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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Dec. 26, 2006 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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44 Comments
Too fast on immigration:
Are we moving too fast in the wrong direction on immigration? The new democratic controlled congress is proposing a guest worker program that would legalize millions of undocumented workers currently in the US.
My biggest concern is this does nothing to address the issue of wage suppression. I have been told repeatedly that “American” workers will not do the jobs that illegal workers will do. Primarily these are jobs in agriculture, meatpacking, construction, housekeeping, and other unskilled labor. In general one could say those jobs which are dirty, difficult physically dangerous, or menial.
At the current wage rates for those workers that probably is true. However, those wage rates were established by hiring workers who are coming from economies where earning $6.00 an hour is a whole lot better than earning $6.00 per day. Had those wages been determined by competing for “American” workers, those rates would have been adjusted upwards to account for the difficult, dangerous, and otherwise nastiness of the work.
If we now take an approach of legalizing those workers who drove down those rates, there is no pressure to increase the rate of pay to offset the disadvantages to those jobs. That labor pool stays in place, the profits of the employer continue to increase, and nothing improves other than we now have a legal pool of workers to keep labor rates suppressed.
Globalization of our economy has had its advantages to be sure. However, we have lost hundreds of thousands if not millions of good paying manufacturing, technical and, engineering jobs to cheaper labor pools in third world countries. This trend is a contributing factor to a shrinking middle class and has served to widen the income gap between the rich and poor.
Concurrently, we are driving down wages for service work and labor by importing “illegal” unskilled labor. The net effect is to create a pincer effect that erodes labor rates from the bottom up while reducing the demand for skilled workers from the top down. No wonder we see such a hostile backlash from the middle class towards our immigrant neighbors from the south.
All this begs the question of what do we do to rationalize a broken immigration policy? I for one believe we need to continue to pressure employers, through strict enforcement of labor laws, to own up to their responsibility to compete fairly for legal labor. I also believe we need to aggressively identify those who are here without proper work visas and deport them. After a period of time to allow the labor market to adjust, both in wages to attract “American” workers and in prices for those goods that are now being subsidized by an artificial lid on pay and benefits, we streamline the process for legal immigration and the issuance of work visas.
It is too easy to play the finger pointing game and attempt to spin a fix that does nothing to improve the plight of working Americans. What is needed is a commitment to address the problem from both ends of the political spectrum. Strict enforcement of current laws and recognition that there are plenty of Americans who will gladly step in to those jobs when the economic forces are allowed to function without artificial subsidies is what is needed.
at this point, I’m not really thrilled about the dem plan, but it’s something. If it’ll stop all the new people crossing the border everyday, I say do it.
I saw on CNN the other day a story about a New York or New Jersey school board that had just been overtaken by the Jewish, and the Christians were having an absolute fit. Their ’story’ is that they’re worried that the public school monies will be diverted into the private schools where most of the upper class Jewish attend.
But I don’t think that’s really legitimate, since funding should be pretty much set. One of the people interviewed said something about ‘how would you feel if a bunch of other religious groups came and took over your town school.
Now that says it all right there doesn’t it? So when the minority shoe is on the your own foot, suddenly Christians are crying foul over the Jewish traditions taking precedence?
See, I’ve used this kind of example to say why ALL religion should be kept out of public schools, and tada! Here it is playing out in real life.
Until he government puts some teeth into enforcing laws against hiring undocumented workers, ANY attempt at controlling illegal immigration will fail.
The only reason that illegals come to this country is jobs, jobs that are not available in their home countries.
Slap-on-the-wrist fines are not sufficient. When the government starts putting business owners and officers in jail for illegal hiring practices, the problem will start to be solved.
Some will excuse the hiring practices, blaming the issue on illegals, but any decent company goes through the process of confirming the legality of any new hire.
It is only by addressing the source of the problem that a solution can be found.
I fully agree that going after the employer is the only viable option. But, having said that, where is the line drawn? Hypothetical: An employer hires an individual contingent upon citizenship or “legal status”. The individual provides a birth certificate, SS card, DL, documents certifying natualization or legal status (where necessary); in short, everything required to reasonably conclude that all is in proper order. There’s just one problem. The document of foundation, i.e., the birth certificate, is a forgery. All the other documents are legitimate — except they’re not, obviously.
The employer has conducted due diligence documenting the worker, yet he has still hired an illegal, and, as I understand, will have committed a criminal offense, and is subject to prosecution, in a hostile, emotionally charged environment.
How do we protect the honest employer who is not a perpatrator, but a victim?
And worse, employers afraid to hire hispanic looking workers who are actually legal.
Well assuming we really WANTED to solve the problem…
Don’t just use the teeth that are in the law now. Put FANGS in the law.
If an employer is found to be using illegal labor? Jail the propreitors, sieze the entire company and all its assets. If the company is doing sub contract work for another company? Then take the enforcement upstream and give them the same treatment.
We either solve this problem or we lose our middle class. It is that simple.
PMom correctly points out the chilling unintended effect of major crack downs on employers.
As I’ve pointed out before, if this was a simple problem, it would have been solved long ago.
