Now the U.S. Department of Interior’s Fish and Wildlife Service is raising questions about the environmental impact of the Holcomb coal-fired plant in western Kansas, citing a possible air pollution threat to the Wichita Mountains federal wilderness area in southwestern Oklahoma. More evidence that, whether Gov. Kathleen Sebelius likes it or not, this is becoming a national issue.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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107 Comments
Sounds like Sunflower may have met the “letter of the law” in their EIS, but forgot (conveniently) to consider if the Wichita Mountain federal wilderness area might be impacted; or, more alarmingly, understood it would be, and conciously refrained from pursuing it. KDHE appears to bear at least some responsibility for not informing Interior; again, while the 65 mile “custom” is nice, still makes me wonder if the not informing was truly an act of omission or of comission.
Looks like the Eagle or a least Randy Schofield is on a crusade to stop the power plants from being built. This makes little or no sense. The Wichita Mountains F.W.A. are about 250 miles south and a little east of Holcomb. Do I need to remind anybody that the prevailing wind in Kansas is southerly? This just sounds like more stupid roadblocks set up by big government that do nothing to enhance the enviornment.
By the way, have you seen that this years list of most politically incorrect words has been released by a group called “Global Language Monitor” a non profit group that studies word usage? In second place on this years list is “Global Warming Denier”, for someone who believes that climate change has moved from scientific theory to dogma.
“There are now proposals that ‘global warming deniers’ be treated the same as ‘Holocaust deniers: professional ostracism, belittlement, ridicule and, even, jail.”
This is real folks, and this is why the left is so dangerous. They cannot tolerate anyone who questions their sacred beliefs.
Chris, don’t be such a weenie, huh?
I have to take some offense, Tracy, I cooked a few weenies on the grill last week – they were really good.
Can’t say the same for Chris….
WSC, you musta’ not had the ones made with chicken lips and ears.They not so good.
Chris – this “leftie” would never advocate jailing Holocaust deniers; even though I grew up during a time when they wanted to jail God deniers. I believe in freedom of speech; even when that speech is pure bullsh*t.
Yeah, I went for the Nathan’s……
Looks like Chris cannot find any credible, peer-reviewed science disproving that humans are causing GW — so she rants about intolerance.
Them damn chicken lips are GREASY.
I also would not jail tose who say the earth is flat.
Chris – can you show us one of those “proposals” to jail you? Sorry but I believe that about as much as I do the one about jailing me for attending Midnight Mass Christmas Eve.
Will they be serving “chicken-lips weenies to those jailed as either holocaust or global warming deniers on Christmas day? perspiring minds want to know!
;^) Good one; I like mine with saurkraut!
dusty, Naww…They get the buffallo balls burrito.Double HA
Has the need for this plant even been demonstrated?
We WASTE far too much energy already. Teach the citizenry the proper respect for conservation and the need for energy would decline dramatically.
“KDHE appears to bear at least some responsibility for not informing Interior; again, while the 65 mile “custom” is nice, still makes me wonder if the not informing was truly an act of omission or of comission.”
It is an act of “COMMISSION”! The KDHE has helped the City of Wichita skirt Environmental Cleanup regulations on multiple ocassions. But I see no rabble raised over that.
For instance, The Gilbert and Mosley and Northern Commercial Corridor are both sites that were supposed to be on the SUPERFUND NPL. They were both deleted from the NPL by the crooked Dr. Hammerschmidt. This came about because the City of Wichita agreed to TAKE FINANCIAL RESPOSITBILITY for the cleanup AND were given the right to pass A Tax Incremental Financing (TIF) district under State of Kansas Law. The City of Wichita built the “WaterCenter” which is BS for $22 million! Fine if Wichitans want to pay for that crap, but WHY then is the City of Wichita petitioning the KDHE for funding IN THESE SITES that they took financial responsibility for?? I can find one payment for the Gilbert and Mosley Site for $80K. There are hundreds of payouts to the City of Wichita under the Brownfields program in these 2 deleted sites.
That denies and robs cleanup funding from the rest of the state cleanup sites. It is also an indication of the level of corruption and taxpayer waste in the KDHE and the City of Wichita. There is a site for example in Salina at the Old Schilling Field. TCE at 800,000 PPB. That is almost 10%! What is the pollutant in the 2 Wichita Sites? TCE. What is the concentratin? Significantly less around 10,000 ppb.
See the problem in Kansas yet. Vast amounts of agency corruption and waste. Did you think that this happens in a vacuum and that no one in a Kansas State agency or a City Govenrmental Office would committe crimesw like this?
800,000 ppb = 800 ppm = 0.8 ppt = 0.08%
Not even close.
Actually there were very good reasons to keep GM off the NPL. Unfortunately the final implementation of the agreements by the City was not carried out correctly. In particular, Coleman should have paid a much larger share of the cost.
