraq thanks to this local group.
Democracy is not a spectator sport.
PMom: See last post in yesterday’s Open Thread! However, it is amazing that nobody but you and I wondered about that. “Never underestimate the stupiidity of congregated groups of people, (especially, it seems, in Johnson County)”.
All in all, I think the dems should go after WalMart full bore. Nothing illustrates who they really are better than going after a sucessful company that most Americans love and benefit from.
Just like the Clinton administration that ignored terrorism for eight years and went after the most dangerous man in America, Bill Gates!
Hank
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/4395027.html
One of the miracles of Wall Street is its ability to create a class system without class resentment.
At any given time in the capital markets there are at least two sets of rules — one for the rich and well-connected, another for the middle class, the Wall Street proletariat. The upper class rides in the front of the plane with the venture capitalists and hedge-fund managers; the proles ride in the back, with the mutual-fund managers.
There is, you might think, a war waiting to happen between the Haves and the Have-Mores. And yet no one much complains. One group simply expects to earn 20 percent or more per annum on its capital, the other is more or less content when its mutual funds underperform the market only slightly.
Didn’t Kline just officially declare residency in Johnson County FOUR DAYS AGO??? This is carpetbagging at its worst. What a joke.
Putting Kline in as Johnson County District Attorney is as ludicrous as……as……as……..re-electing Bob Knight as Mayor of Wichita!
Melanie: The way they figured it was, “If it was good enough for Billary, it’s good enough for this twit !”
Dems cut billions in GOP PORK:By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press WriterTue Dec 12, 4:33 AM ET
Democrats taking power in January have settled on a plan to clean up $463 billion worth of GOP budget leftovers, but they’re not happy about it — and neither is the White House.The plan by the incoming chairmen of the House and Senate Appropriations committees would kill thousands of hometown projects, called “earmarks,” that lawmakers add to spending bills. Staying within President Bush’s thrifty budgets for domestic agencies like the Agriculture and Education departments is part of their proposal.”There will be no congressional earmarks,” Rep. David Obey (news, bio, voting record), D-Wis., and Sen. Robert Byrd (news, bio, voting record), D-W.Va., said Monday in a statement announcing their plans, which were endorsed by incoming Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and soon-to-be Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev.Although critics call hometown projects “pork,” their sponsors claim that, as elected representatives, they know more about the needs of people in their states than the president and government bureaucrats. Projects they often want funded range from road, bridge and flood-control construction to economic development. Beneficiaries include local governments, hospitals and universities.Such projects exploded in number under GOP control of Congress over the last 12 years. At the same time they spawned a boom on Washington’s K Street lobbying corridor, where consultants earn big fees by helping outsiders navigate the system.continued….http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061212/ap_on_go_co/congress_pet_projects&printer=1
WARNING – Change of Subject :)
Anyone have any opinion on the court judgement against the fanatics at the Westboro Baptist Church?
My Opinion -> http://wichitavoice.com
~Dubya
Dubya, don’t read too much into this. All the Court ordered was for the Church to pay costs and fees associated with the service of process once the defendants refused to execute a waiver of service, as provided in the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure.
The litigation has a long way to go before any final judgment is entered.
Tracy- yay?
Tracy: Sen. Robert Byrd — aka “The King of Pork”? It should be interesting to see how many of his “earmarks” get chopped. It’s just too bad the Arena isn’t an “earmark” project.
I agree with you whole-heartedly, Vaughn.
But I still think it’s a step in the right direction. Where does free speech end and privacy begin?
I mean, obviously these people are scum-of-the-Earth, but they have the “right” to say, think and believe whatever they want…or so the saying goes :)
~Dubyahttp://wichitavoice.com
Yea, these idiots obviously know what’s better for their States when they start cutting “earmark” projects like Education, Roads, Bridges…I mean, come on! Why the heck would we spend money on infrastructure??? Our kids don’t need educmacations; our cars don’t need good roads to drive on; our barges (in Oklahoma, specifically) don’t need to worry about bridges collapsing on top of them when they “accidentally” collide…
Giving Congress a raise is an “earmark”, making sure roads and bridges are sound structures is definitely NOT.
~Dubyahttp://wichitavoice.com
Close Gandor Mountain and convert it into an arena. Hell, we paid for the building anyway.
another one bites the dust …
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/12/11/another-evangelical-pastor-resigns-after-being-outed/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.365gay.com%2FNewscon06%2F12%2F121106pastor.htm&frame=true
JWink,
Neither Wal-mart nor arena voters want anything to do with Park City.
That’s why your complaining. Abandonment issues.