Both P Mom and RM have very good points and those obstacles will have to be overcome, but something has to be done at the source of the problem.
Illegal immigration is merely the symptom – the problem is the lack of opportunity in the home countries and the employers in the US that take advantage of cheap labor.
Until the “job market” for illegal immigrants dries up, the problem will continue to exist regardless of fences, deportation and INS raids.
That’s not going to happen until we make the employers scared to death to hire illegals.
J R,We are losing our middle class due to elitist class warfare, not illegal immigrants.
Steven
I agree with who the aggressor IS.
But cheap labor is their ammunition.
We need to make US companies scared to death to employ illegals.
We also need to review and reform our trade status with ALL nations.
Like I said, we do this, or we lose our middle class.
Having worked with and been around both legal Mexican workers and illegals for over 40 years, I am telling you folks that the ONLY way to curb the influx of immigrant workers is to make it economically unsound to hire these folks. Period. End of story. How that is to be done would be up to all those smart fellas out there. One problem though, they are some of the folks that are makiing money, openly or otherwise, off of our brothers and sisters from the south.
It was easy to spot the Illegal Alien Mexican Nationals when I lived in San Antonio, TX.
First, they didn’t speak the local dialect (that means Spanish, not English.)
Secondly, ask them for car insurance if they drove to the interview, chances are they didn’t have any. At least ask them where they got their car insurance and how much their liability is.
Ask them for their Social Security card. The ones for U.S. Citizens are different than the ones they issue immigrants.
If they are in the U.S. legally, they will have a green card or an equivalent.
Ask them about their past employment and wait till the past employers send you something. If you don’t get anything, it is either fake or the past employers knew they were illegal aliens.
Do a background check to include federal arrests and convictions. If they don’t seem to have any because of aliases, you didn’t do a good job on the above suggestions. Someone incarceratred at the Laredo Federal facility has a pretty high chance of being illegal. :)
Sure, a few will slip by, but I assure you once the word gets out how closely your company checks background and scrutinizes its prospective employees the word will get around quickly you are not to be trifled with.
Interesting editorial Rhonda about jobs in western Kansas.
Yes, jobs are needed here, but someone needs to question what kind of jobs producing what kinds of goods and services. “jobs” dont exist on an island. The kind of jobs and the wages and people needed for the jobs are interconnected.
The number one reason companies dont locate or create jobs out here? Not enough people to fill them. Hays is whining ’cause they have HUNDREDS of jobs they cant fill. Why? Well, ask yourself. Would you want to live in Hays? heheheheheheh
Is western Kansas just going to be a dumping ground for lead smelters, coal plants, ethanol plants and packing plants? A place where the unskilled and unwashed can always find a job?
A place where dirty work that serves you is done, out of sight and out of mind?
Ship all the environmentally dirty work out here (’cause ya know, we need the jobs) and keep the clean, high wage, high skill jobs in eastern Kansas?
And then close the schools and hospitals out here because they cost too much for the taxpayers to support?
Who the hell is gonna live out here in these $5000 houses and take all these dirty jobs you all are throwing at us like crumbs from the masters table?
Welcome to the new third world of Western Kansas. You think we can “out low cost” China? India? Indonesia? heheheheheh. If that is what you want to make of western Kansas, just remember what was said about iraq.
You break it, you own it. You wont be able to bring back the lost water or fix the environmental damage very easily. Just be prepared to pay the bill on the back end as well as the front end.
You remember the back end, dontcha? The one that’s left when all the money, water, and people have been sucked out by out of town and out of state companies? When they, and the money and the water are gone, you all in eastern kansas will STILL own the mess.
But then when you do it (’cause no real people live out here anyway) dont bitch about the damage done to the state, what it costs to run our schools, and how you all have to “hit the ball and drag the west. Hit the ball and drag the west. Hit the ball….
Well, you get the idea.
Are you in the east, particularly in Salina and Wichita, going to be ok with all the water being used out here and not reaching you because, well, we need the jobs? Those jobs arent just keeping us down on the farm. They are using water that runs YOUR direction.
But then, western kansas needs the jobs.
Schools and government offices and hospitals provide many more jobs than ethanol and coal ever will. Yet people in the east bitch about what it costs THEM to keep these institutions open out here? And you throw us temporary construction jobs and packing plant jobs as a bone?
And please, dont start in about those “construction” jobs that MOSTLY go to out of area companies and workers and illegal immigrants. We know temporary jobs when we see them.
Would it be ok if we just started up a bunch of state sponsored buggy whip factories (’cause ya know, we need the jobs)? They’d sure use less water….
Alternative energy may be the wave of the future for good, high skill, high wage jobs, but the funny thing is…
…most of the good, high skill, high wage jobs that go along with all these dirty industries dont ever quite make it out here. I notice they mostly stay in the cities.
Where the quality of life, schools, hospitals, government services, real estate, etc. make them an attractive choice for places to live.
You cant just create jobs and expect people to flock here or stay here to take them. You have to look at wages, skills, housing, education, and, most importantly, quality of life.
And a great quality of life STARTS with sufficient supplies of clean water, water based recreation, clean air to breathe, decent and affordable housing, and quality schools and health care.