Disclaimer: I was involved in that project as an unpaid advisor to the City. Some recommendations were used; some not.
Hey cosmos, are you a natural born idiot, or is it something you have to work at? Peer review is nothing but a bunch of Barbara Striesand. Science should never be about getting a concensus, it should be about facts. A bunch of scientists voting does not make it a fact.
The talk of jail for global warming deniers is currently in Europe where holocaust denial has been a jailable offense for sometime. It may never make it to these shores but there is no denying that professional ostracism, ridicule, and belittlement are happening here and now. You will have to excuse me for not differenciating between the left in this country and the international left, since they are usually in total lockstep with each other.
Chris<—–works for big oil:(
Thats right popup, attack the messenger not the message. Oh thats right, I forgot, you are not capable of that.
“You will have to excuse me for not differenciating between the left in this country and the international left, since they are usually in total lockstep with each other.”Chris, there seems to be a lot of things we have to excuse you for, like being a moron, being totally uninformed, and just being a general butt-hole.If brains were dynamite, you couldn’t blow your nose.
“Thats right popup, attack the messenger not the message”
Chris, that is what you have been doing, accusing us of having a “leftist Godless agenda.” I sill want to know what is Godless about wanting to be good stewards of God’s creation?
And no, peer review is not consensus; it is the ability to defend one’s work. I know; been there done that.
Chris,
Consensus IS about the “facts”, not “voting”.
J R,
“Has the need for this plant even been demonstrated?”
NOPE,
http://kansas.sierraclub.org/Wind/WRA-PressRelease.pdf“Much of Tri-State’s growth plans are speculative at best. In fact, according to its own projections, Tri-State will have 1,200 megawatts more in total power obligations than it needs simply to meet member co-ops’ energy demands, yet it is not saying for what. In all, the 2,100 megawatts it plans to build will result in capacity exceeding total power obligations by a whopping 1,600 MW.”—Ratepayers are going to be very unhappy if the plants are built — efficiency and renewables will be cheaper, especially if coal gets a federal carbon tax.
Looks like an attempt to build more than needed, ASAP, before the public can know the facts?
I have read articles denying that man even went to the moon. I guess that means we never did since that non-reviewed stuff is more important than all the material we have saying that we DID go there.
After all, we know those pictures from “space” are fake – they show a globe and we know the earth is flat.
Sorry Ben, it was 800,000 PPM. Yes the plan was good, but the CIty of Wichita should have stopped going to KDHE and EPA for funding if they wanted to follow the plan. As for spending $22 million on that monstrosity instead of spending the money on cleanup, well that is up to the taxpayers of Wichita. OIf they want a tribute to somebody’s ego then fine, just stop fleecing the rest of the State.
Whether Coleman paid, the City took responsibility there to get the money from the defendants and polluters. That would NOT have happened if left in the capable hands of EPA. An EPA study show that every time this process has been implemented by a city, the cleanup goes south and is never finished.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Disclaimer: I was involved in that project as an unpaid advisor to the City.”
Good Lord Ben, there are a lot fo “unpaid advisors”. LOL. that is you get what you pay for. I do not work for free, nor do I show up at mettings and bitch alot. I work smater than that.
The minute that the plan was not followed it was supposed to be rolled back into the NPL.
THAT is what Wichita is NOW looking at as EPA is now reviewing all the SUPERFUND processes in Kansas because of another boo boo that KDHE did.
Why the paper does not investigate this I’ll never know. Some Kansas Department of Health and Environment guys and City of WIchita people need to be in Jail.
“In fact, according to its own projections, Tri-State will have 1,200 megawatts more in total power obligations than it needs simply to meet member co-ops’ energy demands, yet it is not saying for what.”
Has anybody considered that they just might be building to meet future needs? Sounds like pretty good planning to me.We can talk all we want to about conservation and alternate sources, but we need more power and we need it now.
ASBESTOS – it IS 800,000 ppb; I am familiar with the site. And, had the City enforced the agreement with Coleman there would have been little public money involved.
I had mixed feelings about the whole thing; a lot of my environmentalist friends questioned my judgment. I still think I was right – IF the City had followed through with collecting money from the PRPs.
With unpaid volunteer professionals you often get a lot – I have done this with the City and also with DoD. I do this as a citizen and can give an unbiased viewpoint in that I have no direct involvement (except as a taxpayer of course) I usually avoid working for free but will make an exception when I consider it appropriate as I did in this case.
You just don’t know what to do with me do you? Your just not used to having somebody get in your face and point out that your emperors new clothes are pretty threadbare.
And as to the so called “persuecution” you say I’m crying about that was more an attempt at humor than anything else. When you complain about a “Godless political agenda” and other phrases I’ve used, I’m talking about the left in general. If you are personally offended, I must be hitting pretty close to home.