Ben,
I haven’t projected a thing about WaterWalk to do what? Finish!
Casino next to WaterWalk in the Library, that’s something almost necessary to help people doing the waterwalk more often.
Fix Lawrence-Dumont, chairbacks for all, new field, dugouts and locker rooms. Better concessions.
West side of the river is under redevelopment review, that’s important to me. So both west and east side between Seneca to Main are important, that part of downtown.
I am for Wichita to improve core facilities and build new one’s we desperately need.
Ice Sports was never a desperately needed place at all. Now we have it, too small for all ice sports that are possible.
It’s a community defeat to have arena football in that building. A joke.
Figure skaters, speed-skating can’t use the facility.
If we’re going to have ice sports, lets make a facility that can do them all. Business idea, not something the city gov should build. It would have to be in another location, downtown.
WaterWalk was projected to have all sorts of private development by now. It has had zero private development. I was at the City Council when this boondoggle was approved.
More fun with GitMo:
Bush’s War Crimes Cover-upThe Supreme Court ordered him to treat detainees as “civilized peoples” do. He refuses.
They are the best-trained, most vicious killers on the face of the earth. —former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, describing the detainees at Guantánamo, with whose interrogation techniques he was personally involved, CNN, March 7, 2006Most of these guys at Guantánamo weren’t fighting us. —former Guantánamo deputy commander General Lucenti, The Washington Post, October 6, 2004
The U.S. military called no witnesses, withheld evidence from detainees . . . as it determined that hundreds of men detained at Guantánamo were “enemy combatants.” —Seton Hall Law School report on Guantánamo, November 12, 2006
more …
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/12/12/bushs-war-crimes-cover-up/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fvillagevoice.com%2Fnews%2F0650%2Chentoff%2C75255%2C2.html&frame=true
2007 is a big year for WaterWalk, let’s just be a little more patient, pace of construction and investment should…pick up.
Last year I was told “2006 is a big year for WaterWalk, let’s just be a little more patient, pace of construction and investment should…pick up.”
Village Voice? Slate? Huffington Report, Democratic Underground?You people like to link tocrap crap crap and crap
Maple/Lewis street bridge is now more at an angle with Waterman than previous designs. That’s going to be awhile.
http://www.wichitawaterwalk.com/main.aspx?itemID=178
Pace hopefully picks up, because WaterWalk is paid for and something is tying up the red tape.
West of the river behind that old lawnmower building, they want put a Condo. The lawnmower building status still hasn’t be fixed. Maybe it will stay there.
It’s different what I’m hoping to do in redelevepmont than using the city FIRST to negiotiate properties. People are legitimately complaining their property isn’t being paid for enough. When its a business discussion with property owners and not a political one, I think they go better.
I’m trying to build stadiums, not a condo or mall. WaterWalk’s condo is on open land east of Ice Sports, not tearing something down to build it. That ugly closed lawn mower building will rot until its taken care of.
In 2007, what’s Waterwalk’s holdup on an open land Condo project?
“Copyright © 2003 WaterWalk LLC”
4 years … still waiting. What will hold it up in 2007? I don’t know. What held it up in 2006? 2005? 2004?
I know full well where the condo proposal is west of the river. I’m still wondering if we will see anything in WaterWalk – which is EAST.
There was supposed to be a big groundbreaking back in August.
The words of WaterWalk sound good; but actions speak louder.
Something interesting … and encouraging …
Solar-Powered Hydrogen GenerationRust-based solar panels could make hydrogen cheap and efficient
http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/12/12/solar-powered-hydrogen-generation/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.technologyreview.com%2Fread_article.aspx%3Fid%3D17887%26ch%3Denergy&frame=true
MRage: I question several of your above remarks.
1) What do you mean, “The Lewis/Maple Street bridge is now at more of an angle than previous designs…” Renovation of that bridge was just completed a couple years ago. Its alignment was not changed.
2) The “ugly closed lawn mower building (on southwest corner of Maple and McLain) will rot ….” I’m told the Wichita City Manager told that business owner the city was going to buy his property, so he closed his business. Later the City reneged and the owner was left without a business. He needs to be compensated by someone.
3) MRage, you said you “are trying to build stadiums, not condos …” What planet are you living on? If you want to build a “privately financed stadium” here in Wichita area, please proceed immediately. Maybe you will save the taxpayers a quarter of billion dollars (more precisely $250,000,000.98) to build the proposed unneeded (no leases or interest by users), white elephant ice hockey arena.