The towns in the west need to make themselves “attractive choices” as places to live. Otherwise?
Welcome to the new third world.
Dont you feel better about your state now too?
heheheheheheheheheh
Guess I better go to work. Hit the ball, drag western kansas. Hit the ball, drag western kansas…..
Another thought about wind farms
http://www.kansasprairie.net/blog1/blogindex.htm
ksfg, good posts; when I read Rhonda’s editorial, I had many thoughts which echo what you posted today at 10:58 am. The issues surrounding the wind farms are equally real, especially those concerning decommissioning and removal.
In an effort to reduce Blog spam, the Beagle has, of course, overdone it and now, if they suspect you might be a robot (?), you have to decipher a six digit alpha-numeric hidden in distortion. For those of us who are visually impaired in the first place this is very disconcerting, and I suspect, a dicriminatory act in A.D.A. violation. While the purpose may be valid, the method is not satisfactory. And they’re going to make me do it again to post this!
I have noted the spam reduction exercise only happens when I have included a link in my post; the almost indecipherable alpha-numeric string also causes me some difficulties as well.
WE Blog goes offline, for good, in March of 2009.
As long as the standard of living is so much better here than there, we aren’t going to stop immigration, legal or otherwise, and a serious attempt to would bankrupt us, in both human and economic terms.If stopping immigration is the goal, there are only two ways to go; either we find ways to increase the standard of living there (wherever they’re coming from at the moment), or we cut our own! Walls have been tried (cold war Soviet Bloc), and as draconian as they were, people got through it!If stopping illegal immigration only is the objective, why not simply reduce the paperwork, time and monetary barriers to legal immigration to a realistic level. In the age of computers, that should be easily possible. We would have the same number of immigrants, but they would be legal, background checked and much less exploitable by employers, landlords and other criminals.
Guys, try refreshing before posting a new post when you’ve just posted one. It helps a little.
Hey Seer…let’s see some valuable predictions. Provide the winning lotto numbers…
Just read where Kline will get a hearing tomorrow in front of Judge Clark as to reinstatement of the Tiller charges. Is this Kline’s last hurrah or a political ploy to build his base for another run at election in 2008?
If Kline really did find evidence of child abuse/rape then why doesn’t he file charges against those involved in the specific cases and not just Tiller?
The price of gold bullion will obtain the historic high of US $1600 an ounce by mid 2008.
From what I understand there have been no charges stemming from failure to report.
It’s all about late term abortions.
I thought there were a few charges of failing to report in that group of 30. Maybe I was mistaken. But in those 30 charges there were abortions for several minor girls; so I would hope that charges will be brought in those cases because any 10-yr old girl who is pregnant; obviously there would be many questions as to whether that was just her experimenting with sex?
Interesting development here. But I still think this is Kline’s politically grandstanding and nothing else.
So-called “global warming” revealed to be globalist elitist fraud, a plot to control the masses in 2010.
Seer, you are getting quite boring.
The REAL “seer” Van Rensburg died in 1926.
Call Ghostbusters!
Correct me if I”m wrong, but wasn’t the failure to report- the failure to report to the KDHE, not the police?
PMom: Yes, I think the KDHE is the agency responsible for taking those reports. However, in reality, I suppose it could have been reported to the WPD or the SCCO, and the report would have found its way to the appropriate agency. In the case, for example, of the 10 year old, if it is not another of Phillkline’s fantasies, there would be a question of jurisdiction. In other words, where did the offense happen — Sedgwick County, Johnson County, or Timbuktoo? Who knows?
The Mighty Ducks of Anaheim will win the hockey Stanley Cup in 2007.
I predict that Seer is a troll who delights in annoying people.
Wait, that’s already been proven true . . . too late.
The Mighty Ducks of Anaheim will win the hockey Stanley Cup in 2007.
Huhuhuhuuhu!Yeah, when pigs fly
rm, if it’s failure to report by age, I don’t think that it’s to the KDHE, if you look at the charges in Kline’s filing, the failures to report were of all ages, even those older than 18. There would have been no reason to report that.
“What I know to be unquestionably true, did not come through the senses.”
Rene DescartesMeditations
While perusing through the other Kansas.com blogs I came to the conclusion that they all suck ass.
Gerald Ford is dead.
His Presidency was but a footnote to the crimes of Republicans.
I BET a HUGE deal is made of his funeral. Pomp and circumstances to distract.
Junior,Even the death of a statesman cannot temper your hate for America.
*shock*
JR,Of course, they’ll make a big deal of it because Ford is a former President. Your partisan bickering is not helping America or Americans in the least, and like it or not, Republicans ARE Americans! You will need to work with them to meet the challenges we face as a nation.
Ford was a statesman?
LOL
ROTFLMAO!
I don’t hate America goof. I hate you.
Oh and “Will” or CrusaderX or whoever you are today?
I don’t have to work with such as goofnuts. Check the last election!
My favorite Ford joke?
From “Airplane”
“He’s unconscious, but alive.”
“Just like Gerald Ford.”
Ford did do some good things during his presidency: 94-142 comes to mind. But to call him a “statesman” is a just a bit of a streeeeeeeeeeeeeetch…