When you call me ignorant, stupid, weenie, and all the other names you have for me, I wear that as a badge of honor. Since that seems to be the label of choice for all conservatives like Ronald Reagan, Rush, etc. who have been kicking your butt for years.
No Chris, you are not hitting close to home at all. You are simply displaying your ignorance. And yes, we DO what to do with you – the same thing as those who deny the lunar landing or that the earth is a (semi)sphere. We scoff at your idiocy.
The only problem is that science-haters, like those who deny the link between AIDS and HIV, can cause damage. So, if you are proud to be ignorant and to refuse to even read the scientific literature, fine. Hopefully more people will come to realize that scientific truth is more important that ignorant Luddite dogma – no matter how “Godly” the robes it is draped in.
Lmao so Chris since finding God, has suddenly been told the secrets of the world.
Lordy be.
Kicking our butts? Is that what you call what’s going on right now with Bush’s- what- 13% approval rating? ROFLMAO. Yes, I’m convinced, God makes people delusional. And Rush is such a fine example of Godliness huh?
“You just don’t know what to do with me do you?”
Placing you in a small padded cell jumps to mind.
Can we get warning labels on Bibles now?
Caution: this product can cause the following symptoms in some people: delusions, ego inflation, suicide, homicide, …
“ASBESTOS – it IS 800,000 ppb; I am familiar with the site. And, had the City enforced the agreement with Coleman there would have been little public money involved.”
Un NO BEN, the site with 8000,000 PPM is the Shilling site in Salina. NOT in wichita. There are only a few places with 800,000 ppb in Wichita G&M site according to KDHE contaminate plume maps.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
The other thing as working as a “unpaid volunteer” is that you do not have to have any qualifications. I have spent over 2 decades in this career field. Haven’t worked for free yet. And those that are looking for quality, do NOT look to unpaid volunteers, they have no vested interest, such as having huge claims against their E and O insurance, and taking on sombody else’s liability. That is the flaw in you acting as an altruistic outsider, you aren’t! Giving an unbiased information? Professionals give the information and analysis, they do not do anything to take on the liability. That has been the problem in Kansas and these environmental issues. We have too many “unpaid volunteers” running around such as you pretending to being “experts” and having no protection with your opinions such as the professional insurances that our colleagues carry. You are seeking ego gratifications on the cheap and robing those professionals in our field.
You need to shut up until you are paid, insured, and qualified. If more people did that a lot of our environmental provlems in Kansas would be solved first time through.
Additionally, Cities have jsut as much BIAS as a company like Coleman. WIchita is screwed on these sites. They will take about 3 decades to clean them up as the City is now doing. Had they followed CERCLA, it woudl be done in 10 years. It took the City of Wichita 10 years just to do the damn RF/IS!!!!
ASBESTOS – I do have the qualifications and also work professionally in the field. I am also familiar with the Salina site – I doubt that the concentration of TCE could be that high since it would vastly exceed the solubility limit. Check it out; I think you will find it is 800,000 ppb. As I recall, the hot spot in GM was about 40,000.
The technical advisory committees for both the City’s GM site and for McConnell AFB are made up of professionals with the requisite qualifications.
Pretending? PhD Chemistry; BS Geology; MS Environmental Science; Certified Hazardous Material Manager; Licensed Geologist; Registered Environmental Professionsl. No ASESTOS, not pretending. Nor were the other members of the group including WSU faculty.
ASS-bestos, you just walked into the fan and it’s name is Ben Huie.
How does it feel to get your butt handed to you?
Thanks WSC.
http://www.saljournal.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=8647&format=html
Oh now I see. SO it is almost 10% so uyou were wrong first! I originally stated that, and you said it was wrong, going on memory I restated saying it was 800 PPM. BUT it WAS almost 10% See the link? So I quess YOU were not even close.
You are an acedemic. That is why you work for free. YOu can have alot of letters after your name, it does not guarntee intelligence or good judgement. What you ueually get is someone like you, arrogant. “See look at me, I have all these letters n’ stuff.”
Wrong again Ben!
He got his ass handed back to him!
Hey B.H., can we keep it in the realm of reality. I do not deny the Earth is round, the HIV/AIDS link, The moon landing, or any of the other ridiculous things you want to dream up. However, I’ll bet you deny the abortion/ breast cancer link don’t you? And thats as much a fact as any of the above mentioned ones.
“The technical advisory committees for both the City’s GM site and for McConnell AFB are made up of professionals with the requisite qualifications.”
Then why is the City of Wichita screwing up the cleanup, and fleecing the State of Kansas cleanup funds? Why does the rest of the state have to pay because a bunch of your screwup colleagues screwed the pooch with these 2 sites, and want the state and the nation to continue paying for your screwups? You after all have a professional qualifications. HOw come you are not liable when you are wrong or screw up?