As everyone knows, a few ice hockey fans were really the source of the downtown arena project. They have always felt correctly the ill-designed ICE SPORTS CENTER wasn’t designed for them. But professional ice hockey attendance is way to small to support the new arena, even with the 100% taxpayer subsidy. So they now want to build their own privately financed new arena up north near Park City. MRage, is this your arena project??
4) Regarding Wal-Mart — my thought was to locate a Super Wal-Mart downtown in the footprint proposed for the downtown arena. This would serve both the Kellogg/ Oliver and the 53rd/Meridian locations. The advantages are a downtown Wal-Mart would produce downtown traffic 24 hours a day, bring retail back downtown, and provide spin-off business to “Old Town” 24/7. Perfect solution.
You made several other comments but I couldn’t decipher them.
JWink
Stop your ranting about Wal-Mart, they don’t listen to anybody. They will discuss that new Super Wal-Mart with affected nearby landowners. If you think a big box retailer needs to be downtown, call the corporate office of COSTCO.
I’m looking at the drawing for WaterWalk from that link..is the drawing accurate to what exists on the Maple/Lewis street bridge?
It looks more at an angle bridge to me. Look at angle of the road connecting to Waterman from where the Boathouse is. That’s pretty far and a very curved road if the bridge isn’t re-aligned. Drawing maybe inaccurate and not to scale or actual engineering specs. It’s just a drawing.
The lawn mower building rots, regardless of the city unable to meet the property owner’s price.
He likes a closed business building. Taking a business loss for years write-off?
The city gov allows it. Okay! I don’t care about it. Why is the WaterWalk Condo in that area, delayed, since they announced the idea. Nothing in the way to stop that.
I’m hurrying trying to build the first stadium. The process takes many agreements from a large variety of people, agencies and organizations, contracts to sign, zoning changes. Stadiums don’t sprout overnight.
The stadium assists our downtown arena with an outdoor facility in the same zone. For high school sports, gathering place for concerts and events. County high schools will play downtown.
Football or track in the stadium, basketball, wrestling and volleyball in the downtown arena.
I’m torn on whether the field should convert to a soccer field. I don’t think so.
The stadium for WSU football to playisn’t beginning discussion until after the downtown arena is built.
That demands state bonds to clear land and partnerships with the govs. The County will own land underneath the stadium.
All in the County will be able to vote whether Star Bonds should be used.
But the vote happens after County, City, investors, Chamber of Commerce and labor unions, partnerships have already agreed on the project.
After publicity has already begun nationally, WSU will mean Wichita Shockers University, changed their name and is bringing back football.
Wichita is investing in ourselves will be a big story. Investing more into WSU.
The stadium drawings will be in publications and goals of it, hashed out due to MVC or any other conference affilations. Wichita Shockers Univeristy football with an indenpendent schedule, who are they going to play. Who agrees to play in future games.
As a drawing the facility can start to bid for future events.
I’m not building any ice rink for hockey near Park City. Who that is I don’t know. Private ownership will not work for a hockey rink unless they cover the floor and play basketball. What basketball helps pay for the private facility?
I just said, if the community wants Ice Sports it should have a facilty that does more ice sports, than only a hockey rink. Ice track. Can speed skating interest people here
It would be downtown, relocated.
The hockey rink and seating fits inside a ice track. That’s the kind of facility built in other places. Open ice for figure skaters too inside the oval of an ice track. Long track speed skating. Short track speed skating, inside the hockey rink. Hockey, and figure skating facility.
I’ve not done studies on that business idea. The facilty exists in other states, can it happen here, is there community interest.
Sooo…if someone moved here from somewhere else, they are not entitled to have a positive opinion on this city, JR?
Just exactly what ARE you saying.. that newcomers cannot speak? That we should sit quietly in the corner and let you naysayers continually bash this city?
raptor
Folks are not gonna know what you are talking about.
The post raptor is reacting to in its entirety.
“I note that the “positive believers in Wichita” are almost always people who are not FROM Wichita. Here again that is the case.’
Born and raised here raptor.
So I know what you are up against. It’s called dealing with reality.
Hey it aint me. It’s that old stick in the mud conservative narrow thinking holds Wichita back.
Wichita! Hasn’t changed since the 50’s. Dirty old town then and now.City/County Government, can’t agree on anything, except how to spend your money!They don’t have a thought out plan, on anything. For example: New Arena, (no parking,) Waterwalk, (1 store) Can’t build new arena, because we might destroy historical property. Don’t ya think, these issues should have been addressed, before now?My tax dollars, are going to fund a project, designed by lunatics, promoted by our city leadership, who have no clue, how it will be accomplished. But, they will spend your money, for their own gratification. Doesn’t matter, If you benefit from it, or not!