And what are your credentials, ‘Bestos?
Unless you can come up with something better, I will go with Dr. Huie’s opinions.
And Wichita ignores asbestos regulations on demolitions and renovations as well. Yeah that is EXCELLENT leadership in environmental stewardship and environmental professionalism!
When I think of the peak of Environmental Professionalism I usually think of the City of Wichita, KDHE, and WSU …. NOT!!!
“Unless you can come up with something better, I will go with Dr. Huie’s opinions.”
That is why you are an idiot there WSClark. Only an idiot would use a failed General’s name as a moniker.
In the nation, Wichita is not known as a “Leader” in the Environmental Professionalism. FAR FAR from it!
For Chris………..
Scientific research does not support a link between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer later in life, researchers at a National Cancer Institute concluded at the end of a special workshop on Feb. 26, 2003. Participants concluded that studies that claimed a connection between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer were “flawed.” Larger better-designed studies indicate NO link.
Where is your unbiased proof?
“800,000 parts per billion of TCE — almost a 10 percent solution. The maximum concentration allowed in drinking water is 5 ppb.”
Parts per Billion. My math above holds:
800,000 ppb = 800 ppm = 0.8 ppt = 0.08%
I’m sorry the newspaper cannot do first grade arithmetic. Is the salina Journal lying when they say parts per billion?
No screwups on the part of the professionals. Our recommendations are of record. We gave them to the City. Where they did not follow them is not professional malpractice.
If my doctor gives me instructions and I do not follow them he is not doing malpractice. That is how it works.
“That is why you are an idiot there WSClark. Only an idiot would use a failed General’s name as a moniker.”
I was illegally placed for adoption when I was six years old.
My legal name is now William Stephenson Clark, as it was over fifty years ago. That is what is on my birth certificate.
Got a problem with that?
“And Wichita ignores asbestos regulations on demolitions and renovations as well”
On that you may well be correct. I have not been involved in their asbestos stuff. I also have not been involved in GM since years ago when they diverted from what we advised.
Chris: “However, I’ll bet you deny the abortion/ breast cancer link don’t you?” You lose your bet. I haven’t researched that issue so I neither deny nor confirm.
screw + ball = Chris from Mac Town.
By the way ASBESTOS; I am NOT an academic. You are wrong yet again.
I will ask again….
“And what are your credentials, ‘Bestos?”
Got any?
There is no link between abortion and breast cancer except in the minds of anti-abortion nuts- they’re the only ones you’ll hear this from.
The theory behind this is that when an abortion happens, it halts the hormones and somehow causes breast tissue to proliferate (which happens when pregnant, so that doesn’t make sense at all.)
But the same thing happens with miscarriages…and approximately 50% of fertilized eggs end up being naturally miscarried anyway, many before the mother realizes she’s pregnant.
Unless there is a new theory, like God gives women who had abortions breast cancer, because they say so.
“Where they did not follow them is not professional malpractice.
If my doctor gives me instructions and I do not follow them he is not doing malpractice. That is how it works.”
You may have a PhD, but you just compared apples to oranges. The individual has choices.
The City however, MUST follow the polan or the sites revert to the NPL listing under CERCLA. WHY KDHE or EPA REgion 7 has not revoked the G&M and the NOrthern Industrial Corridor is beyond me. They violated a legal precedent and CERCLA. Usually those that violate CERCLA and promise to clean up and follow the rules, and choose not to are in jail. A real professional like yourslef should know that! I mean, DUHH! First year professional stuff.
I do not post or “boast” of my credential on the net. It is my choice. AND none of your business. Anyone with an ounce of experience knows whom I am and what my qualifications are.
You just get pissy with me on any post there WSClark simply because you don’t like my POV. Fine. But you are ALWAYS the first to go to personal attacks when you are loosing an argument.
You are simply clueless on most issues you ramble on about.
And if it reverts to NPL so be it. And yes, I know that. That is why I keep records of my advice. I am not one who would be found to have violated CERCLA. DUHH! Have you ever advised a client to do “X” and had him not do “X”? You cannot force him to follow advice.
Let me know when you get it NPL listed – I doubt that it will happen.
“But you are ALWAYS the first to go to personal attacks when you are loosing an argument.”
Well, I haven’t lost an argument on this blog yet, so the personal attack issue is moot.
Besides, YOU attack me for using my name as a nic – WTF?
And, by the way – it would be LOSING an argument, not LOOSING.
Work on that, will you please.
The frustrating thing about the GM site is that we put together a very good plan in my opinion. Had it been followed rigorously we would be a lot further along toward completion. Also, the cost to the City would have been much less – only the orphan sites. Unfortunately, they chose not to move as quickly to implementation as they should have. And, they did not go after Coleman as they should have.
ASBESTOS – do you have a problem with my arithmetic 800,000 ppb = 0.08%? Care to run the numbers for us?