I noticed that Invista received approximately $1M in forgiveable loans to relocate their HQ here. Interesting that the nation’s largest privately held company would need public financing for their relocation as an incentive; especially, given the Koch’s family well known anti-tax position. Guess it’s just a matter of which hog goes to the through………..
Anyone interested in the state of education today, and, more importantly, what needs to be done to bring it into the 21st century, needs to read the Dec 18th edition of Time magazine.
What it spells out is basically what both myself and Heartlander have been writing about in past education threads. It very clearly explains that children today are global citizens, and need to be brought up and taught as such. They will need language skills encompassing a variety of languages. They will need skills far in excess of what NCLB wants. They will have to be able digest information they receive at a greater rate than they do now, and be able to separate the wheat from the chaff.
The article starts out with Rip Van Winkle waking up in the twenty first century after sleeping for over a hundred years. While everything around him has him stymied, he walks into a classroom and says, ” This is a school. The only difference I see is the chalkboards were black in my day, now they’re green.”
Kind of sums up the state of education in America, doesn’t it.
This is a must read article.
I heard a rumor today that Senator Roberts might be suffering from Alzheimer’s.Anyone else heard this?
You guys can look at Wichita any way you want. Positive or negative, we will always have people on both sides. I however am Positive.
But that’s funny people mention stealing tax payers money for the arena and that it won’t amount to anything or it’s part of the “good ol boy” network of people getting rich off of it.
The citizens of Segwick County voted for it. You naysayers lost! Get over it.
Now! I am a Libertarian, but that isn’t the overwhelming priority of who I am. Political party affiliation maybe all that you are, but it isn’t for me.
My family comes first before anything. Any ideology, project, and government. When it comes to family, none of politics matter.
I’m an American and a Wichitan second. Because I believe in community and freedom. When it comes to any infrastructure project for our community, that be roads, schools, arenas, airport terminals, fire stations, police stations, train rail elevations, public art, public transportation, libraries, parks, musuems and anything else that makes a community I support it wholehartedly. It will always trump my libertarian political affilation.
When it comes to national, state, local politics of policy, however, I’m a full fledge Libertarian.
I’m many things! I’m a real human being that isn’t shortsided and one-deminsional like so many of you radical leftist angry hating CAVE commie people. You guys have to live in despair, hopelessness, anger, rage and a loss of oneself on your own.
But just remember this! There are many more individuals, like myself, who love our community, who enjoy and love life, and who don’t let the day of politics control our minds that there are of you. You are going to have to face the fact that you are not the smartest people in the room and that you are in the super minority. It’s a fact!
People like you don’t drag people like us down!
I sure wish I was as cool as Joe W. The man just has it all together.
J M
I will read your article. But as a parent, I am more inclined to hope and work in the direction that our nation will concentrate on saving itself instead of embracing globalism. I choose to HOPE we will not make our kids live down to the level of the rest of the world.
Joe? You went on quite the diatribe there? Wichita is what it is. Are you by any chance related to Mary Poppins or Barney the dinosaur?
Joe Williams – I just hope you CFSMWs are right with the way you Commies are spending my money. How can you call those of us who prefer private enterprise to government ownership of the means of production Commies. YOU are the Communist; go back and read Das capital. What economic theory calls for government ownership of the means of production?
You tend to become even more irrational than usual when you are throwing a tantrum.
Why does Marshall get a movie, but WSU doesn’t?
“In a time of faith, skepticism is the most intolerable of all insults.”Randolph Bourne
What is it 120 people blown up in Baghdad last two days, at least 59 bodies found? Or was that New York? Maybe Rush will set it straight.
Link to interesting article in light of the Saudi’s announced intent to support the Sunni’s in Iraq:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/12/13/saudi.sunnis/index.html
Once upon a time there was a sort or equilibrium balance as Syria/Iran; Iraq; Saudi Arabia; etc played against one another. Now, since Bush deliberately destroyed that balance, new ‘arrangements’ will form. I had been thinking in terms of a likely Syria-Iran alliance spreading across the region. Now it looks like Wahabi/alQuada (Saudi Arabia) will get a boost.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
Ben, I fear your analysis will prove to be spot on; it is my thought the most dangerous part thereof is the Wahabi/al Qaeda ‘alliance’.
I heard our leader is coming up with the Kemo Sabe/Charlie Brown counter-defense. ??
“I heard our leader is coming up with the Kemo Sabe/Charlie Brown counter-defense. ??”
Nahhh , , , the bart simpson defense: “I didn’t do it . . . nobody saw me do it.”
Well, it’s not only poor Hispanics looking to better their life who are “illegal aliens”; two professional baseball players are included:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/12/13/bc.bbo.playersmuggling.ap/index.html?cnn=yes
>Why does Marshall get a movie, but WSU doesn’t?
RD,
Wichita State doesn’t roll off the tongue like Marshall. People today ask what is a Wichita State, still.
WSU played 9th ranked Arkansas couple of weeks after the plane crash. Got beat 62-0. Head coach was killed in the crash, assistant coach injured, took over from then on. What was it like for those players and playing against them. Pretty sad. They should have stopped playing that season.
1970 to 1986. Late 70’s hiring Willie Jefferies, first black Division 1 college football coach. Hiring Gene Stephenson to restart baseball and Gene Smithson for basketball.
WSU was being hammered by NCAA for a long time in football recruiting violations. Didn’t win enough to publicy overcome those embarressments.
WSU was in the Missouri Valley Football Conference and it failed. Scheduling got worse.
WSU’s administration quit and didn’t ask the community to do it.
It was the only Division 1 college in the 80’s to do that. Maybe they felt NCAA sanctions wouldn’t be as bad, if they cut the program.
WSU didn’t have Oklahoma and Nebraska fans saving them like they did at K-State. KSU counted those fans filling their stadium often enough. More than half filled when they played KU. The Big 8 Conference was much better for football than the Missouri Valley.
Bill Parcells, Dallas Cowboys coach could do the voice over of the movie retelling the tales. He was player at WSU and assistant coach in the 60’s.
Wichita Shockers University football is still a plan, could be a story in the future decades from now.
Some characters don’t want football back and overcoming them will be “drama”.
Marshall gets a movie because recent players are in the NFL and gave publicity to their football program. Legacy from then to now.
People should also know Marshall’s plane crash was weeks after WSU’s plane crash.
But everybody died in a larger plane from Marshall. 75 people.
25 died in WSU plane crash, 14 players, coach and staff. They were using two planes.
Mrage, has it occurred to you that the difference in the legacies of Marshall’s program and WSU’s program, both beset by the tragedy of plane crashes, etc. can be explained by the different paths the two schools took after the crashes? This is all from my memory, BTW.
First: WSU determined it would remain at Division 1-A for football; Marshall determined it would change its conference affiliation and drop to Division 1-AA;
Two: WSU’s decision to remain at Division 1-A resulted in mediocre (at best) teams, a loss in attendance over time, hell, over a season the home crowd would dwindle substantially; Marshall also struggled in the early years, but were more competitive, having dropped down to 1-AA;
Three: The losses to the WSU atheltic budget resulting from attempting to maintain football at the 1-A level threatened the existence of all athletic programs at WSU; Marshall, although struggling, had smaller losses to overcome;
Four: WSU, after determining it could no longer sustain the losses, dropped football; Marshall, considering its losses, considered dropping football, but decided to continue on for another season or two, when, as it happened, success began; I believe in both cases the time frame is in the 1980s.
Fifth: WSU is, by and large, a commuter campus, with no captive audience for campus events; Marshall is a residential campus, with such an audience. This, perhaps, is the most important factor, one which continues today, and frankly, the one which IMO, argues against football ever coming back at WSU.
While the stories are analogous, IMO there will never be a movie made about WSU’s football program, as it was a FAILURE; Marshall’s, on the other hand, became a success because of the steps taken, at the peril of those making the decisions which, IIRC, were not enthusiatically greeted by the alums, et al when the same were made. I suspect, but do not know as I wasn’t present in Wichita at the time, that if the WSU administration had made the same choices as did Marshall, the firestorm of criticism that would have erupted because of those steps would have ensured the earlier failure of football at WSU.
Vaughn,
Regardless of Conference affliation, IA or IAA, football costs can’t be different. Success in wins might be. Was travel cut down for Marshall to play more IAA teams closer by? Did a conference support them?
WSU’s Missouri Valley football conference failed! WSU had NCAA problems in basketball, fines and lawsuits adding to costs. WSU was under threat of “Death Penalty” by the NCAA shut down football and still have to pay for it. SMU got that punishment 1987. WSU quit in 1986.
You argue the return of football at WSU has to do with it’s commuter definition.
WSU does need more apartments and dorms built near the campus for increased students. Does the contract go to apartment builders or WSU wants dorms, they own.
Food service matters in that discussion. Students get food on their own, in an apartment. Dorms need a cafeteria.
I do care where the WSU stadium will be, can’t say it publicly today. When the public realizes where we are building the stadium, more people will understand goal of it.