MY original point (which you missed Ben because you have a need to stroke your own ego) was that The City of Wichita spent $22 million on “WaterCenter”, of which the majority went to a “museum” for groundwater cleanup, instead of the cleanup itself. A testiment to ego saying “look here what we are doing!” Environmental bling!
And yet the City of WIchita has the gall to go back to KDHE for every little thing at these sites, robbing the rest of the state of Kansas Cleanup funds.
NOW that was the topic. ANd Benny boy made it about him and how smart he was and how “unbiased he is”. You are SICK and unbalanced. I was the one worried about waste, you OTOH wanted to aggrandise yourself and your incredibly large ego. What a looser!
If you knew about these shortcomings by the city, ANY professional organization requires you to report wrong doing under their “Code of ethics”.You didn’t do that did you?
“What a looser!”
For God’s sake, ‘Bestos, try a little Spell Check….
ASBESTOS – I was referring solely to the original decision to do a city lead. It was a good idea at the time. That is what I stated. Hammerschmidt signing off on it was not crooked. It was legitimate.
As for what has happened since I left the project I don’t know that it is as extreme as you claim. The “Center” is a bit of ‘bling’ as you say; the main cost of it, however, was required for its function.
I acknowledged my potential ‘conflict’; you then chose to jump at that. So, I responded.
Still waiting for your arithmetic on 800,000 PPB
“Also, the cost to the City would have been much less – only the orphan sites.”
NOPE, they are responsible for ALL environmental impacts in that NPL site listing under the CERCLA wavier. Orphan sites, and any other LUST sites, and Drycleaners, etc. ALL of it! That is in the agreement.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“ASBESTOS – do you have a problem with my arithmetic 800,000 ppb = 0.08%? Care to run the numbers for us?”
No your math is right, but your need to be correct overshadows the real issue here, that is:
Wichita is taking up too much of the money it should not be for clean up costs, and that takes up the money from the Schilling site. DO you get that yet???
OK you can do math. But your analytical capabilities, application of the law, judgement, and mental stability are not very good.
You short circuit a thread to feed your own ego. Pathetic!
Consensus IS about the “facts”, not “voting”.
Consensus from Webster’s Dictionary: 1. Collective opinion. 2. General accord.
Opinion is not facts.
Punctuation, ‘Bestos, punctuation.
Try it, you might like it.
“Hammerschmidt signing off on it was not crooked. It was legitimate.”
DUH, he had to sign it, you doofus, he is the Director of the KDHE. He does have a responsibility to overturn it or to enforce fully the agreement and make sure all the issues of the agreement are being met, otherwise, he MUST RELIST it under the NPL as per the agreement. Yes that is crooked, or limp dicked.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“The “Center” is a bit of ‘bling’ as you say; the main cost of it, however, was required for its function.”
NO it was not, it was for a museum and fountians and a damn big fish tank. The city would have been done if they just got a bunch of off the shelf air strippers small ones, and put a truckoload of them all over and chased the plume downstream.
The venturii they purchased were obsolete the minute they were produced. A HUGE facility is not as efficienbt on a large dilute plume as multiple smaller air strippers. Plus they simply discharge the water to the Ark river instead of finding a use for it.
NO there are a lot of problems with these two sites, adn as time goes by, it will beome painfully clear.
2. General accord.
ASBETOS – do you have a copy of the agreement with KDHE and Coleman? The one that says Coleman will pay their part? That says the City can subgrogate against other sources? I kept one.
But you are correct that the City has been remiss in collecting that to which they are entitled.
Thank you for acknowledging that you were wrong on the Salina site concentration.
He dod not have to sign it doofus – he could have rejected it.
I had wanted to see better reuse of the water; probably in the Hyatt fountain. Problem is, as we saw with the “dump water” issue; there is a huge public perception problem.
BTW, for the record, I was NOT involved in the Brooks thing.
Short circuit it? It was YOU who raised Gilbert/Mosley.
That CFMT appears to be headed for CrusaderX territory, with his compulsive need for abasement and public humiliation.
Sounds like a cry for help.
Maybe we should start a support group for CFMT, ASS-bestos and Golf Nut.
You know, as a public service thing – help the disadvantaged.
If the DOE director did not sign it it would not be valid. He has to insure that it is done and YES he has to sign it. That is what the agreement was about, the state taking over the federal responsibility under an agreement by a muncipality. (Are you sure you were involved with this?) They did the same thing with the SFAAP. However that is under investigatin by the EPA OIG.
Here are most of the documents I can find:
http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/15692047.htm
http://kensas.kdhe.state.ks.us/pls/certop/Iop?id=C208700175
18684 Federal Register / Vol. 61, No. 83 / Monday, April 29, 1996 / Rules and Regulations
ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
40 CFR Part 300[FRL-5463-9]
“National Oil and Hazardous Substances Contingency Plan; National Priorities List Update
AGENCY: Environmental Protection Agency.ACTION: Notice of deletion of a site from the National Priorities List.”