Getting more of Wichita near or on the WSU campus is the goal.
If we’re there, then Wichita is defined who we are. Everybody isn’t a “fan” of Boeing or Spirit or any job.
But majority can be fans of the Shockers. I’m arguing the name means everything too.
When the community can say WE ARE SHOCKERS more proudly, WSU means Wichita Shockers University.
It’s a community decesion to bring football back first, WSU determines cost and personnel of administrating the program. All the new programs necessary for football to return. Increased girls scholarships.
This is the reverse from WSU cancelling football without asking.
The process pays to make WSU better in a lot of ways, so they will be thankful!
The community will be investing more in the football program than WSU taking funds from other places in their budget to pay for the program.
This community gets a well designed and unique in this four state area facility for other events, year round.
WSU, renamed, becomes a University more proud. More on the level with so many Division 1 colleges around us.
Stadium people have asked repeatedly, its odd Wichita has doesn’t something to help WSU bring back football. This community has to. We lack other natural resources to enjoy. If we had a beach or mountains, maybe not bring football back.
Since we don’t and new stadium designs are fantastic places, why not have one here. Just a place to go together and make noise, entertaining ourselves. Better to invite other colleges to Wichita, we have only seen on TV. Go play them, anywhere.
Working……
Assesing temperature in hell.
Temperature well above freezing. Temperature constant.
Conclusion: WSU will not resurrect football program. Stadium construction not necessary.
End of line
mrae – got a timetable for your stadium? Investors?
Hey Rhonda !!!! What’s $1.6 million between friends ????
Ben,
You see the arena schedule increasing, whenever that’s finished. No hurry necessary is key. Everybody has time to fix their finances now and then budget investment over years of construction.
Investors aren’t hard to find, its a decesion whether they buy in or not. Stadium investors, be them persons, corporations or advertisers exist everywhere.
Can this stadium make money, has to answered. I believe it can. My group will risk same amount as everyone else. I need time to raise that investment capital.Time is on my side.
So, since the over-budget Arena is 8 monts delayed we might look for an announcement sometime after 2010?
Do you anticipate this to be a capitalist venture or a Communist one?
Who says the arena will be delayed. Anytime someone put investment capital into the arena, time to build will be moved up.
No one is leaping to put money into the downtown arena fast, but that doesn’t mean they won’t. County has to get the land bought soon as possible.
When investors put 90% in and County gets land for their investment dollars. City gets a facility they can promote or events turn their eye toward Wichita, that’s worth money.
Capitalism all the way around.
The good thing about this area, prices for tickets will be reasonable and parking is free.I’m a consumer first.
“Who says the arena will be delayed.”
“Arena price tag up $16.5 million, opening pushed backThe downtown Wichita arena will cost $16.5 million more than originally projected and will open in fall 2009, about eight months later than expected, assistant county manager Ron Holt told Sedgwick County commissioners today.
The arena’s total budget is now $201 million, up from the original $184.5 million, he said.”
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/breaking_news/16231062.htm
Note: cost up; DELAYED.
“No one is leaping to put money into the downtown arena fast, but that doesn’t mean they won’t. County has to get the land bought soon as possible.
When investors put 90% in and County gets land for their investment dollars. City gets a facility they can promote or events turn their eye toward Wichita, that’s worth money.
Capitalism all the way around.”
No, the Arena is being built with tax money. “Government ownership of the means of production” Straight out of Das Kapital
Someone finds a nutty reason to put $25 Million into the arena, still delayed?
When advertisers see more viablity sooner than later, they begin contract negiotiations fast as possible. When the managing company starts to work, it means investment dollars.
Now that some investment money is necessary to pay for the arena, your fear of Communism shrinks.
I guess its communist to build other things, using tax dollars alone. Airport, roads, pipes and water treatment.
Community activity center like the arena is necessary. Every community has one, city this size.
What $25 million? What investment money? The only thing I have seen is tax money.
Basic infrastructure does not constitute “means of production”; Arena, Gander Mountain, Waterwalk all do.
Ben,
Business will not confer with you, if and when they invest in the arena.
Forget the Coliseum, how it was constructed, today is new day how investments are shared. County has started to build the arena, doesn’t mean every tax dollar will pay for it completely.
The tax isn’t going to increase. Your not out any more money. No matter a delay announcement today.
“if and when they invest” – will they confer with ANYONE?
“how investments are shared” – what shared? tax money only
“doesn’t mean every tax dollar will pay for it completely” – I’ll believe different when I see it.
I deal in facts, not rosy suppositions. All I have seen in these things is tax money. And I see that you are already hedging your bets that the Arena is too small.
If there are going to be investors I would surely welcome them. But, I don’t see them.
By the way, I don’t believe in the tooth fairy either.
Ben,
Believe in your community. Some will benefit how the County acts in the future, they will assist a County project today.
It is a failure if business allows the County alone to build the arena.
The process hasn’t been smooth at all, is the problem. For the people who know regional arena considerations, the County shouldn’t have tied the number of seats to the tax vote.
Then design the arena that maybe not as competitive for events.
The Sprint Center in KC is wanting to do more things. It’s size for museum space is not competitive with our arena. But the number of seats should have been the same.
But we can’t stop with that many seats or be stuck only with arena events long term in this community.
We need stadium events as well. New stadium designs can do arena duty when it requires.
How about a benchmark? When should I expect to pick up the eagle and read about investors putting money into your arena or stadium? Don’t tell me “sometime in the bye and bye” but give me something to look for. You have a wonderful vision butseem sadly lacking in specifics. So, when nothing happens you will just say, yet again, “soon”. Just like all the supposed ground-breaking dates for the Waterwalk.
And if the size of this thing dooms it to failure then somebody better intervene. But, that will not happen. That is MY prediction.
I don’t control the Eagle. Any fool plan can make their front page. Remember that rail trail company all of sudden wanting a light rail, prior to the 17th rail tracks picked up. They had light rail trains schematics all drawn up.
Dave Bayouth’s over the river arena drawing.
Next year, I’m working on a stadium for high school sports. You’ll hear about that.
WSU changing name to Wichita Shockers University maybe the first announcement. Reason to change name of the University will be known.
That can be worked on beginning next year. I don’t see WSU changing their name until 2008.
How to bring back WSU football will be announced.
We just can’t start the discussion to build that stadium until the downtown arena is finished.
I don’t want the County to delay building the arena at all.
Those will be announced during 2007? I want something concrete.
“Next year, I’m working on a stadium for high school sports. You’ll hear about that.”
So, in 2007 I will hear about the stadium.
Wichita Shockers University? Now THAT is dumb. Do you see Cornhusker U? Kansas Wildcats U? In fact, can you name ANY such naming?
“I don’t want the County to delay building the arena at all.” Guess what – don’t matter. They are going to delay it; they are going to overrun the costs. And, based on your figuring, it will be too small.
“How to bring back WSU football will be announced.” We shall see. I will look for my proposal on how to do it toorrow and post it – again.
MRage: You mentioned the arena or maybe your proposed “stadium” will serve as a “community activity center.” I think you are confusing the downtown ice hockey arena with a convention type center. They are two far different creatures.
Sedgwick County should have considered a convention center type of facility RATHER than a larger ice rink type of facility which is what the downtown arena will be. And it should have been near Century II and the Arkansas River … with international bowling capabilities.
Frankly this is Kansas — ice sports just are not very popular here.
Unfortunately the current Ice Sports building at Maple and Sycamore was designed wrong. It should have provided double the seating on one of its two ice sheets. I believe now it furnishes about 800 seats on the south side of the north ice sheet. Doubling that would have approached 2,000 seats which would provide a fairly good ticket total for medium size ice skating events.
Incidentally, the ICE SPORTS facility will present ice shows this weekend featuring local ice skating talent. I can’t relate the times but I believe the shows are scheduled for both Friday and Saturday evenings. Should be worth attending.
JWink – I saw a notice about the show too. In fact, I recall ticket prices reasonable with a discount with a can of food.
MRage: Please explain your track record of building the type of stadium you are planning? And where do you plan to build it?
As you are probably finding out as you pursue this project, requirements include a successful track record, knowledge of the field you are getting into, and plenty of pocket money to attract investors and, more importantly, lenders who will ultimately finance your project.
Incidentally, I did voice my continued objections to the WHITE ELEPHANT, ALBATROSS, UNNEEDED $250,000,000.93 DOWNTOWN ICE HOCKEY ARENA — this evening to the southern Kansas legislative delegation that is preparing for the upcoming 2007 Kansas Legislative Session.
Ben,
What does Wichita State mean..short for Wichita’s State University? People ask that still across the country.
The same state that’s not paying for maintenance on buildings.
Kansas Jayhawks are the same description for KU.
Wichita Shockers will be the same description for WSU.
Kansas State is properly titled. KSU Wildcats good for them.
I don’t expect President Beggs to say no by himself, it will be vote among all at WSU.
Troy St. became Troy.
Wichita Shockers University fits. Logo change, few more letters in the script.