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/ks.htm
http://www.usmayors.org/uscm/best_practices/bp_volume_4/ks-wichi.htm
I LIKE THIS ONE:
http://www.infozine.com/news/stories/op/storiesView/sid/3808?day=2004-11-01
HOw terrible that KDHE does their SUPERFUND, with the $809K payment to the City of WIchita
http://envinfo.com/October2004/OIG-9-01-04.pdf#search=‘Kansas%20NPL%20SUPERFUND’
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/npl/nar1335.htm
THIS is brownfield dollars lobbyed by the City of Wichita for these sites:
http://www.house.gov/transportation/water/03-15-01/brown.html
I know quite a bit more about this than the average bear, even if he happens to have a phd.
WSClark said:
“You know, as a public service thing – help the disadvantaged.”
Giving you a lobotomy would probably help YOU the disadvantaged.
“cheaper sites are more likely to be cleaned up” DUHH! And more expensive sites less likely; also more likely to have numerous people and groups getting involved.
The whole idea of City lead was to reduce the number on intervenors.
“If the DOE director did not sign it it would not be valid.” (I assume you mean KDHE – too much alphabet soup) If he felt it was improper he would have refused and sent it back.
I’ll give you this, ‘Bestos, you’re tenacious like a pit bull – ugly, dim-witted, anti-social, attacking with no reason and unwilling to let go against all odds.
That seems to describe you fairly well.
By the way, since I am so stupid, according to you, what ARE your credentials to debate Dr. Huie?
PS – I don’t need a lobotomy since I am already IQ impaired……
According to you…..
“I’ll give you this, ‘Bestos, you’re tenacious like a pit bull – ugly, dim-witted, anti-social, attacking with no reason and unwilling to let go against all odds.”
Just gonna let that slide …..
“Just gonna let that slide …..”
No, ‘Bestos, don’t let it slide. You insulted me for using my legal name as my nic, so bring it on.
Pit Bull.
The water center is a wonderful facility! The city spent a little extra and made something nice. What is your problem with that asbestos? Or do you just enjoy kvetching?
“The whole idea of City lead was to reduce the number on intervenors.”
Un no it was not. (Do you read any of these links?) It was for the following as stated on Mr. Brown’s testimoney to the congress promoting this method of CITY/STATE lead.
1. The Impact on Wichita. When a preliminary Superfund site investigation was initiated in the Gilbert & Mosley area which is located in the downtown area of Wichita in 1989, several immediate problems occurred:• 1,400 acres, including downtown and residential areas, were within the area affected by contaminated groundwater.• Local banks discontinued lending operations in the area.• Several urban development projects in their late stages were blocked, and both business and residential property transactions came to a stop.• Businesses began to leave the area, taking jobs away from the urban core.• Property values were threatened by the stigma of the Superfund status and the accompanying restraint on property transactions. A study by the City Finance Office projected a rapid loss in tax revenues.• Most experts believed it would be 10 to 20 years, or longer, before these negative impacts could be reversed, if the area became a National Priorities List (NPL) site.
IT WAS ABOUT PROPERTY VALUE LOSS and effect ON ECONOMY! DOllars over health effect plain and simple.
“The results were dramatic. Over 4,100 Certificates of Release have been issued, the Remedial Investigation/Feasibility Study is complete and Remedial Action will soon be under way. Property values in the area have rebounded, businesses have expanded, and new businesses have located in the site, adding more jobs in the urban area. In recognition of these accomplishments, the Ford Foundation and Kennedy School of Government recognized Wichita as one of their 1992 award winners for “Innovations in State and Local Government.””
What a whacked out bunch of losers came up with this?
“The water center is a wonderful facility! The city spent a little extra and made something nice.”
Fine you want something nice, OK, but YOU PAY for it. Do not take the clean up money from the rest of the state. Additionally cleanup sites should leave NOTHING there. THe money should be spent on the GROUNDWATER CLEANUP, not a fountian, not a “waterwalk” not a “museum”, and not a damn big fish tank. It should have been spent on air strippers, pumps, wells, and piping. That is after all what is doing the cleanup!
Again, if that is what the taxpayers of the City of Wichita want to payu for FINE!, JUst don’t ask for more cleanup money at these sites! You want ‘em you got ‘em. DOn;t bitch about it now, and DO NOT STEAL OTHER COMMUNITIES CLEANUP MONEY!!!
Repost………
Asbestos?
By the way, since I am so stupid, according to you, what ARE your credentials to debate Dr. Huie?
After posting all that Clarkie, you just got senate testimony, EPA docments, and the City agreement, and all the history of this site and the NPL listing and policy of KEHE.