More indentifiable placement. Chamber of Commerce should like it.
You don’t like change that well.
WSU has had a few titles and current Wichita State is all its ever going to be.
Future WSU will be improved, thus the better name.
Business won’t allow the arena to be delayed, believe me.
When some company invests in the arena, you’ll probably read about it.
Hiring people who design and build stadiums are key JWink.
I have no track record in stadium construction. All anyone cares about is financing the stadiums. What’s our financial position. Banks know.
Your not “qualified” to know exactly where any stadium I’m considering will be. Your not a property owner in the area. Your not a city representative. Your not on the zoning board.
You have to wait and wonder.
San Jose State University
Fresno State University (not Fresno Bulldogs University)
San Diego State university
Wayne State University
Troy State is in a city troy
University of Southern California is not called Troy or Trojan University
“I’ll probably read about it” – or NOT. Care to project a time frame?
“Business won’t allow the arena to be delayed, believe me.” Wanna bet?
“Your not a property owner in the area.” Are you sure? I AM a property owner in the City.
“You have to wait and wonder.” – yea right. But don’t hold your breath. Waiting for Godot.
Last summer I was given a date for a major groundbreaking at WaterWalk. August. Well?
Sorry mrage, track record ain’t too good.
“You don’t like change that well.”
WRONG! I love change – when it is change for the better. I am NOT a “suck-in-the-mud” Wichita native who has never seen anything different. I am NOT a native Wichitan; however I have lived here for 2 decades. I compare things to other cities I know – LA, Boston, Chicago, NYC, Atlanta, and many others. (That is why I could unreservedly praise our zoo and Music Theater). I wish an Arena proposal had been done correctly; I would be all for it. Unfortunately it was not; therefore I do not support it.
Ft Hays Gorilla University?
Ben,
Troy State is in the city of Troy.
Where is WSU. All those “state” schools could choose to drop it.
WSU is Wichita Shockers University.
Every student enrolled is a Shocker. College is full of Shockers.
Shockers are people. WU Shock isn’t anything but a character.
What’s a Shocker, won’t be a question any longer.
New York Knickbockers are the New York Knicks…what’s a Knick? A better title that New Yorker’s love.
No “State” at all.
It’s coming off.
We all have WaterWalk as an example to not begin a project and go very slow.
I’m not going to announce where my stadium ideas will be. That info will come out in due time.
Speculating about real property can be a problem. Property owners will get mailings or knocks on the door.
The name change ain’t gonna happen. No way. I’ll put engraved pictures of dead presidents on it.
UCLA are the Bruins but it isn’t Bruin University. My old alma mater MIT is the Beavers but it ain’t Beaver Institute of Technology. Dream on, it ain’t happening, it is DUMB.
As for “That info will come out in due time.” I’m not holding my breath.
I notice you still like to say “it’ll happen in the bye and bye” rather than setting any measurable performance benchmarks. That way, in the year 2058 you can still say “soon”.
I would suggest that having a success to point to would be a great asset. The Arena needs to be that success. Good luck with that …
Dead Presidents will influence WSU.
No one calls MIT, the Beavers. Everyone recognizes only MIT.
People wonder where Wichita State is and what Shockers represented by WU-Shock are.
Those are real questions nationally.
Wichita Shockers University says cleary the University is in Wichita. College full of Shockers, the students and staff.
My benchmark to make that happen is summer of 2008. I can begin the personal discussions with many in and out WSU next month. I’ve already leaked the desired name to some on WSU staff.
Every Democracy has a vote. Let WSU vote on it. If a PH.D could predict every outcome you would be in Vegas.
Hey Mrage?
You SEEM to present yourself as some sort of influential person or decision maker.
IF that is the case? It is no wonder this town is so fucked up! Cause deal is, and I aint the first to say so, I think you are not playing with a full deck.
Go build your castles in the air with idiot Joe Williams. Let Wichita die its deserved death.
JR,
Wichita is how you like it right now, because I haven’t been involved.
I can’t improve what you do, any kind of stadium or arena, not your place to gather.
Who can be sane with folks who deny progress when stagnant reality is hitting them in the face.
Labor day, 2008. The name will still be Wichita State University.
Don’t be talkin’ bad about Gander Mountain!!! It is the gun totin’ man’s Wal-mart…or so my hubby says. And no, I haven’t been able to make him a liberal like me. But that’s ok, all his offspring are except for that blindspot they got from him about being in the military. And no I don’t hate soldiers, just the “war.”
I gather GM has a good gun selection. However in other ‘outdoors’ areas I am not impressed. Other stores – capita;ist ones – have better prices.
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