All Dr. Huie beluie said was that he was smart.
I READ, ANALYZED, and APPLIED official documents. ALl Dr. Huie beluie said was “I am qualified, trust me.”
It the put up or shut up world I won that round. Additionaly, what do you think it takes as far as qualifications to FIND those documents, read and analyze them. Dr. Huie bveluie did not read a damn thing!
Qualifications come from “quality” and I have shown that in the Environmental Profession and Applied Environmental Law, I “got it”.
Whether you choose to accept that is your problem … not mine!
“By the way, since I am so stupid, according to you, what ARE your credentials to debate Dr. Huie?”
What are your credentials to question mine? or debate me? See the circular argument you use as a “debating skill”. Not very good and transparent as hell.
“Additionally cleanup sites should leave NOTHING there. THe money should be spent on the GROUNDWATER CLEANUP, not a fountian, not a “waterwalk” not a “museum”, and not a damn big fish tank. It should have been spent on air strippers, pumps, wells, and piping. That is after all what is doing the cleanup”
Uh huh. That is eminently practical.
It’s also boring and does nothing to involve, educate, or give anyone a reason to care about clean water. The water center does that.
You still managed to worm your way out of the question there, ‘Bestos.
“By the way, since I am so stupid, according to you, what ARE your credentials to debate Dr. Huie?”
Now, you can make fun of his name (which is pretty lame, by the way) and you can claim “quality” over “qualifications” but you still haven’t come up with your credentials.
Now, when I go to the doctor to get my heart checked, I don’t let just anyone mess around with it. I want a REAL doctor.
So when it comes to environmental issues, I’ll listen to the expert long before I will take the advise of a pretender.
So, Asbestos, since you claim that anyone with an ounce of (whatever) knows you and your qualifications, why don’t you let the rest of us in on it?
Back in the early 90s such sites almost always ended up in interminable litigation. The north site (29th/Mead) was so embroiled. That is why the decsion was made. The City executed an agreement with Coleman where coleman would pay their full amount including areas where their plume overlapped others. Since then EPA has gotten much better; however we were looking at the facts as they were then.
Yes, property values were a major factor; in fact that was the whole idea of the “reverse” TIF. Holding values up would then hold locally-generated tax revenues up. That was then earmarked to pay the City’s share. It was a good idea.
However, problems followed, that is true. In aprticular, the City moved too slowly to get containment/cleanup under way and they didn’t sufficiently enforce the Coleman agreement. That is what led to the increased costs and, more importantly, the increased City share.
Remember, we were looking at the EPA of the late 80s and early 90s when these things just got stuck. Since then things have changed dramatically.
Would I do it exactly as it was done? NO, not if I were making the decisions. Would I do it that way 15 years later? NO, the world has changed. But, will it revert to NPL? I highly doubt it.
By the way, I also rad the documents. As for cleaning to ZERO – don’t we wish! Groundwater (and more importantly aquifers) don’t work that way.
Asbestos, I never claimed the mantle of environmental expert as you have. I deferred my opinion on the subject to a man that I respect and that has the credentials to back it up.
You, on the other hand, steadfastly refuse to offer up any basis for the respect that you claim to deserve.
So, put up or shut up.
“By the way, I also rad the documents. As for cleaning to ZERO – don’t we wish! Groundwater (and more importantly aquifers) don’t work that way.”
Good lord! Where id d that come from?We don’t clean up to ZERO anywhere. That is the lame issue that The City of WIchita stated too.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“It’s also boring and does nothing to involve, educate, or give anyone a reason to care about clean water. The water center does that.”
Well groundwater is boring pumps running, that’s it. What you are saying it the water cleanup is irrelevant to you as you want an education center, and don’t worry so much about clean water.What a rube!
++++++++
Actually EPA has gotten worse. THey have allowed States to carve up CERCLA cites up into multiple “Waste Units and clean it under RCRC CA, which is not as comprehensive. SUch as the SFAAP. They carved an former DOD ordinance facility of 9,000 acres up into 30 solid waste management units to apply RCRA. Can’t clean up a Federal Site up with RCRA and carving it up is intentional circumvention. It must be done under CERCLA, and it cannot be transferred until all cleanup is done. However KDHE and EPA Region 7 want to transfer it now contamintion and all to a developer.
That is what is under EPA Office of Inspector General Investigation.
Damn, Asbestos, where did you learn to write?
SHUT UP WSCLARK, all you are doing is bitching. SOrry if I don’t measure up to your erronous standard. I don’t KNow whom you or Dr. Huie Beluie is, but I do know bluster and BS when I see it, and so DO THE READERS of the BLOGS. And both of you have had your assess handed to you. Both of you are arrogant, and think you are correct on everything.
I post OFFICIAL documents, and Dr. Dumbass doesn’t read them and makes a stupid comment, and only an egotistical one at that.
All you can do is the mental equal to “HuH UNH!” Good argument not. You both are full of bullshit and do not know the first thing you are talking about. As for Dr. Hui Beluie, He has “unzipped his fly” more than a few times professionally and made an ass out of himself with some of his comments on this thread. If you cannot find those, well you have the problem not me.
Remember I started this by AGREEING with vaughn on:”KDHE with an act of omission or of comission.”
I stated that this was done previously before with Wichita and corruption, and you and Dr. Hui Beluie both blew on about how grand you were, and I WAS TALKING ABOUT CORRUPTION and “KDHE with an act of omission or of comission.”, as you guys got so wrapped in your egos …. you forgot!
What a couple of dumbasses!
“What a couple of dumbasses!”
So who are you, Asbestos, and what are your credentials?
Won’t answer will you?
If you know your stuff, you would be PROUD to offer up your credentials like the good DOCTOR Huie.
And don’t tell me to shut up, Asbestos…..
As I said to YOU, put up or shut up.
Arrogance?
Thy name is Asbestos!
If water clean up were not important to me I would not be commenting!
A featureless purifier does NOTHING to FURHTER the cause of clean water other than the function of performing the cleaning. A water center maybe gets people familiar and interested in the issue. That=more funding and MORE tools for the clean up.
Ever hear of PR?
Climb off your high horse fella. I may not have letters after my name or be some big shot official. But I DO happen to be a member of the public that pays for this stuff. I don’t imagine your high handed self aggrandizement does much but turn people off to anything you speak on!
Obviously NONE of you read anything of what I posted, and are idiots. WSCLARK and Dr. Huie Beluie are regulars here that always give me hell no matter what I post. As for accuracy and topical, no they are not.
JR, if there are some reporter that start checking these things out as well as those things that are about to happen in the legislature looking into the funding of the WIchita Environmental Projects by KDHE this year, you would change your tune.
I have posting to them, not to you guys, as I have been using your argument as a platform to illustrate th them what is really going on here.
S
Repost, number two…..
So who are you, Asbestos, and what are your credentials?
Won’t answer will you?
If you know your stuff, you would be PROUD to offer up your credentials like the good DOCTOR Huie.
And don’t tell me to shut up, Asbestos…..
As I said to YOU, put up or shut up.
UP yours WSClark, …up yours. You are of no consequence.
“UP yours WSClark, …up yours. You are of no consequence.”
Yes, but what are your credentials?
Really, shouldn’t you be PROUD of your credentials?
Come on, Asbestos, no pride?
Ben’s a doctor? Of what?
“Ben’s a doctor? Of what?”
From Ben…..
PhD Chemistry; BS Geology; MS Environmental Science; Certified Hazardous Material Manager; Licensed Geologist; Registered Environmental Professions
It’s a little late to appeal to me after calling me a rube, asbestos.
Chris, p-mom – on the possible abortion/breast cancer link. I have seen a couple of references to this but have not researched it as the issue is not high on my list. As I understand it there might be a protective effect of a woman getting pregnant and carrying to term. In fact, if memory serves me (which it might not at my age) a woman who has never been pregnant has a higher risk than a mother. I vaguely recall looking at Nuns as part of this. (Plaese note – this was a long time ago! ;^)) So, it is not totally unreasonable that there might be such a correlation.
The issue could, in fact, be twofold: having a child protective vs celibate and, even more intriguing, the possibility that a woman’s body ‘gearing up’ to give birth but then having it cut short being bad and causal. If this is the case I would guess that late-term is especially bad. I would also expect miscarriage to have the same effect.
Note – this is all speculation on my part.
Chris, if you have some sources I would be interested in reading them. Since I might not hit this now very long thread again (heading to bed and a long day tomorrow) if you could link something to an ‘open’ or other thread I will read it.
SOB – once in a while I offer to perform surgery real cheap … after all I am a doctor …
No one seems to want to take up my offer!
;^)
Yeah, the whole ‘Ben Huie Cut-Rate Mohel Franchise’ thing never really got off the ground. Can’t imagine why.
Mohel? Translation please?
;^)
The Mohel is the person tasked with the Jewish ritual of brit–or, circumcision.
http://www.mohel.net/home/home.jsp
Not exactly the time to skimp on expenses.
Ouch! Reminds me of an old tax joke:
A Rabbi was being audited by a very nasty IRS auditor. “And the candle drippings, what do you do with them?” “We return them to the factory and periodically they send us a free candle; all duly noted in our books.” “And the crumbs from the matzo?” “Same thing, we collect them and send them to the baker. Periodically he sends us a free case of Matzo, duly noted.” “And all the foreskins … ?”
“Well, we collect those too. We send them to the IRS and they send us a really big prick like you!”
hee hee hee…chuckle chuckle